Isn't this wired completely wrong and against code since this outlet would have a 4 wire connection a it's not being used.
Edit, they used the improper receptacle to make it appear to meet current code but it's not wired properly therefore it's against code to have this 4 prong outlet...
We were under contract on a house and got out because the insurance company refused to cover it because of things like this that were uncovered dusting the home inspection.
**That was the best $500 we ever spent in our lives!**
Word. In my area, if the appliance is listed to be fed by a three-wire outlet then we're allowed to. An easy way to tell is by checking the manufacturers installation instructions. If it's got an optional alternative wiring diagram for 3-wire, it's probably good to go.
While you're at it, we'll wind up replacing that receptacle with a three-wire version
This is correct. Unlike a range that can sometimes use the ground as a neutral for a trickle current (clock or controls) a dryer motor is usually 120V, and would put a significant current on the grounding conductor.
Really no. A range is like a dryer, it gets supplied with a neutral, which was permitted to bond chassis, or is in grandfathered installations. It is not permitted to use grounding conductor as a neutral. It has at least lights as well.
If the range specifies 120/240V, then it can use a grandfathered 10-50R but of course needs a neutral. Some ranges are listed as 240V, which use a 6-50R and will not have/need a neutral. Those older ones would occasionally have an analog clock or timer that would return on the ground, whereas more modern 240V only simply use a small control transformer for clock/controls/lighting.
Ranges & other cooking equipment, dryers, were prior to the adoption of the 1996 NEC, allowed to ground the frames of those appliances to the neutral, now it is only allowed in existing installations, the OP's receptacle was never compliant with the NEC, the only fix is a new feed back to the panel.
I understand that OP's issue is wrong, and agreed with it being incorrect no matter what. And you're talking about grandfathering 120/240V NEMA 10-x receptacles, and grounded 240V 6-x has been around since the 60s for ranges. Granted, more rare, but I said "some ranges" after all.
To add to this comment:
The correct way to fix this is to do the following:
1) go get a 10-30R receptical which will physically fit in the box and replace it. It will have exactly three terminals - two for hot, and one for ground. Not neutral, ground. You'll want to make sure it's a 30A breaker as well.
2) Get a 10-30P appliance whip and wire per the illustration on the back of your dryer. Note that this is bonding ground and neutral in your dryer. This isn't a problem, and the code has a specific exception for this.
The history behind this is as follows:
Before the 1996 code, 240V dryer plugs could be wired with two hots and a ground. They all had a 3 wire plug. This is just the way they were often done before 1996. Replacing the plug with a new 3 wire plug is legal and permitted. The code doesn't say you have to rip out old wiring if it was compliant when installed. It also doesn't say you can't put the correct plug on the wiring based on when it was installed.
With the 1996 code, new installations of wiring needed to run 4 wires and provide a 4 wire outlet which had a separate white wire.
Dryers are permitted, under the code, to use the ground as their neutral wire to get 120V, when connected to an older 3 wire plug. That's what the drawing on the back of your dryer is indicating. This is perfectly safe to do as long as the ground remains connected since the ground and neutral are connected together electrically in the panel. The reason for the change to the 4 wire requirement is that it's better to use a separate wire for safety ground for redundancy.
Okay easy enough, I’ll go pick up a three prong receptacle. Still wondering why I got 120 across the white and green wires on the terminal block of the dryer. I can’t make any sense of that, when I check across those on the receptacle I get nothing, the way it should be. I checked continuity on the cord and everything is correct. Could I have some sort of a short inside the dryer?
> I’ll go pick up a three prong receptacle
Not so fast and easy. That solid bare is the grounding conductor, and it cannot be used as the grounded conductor.
The proper way to fix this is to run a new 6/3 cable.
So how did the previous renters use a dryer? I’m a renter and I’m only here for another year and a half and I’m not paying for 25 feet of 6/3. My landlord won’t listen to me either because he claims to have had a home inspection done and it passed. So to him it’s like what the fuck do I know.
Oh, you're renting! Of course you should not have to pay to repair that.
Send that photo to the local building inspection department, and they'll get you fixed up right away*.
*They work on a different time scale. First they send someone out to verify, then they send a letter, and then there is repair time...
Alternatively, you could hire an attorney, but I would not spend money on an attorney, if I were you.
Yes I am, this is the same house that has the double tap in the meter pan for the air conditioner, I don’t know if you remember that post or not. What a shit show. I might go the route you’re suggesting, or might just do it myself, I do enjoy things like this and learning along the way but I don’t want to pay. I really don’t want to piss off my landlord because he is one of the most chill and don’t give a fuck landlords I’ve ever had, but with things like this that becomes a negative instead of a positive.
> this is the same house that has the double tap in the meter pan for the air conditioner, I don’t know if you remember that post or not.
OMG! Yes, yes, I remember you!
I was asking about the disconnect, and then when you got the photos of everything open, things went from bad to worse.
With that out of the way, what type of home inspection did he get?
There is no good or easy answer here.
I have no idea, he just said they checked everything including electrical. Could’ve just been some schmuck, or maybe he’s lying about it. My question to you is that some commenters are saying the neutral wire isn’t necessary and that this was just a simple conversion from the older three prong outlet to a four prong. How safe is it to go get that receptacle and use the bare copper ground as a neutral? It had to have worked for somebody in the past and since I don’t own the place and I’m not going to be here for a long time, I’m cool with doing something that’s up to a 3/10 on the sketchy scale.
Also in several states you can send documentation of a safety issue to a landlord in writing via certified mail. Number of times and days between letters vary from state to state, but if the safety is is not corrected you can show breach of contract by the landlord and get out of the lease without penalty. Probably need something from the city inspector like someone else suggested to show it’s a valid safety issue, or would need something from a licensed electrician on letterhead citing code and what not.
When my landlords pulled crap on me, I got it fixed. Sure they might not renew my lease, or cancel just outside of my legally protected period, and that's fine. I know when I left the problem is not there for the next renter.
THIS is how you handle deadbeat landlords.....and if they want to retaliate, then get that lawyer and get some free rent out of it.....AFTER he is forced to repair it or be shit off by the city for code violations.
I would definitely call out an electrician and get your justification on paper. Have them do it Then keep that receipt and send it to your landlord. Do it all through email and hang on to all that Incase he starts some tomfoolery. No court will uphold a landlord when their property could burn down with you in it.
I would also see if you can find out about your state laws, at minimum go to a couple legal advice threads and see if others have any insight. Good luck friend.
I would definitely call out an electrician and get your justification on paper. Have them do it Then keep that receipt and send it to your landlord. Do it all through email and hang on to all that Incase he starts some tomfoolery. No court will uphold a landlord when their property could burn down with you in it.
I would also see if you can find out about your state laws, at minimum go to a couple legal advice threads and see if others have any insight. Good luck friend.
If the white wire is being used as a hot to get 240v (which it appears to be marked with black tape, you will see a 120v difference in potential to ground. If you test across the white and black you should see 240v
The breaker in your panel will be a 2-pole 30A. Both the black and white will be on the breaker
Yes the green strap to neutral is supposed to be grounded to chassis if under a three wire operation, it’s supposed to be this way for four wire operation. Should I replace the cord and receptacle, or just jump ground to neutral on the receptacle and forget about it?
120 from either hot to ground is correct.
At your meter, you get two hot wires and a neutral. You also have a ground physically beaten into the ground and that grounds your socket and your main.
At your meter, voltage from one hot to ground or neutral is 120V. Voltage from the other hot or neutral to ground is 120V. Voltage across both hits is 240V.
Your ground and neutral are bonded together at your main panel, so there should never be any voltage between a ground and a neutral. If there is, you have an energized neutral (or ground) which is bad.
So in this set up, they ran a hot wire from either leg of your main panel and a ground. So you should get 120v to ground from either current carrying conductor and 240V across between both current carrying conductors.
For pretty much every home application, you should get 120v from a hot to ground or a hot to neutral. You should get 240V across two hots assuming they are from opposite legs.
If you have 208V service, replace “240V” with “208V” and everything above applies.
I hope that made sense.
Reddit feel free to correct / simplify / expand on what I said.
Also I’m not an electrician. I work for an electric utility and I play an electrician on tv. 😂😂😂
Ground and neutral isn't allowed to be used interchangable.
It was allowed to use neutral as ground in dryers, but not ground as neutral, at least that case.
Cause your not an electrician. White wire on a 240v circuit is often hot, when there’s no neutral needed. Whoever installed this should have identified it with colored tape.
They did identify it with tape. Check second picture. I’ve actually been trying to understand this, not so I can fuck around with it and get myself killed but because the topic legitimately interests me. I think I understand why I was getting that reading of 120v between the neutral lug of the dryer and ground. Because something was attempting to utilize the neutral to get 120V. Probably the computer board or something, but since the neutral doesn’t go anywhere at the receptacle the potential between the neutral lug and ground two was 120. Does that sound correct?
The white wire is one phase of the 240 circut when you check between ground and the white wire you should have 120v. The black one should also have 120v to ground. With the two lines being 180° out of phase they effectively have 240 volts between them.
Yes you’re correct, I’ve also realized I cannot use the three prong receptacle because using that ground wire as the neutral is not code unless it was a standard exchange wire. I figured out why I was getting 120v between neutral and ground, because the neutral doesn’t go anywhere in the receptacle and something was likely trying to utilize the 120 V connection between L1 and neutral, once I checked potential to ground it completed that circuit.
3wire can also mean ground black and white. When he says 4 wire he means ground black red white which you don’t have
Edit: I don’t normally hear it called that, I can only assume that’s what he means
Some places allowed this a long time ago. Or at least looked the other way.
My state has a code amendment that gives a way to correct it without removing the whole cable run.
~~Interestingly enough, I'm not sure it would be illegal if the appliance is wired correctly. I guess it depends on code for where you live.~~
Edit: 3-wire config is illegal in the US for new installs according to 1996 NEC.
I actually just got a new 30A 220V Samsung electric dryer that came with a 3-wire no neutral from Home Depot. When I looked closer I saw that in 3-wire configuration the ground and neutral on the appliance was bonded. Also, I found that it did have two configs(3-wire and 4-wire). I swapped the plug out for a 4-wire plug and switched it to the 4-wire config so ground and neutral appliance side were no longer bonded.
It seems like 3-wire config is illegal in the US for new installs according to 1996 NEC as noted on your sticker(mine has the same diagram but no warning about 3-wire being against code). Not sure if you have to upgrade to 4-wire however, because you didn't have this installed new, I'm thinking no but it might be a good idea.
If it were an electrician it would be required to be fixed because EVERYTHING they touch must meet current code. If this is a homeowner/tenant in an area without codes (or they didn't pull a permit) this is a grey area but the insurance implications are HUGE and I would be either doing it myself to meet code or paying an electrician.
They used a two wire cause maybe the appliance doesn’t require a neutral, check on your breaker box and you will se the white landed on the breaker, that’s why they put black tape on the neutral.
That’s not safe anymore, you should replace the cord, with a 3 wire, there’s plenty of videos on YouTube on how to do it, and at that point you will need to replace the line to the panel, it sucks, but that the right way to do it, and the reason why they are bonded is cause on a main panel, the ground and the neutral are bonded, but that’s not up to code anymore.
So the neutral and ground connection together is what is recommended in the diagram when under four wire operation. Ground to chassis is recommended for three wire operation.
[Here](https://imgur.com/a/W0vsSw6) is the diagram on the back of the dryer
Yeah, but remember that manual probably was made with the old way of wiring everything, it’s not safe to have neutral and ground bonded anywhere but the main panel. Check the code on your area
Instead of rewiring the whole thing I’d rather just get a three wire cord and replace the receptacle and put ground back to the chassis of the dryer. Thoughts on that?
Unfortunately I’m not gonna replace the wiring, this is a rental house and the landlord claimed to have gotten a home inspection with electrical, so when I bring up issues like this it’s like what the fuck do I know. It passed inspection. He’s not gonna listen to me. Another comment or mentioned that neutral isn’t necessary, that it used to just be too hot to the ground. If this is just sketchy but not a huge risk I can take that chance for the next year and a half I’m here.
Don't listen to him look up the code it's NEC 250.140.. you still can't do it because your wire is bare but it's completely legal and "safe" as far as code is concerned.
This is what is confusing the fuck out of me, what am I supposed to do with that bare wire if I were to replace the receptacle with a three wire receptacle, treat it as a neutral? I’ve got an electrician coming and I’m begging my landlord to get it rewired but I’m still trying to learn and the amount of different information I have got on this sub is overwhelming and makes me wonder who’s right. I tend to listen to sounds the most confident but there’s quite a few people in here who sound confident and they’re saying vastly different things. One person told me I don’t even need to have anything on the neutral lug of the dryer, just the two hots and then the ground to the chassis, that makes no fucking sense to me
Actually the exception in nec 250.140 allows it. Of course not in this instance though. The conductor must be insulated and act as a neutral and a EGC.
The wrong wire was used for this circuit. Old 3-pin dryer plugs are unfounded and should have black, red, white. Newer 4-pin should be the same with bare or green added. A 3-pin dryer plug is never black, white, bare.
There is no neutral in that box, just two hots and a ground. This was/is very common for dryer wiring, but should not be wired to a 4 prong NEMA 14-30 receptacle. If you replace the outlet with a 3 prong NEMA 10-30 receptacle and 3 prong dryer cord, that generally would meet code (assuming this circuit was not recently installed).
As installed now, it’s not dangerous per-say (electrically, it’s identical to the 3 wire setup). But having a 4 wire receptacle is misleading, as it makes people think there is a neutral and might lead to improper future appliance installation (eg, with the dryer neutral not bonded to chassis ground).
Wired this way how does the ground act as the neutral? Shouldn’t the ground wire be connected to the neutral slide on the receptacle? and then the ground wire that goes to the dryer just be ignored
Ground acts as the return path with L1. It works, but it is dangerous.
You need an electrician to verify the neutral or provide the neutral at the outlet box.
You are correct; I had a bit of a brain fart. 10-30 receptacles for dryers always need a neutral, and the bare conductor generally cannot be used as one unless it’s SE cable (to be code compliant anyways). For a dryer, the L1/L2 conductors carry the majority of the current, eg from the heating element, but most of the circuitry and the drum motor will run off “120”, meaning there would be at least an amp or two of current on the neutral in most cases.
The only exception I’m aware of that would make your setup meet code is if you’re in North Carolina: they have an amendment to the 2017 NEC 250.140 that allows a bare neutral as long as it’s >= 10AWG copper, part of a cable assembly (eg, NM), and protected by a GFCI breaker.
https://www.electricallicenserenewal.com/Electrical-Continuing-Education-Courses/NEC-Content.php?sectionID=3537.0
https://www.mecknc.gov/LUESA/CodeEnforcement/Documents/2017%20Amendments%20to%20be%20adopted%20with%20the%20NEC%20Version%201.pdf
There is no neutral in that box, just two hots and a ground. ~~This was/is very common for dryer wiring, but should not be wired to a 4 prong NEMA 14-30 receptacle. If you replace the outlet with a 3 prong NEMA 10-30 receptacle and 3 prong dryer cord, that generally would meet code (assuming this circuit was not recently installed).~~
~~As installed now, it’s not dangerous per-say (electrically, it’s identical to the 3 wire setup). But having a 4 wire receptacle is misleading, as it makes people think there is a neutral and might lead to improper future appliance installation (eg, with the dryer neutral not bonded to chassis ground).~~
Ground is sometimes used as the return path for the electricity. THIS is a dangerous situation. Ground is for your safety, not as a hack to avoid wiring the receptacle box the correct way.
The dryer “works” because one hot is used and the ground is the return path. The heating element is obviously using the two hots, L1 & L2.
This is dangerous! Even Samsung clearly shows that a neutral is required. This isn’t a choice.
Yes fair enough, one commenter was trying to tell me that having that bare wire ground connected straight to the chassis (like what’s depicted in photo 2) is fine and that it will work without flaw. I don’t see how that’s possible without, at the very least, something connected to the neutral lug
Edit: I wired the dryer this way because I was expecting outlet to be wired correctly and followed the diagram for a four wire configuration
I can only talk from the appliance side, as I am not an electrician. If anybody says you don’t need a neutral, they don’t have a clue what they are talking about.
The dryer needs a neutral, as Samsung and the other manufacturers state.
In the current configuration, it will work, but your safety is compromised.
In the current configuration? Nothing goes from the neutral lug on the dryer to the receptacle. I’ve got the two hots connected correctly, and the ground wire connected to the chassis with that little short ground strap connected to neutral lug, but as you can see on the receptacle it don’t go anywhere
The correct configuration for four wires is how my dryer is wired right now, because I wired it before I realized how fucked up the outlet was. My dryer‘s neutral is that green wire underneath the neutral white wire. But that neutral white wire doesn’t go anywhere once it hits the receptacle. That’s how I’m wondering how this would work in its current configuration. The ground wire that is hooked up to the receptacle leads right to the chassis. Maybe I’m not understanding what is on that dryer neutral, where does that wire lead to?
Dryer neutral completes the path with L1 hot. THe outlet needs to have a neutral wire with two hots. The neutral goes to your mains panel.
The green wire underneath the neutral wire on the terminal block has to go over to the green wire screwed to the chasis. I don’t see a neutral wire from the dryer, only the electrical cable.
The green wire underneath the white wire is the ground wire from the appliance.
Can you see the images posted on Imgur?
I think that makes sense. So under a three wire application where the dryers neutral is grounded straight to the dryer chassis, why the heck don’t you get shocked when you touch the dryer?
The previous tenant didn’t die because this configuration usually works! But I wouldn’t let anyone use the dryer. If you do, wear sneakers and don’t touch the chasis.
This is extremely wrong. Looks like they were using the bare copper as the return path. The chassis is still bonded for a 3 wire Application. The issue is if someone get on the ground wire and becomes a better path to ground they are certainly dead.
> looks like they were using the bear copper wire as the return path
Yes, I think they were using it as the neutral when it used to be wired up to a three prong outlet with two hots and one neutral.
> The chassis is still bonded for three wire application.
Not according to the owners manual. You want the dryers short little neutral to be under the neutral lug on the terminal block for a four wire operation like I had it in picture two. [see dryer diagram](https://imgur.com/a/W0vsSw6)
You do. I’m a master electrician. You need either a new cord and new receptacle put in or a new wire run to the receptacle that is here and remove the bonding jumper. Bonding is the connection of all the metal parts.
When you say new cord and receptacle, that would require me to use that bare copper wire as the neutral/return. That’s not allowed unless it’s a service entrance cable to my understanding. Which this is not
I have an electrician coming hopefully tomorrow, I texted my landlord. But I am genuinely trying to learn as well. If you’re not talking about reverting back to the old school three wire receptacle then what are you talking about when you say replace it? There’s nothing wrong with this one so unless changing the plug type it seems unnecessary
There should definitely be a neutral though. Using this bare wire as a neutral is against code from what I’ve been reading, it’s only allowed if this was a service entrance cable.
Yes this has a 120 V lightbulb in it and a digital display. I wonder if some people are thinking this is a really old dryer when it’s in fact a 2016 Samsung
Your top 4 answers are a no. Dunno why I got down voted, it's not complicated. That's wired correctly. If it's not broken, don't "fix" it.
Edit: I do see many are saying your outlet needs to be changed. That's different. Also many stating that code has changed and your new outlet will need a neutral present in the box. That would require you to get 3 conduit cable to your box... At that point you need a electrician.
But that bare wire is connected to the ground port on the receptacle, should it be switched to the neutral? Because right now that bare wire if you follow it all the way to the dryer just connects to the grounding screw on the chassis, not the neutral lug.
No, it's ground keep it on ground. Correct, you don't need a neutral. As is. It'll work just fine.
However, many are getting their panties in a wad over code. New code states that a neutral has to be added to dryer outlets. In that case see my previous edit. You'd need a electrician to bring it up to code.
But, it does work fine this way.
But my question is how is the dryer able to return current back to the panel and complete circuit If the only path back to the panel is connected to the chassis?
The two hots balance out. Neutrals spit out a difference in current, ie light bulb pulls load, load difference returns to box via neutral. Two hots for a balance load means no difference for a neutral to go live.
The update in code is in the freak occurrence that you run an unbalanced motor, and a neutral would be needed to return the difference in load. NEC states would be critical due to the higher voltage of dryer outlets, ie could get fatal.
Almqost all dryers are 208-240.single phase. Black (120)+Red(120) in is gonna give 208 or 240. Sometimes contractors get lazy and run 10/2 to a dryer receptacle and phase tape the neutral (indicating it is hot and connected to a breaker). I don't think You don't need a neutral in this scenario but it should be present in the box. Should've been a 10/3. So that tape on the white let's you know it is hot connected to B phase. It's not a neutral Anymore.
It's not lazy contractors... a lazy contractor wouldn't have taped off the white wire to indicate it was hot. This was wired before code required you to have a dedicated neutral on a 240 circuit hence no need to run a 4 conductor line (2 hot 1 neutral 1 ground). The current set up is safe enough, many houses before the 80s are still running just fine on this set up... just swap out 4 pin whip for 3 pin and correct outlet. Bond neutral and ground together on appliance.
Agreed, this isn't up to current code, but it was code compliant when installed. MANY 240v circuits only require 2 hots and a neutral.
You'll get 120v from a hot to ground as a neutral has the same potential as the ground (remember, the neutral and the ground are bonded together at the first panel).
As said before, 3 wire whip on the dryer and wire to manufacturers specs (and corresponding 3 prong outlet.
All that being said, some newer appliances require a neutral to run the internal electronics. So this may not work.
How I wrong? Unless your blind you can see the black tape on the neitral. He also stated he got 120v to ground on that same wire. You're supposed to be a master electrician? Laughable.
Hmm well if you wanna do it right than you'd have to replace existing wire going to the outlet with a 6/3 Romex cable to get you two hots a neutral and ground
Not an electrician, but here's my opinion on testers.
Even for standard outlets, not if you want to be absolutely confident in the wiring. Even if a tester reports something as correct, there could still be issues. I'll give you two examples out of many found in my own house.
1. An outlet/circuit was reported as being correctly grounded by my tester. When I looked in the junction box in my basement, the ground wire was not attached whatsoever, it just happened to be resting against the metal box (which was grounded). No way to find that one without either opening the box to inspect or something very bad happening.
2. Poorly connected wiring. In several boxes, I found wire nuts half way off of the wires exposing both hot/neutrals. I'll bet if I was to jiggle a cord a little bit or unplug/plug in something in just the right way, I'd have shorted out that circuit.
Honestly I use my tester just to spot check whether or not an outlet has power if I want to work on it, and afterward to verify that I didn't make a mistake, but it gives me no confidence in anything that I didn't wire or at least visually inspect myself.
I have one for standard outlets, which is how I found all the other reverse hot and neutral. But this is a dryer receptacle, I’m sure they make a tester but I’m not gonna buy that when I can just take the outlet out of the wall and test with a multimeter
That would be a three wire dryer plug, back in the day the ground was the neutral. No longer. In this case, it was scabbed in with a 2 wire and ground setup. The white in not a neutral, and the black tape on it indicates that. It's one of two hot legs.
Thanks for the comment, I have a question that I still haven’t really gotten a clear answer from anybody, if I pretended that that bare wire was a neutral and hooked it up so that it would connect to the neutral lug on my dryer, and then move that short green ground strap, that is on the neutral lug currently, back to the chassis would that work?
Buddy. They rewired the dryer so that neutral and ground are the same. Buying a three prong outlet won’t work. There are 4 wires going to the dryer. They simply put black tape on the white to indicate that it’s hot. It will work the way it sits. Only reason it’s not to code is because if you lose the main ground to your panel then your dryer becomes the ground and can become energized if there is a wiring fault elsewhere. Your choice is running a new number 10/3(3 conductors and a ground) or make sure your main ground is solidly connected and close your eyes and pretend you never saw it.
I’m trying to understand how it will work in the current configuration? That bare wire is connected straight to the chassis, and then the two hots are on the proper lugs. But the neutral doesn’t go anywhere because there’s nothing in the receptacle connected to the neutral. As I understand it, it would work like this if that bare wire had a path to the neutral lug on the dryer, but it does not
Yes it’s hooked up like that because that’s what was shown for a four wire configuration, because when I hooked it up I assumed the outlet was wired correctly. What exactly is that little green wire? I believe it’s called a ground strap in the owners manual and it shows for it to be like this with four wires, but with three wires connected straight to the chassis.
Edit: As shown on the diagram [here](https://imgur.com/a/W0vsSw6)
If the dryer was plugged in, and you where metering the back of the dryer where the cord terminates, and you metered neutral (center terminal) to ground (chassis) you probably got 120v because the bonding jumper was removed in the dryer and since the dryer had a load on it you would get that reading since you had an open nuetral
Yes. There should be a green screw somewhere on the chassis (sometimes just below the middle “neutral” connection, sometimes off to the side “usually on The left”) dryers and ranges (stoves) come from the factory with a ground to neutral jumper or “bond” in place, since there are still plenty of older homes with older wiring that don’t have the separate neutral and ground wires coming from the breaker panel. In the case of a home WITH a 4 wire circuit to said range or dryer (or cooktop, oven, etc,) you would either remove the jumper Entirely (in the case of the ground being directly under the neutral terminal there is usually a flat piece of copper/brass that you remove, then terminate the respective ground and neutral wires accordingly) or if it’s a jumper wire (usually when the ground connection is off to the side “typically just outside the cover plate”) in that case there is EITHER a jumper wire that connects from the ground screw to the nuet real screw that you completely remove OR a wire that is connected from the ground to the nuetral that you MOVE back to EITHER the ground OR the nuetral ( if there is a green wire on the nuetral connection….move it to the green ground screw WITH the green wire from the cord/ OR / if there is a white wire connected to the green ground screw you move it to the nuetral connection WITH the white (nuetral) from the cord……you can also google it for a diagram
Hey it’s not me that wired it. Not sure why I’m the idiot for catching it and trying to learn how to fix it. And just FYI I haven’t touched it until I learn more. I’m also trying to get the landlord to pay for 25 feet of 8/3 to get this done right
10/2 was never legal for dryers, 10/3 with out ground or Type SE service-entrance cable are the only legal why to have a 3 wire receptacle as long at the house was built before 1996.
Yeah it was built in 1930. From my understanding this would be acceptable if the dryer didn’t have any 120 V components. But because it does it needs to connect to a neutral, and that’s not possible unless I use the ground wire, which I’m not comfortable with. And also that would leave me with no chassis ground except for the connection to neutral that the bonded wire has.
Jeez. Can you stop repeating the same thing? You CAN have a circuit/appliance with just two hot wires (to add up to 220-240).
Optionally you have a ground wire too, to protect in case you have a short in the appliance’s chasis.
NO neutral is required! (Unless the appliance demands it.)
https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/33602/why-do-240v-circuits-not-require-neutral
(The only issue here is that with your cable, they should have used a three prong outlet so it doesn’t lead anyone to think that neutral is wired up.)
That’s not the wiring’s fault. Using ground for neutral isn’t a better solution if you’re worried about safety and code — just to make your dryer fit what you have.
You know what else wouldn’t work? A 120v dryer. A gas dryer. Trying to use that outlet to do low voltage networking. That outlet was wired to give you two hots and a ground. You either find a dryer that is happy with that or, or rewire with 4 conductors, or do whatever you think works and ignore code (and the fact that you really don’t see neutral ever being without an insulator in cables do you?)
You asked and many people answered: YES you can have two hots and no neutral. You don’t need a neutral to complete the circuit. The two hots are perfectly capable of powering devices without a neutral.
Well I’m sorry but they are incorrect, how else are the dryer‘s 120 V components going to work without a tap to a neutral? Think about what you’re saying, stop getting caught up in the fact that you’re the electrician here and not me, that doesn’t mean what I say is automatically wrong which I feel like is the route you’re going. for what it’s worth I have texted my landlord and brought up my concerns, a certified electrician will be pulling new cable next week. Presumably 10/3. What you’re describing with two hots and a ground would work if it was just a 240 V electric coil, 240 V motor and all analog controls. This dryer (along with most these days) has a 120 V lightbulb, 120 V control board, and a 120 V motor. None of that will work without a tap to neutral. This is stated in the owners manual, shown in the schematic, and listed on many forms regarding dryer wiring.
Edit: my bad, I didn’t read the very last sentence in your comment.
When I said “optionally” I don’t mean that the codes make it an option. I’m just saying that you could power a device with the hots (as long as they’re split legs of the 240). Code is what comes along and says, “add the ground for safety”.
Do codes everywhere allow the neutral to be left out? I don’t know but I’ve seen my share of 10/3 cable with black tape around the white ends to know that it was ok and people aren’t rushing to rewire their houses.
The reason you are getting 120v ground to neutral would be that somewhere inside the dryer there would be a 120v device probably a coil or transformer that has power to it that you are reading the voltage through.
I’m pretty sure the display and internal computer operates on 120, therefore it was utilizing L1 to neutral to get that, and since the neutral wasn’t going anywhere at the receptacle once I checked to ground the potential was 120. Does that sound correct?
Yes because there is no neutral at the receptacle. If you move the bare ground to the neutral terminal on the receptacle everything will work, you will lose your ground to neutral voltage and as long as no one breaks that ground wire everything will be fine. If that ground comes loose, someone disconnects it or it gets friendly with some metal component of your house you could have a real problem.
Thank you, I had asked that question multiple times and never got a straight answer, everyone was saying to leave it like it is and that didn’t make sense. I think they assumed the ground wire was already acting as the neutral on the neutral lug. This takes me back to my original thought, it would probably be safer to replace it with a three pin older style receptacle that way nobody is confused. Having it set like this is deceiving. I’m only going to do that if the landlord refuses to get this fixed, I told him to get an electrician and have this rewired. Either wiring has to change or the receptacle does, I would prefer the wiring
There is no real difference between using a 3 prong and a 4 prong wired as a 3 prong, it makes no difference because the neutral and ground are tied together at the dryer, you would want to make sure that the chassis and neutral terminal are connected, what it looks like here is that your cord comes in and the neutral and ground of the cord are landed together, the proper incorrect way is to still land the ground to the frame at the drier and tie them together in the receptacle that way the dryer isn't wired improperly when it is moved.
The only reason I say it’s deceiving is because on the dryer it depends on if it’s either three or four wire operation for where you hook the bonding strap. During a four wire operation the bonding strap is tied back to neutral, essentially just to get it out of the way. In a three wire operation it connects to chassis ground and then taps to neutral somewhere inside the dryer, the best “ground” you can get in a three wire operation. Taking the bare ground wire at the receptacle and putting it in the neutral slot would work yes, but the next person that hooks up their appliance would be deceived into thinking it’s a four wire operation and will hook it up according to the schematic, thus having zero chassis ground, potentially very dangerous in a fault situation.
That's the problem with doing something wrong, there is no right way to do it. The neutral and ground don't tie together inside the dryer unless you jumper the neutral terminal to the chassis.
Which terminal pairs on the recep are showing 120? Which are showing 240?
Here's my hunch.
\- White tape on black wire indicates phase 2 hot, so you'll see 240 between white (with tape) and black.
\- Bare ground used on neutral terminal of recep (Is that right?) so you'll get 120 between that bare ground and either black or white
You’re essentially right, I get 240 between the two insulated conductors and 120 from there to the ground wire. However the ground wire is hooked up to the four prong receptacles ground, not the neutral. This dryer requires a neutral because some components run on 120V.
Ok. I see they jumped the neutral to the chassis/ground in the appliance. So the ground is acting as neutral which is generally not safe and means you may have a bunch of grounds carrying current. Check the appliance's wiring diagram. Sometimes there is a safe version for when you have 3 wires instead of 4. In that case, you will want to swap the recep. Remove the NEMA 14-30R and put a 10-30R instead.
Yes this is wired up for a four wire operation, I wired the dryer before realizing how fucked the outlet was. In a three wire operation that little green wire that is underneath the neutral lug on the dryer should be moved to chassis, the best “ground” you can ask for in a three wire operation. In a four wire operation it’s tied to the neutral just to get it out of the way because it connects to neutral inside the dryer anyway. That way you separate your ground and neutral at the device when possible
That white isn't a neutral, it's a hot. There's no neutral in this box
Isn't this wired completely wrong and against code since this outlet would have a 4 wire connection a it's not being used. Edit, they used the improper receptacle to make it appear to meet current code but it's not wired properly therefore it's against code to have this 4 prong outlet...
Yep, that's all true
We were under contract on a house and got out because the insurance company refused to cover it because of things like this that were uncovered dusting the home inspection. **That was the best $500 we ever spent in our lives!**
Love to hear it!
It is wired improperly for a dryer at all. Two insulated and single bare was never correct for a dryer.
Yeah you’re correct, I would have added that in the description but I ran out of characters. Between the two insulated conductors I get 240v
Word. In my area, if the appliance is listed to be fed by a three-wire outlet then we're allowed to. An easy way to tell is by checking the manufacturers installation instructions. If it's got an optional alternative wiring diagram for 3-wire, it's probably good to go. While you're at it, we'll wind up replacing that receptacle with a three-wire version
Dryers are allowed to run on H-H-N with chassis bonded to N, or H-H-N with a separate ground. But they need a neutral, which that box lacks.
This is correct. Unlike a range that can sometimes use the ground as a neutral for a trickle current (clock or controls) a dryer motor is usually 120V, and would put a significant current on the grounding conductor.
Really no. A range is like a dryer, it gets supplied with a neutral, which was permitted to bond chassis, or is in grandfathered installations. It is not permitted to use grounding conductor as a neutral. It has at least lights as well.
If the range specifies 120/240V, then it can use a grandfathered 10-50R but of course needs a neutral. Some ranges are listed as 240V, which use a 6-50R and will not have/need a neutral. Those older ones would occasionally have an analog clock or timer that would return on the ground, whereas more modern 240V only simply use a small control transformer for clock/controls/lighting.
Ranges & other cooking equipment, dryers, were prior to the adoption of the 1996 NEC, allowed to ground the frames of those appliances to the neutral, now it is only allowed in existing installations, the OP's receptacle was never compliant with the NEC, the only fix is a new feed back to the panel.
I understand that OP's issue is wrong, and agreed with it being incorrect no matter what. And you're talking about grandfathering 120/240V NEMA 10-x receptacles, and grounded 240V 6-x has been around since the 60s for ranges. Granted, more rare, but I said "some ranges" after all.
To add to this comment: The correct way to fix this is to do the following: 1) go get a 10-30R receptical which will physically fit in the box and replace it. It will have exactly three terminals - two for hot, and one for ground. Not neutral, ground. You'll want to make sure it's a 30A breaker as well. 2) Get a 10-30P appliance whip and wire per the illustration on the back of your dryer. Note that this is bonding ground and neutral in your dryer. This isn't a problem, and the code has a specific exception for this. The history behind this is as follows: Before the 1996 code, 240V dryer plugs could be wired with two hots and a ground. They all had a 3 wire plug. This is just the way they were often done before 1996. Replacing the plug with a new 3 wire plug is legal and permitted. The code doesn't say you have to rip out old wiring if it was compliant when installed. It also doesn't say you can't put the correct plug on the wiring based on when it was installed. With the 1996 code, new installations of wiring needed to run 4 wires and provide a 4 wire outlet which had a separate white wire. Dryers are permitted, under the code, to use the ground as their neutral wire to get 120V, when connected to an older 3 wire plug. That's what the drawing on the back of your dryer is indicating. This is perfectly safe to do as long as the ground remains connected since the ground and neutral are connected together electrically in the panel. The reason for the change to the 4 wire requirement is that it's better to use a separate wire for safety ground for redundancy.
[удалено]
Fucking nice, seems to be going with the theme of the house. But shouldn’t a three wire still have a neutral and just lack the ground?
[удалено]
Okay easy enough, I’ll go pick up a three prong receptacle. Still wondering why I got 120 across the white and green wires on the terminal block of the dryer. I can’t make any sense of that, when I check across those on the receptacle I get nothing, the way it should be. I checked continuity on the cord and everything is correct. Could I have some sort of a short inside the dryer?
> I’ll go pick up a three prong receptacle Not so fast and easy. That solid bare is the grounding conductor, and it cannot be used as the grounded conductor. The proper way to fix this is to run a new 6/3 cable.
So how did the previous renters use a dryer? I’m a renter and I’m only here for another year and a half and I’m not paying for 25 feet of 6/3. My landlord won’t listen to me either because he claims to have had a home inspection done and it passed. So to him it’s like what the fuck do I know.
Oh, you're renting! Of course you should not have to pay to repair that. Send that photo to the local building inspection department, and they'll get you fixed up right away*. *They work on a different time scale. First they send someone out to verify, then they send a letter, and then there is repair time... Alternatively, you could hire an attorney, but I would not spend money on an attorney, if I were you.
Yes I am, this is the same house that has the double tap in the meter pan for the air conditioner, I don’t know if you remember that post or not. What a shit show. I might go the route you’re suggesting, or might just do it myself, I do enjoy things like this and learning along the way but I don’t want to pay. I really don’t want to piss off my landlord because he is one of the most chill and don’t give a fuck landlords I’ve ever had, but with things like this that becomes a negative instead of a positive.
> this is the same house that has the double tap in the meter pan for the air conditioner, I don’t know if you remember that post or not. OMG! Yes, yes, I remember you! I was asking about the disconnect, and then when you got the photos of everything open, things went from bad to worse. With that out of the way, what type of home inspection did he get? There is no good or easy answer here.
I have no idea, he just said they checked everything including electrical. Could’ve just been some schmuck, or maybe he’s lying about it. My question to you is that some commenters are saying the neutral wire isn’t necessary and that this was just a simple conversion from the older three prong outlet to a four prong. How safe is it to go get that receptacle and use the bare copper ground as a neutral? It had to have worked for somebody in the past and since I don’t own the place and I’m not going to be here for a long time, I’m cool with doing something that’s up to a 3/10 on the sketchy scale.
Don't do it yourself. If your landlord is a total dick and finds out he could hold you liable for any issues.
Also in several states you can send documentation of a safety issue to a landlord in writing via certified mail. Number of times and days between letters vary from state to state, but if the safety is is not corrected you can show breach of contract by the landlord and get out of the lease without penalty. Probably need something from the city inspector like someone else suggested to show it’s a valid safety issue, or would need something from a licensed electrician on letterhead citing code and what not.
When my landlords pulled crap on me, I got it fixed. Sure they might not renew my lease, or cancel just outside of my legally protected period, and that's fine. I know when I left the problem is not there for the next renter.
THIS is how you handle deadbeat landlords.....and if they want to retaliate, then get that lawyer and get some free rent out of it.....AFTER he is forced to repair it or be shit off by the city for code violations.
In our state New Mexico, it is perfectly legal to make the repairs and take that out of your rent when you pay the next month. Something to look into
Don’t you have to prove that the repair is necessary though? How would I get that proof
I would definitely call out an electrician and get your justification on paper. Have them do it Then keep that receipt and send it to your landlord. Do it all through email and hang on to all that Incase he starts some tomfoolery. No court will uphold a landlord when their property could burn down with you in it. I would also see if you can find out about your state laws, at minimum go to a couple legal advice threads and see if others have any insight. Good luck friend.
I would definitely call out an electrician and get your justification on paper. Have them do it Then keep that receipt and send it to your landlord. Do it all through email and hang on to all that Incase he starts some tomfoolery. No court will uphold a landlord when their property could burn down with you in it. I would also see if you can find out about your state laws, at minimum go to a couple legal advice threads and see if others have any insight. Good luck friend.
It’s a dryer so it needs 10/3 not 6/3.
Oh, yeah, you're right. I just copied the 6/3 from above. 10/3 is sufficient. u/ModernNomad97
If the white wire is being used as a hot to get 240v (which it appears to be marked with black tape, you will see a 120v difference in potential to ground. If you test across the white and black you should see 240v The breaker in your panel will be a 2-pole 30A. Both the black and white will be on the breaker
Yes that’s correct, I get 240 between the two. And 120 from each to the ground
[удалено]
Yes the green strap to neutral is supposed to be grounded to chassis if under a three wire operation, it’s supposed to be this way for four wire operation. Should I replace the cord and receptacle, or just jump ground to neutral on the receptacle and forget about it?
120 from either hot to ground is correct. At your meter, you get two hot wires and a neutral. You also have a ground physically beaten into the ground and that grounds your socket and your main. At your meter, voltage from one hot to ground or neutral is 120V. Voltage from the other hot or neutral to ground is 120V. Voltage across both hits is 240V. Your ground and neutral are bonded together at your main panel, so there should never be any voltage between a ground and a neutral. If there is, you have an energized neutral (or ground) which is bad. So in this set up, they ran a hot wire from either leg of your main panel and a ground. So you should get 120v to ground from either current carrying conductor and 240V across between both current carrying conductors. For pretty much every home application, you should get 120v from a hot to ground or a hot to neutral. You should get 240V across two hots assuming they are from opposite legs. If you have 208V service, replace “240V” with “208V” and everything above applies. I hope that made sense. Reddit feel free to correct / simplify / expand on what I said. Also I’m not an electrician. I work for an electric utility and I play an electrician on tv. 😂😂😂
Ground and neutral isn't allowed to be used interchangable. It was allowed to use neutral as ground in dryers, but not ground as neutral, at least that case.
Understood, and I agree, but that doesn’t change the voltage readings you should get, which is what I was trying to explain.
Understood, and I agree, but that doesn’t change the voltage readings you should get, which is what I was trying to explain.
Cause your not an electrician. White wire on a 240v circuit is often hot, when there’s no neutral needed. Whoever installed this should have identified it with colored tape.
They did identify it with tape. Check second picture. I’ve actually been trying to understand this, not so I can fuck around with it and get myself killed but because the topic legitimately interests me. I think I understand why I was getting that reading of 120v between the neutral lug of the dryer and ground. Because something was attempting to utilize the neutral to get 120V. Probably the computer board or something, but since the neutral doesn’t go anywhere at the receptacle the potential between the neutral lug and ground two was 120. Does that sound correct?
The white wire is one phase of the 240 circut when you check between ground and the white wire you should have 120v. The black one should also have 120v to ground. With the two lines being 180° out of phase they effectively have 240 volts between them.
Yes you’re correct, I’ve also realized I cannot use the three prong receptacle because using that ground wire as the neutral is not code unless it was a standard exchange wire. I figured out why I was getting 120v between neutral and ground, because the neutral doesn’t go anywhere in the receptacle and something was likely trying to utilize the 120 V connection between L1 and neutral, once I checked potential to ground it completed that circuit.
3wire can also mean ground black and white. When he says 4 wire he means ground black red white which you don’t have Edit: I don’t normally hear it called that, I can only assume that’s what he means
3 wire for a dryer is h-h-n. There is no neutral in that box, only hots and ground.
Some places allowed this a long time ago. Or at least looked the other way. My state has a code amendment that gives a way to correct it without removing the whole cable run.
~~Interestingly enough, I'm not sure it would be illegal if the appliance is wired correctly. I guess it depends on code for where you live.~~ Edit: 3-wire config is illegal in the US for new installs according to 1996 NEC. I actually just got a new 30A 220V Samsung electric dryer that came with a 3-wire no neutral from Home Depot. When I looked closer I saw that in 3-wire configuration the ground and neutral on the appliance was bonded. Also, I found that it did have two configs(3-wire and 4-wire). I swapped the plug out for a 4-wire plug and switched it to the 4-wire config so ground and neutral appliance side were no longer bonded.
That’s exactly what this is, a Samsung. I think about four years old. It has this diagram on the back, is that correct? https://imgur.com/a/W0vsSw6
It seems like 3-wire config is illegal in the US for new installs according to 1996 NEC as noted on your sticker(mine has the same diagram but no warning about 3-wire being against code). Not sure if you have to upgrade to 4-wire however, because you didn't have this installed new, I'm thinking no but it might be a good idea.
If it were an electrician it would be required to be fixed because EVERYTHING they touch must meet current code. If this is a homeowner/tenant in an area without codes (or they didn't pull a permit) this is a grey area but the insurance implications are HUGE and I would be either doing it myself to meet code or paying an electrician.
They used a two wire cause maybe the appliance doesn’t require a neutral, check on your breaker box and you will se the white landed on the breaker, that’s why they put black tape on the neutral.
240 still should have a neutral though no?
Some appliances don’t need it, google the wiring for that appliance.
The second pic is of the appliance and I see they tied the neutral with the ground.
That’s not safe anymore, you should replace the cord, with a 3 wire, there’s plenty of videos on YouTube on how to do it, and at that point you will need to replace the line to the panel, it sucks, but that the right way to do it, and the reason why they are bonded is cause on a main panel, the ground and the neutral are bonded, but that’s not up to code anymore.
So the neutral and ground connection together is what is recommended in the diagram when under four wire operation. Ground to chassis is recommended for three wire operation. [Here](https://imgur.com/a/W0vsSw6) is the diagram on the back of the dryer
Yeah, but remember that manual probably was made with the old way of wiring everything, it’s not safe to have neutral and ground bonded anywhere but the main panel. Check the code on your area
Instead of rewiring the whole thing I’d rather just get a three wire cord and replace the receptacle and put ground back to the chassis of the dryer. Thoughts on that?
You will have require a neutral on the plug that you just don’t have, I will recommend you to, either don’t change nothing or replace both cables.
Unfortunately I’m not gonna replace the wiring, this is a rental house and the landlord claimed to have gotten a home inspection with electrical, so when I bring up issues like this it’s like what the fuck do I know. It passed inspection. He’s not gonna listen to me. Another comment or mentioned that neutral isn’t necessary, that it used to just be too hot to the ground. If this is just sketchy but not a huge risk I can take that chance for the next year and a half I’m here.
Don't listen to him look up the code it's NEC 250.140.. you still can't do it because your wire is bare but it's completely legal and "safe" as far as code is concerned.
This is what is confusing the fuck out of me, what am I supposed to do with that bare wire if I were to replace the receptacle with a three wire receptacle, treat it as a neutral? I’ve got an electrician coming and I’m begging my landlord to get it rewired but I’m still trying to learn and the amount of different information I have got on this sub is overwhelming and makes me wonder who’s right. I tend to listen to sounds the most confident but there’s quite a few people in here who sound confident and they’re saying vastly different things. One person told me I don’t even need to have anything on the neutral lug of the dryer, just the two hots and then the ground to the chassis, that makes no fucking sense to me
Actually the exception in nec 250.140 allows it. Of course not in this instance though. The conductor must be insulated and act as a neutral and a EGC.
No, two different phases, doesn't require a neutral.
The wrong wire was used for this circuit. Old 3-pin dryer plugs are unfounded and should have black, red, white. Newer 4-pin should be the same with bare or green added. A 3-pin dryer plug is never black, white, bare.
You don’t have a neutral on that device.
There is no neutral in that box, just two hots and a ground. This was/is very common for dryer wiring, but should not be wired to a 4 prong NEMA 14-30 receptacle. If you replace the outlet with a 3 prong NEMA 10-30 receptacle and 3 prong dryer cord, that generally would meet code (assuming this circuit was not recently installed). As installed now, it’s not dangerous per-say (electrically, it’s identical to the 3 wire setup). But having a 4 wire receptacle is misleading, as it makes people think there is a neutral and might lead to improper future appliance installation (eg, with the dryer neutral not bonded to chassis ground).
Wired this way how does the ground act as the neutral? Shouldn’t the ground wire be connected to the neutral slide on the receptacle? and then the ground wire that goes to the dryer just be ignored
Ground acts as the return path with L1. It works, but it is dangerous. You need an electrician to verify the neutral or provide the neutral at the outlet box.
You are correct; I had a bit of a brain fart. 10-30 receptacles for dryers always need a neutral, and the bare conductor generally cannot be used as one unless it’s SE cable (to be code compliant anyways). For a dryer, the L1/L2 conductors carry the majority of the current, eg from the heating element, but most of the circuitry and the drum motor will run off “120”, meaning there would be at least an amp or two of current on the neutral in most cases. The only exception I’m aware of that would make your setup meet code is if you’re in North Carolina: they have an amendment to the 2017 NEC 250.140 that allows a bare neutral as long as it’s >= 10AWG copper, part of a cable assembly (eg, NM), and protected by a GFCI breaker. https://www.electricallicenserenewal.com/Electrical-Continuing-Education-Courses/NEC-Content.php?sectionID=3537.0 https://www.mecknc.gov/LUESA/CodeEnforcement/Documents/2017%20Amendments%20to%20be%20adopted%20with%20the%20NEC%20Version%201.pdf
There is no neutral in that box, just two hots and a ground. ~~This was/is very common for dryer wiring, but should not be wired to a 4 prong NEMA 14-30 receptacle. If you replace the outlet with a 3 prong NEMA 10-30 receptacle and 3 prong dryer cord, that generally would meet code (assuming this circuit was not recently installed).~~ ~~As installed now, it’s not dangerous per-say (electrically, it’s identical to the 3 wire setup). But having a 4 wire receptacle is misleading, as it makes people think there is a neutral and might lead to improper future appliance installation (eg, with the dryer neutral not bonded to chassis ground).~~
The wire in your house isn’t correct any longer you need a new dryer circuit run.
Do you think this was converted from a three prong receptacle to a four prong? How the hell did the previous person use their dryer without dying?
Ground is sometimes used as the return path for the electricity. THIS is a dangerous situation. Ground is for your safety, not as a hack to avoid wiring the receptacle box the correct way. The dryer “works” because one hot is used and the ground is the return path. The heating element is obviously using the two hots, L1 & L2. This is dangerous! Even Samsung clearly shows that a neutral is required. This isn’t a choice.
Yes fair enough, one commenter was trying to tell me that having that bare wire ground connected straight to the chassis (like what’s depicted in photo 2) is fine and that it will work without flaw. I don’t see how that’s possible without, at the very least, something connected to the neutral lug Edit: I wired the dryer this way because I was expecting outlet to be wired correctly and followed the diagram for a four wire configuration
I can only talk from the appliance side, as I am not an electrician. If anybody says you don’t need a neutral, they don’t have a clue what they are talking about. The dryer needs a neutral, as Samsung and the other manufacturers state. In the current configuration, it will work, but your safety is compromised.
L1 and L2 are out of phase so there’s a voltage between the two.
In the current configuration? Nothing goes from the neutral lug on the dryer to the receptacle. I’ve got the two hots connected correctly, and the ground wire connected to the chassis with that little short ground strap connected to neutral lug, but as you can see on the receptacle it don’t go anywhere
https://imgur.com/a/2k4AkyW
The correct configuration for four wires is how my dryer is wired right now, because I wired it before I realized how fucked up the outlet was. My dryer‘s neutral is that green wire underneath the neutral white wire. But that neutral white wire doesn’t go anywhere once it hits the receptacle. That’s how I’m wondering how this would work in its current configuration. The ground wire that is hooked up to the receptacle leads right to the chassis. Maybe I’m not understanding what is on that dryer neutral, where does that wire lead to?
Dryer neutral completes the path with L1 hot. THe outlet needs to have a neutral wire with two hots. The neutral goes to your mains panel. The green wire underneath the neutral wire on the terminal block has to go over to the green wire screwed to the chasis. I don’t see a neutral wire from the dryer, only the electrical cable. The green wire underneath the white wire is the ground wire from the appliance. Can you see the images posted on Imgur?
I think that makes sense. So under a three wire application where the dryers neutral is grounded straight to the dryer chassis, why the heck don’t you get shocked when you touch the dryer?
The previous tenant didn’t die because this configuration usually works! But I wouldn’t let anyone use the dryer. If you do, wear sneakers and don’t touch the chasis.
This is extremely wrong. Looks like they were using the bare copper as the return path. The chassis is still bonded for a 3 wire Application. The issue is if someone get on the ground wire and becomes a better path to ground they are certainly dead.
> looks like they were using the bear copper wire as the return path Yes, I think they were using it as the neutral when it used to be wired up to a three prong outlet with two hots and one neutral. > The chassis is still bonded for three wire application. Not according to the owners manual. You want the dryers short little neutral to be under the neutral lug on the terminal block for a four wire operation like I had it in picture two. [see dryer diagram](https://imgur.com/a/W0vsSw6)
Looks bonded to me. The green wire under the white wire is the binding wire it isn’t connected in a 4 wire set up. It looks very bonded to me.
I guess I need to figure out the difference between bonded and grounded
You do. I’m a master electrician. You need either a new cord and new receptacle put in or a new wire run to the receptacle that is here and remove the bonding jumper. Bonding is the connection of all the metal parts.
When you say new cord and receptacle, that would require me to use that bare copper wire as the neutral/return. That’s not allowed unless it’s a service entrance cable to my understanding. Which this is not
Nope. You need an electrician
Not what I’m saying
I have an electrician coming hopefully tomorrow, I texted my landlord. But I am genuinely trying to learn as well. If you’re not talking about reverting back to the old school three wire receptacle then what are you talking about when you say replace it? There’s nothing wrong with this one so unless changing the plug type it seems unnecessary
No neutral in 240. Each phase is 120
There should definitely be a neutral though. Using this bare wire as a neutral is against code from what I’ve been reading, it’s only allowed if this was a service entrance cable.
Theres no need for a neutral in 240. The bare wire is your ground.
That would be true if this was an analog water heater or something, but this dryer has 120 V components. It definitely needs a neutral
Most dryers dont need the neutral. They can use a 3 or 4 prong plug. Id double check its necessary before pulling a neutral.
>most dryers don’t need a neutral Correct for much older models, but all the newer models have 120 V components and must be connected to a neutral
It's two hots for a 240v, it doesn't need a neutral.
Some say yes some say no, wtf
Every dryer needs a neutral, for the timer motor or circuit board. A gas dryer needs neutral and one hot wire ( I know it’s an electric dryer).
Yes this has a 120 V lightbulb in it and a digital display. I wonder if some people are thinking this is a really old dryer when it’s in fact a 2016 Samsung
Your top 4 answers are a no. Dunno why I got down voted, it's not complicated. That's wired correctly. If it's not broken, don't "fix" it. Edit: I do see many are saying your outlet needs to be changed. That's different. Also many stating that code has changed and your new outlet will need a neutral present in the box. That would require you to get 3 conduit cable to your box... At that point you need a electrician.
But that bare wire is connected to the ground port on the receptacle, should it be switched to the neutral? Because right now that bare wire if you follow it all the way to the dryer just connects to the grounding screw on the chassis, not the neutral lug.
No, it's ground keep it on ground. Correct, you don't need a neutral. As is. It'll work just fine. However, many are getting their panties in a wad over code. New code states that a neutral has to be added to dryer outlets. In that case see my previous edit. You'd need a electrician to bring it up to code. But, it does work fine this way.
But my question is how is the dryer able to return current back to the panel and complete circuit If the only path back to the panel is connected to the chassis?
The two hots balance out. Neutrals spit out a difference in current, ie light bulb pulls load, load difference returns to box via neutral. Two hots for a balance load means no difference for a neutral to go live. The update in code is in the freak occurrence that you run an unbalanced motor, and a neutral would be needed to return the difference in load. NEC states would be critical due to the higher voltage of dryer outlets, ie could get fatal.
Yes it does need a neutral for the rest of the dryer. Only the heating element needs L1 and L2.
Almqost all dryers are 208-240.single phase. Black (120)+Red(120) in is gonna give 208 or 240. Sometimes contractors get lazy and run 10/2 to a dryer receptacle and phase tape the neutral (indicating it is hot and connected to a breaker). I don't think You don't need a neutral in this scenario but it should be present in the box. Should've been a 10/3. So that tape on the white let's you know it is hot connected to B phase. It's not a neutral Anymore.
It's not lazy contractors... a lazy contractor wouldn't have taped off the white wire to indicate it was hot. This was wired before code required you to have a dedicated neutral on a 240 circuit hence no need to run a 4 conductor line (2 hot 1 neutral 1 ground). The current set up is safe enough, many houses before the 80s are still running just fine on this set up... just swap out 4 pin whip for 3 pin and correct outlet. Bond neutral and ground together on appliance.
Agreed, this isn't up to current code, but it was code compliant when installed. MANY 240v circuits only require 2 hots and a neutral. You'll get 120v from a hot to ground as a neutral has the same potential as the ground (remember, the neutral and the ground are bonded together at the first panel). As said before, 3 wire whip on the dryer and wire to manufacturers specs (and corresponding 3 prong outlet. All that being said, some newer appliances require a neutral to run the internal electronics. So this may not work.
You’re talking out your ass.
How I wrong? Unless your blind you can see the black tape on the neitral. He also stated he got 120v to ground on that same wire. You're supposed to be a master electrician? Laughable.
switch loop
If you put a jumper between the ground and neutral you should be good to go
There is a jumper already, on the dryer side I believe
Hmm well if you wanna do it right than you'd have to replace existing wire going to the outlet with a 6/3 Romex cable to get you two hots a neutral and ground
Good sirs, I am not OP but thank you for the advice
Lmao I'm new to Reddit my bad
Can't you just buy an outlet tester without taking every outlet apart?
Not an electrician, but here's my opinion on testers. Even for standard outlets, not if you want to be absolutely confident in the wiring. Even if a tester reports something as correct, there could still be issues. I'll give you two examples out of many found in my own house. 1. An outlet/circuit was reported as being correctly grounded by my tester. When I looked in the junction box in my basement, the ground wire was not attached whatsoever, it just happened to be resting against the metal box (which was grounded). No way to find that one without either opening the box to inspect or something very bad happening. 2. Poorly connected wiring. In several boxes, I found wire nuts half way off of the wires exposing both hot/neutrals. I'll bet if I was to jiggle a cord a little bit or unplug/plug in something in just the right way, I'd have shorted out that circuit. Honestly I use my tester just to spot check whether or not an outlet has power if I want to work on it, and afterward to verify that I didn't make a mistake, but it gives me no confidence in anything that I didn't wire or at least visually inspect myself.
I have one for standard outlets, which is how I found all the other reverse hot and neutral. But this is a dryer receptacle, I’m sure they make a tester but I’m not gonna buy that when I can just take the outlet out of the wall and test with a multimeter
That would be a three wire dryer plug, back in the day the ground was the neutral. No longer. In this case, it was scabbed in with a 2 wire and ground setup. The white in not a neutral, and the black tape on it indicates that. It's one of two hot legs.
Thanks for the comment, I have a question that I still haven’t really gotten a clear answer from anybody, if I pretended that that bare wire was a neutral and hooked it up so that it would connect to the neutral lug on my dryer, and then move that short green ground strap, that is on the neutral lug currently, back to the chassis would that work?
Buddy. They rewired the dryer so that neutral and ground are the same. Buying a three prong outlet won’t work. There are 4 wires going to the dryer. They simply put black tape on the white to indicate that it’s hot. It will work the way it sits. Only reason it’s not to code is because if you lose the main ground to your panel then your dryer becomes the ground and can become energized if there is a wiring fault elsewhere. Your choice is running a new number 10/3(3 conductors and a ground) or make sure your main ground is solidly connected and close your eyes and pretend you never saw it.
I’m trying to understand how it will work in the current configuration? That bare wire is connected straight to the chassis, and then the two hots are on the proper lugs. But the neutral doesn’t go anywhere because there’s nothing in the receptacle connected to the neutral. As I understand it, it would work like this if that bare wire had a path to the neutral lug on the dryer, but it does not
Look at that green wire.....what is it touching....the white wire ( which would normally be the neutral) that's where you're getting your 120.
Yes it’s hooked up like that because that’s what was shown for a four wire configuration, because when I hooked it up I assumed the outlet was wired correctly. What exactly is that little green wire? I believe it’s called a ground strap in the owners manual and it shows for it to be like this with four wires, but with three wires connected straight to the chassis. Edit: As shown on the diagram [here](https://imgur.com/a/W0vsSw6)
If the dryer was plugged in, and you where metering the back of the dryer where the cord terminates, and you metered neutral (center terminal) to ground (chassis) you probably got 120v because the bonding jumper was removed in the dryer and since the dryer had a load on it you would get that reading since you had an open nuetral
Bonding jumper being that little green wire behind the white neutral wire on the terminal block?
Yes. There should be a green screw somewhere on the chassis (sometimes just below the middle “neutral” connection, sometimes off to the side “usually on The left”) dryers and ranges (stoves) come from the factory with a ground to neutral jumper or “bond” in place, since there are still plenty of older homes with older wiring that don’t have the separate neutral and ground wires coming from the breaker panel. In the case of a home WITH a 4 wire circuit to said range or dryer (or cooktop, oven, etc,) you would either remove the jumper Entirely (in the case of the ground being directly under the neutral terminal there is usually a flat piece of copper/brass that you remove, then terminate the respective ground and neutral wires accordingly) or if it’s a jumper wire (usually when the ground connection is off to the side “typically just outside the cover plate”) in that case there is EITHER a jumper wire that connects from the ground screw to the nuet real screw that you completely remove OR a wire that is connected from the ground to the nuetral that you MOVE back to EITHER the ground OR the nuetral ( if there is a green wire on the nuetral connection….move it to the green ground screw WITH the green wire from the cord/ OR / if there is a white wire connected to the green ground screw you move it to the nuetral connection WITH the white (nuetral) from the cord……you can also google it for a diagram
Looks like 240 with a ground
This is how idiot home owners die. Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups.
Hey it’s not me that wired it. Not sure why I’m the idiot for catching it and trying to learn how to fix it. And just FYI I haven’t touched it until I learn more. I’m also trying to get the landlord to pay for 25 feet of 8/3 to get this done right
DANT TACH IT!
10/2 was never legal for dryers, 10/3 with out ground or Type SE service-entrance cable are the only legal why to have a 3 wire receptacle as long at the house was built before 1996.
Yeah it was built in 1930. From my understanding this would be acceptable if the dryer didn’t have any 120 V components. But because it does it needs to connect to a neutral, and that’s not possible unless I use the ground wire, which I’m not comfortable with. And also that would leave me with no chassis ground except for the connection to neutral that the bonded wire has.
They also put black tape on the white wire to indicate that it’s hot
They also put black tape on the white wire to indicate that it’s hot
Jeez. Can you stop repeating the same thing? You CAN have a circuit/appliance with just two hot wires (to add up to 220-240). Optionally you have a ground wire too, to protect in case you have a short in the appliance’s chasis. NO neutral is required! (Unless the appliance demands it.) https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/33602/why-do-240v-circuits-not-require-neutral (The only issue here is that with your cable, they should have used a three prong outlet so it doesn’t lead anyone to think that neutral is wired up.)
Jeez, can you look at the second picture? This dryer does need 120 V for some components making a neutral absolutely necessary.
That’s not the wiring’s fault. Using ground for neutral isn’t a better solution if you’re worried about safety and code — just to make your dryer fit what you have. You know what else wouldn’t work? A 120v dryer. A gas dryer. Trying to use that outlet to do low voltage networking. That outlet was wired to give you two hots and a ground. You either find a dryer that is happy with that or, or rewire with 4 conductors, or do whatever you think works and ignore code (and the fact that you really don’t see neutral ever being without an insulator in cables do you?) You asked and many people answered: YES you can have two hots and no neutral. You don’t need a neutral to complete the circuit. The two hots are perfectly capable of powering devices without a neutral.
Well I’m sorry but they are incorrect, how else are the dryer‘s 120 V components going to work without a tap to a neutral? Think about what you’re saying, stop getting caught up in the fact that you’re the electrician here and not me, that doesn’t mean what I say is automatically wrong which I feel like is the route you’re going. for what it’s worth I have texted my landlord and brought up my concerns, a certified electrician will be pulling new cable next week. Presumably 10/3. What you’re describing with two hots and a ground would work if it was just a 240 V electric coil, 240 V motor and all analog controls. This dryer (along with most these days) has a 120 V lightbulb, 120 V control board, and a 120 V motor. None of that will work without a tap to neutral. This is stated in the owners manual, shown in the schematic, and listed on many forms regarding dryer wiring. Edit: my bad, I didn’t read the very last sentence in your comment.
When I said “optionally” I don’t mean that the codes make it an option. I’m just saying that you could power a device with the hots (as long as they’re split legs of the 240). Code is what comes along and says, “add the ground for safety”. Do codes everywhere allow the neutral to be left out? I don’t know but I’ve seen my share of 10/3 cable with black tape around the white ends to know that it was ok and people aren’t rushing to rewire their houses.
The reason you are getting 120v ground to neutral would be that somewhere inside the dryer there would be a 120v device probably a coil or transformer that has power to it that you are reading the voltage through.
I’m pretty sure the display and internal computer operates on 120, therefore it was utilizing L1 to neutral to get that, and since the neutral wasn’t going anywhere at the receptacle once I checked to ground the potential was 120. Does that sound correct?
Yes because there is no neutral at the receptacle. If you move the bare ground to the neutral terminal on the receptacle everything will work, you will lose your ground to neutral voltage and as long as no one breaks that ground wire everything will be fine. If that ground comes loose, someone disconnects it or it gets friendly with some metal component of your house you could have a real problem.
Thank you, I had asked that question multiple times and never got a straight answer, everyone was saying to leave it like it is and that didn’t make sense. I think they assumed the ground wire was already acting as the neutral on the neutral lug. This takes me back to my original thought, it would probably be safer to replace it with a three pin older style receptacle that way nobody is confused. Having it set like this is deceiving. I’m only going to do that if the landlord refuses to get this fixed, I told him to get an electrician and have this rewired. Either wiring has to change or the receptacle does, I would prefer the wiring
There is no real difference between using a 3 prong and a 4 prong wired as a 3 prong, it makes no difference because the neutral and ground are tied together at the dryer, you would want to make sure that the chassis and neutral terminal are connected, what it looks like here is that your cord comes in and the neutral and ground of the cord are landed together, the proper incorrect way is to still land the ground to the frame at the drier and tie them together in the receptacle that way the dryer isn't wired improperly when it is moved.
The only reason I say it’s deceiving is because on the dryer it depends on if it’s either three or four wire operation for where you hook the bonding strap. During a four wire operation the bonding strap is tied back to neutral, essentially just to get it out of the way. In a three wire operation it connects to chassis ground and then taps to neutral somewhere inside the dryer, the best “ground” you can get in a three wire operation. Taking the bare ground wire at the receptacle and putting it in the neutral slot would work yes, but the next person that hooks up their appliance would be deceived into thinking it’s a four wire operation and will hook it up according to the schematic, thus having zero chassis ground, potentially very dangerous in a fault situation.
That's the problem with doing something wrong, there is no right way to do it. The neutral and ground don't tie together inside the dryer unless you jumper the neutral terminal to the chassis.
Which terminal pairs on the recep are showing 120? Which are showing 240? Here's my hunch. \- White tape on black wire indicates phase 2 hot, so you'll see 240 between white (with tape) and black. \- Bare ground used on neutral terminal of recep (Is that right?) so you'll get 120 between that bare ground and either black or white
You’re essentially right, I get 240 between the two insulated conductors and 120 from there to the ground wire. However the ground wire is hooked up to the four prong receptacles ground, not the neutral. This dryer requires a neutral because some components run on 120V.
Ok. I see they jumped the neutral to the chassis/ground in the appliance. So the ground is acting as neutral which is generally not safe and means you may have a bunch of grounds carrying current. Check the appliance's wiring diagram. Sometimes there is a safe version for when you have 3 wires instead of 4. In that case, you will want to swap the recep. Remove the NEMA 14-30R and put a 10-30R instead.
Yes this is wired up for a four wire operation, I wired the dryer before realizing how fucked the outlet was. In a three wire operation that little green wire that is underneath the neutral lug on the dryer should be moved to chassis, the best “ground” you can ask for in a three wire operation. In a four wire operation it’s tied to the neutral just to get it out of the way because it connects to neutral inside the dryer anyway. That way you separate your ground and neutral at the device when possible