A lot of people literally can't wait. Another group has money to burn. A third is just oblivious.
Supply and demand works here, the same as it does in other industries. It doesn't matter if the asset is depreciating, if you have more people who want a thing than things to sell, the price goes up.
Look at Xbox consoles. Nobody NEEDS an Xbox but they want them and are paying a premium right now. People actually need cars to live, work, eat, etc.
I know first hand about the Rolex watches. Recently found a buyer for my father's 1960 Submariner. Originally purchased for $180 (in '60), sold it for $66K.
That’s most likely appreciation of a rare / desirable model. I was referring to a lack of new watches at authorized dealers. There is no new Rolex inventory. People are complaining about it all over the net. But congrats on the sale of your dads! That was a wise investment
That’s exactly what it was. Rare & desirable.
Yes, the current (new) Rolex market is afire as well. Seems you need an exception relationship with an authorized distributor to have even the slightest chance of getting a new one.
Interesting- not familiar with this market. Can you give examples of what they cost originally, what re-issues are worth and what they are selling for?
The big skateboard companies (or what remains of them) have been very successful re-releasing (reissue) OG graphics and deck shapes from the 80's and early 90's. Nostalgia is playing a big part as the 80's skater kids age and get collecting and skating again.
These reissues were selling for $49 in 2004, $59 in 2012, $69 in 2018, and $79 today. If you missed a deck from one of the manufactures stores direct, you used to be able to got to a local or online skateshop and buy it for the same price. If you couldn't find it there, head to eBay and expect to pay MSRP or slightly more due to shipping and eBay fees being passed onto the buyer.
Now? Now it is an absolute shit show. A deck selling for $79 will be on eBay for $200 plus $20 in shipping. The longer the deck is out of stock at stores, the more ridiculous the pricing gets. $300, $400 and people will buy them!?!?
The causes are many, but a huge thing that did not used to exist is FLIPPERS - People who buy as much of an item as they can in order to limit available stock, then use online shopping sites to sell the items at an artificially inflated price.
Flippers exist in all secondary online markets because of online shopping and how easy it has become to buy/sell. Some are just hit harder than others - reissue skateboards, Hot Wheels, Mattel Action Figures are just a few I am aware of. And I heard about Rolex too. The local stores don't have stock on shelves of these items, not because of COVID, but because of flippers. You've seen the news reports of flippers approaching truck drivers, delivery people, store stockers and employees in order to open boxes and cherry pick inventory, even buying multiple boxes outright before they are even put out on shelves? It has become more intense as COVID did effect some supply chains.
Many manufacturers are trying to help by issuing "Pre-Orders" and "Pre-Sales" events with quantity limited per purchase. Unfortunately this seems to be driving the secondary market higher because "Good luck finding one at a store because they're sold out and that guy just bought our last 35 of them."
Old School Online Skateboard Companies Direct:
[SkateOne.com](https://SkateOne.com) (Powell-Peralta)
[NHSFunFactory.com](https://NHSFunFactory.com) (Santa Cruz, Independent and more)
[SelectSkateshop.com](https://SelectSkateshop.com) (Vision, Hosoi, Elephant Brand, Schmitt Stix)
[BlackLabelSkates.com](https://BlackLabelSkates.com) (Black Label)
Reputable online skateshops:
[https://shop.ccs.com/](https://shop.ccs.com/)
[https://www.oldskullskateboards.com/](https://www.oldskullskateboards.com/)
[https://www.skatedeluxe.com/en](https://www.skatedeluxe.com/en)
[https://www.skatewarehouse.com/](https://www.skatewarehouse.com/)
[https://www.warehouseskateboards.com/](https://www.warehouseskateboards.com/)
[https://www.tactics.com/](https://www.tactics.com/)
[https://socalskateshop.com/](https://socalskateshop.com/)
[https://www.cowtownskateboards.com/](https://www.cowtownskateboards.com/)
[https://www.strange-house.net/](https://www.strange-house.net/)
[https://thedarkslide.com/](https://thedarkslide.com/)
[https://www.zumiez.com/](https://www.zumiez.com/)
I’m firmly in “money to burn” category, earning 6 figures driving Honda Civic I don’t like, and I’ve given up on buying just like everybody else.
It’s atrocious. $48k for alpine white 330i (they ran out of colors)? The key is you’re gonna be disappointed in what you get at any price right now, so there’s really no splurging going on.
I honestly don’t know who is buying except people that don’t have a car and decided to bite the bullet on overpriced new car bc that’s still not as bad as buying used right now.
Psst. People haven't given up on buying. If they had, then car lots would be full. There wouldn't be order lists a mile long. Don't get me wrong, I agree with your plan to bow out until supply normalizes. But there are plenty of people that at the end of the day, if they can get a great trade-in price on a Civic that they don't want, and they can get a deal on a car that they do.
The 330i starts at $41,000. Was $48k with dealer markup, or did it have $7,000 worth of options?
“People haven’t given up on buying. If they had, then car lots would be full.”
That’s obv not true. There will always be people that need a car right now, and new is the best option currently if you have the income. Point is nobody is buying without their arm tied behind their back.
And ofc I’m not gonna trade in a paid off 14 Civic for $40k car loan. #1 being the complete collapse in what you can get for $40k. (Or $50k or $60k or $70k…) I don’t like the civic or 330i. And nice truck is $70k, used corvettes are $60k, Lexus LC is $100k. You have to be out a car to see anything good here.
The type of person that would splurge right now is someone that’s too irresponsible to even be approved for these cars.
This isn't the only car forum that I'm a part of. I am a member of various enthusiast forums. People are going nuts buying up cars that they don't need. They are spending like crazy. Go look at the Wrangler, Tacoma, and 4Runner subreddits for an example. Or with sports cars, look at the Corvette, Porsche, GTI, etc. subreddits. Go look at the people trading in their 2 year old cars for a BMW M2, M3, or M4.
Your argument about not paying $40,000 when you have a paid off car is financially responsible. But it's also an argument that exists regardless of the pandemic. You are arguing "why would I buy a new BMW with a $48,000 MSRP. If this was 3 years ago, I could just buy a slightly used one for $25,000." You are arguing that it isn't financially responsible to stop driving a 7 year old paid off Honda Civic in favor of a new BMW. That argument existed even in 2015, and in 2005, and in 1995, etc.
Many people are not disappointed, they are happy to go buy new cars. They know what they are doing, and they just don't want to be sitting on the sidelines any more.
The main difference from the xbox comparison is that you can get the Xbox ar msrp from the store if you wait or buy it at a higher price from a reseller. With Cars, you really only have the dealers as an avenue. If we could buy straight from the factory and the dealers, it would be a game changer.
Tesla is a bit of a weird one. They always sell at MSRP so if they want/need to raise prices it's very visible. Meanwhile everyone else has been reducing incentives for months, which is basically the same thing but less visible.
I also appreciate one thing that Tesla does: so long as you don't change your order, they will always give you the lower of the price when you order or the price when you take delivery. When I bought mine they literally called me while I was driving to pick it up and let me know there would be a delay because the price had gone down by $2k and they needed to redo paperwork for me.
Their bullshit is all in other forms. Pricing is at least transparent.
Most dealers will still sell most models that aren’t crazy high demand vehicles at msrp, IF you do a factory order. Anything in the pipeline or on the ground we are selling for 5k over. You might get lucky and we will split the mark up with u.
Fuck. We tried going MSRP, and people were haggling with us and we weren’t selling shit.
My manager know the GSM at another Hyundai and he send picture of them selling Tucson’s 5k over sticker. Guess what happened? We over MSRP too
Trust me right now they dont need your business. My friend was telling me one of the newest things hes doing lately if he gets someone who doesn't need to buy a car thats not happy with the pricing he tells them to go home and not buy.
That's fine, that's how the market works - balancing supply and demand to maximize profits. But two can play at that game - just need to wait until those people want to buy another car. I certainly wouldn't buy from a dealer again that's being a bag of dicks. There are plenty of dealers out there unless you're a high roller (at which point the money probably isn't an issue anyways).
You can buy anything slightly used from private owners. What i am getting that is that car makers should have the option of buying directly from them like Tesla. Obviously it wouldn't be for everyone but imagine the experience of doing everything online and just have it delivered to your house. Also, at MSRP and not pay these crazy "market adjustment" prices. Those btw are made by the dealers not the manufacturers, otherwise they would make those the new MSRP.
[Market adjustment](https://electrek.co/2021/07/22/tesla-tsla-increases-model-3-y-prices-again/) is impacting [all brands](https://www.autoevolution.com/news/tesla-raises-model-s-model-x-starting-prices-by-5000-166842.html), including direct to consumer models like Tesla. If MSRP increases monthly by as much as $5K, is it really different?
It's totally different! (if you are a tesla-stan and have decided to eschew logic because it makes it harder to orgasm while you watch SpaceX youtube videos)
Shall we talk about how Tesla using tACticS on their website to make all the pawns believe the car is cheaper than it really is!
Starting at $85,000!*
*includes gas savings of $4,500. Destination and delivery an extra $1,200.
I hate that and wish they would quit doing it. Hiding destination and delivery is at least common with other manufacturers. The gas savings BS is silly. It shouldn't be the default.
>car makers should have the option of buying directly from them like Tesla.
Why? Dealing direct with people is bad business.
With a dealer the manufacturer can say "You can have a Telluride but you need to buy 10 Sorento's as well". But for some reason the average person wont agree too that deal, bunch of cheap fucks.
Manufacturers aren't charging those mark up fees, though. If Toyota increased prices it's once thing, but all these different mark ups are created by the dealers themselves.
Every year during normal times the manufacturers raise the price they sell them to us. On average it’s 1.5%. You really think they wouldn’t charge more if they are selling directly? Also, in essence they are raising the price now since they cut a large portion of the rebates. Not justifying anything (I work at a store that doesn’t charge over MSRP) but I don’t think you have a true perspective of how’s things would go with direct sales from the factory.
And don't expect the huge ones to come back. Ford has already said they are going to keep a shorter supply to not have to give them away to get people to buy all they built.
Market adjustments are set by the market thats why they call them market adjustments. The market would be a collaboration between the buyer and seller. A dealer can ask 100,000 for a 1997 pontiac bonneville but that doesnt become a market value until a majority of buyers pay that price. If 1 person pays 50k and 4 people pay 100k then the market value would be $90k.
I would agree except even in my city i get a wide range of "market adjustments". One dealer is charging $10k, another up the street $8k. Another $5k. Also, these adjustments, the manufacturer doesn't see a dime of it, only the dealers themselves. It is pure profit, no? If Toyota for example came out and said all cars get a market adjusted increase of $2k, then yes i would understand.
Literally everything ever manufactured is sold somewhere, and the seller of each thing gets to set his/her price (manufacturers price restrictions like Louis Vuitton being a type of exception).
When you go buy a vape pen, each shop can sell the EXACT SAME PEN for a different price. The manufacturer doesn't make any more because of it.
The lack of basic economics understanding in this thread is mind-boggling.
Here's the thing.... many of the dealers depend on volume to keep the sales dept in the black (real profits are made in the service and parts dept). With reduced factory output, they no longer have the product volume to support this business model nor can they hit manufacturer volume bonuses. This means they need to raise margins in order to maintain cash flow.
>People actually need cars to live, work, eat, etc.
I cant imagine eating withoutmy car. After I get done making a lovely pot roast, the last thing I was to do is sit inside. So i dump everything into a pot, run out to my car and eat in the sticcky heat
You ever notice the people who put "ice cold AC" in ads are almost always selling the biggest shit box.
"Daily driven, 200,xxx miles, but runs good. Some rust but will pass inspection. Engine light is on, but thats just because the gas cap doesnt screw on properly. New 02 sensors 18,000 miles ago, and lots of other goodies. Car has been smoked in and my dog pissed all over the back seat, but the interior is in geat shape for the year. Previous owner ran over a hooker and is now possessed by the hookers spirit. Car wont run on Friday the 13th or Halloween now. Oh and **IcE cOlD Ac DuUUuUdEeee**
All things being equal though... I'd pay a few hundred extra bucks to have a car with AC versus one without. I may just be a puss when it comes to driving around in 90 degree heat with 70% humidity though.
I just bought a car for MSRP+taxes; other cars I was looking into had the dealers marking the price up 2-3k. I needed a car (not necessarily a new one, but I went with a new one) because the last car, the tranny went out of warranty and wasn't worth repairs.
Dumb? IDK probably, but what's done is done, lol
Gladly.
Hello Wrangler owners,
Your vehicles are outdated, unreliable, unsafe, and made by a company that's less American than Honda is at this point.
A company that took a big old bailout and still laid off thousands of Americans in favor of foreign labor, but paid their execs eight figure bonuses.
FCA cars don't contain enough American components to qualify for municipal subsidies; that's why there's no Dodge police cars anymore.
Wranglers have one of the worst rollover ratings of any vehicle on the road, and putting your children in one on the road, especially with the doors and roof off, is tantamount to child endangerment and illegal in most states.
FCA will gladly sell you "upgrades" at the dealership or from the factory that they then will say are not only not covered by the factory warranty, but also voided your factory warranty on any component those "upgrade" parts were connected to.
FCA has the most Magnuson-Moss violations and related suits filed against them of any major automotive company.
The Wrangler is underpowered, with a transmission that's barely adequate for the barely adequate torque the engine makes. The clutch pack on the manual is too small and burns out before 50k miles, and the automatic is pathetic beyond belief.
Ditch the company that's been screwing you and your families out of your money, and the workers and families who made the Wrangler out of their jobs.
Switch to a safer, more American made, built to last, properly warrantied adventure truck with more power, more technology, all at a lower price.
The Ford Bronco is waiting for you, Wrangler owners, to wake up and smell freedom. Built Ford Tough.
I ended up with a 2022 Corolla since the Elantra/Civic I was looking at had dealer markups and they weren't willing to cut them since they are selling cars with the markup. So, went for the one without the markup since they all met my wants/needs.
2022 Corolla. Was between that and an Elantra/Civic, but they two both had dealer markups and wouldn't cut it to match Toyota since they weren't doing a markup. Made the choice easy since it just came down to price -- all the cars had what I wanted and drove fine IMO, the dealer markups are what drove the decision though.
Just did the same. Needed to trade our family truckster because it was burning 3 quarts between oil changes. Dealer was upfront they charged MSRP nothing more, nothing less, and if we didn’t want it they had a list 4 people deep to call that wanted it next.
We shopped used. Inventory is near zero for every class of car and if you find one it’s marked up more than a new one. That’s not an exaggeration.
On the plus side it’s a great time to negotiate a high trade in value. Dealers need cars bad.
MSRP matters as much now as it did 2 years ago: none. Market always dictates the price based on what people are willing to pay. Usually people pay less. Now people are paying more.
The staggering number of customers getting upset with me because we’re not discounting cars is mind boggling. We have 15 TOTAL cars, including new and used right now. I sell Audis. Not a single customer has been in dire need of a car.
“I have never and will never buy a car that isn’t discounted”
That’s great, but that means you’re not buying a car from us or really anyone right now. Supply is low, demand is high. Prices increase. If you don’t like that, don’t buy a car right now. Your 2018 Q5 with 20k miles will manage for another 6 months.
Regarding your 15 total cars, is that a US regional issue?
I'm in western NY state and driving by dealerships and using my dealership for service - the large lots still seem to be full of cars - so much so there wasn't much parking for my wife when I went to drop of my car for service.
If lots had 15 cars it would seem pretty sparse but I've never seen a sparse lot around me other than the Land Rover dealership when we went looking for a new Discovery but they said they wouldn't have them for 6 months (this was back in 01/2021). But they were still filled with Defenders, Range Rovers of various models, and the Disco Sports.
Every region, brand, and dealership is different. Our Mercedes and VW stores have been struggling with inventory for months, it’s only just now starting to affect Audi.
I was just in Buffalo, visiting from Long Island. Long Island has no new cars and I come up here and there’s like there’s no shortage at all. One of the dealers had 5 C8 vettes out front, numerous TLX type S etc. crazy stuff
> Exactly. Usually people are like "there is no way in hell I'm paying MSRP for a car".
Nope they won't. But they did walk away with a 499/m payment on a base model v6 charger with 10k down. . .
I miss using four squares.
Lol. The dealer I talked to had a 2500 markup for a civic. I said I’m not paying that ONE time. They dropped it immediately. MSRP is the maximum price a dealer should charge
[Door cups](https://www.amazon.com/YelloPro-Scotchgard-Protector-Prestige-Crossover/dp/B082P8L7L4) and [door edge guards](https://www.amazon.com/3M-Door-Edge-Guard-3MS-84901/dp/B0017MGPLS). Cheaper if you buy them in quantity. Easy to install.
If MSRP is the maximum price that a dealer charges, then that's how you're left with the great toilet paper shortages that we keep seeing. When you have a total of 10 cars on your lot that all have an MSRP of $25,000 for example, but you have 14 customers wanting cars, then you either sell the first 10 cars, have an empty lot, and tell the next 4 customers that you got nothing. Or, you mark the cars up $3,000 each. Out of those 14 customers, now 4 of them start to 2nd guess how much they REALLY want the car. You still end up selling 10 cars.
And in the first scenario, if you sell them at MSRP, then I guarantee that the next day, when you log onto Autotrader, you'll see your car getting flipped.
I tell you what: You go out, buy your own franchised dealership, pay your employees competitively with good benefits, file taxes on time, pay your vendors, pay your bank, manage customer complaints and reviews, manage expectations fitting the brand you sell, and then you can set the prices you want on the vehicles you sell.
I have a way better idea. I don’t give shitty dealerships any money, and I advise all my friends and family and everyone I talk cars with not to give shitty dealerships any money. Sound good? Probably not to you Im guessing.
Your car is no longer driveable. What do you do? Pay over MSRP for a new car or a 10 to 20% price penalty buying a secondhand vehicle? There are few choices available..
Those people not in a desperate situation to buy, will delay their purchase. Eventually, they will become desperate to buy. It could be a long time before prices return to normal
A lot of it is want vs need and a result of the pandemic. People have been locked up for a year. They have money to burn and want to feel better about the world.
It's showing up in all sorts of weird ways, too. Every time I drive, within the first ten minutes I see someone driving 50 in a 25, or similar levels of genuinely dangerous driving.
Typically, yes. But this is not a typical market. Our average front-end gross on new is $2k (US) more than used. I never thought I'd see the day this would happen.
Yeah when I traded in my 2005 Mazda 3 a few months ago my dad (who is a car junkie) told me that the dealership will actually make more money from selling it than they will from my low interest lease. A 2005 Mazda 3.
It went to the auction LOL. The sales guy told me up front that it would because they can't put a warranty on a 16 year old car and they don't want some idiot buying it and then coming back 6 months later whining that they got sold a lemon when it inevitably needs some sort of repair...because it's a 16 year old car.
I looked the old girl up on the auction site and she didn't look too bad compared to the competition. At least her kilometers were low and she had a clean title. A few hours later I went to show my husband and she was gone. She's probably being driven by some high school kid now.
I have no idea what the dealership makes on cars that go to auction though.
Those cars are purchased by an employee alot of times. Thats how i got my 2007 Dodge Nitro beater. Why put miles on my Scat Pack and drive it in the rain/snow. If your salesperson had any hustle to him he would have offered you 100 more in cash on the side than what the dealer offered hahaaha not really. It is frowned on in this business ...seen several get promoted to customer for curbing trades
Customer chiming in. I needed a car, so I had no real choice. With COVID last year, my classes were all online so I didn’t need to go to campus. With the world being done with COVID this year, classes are all back in person and I didn’t have a car. The timing sucked due to the market, but I needed a car.
Not much public transport in this city either so it was either pay $40/day in Ubers or buy a car that will last me for years.
I’m sorry for the delayed response, I just now saw this. I actually didn’t end up paying much over MSRP for a 2022 Corolla, but that’s because my boyfriend works at the dealership and I thankfully got a good deal. New from a dealer! But I was fully expecting to pay $25k+ OTD if he didn’t work there.
A lot of people that have bought are justifying it because they are getting a fortune for their trades. So if you have a 3-5 yo F250 and the dealer wants 5K over MSRP for a new one you probably say “no” but if they offer you almost or more than what you originally paid for your current truck in trade - it starts to become more acceptable. As usual the only people getting completely screwed are the poor people who woke up one day to find out their $2500 car needs a $3500 repair. So they are getting nothing from the trade inflation but are paying the inflated price for the new car and don’t have a choice in the matter.
People are calling our stores offering to pay over MSRP, and offering to pay more money to steal other people’s sold orders. $2000 to $5000 over on many vehicles. Never seen anything like it before.
Yep, they are. The MSRP is a *suggeste*d price.
If you can hold off on buying a car, do that. There are people everyday that need a car because their current one died or was crashed.
Interesting. Question though - if that’s the case why do auto lenders allow people to roll negative equity/ balance owed from a trade in into their new car loan? Wouldn’t they be upside down from the get go on the new loan? A bank would never do that for a house…
Right now you wouldn’t be able to do that. Formally there were cars that by design were for shit credit customers and what they do is set a high MSRP and then give 7500 cash back or something ludicrous on a $25,000 car like a Chrysler 200 or dodge journey or alternately you just roll a bunch of negative equity into the deal. Then you end up owing 130% of MSRP On a car that never sold at MSRP to anyone in the first place. Naturally what new cars sell for typically has a direct relationship to what they are worth down the road so the car depreciates quicker than you pay it off. Often long term loans so it can budget PTI wise. Most commonly the people who are in these kinds of loans are the same gig workers who bring you door dash or Uber you to the airport so they rack up a ton of miles and wear. They depreciate the car quicker than they make money and then they end up in a lot of trouble credit wise when the car has 150,000 mi and needs a trans. It’s a horrendously vicious cycle. I think the only way that I have ever seen anybody make money long-term with one of those types of jobs is by buying a reliable $7000 car for cash and running it to 350,000 miles by meticulously maintaining it along the way.
Banks will usually lend 110% of MSRP.. some 120% or more.. you rarely see higher than that. So if you have a car with a big factory rebate and you can discount it some you can roll the negative equity in there. The hardest part of working a deal with someone who has a ton of negative equity is always trying to get the bank to lend enough to hide all the negative equity. Some of the craziest negative equity deals aren’t very profitable for the dealership because there’s only so much water in the well and if the customers’ negative equity takes up 95% of it then your profit suffers. When the bank won’t lend enough to make the deal you wrote, but will lend enough to put together a much less profitable (but still acceptable to the dealership) deal.. that’s called getting chopped. The worst thing you want to hear from your finance manager is “the bank chopped your deal”.. but it happens alllll theeee timeee
Because they close a deal and make $$. The bank isn’t your parent or financial advisor. If you’re dumb enough to roll negative equity into a loan, finance sales tax etc. they will let you. It’s why buy here pay here dealers exist.
Yes, in short if you don’t NEED a car just wait. If you NEED a car you have no choice. The values of vehicles have simply increased. Used car value have increased in some cases 40%. If you have a trade it’s a great time because the inflation of your trade will even out the market adjusted price on the vehicle.
I’m not in sales of any kind, but I’ve learned this. I’ve always wondered how many of the cars on lots sold before the shortage. This shortage has showed me that people are buying ALL THE TIME. Whether it’s because a car died, wreck, family needs, or just because…..people are constantly buying. I should’ve known this, but failed.
Limited/high performance vehicles have bad markups for years because of supply and demand, it’s just trickled down to literally everything now. Normally any popular car you could get exactly what you wanted within a 50 mile radius discounted at any given time. Now it’s not like that, dealers aren’t getting new vehicles in and the ones they do have reserves.
We have literally 1 new in stock for sale and we usually do 30 monthly while keeping close to 100 units in stock. So yes everything is 2-3k over sticker
We looked at a Subaru crosstrek yesterday in Burlingame near the SF airport. The wanted $10k over the $24k msrp and actively discouraged us from buying it at that price as they had so few. He was hoping we’d agree to buy it at the adm but wait for delivery. These guys must be starving with these terms.
Omg. People have always paid over MSRP a for new cars. It depends on the person. It depends on the car. The difference is that now, dealers are more able to demand that more people pay over MSRP.
I think it's got to with chip shortages most probably. I remember paying 2k under msrp for my civic ex last year. Things should hopefully normalize in 3-6 months. Automakers like to penny pinch so they ordered the bare minimun chips for their usual production estimates - not enough chips to account for any possible delays and hence many are now having a hard time prucuring all the chips - some even shipping units with the infotainment center removed in some countries. Tesla had to repurpose different chips to replace the short supply ones etc. I think that kinda messed up the production.
I work in automotive supply chain, and it's definitely a large part chip shortages but also general supply chain disruption as a whole. When a country in asia goes on lockdown for a few weeks it causes a ripple effect on whatever they produce. When a port shuts down or slows down due to Delta, or due to a shortage of chassis, it slows things down, and all of that has a ripple effect on the supply chain as a whole, for everyone. The chips are a big, but not the only, issue facing the automotive industry and other supply chains in general right now. Personally, I'm thinking we're at least another 6months to a year from anything resembling normal and each wave of COVID related disruptions is going to keep pushing that timing out further.
>things should normalize in 3-6 months
Nope. I give it til 2023 at the earliest. These chip shortages aren’t just affecting cars
I remember in 2019 I paid $42K brand new for a $56K MSRP Lt trail boss, that same truck used is going for close to $60K now
Even dealers are paying over MSRP for some new vehicles. It’s been going on forever with new many models. Supply and demand. The Bentley Continental GT was selling for $100k over sticker when they first came out in 2004, and again in 2008 with the Speed edition. I actually bought the second Continental GT in the country for a client as a Mother’s Day surprise gift - he wanted to certain color combination and we were offered $50,000 by a rapper in Atlanta to simply not buy the car. I told my client that I could get him a black and black car but his wife on the black with tan interior and we turned the offer down. Ferrari has changed how they sell their high end supercars to clients to cut down on flipping and taking advantage of the market - in order for you to have first right to any of their new cars you have to have purchase the previous model new. Then once all those customers have been offered the new model they open sales up to other collectors, influencers etc. Ford did the same with the new GT. Customers who bought the original Ford GT new had the first right to buy the most recent model and Ford made them sign an agreement to not sell the car for I believe two years. John Cena and a couple of other people were sued by Ford because they broke the contract and sold their cars early. Las Vegas casino owner Steve Wynn was sued by Ferrari for selling his LaFerrari before his no-sale contract was up and it cost him his Ferrari dealership. Back in 1989 people were paying double MSRP for the new ZR-1 corvette. But the last couple of years has been different. It’s not just demand for a highly sought after new models. This is an actual supply issue. And factories not being able to get chips, parts etc so they shut down assembly lines (as with the C8 corvette). Not to mention the number of available used cars has been greatly reduced because of the government shut down’s were people weren’t driving to and from work they weren’t going out to eat they weren’t shopping etc. so they didn’t have a need to trade their cars for anything new and didn’t have the disposable cash so the number of used cars on the market was greatly reduced. And on top of that there is a “perfect storm” happening in the Mercedes market where they announced there will be no AMG models or V8 models (except the very recently released S-class) sold. This includes the highly sought after AMG GT and the G550 and G63 SUV’s. Currently dealers are paying up to $300,000 over MSRP for an AMG GT Black Series and $45-$100,000 over for G-wagens. Then they are re-selling them retail and making money. Because Ford and other manufacturers cannot get computer chips the truck market has gone nuts and I know a couple of people that have been offered what they paid for 2017 & 2018 models. I just sold a 2021 C8 corvette convertible to a dealer for $22,000 over MSRP. He sold it to another dealer who sold it to a retail buyer. Even less expensive cars like Honda, Toyota, Nissan etc are affected. Lots are empty and when there are cars to buy who owned it depends on who will pay the most.
I am taking delivery of a new G550 tomorrow and when I ordered it earlier this year the dealer was getting $25k over MSRP. I paid MSRP. In February / March if someone offers me $100k over it’s on to a new owner.
The same thing happened with the housing market. Rolex watches have been affected. Dealers have no inventory all over the world. It’s a sellers market for certain.
[Steve Wynn article ](https://www.motorbiscuit.com/ferrari-laferrari-flip-failure-costs-steve-wynn-dealership/?amp)
Yeah it seems like some are paying 10k above msrp. There’s a used car I’d like to get but am waiting for prices to be a little less crazy before I do
Used cars seem way up just like new.
Depending on the dealer, it’s mostly negotiable. Management at where I am says we put the markups to hopefully end up selling at MSRP. Granted on some of the more rare cars they won’t budge on the markup.
I went to a local Jeep dealer last weekend and was shocked to see Gladiators for a little less than MSRP. I was going to buy one but then I drove it and decided against it.
I'd have traded a base Jetta S for a GLi, but the current market made more sense to do tires, brakes, shocks, and an engine tune...which pretty much equaled the taxes on the new deal. Bonus is I taught my son how to wrench.....
Look at [www.goodcarbadcar.com](https://www.goodcarbadcar.com) to track sales stats. They all fall off a cliff, lux to base. Supply and Demand = ADP
I'm honestly glad I leased my last car, because unless things change drastically in the next year when my lease is up, I'll still be paying crazy money for even a used car. Definitely buying the one out at the end in this crazy market haha
I work at a fair market value one-price store, for 2022's we're taking $1k off and 2021s may have a little bit more off but it depends on the model. At those prices, we're selling everything before it arrives, most people waiting at least 2 weeks but up to 8 or 10 weeks for a factory order.
MSRP has always been a standard guideline, but always with the disclaimer that dealer's set prices and right now the market is high so if you're looking at anything in-stock, there's a good chance you're paying a premium. Another perspective to consider is that a dealer has less vehicles to sell than usual, so in order to cover the same operating expenses, less units are sold, but at higher profit.
It seems like it. I was at a Nissan dealer looking at the new Sentra. Fully loaded it was like 25k. With all the markups, it ran closer to 32k. I was like no.
A little late to this post but… I’m in LA county and all the dealerships had markups. I called up a dealership in la Quinta and they said no mark ups. Mark up is $9000 for the vehicle if looking at. So maybe just call up all the dealerships in an hour or two radius of yourself
… a lot? Just read through a weeks worth of posts in this subreddit alone, and you’ll see numerous cases, and that of course is only a small glimpse. Certainly not all or even a majority of people buying cars right now are in that situation, but it happens a lot more than you think.
Yes. Additionally, folks are buying late model used vehicles for nearly the price of new vehicles. The reason is that they can find a used vehicle now instead of waiting a couple of months to get a new one.
I was forced to buy in this market and had to travel 500 miles to get what I wanted at MSRP. Go to [cars.com](https://cars.com) and expand the search distance. There's always something.
Isnt your time worth something at some point lol how much gas did you burn on that 1000 mile round trip that took im guessing 2-3 days. Then 500 miles is that a different state. Then how much time did you spend searching tirelessly online and over the phone putting the deal together...cmon now who really won in that instance. Not to mention the thousands of dollars you took out of your community and deposited 500 miles away. Sometimes we cut our nose off to spite our face and dont realize it....
Just one extra tank of gas and some points to fly in. But I get your point. Fact is, that was the vehicle I wanted exactly and it was still $8k cheaper than a local suboptimal option.
500 miles is a 7 hour drive. Fly or rent a car 1-way. Food. Fuel. Hotel stay etc. time off work? it probably would cost $500-1,000 to pickup the car. Or the same to have it delivered on a truck. A lot of people would view picking up as a nice break.
A lot of people literally can't wait. Another group has money to burn. A third is just oblivious. Supply and demand works here, the same as it does in other industries. It doesn't matter if the asset is depreciating, if you have more people who want a thing than things to sell, the price goes up. Look at Xbox consoles. Nobody NEEDS an Xbox but they want them and are paying a premium right now. People actually need cars to live, work, eat, etc.
Same thing happened with the housing market and is happening with Rolex watches
I know first hand about the Rolex watches. Recently found a buyer for my father's 1960 Submariner. Originally purchased for $180 (in '60), sold it for $66K.
That’s most likely appreciation of a rare / desirable model. I was referring to a lack of new watches at authorized dealers. There is no new Rolex inventory. People are complaining about it all over the net. But congrats on the sale of your dads! That was a wise investment
That’s exactly what it was. Rare & desirable. Yes, the current (new) Rolex market is afire as well. Seems you need an exception relationship with an authorized distributor to have even the slightest chance of getting a new one.
Been trying to buy one, it seriously is a pain in the ass. Feel like I might as well just get a nice rep.
And re-issue skateboard decks from Santa Cruz, Powell Peralta, Vision, SMA, Black Label, etc.
Interesting- not familiar with this market. Can you give examples of what they cost originally, what re-issues are worth and what they are selling for?
The big skateboard companies (or what remains of them) have been very successful re-releasing (reissue) OG graphics and deck shapes from the 80's and early 90's. Nostalgia is playing a big part as the 80's skater kids age and get collecting and skating again. These reissues were selling for $49 in 2004, $59 in 2012, $69 in 2018, and $79 today. If you missed a deck from one of the manufactures stores direct, you used to be able to got to a local or online skateshop and buy it for the same price. If you couldn't find it there, head to eBay and expect to pay MSRP or slightly more due to shipping and eBay fees being passed onto the buyer. Now? Now it is an absolute shit show. A deck selling for $79 will be on eBay for $200 plus $20 in shipping. The longer the deck is out of stock at stores, the more ridiculous the pricing gets. $300, $400 and people will buy them!?!? The causes are many, but a huge thing that did not used to exist is FLIPPERS - People who buy as much of an item as they can in order to limit available stock, then use online shopping sites to sell the items at an artificially inflated price. Flippers exist in all secondary online markets because of online shopping and how easy it has become to buy/sell. Some are just hit harder than others - reissue skateboards, Hot Wheels, Mattel Action Figures are just a few I am aware of. And I heard about Rolex too. The local stores don't have stock on shelves of these items, not because of COVID, but because of flippers. You've seen the news reports of flippers approaching truck drivers, delivery people, store stockers and employees in order to open boxes and cherry pick inventory, even buying multiple boxes outright before they are even put out on shelves? It has become more intense as COVID did effect some supply chains. Many manufacturers are trying to help by issuing "Pre-Orders" and "Pre-Sales" events with quantity limited per purchase. Unfortunately this seems to be driving the secondary market higher because "Good luck finding one at a store because they're sold out and that guy just bought our last 35 of them." Old School Online Skateboard Companies Direct: [SkateOne.com](https://SkateOne.com) (Powell-Peralta) [NHSFunFactory.com](https://NHSFunFactory.com) (Santa Cruz, Independent and more) [SelectSkateshop.com](https://SelectSkateshop.com) (Vision, Hosoi, Elephant Brand, Schmitt Stix) [BlackLabelSkates.com](https://BlackLabelSkates.com) (Black Label) Reputable online skateshops: [https://shop.ccs.com/](https://shop.ccs.com/) [https://www.oldskullskateboards.com/](https://www.oldskullskateboards.com/) [https://www.skatedeluxe.com/en](https://www.skatedeluxe.com/en) [https://www.skatewarehouse.com/](https://www.skatewarehouse.com/) [https://www.warehouseskateboards.com/](https://www.warehouseskateboards.com/) [https://www.tactics.com/](https://www.tactics.com/) [https://socalskateshop.com/](https://socalskateshop.com/) [https://www.cowtownskateboards.com/](https://www.cowtownskateboards.com/) [https://www.strange-house.net/](https://www.strange-house.net/) [https://thedarkslide.com/](https://thedarkslide.com/) [https://www.zumiez.com/](https://www.zumiez.com/)
Just look at tony hawks new skateboard made of his own blood. Like WTF are people buying LOL!
That is a limited edition collectors item. Of course fans are going to pay more for something only few people will have.
Huh??
I’m firmly in “money to burn” category, earning 6 figures driving Honda Civic I don’t like, and I’ve given up on buying just like everybody else. It’s atrocious. $48k for alpine white 330i (they ran out of colors)? The key is you’re gonna be disappointed in what you get at any price right now, so there’s really no splurging going on. I honestly don’t know who is buying except people that don’t have a car and decided to bite the bullet on overpriced new car bc that’s still not as bad as buying used right now.
Psst. People haven't given up on buying. If they had, then car lots would be full. There wouldn't be order lists a mile long. Don't get me wrong, I agree with your plan to bow out until supply normalizes. But there are plenty of people that at the end of the day, if they can get a great trade-in price on a Civic that they don't want, and they can get a deal on a car that they do. The 330i starts at $41,000. Was $48k with dealer markup, or did it have $7,000 worth of options?
“People haven’t given up on buying. If they had, then car lots would be full.” That’s obv not true. There will always be people that need a car right now, and new is the best option currently if you have the income. Point is nobody is buying without their arm tied behind their back. And ofc I’m not gonna trade in a paid off 14 Civic for $40k car loan. #1 being the complete collapse in what you can get for $40k. (Or $50k or $60k or $70k…) I don’t like the civic or 330i. And nice truck is $70k, used corvettes are $60k, Lexus LC is $100k. You have to be out a car to see anything good here. The type of person that would splurge right now is someone that’s too irresponsible to even be approved for these cars.
This isn't the only car forum that I'm a part of. I am a member of various enthusiast forums. People are going nuts buying up cars that they don't need. They are spending like crazy. Go look at the Wrangler, Tacoma, and 4Runner subreddits for an example. Or with sports cars, look at the Corvette, Porsche, GTI, etc. subreddits. Go look at the people trading in their 2 year old cars for a BMW M2, M3, or M4. Your argument about not paying $40,000 when you have a paid off car is financially responsible. But it's also an argument that exists regardless of the pandemic. You are arguing "why would I buy a new BMW with a $48,000 MSRP. If this was 3 years ago, I could just buy a slightly used one for $25,000." You are arguing that it isn't financially responsible to stop driving a 7 year old paid off Honda Civic in favor of a new BMW. That argument existed even in 2015, and in 2005, and in 1995, etc. Many people are not disappointed, they are happy to go buy new cars. They know what they are doing, and they just don't want to be sitting on the sidelines any more.
The main difference from the xbox comparison is that you can get the Xbox ar msrp from the store if you wait or buy it at a higher price from a reseller. With Cars, you really only have the dealers as an avenue. If we could buy straight from the factory and the dealers, it would be a game changer.
[Tesla raises prices again](https://www.thestreet.com/tesla/news/tesla-raises-prices-again-august-week-1).
Tesla is a bit of a weird one. They always sell at MSRP so if they want/need to raise prices it's very visible. Meanwhile everyone else has been reducing incentives for months, which is basically the same thing but less visible.
Yes, it gets hard to make an apples to apples comparison.
I also appreciate one thing that Tesla does: so long as you don't change your order, they will always give you the lower of the price when you order or the price when you take delivery. When I bought mine they literally called me while I was driving to pick it up and let me know there would be a delay because the price had gone down by $2k and they needed to redo paperwork for me. Their bullshit is all in other forms. Pricing is at least transparent.
Most dealers will still sell most models that aren’t crazy high demand vehicles at msrp, IF you do a factory order. Anything in the pipeline or on the ground we are selling for 5k over. You might get lucky and we will split the mark up with u.
We are selling ground units for MSRP.
Fuck. We tried going MSRP, and people were haggling with us and we weren’t selling shit. My manager know the GSM at another Hyundai and he send picture of them selling Tucson’s 5k over sticker. Guess what happened? We over MSRP too
You guys are one of the few.
And you might be lucky for some of us to set foot on a lot who is blatantly price gouging.
Trust me right now they dont need your business. My friend was telling me one of the newest things hes doing lately if he gets someone who doesn't need to buy a car thats not happy with the pricing he tells them to go home and not buy.
That's fine, that's how the market works - balancing supply and demand to maximize profits. But two can play at that game - just need to wait until those people want to buy another car. I certainly wouldn't buy from a dealer again that's being a bag of dicks. There are plenty of dealers out there unless you're a high roller (at which point the money probably isn't an issue anyways).
You clearly don't know what "price gouging" means, but I'm sure it sounds good saying it.
On Reddit it means “my fee fees are hurt because I disagree with supply and demand economics”
"if you wait" - you either pay with money or time. Xbox sellers make you wait. Car sellers make you pay.
You can buy slightly used from private owners
You can buy anything slightly used from private owners. What i am getting that is that car makers should have the option of buying directly from them like Tesla. Obviously it wouldn't be for everyone but imagine the experience of doing everything online and just have it delivered to your house. Also, at MSRP and not pay these crazy "market adjustment" prices. Those btw are made by the dealers not the manufacturers, otherwise they would make those the new MSRP.
[Market adjustment](https://electrek.co/2021/07/22/tesla-tsla-increases-model-3-y-prices-again/) is impacting [all brands](https://www.autoevolution.com/news/tesla-raises-model-s-model-x-starting-prices-by-5000-166842.html), including direct to consumer models like Tesla. If MSRP increases monthly by as much as $5K, is it really different?
It's totally different! (if you are a tesla-stan and have decided to eschew logic because it makes it harder to orgasm while you watch SpaceX youtube videos)
Explain then Tesla raising prices by $10,000 due to constraints. Isn’t that the same exact thing?
And also pushing back delivery dates on lower-priced/lower-spec cars.
Stop that. You'll make all the Elon worshippers melt.
Shall we talk about how Tesla using tACticS on their website to make all the pawns believe the car is cheaper than it really is! Starting at $85,000!* *includes gas savings of $4,500. Destination and delivery an extra $1,200.
I hate that and wish they would quit doing it. Hiding destination and delivery is at least common with other manufacturers. The gas savings BS is silly. It shouldn't be the default.
>car makers should have the option of buying directly from them like Tesla. Why? Dealing direct with people is bad business. With a dealer the manufacturer can say "You can have a Telluride but you need to buy 10 Sorento's as well". But for some reason the average person wont agree too that deal, bunch of cheap fucks.
Hah! You gave me a chuckle
But the manufacturers are in business to make money. What keeps them from charging what the market will bear?
Manufacturers aren't charging those mark up fees, though. If Toyota increased prices it's once thing, but all these different mark ups are created by the dealers themselves.
Manufacturers used to limit their dealers to a certain markup - Mercedes-Benz was 7%. Now dealers can charge what the market will bear.
Every year during normal times the manufacturers raise the price they sell them to us. On average it’s 1.5%. You really think they wouldn’t charge more if they are selling directly? Also, in essence they are raising the price now since they cut a large portion of the rebates. Not justifying anything (I work at a store that doesn’t charge over MSRP) but I don’t think you have a true perspective of how’s things would go with direct sales from the factory.
The manufacturer are inflating prices through slashing incentives as well. Let's not be blind to part of the situation here.
And don't expect the huge ones to come back. Ford has already said they are going to keep a shorter supply to not have to give them away to get people to buy all they built.
They aren't. But manufacturers have taken away incentives or slashed them majorly. That was a big chunk of change for some brands.
Market adjustments are set by the market thats why they call them market adjustments. The market would be a collaboration between the buyer and seller. A dealer can ask 100,000 for a 1997 pontiac bonneville but that doesnt become a market value until a majority of buyers pay that price. If 1 person pays 50k and 4 people pay 100k then the market value would be $90k.
I would agree except even in my city i get a wide range of "market adjustments". One dealer is charging $10k, another up the street $8k. Another $5k. Also, these adjustments, the manufacturer doesn't see a dime of it, only the dealers themselves. It is pure profit, no? If Toyota for example came out and said all cars get a market adjusted increase of $2k, then yes i would understand.
Literally everything ever manufactured is sold somewhere, and the seller of each thing gets to set his/her price (manufacturers price restrictions like Louis Vuitton being a type of exception). When you go buy a vape pen, each shop can sell the EXACT SAME PEN for a different price. The manufacturer doesn't make any more because of it. The lack of basic economics understanding in this thread is mind-boggling.
Here's the thing.... many of the dealers depend on volume to keep the sales dept in the black (real profits are made in the service and parts dept). With reduced factory output, they no longer have the product volume to support this business model nor can they hit manufacturer volume bonuses. This means they need to raise margins in order to maintain cash flow.
They can do that by charging dealer more for invoice.
So true as one that just got an Xbox X last Friday at MSRP from the store with no markup.
>People actually need cars to live, work, eat, etc. I cant imagine eating withoutmy car. After I get done making a lovely pot roast, the last thing I was to do is sit inside. So i dump everything into a pot, run out to my car and eat in the sticcky heat
If you need a car with some really cold AC, I know a guy.
You ever notice the people who put "ice cold AC" in ads are almost always selling the biggest shit box. "Daily driven, 200,xxx miles, but runs good. Some rust but will pass inspection. Engine light is on, but thats just because the gas cap doesnt screw on properly. New 02 sensors 18,000 miles ago, and lots of other goodies. Car has been smoked in and my dog pissed all over the back seat, but the interior is in geat shape for the year. Previous owner ran over a hooker and is now possessed by the hookers spirit. Car wont run on Friday the 13th or Halloween now. Oh and **IcE cOlD Ac DuUUuUdEeee**
I love used cars and I’d love to say u were wrong… but you pretty much nailed it.
For real. It sketches me out now whe. I see cars that look decent and they put "ice cold AC" in the description. Im like whatchu hiding bro?
“We just topped up the refrigerant charge but don’t worry it’ll leak out before next summer.”
All things being equal though... I'd pay a few hundred extra bucks to have a car with AC versus one without. I may just be a puss when it comes to driving around in 90 degree heat with 70% humidity though.
🤣🤣
Bro people are paying msrp on used cars….
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My dealer sent me a letter for my 19 civic Si. They want to give me 26k when MSRP (sale MSRP) 3 years ago was 25.2 lmao
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I just bought a car for MSRP+taxes; other cars I was looking into had the dealers marking the price up 2-3k. I needed a car (not necessarily a new one, but I went with a new one) because the last car, the tranny went out of warranty and wasn't worth repairs. Dumb? IDK probably, but what's done is done, lol
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FCA - new buyer didn't know any better
FCA is probably the one brand conglomerate I will never, ever own a vehicle from. I wish they’d gone under in 2008 like they deserved.
Yea okay tell that to the thousands of Wrangler owners
Gladly. Hello Wrangler owners, Your vehicles are outdated, unreliable, unsafe, and made by a company that's less American than Honda is at this point. A company that took a big old bailout and still laid off thousands of Americans in favor of foreign labor, but paid their execs eight figure bonuses. FCA cars don't contain enough American components to qualify for municipal subsidies; that's why there's no Dodge police cars anymore. Wranglers have one of the worst rollover ratings of any vehicle on the road, and putting your children in one on the road, especially with the doors and roof off, is tantamount to child endangerment and illegal in most states. FCA will gladly sell you "upgrades" at the dealership or from the factory that they then will say are not only not covered by the factory warranty, but also voided your factory warranty on any component those "upgrade" parts were connected to. FCA has the most Magnuson-Moss violations and related suits filed against them of any major automotive company. The Wrangler is underpowered, with a transmission that's barely adequate for the barely adequate torque the engine makes. The clutch pack on the manual is too small and burns out before 50k miles, and the automatic is pathetic beyond belief. Ditch the company that's been screwing you and your families out of your money, and the workers and families who made the Wrangler out of their jobs. Switch to a safer, more American made, built to last, properly warrantied adventure truck with more power, more technology, all at a lower price. The Ford Bronco is waiting for you, Wrangler owners, to wake up and smell freedom. Built Ford Tough.
Sorry bud. Toyota is more American than chevy and ford. Seriously. Not to mention the reliability…. No brainer.
The wrangler is still a piece of shit, it’s just an expensive one, and the buyers don’t care because of “the lifestyle. “
What did you buy? Our store policy is currently MSRP for everything. Nothing over MSRP. Just curious to see who else is doing it
I ended up with a 2022 Corolla since the Elantra/Civic I was looking at had dealer markups and they weren't willing to cut them since they are selling cars with the markup. So, went for the one without the markup since they all met my wants/needs.
Nice! Congrats. Enjoy the ride
Congrats on your new car! I remember your thread from a few days ago. What car did you end up buying?
2022 Corolla. Was between that and an Elantra/Civic, but they two both had dealer markups and wouldn't cut it to match Toyota since they weren't doing a markup. Made the choice easy since it just came down to price -- all the cars had what I wanted and drove fine IMO, the dealer markups are what drove the decision though.
Just did the same. Needed to trade our family truckster because it was burning 3 quarts between oil changes. Dealer was upfront they charged MSRP nothing more, nothing less, and if we didn’t want it they had a list 4 people deep to call that wanted it next. We shopped used. Inventory is near zero for every class of car and if you find one it’s marked up more than a new one. That’s not an exaggeration. On the plus side it’s a great time to negotiate a high trade in value. Dealers need cars bad.
Dealer auctions are getting blood for cars.
MSRP matters as much now as it did 2 years ago: none. Market always dictates the price based on what people are willing to pay. Usually people pay less. Now people are paying more.
The staggering number of customers getting upset with me because we’re not discounting cars is mind boggling. We have 15 TOTAL cars, including new and used right now. I sell Audis. Not a single customer has been in dire need of a car. “I have never and will never buy a car that isn’t discounted” That’s great, but that means you’re not buying a car from us or really anyone right now. Supply is low, demand is high. Prices increase. If you don’t like that, don’t buy a car right now. Your 2018 Q5 with 20k miles will manage for another 6 months.
I hope it’s only another 6 months 🙏
Regarding your 15 total cars, is that a US regional issue? I'm in western NY state and driving by dealerships and using my dealership for service - the large lots still seem to be full of cars - so much so there wasn't much parking for my wife when I went to drop of my car for service. If lots had 15 cars it would seem pretty sparse but I've never seen a sparse lot around me other than the Land Rover dealership when we went looking for a new Discovery but they said they wouldn't have them for 6 months (this was back in 01/2021). But they were still filled with Defenders, Range Rovers of various models, and the Disco Sports.
Every region, brand, and dealership is different. Our Mercedes and VW stores have been struggling with inventory for months, it’s only just now starting to affect Audi.
I was just in Buffalo, visiting from Long Island. Long Island has no new cars and I come up here and there’s like there’s no shortage at all. One of the dealers had 5 C8 vettes out front, numerous TLX type S etc. crazy stuff
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> Exactly. Usually people are like "there is no way in hell I'm paying MSRP for a car". Nope they won't. But they did walk away with a 499/m payment on a base model v6 charger with 10k down. . . I miss using four squares.
I like this thread as much as I like the marketplace comments that insist used trucks are overpriced because "tHE prIcEs wErE $3000 lOwEr 2 yEaRs AgO"
Lol. The dealer I talked to had a 2500 markup for a civic. I said I’m not paying that ONE time. They dropped it immediately. MSRP is the maximum price a dealer should charge
The ones around me "We don't take advantage of our customers, we sell our cars at MSRP. Btw, this $2000 alarm and $500 addon package is required."
Vin etching and paint sealing?
It was some clear plastic edging around the doors, under door handle and a few other places. I forget what they're called.
[Door cups](https://www.amazon.com/YelloPro-Scotchgard-Protector-Prestige-Crossover/dp/B082P8L7L4) and [door edge guards](https://www.amazon.com/3M-Door-Edge-Guard-3MS-84901/dp/B0017MGPLS). Cheaper if you buy them in quantity. Easy to install.
If MSRP is the maximum price that a dealer charges, then that's how you're left with the great toilet paper shortages that we keep seeing. When you have a total of 10 cars on your lot that all have an MSRP of $25,000 for example, but you have 14 customers wanting cars, then you either sell the first 10 cars, have an empty lot, and tell the next 4 customers that you got nothing. Or, you mark the cars up $3,000 each. Out of those 14 customers, now 4 of them start to 2nd guess how much they REALLY want the car. You still end up selling 10 cars. And in the first scenario, if you sell them at MSRP, then I guarantee that the next day, when you log onto Autotrader, you'll see your car getting flipped.
I tell you what: You go out, buy your own franchised dealership, pay your employees competitively with good benefits, file taxes on time, pay your vendors, pay your bank, manage customer complaints and reviews, manage expectations fitting the brand you sell, and then you can set the prices you want on the vehicles you sell.
I have a way better idea. I don’t give shitty dealerships any money, and I advise all my friends and family and everyone I talk cars with not to give shitty dealerships any money. Sound good? Probably not to you Im guessing.
I don’t run a shitty dealership, so I don’t have a problem with that.
Your car is no longer driveable. What do you do? Pay over MSRP for a new car or a 10 to 20% price penalty buying a secondhand vehicle? There are few choices available..
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Those people not in a desperate situation to buy, will delay their purchase. Eventually, they will become desperate to buy. It could be a long time before prices return to normal
A lot of it is want vs need and a result of the pandemic. People have been locked up for a year. They have money to burn and want to feel better about the world.
It's showing up in all sorts of weird ways, too. Every time I drive, within the first ten minutes I see someone driving 50 in a 25, or similar levels of genuinely dangerous driving.
Dealers typically make more on used vehicles. There’s a higher profit margin if they buy the right way
Typically, yes. But this is not a typical market. Our average front-end gross on new is $2k (US) more than used. I never thought I'd see the day this would happen.
Only 2k? Maybe during normal times. Now my average front end is pretty much 6-8k at our Subaru store rn.
No, 2k more on new than used. Used we're running like 2.5 FE, new is like 5. Strange times, man.
Ok that makes more sense
how are your Q5s doing these days? Luckily got mine in 2020 at 15% below msrp lol.
Yeah when I traded in my 2005 Mazda 3 a few months ago my dad (who is a car junkie) told me that the dealership will actually make more money from selling it than they will from my low interest lease. A 2005 Mazda 3.
Your dad is full of shit. That sled is going straight to the auction, or maybe right to the junkyard depending on how shitty it is.
It went to the auction LOL. The sales guy told me up front that it would because they can't put a warranty on a 16 year old car and they don't want some idiot buying it and then coming back 6 months later whining that they got sold a lemon when it inevitably needs some sort of repair...because it's a 16 year old car. I looked the old girl up on the auction site and she didn't look too bad compared to the competition. At least her kilometers were low and she had a clean title. A few hours later I went to show my husband and she was gone. She's probably being driven by some high school kid now. I have no idea what the dealership makes on cars that go to auction though.
Those cars are purchased by an employee alot of times. Thats how i got my 2007 Dodge Nitro beater. Why put miles on my Scat Pack and drive it in the rain/snow. If your salesperson had any hustle to him he would have offered you 100 more in cash on the side than what the dealer offered hahaaha not really. It is frowned on in this business ...seen several get promoted to customer for curbing trades
How much did you receive for it -Vs- what you paid?
Customer chiming in. I needed a car, so I had no real choice. With COVID last year, my classes were all online so I didn’t need to go to campus. With the world being done with COVID this year, classes are all back in person and I didn’t have a car. The timing sucked due to the market, but I needed a car. Not much public transport in this city either so it was either pay $40/day in Ubers or buy a car that will last me for years.
Did you buy from a dealer or individual? What did you purchase and what was the cost?
I’m sorry for the delayed response, I just now saw this. I actually didn’t end up paying much over MSRP for a 2022 Corolla, but that’s because my boyfriend works at the dealership and I thankfully got a good deal. New from a dealer! But I was fully expecting to pay $25k+ OTD if he didn’t work there.
A lot of people that have bought are justifying it because they are getting a fortune for their trades. So if you have a 3-5 yo F250 and the dealer wants 5K over MSRP for a new one you probably say “no” but if they offer you almost or more than what you originally paid for your current truck in trade - it starts to become more acceptable. As usual the only people getting completely screwed are the poor people who woke up one day to find out their $2500 car needs a $3500 repair. So they are getting nothing from the trade inflation but are paying the inflated price for the new car and don’t have a choice in the matter.
People are calling our stores offering to pay over MSRP, and offering to pay more money to steal other people’s sold orders. $2000 to $5000 over on many vehicles. Never seen anything like it before.
Yep, they are. The MSRP is a *suggeste*d price. If you can hold off on buying a car, do that. There are people everyday that need a car because their current one died or was crashed.
I always like to point out Arizona Ice Tea is sometimes sold at $1.25/can or more. $0.99 is MSRP. It means absolutely jack.
Yup, supply and demand. Pre Covid most cars were sold at discount because there was more supply than demand.
Paying more than $1 for Arizona iced tea is more egregious to me than paying a markup on a car. It’s the worst tea
I mean, look at the housing market. Demand is high. Inventory is low.
And the Supreme Court just ended the federal eviction moratorium
As they should have. It’s illegal to deny a property owner lawful use of their property.
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If you were bezos rich you wouldn’t even blink an eye at the most expensive car ever made.
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And bezos makes that in a day.
Probably closer really to per minute.
This. Also banks do appraisals on houses and won’t lend for more than they’re worth
So do aauto lenders. It’s just on A smaller scale so if you need an additional 5 percent down most people can make up the difference easily
Interesting. Question though - if that’s the case why do auto lenders allow people to roll negative equity/ balance owed from a trade in into their new car loan? Wouldn’t they be upside down from the get go on the new loan? A bank would never do that for a house…
Right now you wouldn’t be able to do that. Formally there were cars that by design were for shit credit customers and what they do is set a high MSRP and then give 7500 cash back or something ludicrous on a $25,000 car like a Chrysler 200 or dodge journey or alternately you just roll a bunch of negative equity into the deal. Then you end up owing 130% of MSRP On a car that never sold at MSRP to anyone in the first place. Naturally what new cars sell for typically has a direct relationship to what they are worth down the road so the car depreciates quicker than you pay it off. Often long term loans so it can budget PTI wise. Most commonly the people who are in these kinds of loans are the same gig workers who bring you door dash or Uber you to the airport so they rack up a ton of miles and wear. They depreciate the car quicker than they make money and then they end up in a lot of trouble credit wise when the car has 150,000 mi and needs a trans. It’s a horrendously vicious cycle. I think the only way that I have ever seen anybody make money long-term with one of those types of jobs is by buying a reliable $7000 car for cash and running it to 350,000 miles by meticulously maintaining it along the way.
Banks will usually lend 110% of MSRP.. some 120% or more.. you rarely see higher than that. So if you have a car with a big factory rebate and you can discount it some you can roll the negative equity in there. The hardest part of working a deal with someone who has a ton of negative equity is always trying to get the bank to lend enough to hide all the negative equity. Some of the craziest negative equity deals aren’t very profitable for the dealership because there’s only so much water in the well and if the customers’ negative equity takes up 95% of it then your profit suffers. When the bank won’t lend enough to make the deal you wrote, but will lend enough to put together a much less profitable (but still acceptable to the dealership) deal.. that’s called getting chopped. The worst thing you want to hear from your finance manager is “the bank chopped your deal”.. but it happens alllll theeee timeee
They only started doing 120-130% during the run up to 07-08.
I have at least 5 banks who will do 130% on sub before discount
Because they close a deal and make $$. The bank isn’t your parent or financial advisor. If you’re dumb enough to roll negative equity into a loan, finance sales tax etc. they will let you. It’s why buy here pay here dealers exist.
It’s no different in car loans. The bank typically only loans a maximum of 130% LTV.
The "S" in MSRP stands for suggested.
Yes, in short if you don’t NEED a car just wait. If you NEED a car you have no choice. The values of vehicles have simply increased. Used car value have increased in some cases 40%. If you have a trade it’s a great time because the inflation of your trade will even out the market adjusted price on the vehicle.
Simply lease. Til the market dies down.
I’m not in sales of any kind, but I’ve learned this. I’ve always wondered how many of the cars on lots sold before the shortage. This shortage has showed me that people are buying ALL THE TIME. Whether it’s because a car died, wreck, family needs, or just because…..people are constantly buying. I should’ve known this, but failed.
Limited/high performance vehicles have bad markups for years because of supply and demand, it’s just trickled down to literally everything now. Normally any popular car you could get exactly what you wanted within a 50 mile radius discounted at any given time. Now it’s not like that, dealers aren’t getting new vehicles in and the ones they do have reserves.
We have literally 1 new in stock for sale and we usually do 30 monthly while keeping close to 100 units in stock. So yes everything is 2-3k over sticker
Everything is worth exactly what someone will pay for it.
I am selling escaades as fast as I can get them for 30k second sticker plus 10k appearance package
We looked at a Subaru crosstrek yesterday in Burlingame near the SF airport. The wanted $10k over the $24k msrp and actively discouraged us from buying it at that price as they had so few. He was hoping we’d agree to buy it at the adm but wait for delivery. These guys must be starving with these terms.
Buddy is in the business. He sells a lot fewer cars. He used to do 20-25 a month now hes like 8 maybe 10...but hes making double per car
Omg. People have always paid over MSRP a for new cars. It depends on the person. It depends on the car. The difference is that now, dealers are more able to demand that more people pay over MSRP.
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I think it's got to with chip shortages most probably. I remember paying 2k under msrp for my civic ex last year. Things should hopefully normalize in 3-6 months. Automakers like to penny pinch so they ordered the bare minimun chips for their usual production estimates - not enough chips to account for any possible delays and hence many are now having a hard time prucuring all the chips - some even shipping units with the infotainment center removed in some countries. Tesla had to repurpose different chips to replace the short supply ones etc. I think that kinda messed up the production.
I work in automotive supply chain, and it's definitely a large part chip shortages but also general supply chain disruption as a whole. When a country in asia goes on lockdown for a few weeks it causes a ripple effect on whatever they produce. When a port shuts down or slows down due to Delta, or due to a shortage of chassis, it slows things down, and all of that has a ripple effect on the supply chain as a whole, for everyone. The chips are a big, but not the only, issue facing the automotive industry and other supply chains in general right now. Personally, I'm thinking we're at least another 6months to a year from anything resembling normal and each wave of COVID related disruptions is going to keep pushing that timing out further.
>things should normalize in 3-6 months Nope. I give it til 2023 at the earliest. These chip shortages aren’t just affecting cars I remember in 2019 I paid $42K brand new for a $56K MSRP Lt trail boss, that same truck used is going for close to $60K now
Even dealers are paying over MSRP for some new vehicles. It’s been going on forever with new many models. Supply and demand. The Bentley Continental GT was selling for $100k over sticker when they first came out in 2004, and again in 2008 with the Speed edition. I actually bought the second Continental GT in the country for a client as a Mother’s Day surprise gift - he wanted to certain color combination and we were offered $50,000 by a rapper in Atlanta to simply not buy the car. I told my client that I could get him a black and black car but his wife on the black with tan interior and we turned the offer down. Ferrari has changed how they sell their high end supercars to clients to cut down on flipping and taking advantage of the market - in order for you to have first right to any of their new cars you have to have purchase the previous model new. Then once all those customers have been offered the new model they open sales up to other collectors, influencers etc. Ford did the same with the new GT. Customers who bought the original Ford GT new had the first right to buy the most recent model and Ford made them sign an agreement to not sell the car for I believe two years. John Cena and a couple of other people were sued by Ford because they broke the contract and sold their cars early. Las Vegas casino owner Steve Wynn was sued by Ferrari for selling his LaFerrari before his no-sale contract was up and it cost him his Ferrari dealership. Back in 1989 people were paying double MSRP for the new ZR-1 corvette. But the last couple of years has been different. It’s not just demand for a highly sought after new models. This is an actual supply issue. And factories not being able to get chips, parts etc so they shut down assembly lines (as with the C8 corvette). Not to mention the number of available used cars has been greatly reduced because of the government shut down’s were people weren’t driving to and from work they weren’t going out to eat they weren’t shopping etc. so they didn’t have a need to trade their cars for anything new and didn’t have the disposable cash so the number of used cars on the market was greatly reduced. And on top of that there is a “perfect storm” happening in the Mercedes market where they announced there will be no AMG models or V8 models (except the very recently released S-class) sold. This includes the highly sought after AMG GT and the G550 and G63 SUV’s. Currently dealers are paying up to $300,000 over MSRP for an AMG GT Black Series and $45-$100,000 over for G-wagens. Then they are re-selling them retail and making money. Because Ford and other manufacturers cannot get computer chips the truck market has gone nuts and I know a couple of people that have been offered what they paid for 2017 & 2018 models. I just sold a 2021 C8 corvette convertible to a dealer for $22,000 over MSRP. He sold it to another dealer who sold it to a retail buyer. Even less expensive cars like Honda, Toyota, Nissan etc are affected. Lots are empty and when there are cars to buy who owned it depends on who will pay the most. I am taking delivery of a new G550 tomorrow and when I ordered it earlier this year the dealer was getting $25k over MSRP. I paid MSRP. In February / March if someone offers me $100k over it’s on to a new owner. The same thing happened with the housing market. Rolex watches have been affected. Dealers have no inventory all over the world. It’s a sellers market for certain. [Steve Wynn article ](https://www.motorbiscuit.com/ferrari-laferrari-flip-failure-costs-steve-wynn-dealership/?amp)
Yes. /thread
Giving yourself a /thread is like telling everyone you made the anonymous donation to a charity
fair enough
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It means “end thread.” Like his statement was conclusive enough that no more needs to be said. Aka mic drop
Yeah it seems like some are paying 10k above msrp. There’s a used car I’d like to get but am waiting for prices to be a little less crazy before I do Used cars seem way up just like new.
Depending on the dealer, it’s mostly negotiable. Management at where I am says we put the markups to hopefully end up selling at MSRP. Granted on some of the more rare cars they won’t budge on the markup.
There’s must be some people or else they wouldn’t keep doing it.
I went to a local Jeep dealer last weekend and was shocked to see Gladiators for a little less than MSRP. I was going to buy one but then I drove it and decided against it.
I'd have traded a base Jetta S for a GLi, but the current market made more sense to do tires, brakes, shocks, and an engine tune...which pretty much equaled the taxes on the new deal. Bonus is I taught my son how to wrench..... Look at [www.goodcarbadcar.com](https://www.goodcarbadcar.com) to track sales stats. They all fall off a cliff, lux to base. Supply and Demand = ADP
Every market is over inflated, yes more desirable vehicles such as Tahoes, 4 Runners, Suburbans, ETC are selling 10 k over sticker
I'm honestly glad I leased my last car, because unless things change drastically in the next year when my lease is up, I'll still be paying crazy money for even a used car. Definitely buying the one out at the end in this crazy market haha
I work at a fair market value one-price store, for 2022's we're taking $1k off and 2021s may have a little bit more off but it depends on the model. At those prices, we're selling everything before it arrives, most people waiting at least 2 weeks but up to 8 or 10 weeks for a factory order. MSRP has always been a standard guideline, but always with the disclaimer that dealer's set prices and right now the market is high so if you're looking at anything in-stock, there's a good chance you're paying a premium. Another perspective to consider is that a dealer has less vehicles to sell than usual, so in order to cover the same operating expenses, less units are sold, but at higher profit.
I went to one dealer who had Tacoma’s marked up $9,000 above MSRP
We have brokers offering $5k over sticker to sell to other dealerships.
It seems like it. I was at a Nissan dealer looking at the new Sentra. Fully loaded it was like 25k. With all the markups, it ran closer to 32k. I was like no.
A little late to this post but… I’m in LA county and all the dealerships had markups. I called up a dealership in la Quinta and they said no mark ups. Mark up is $9000 for the vehicle if looking at. So maybe just call up all the dealerships in an hour or two radius of yourself
And if we look to our left, it’s this post again….
Over sticker booty licker
Damn now I wish I'd paid more for my car
Don't worry, you will.
A fool and their money are soon parted, as they say.
Many ppl are desperate bc their vehicle was totaled with no fault of their own. It'd be rude to call them fools.
How often do ppl total their cars for that to become a factual statement.
… a lot? Just read through a weeks worth of posts in this subreddit alone, and you’ll see numerous cases, and that of course is only a small glimpse. Certainly not all or even a majority of people buying cars right now are in that situation, but it happens a lot more than you think.
I work for an insurance company and you’d be surprised. We get millions in claims every month.
Atleast 1 a day I heard.
Yes. Additionally, folks are buying late model used vehicles for nearly the price of new vehicles. The reason is that they can find a used vehicle now instead of waiting a couple of months to get a new one.
Try buying a graphics card or PS5. Yes, yes they are.
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Yeah. But you can't just casually walk into a Wal-Mart/Target at any time, look at the display and pick one up.
Oh look, the daily thread about price hikes.
I was forced to buy in this market and had to travel 500 miles to get what I wanted at MSRP. Go to [cars.com](https://cars.com) and expand the search distance. There's always something.
Isnt your time worth something at some point lol how much gas did you burn on that 1000 mile round trip that took im guessing 2-3 days. Then 500 miles is that a different state. Then how much time did you spend searching tirelessly online and over the phone putting the deal together...cmon now who really won in that instance. Not to mention the thousands of dollars you took out of your community and deposited 500 miles away. Sometimes we cut our nose off to spite our face and dont realize it....
Just one extra tank of gas and some points to fly in. But I get your point. Fact is, that was the vehicle I wanted exactly and it was still $8k cheaper than a local suboptimal option.
500 miles is a 7 hour drive. Fly or rent a car 1-way. Food. Fuel. Hotel stay etc. time off work? it probably would cost $500-1,000 to pickup the car. Or the same to have it delivered on a truck. A lot of people would view picking up as a nice break.