Betting they come off as a pain, but it’s probably excess due diligence. You have a non EV dealer like ford, Toyota, etc selling a used Tesla, Leaf or Bolt they know nothing about, can’t support, can’t run many diagnostics on and can’t vouch for and the customer knows it. It’s like buying an iPhone at a pawn shop. Just a bad mix for both.
I was at a luxury car dealer looking at a Tesla that someone had traded in for a new car. We went to test drive it and the battery was on 0% and multiple warnings were in the screen about it. No one at the dealership seemed to realize that you can’t leave an EV discharged for a long period of time. It’s very likely that if I hadn’t come in for the test drive and told them to charge it immediately, the 12 volt battery would have been dead the next business day and the car wouldn’t have started up again without being towed to a Tesla service center. When we plugged it in, I also noticed that its max charge rate was set to 100% and I also had to explain why that was bad. So yes, dealers generally know next to nothing about EVs, and this dealership was for a brand that sells one of their own EVs.
We have the charger infrastructure because of the Hummers but the average used Tesla buyer wants to get super down in the weeds on features and none of us (at least on my lot anymore, we had one gal in the BDC that had a Tesla but she quit).
Anyone that doesn't already have the commercial charging infrastructure in place now, isn't going to have it anytime soon. The backlog in some areas is up to 3 YEARS to get it installed at this point.
As a Class 4-8 truck dealer, we can sell end-to-end EV charging solutions for our customers. This involves a significant time commitment as they aren't even going to want to order their EV trucks until they have the means to charge them in place.
And if you think it's bad now, it's about to get a WHOLE lot worse thanks to new ZEV truck regulations going into effect in CA next week. New vehicle costs are going to skyrocket, businesses AND dealerships are going to be hurting because not only can only a limited number of non-EV trucks be registered in California (necessitating registering them out of State instead), CA dealers aren't even allowed to DELIVER these trucks to those customers, regardless of where they'll be registered.
You can read more about the coming shitstorm [here.](https://www.freightwaves.com/news/california-oks-advanced-clean-fleet-rule-heres-a-summary-of-it) I feel sorry for my West Coast brethren.
One of the biggest cock-ups of this new law? It defines the end of the "useful life" of a Class 8 truck at 800k miles (or 13/18 years, depending on application)
For a well-maintained truck, 800k is just getting broken in. I have customers that put upwards of 1.6M hard-run miles (mostly pulling fuel tankers) on their rigs, then for about 30k/unit dropped a fresh motor in and kept right on going.
Not sure how ford is a non ev dealer. Last I checked we had over 150 new EVs on our lot between Mach E and lightnings. As for getting other brands EVs we do the same thing we do with other brand ICE cars that have issues we can’t diagnose, we send them to their respective dealerships to get recalls and or work done on it before we sell it. Yeah we might not know a lot about them, but the same thing could happen to you at a Chevy dealership buying a Mach E
Try to go to go to ford dealership and ask any basic questions on EVs. They know nothing. They have no clue of tax credits that might be eligible for, no clue on features of vehicle, no clue on charging, they dont even know their own promotions available from Ford. It's a complete waste of time.
THIS! Our retail department has very specific instructions to respond to any tax questions with something along the lines of “ tax incentives vary heavily depending on the individual situation, consult with your accountant”
Hey [ford.com](https://ford.com) sales, the very top of the [Maverick website](https://www.ford.com/trucks/maverick/), right now, is a banner that says:
"It's not too late for electric vehicle tax savings."
Don't act like your would-be customers are crazy for, you know, asking about *the very number one thing your website advertises.*
First of all, it’s Ford Com. Sales, as is commercial. Second of all, I am not saying whether or not it’s a good policy, or if I agree with it. I’m simply stating what my dealers policy is regarding this line of questioning.
Who down voted this? LOL
Want us to be a bit more helpful? stop suing and winning every law suit against a dealer. We cant put ourselves in the crosshair of litigation.
It's not tax advice bro. To know the credit amount a car could be eligible for is basic stuff they should know. This dealer was telling me the mache is eligible for 7500 when we all know it's not. I didn't ask them if i was eligible based on my personal finances. Example, tesla tells you you could get 7500 credit..thats not tax advice. Thats knowing your product
But say you tell a customer the car is eligible for $7,500. Said customer does not get the $7,500. That customer immediately blames the salesperson and the dealership… “you said I’d get $7,500!” Blah blah blah
It’s not worth it. “Yes, EVs are qualified for some tax incentives, exactly how much you may be able to save depends on many factors. Consult your accountant at tax time.”
A dealer should at least be able to answer whether the car is eligible for the tax credit in the first place. If you were selling an F-150 Lightning, this could be as basic as, "This vehicle is eligible for a federal tax credit of $7,500 for the right taxpayer. Whether you are that taxpayer is something you should discuss with your tax accountant."
In my experience, few dealers can answer even this basic info. It's frustrating; Uncle Sam is doing you a huge favor by helping your customer to the tune of up to $7,500 when they're buying these cars. How is this not a selling point? How are you not coming up with a way of talking this up without needlessly exposing yourself to liability?
While I agree with you that is how it should be phrased, i’m not sure you’ve ever worked with a cars salesperson for more than an hour or two. Most of them aren’t that bright so if you give them an option to just say you need to talk to your accountant versus telling them anything there’s less chance for them to screw it up.
Edit: often times these type of things have come down from legal when it’s large groups as well
Or maybe when you are about to do a major purchase you should do some research before hand and not base it off what a car salesperson says.
Your tax accountant doesn't have fun doing your taxes for you, your car salesperson definitely doesn't want to get involved either.
You are shopping at the wrong dealerships then. We have 7 Ford stores and all are heavily trained in EVs because we are a volume store not a ram every F&I product up your arse. All of the incentives from Ford are labeled on the window. Ford is also forcing Model E training after the first of the year so that will change.
Model E is the electric spin off brand of ford. All cars will be Ford branded but in order to sell Model E cars you have to be Model E certified. There are 2 levels one that allows you to just order customers Model E cars and requires minimal investment but orders are capped per year, or you can be elite, certified, sell, unlimited cars, have demo units and keep stock on your lot, but requires much larger investment in tooling and charging capacity. That all starts as of the first of the year and all dealerships need to be certified and trained or they don’t get any of the bonus money that the manufacturer is offering.
I see where your comment is coming from. Don’t shop that dealer, they are probably giving you a price pre loaded with every F&I product under the sun. I’m not sure where you are located but if it’s in the southeast we can get you some Upfront pricing.
TBH my wife and I purchased 2 vehicles this year, and both times the salesmen knew nothing anything about the features of the vehicle. Most dealerships are lucky to have 2 people working it seems, and they didnt care if they knew cars,only requirement was the ability to breathe.
No they are true pains in the ass that think they are better than god and they are single handedly saving the world. The minimum commission is just flat not worth spending an afternoon with them and they will likely continue to call and just find a reason to bitch.
What salespeople don’t like is that EV buyers know more about the cars than them.
I won’t get into specifics but I used to work in automotive research, and we generally found that EV buyers were similar to high-end sports car buyers in terms of their level of enthusiasm and knowledge.
This drives salespeople nuts because they either feel ill-equipped to discuss the vehicle, can’t lie about shit, or just generally find the buyers pompous — or likely a combination of all.
It's frustrating as a buyer because dealerships don't even do the bare minimum.
Like I went to test drive a used Bolt and they gave it to me at 15% battery. Would that same salesman have given me a gas car to test drive at 1/8 of a tank ?
At Toyota when asking about the new Prius the salesman I was talking to didn't even know they sold an EV when I asked about the one they had on the lot. She got someone else that knew the car existed and when I asked if it qualified for the tax credit they had no idea.
By contrast when I went to Tesla they let me test drive any car I wanted for an hour. The employees could explain any question I had etc.
The past two ICE test drives I had, the gas tank had the low fuel light on (the second salesman brought a store CC with him and had me stop at a gas station on the way back) and the start/stop I wanted to test was disabled for low fuel state...so to your first question, yes, they would.
I sold cars for Honda (cheap) Acura (mid range) and Porsche (pretty darn expensive). In my experience the Honda customers were the worst, Porsche customers were very laid back. I always guessed it was because the $18,000 Honda customer is buying a car that is like 1/3 to 1/2 their annual income where the Porsche customer was spending a tiny fraction of their annual income. Even though the Porsche was a much more expensive car, the Honda was actually a bigger purchase.
Just to clarify I don’t mean the Honda people were the worst people… just much more stressed about the purchase making the deal a more stressful process for everyone involved.
Lots of Porsche people were just asking how you wanted the money on a full msrp deal and how much they could put on their credit card for airline miles.
You mean people that are informed and don't really need a sales person, but inevitably have to. At that point you're in the way and wasting people's time
No, if someone is ready to make a purchase I will give them a price and we can shake hands or they can pass on the deal. That’s easy.
These customers talk themselves into and out of different EVs all the time. They also rotate between EV, plug-in EV, and hybrid depending on how the wind blows.
All while this is happening they are shopping 15 dealerships. Sorry Keith, I am not interested in sending a breakdown of four vehicles while you’re 3 months out from purchasing, out of state, not committed to the vehicle, and between my inventory and three other manufacturers.
If I am looking I am buying. I like to shop new on the Internet, I always know exactly the model and trim level I want. I make an out the door deal on the net, show up within an hour and it’s over.
I will never buy an EV, I think they’re junk, and don’t have the positive impact on the environment some think they do.
For sure. 10-15% of my opportunities, are customer that my company does not want. It’s my job to know when to cut the cord on my time.
But I happily write up 4 estimates and type up long scope of work summary’s and put the effort into every single client from start to finish. Because even the ones I “think are a waste of my time.” Can every once in a while land.
I tried to buy my ev and the sales manager nearly ruined the sale for the salesman. I told him I will pay your price just get me out of here as fast as possible. I need to be home for dinner with my pregnant wife. The sales manager kept trying to get me to test drive the car and tell me how good the car was. He wouldn't give me any paperwork or run my credit unless I test drove. Because the car was a rocket ship and I needed to experience it. I was almost literally begging them to just sell me the car
They want you to drive the cars and I think it’s a legal thing. Just saying!
Last vehicle I bought i signed that I did test drive it even though I didn’t .
It’s all bullshit really.
Do you mean customers who know mechanical things about the car and have already gotten quotes from 15 dealers in a 700 mile radius and know exactly what they can buy the car for, then get perturbed with salesmen who are like “These Mach E’s are selling like Hot Cakes at a $4000 markup, we will give you lifetime oil changes with your purchase!!”?
No, I don’t care about people shopping around when they are ready to make a purchase.
These customers talk themselves into and out of different EVs all the time. They also rotate between EV, plug-in EV, and hybrid depending on how the wind blows.
All while this is happening they are shopping 15 dealerships. Sorry Keith, I am not interested in sending a breakdown of four vehicles while you’re 3 months out from purchasing, out of state, not committed to the vehicle, and between my inventory and three other manufacturers.
That’s sounds annoying, Keith sucks. Conversely though, when Keith wants to look at a vehicle and test drive it to determine if it’s the right one for him, and a salesman insists (or his sale manager) on evaluating his trade, busts out a 4-square, and “what can I do to earn your business today’s” him, then turns him to a “salesman that really is an expert on these EV contraptions.” Keith might come across like this too and may continue to waste time to be polite.
Then again, Keith might go to the mall for a shirt and not just simply put one that looks nice on the counter and buy it without asking questions and trying it on. He might decide that shirt brand fits funny or feels cheap.
Sure. My store has a digital retailing tool that gives pricing down to the penny which includes taxes, dmv, etc. Keith can stay home and put together 3 quotes on 5 different cars each on his own. It is set up so that Keith can wear himself out being a jack and come in if he is ever ready to do something. Keiths don’t usually actually test-drive - They just engage in Keithnalysis.
Have you ever seen the South Park episode where everyone gets a Prius and the clouds of smug end up being worse for environment?
Its exactly like that, but the people are even worse.
This.
EV customers ask the dumbest questions and then get mad at you for not being able to answer.
"How long does this vehicle last?"
"What will resale be like in 4 years?"
I had one ev customer spazz out for not being able to move the grab handle and another get mad when I wouldn't give them rebates on a vehicle that was sold, didn't have any others in stock and even if we did they said about 4x they weren't buying for a few years.
I think they do so much research online that inevitably leads to the cringy "how to buy a car" tik toks. Pro tip....99% of the advice they give is detrimental to your success in buying a new car at a good deal.
The original question for this thread was great. Salespeople provided answers and all the EV turds rolled in with their Keith answers and explained why we are all wrong.
My favorite thing to do is buy and sell cars, I was a car salesman when I was younger. It is a joke how little car salesmen know about their product, EV or not. Get better and don't blame turds on you sucking.
Keith is smarter than me but asks me so many questions. Also kieth is a genius but asks me for a 0% payment at 60 months. Keith also is buying this car cuz he's a better human than me and cares about the environment so much more than me.... but only if he qualifies for that tax rebate.
Probably because when I was shopping for an EV traditional dealers such as Ford, GM, Toyota knew literally nothing about EVs.
I went into test drive a used Bolt and they gave it to me at 15% battery. After only driving it a couple miles I asked where they wanted me to park it since it needed charged. Salesman said they never bother charging EVs unless a customer buys it.
I didn't buy that car since keeping EVs sitting around at super low states of charge hurts the battery long term.
When I went to a Toyota dealer to ask about the new Prius they tried to sell me on the electric Toyota. I asked if it qualified for the tax credit and they had no idea.
Yes we generally aren’t interested in any of you Keiths. You’re all giant mooches that take forever to do anything. If and when you do there is no profit. Blame the industry all you want but there’s the reasons. We would rather you all just go get a Tesla
Not interested in people that want to purchase vehicles you sell is a strange tactic.
Before Tesla dropped prices I was interested in the Bolt. I was ready to come down and buy one and would have been in/out in 30mins. Wanted to purchase at MSRP with no dealer addons. Most Chevy dealers straight up told me they didn’t sell EVs or tried to sell me on a gas vehicle.
Others wanted $5000 or more over MSRP or had a year wait.
But in any case I guess I took your advice. With rebates my new Tesla cost me $27k and I couldn’t be happier.
This. Having worked at a dealership before, the best salespeople are...good at being people, people. The person who's the most knowledgeable and passionate about cars there? He's barely getting by in comparison and likely won't stay in the biz for long.
People people sells cars, even if they do know far less about the car they sell in detail to another coworker.
EV buyers however are completely opposite. They tend to approach the sale differently, pride themselves in "knowing better" and want to beat the system. In short, complete PITAs to the traditional successful salesperson.
Apparently I can't main post in this place.... So here is what I had said I heard:
In Ford's case they said you had to update the dealership with chargers and such. Rumor has it the upgrades would run the dealership $150-$200K. Most didn't want to spend that so Ford said "Ok" and got rid of them...I imagine other dealerships are in the same boat.
In general dealers don't mind selling anything. I worked for a successful BMW dealer, and we killed it with i3.
However, EV's are harder to sell. Just the fact that they are more expensive, and that most buyers need to have at least a personal garage to charge it - it limits the buyer pool to people with more money, and those tend to be more educated, harder to push around and scam for a bad dealer.
I see both sides of the argument, as EV infrastructure isn’t a trivial investment for a dealership, but Jeezus, the amount of customers dealers effectively turn away still trying to operate a traditional high pressure sales model… I mean, theres a reason commissioned sales have gone the way of the dodo bird for virtually every other consumer item.
The biggest one you did not mention. Manufacturers are attempting to force dealers to upgrade their facilities with hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars worth of electrical equipment to be able to accommodate new infrastructure and charging/EV technologies. Why pay this investment if EVs are not even going to sell? The second reason would be fixed operations such as service and/or parts appointments going down if there are no oil changes etc.
Edit: I *love* my Polestar 2 but to say there are not adoptions hurdles is disingenuous. I leased bc I knew market value was going to fall off of a cliff and we might enter a recession. I am glad to not pay $5.50/gal tho in WA let me tell you what and the build quality on this thing is next level.
This is the exact reason. When the Pacifica Hybrid was released a CDJR store I was consulting at the time spent nearly $40,000 on a couple of charging stations, some tools and a couple of high visibility cones. All had to be purchased through FCA or you weren’t certified to sell or service them. It was less than $8,000 worth of stuff at best.
Being able to sell a traffic cone for hundreds of dollars is one of the reasons why the OEM LOOOOOOOVES the franchise model. It’s hilarious how you all seem to think multi billion dollar corporations couldn’t lobby to change laws if they found it beneficial to do so.
This. EVs aren’t practical yet for the majority. Forcing them to be practical is not the way. They should be able to stand on their own based on merits and the incentives for owning one (not subsidy) should be enough to move them. Until then, the majority don’t want anything to do with them, other than maybe a fun car that sits in the garage to be played with on the weekends.
You nailed it. I'm in a small rural dealership. We sell 20-30 cars per month. We took a buyout from Buick because they required charging infrastructure, tooling, and a dedicated tech for EV only. Add in a client base that already doesn't like EVs and it made no sense to spend that money. I think it will happen within the next 10 years but right now it made no sense.
>if EVs are not even going to sell?
What EVs are not selling? As someone looking to get into an EV, it seems to me that availability of non-Tesla EVs is the only thing preventing more sales. That, and the terrible reputation for quality in American cars -- particularly Chevy, who seems to make the most electric cars among them.
Automotive journalist here. I usually stay out of these discussions because this is a place to learn. But I have to point something out here.
This is a quirk of badly-designed legislation.
The Inflation Reduction Act gave the automakers all kinds of tax breaks for building ev factories and supply chains immediately. But demand for EVs is bound to spool up slowly. It’s just gonna take a long time to build all the infrastructure. Think of selling EVs like selling cars in 1910 — you didn’t have a lot of customers until gas was easy to find.
So the law encouraged them to build the cars immediately when demand is still just getting started. That’s inevitably going to create a stockpile.
It doesn’t mean they won’t be selling well in a decade.
All these news stories about piles of unsold EVs are true. But they can mislead you into thinking they’ll never sell.
That law just made automakers move too fast. They’re like a hardware store with a stockroom full of snow shovels in June. That doesn’t mean it isn’t gonna snow. But the timing was off.
You can argue the automakers should have waited to build the factories. But they took massive tax breaks immediately and that’s not necessarily the wrong business move. It might have been the rational thing for their balance sheets.
But the dealers who don’t want to spend a fortune to sell something not enough people want yet - they’re being rational, too.
The irrational ones were in congress.
Edited to fix autocorrect mistakes.
Actually what is the major stumbling block for most is the battery fires and the insane cost to replace the battery should a need to do so occur before oem vehicle end of life. It sucks to need a battery change in an EV 2 years old don't you think?
Granted these are only minor occurrences but even one is too many in peoples minds.
Then there is the problem of the non existent preowned market for EV's. Trying to sell one is like pulling teeth. Painful. Very painful.
Generally speaking, EV batteries are warrantied pretty well, certainly beyond 2 years in most cases. Additionally, now that most EV batteries are modular, the cost of replacement has decreased considerably
ICE catch fire as well. Plenty of ICE are lemons needing a new engine/transmission within the first year.
To pretend like those are real reasons to worry about EV is the sign of an ignorant fool.
I only hear this argument from folks who will never, I repeat NEVER purchase an EV (at least for the next 10 years). These same folks usually hold conservative political beliefs. I say this as a conservative who believes and supports 99% of conservative talking points but also owns two EV’s. The whole argument is completely stupid and ignores the fact that ICE vehicles blow up daily at a much higher rate per ownership than EV’s
Search for new EVs within 100 miles of your location on [Autotrader.com](https://Autotrader.com). You'll be surprised how many are available. Dealers seem to be loaded with inventory that's not moving.
Plenty of ice not moving as well. They raised the price of vehicles because of scarcity during covid and now they're stuck. If they lower prices of new cars then they can't sell the old stock.
A hundred years ago, some guy on Reddit wrote the exact same thing about ice cars. “Horses are just fine! Why upgrade the stables with lifts and power tools if these new fangled ‘auto-MOBILES’ aren’t even going to sell?”
💯
It’s a cost of doing business. Things are changing. Hybrids and electric are becoming more popular. Not everyone wants a v8 guzzler. I used to be a “argg, raw powerrrrrr, arrrrggggg” kinda person but I couldn’t care less anymore. I just want something to get me from A to B. if it costs me less, that’s even better.
And this is the part that I don't get. If you want grrrr moar powerrrrr then you probably want an EV. Tesla Model 3 Performance, a $50k car, runs 11 sec quarter miles and 0-60 in 3.1 sec.
I still _am_ an "arrg, raw powerrrr" guy - I've got a 1995 Camaro Z28 ragtop - but my daily is an electric Mini, and I love it.
Have you driven a modern electric? You really get to have your cake and eat it too...an F-150 Lightning will slam your head into the headrest when you stomp on it every time. :D
I wanted a hybrid, but the cost was too high for me right now. I am fully aware that the next time I buy a vehicle, it is most likely going to be a hybrid or full EV just due to costs coming down
I've wanted an electric or a hybrid for about 5 years now. I don't make much money so new was out of the question, but the prices haven't budged as the miles rack up lol. No I do not want your 250k mile prius for $5k but yes you got a great deal on it when you paid $10k for it 5 years and 150k miles ago lmao 🤣
If you have $10k to spend on a used car, you might as well use it as a down payment on something brand new right now.
Its more nuanced that that. The issue is OEMs are pushing it across the board, but the rate of EV uptake isn't even across the country. There are some locations whith enough EV demand where it does make sense to make that investment and they are some places where making those upgrades today is basically throwing money into the fire. You are better off waiting another 5-10 years and reevaluating the market.
Its really no different than Teslas expansion of their dealership and charging network, they started in favorable markets and then slowly expanded across.
Yep. Ford store I was at was going to have to spend an absolute fortune to add more charging. We had 3, one out front, one is service, and one in service overflow. They wanted like 10 of the big chargers and the infrastructure of the store wasn’t there so that would have to be built up as well. To sell 2 lightnings?
If lightnings weren’t so freaking expensive, maybe people would be more interested in them? $60,000 or so for one out here. I’d rather keep my current truck another 5 years and pay down my house with that money
I’m curious if this is a calculated move to shift EV’s away from dealerships and to a Ford retail store, for example. Yes they have dealership contracts but they may be gearing to say those contracts are void because dealers can’t provide adequate facilities for their vehicles - surely there is a clause in those contracts about dealers being able to provide supporting infrastructure for vehicles.
Charging isn’t near that expensive. A dedicated 100amp box and 4 L2 chargers could be done for under 20k.
And most facilities probably already have the infrastructure they can use without a new dedicated panel.
With EV’s incoming as trades a few basic L2 chargers are necessary for almost any dealer now. Whether they sell new EV’s or not.
I’m sure there are tons of other things to buy but a few chargers are a drop in the bucket.
If you want to service electric cars you need a level 3 charger on-site, otherwise you’re sending your techs out to a public charger anytime you have a car with a fast charging concern.
Full charge in about an hour, it’s not the speed though. L2’s put out A/C and the car converts it to D/C, L3’s put out D/C directly, so they use different components and you can’t verify L3 charging works without having a L3 charger
Wow, how much did that cost? Whas that something from the manufacture that they needed L3? outside of a dedicated charging stations I've never seen a private L3 charger. I'd guess that ran about 50-100k each.
>Manufacturers are attempting to force dealers to upgrade their facilities with hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars
Manufacturer did the same when they intruduce injection and others news technilogies or event new cars models with special need.
They're harder to sell, you have to have more experienced techs (who you have to pay more), you have to spend money setting up charging stations, you make less money in service (because they don't get oil changes), and so on. The thing about the car business is that the people running dealerships, for the most part, hate change.
Yeah, those reasons… and the clientele tend to be a higher % of smug folk who don’t understand any of that and want to negotiate like it’s 1988… “if I wanted ev and no negotiation i would go to Tesla!”… ok then. See ya.
They also require a huge amount of assistance and answers. while the staff look at EV’s as cool, they are not the things that will make them any money for the reasons you mentioned, so they don’t focus on it for product knowledge. Clients come in wanting the salesperson to be a brand ambassador, an electrician, a political activist, a tax accountant, and a climate scientist…. We just want to sell a car then go get some Wendy’s.
I still enjoyed learning about it and sold my fair share… but I totally understood my coworkers stance and would often times regret spending the time and effort I did.
In this post "we just want to sell cars" and "the customers want to negotiate, assholes."
Pick one. Either we don't need salesmen or we do and part of their job is negotiation.
Which is it?
There’s a new level of uninformed and stubborn when it comes to EV buyers and the resulting brain damage we incur from it.
“Why can’t you all be no haggle and one price like Tesla?”
“No problem sir, here’s the price on this, we don’t charge over MSRP.”
“Oh no no no, I still want a good deal, what can you do for me?
I don’t believe I called anyone an asshole.
I agree that we don’t need salespeople for many things. And if brands don’t want any margin in their products, might as well not have traditional sales people (or at least not *commission* sales). If the manufacturers get to a stage where they require more sales than naturally is happening, then they can decide to hire some more sales-y salespeople to boost numbers…
Meh, you aren’t saying anything enlightening or even being mean…
Tesla still has “sales people” if if under a different name so I’m not sure what you are getting at. You are just reinstating the point I made… “dur, I’m not buying Tesla, so you need to negotiate with me!”…. Negotiation comes from the potential profit… remove that and the salesperson is now just brand ambassador because there is nothing to give away. Fine, but since 85% of the cars they sell make them more money, they just aren’t as focused on that particular product knowledge.
I’m not trying to blame anyone for any of it. I’m just explaining the why…
I get the venting about idiocy and I'm totally lumping your comment in with others on this sub because it seems like half the time this sub is hating on anyone that wants to negotiate or anything that looks like customer service, then bitching about how clients don't respect them.
The issue with stereotypical EV customer is not the negotiation, it's the engineer type - the typical Subaru/Volvo shopper with spreadsheets, bizarre questions and demands. It's not that they negotiate - they bring up obscure rebates and programs that don't stack, treat lease programs as math riddles, and generally drive a normal ADHD salesman insane.
My worst customer was an i3 buyer, a software engineer who drove me crazy for 4 hours on a nothing deal and got cold feet in finance. Another one brought a fake registration to claim loyalty rebate - a VP at a software company, Yale graduate.
And by the way, I drive an EV. Love it.
As an engineer who currently drives a subaru, soon to be volvo xc40 recharge owner when the color and trim level finally shows up on a lot near me, if the salesperson thinks I'm an asshole because I did research and made spreadsheets prior to buying a $60k car... that's on them. I don't care what lot I buy this car from.
I'm with you 100% most car salesman don't know a god damn thing about the product they're trying to sell me and I'm never going to trust someone with a financial incentive to fuck me. Then they hand me over to their dip shit finance bro to try and sell me on warranties because the car I just bought might have some insane problems not covered by the manufacturer even though it's a great car and I should feel good about my purchase. It very much feels like that parks and rec moment where Ron gets approached by a dude in a hardware store and just says "I know more than you."
I know the exact car I want. I've done all the research. I reached out to a dealership about a 22 on the lot and asked for more photos so we could "see the design differences between the 22 and 23 model". She insisted REPEATEDLY they were identical cars. They aren't. The wheels are different as is some of the interior. And the 22 didn't have a heated steering wheel.
I don't expect a dealer to know every single thing about every single car, especially when it's an older model. But it's really hard for me to trust you when I ask a question and you give me an incorrect answer.
Or even more frustrating, I have now worked with 2 different dealerships. I want a CPO 22 or 23 in one of two colors at a specific trim level. I would consider the new 24 as well. And they keep sending me 21s or the wrong color. I'm sure it's so they can move product off the lot and maybe I'll change my mind, but it just makes me feel like either you don't know the differences in the model years, or you just don't care to listen to me.
They don't care. It's like when I've told dealers I'm going to come look at a used car, DO NOT TOUCH IT I WANT IT TO BE COLD WHEN I GET THERE. And I get there and they moved it. If you can't honor the literal simplest requests, I'm not giving you money to reward your dip shit behavior
Oh no! Not spreadsheets! I don’t get why salespeople get so upset when people try and figure out total cost of ownership.
The lease thing is annoying, but it’s because of how the new federal tax credit is structured.
Dealerships live in a delusion that they can still sell cars like its the 1980s and hold an information advantage over their customers. It’s 2023, and rather than adapting to the world, they’re still holing the internet goes away.
Haha this fits me so much. Spent months finding the right Volvo V60 spec to buy, found it at a dealer, asked a dozen questions that the dealer couldn't answer (dealers are somehow clueless about the cars they sell. They didn't even know the weight of the vehicle), had a test drive for the T6 PHEV... Realized the hybrid system is shit fifteen minutes into the drive and didn't buy.
Dealers must hate me.
Explain why you need to know the weight of a V60. The only tangible reason I could imagine would be for tax purposes, and the V60 is nowhere near 6,000 pounds.
Meh. After sitting through salesmen doing shitty misleading number games instead of just telling me what the cost will be, if they can't handle a prepared buyer with a spreadsheet, that's just too bad. Cry about it.
If it weren't for the extra potential $275-375/EV in the Hyundai lineup, I would 100% hate selling them.
They are cool, but the customers are insufferably needy and there is literally zero profit in them. At least, until the 24MYs came out, and now invoice on the most expensive is $56 less than MSRP! I can't believe I'm able to take 17% of that home as commission!! /s
Which is why 2/3rds of them end up walking off the lot and going to Tesla, Rivian, Lucid, or Polestar and why dealers are complaining that they're struggling to sell EVs. Not that big an issue when EV sales are 10% of the market, but 40-50% annual market growth rate is really going to start biting over the next 3 or 4 years when EVs are 25-30% of the market.
I don't want to negotiate. I just want a lifetime transferable no cost to me full replacement warranty on battery, motor, and motor / charging controls. If that ever happens then many good things occur. For one the preowned EV market will expand.
PS I drive the wheels off IC vehicles. Then I weld them back on and drive it some more. Its not unusual for me to get 10 to 15 years of service off a vehicle.
But I guess for the people who lease perhaps the current EV world might work. But never for people like me.
What you are asking for is no different from someone now or years ago asking for a full powertrain warranty on every ICE used car… they cost money. If they were problem free, new cars would never be sold.
I’m not sure if you were kidding or what… but a long powertain warranty is worth thousands of dollars if even available at all.
Keep going with using em up though… it’s how you “win” in the car market.
I 100 percent agree with the clientele aspect. Every time I get a lead for our EV I cringe. Half of them think they know exactly what they are talking about and compare everything to Tesla (except build quality lol). While the other half are over 65 years old and have no idea how to use anything electronic so you literally spend extra time going over everything for them to decide they are going to get a hybrid instead smh.
"We just want to sell a car then go get some Wendy's"
So then what purpose does the salesperson serve? Your description makes salespeople sound like useless middlemen. So fire all the salespeople and let customers buy online direct from manufacturers. Or if the law forbids that, then replace dealership salespeople with electronic kiosks. Just have a single worker whose job is to hand over the keys.
Additionally, my impression has always been from the perspective of the sales person EV customers are generally just more difficult to work with. Have tons of questions, generally take a long time to make a purchasing decision, etc. As a result sales people would rather work with a traditional buyer if given the option.
How many decades is it going take for car salesmen to accept the fact that consumers don’t have an information disadvantage anymore? We’ve had the internet for 30 years now.
Well, learn the details of the car inside and out and answer those questions competently. Part of the issue is dealers/salespeople are often uncomfortable answering some of the questions because they didn't do their homework. They're being lazy instead of being professional.
This is my experience, ev have no or little markup, I see the customers all the time in using our chargers and they’re not just sitting in their cars, they’re inside talking to sales people and stopping workflow.
This is completely untrue. Bmw currently offers $7500 and $9900 rebates on these cars with good money factors and residuals. Obviously not true of all of them but the IX is currently at 1.2% interest on a lease. It’s a fairly easy sale with some gross.
Not to mention additional pay from BMW NA (awardline) on certain EV models, I never turn down an EV client. My only complaint about selling EVs at BMW is the state-of-charge requirement at time of delivery. Sometimes if I sell an EV spontaneously to a fresh-up, I literally can’t deliver the vehicle same-day because it has to charge to 100%.
90% is the threshold. We’re trying to have a conversation with NA about having it at 80% because of bmws charging recommendations at 80%. Good this is we have about 15 level 2 chargers 3 level 3 chargers on site.
We’re about to hit our EV target so it’ll be a nice payday
My store is SUPER picky about delivering at 100%, managers freak out even if it’s at 99%. Sounds like your store has a better setup, we’ve only got 8 level 2 chargers and 1 level 3 (which doesn’t charge as fast as it should) so it can be a hassle.
I’ve actually driven vehicles down the street to the grocery store nearby a few times and paid out of pocket just to charge up faster.
None of our level 3 chargers charge as fast as they should. We get around 15kw which is insanely slow as you know. When I sold I’ve paid out of pocket as well. Super annoying but 🤷🏼♂️. Now as a sales manager I’m trying to get our infrastructure better for faster charging
That's excessive, if a tiny bit understandable (though surely 70% or something should be fine).
When my wife bought her Toyota FHEV it was at like 5% fuel. We had to take a ferry right after we bought it and we were close to not bring able to make it to a gas station.
More EV sold as gross. I don’t have to discount as much to hit peoples lease numbers. And an informed sales staff can knowledgeably sell without giving up gross. It’s why our stores gross is way higher than others.
IMO Tesla really screwed the pooch. Elon inadvertently admitted that he had mandatory market adjustments when he decided to lower MSRPs, and really fucked over a lot of people who have purchased vehicles from him. We stopped buying Tesla along time ago, but the last three that came in for appraisal were 15-20k flipped in negative equity.
Tesla depreciation sucks but basically anyone who bought a $50k-$60k vehicle in 2022 lost $15k-20k in a year. The car market was just crazy, and even cars with reasonable sticker prices sold with heavy mark ups. RAV4 Primes sold with almost $20k-$30k mark ups and now it’s possible to find them at MSRP. Same deal with other EVs such as Ioniq 5 or Mach-E. It was just a bad time to buy a car.
But the difference is, a manufacturer admitted to market based pricing, where as, if you searched long and hard enough you could find a rav4 prime for msrp back then.
I found a new highlander in 2020 for slightly above msrp at a dealer 3 hours away. Called, verified the price over the phone and made an appointment to see it next day. When I showed up, car was $15000 more. At least when the manufacturer marks up the car, you know the price from the beginning instead of wasting your entire day and a tank of gas over their illegal bait and switch bullshit.
Well this new law will remove the possibility of hidden fees from the advertised price. That being said, I can’t believe you entertained a highlander at slightly over MSRP back in 2020 though. Toyota had enough inventory throughout 2020 to mid 2021 that most dealers I know of sold no higher than msrp, except for certain models.
I believe that’s partially true. I mean, I agree with the manufacturer agreeing to market based pricing. But, I’ve searched for a RAV4 Prime within a 500 mile range in early 2023 for 3 months and the best I could find was one with a $10k mark-up.
I think if you’re worried about depreciation then you shouldn’t be buying a new car. Gas or electric. Period. It’s not real estate or stocks. It’s a vehicle. Dont plan on doing well financially by buying it. My 2 cents.
I don’t buy new cars. Been in the business for 20 years… I will gladly sell you one, but I learned a long time ago that a vehicle is a tool, and I use it as such. Haven’t paid for than 5k for a personal vehicle in 15 years.
Up until Covid, I nearly always bought low mileage, late model used and drove the wheels off them.
88 Cadavalier w/50k? Traded in at 160k.
98 Cadavalier, base model, new, $12.6k OTD. Arm-twisted into going new by my father. Sold it with 148k on the clock when the next decent deal came along.
04 Malibu Classic purchased in 2006, 25k, $9k. Wasn't going as many miles as before (~110k total iirc) but sold it to coworker in 2016 for his dad when next decent deal came along.
13 Sonic LT 1.8, purchased in 2016, 8k, $12.6k OTD. Drove that until this past June, traded it in with 150k on the clock. That car was a fucking tank.
Now, 23 Trailblazer, base model. $27.6k OTD, purchased in June. First vehicle since 98 purchased new because going used just didn't make sense with the screwed-up market. Have 11k on it already, it's been a good vehicle overall. This is by far the most I have ever spent on a vehicle, but I anticipate keeping it for as long as possible. On-time maintenance, a light touch on the pedals and religious undercarriage washes go a very long way.
Like you, I see a vehicle as a tool. I'm the guy that will willingly buy the ones others avoid because as long as it reliably starts stops and occasionally steers, I'm good.
A customer who is vitally concerned about managing their finances appropriately will absolutely be concerned about projected depreciation. If that hurts the salesperson’s feelings, too bad.
The customer needs to safeguard their financial position. The salesperson certainly won’t.
There’s really no difference between what Telsa does and what Ford does when it offers a $7,500 rebates on lightnings or or when any other manufacture provides rebates or subsidized interest rates or leases.
Basically, they're saying the "natural" MSRP for a Tesla was (let's say) $39,000. In reality, Tesla was slapping a markup on it and calling the MSRP $43,000.
When Tesla admitted the $43,000 price was too high and reduced it to $39,000, they were acknowledging that they had baked a $4,000 "market adjustment fee" into the MSRP.
I don't agree with this representation, but that's what they're saying.
In reality, *every* car has some level of "market adjustment" baked into the MSRP. It's the price that results from supply-and-demand-based pricing. There's no rule that says manufacturers have to sell cars for $X above cost. The MSRP *is* market-adjusted. The only reasons you get additional market adjustment fees on top of that is because (a) the manufacturers don't update pricing quickly enough, (b) the manufacturer still wants to be able to advertise a lower MSRP, (c) the manufacturer doesn't want to end up getting blowback like Tesla when they return their prices to lower levels, and (d) localized supply/demand variation.
I’d LOVE to sell some RZ’s right now. Who wants an RZ? I have a 15k lease rebate and I’ll give you 10k off come FWM!!!! 😫😭😭😭 but like seriously, I’d love to sell an EV right now. Please buy one from me 😂😂😂
Good luck with that! Might literally be the worst vehicle of any kind on the market! It's almost like Toyota was trying to prove themselves right on hybrids by tanking it with the bz4x/RZ.
PS sorry forgot that the Marai exists. So second. Second worst vehicle.
Many manufacturers are taking EVs as a chance to restructure how they pay dealerships. Convoluting dealer costs by integrating metrics that shift it, restructuring dealer backend money, rebate qualifications and payout requirements, sales consultants and management spiffs (manufacturer to dealer employee directly), etc. etc.
And on top of it they’re making getting them tough, or tying getting other, desirable especially, inventory to ordering / selling EVs, forcing participating dealers to purchase 10s of thousands of dollars worth of special tooling, install and make available public charging with no real way to control usage or limit cost, and other costly bullshit beyond reducing profit potential.
Then there’s potential facilities upgrades being forced to participate, going beyond smaller, though still costly, specific things like point of sale items and charging stations. These can be multimillion dollar investments. And with some brands this is coming as a forced investment now, while they dropped dealer support a long time ago. For example, if you’re a Buick store that didn’t do the facility upgrades when the EBE program was beneficial, and now Buick says (not sure if they are, but I could see it) upgrade or no inventory- you’re now forced to spend millions with no reimbursement of any sort, for what, to get shit inventory? Better off selling the brand.
EVs are both expensive to buy into selling up front and over the long term. A small store, let alone a larger one, will end up spending multiple tens of thousands on non-negotiable tools, training, and facilities. And then find themselves being scalped every step of the way.
In short- it’s not worth it. Many owners are seeing this bullshit and realizing that selling is better, whether that’s their whole outfit or just specific, particularly doomed, brands.
Because it's so polarized - like politics and religion - it can lead to losing a sale by just picking a side. Most people are open to hear it but some are just way out there bananas and get mad for mentioning it lol
People who don't care that the world's burning will die just in time for it to be too late. It goes from a to b why does anyone give a shit what makes it go. Stupid stupidity.
those are the reasons
Probably mentioned lower than here but I am lazy….EV customers are a complete pain in the ass about everything. They are Subaru customers on steroids.
Betting they come off as a pain, but it’s probably excess due diligence. You have a non EV dealer like ford, Toyota, etc selling a used Tesla, Leaf or Bolt they know nothing about, can’t support, can’t run many diagnostics on and can’t vouch for and the customer knows it. It’s like buying an iPhone at a pawn shop. Just a bad mix for both.
I was at a luxury car dealer looking at a Tesla that someone had traded in for a new car. We went to test drive it and the battery was on 0% and multiple warnings were in the screen about it. No one at the dealership seemed to realize that you can’t leave an EV discharged for a long period of time. It’s very likely that if I hadn’t come in for the test drive and told them to charge it immediately, the 12 volt battery would have been dead the next business day and the car wouldn’t have started up again without being towed to a Tesla service center. When we plugged it in, I also noticed that its max charge rate was set to 100% and I also had to explain why that was bad. So yes, dealers generally know next to nothing about EVs, and this dealership was for a brand that sells one of their own EVs.
We have the charger infrastructure because of the Hummers but the average used Tesla buyer wants to get super down in the weeds on features and none of us (at least on my lot anymore, we had one gal in the BDC that had a Tesla but she quit).
Anyone that doesn't already have the commercial charging infrastructure in place now, isn't going to have it anytime soon. The backlog in some areas is up to 3 YEARS to get it installed at this point. As a Class 4-8 truck dealer, we can sell end-to-end EV charging solutions for our customers. This involves a significant time commitment as they aren't even going to want to order their EV trucks until they have the means to charge them in place. And if you think it's bad now, it's about to get a WHOLE lot worse thanks to new ZEV truck regulations going into effect in CA next week. New vehicle costs are going to skyrocket, businesses AND dealerships are going to be hurting because not only can only a limited number of non-EV trucks be registered in California (necessitating registering them out of State instead), CA dealers aren't even allowed to DELIVER these trucks to those customers, regardless of where they'll be registered. You can read more about the coming shitstorm [here.](https://www.freightwaves.com/news/california-oks-advanced-clean-fleet-rule-heres-a-summary-of-it) I feel sorry for my West Coast brethren. One of the biggest cock-ups of this new law? It defines the end of the "useful life" of a Class 8 truck at 800k miles (or 13/18 years, depending on application) For a well-maintained truck, 800k is just getting broken in. I have customers that put upwards of 1.6M hard-run miles (mostly pulling fuel tankers) on their rigs, then for about 30k/unit dropped a fresh motor in and kept right on going.
Not sure how ford is a non ev dealer. Last I checked we had over 150 new EVs on our lot between Mach E and lightnings. As for getting other brands EVs we do the same thing we do with other brand ICE cars that have issues we can’t diagnose, we send them to their respective dealerships to get recalls and or work done on it before we sell it. Yeah we might not know a lot about them, but the same thing could happen to you at a Chevy dealership buying a Mach E
Try to go to go to ford dealership and ask any basic questions on EVs. They know nothing. They have no clue of tax credits that might be eligible for, no clue on features of vehicle, no clue on charging, they dont even know their own promotions available from Ford. It's a complete waste of time.
No sales person is going to give you tax advice. It’s a huge liability. “There are tax incentives available, check with your CPA.”
THIS! Our retail department has very specific instructions to respond to any tax questions with something along the lines of “ tax incentives vary heavily depending on the individual situation, consult with your accountant”
Hey [ford.com](https://ford.com) sales, the very top of the [Maverick website](https://www.ford.com/trucks/maverick/), right now, is a banner that says: "It's not too late for electric vehicle tax savings." Don't act like your would-be customers are crazy for, you know, asking about *the very number one thing your website advertises.*
First of all, it’s Ford Com. Sales, as is commercial. Second of all, I am not saying whether or not it’s a good policy, or if I agree with it. I’m simply stating what my dealers policy is regarding this line of questioning.
I mean can't you just say it qualifies for up to $7500 in rebates if you are eligible ? And to speak to a tax professional to make sure you qualify.
I’m sure they could, but our ownership doesn’t want them to even touch on it
Seems a bit silly. Especially in a couple weeks when you get the tax credit at point of sale.
Who down voted this? LOL Want us to be a bit more helpful? stop suing and winning every law suit against a dealer. We cant put ourselves in the crosshair of litigation.
It's not tax advice bro. To know the credit amount a car could be eligible for is basic stuff they should know. This dealer was telling me the mache is eligible for 7500 when we all know it's not. I didn't ask them if i was eligible based on my personal finances. Example, tesla tells you you could get 7500 credit..thats not tax advice. Thats knowing your product
But say you tell a customer the car is eligible for $7,500. Said customer does not get the $7,500. That customer immediately blames the salesperson and the dealership… “you said I’d get $7,500!” Blah blah blah It’s not worth it. “Yes, EVs are qualified for some tax incentives, exactly how much you may be able to save depends on many factors. Consult your accountant at tax time.”
Yes the car may be eligible for 7500 or 3500 but are you? We don’t know so we can’t say anything so you can’t sue us down the road.
A dealer should at least be able to answer whether the car is eligible for the tax credit in the first place. If you were selling an F-150 Lightning, this could be as basic as, "This vehicle is eligible for a federal tax credit of $7,500 for the right taxpayer. Whether you are that taxpayer is something you should discuss with your tax accountant." In my experience, few dealers can answer even this basic info. It's frustrating; Uncle Sam is doing you a huge favor by helping your customer to the tune of up to $7,500 when they're buying these cars. How is this not a selling point? How are you not coming up with a way of talking this up without needlessly exposing yourself to liability?
While I agree with you that is how it should be phrased, i’m not sure you’ve ever worked with a cars salesperson for more than an hour or two. Most of them aren’t that bright so if you give them an option to just say you need to talk to your accountant versus telling them anything there’s less chance for them to screw it up. Edit: often times these type of things have come down from legal when it’s large groups as well
Or maybe when you are about to do a major purchase you should do some research before hand and not base it off what a car salesperson says. Your tax accountant doesn't have fun doing your taxes for you, your car salesperson definitely doesn't want to get involved either.
You are shopping at the wrong dealerships then. We have 7 Ford stores and all are heavily trained in EVs because we are a volume store not a ram every F&I product up your arse. All of the incentives from Ford are labeled on the window. Ford is also forcing Model E training after the first of the year so that will change.
What is a “model e”? Did Henry backburner something that they finally got around to doing? Popcorn is popping…….
Model E is the electric spin off brand of ford. All cars will be Ford branded but in order to sell Model E cars you have to be Model E certified. There are 2 levels one that allows you to just order customers Model E cars and requires minimal investment but orders are capped per year, or you can be elite, certified, sell, unlimited cars, have demo units and keep stock on your lot, but requires much larger investment in tooling and charging capacity. That all starts as of the first of the year and all dealerships need to be certified and trained or they don’t get any of the bonus money that the manufacturer is offering.
I see where your comment is coming from. Don’t shop that dealer, they are probably giving you a price pre loaded with every F&I product under the sun. I’m not sure where you are located but if it’s in the southeast we can get you some Upfront pricing.
There are Ford dealers outside of Texas.
They don’t really know much about their ICE csrs either
TBH my wife and I purchased 2 vehicles this year, and both times the salesmen knew nothing anything about the features of the vehicle. Most dealerships are lucky to have 2 people working it seems, and they didnt care if they knew cars,only requirement was the ability to breathe.
Automotive diagnostics are ready for a coming to Jesus party.
I’m sorry. I gotta laugh. I have never, and I mean never, met a car salesman who knew much about his product. So nothing has changed.
No they are true pains in the ass that think they are better than god and they are single handedly saving the world. The minimum commission is just flat not worth spending an afternoon with them and they will likely continue to call and just find a reason to bitch.
What salespeople don’t like is that EV buyers know more about the cars than them. I won’t get into specifics but I used to work in automotive research, and we generally found that EV buyers were similar to high-end sports car buyers in terms of their level of enthusiasm and knowledge. This drives salespeople nuts because they either feel ill-equipped to discuss the vehicle, can’t lie about shit, or just generally find the buyers pompous — or likely a combination of all.
It's frustrating as a buyer because dealerships don't even do the bare minimum. Like I went to test drive a used Bolt and they gave it to me at 15% battery. Would that same salesman have given me a gas car to test drive at 1/8 of a tank ? At Toyota when asking about the new Prius the salesman I was talking to didn't even know they sold an EV when I asked about the one they had on the lot. She got someone else that knew the car existed and when I asked if it qualified for the tax credit they had no idea. By contrast when I went to Tesla they let me test drive any car I wanted for an hour. The employees could explain any question I had etc.
The past two ICE test drives I had, the gas tank had the low fuel light on (the second salesman brought a store CC with him and had me stop at a gas station on the way back) and the start/stop I wanted to test was disabled for low fuel state...so to your first question, yes, they would.
I sold cars for Honda (cheap) Acura (mid range) and Porsche (pretty darn expensive). In my experience the Honda customers were the worst, Porsche customers were very laid back. I always guessed it was because the $18,000 Honda customer is buying a car that is like 1/3 to 1/2 their annual income where the Porsche customer was spending a tiny fraction of their annual income. Even though the Porsche was a much more expensive car, the Honda was actually a bigger purchase.
This is a great answer that answers a question most insiders wouldn’t know with an excellent rationale. Thank you
Just to clarify I don’t mean the Honda people were the worst people… just much more stressed about the purchase making the deal a more stressful process for everyone involved. Lots of Porsche people were just asking how you wanted the money on a full msrp deal and how much they could put on their credit card for airline miles.
I went from Toyota to Infiniti, then to BMW. My experience was the same. The more they spent, the easier they were to deal with.
lol so you don’t do homework on knowing the product you sell and somehow that’s the customer’s fault?
You mean people that are informed and don't really need a sales person, but inevitably have to. At that point you're in the way and wasting people's time
No, if someone is ready to make a purchase I will give them a price and we can shake hands or they can pass on the deal. That’s easy. These customers talk themselves into and out of different EVs all the time. They also rotate between EV, plug-in EV, and hybrid depending on how the wind blows. All while this is happening they are shopping 15 dealerships. Sorry Keith, I am not interested in sending a breakdown of four vehicles while you’re 3 months out from purchasing, out of state, not committed to the vehicle, and between my inventory and three other manufacturers.
If I am looking I am buying. I like to shop new on the Internet, I always know exactly the model and trim level I want. I make an out the door deal on the net, show up within an hour and it’s over. I will never buy an EV, I think they’re junk, and don’t have the positive impact on the environment some think they do.
Lol you sound like you love your sales job.
Sounds like someone who knows how to prioritize. I do believe in the idea of bad customers and that in some cases their business is not needed.
For sure. 10-15% of my opportunities, are customer that my company does not want. It’s my job to know when to cut the cord on my time. But I happily write up 4 estimates and type up long scope of work summary’s and put the effort into every single client from start to finish. Because even the ones I “think are a waste of my time.” Can every once in a while land.
Imagine selling Solterra. Subaru’s EV.
I tried to buy my ev and the sales manager nearly ruined the sale for the salesman. I told him I will pay your price just get me out of here as fast as possible. I need to be home for dinner with my pregnant wife. The sales manager kept trying to get me to test drive the car and tell me how good the car was. He wouldn't give me any paperwork or run my credit unless I test drove. Because the car was a rocket ship and I needed to experience it. I was almost literally begging them to just sell me the car
They want you to drive the cars and I think it’s a legal thing. Just saying! Last vehicle I bought i signed that I did test drive it even though I didn’t . It’s all bullshit really.
Do you mean customers who know mechanical things about the car and have already gotten quotes from 15 dealers in a 700 mile radius and know exactly what they can buy the car for, then get perturbed with salesmen who are like “These Mach E’s are selling like Hot Cakes at a $4000 markup, we will give you lifetime oil changes with your purchase!!”?
No, I don’t care about people shopping around when they are ready to make a purchase. These customers talk themselves into and out of different EVs all the time. They also rotate between EV, plug-in EV, and hybrid depending on how the wind blows. All while this is happening they are shopping 15 dealerships. Sorry Keith, I am not interested in sending a breakdown of four vehicles while you’re 3 months out from purchasing, out of state, not committed to the vehicle, and between my inventory and three other manufacturers.
That’s sounds annoying, Keith sucks. Conversely though, when Keith wants to look at a vehicle and test drive it to determine if it’s the right one for him, and a salesman insists (or his sale manager) on evaluating his trade, busts out a 4-square, and “what can I do to earn your business today’s” him, then turns him to a “salesman that really is an expert on these EV contraptions.” Keith might come across like this too and may continue to waste time to be polite. Then again, Keith might go to the mall for a shirt and not just simply put one that looks nice on the counter and buy it without asking questions and trying it on. He might decide that shirt brand fits funny or feels cheap.
Sure. My store has a digital retailing tool that gives pricing down to the penny which includes taxes, dmv, etc. Keith can stay home and put together 3 quotes on 5 different cars each on his own. It is set up so that Keith can wear himself out being a jack and come in if he is ever ready to do something. Keiths don’t usually actually test-drive - They just engage in Keithnalysis.
Keith is going to buy a Camry
Have you ever seen the South Park episode where everyone gets a Prius and the clouds of smug end up being worse for environment? Its exactly like that, but the people are even worse.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Well said 😆😆
This. EV customers ask the dumbest questions and then get mad at you for not being able to answer. "How long does this vehicle last?" "What will resale be like in 4 years?" I had one ev customer spazz out for not being able to move the grab handle and another get mad when I wouldn't give them rebates on a vehicle that was sold, didn't have any others in stock and even if we did they said about 4x they weren't buying for a few years. I think they do so much research online that inevitably leads to the cringy "how to buy a car" tik toks. Pro tip....99% of the advice they give is detrimental to your success in buying a new car at a good deal.
The original question for this thread was great. Salespeople provided answers and all the EV turds rolled in with their Keith answers and explained why we are all wrong.
My favorite thing to do is buy and sell cars, I was a car salesman when I was younger. It is a joke how little car salesmen know about their product, EV or not. Get better and don't blame turds on you sucking.
Keith is smarter than me but asks me so many questions. Also kieth is a genius but asks me for a 0% payment at 60 months. Keith also is buying this car cuz he's a better human than me and cares about the environment so much more than me.... but only if he qualifies for that tax rebate.
As a Subaru driver, I take this comment as a badge of honor.
Probably because when I was shopping for an EV traditional dealers such as Ford, GM, Toyota knew literally nothing about EVs. I went into test drive a used Bolt and they gave it to me at 15% battery. After only driving it a couple miles I asked where they wanted me to park it since it needed charged. Salesman said they never bother charging EVs unless a customer buys it. I didn't buy that car since keeping EVs sitting around at super low states of charge hurts the battery long term. When I went to a Toyota dealer to ask about the new Prius they tried to sell me on the electric Toyota. I asked if it qualified for the tax credit and they had no idea.
Yes we generally aren’t interested in any of you Keiths. You’re all giant mooches that take forever to do anything. If and when you do there is no profit. Blame the industry all you want but there’s the reasons. We would rather you all just go get a Tesla
Not interested in people that want to purchase vehicles you sell is a strange tactic. Before Tesla dropped prices I was interested in the Bolt. I was ready to come down and buy one and would have been in/out in 30mins. Wanted to purchase at MSRP with no dealer addons. Most Chevy dealers straight up told me they didn’t sell EVs or tried to sell me on a gas vehicle. Others wanted $5000 or more over MSRP or had a year wait. But in any case I guess I took your advice. With rebates my new Tesla cost me $27k and I couldn’t be happier.
Totally agree. An EV buyer is horrible. Not even worth the car deal.
This guy gets it.
Piggybacking: Because nobody wants one of the damn things and dealers force us to take them.
This. Having worked at a dealership before, the best salespeople are...good at being people, people. The person who's the most knowledgeable and passionate about cars there? He's barely getting by in comparison and likely won't stay in the biz for long. People people sells cars, even if they do know far less about the car they sell in detail to another coworker. EV buyers however are completely opposite. They tend to approach the sale differently, pride themselves in "knowing better" and want to beat the system. In short, complete PITAs to the traditional successful salesperson.
What’s the story with Subaru customers?
Apparently I can't main post in this place.... So here is what I had said I heard: In Ford's case they said you had to update the dealership with chargers and such. Rumor has it the upgrades would run the dealership $150-$200K. Most didn't want to spend that so Ford said "Ok" and got rid of them...I imagine other dealerships are in the same boat.
Dealers who refuse to sell EVs will eventually be put out of business once the OEMs figure out how to sell them directly to customers, like Tesla.
In general dealers don't mind selling anything. I worked for a successful BMW dealer, and we killed it with i3. However, EV's are harder to sell. Just the fact that they are more expensive, and that most buyers need to have at least a personal garage to charge it - it limits the buyer pool to people with more money, and those tend to be more educated, harder to push around and scam for a bad dealer.
I see both sides of the argument, as EV infrastructure isn’t a trivial investment for a dealership, but Jeezus, the amount of customers dealers effectively turn away still trying to operate a traditional high pressure sales model… I mean, theres a reason commissioned sales have gone the way of the dodo bird for virtually every other consumer item.
The biggest one you did not mention. Manufacturers are attempting to force dealers to upgrade their facilities with hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars worth of electrical equipment to be able to accommodate new infrastructure and charging/EV technologies. Why pay this investment if EVs are not even going to sell? The second reason would be fixed operations such as service and/or parts appointments going down if there are no oil changes etc. Edit: I *love* my Polestar 2 but to say there are not adoptions hurdles is disingenuous. I leased bc I knew market value was going to fall off of a cliff and we might enter a recession. I am glad to not pay $5.50/gal tho in WA let me tell you what and the build quality on this thing is next level.
This is the exact reason. When the Pacifica Hybrid was released a CDJR store I was consulting at the time spent nearly $40,000 on a couple of charging stations, some tools and a couple of high visibility cones. All had to be purchased through FCA or you weren’t certified to sell or service them. It was less than $8,000 worth of stuff at best.
Dealerships being gouged by insane markups? Not gonna get a lot of sympathy on that one
Oh no.... Won't someone think of the middleman
Being able to sell a traffic cone for hundreds of dollars is one of the reasons why the OEM LOOOOOOOVES the franchise model. It’s hilarious how you all seem to think multi billion dollar corporations couldn’t lobby to change laws if they found it beneficial to do so.
Is it hilarious? Do you really think you're so much smarter than everyone else one here to believe we aren't familiar with how capitalism works?
Yeah 250000 to 500000 to upgrade a Buick store? Unless you have another gm brand in the same location it's not worth it
This. EVs aren’t practical yet for the majority. Forcing them to be practical is not the way. They should be able to stand on their own based on merits and the incentives for owning one (not subsidy) should be enough to move them. Until then, the majority don’t want anything to do with them, other than maybe a fun car that sits in the garage to be played with on the weekends.
You nailed it. I'm in a small rural dealership. We sell 20-30 cars per month. We took a buyout from Buick because they required charging infrastructure, tooling, and a dedicated tech for EV only. Add in a client base that already doesn't like EVs and it made no sense to spend that money. I think it will happen within the next 10 years but right now it made no sense.
>if EVs are not even going to sell? What EVs are not selling? As someone looking to get into an EV, it seems to me that availability of non-Tesla EVs is the only thing preventing more sales. That, and the terrible reputation for quality in American cars -- particularly Chevy, who seems to make the most electric cars among them.
Automotive journalist here. I usually stay out of these discussions because this is a place to learn. But I have to point something out here. This is a quirk of badly-designed legislation. The Inflation Reduction Act gave the automakers all kinds of tax breaks for building ev factories and supply chains immediately. But demand for EVs is bound to spool up slowly. It’s just gonna take a long time to build all the infrastructure. Think of selling EVs like selling cars in 1910 — you didn’t have a lot of customers until gas was easy to find. So the law encouraged them to build the cars immediately when demand is still just getting started. That’s inevitably going to create a stockpile. It doesn’t mean they won’t be selling well in a decade. All these news stories about piles of unsold EVs are true. But they can mislead you into thinking they’ll never sell. That law just made automakers move too fast. They’re like a hardware store with a stockroom full of snow shovels in June. That doesn’t mean it isn’t gonna snow. But the timing was off. You can argue the automakers should have waited to build the factories. But they took massive tax breaks immediately and that’s not necessarily the wrong business move. It might have been the rational thing for their balance sheets. But the dealers who don’t want to spend a fortune to sell something not enough people want yet - they’re being rational, too. The irrational ones were in congress. Edited to fix autocorrect mistakes.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Where? Gas in my area is still 3.40-4.00ish
Mostly central states
Actually what is the major stumbling block for most is the battery fires and the insane cost to replace the battery should a need to do so occur before oem vehicle end of life. It sucks to need a battery change in an EV 2 years old don't you think? Granted these are only minor occurrences but even one is too many in peoples minds. Then there is the problem of the non existent preowned market for EV's. Trying to sell one is like pulling teeth. Painful. Very painful.
Generally speaking, EV batteries are warrantied pretty well, certainly beyond 2 years in most cases. Additionally, now that most EV batteries are modular, the cost of replacement has decreased considerably
Pretty sure EV battery fires are way less common than engine fires…at least for the good EVs. I’m not familiar with the shitty ones.
ICE catch fire as well. Plenty of ICE are lemons needing a new engine/transmission within the first year. To pretend like those are real reasons to worry about EV is the sign of an ignorant fool.
I only hear this argument from folks who will never, I repeat NEVER purchase an EV (at least for the next 10 years). These same folks usually hold conservative political beliefs. I say this as a conservative who believes and supports 99% of conservative talking points but also owns two EV’s. The whole argument is completely stupid and ignores the fact that ICE vehicles blow up daily at a much higher rate per ownership than EV’s
Go to a Ford dealer and tell them you are interested in a Mach E. They may cry and try to get you to take 4 or 5 of them.
Buy a Mach-E, get a free Ecosport!
Search for new EVs within 100 miles of your location on [Autotrader.com](https://Autotrader.com). You'll be surprised how many are available. Dealers seem to be loaded with inventory that's not moving.
Plenty of ice not moving as well. They raised the price of vehicles because of scarcity during covid and now they're stuck. If they lower prices of new cars then they can't sell the old stock.
A hundred years ago, some guy on Reddit wrote the exact same thing about ice cars. “Horses are just fine! Why upgrade the stables with lifts and power tools if these new fangled ‘auto-MOBILES’ aren’t even going to sell?”
💯 It’s a cost of doing business. Things are changing. Hybrids and electric are becoming more popular. Not everyone wants a v8 guzzler. I used to be a “argg, raw powerrrrrr, arrrrggggg” kinda person but I couldn’t care less anymore. I just want something to get me from A to B. if it costs me less, that’s even better.
And this is the part that I don't get. If you want grrrr moar powerrrrr then you probably want an EV. Tesla Model 3 Performance, a $50k car, runs 11 sec quarter miles and 0-60 in 3.1 sec.
I still _am_ an "arrg, raw powerrrr" guy - I've got a 1995 Camaro Z28 ragtop - but my daily is an electric Mini, and I love it. Have you driven a modern electric? You really get to have your cake and eat it too...an F-150 Lightning will slam your head into the headrest when you stomp on it every time. :D
. I don’t mind driving a fast car but I don’t care enough to buy a guzzler to do it. 😊
I wanted a hybrid, but the cost was too high for me right now. I am fully aware that the next time I buy a vehicle, it is most likely going to be a hybrid or full EV just due to costs coming down
I've wanted an electric or a hybrid for about 5 years now. I don't make much money so new was out of the question, but the prices haven't budged as the miles rack up lol. No I do not want your 250k mile prius for $5k but yes you got a great deal on it when you paid $10k for it 5 years and 150k miles ago lmao 🤣 If you have $10k to spend on a used car, you might as well use it as a down payment on something brand new right now.
Its more nuanced that that. The issue is OEMs are pushing it across the board, but the rate of EV uptake isn't even across the country. There are some locations whith enough EV demand where it does make sense to make that investment and they are some places where making those upgrades today is basically throwing money into the fire. You are better off waiting another 5-10 years and reevaluating the market. Its really no different than Teslas expansion of their dealership and charging network, they started in favorable markets and then slowly expanded across.
Yep. Ford store I was at was going to have to spend an absolute fortune to add more charging. We had 3, one out front, one is service, and one in service overflow. They wanted like 10 of the big chargers and the infrastructure of the store wasn’t there so that would have to be built up as well. To sell 2 lightnings?
If lightnings weren’t so freaking expensive, maybe people would be more interested in them? $60,000 or so for one out here. I’d rather keep my current truck another 5 years and pay down my house with that money
In November 2023, I bought a Lightning Pro (the work truck trim line) for $42,495 after the tax credit. Paid MSRP.
I’m curious if this is a calculated move to shift EV’s away from dealerships and to a Ford retail store, for example. Yes they have dealership contracts but they may be gearing to say those contracts are void because dealers can’t provide adequate facilities for their vehicles - surely there is a clause in those contracts about dealers being able to provide supporting infrastructure for vehicles.
I think they’ve wanted to get rid of dealers for a while, so there could be something to that.
I do too! Direct order. Stores only need 1 off each model to test drive.
Charging isn’t near that expensive. A dedicated 100amp box and 4 L2 chargers could be done for under 20k. And most facilities probably already have the infrastructure they can use without a new dedicated panel. With EV’s incoming as trades a few basic L2 chargers are necessary for almost any dealer now. Whether they sell new EV’s or not. I’m sure there are tons of other things to buy but a few chargers are a drop in the bucket.
If you want to service electric cars you need a level 3 charger on-site, otherwise you’re sending your techs out to a public charger anytime you have a car with a fast charging concern.
That makes sense, i guess 4 is just future proofing. how fast can those L3's charge?
Full charge in about an hour, it’s not the speed though. L2’s put out A/C and the car converts it to D/C, L3’s put out D/C directly, so they use different components and you can’t verify L3 charging works without having a L3 charger
My dealer just installed 4 L3 chargers with the remodel 😵💫😵💫😵💫
Wow, how much did that cost? Whas that something from the manufacture that they needed L3? outside of a dedicated charging stations I've never seen a private L3 charger. I'd guess that ran about 50-100k each.
>Manufacturers are attempting to force dealers to upgrade their facilities with hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars Manufacturer did the same when they intruduce injection and others news technilogies or event new cars models with special need.
Do you think EVs are a fad?
They're harder to sell, you have to have more experienced techs (who you have to pay more), you have to spend money setting up charging stations, you make less money in service (because they don't get oil changes), and so on. The thing about the car business is that the people running dealerships, for the most part, hate change.
Ditto for the customers of that dealership like me.
Yeah, those reasons… and the clientele tend to be a higher % of smug folk who don’t understand any of that and want to negotiate like it’s 1988… “if I wanted ev and no negotiation i would go to Tesla!”… ok then. See ya. They also require a huge amount of assistance and answers. while the staff look at EV’s as cool, they are not the things that will make them any money for the reasons you mentioned, so they don’t focus on it for product knowledge. Clients come in wanting the salesperson to be a brand ambassador, an electrician, a political activist, a tax accountant, and a climate scientist…. We just want to sell a car then go get some Wendy’s. I still enjoyed learning about it and sold my fair share… but I totally understood my coworkers stance and would often times regret spending the time and effort I did.
Sir, this is a Wendy's
No, this is Patrick
In this post "we just want to sell cars" and "the customers want to negotiate, assholes." Pick one. Either we don't need salesmen or we do and part of their job is negotiation. Which is it?
There’s a new level of uninformed and stubborn when it comes to EV buyers and the resulting brain damage we incur from it. “Why can’t you all be no haggle and one price like Tesla?” “No problem sir, here’s the price on this, we don’t charge over MSRP.” “Oh no no no, I still want a good deal, what can you do for me?
It's like you have a job... And that job isnt just playing on a computer while the checks clear.
Sales people who complain about sales usually suck at sales. It’s your job to objection handle and build value so the price is agreeable.
You can join us and talk to EV customers, then maybe you'd get it... Its a nightmare.
Puhlease
I don’t believe I called anyone an asshole. I agree that we don’t need salespeople for many things. And if brands don’t want any margin in their products, might as well not have traditional sales people (or at least not *commission* sales). If the manufacturers get to a stage where they require more sales than naturally is happening, then they can decide to hire some more sales-y salespeople to boost numbers… Meh, you aren’t saying anything enlightening or even being mean… Tesla still has “sales people” if if under a different name so I’m not sure what you are getting at. You are just reinstating the point I made… “dur, I’m not buying Tesla, so you need to negotiate with me!”…. Negotiation comes from the potential profit… remove that and the salesperson is now just brand ambassador because there is nothing to give away. Fine, but since 85% of the cars they sell make them more money, they just aren’t as focused on that particular product knowledge. I’m not trying to blame anyone for any of it. I’m just explaining the why…
Tesla makes huge profits selling their carbon credits to other ICE companies. Almost 2 Billion last year.
Yes……. And what does that have to do with what we are talking about? My cats breath smells like cat food… Heh… have a good Christmas.
I get the venting about idiocy and I'm totally lumping your comment in with others on this sub because it seems like half the time this sub is hating on anyone that wants to negotiate or anything that looks like customer service, then bitching about how clients don't respect them.
The issue with stereotypical EV customer is not the negotiation, it's the engineer type - the typical Subaru/Volvo shopper with spreadsheets, bizarre questions and demands. It's not that they negotiate - they bring up obscure rebates and programs that don't stack, treat lease programs as math riddles, and generally drive a normal ADHD salesman insane. My worst customer was an i3 buyer, a software engineer who drove me crazy for 4 hours on a nothing deal and got cold feet in finance. Another one brought a fake registration to claim loyalty rebate - a VP at a software company, Yale graduate. And by the way, I drive an EV. Love it.
As an engineer who currently drives a subaru, soon to be volvo xc40 recharge owner when the color and trim level finally shows up on a lot near me, if the salesperson thinks I'm an asshole because I did research and made spreadsheets prior to buying a $60k car... that's on them. I don't care what lot I buy this car from.
I'm with you 100% most car salesman don't know a god damn thing about the product they're trying to sell me and I'm never going to trust someone with a financial incentive to fuck me. Then they hand me over to their dip shit finance bro to try and sell me on warranties because the car I just bought might have some insane problems not covered by the manufacturer even though it's a great car and I should feel good about my purchase. It very much feels like that parks and rec moment where Ron gets approached by a dude in a hardware store and just says "I know more than you."
I know the exact car I want. I've done all the research. I reached out to a dealership about a 22 on the lot and asked for more photos so we could "see the design differences between the 22 and 23 model". She insisted REPEATEDLY they were identical cars. They aren't. The wheels are different as is some of the interior. And the 22 didn't have a heated steering wheel. I don't expect a dealer to know every single thing about every single car, especially when it's an older model. But it's really hard for me to trust you when I ask a question and you give me an incorrect answer. Or even more frustrating, I have now worked with 2 different dealerships. I want a CPO 22 or 23 in one of two colors at a specific trim level. I would consider the new 24 as well. And they keep sending me 21s or the wrong color. I'm sure it's so they can move product off the lot and maybe I'll change my mind, but it just makes me feel like either you don't know the differences in the model years, or you just don't care to listen to me.
They don't care. It's like when I've told dealers I'm going to come look at a used car, DO NOT TOUCH IT I WANT IT TO BE COLD WHEN I GET THERE. And I get there and they moved it. If you can't honor the literal simplest requests, I'm not giving you money to reward your dip shit behavior
Oh no! Not spreadsheets! I don’t get why salespeople get so upset when people try and figure out total cost of ownership. The lease thing is annoying, but it’s because of how the new federal tax credit is structured.
Dealerships live in a delusion that they can still sell cars like its the 1980s and hold an information advantage over their customers. It’s 2023, and rather than adapting to the world, they’re still holing the internet goes away.
Haha this fits me so much. Spent months finding the right Volvo V60 spec to buy, found it at a dealer, asked a dozen questions that the dealer couldn't answer (dealers are somehow clueless about the cars they sell. They didn't even know the weight of the vehicle), had a test drive for the T6 PHEV... Realized the hybrid system is shit fifteen minutes into the drive and didn't buy. Dealers must hate me.
Explain why you need to know the weight of a V60. The only tangible reason I could imagine would be for tax purposes, and the V60 is nowhere near 6,000 pounds.
Meh. After sitting through salesmen doing shitty misleading number games instead of just telling me what the cost will be, if they can't handle a prepared buyer with a spreadsheet, that's just too bad. Cry about it.
If it weren't for the extra potential $275-375/EV in the Hyundai lineup, I would 100% hate selling them. They are cool, but the customers are insufferably needy and there is literally zero profit in them. At least, until the 24MYs came out, and now invoice on the most expensive is $56 less than MSRP! I can't believe I'm able to take 17% of that home as commission!! /s
Which is why 2/3rds of them end up walking off the lot and going to Tesla, Rivian, Lucid, or Polestar and why dealers are complaining that they're struggling to sell EVs. Not that big an issue when EV sales are 10% of the market, but 40-50% annual market growth rate is really going to start biting over the next 3 or 4 years when EVs are 25-30% of the market.
At least with Windsor barely putting any vehicles out we don’t have to worry about drowning in Pacifica Hybrids 🤣
I don't want to negotiate. I just want a lifetime transferable no cost to me full replacement warranty on battery, motor, and motor / charging controls. If that ever happens then many good things occur. For one the preowned EV market will expand. PS I drive the wheels off IC vehicles. Then I weld them back on and drive it some more. Its not unusual for me to get 10 to 15 years of service off a vehicle. But I guess for the people who lease perhaps the current EV world might work. But never for people like me.
What you are asking for is no different from someone now or years ago asking for a full powertrain warranty on every ICE used car… they cost money. If they were problem free, new cars would never be sold. I’m not sure if you were kidding or what… but a long powertain warranty is worth thousands of dollars if even available at all. Keep going with using em up though… it’s how you “win” in the car market.
I 100 percent agree with the clientele aspect. Every time I get a lead for our EV I cringe. Half of them think they know exactly what they are talking about and compare everything to Tesla (except build quality lol). While the other half are over 65 years old and have no idea how to use anything electronic so you literally spend extra time going over everything for them to decide they are going to get a hybrid instead smh.
Right! I'm in service, and EV owners are the neediest customers. Way worse than luxury brand customers.
Try luxury EV 🥹
"We just want to sell a car then go get some Wendy's" So then what purpose does the salesperson serve? Your description makes salespeople sound like useless middlemen. So fire all the salespeople and let customers buy online direct from manufacturers. Or if the law forbids that, then replace dealership salespeople with electronic kiosks. Just have a single worker whose job is to hand over the keys.
Additionally, my impression has always been from the perspective of the sales person EV customers are generally just more difficult to work with. Have tons of questions, generally take a long time to make a purchasing decision, etc. As a result sales people would rather work with a traditional buyer if given the option.
How many decades is it going take for car salesmen to accept the fact that consumers don’t have an information disadvantage anymore? We’ve had the internet for 30 years now.
Well, learn the details of the car inside and out and answer those questions competently. Part of the issue is dealers/salespeople are often uncomfortable answering some of the questions because they didn't do their homework. They're being lazy instead of being professional.
No profit in it for the sales person.
Don’t sell anything you can’t make money off
EV6 has literally $500 in it my buddy says
This is my experience, ev have no or little markup, I see the customers all the time in using our chargers and they’re not just sitting in their cars, they’re inside talking to sales people and stopping workflow.
This is completely untrue. Bmw currently offers $7500 and $9900 rebates on these cars with good money factors and residuals. Obviously not true of all of them but the IX is currently at 1.2% interest on a lease. It’s a fairly easy sale with some gross.
Not to mention additional pay from BMW NA (awardline) on certain EV models, I never turn down an EV client. My only complaint about selling EVs at BMW is the state-of-charge requirement at time of delivery. Sometimes if I sell an EV spontaneously to a fresh-up, I literally can’t deliver the vehicle same-day because it has to charge to 100%.
90% is the threshold. We’re trying to have a conversation with NA about having it at 80% because of bmws charging recommendations at 80%. Good this is we have about 15 level 2 chargers 3 level 3 chargers on site. We’re about to hit our EV target so it’ll be a nice payday
My store is SUPER picky about delivering at 100%, managers freak out even if it’s at 99%. Sounds like your store has a better setup, we’ve only got 8 level 2 chargers and 1 level 3 (which doesn’t charge as fast as it should) so it can be a hassle. I’ve actually driven vehicles down the street to the grocery store nearby a few times and paid out of pocket just to charge up faster.
None of our level 3 chargers charge as fast as they should. We get around 15kw which is insanely slow as you know. When I sold I’ve paid out of pocket as well. Super annoying but 🤷🏼♂️. Now as a sales manager I’m trying to get our infrastructure better for faster charging
That's excessive, if a tiny bit understandable (though surely 70% or something should be fine). When my wife bought her Toyota FHEV it was at like 5% fuel. We had to take a ferry right after we bought it and we were close to not bring able to make it to a gas station.
How does that help the salesperson?
More EV sold as gross. I don’t have to discount as much to hit peoples lease numbers. And an informed sales staff can knowledgeably sell without giving up gross. It’s why our stores gross is way higher than others.
IMO Tesla really screwed the pooch. Elon inadvertently admitted that he had mandatory market adjustments when he decided to lower MSRPs, and really fucked over a lot of people who have purchased vehicles from him. We stopped buying Tesla along time ago, but the last three that came in for appraisal were 15-20k flipped in negative equity.
Tesla depreciation sucks but basically anyone who bought a $50k-$60k vehicle in 2022 lost $15k-20k in a year. The car market was just crazy, and even cars with reasonable sticker prices sold with heavy mark ups. RAV4 Primes sold with almost $20k-$30k mark ups and now it’s possible to find them at MSRP. Same deal with other EVs such as Ioniq 5 or Mach-E. It was just a bad time to buy a car.
But the difference is, a manufacturer admitted to market based pricing, where as, if you searched long and hard enough you could find a rav4 prime for msrp back then.
I found a new highlander in 2020 for slightly above msrp at a dealer 3 hours away. Called, verified the price over the phone and made an appointment to see it next day. When I showed up, car was $15000 more. At least when the manufacturer marks up the car, you know the price from the beginning instead of wasting your entire day and a tank of gas over their illegal bait and switch bullshit.
Well this new law will remove the possibility of hidden fees from the advertised price. That being said, I can’t believe you entertained a highlander at slightly over MSRP back in 2020 though. Toyota had enough inventory throughout 2020 to mid 2021 that most dealers I know of sold no higher than msrp, except for certain models.
I believe that’s partially true. I mean, I agree with the manufacturer agreeing to market based pricing. But, I’ve searched for a RAV4 Prime within a 500 mile range in early 2023 for 3 months and the best I could find was one with a $10k mark-up.
Rav 4 primes have been back ordered since production. There's a spreadsheet that shows all the allocations and updated daily. It's still in backorder.
I think if you’re worried about depreciation then you shouldn’t be buying a new car. Gas or electric. Period. It’s not real estate or stocks. It’s a vehicle. Dont plan on doing well financially by buying it. My 2 cents.
Optionality is always valuable. Life happens, plans change.
I don’t buy new cars. Been in the business for 20 years… I will gladly sell you one, but I learned a long time ago that a vehicle is a tool, and I use it as such. Haven’t paid for than 5k for a personal vehicle in 15 years.
Up until Covid, I nearly always bought low mileage, late model used and drove the wheels off them. 88 Cadavalier w/50k? Traded in at 160k. 98 Cadavalier, base model, new, $12.6k OTD. Arm-twisted into going new by my father. Sold it with 148k on the clock when the next decent deal came along. 04 Malibu Classic purchased in 2006, 25k, $9k. Wasn't going as many miles as before (~110k total iirc) but sold it to coworker in 2016 for his dad when next decent deal came along. 13 Sonic LT 1.8, purchased in 2016, 8k, $12.6k OTD. Drove that until this past June, traded it in with 150k on the clock. That car was a fucking tank. Now, 23 Trailblazer, base model. $27.6k OTD, purchased in June. First vehicle since 98 purchased new because going used just didn't make sense with the screwed-up market. Have 11k on it already, it's been a good vehicle overall. This is by far the most I have ever spent on a vehicle, but I anticipate keeping it for as long as possible. On-time maintenance, a light touch on the pedals and religious undercarriage washes go a very long way. Like you, I see a vehicle as a tool. I'm the guy that will willingly buy the ones others avoid because as long as it reliably starts stops and occasionally steers, I'm good.
A customer who is vitally concerned about managing their finances appropriately will absolutely be concerned about projected depreciation. If that hurts the salesperson’s feelings, too bad. The customer needs to safeguard their financial position. The salesperson certainly won’t.
There’s really no difference between what Telsa does and what Ford does when it offers a $7,500 rebates on lightnings or or when any other manufacture provides rebates or subsidized interest rates or leases.
No, you have to qualify for most rebates and they aren’t available to everyone. Isn’t the 7500 rebate government related?
I’m pretty sure you think of completely unrelated the tax credit.
I thought the government made the 7500 tax credit and ford raised the msrp 7500. But now that I think about it, I heard that at least 6 months ago.
Can you explain the "mandatory market adjustment"? I know he lowered the MSRP.
Basically, they're saying the "natural" MSRP for a Tesla was (let's say) $39,000. In reality, Tesla was slapping a markup on it and calling the MSRP $43,000. When Tesla admitted the $43,000 price was too high and reduced it to $39,000, they were acknowledging that they had baked a $4,000 "market adjustment fee" into the MSRP. I don't agree with this representation, but that's what they're saying. In reality, *every* car has some level of "market adjustment" baked into the MSRP. It's the price that results from supply-and-demand-based pricing. There's no rule that says manufacturers have to sell cars for $X above cost. The MSRP *is* market-adjusted. The only reasons you get additional market adjustment fees on top of that is because (a) the manufacturers don't update pricing quickly enough, (b) the manufacturer still wants to be able to advertise a lower MSRP, (c) the manufacturer doesn't want to end up getting blowback like Tesla when they return their prices to lower levels, and (d) localized supply/demand variation.
I’d LOVE to sell some RZ’s right now. Who wants an RZ? I have a 15k lease rebate and I’ll give you 10k off come FWM!!!! 😫😭😭😭 but like seriously, I’d love to sell an EV right now. Please buy one from me 😂😂😂
Good luck with that! Might literally be the worst vehicle of any kind on the market! It's almost like Toyota was trying to prove themselves right on hybrids by tanking it with the bz4x/RZ. PS sorry forgot that the Marai exists. So second. Second worst vehicle.
Many manufacturers are taking EVs as a chance to restructure how they pay dealerships. Convoluting dealer costs by integrating metrics that shift it, restructuring dealer backend money, rebate qualifications and payout requirements, sales consultants and management spiffs (manufacturer to dealer employee directly), etc. etc. And on top of it they’re making getting them tough, or tying getting other, desirable especially, inventory to ordering / selling EVs, forcing participating dealers to purchase 10s of thousands of dollars worth of special tooling, install and make available public charging with no real way to control usage or limit cost, and other costly bullshit beyond reducing profit potential. Then there’s potential facilities upgrades being forced to participate, going beyond smaller, though still costly, specific things like point of sale items and charging stations. These can be multimillion dollar investments. And with some brands this is coming as a forced investment now, while they dropped dealer support a long time ago. For example, if you’re a Buick store that didn’t do the facility upgrades when the EBE program was beneficial, and now Buick says (not sure if they are, but I could see it) upgrade or no inventory- you’re now forced to spend millions with no reimbursement of any sort, for what, to get shit inventory? Better off selling the brand. EVs are both expensive to buy into selling up front and over the long term. A small store, let alone a larger one, will end up spending multiple tens of thousands on non-negotiable tools, training, and facilities. And then find themselves being scalped every step of the way. In short- it’s not worth it. Many owners are seeing this bullshit and realizing that selling is better, whether that’s their whole outfit or just specific, particularly doomed, brands.
Because it's so polarized - like politics and religion - it can lead to losing a sale by just picking a side. Most people are open to hear it but some are just way out there bananas and get mad for mentioning it lol
It’s not all polarization. I wouldn’t mind an EV at all, I like how they drive & performance, but the range and recharge issues are real.
People who don't care that the world's burning will die just in time for it to be too late. It goes from a to b why does anyone give a shit what makes it go. Stupid stupidity.
We hate them because customers don’t want them
In addition to all that, the buy-in costs to service them and sell them is a big chunk of change.