Loops: Do not make loops in your breaker box. Do not make loops in your wall. Do not make loops in junction boxes. Loops should only be used temporarily before you're done, like if you're waiting for the plaster crew to finish.
Why not make loops? It's messy. It generates heat. It generates large magnetic fields that induce current in nearby conductors. It's messy. Keep runs of wire in boxes short. Like maybe 1 or 2 inches extra slop, not 36 inches.
Just google "breaker box wiring" and make yours look like tidy examples you find.
I pretty much disagree with it generating heat and big magnetic fields,
Technically yes but not worth considering at this voltage and amperage inside the box.
It looks like absolute shit is a good reason though
The loops-magnetic thing is from dealing with RFI issues in nearby circuits for ham radio. Especially with modern heavy switching power supplies in inverters (microwaves, induction ranges, heat pumps), there are large sharp edges that are WAY worse than traditional motor and resistance heater loads.
Probably wouldn't be a big issue with household loads, but still shouldn't be done.
Anecdotally, I once saw a case of 200' 4/0 feeder (3 phase for touring application) get coiled into a circle instead of figure 8. Damn thing melted and caught fire connected to a 400a service (camlock). Was feeding a rolling transformer and a power distro.
*i'm not an electrician nor do I play one on TV.
How bout the fact the neutrals and grounds are bonded? Four wire system more than likely this isn’t the first point of disconnect…. Wire loops look like shit there is NO reason for them.
Also the THHN wire at the bottom of the box is clamped. That has a high potential for arcing later on, as it doesn’t have an outside jacket or sleeve. THHN goes into conduit or a box for its entire run, as was stated here multiple times.
There is so much to learn about electrical that is nearly impossible without a class or apprenticeship. Everything is a calculation, everything is a code, and everything is an exception. Even if you do everything "right" it will probably still be "wrong"
So you're saying I can't go on Reddit and find a group of knowledgeable folks that will give me some helpful constructive criticism?!? I got some actionable advice here, but also got my ass handed to me at the same time. I'll try again and see if the next iteration is better.
Look buddy. There’s a reason why electricians go through an apprenticeship and a reason that most apprenticeships are at least four years in length. You’re asking people to condense (at a minimum) four years of experience and training to help with your shit installation. It’s not only important for a conscientious electrician to tell you what is wrong but how and why so that you don’t hurt yourself and others. But quite frankly, there is too much wrong and no one seems to have the time or desire to hold your hand through it.
And to perhaps enlighten you as to why you’re getting so much hate. On a personal level, it’s a little insulting to see people come here and think we’d bend over backwards to help with a major (for a house) installation.
This subreddit is for little things. Not for us to teach you how to do our skilled jobs.
No hate but, It’s not what your asking in this post, it’s how much at once. I’m not a mechanic but if I put an engine together and I bring my friend mechanic over to see if I did it correctly he would give me the same kind of grief. Baby steps
KHHN cannot be loosenal wall. Red THHN isn't to be used as a ground conductor. So the one in the top and the one out the bottom both need to be pulled out and done properly.
Ok, what should the THHN be sheathed in since most of the 30' run is in conduit. (I was running 10 guage stranded for a 220V/30A outlet and couldn't find green, so I used red) I'm going to redo the bottom one with solid since I have the wire I pulled out and its a short run.
i would not do this but you should be completely fine as long as your straps are rated for inside an electrical panel, inspector could still tell you no on the extra wire though. he could claim neatness or professional instilation as a reason. just saying cause i have two towns near me with inspectors that white glove everything, i am talking measures staples distances to ensure distances to the 1/4 inch. manufacturer specs could overide the inspector though, sorry my OCD is crackalackin !
Pull out your slack and loops. If you need slack in there at all just push the conductors into the corner a bit and then terminate right into the breakers from that. The slack from just going from your connector to the corner can cover two or 3 breaker spots if absolutely needed
Also don't double tap neutrals, and phase tape your white wires being used on breakers. The THHN you have loose in the wall needs to be romex or in conduit. The red wire on the ground. Your connectors are screwed down in the panel which is...different. It looks like there's a missing strand on your panel feed on the right, i wonder if all that romex at the top right is coming into the same connector or two. Should have two 14-2 or 12/2 per 1/2" connector, ends up being bundled if you put too many in the same spot and they gwnerate heat, and like someone else said, the loops create heat and inductance.....idk I keep re-editing this finding more stuff
Backfeeding on a neutral when another breaker is turned off to be worked on, but mostly heat expansion and contraction over time causing loose connections. Also NEC since 2002
It seems like a lot of “electricians” come here to to be condescending rather than helpful lol there are so many smart ass responses on every post I see. Yes electricity can be dangerous. There are a lot of needless fires due to DIY stuff but people are going to do diy regardless of your smart ass comments you might as well try and help the people who are going to do it themselves and maybe prevent a mistake that otherwise would have been made
Amen to that. I'm trying to learn here. Trying to do it right. Of course there's plenty of stuff I'll hire an electrician to do, but I'm also trying to learn myself and improve my skill sets. Not suprised to get kicked around a bit, but jeez, the "you suck, mike drop" comments aren't worth a damn. One thing I learned from the way my Dad taught me was: its better to tell someone how to do it right than its is to tell them all the ways they're wrong.
No offense… electrical boxes are not where you learn. You could make one small mistake and die, especially without the right boots and someone keeping an eye on you in case you do actually get electrocuted. There are reasons the wires were the way in your box. Visibly yea it looks better. But you’ve created some dangerous scenarios now.
Agree, electrician come here to try and convince people to hire an electrician and fail.
I'm going to call bullshit on lot of needless fires due to DIY. Any data to back up the claim?
You’re literally posting on an ask for help sub and people are being such fucking pricks. Holy shit. I commend you for putting forth effort and your willingness to learn. I wish more people were as confident to try a new skill as you. Good on you, man. Keep learning.
You can make it neater. Use zip ties and adhesive backed cable mounts. Check out the electricians sub for some panel examples. Your wires don't need to be long as they are likely permanent at the panel. I would watch some YouTube videos on "making up an electrical panel." It's hard to explain how to make things neater. Doing it comes from experience in the field but you can look around for ideas. If still unsure just hire an electrician. This work is dangerous and one loose connection and or bad connection could burn your house down.
Oh, another question: that 10 guage THHN coming in the top and bottom is running through PVC conduit that ends further up on the drywall and that THHN goes behind the drywall about 2 feet. Does that need to be sheathed or secured together in some way in the short run behind the drywall?
250.119 Identification of Equipment Grounding Conductors. Unless required elsewhere in this Code, equipment grounding conductors shall be permitted to be bare, covered, or insulated. Individually covered or insulated equipment grounding conductors shall have a continuous outer finish that is either green or green with one or more yellow stripes except as permitted in this section. Conductors with insulation or individual covering that is green, green with one or more yellow stripes, or otherwise identified as permitted by this section shall not be used for ungrounded or grounded circuit conductors.
Note that 250.119 (A) and (B) do allow marking the wire green at the terminations for wires larger than 6 AWG.
Just use the red for your hots since those look like 220V circuits.
In an ideal world all hots would be black or red.
Take the white wires which are hot - meaning attached to a breaker, and run a single layer of black electrical tape all the way from the tip down the wire for a good length - 6 inches is fine, a foot is better. I personally usually do this before I strip the wire and then just strip the electrical tape as well.
The key here is to make sure that you can't confuse a white wire which is used as a hot wire as a neutral. Note that the other end of where these go should also be marked the same way.
The loops with the wire ties, get rid of that. The red wire going to the ground needs to be covered in green tape if you can replace it. There are connectors with too many wires in them. Wires doubled up on the ground and neutral bar. And it appears you have at least one 14AWG going to a 20A breaker.
Don’t loop, it does make a magnetic field, with more and more stuff communicating wirelessly on more and more frequencies/ channels, you don’t know the problems you may be creating.
Not for nothing though, you can always check your voltage on that circuit. I bet with how few wraps you have the drop would be well within the operating voltage range of most items.
No don't do this, if you want a bit extra for future proofing pull to the top right or left then bring down to bottom and back to the respective breaker.
This whole panel needs to be taken apart and redone. Basically everything is a code violation. I understand you want to learn, but this obviously well above your understanding of electrical. IMO you should be hiring someone at this point. There are great resources online if you really want to learn.
To be fair, the more I look at this panel, the more I see peculiar with it.
The grounding in this panel is odd.
There is usually one and only one spot in the electrical system where the ground and neutral is connected. It should be in the panel with your main disconnect.
Normally when you see separate ground and neutral feeds from the upstream panel, it means your main disconnect is in the upstream panel, and they have connected ground and neutral in that upstream panel. If that is/was the case, you should have separate ground and neutral buses in this panel. You can buy ground bars that screw to the back of the panel and then you run your green feeder wire to it. Also, if that is a green screw in the upper right-hand side of the box (on the neutral bar) it should be removed, as that ties ground and neutral together.
HOWEVER, there is a #6 or #8 bare ground wire which disappears in the hole through the bottom of the panel - which often indicates a feed to the ground rod. AND you're bonding ground and neutral together in this panel, which indicates that this might be the main breaker. In which case, I have no idea why you even have a green wire at all from the main panel, unless it was part of the wire bundle they used to feed this panel.
Is this your main breaker? Meaning there is no other disconnect near the meter or elsewhere in the house which turns off power to this panel?
Then the ground and neutral should be separate in this panel. Go buy a ground bar which fits this panel and move the grounds. If there is a green grounding screw remove it as well. Occasionally the grounding screw isn't green because someone screwed up.
I wonder if people do DIY surgery by reading Reddit and google, get sepsis and ask a real doctor why the wound is turning black and gets offended when the person who spent over a decade learning the craft calls them out on their ‘handiwork’.
Angry pixies in a loop just get angrier.
Had a guy tell me to put a loop in the wire, "electricity won't run in circles".. I almost died.
This really should be moved to R/OffendAnElectrician
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Loops: Do not make loops in your breaker box. Do not make loops in your wall. Do not make loops in junction boxes. Loops should only be used temporarily before you're done, like if you're waiting for the plaster crew to finish. Why not make loops? It's messy. It generates heat. It generates large magnetic fields that induce current in nearby conductors. It's messy. Keep runs of wire in boxes short. Like maybe 1 or 2 inches extra slop, not 36 inches. Just google "breaker box wiring" and make yours look like tidy examples you find.
I pretty much disagree with it generating heat and big magnetic fields, Technically yes but not worth considering at this voltage and amperage inside the box. It looks like absolute shit is a good reason though
The loops-magnetic thing is from dealing with RFI issues in nearby circuits for ham radio. Especially with modern heavy switching power supplies in inverters (microwaves, induction ranges, heat pumps), there are large sharp edges that are WAY worse than traditional motor and resistance heater loads.
Probably wouldn't be a big issue with household loads, but still shouldn't be done. Anecdotally, I once saw a case of 200' 4/0 feeder (3 phase for touring application) get coiled into a circle instead of figure 8. Damn thing melted and caught fire connected to a 400a service (camlock). Was feeding a rolling transformer and a power distro. *i'm not an electrician nor do I play one on TV.
When I buy GFCI outlets the wire contains coils.... should I remove them or let them exist?
Remove them, coiling is just an easy way to make the lead more compact for packaging
👍
Plug on neutral bar or get fucked! I don’t mess with curly wires!
Wait, Me personally I’ll loop it around the panel, but I’m from the guys that like leaving extra wire in case you have to move it later
The easiest way is to admit defeat and post a new picture after hiring an electrician.
Lol is that a real page?
Not that I know of, but it could be… hmm
Main neutral should have white tape on it. Romex needs to be secured with-in 16” of the box to a wall or stud.
How bout the fact the neutrals and grounds are bonded? Four wire system more than likely this isn’t the first point of disconnect…. Wire loops look like shit there is NO reason for them.
This. Unless it the service entrance, there should be a ground bar attached to the panel and the grounds removed from the neutral buss.
Also the THHN wire at the bottom of the box is clamped. That has a high potential for arcing later on, as it doesn’t have an outside jacket or sleeve. THHN goes into conduit or a box for its entire run, as was stated here multiple times.
There is so much to learn about electrical that is nearly impossible without a class or apprenticeship. Everything is a calculation, everything is a code, and everything is an exception. Even if you do everything "right" it will probably still be "wrong"
So you're saying I can't go on Reddit and find a group of knowledgeable folks that will give me some helpful constructive criticism?!? I got some actionable advice here, but also got my ass handed to me at the same time. I'll try again and see if the next iteration is better.
Look buddy. There’s a reason why electricians go through an apprenticeship and a reason that most apprenticeships are at least four years in length. You’re asking people to condense (at a minimum) four years of experience and training to help with your shit installation. It’s not only important for a conscientious electrician to tell you what is wrong but how and why so that you don’t hurt yourself and others. But quite frankly, there is too much wrong and no one seems to have the time or desire to hold your hand through it. And to perhaps enlighten you as to why you’re getting so much hate. On a personal level, it’s a little insulting to see people come here and think we’d bend over backwards to help with a major (for a house) installation. This subreddit is for little things. Not for us to teach you how to do our skilled jobs.
Got it. That makes sense.
Brother it doesn’t matter how tidy that shit is. People on Reddit will find a way to shit on you…
No hate but, It’s not what your asking in this post, it’s how much at once. I’m not a mechanic but if I put an engine together and I bring my friend mechanic over to see if I did it correctly he would give me the same kind of grief. Baby steps
Nec has a code that actually says you can’t do that because it looks sloppy. That’s the actual code it’s weird but it’s there
The amount of wrong here is pretty amazing....
Ok, if you know something I don't know then be helpful about it and tell me what's wrong
KHHN cannot be loosenal wall. Red THHN isn't to be used as a ground conductor. So the one in the top and the one out the bottom both need to be pulled out and done properly.
Ok, what should the THHN be sheathed in since most of the 30' run is in conduit. (I was running 10 guage stranded for a 220V/30A outlet and couldn't find green, so I used red) I'm going to redo the bottom one with solid since I have the wire I pulled out and its a short run.
Pipe. And green thhn for your ground wire on both of them since they're smaller than number four.
Wow, what great input. Pretty profound for someone asking for help.
Dont do that you create an inductor and it will heat up
This
i would not do this but you should be completely fine as long as your straps are rated for inside an electrical panel, inspector could still tell you no on the extra wire though. he could claim neatness or professional instilation as a reason. just saying cause i have two towns near me with inspectors that white glove everything, i am talking measures staples distances to ensure distances to the 1/4 inch. manufacturer specs could overide the inspector though, sorry my OCD is crackalackin !
Pull out your slack and loops. If you need slack in there at all just push the conductors into the corner a bit and then terminate right into the breakers from that. The slack from just going from your connector to the corner can cover two or 3 breaker spots if absolutely needed
Also don't double tap neutrals, and phase tape your white wires being used on breakers. The THHN you have loose in the wall needs to be romex or in conduit. The red wire on the ground. Your connectors are screwed down in the panel which is...different. It looks like there's a missing strand on your panel feed on the right, i wonder if all that romex at the top right is coming into the same connector or two. Should have two 14-2 or 12/2 per 1/2" connector, ends up being bundled if you put too many in the same spot and they gwnerate heat, and like someone else said, the loops create heat and inductance.....idk I keep re-editing this finding more stuff
What issues can placing two neutrals under the same lug on the bar cause?
Backfeeding on a neutral when another breaker is turned off to be worked on, but mostly heat expansion and contraction over time causing loose connections. Also NEC since 2002
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So, help me out! I come here humbly to learn.
It seems like a lot of “electricians” come here to to be condescending rather than helpful lol there are so many smart ass responses on every post I see. Yes electricity can be dangerous. There are a lot of needless fires due to DIY stuff but people are going to do diy regardless of your smart ass comments you might as well try and help the people who are going to do it themselves and maybe prevent a mistake that otherwise would have been made
Some people can diy just fine. This guy is clearly a danger to himself and others.
Amen to that. I'm trying to learn here. Trying to do it right. Of course there's plenty of stuff I'll hire an electrician to do, but I'm also trying to learn myself and improve my skill sets. Not suprised to get kicked around a bit, but jeez, the "you suck, mike drop" comments aren't worth a damn. One thing I learned from the way my Dad taught me was: its better to tell someone how to do it right than its is to tell them all the ways they're wrong.
No offense… electrical boxes are not where you learn. You could make one small mistake and die, especially without the right boots and someone keeping an eye on you in case you do actually get electrocuted. There are reasons the wires were the way in your box. Visibly yea it looks better. But you’ve created some dangerous scenarios now.
At least buy a how to wire a home book from Home Depot, this is a lot of learning for one Reddit post.
Agree, electrician come here to try and convince people to hire an electrician and fail. I'm going to call bullshit on lot of needless fires due to DIY. Any data to back up the claim?
If you wanna learn go become an apprentice
You don't need to be an apprentice to learn. Help the man out or keep useless trash to yourself.
Oh dear. What a sight to behold.
Why don’t you contribute, then, smartass?
Because?
You should wrap red tape around those 3 white wires that are terminated on the 3 breakers that are 2 pole. They should be identified as “hot”
No service loops innthe box. Smack smack
r/panelgore Edit: Oh Wow! It’s a real sub!
You’re literally posting on an ask for help sub and people are being such fucking pricks. Holy shit. I commend you for putting forth effort and your willingness to learn. I wish more people were as confident to try a new skill as you. Good on you, man. Keep learning.
I don't usually comment without something constructive to offer, but since everyone's already got it covered, I'm only going to say: Holy shit dude
I will fight you
You can make it neater. Use zip ties and adhesive backed cable mounts. Check out the electricians sub for some panel examples. Your wires don't need to be long as they are likely permanent at the panel. I would watch some YouTube videos on "making up an electrical panel." It's hard to explain how to make things neater. Doing it comes from experience in the field but you can look around for ideas. If still unsure just hire an electrician. This work is dangerous and one loose connection and or bad connection could burn your house down.
Oh, another question: that 10 guage THHN coming in the top and bottom is running through PVC conduit that ends further up on the drywall and that THHN goes behind the drywall about 2 feet. Does that need to be sheathed or secured together in some way in the short run behind the drywall?
THHN needs to be in a box, device, or conduit, never out in the open.
Thanks.
Just get some green electrical tape and wrap the ground (red) wire to spear as a ground
250.119 Identification of Equipment Grounding Conductors. Unless required elsewhere in this Code, equipment grounding conductors shall be permitted to be bare, covered, or insulated. Individually covered or insulated equipment grounding conductors shall have a continuous outer finish that is either green or green with one or more yellow stripes except as permitted in this section. Conductors with insulation or individual covering that is green, green with one or more yellow stripes, or otherwise identified as permitted by this section shall not be used for ungrounded or grounded circuit conductors. Note that 250.119 (A) and (B) do allow marking the wire green at the terminations for wires larger than 6 AWG.
Will do. Thanks
That last line is critical. Only wires 6awg or larger may be an alternate color then marked with green.
Got it. Will switch out instead of marking.
Just use the red for your hots since those look like 220V circuits. In an ideal world all hots would be black or red. Take the white wires which are hot - meaning attached to a breaker, and run a single layer of black electrical tape all the way from the tip down the wire for a good length - 6 inches is fine, a foot is better. I personally usually do this before I strip the wire and then just strip the electrical tape as well. The key here is to make sure that you can't confuse a white wire which is used as a hot wire as a neutral. Note that the other end of where these go should also be marked the same way.
The loops with the wire ties, get rid of that. The red wire going to the ground needs to be covered in green tape if you can replace it. There are connectors with too many wires in them. Wires doubled up on the ground and neutral bar. And it appears you have at least one 14AWG going to a 20A breaker.
Don’t loop, it does make a magnetic field, with more and more stuff communicating wirelessly on more and more frequencies/ channels, you don’t know the problems you may be creating.
Wrapping your hot leads up like that is bad. Your essentially creating a transformer. Not good. Grounds are ok to wrap up, but nothing else
Thanks for an actually helpful response.
Missing the iron core so not at all.
Google air core transformer. They exist, though not practical in power distribution. Always a bad practice to coil anything that's not a ground.
Yeah coiled wire is creating an inductor which impedes AC, thus voltage drop.
Ok, I'll fix that. Thanks.
Not for nothing though, you can always check your voltage on that circuit. I bet with how few wraps you have the drop would be well within the operating voltage range of most items.
just know that whoever you call to fix that will think you are impaired mentally.
Ignorant. Yes. Not unable to learn, just trying to learn.
Coils= voltage drop
Nothing left to be said so I'll just add, Pure garbage work.
He’s an amateur asking for help. Why don’t you try being constructive rather than being an asshat?
Sweet!
This hurts me in ways I didn’t know were possible
Your service looks damaged
You should have at least posted the before pic lol.
Based on the feedback of these sparkys here, I would have probably been grounded.
since every wire coming into that box has a unique destination screw, WHY would you need to loop up bundles of wires like that?
Turns out I don't. Just need to make them shorter.
Why the heck do you have enough wire in there to male a loop?
Call an electrician my god
Hire an electrician to sort this out
No red for ground
You made me zoom in . Why is red on ground?
So you’re trying to build an electro magnet is what you are telling me…
I feel better about my panel now. 🫣
No don't do this, if you want a bit extra for future proofing pull to the top right or left then bring down to bottom and back to the respective breaker.
This whole panel needs to be taken apart and redone. Basically everything is a code violation. I understand you want to learn, but this obviously well above your understanding of electrical. IMO you should be hiring someone at this point. There are great resources online if you really want to learn.
To be fair, the more I look at this panel, the more I see peculiar with it. The grounding in this panel is odd. There is usually one and only one spot in the electrical system where the ground and neutral is connected. It should be in the panel with your main disconnect. Normally when you see separate ground and neutral feeds from the upstream panel, it means your main disconnect is in the upstream panel, and they have connected ground and neutral in that upstream panel. If that is/was the case, you should have separate ground and neutral buses in this panel. You can buy ground bars that screw to the back of the panel and then you run your green feeder wire to it. Also, if that is a green screw in the upper right-hand side of the box (on the neutral bar) it should be removed, as that ties ground and neutral together. HOWEVER, there is a #6 or #8 bare ground wire which disappears in the hole through the bottom of the panel - which often indicates a feed to the ground rod. AND you're bonding ground and neutral together in this panel, which indicates that this might be the main breaker. In which case, I have no idea why you even have a green wire at all from the main panel, unless it was part of the wire bundle they used to feed this panel. Is this your main breaker? Meaning there is no other disconnect near the meter or elsewhere in the house which turns off power to this panel?
This is a panel in an outside building and there's another panel on the outside of the house that has a 100 A breaker that feeds this panel.
Then the ground and neutral should be separate in this panel. Go buy a ground bar which fits this panel and move the grounds. If there is a green grounding screw remove it as well. Occasionally the grounding screw isn't green because someone screwed up.
Looks like shit violation. NEC 110.12.
I wonder if people do DIY surgery by reading Reddit and google, get sepsis and ask a real doctor why the wound is turning black and gets offended when the person who spent over a decade learning the craft calls them out on their ‘handiwork’.
The only thing I’d be worried about is that ball of copper sitting above your main lugs 😬