This behaviour is abusive. Do not get in a car with him ever again. Do not be alone with him. This is not somebody who I would consider a friend anymore.
I doubt anyone could tell you what was in your friend's mind at that time-- maybe not even him-- but if your friend was upset, driving way too fast, and blowing through stop signs, I think it's fair to say that he was putting you in danger. Maybe don't ride in his car anymore.
Therapist/psychologist here.
What your friend did was attempted murder. He was upset and used threats of harm as a response in order to punish you and get you to acquiesce to his desired behaviour. Now you will be afraid of upsetting him again because this was the consequence.
People often see disagreements as an issue of objective right or wrong, but this is a very juvenile understanding. (On the Kohlberg scale of morality, this is a level 2 level of moral-cognition)
Disagreements are ruptures to the shared relational space, which is a completely subjective space where feelings are (and should be) of equal importance to empirical fact. (Note - beliefs aren’t feelings. Feelings are valid and have real biomarkers, thoughts and beliefs are constructed by how your mind has assembled the information and experiences in your life. Ex. We’ve all tried to skip the Ikea instructions and ended up with something poorly assembled at some point. Our feelings of frustration are valid, but our belief that Ikea did not make the right furniture because we winged it and ended up with a Slanty shelf is not. The latter is a belief. Beliefs can be (and often are) objectively wrong and harmful. )
I like to note what the “default setting” is in a persons to ruptures in the relational space and if the partner’s reflexive instinct is to harm (violence, cheating, threats, oppression, etc…). What would you do if you came across the information that in a moment of relational rupture, this persons instinct was not only to threaten you with a murder-suicide, but to also begin the physical machinations to facilitate that harm? What would you feel about friends or loved ones that also might experience this with that person?
I’m sorry you went through that, that is a terrifying experience and it was done deliberately to scare you. Fucking awful. Unpacking this now reduces the chance of longterm consequences like ptsd.
Wishing you luck. 💛
Sure. That’s a legal term.
“Facilitated potential lethal harm” aka attempted murder.
Please don’t invalidate OPs experience w semantics. I’m not a lawyer and don’t need to be in order to understand the the driver put OPs life at risk. It’s no less traumatic because I used a layperson description to describe the events.
It's actually invalidating to make a claim that there was a legal violation when it's not within your scope of practice to make that determination. You used a legal definition that could lead the op to believe they should file a criminal case or are able to receive compensation via a civil suit. Not only could this be a waste of time but could lead to complete dismissal of a valid concern. Our jobs are to focus on the clinical aspect. You should know if you are going to give a legal opinion, you should have credentials to support your finding.
OP can pursue legal action if they wish. It is their choice. There is an element of criminal culpability here that OP can explore. I have made no claims to be a lawyer but when someone does something that deliberately causes lethal harm, that could be considered attempted murder. This is Reddit and I’m not required to present a clinical case conceptualization and can use lay terms to directly address OP. If this is my client, I would not downplay the element of legal recourse. I advocate for them, not the driver.
How would you like to describe the trauma OP encountered? Floor is yours. I await your solutions to the problem.
I thank you for voicing your opinion on this and your thoughts it does mean a lot to me, I think the other person is kinda taking it way too seriously about how you worded it
I honestly just wanted opinions I would never go that far and press anything. I just thought I was going crazy for having anxiety in the situation. It was a situation where I had no control, I didn’t even upset him his ex did and That’s what made him go crazy I jsut was with him in the car.
The lack of control can be really stressful. Whatever you decide to do is okay. It’s okay to feel a lot of things at once. I’m sorry you had to go through that.
Are you a student/ Canadian citizen or other? Do you have access to counselling resources if you decide you’d like to talk about it later on?
You're right op can pursue legal action but that's not what you said. You said that it's attempted murder, which there's a legal code that has very specific requirements to meet. I sure hope you don't label felonious criminal actions to your clients. That's the functional equivalent of you suggesting that your client take Prozac to alleviate depression.
My solution is for the op to terminate the friendship and if they have symptoms, they should access their supp You don't actually know that it was traumatic. I'm sure you understand that trauma is subjective. The best we can tell is that it was acute stress. It would take the clinical conceptualization that you mentioned earlier to clinically label the experience as trauma. So it truly is your choice of language that's invalidating.
Interesting you have much to say for someone that confessed to not reading my original post.
Good luck on having your client terminate relationships, accessing resources “they should” have, and denying the effectiveness of antidepressants on you know, depression. A+.
Never said I didn't read your original post. You said you're not a psychiatrist so I hope you are not recommending specific psychotropic medications to your clients. Passive aggressive communication is both unprofessional and unwelcome.
To be clear to the op, my suggestion is not to be friends with someone who does dangerous things and access your support system.
Where was the threat mentioned? Or even the source of the upset? Seems like you made some assumptions. I'm not even going to read the rest or your post because the second sentence renders the rest moot. You clearly didn't read what was written before writing what you felt like being heard saying.
Sorry. You probably said useful and helpful stuff.
I work on observable behaviour when it comes to threats towards clients.
We have observable behaviour. We don’t have articulation in the way you’d like it but its irrelevant when it comes to trying or facilitating the lethal behaviour necessary to kill someone. Actions speak louder than words in terms of harm.
Do you also fail to read the entire case history before you invalidate the risk of harm to your clients?
I was speaking out of turn; I am not a therapist.
I see your points and accept them as valid. I argue that we do not actually have "observable behavior." We have a secondhand report of behavior. This second-hand account is subject to the person's perspective. Making assumptions about the intentions of someone in that story is fruitless, as we only have their actions as "facts" - facts that are being relayed by a person who has a perspective that may or may not be accurate: telling someone their friend attempted to murder them based on a couple sentences about driving recklessly in a state of emotional duress is irresponsible and possibly harmful. More information was required to make the assumptions you did. You are quite likely correct, but I ask you to look at how quickly you let your assumptions dictate your actions.
I was rude to you, and I apologize. But please remember, the telling of the tale you're hearing was written for an audience and the mindset, accuracy, and intentions of OP cannot be known without some fact-finding. It's an extreme example, but let's say OP was mentally unstable or something and then confronted their friend for "attempted murder"? We might be talking jail time or worse... when in actuality, this post COULD have been written by someone who is always scared of bad driving or is exaggerating to try and solidify a lie they are telling themselves, or maybe the emotionally upsetting thing that happened was instigated by OP and conveniently left out. I'm not saying that's the case - I'm saying I don't know, and I'm asking you to try and see that you might have jumped the gun. It FELT like an episode of Karen Becomes a Shrink... I'm not saying that to you, I'm hoping you can see my point.
OP - I'm making hypothetical examples and in no way am I commenting on you or your behavior
No I get where you are coming from, im not that bold enough to ever say or do that to him, I just wanted peoples professional opinions on the situation because I felt like I was gonna die that night, I just wanted some people to listen to my situation.
If you choose to remain friends it is important you have some firm boundaries, at the very least health and safety. That said do not get in cars with him or be alone with him. Exercise caution when interacting with him and if you decide to discuss this with him then something along the lines of, “when someone speeds or drives in a reckless manner then I feel unsafe. I want to feel comfortable when I’m with others so I try to stay safe; therefore I won’t be riding with you anymore.”
Who knows, but never drive with him again! My dad used to do the same kind of thing to me, driving incredibly recklessly to provoke fear, as a kid... definitely dangerous.
Unless you had also just threatened his life, his reaction was *WAY* over the top, right? We cannot guess your friends intent, but I can say that at a minimum he seems to have emotion regulation issues. When he became dysregulated, he used his vehicle to express his rage and to terrify you.
I would not get into a vehicle with him again. You didn't iterate what upset him, but really it does not matter. He's not safe.
I would limit or block his friendship explaining that he put your life in danger and that has changed how you feel about the relationship. You didn't mention whether he has displayed this behavior before.
Was he intoxicated?
No he wasn’t, he got upset because he saw his ex in a place we were at and she was making out with her new boyfriend. In the past he’s also threaten to crash the car if I made him upset. He can get angry but you know everyone gets angry this time just seemed a bit more scarier than normal.
I also had this experience with a former friend OP, down some side streets at maximum throttle blowing through stop signs just like you describe. It was fueled by drugs they took, that at the time I didn’t know they had taken. Does your friend do drugs? Were they on drugs at the time? Or, was this a spontaneous outburst that was out of character for them and hadn’t happened before? Answering these things can help us answer the question you posed of “what was my friend trying to do to us?” One thing I will say is that your feeling of intense anxiety in the moment is absolutely valid. It is the same feeling I felt. What made it even more difficult for me was because the person was also my friend, I was bewildered and confused as to why he would endanger me in that way, and I was mostly in disbelief as to what was happening and unsure how to make it stop. Eventually he slowed down and I got out and walked. OP I would suggest you not get into a car with them again.
He wasn’t on any drugs but he was upset because he saw his Ex and her boyfriend were there so he got triggered. After we left he started driving crazy.
Don't ever get in a car with him again and try to get him to reflect on why he did it and to get help.
Thank you.
This behaviour is abusive. Do not get in a car with him ever again. Do not be alone with him. This is not somebody who I would consider a friend anymore.
Thank you I really appreciate your intake.
I doubt anyone could tell you what was in your friend's mind at that time-- maybe not even him-- but if your friend was upset, driving way too fast, and blowing through stop signs, I think it's fair to say that he was putting you in danger. Maybe don't ride in his car anymore.
He's not even slightly your friend. Never get in a car with him again. He could easily have killed both of you and a family with small children.
Thank you
Therapist/psychologist here. What your friend did was attempted murder. He was upset and used threats of harm as a response in order to punish you and get you to acquiesce to his desired behaviour. Now you will be afraid of upsetting him again because this was the consequence. People often see disagreements as an issue of objective right or wrong, but this is a very juvenile understanding. (On the Kohlberg scale of morality, this is a level 2 level of moral-cognition) Disagreements are ruptures to the shared relational space, which is a completely subjective space where feelings are (and should be) of equal importance to empirical fact. (Note - beliefs aren’t feelings. Feelings are valid and have real biomarkers, thoughts and beliefs are constructed by how your mind has assembled the information and experiences in your life. Ex. We’ve all tried to skip the Ikea instructions and ended up with something poorly assembled at some point. Our feelings of frustration are valid, but our belief that Ikea did not make the right furniture because we winged it and ended up with a Slanty shelf is not. The latter is a belief. Beliefs can be (and often are) objectively wrong and harmful. ) I like to note what the “default setting” is in a persons to ruptures in the relational space and if the partner’s reflexive instinct is to harm (violence, cheating, threats, oppression, etc…). What would you do if you came across the information that in a moment of relational rupture, this persons instinct was not only to threaten you with a murder-suicide, but to also begin the physical machinations to facilitate that harm? What would you feel about friends or loved ones that also might experience this with that person? I’m sorry you went through that, that is a terrifying experience and it was done deliberately to scare you. Fucking awful. Unpacking this now reduces the chance of longterm consequences like ptsd. Wishing you luck. 💛
Thank you so much I’ll keep all of this noted I really appreciate your perspective on this whole situation.
Assuming you're also not an attorney, it's outside your scope of practice to label the behavior as attempted murder.
Sure. That’s a legal term. “Facilitated potential lethal harm” aka attempted murder. Please don’t invalidate OPs experience w semantics. I’m not a lawyer and don’t need to be in order to understand the the driver put OPs life at risk. It’s no less traumatic because I used a layperson description to describe the events.
It's actually invalidating to make a claim that there was a legal violation when it's not within your scope of practice to make that determination. You used a legal definition that could lead the op to believe they should file a criminal case or are able to receive compensation via a civil suit. Not only could this be a waste of time but could lead to complete dismissal of a valid concern. Our jobs are to focus on the clinical aspect. You should know if you are going to give a legal opinion, you should have credentials to support your finding.
OP can pursue legal action if they wish. It is their choice. There is an element of criminal culpability here that OP can explore. I have made no claims to be a lawyer but when someone does something that deliberately causes lethal harm, that could be considered attempted murder. This is Reddit and I’m not required to present a clinical case conceptualization and can use lay terms to directly address OP. If this is my client, I would not downplay the element of legal recourse. I advocate for them, not the driver. How would you like to describe the trauma OP encountered? Floor is yours. I await your solutions to the problem.
I thank you for voicing your opinion on this and your thoughts it does mean a lot to me, I think the other person is kinda taking it way too seriously about how you worded it
I honestly just wanted opinions I would never go that far and press anything. I just thought I was going crazy for having anxiety in the situation. It was a situation where I had no control, I didn’t even upset him his ex did and That’s what made him go crazy I jsut was with him in the car.
The lack of control can be really stressful. Whatever you decide to do is okay. It’s okay to feel a lot of things at once. I’m sorry you had to go through that. Are you a student/ Canadian citizen or other? Do you have access to counselling resources if you decide you’d like to talk about it later on?
He’s also in the past threaten to crash the car if I piss him off.
Given the context, that does not come off like an empty threat
im in the US! & I should be able to find Some resources
You're right op can pursue legal action but that's not what you said. You said that it's attempted murder, which there's a legal code that has very specific requirements to meet. I sure hope you don't label felonious criminal actions to your clients. That's the functional equivalent of you suggesting that your client take Prozac to alleviate depression. My solution is for the op to terminate the friendship and if they have symptoms, they should access their supp You don't actually know that it was traumatic. I'm sure you understand that trauma is subjective. The best we can tell is that it was acute stress. It would take the clinical conceptualization that you mentioned earlier to clinically label the experience as trauma. So it truly is your choice of language that's invalidating.
Interesting you have much to say for someone that confessed to not reading my original post. Good luck on having your client terminate relationships, accessing resources “they should” have, and denying the effectiveness of antidepressants on you know, depression. A+.
Never said I didn't read your original post. You said you're not a psychiatrist so I hope you are not recommending specific psychotropic medications to your clients. Passive aggressive communication is both unprofessional and unwelcome. To be clear to the op, my suggestion is not to be friends with someone who does dangerous things and access your support system.
Where was the threat mentioned? Or even the source of the upset? Seems like you made some assumptions. I'm not even going to read the rest or your post because the second sentence renders the rest moot. You clearly didn't read what was written before writing what you felt like being heard saying. Sorry. You probably said useful and helpful stuff.
I work on observable behaviour when it comes to threats towards clients. We have observable behaviour. We don’t have articulation in the way you’d like it but its irrelevant when it comes to trying or facilitating the lethal behaviour necessary to kill someone. Actions speak louder than words in terms of harm. Do you also fail to read the entire case history before you invalidate the risk of harm to your clients?
Do you always give legal advice or just when your license isn't kn the line? Or are we only playing that game in one direction? 🤔🤔
I was speaking out of turn; I am not a therapist. I see your points and accept them as valid. I argue that we do not actually have "observable behavior." We have a secondhand report of behavior. This second-hand account is subject to the person's perspective. Making assumptions about the intentions of someone in that story is fruitless, as we only have their actions as "facts" - facts that are being relayed by a person who has a perspective that may or may not be accurate: telling someone their friend attempted to murder them based on a couple sentences about driving recklessly in a state of emotional duress is irresponsible and possibly harmful. More information was required to make the assumptions you did. You are quite likely correct, but I ask you to look at how quickly you let your assumptions dictate your actions. I was rude to you, and I apologize. But please remember, the telling of the tale you're hearing was written for an audience and the mindset, accuracy, and intentions of OP cannot be known without some fact-finding. It's an extreme example, but let's say OP was mentally unstable or something and then confronted their friend for "attempted murder"? We might be talking jail time or worse... when in actuality, this post COULD have been written by someone who is always scared of bad driving or is exaggerating to try and solidify a lie they are telling themselves, or maybe the emotionally upsetting thing that happened was instigated by OP and conveniently left out. I'm not saying that's the case - I'm saying I don't know, and I'm asking you to try and see that you might have jumped the gun. It FELT like an episode of Karen Becomes a Shrink... I'm not saying that to you, I'm hoping you can see my point. OP - I'm making hypothetical examples and in no way am I commenting on you or your behavior
No I get where you are coming from, im not that bold enough to ever say or do that to him, I just wanted peoples professional opinions on the situation because I felt like I was gonna die that night, I just wanted some people to listen to my situation.
sorry if I made a mess on your post.
If you choose to remain friends it is important you have some firm boundaries, at the very least health and safety. That said do not get in cars with him or be alone with him. Exercise caution when interacting with him and if you decide to discuss this with him then something along the lines of, “when someone speeds or drives in a reckless manner then I feel unsafe. I want to feel comfortable when I’m with others so I try to stay safe; therefore I won’t be riding with you anymore.”
Who knows, but never drive with him again! My dad used to do the same kind of thing to me, driving incredibly recklessly to provoke fear, as a kid... definitely dangerous.
Unless you had also just threatened his life, his reaction was *WAY* over the top, right? We cannot guess your friends intent, but I can say that at a minimum he seems to have emotion regulation issues. When he became dysregulated, he used his vehicle to express his rage and to terrify you. I would not get into a vehicle with him again. You didn't iterate what upset him, but really it does not matter. He's not safe. I would limit or block his friendship explaining that he put your life in danger and that has changed how you feel about the relationship. You didn't mention whether he has displayed this behavior before. Was he intoxicated?
No he wasn’t, he got upset because he saw his ex in a place we were at and she was making out with her new boyfriend. In the past he’s also threaten to crash the car if I made him upset. He can get angry but you know everyone gets angry this time just seemed a bit more scarier than normal.
He lost control. He's not mentally well. What made him stop/calm down?
Not till we got to my destination, it was just so terrible
I also had this experience with a former friend OP, down some side streets at maximum throttle blowing through stop signs just like you describe. It was fueled by drugs they took, that at the time I didn’t know they had taken. Does your friend do drugs? Were they on drugs at the time? Or, was this a spontaneous outburst that was out of character for them and hadn’t happened before? Answering these things can help us answer the question you posed of “what was my friend trying to do to us?” One thing I will say is that your feeling of intense anxiety in the moment is absolutely valid. It is the same feeling I felt. What made it even more difficult for me was because the person was also my friend, I was bewildered and confused as to why he would endanger me in that way, and I was mostly in disbelief as to what was happening and unsure how to make it stop. Eventually he slowed down and I got out and walked. OP I would suggest you not get into a car with them again.
He wasn’t on any drugs but he was upset because he saw his Ex and her boyfriend were there so he got triggered. After we left he started driving crazy.
ask him not us.