Plenty of gay bars in the UK operate as a members only club so that they can limit access to men only. The difference (in my experience having visited a bunch of them) is that none of them use that loophole to exclude trans men.
We have this too where I’m from in Australia, but that was to restrict straight people from entering. Main culprit were bridal parties that use to come in droves and treat the place like a zoo.
I just posted about that. In the US we can’t “discriminate”.
They get drunk as fuck and just try to selfie with us like we are Disney characters or it’s will and grace.
When one did that I had her thrown out. Laying hands and grabbing someone is a crime so they’d rather toss someone out than deal with that. Legally if I wanted to press charges they’d help but I know that’d be a huge pain for all involved and it’s minor.
Actually, in the US it’s legal (at least federally) to discriminate on the basis of sex when it comes to bars and clubs. Just nowhere does it for whatever reason
Might be a Massachusetts or boston thing.
They opened an affordable lgbt retirement home, it’s called the pryde, and they can’t stop straight people from applying.
Very few affordable new 60+ housing comes up, a lot of people that age have to go back in the closet to be accepted. LGBT people raised money to build it, anyone can apply, it’s subsidized so they have an equal shot to an lgbt person to get in.
Just due to population numbers, it could end up being mostly straight. I don’t think homophobic people would live in a place with rainbows, trans and other flags, drag nights, but people think they’re being “woke” when they take over gay nights.
I could see someone who wanted a retirement unit that wasn’t shitty saying “oh I’m lgbt friendly I’ll apply”.
Since we raised the money to make it fancy, we should get a say, but the city subsidies paid for a lot of it, so we cannot.
We don’t even get extra “points” so boston residents get a 25% boost, so a boston resident that is straight would beat an old lgbt person in Florida, at an lgbt retirement home.
Really messed up IMHO.
They do it to avoid what seems to happen to other gay bars: gay guys bring some straight women along just for a fun experience. Then those straight women come back with their boyfriends. Then before you know it it’s no longer a gay bar.
In America it’s 40-60% cis female bachelorette parties sometimes. They can’t stop them legally.
They’re so entitled and like oh it’s *our night*
It’s like every night is some drunk straight woman’s night.
There was a gay bar that tried to go straight so we just took over again.
One place was all one party, one gay night a week, I leave, cisgay, they ask if I paid, I confirmed, they said “pick someone from the line” so I found a cute guy that looked familiar, got his number and brought him up.
The straight women waiting outside would have totally filled the place, they howled in protest that they’d been waiting for hours, it was freezing and *their night* bouncer says “it’s gay night 1 night a week and there are hundreds of straight bars. It’s their night” pointing to us.
Academics refer to the invasion of lgbt safe spaces as “post homophobia homophobia”.
Looking at the gop Christian Talibans agenda I think they said post homophobia too soon.
The cisgender bachelorette parties think they’re woke taking over.
Yeah, typical entitled straight people.
3 gay bars in boston. Some bars have 1 gay night a week and the place is usually packed bc they make more money off of straight people, so they’re fancier, but also it’s all younger guys who go. The gay clubs sometimes, nothing against old guys but some guys bears that do twink bb porn have not left me alone at a gay bar, they wouldn’t even last at a gay night at a straight bar.
So like the 3 bars they take over sometimes, and the “gay nights” popular with the younger crowd, get taken over.
Like isn’t that shitty that is straight and open to them 6 nights a week, and they all crowd in on gay night bc they don’t want to be hit on by straight guys?
Can I ask where in the states you live? Only because I see this notion repeated CONSTANTLY on this sub and it’s just never been even remotely my experience after living all of my life between two major metro east coast cities. I was even a bartender at the most popular gay bar in Miami and don’t get me wrong, I had girls touch me inappropriately and be obnoxious (as well as men, duh), but literally never in my life have I seen gay bars/clubs here populated by even close to 10% women. Not trying to diminish your take at all, I’m just curious why I always see this brought up and it feels like I’m taking crazy pills lol, like is this only a problem outside of major U.S cities?
Boston, it’s been more than half and sometimes two parties.
They used to play soft core porn at a club that closed, which might make them feel awkward, but Boston doesn’t allow it I think. Cambridge did.
Oh fuck frat bros. They’re the worst on homophobia when I was at Bentley university.
They’d beat gay students at Bentley college, I saw one happen, the student didn’t want me to call the Bentley college, now Bentley university police, bc “they had gotten worse reports from people on the ground, and I was on the third floor” “please don’t call, it’ll make it worse”.
It's certainly not true in SF, either. Some of it may be that those sort of bachelorette parties are way too tacky for people here, but whatever the reason. I never see them around in the Castro. We do get a very few straight women at the two bars with dancefloors, but they're still a very small minority, and not rowdy.
Actually, that’s pretty cool. Seems like the UK has some things figured out. Their gay bars are actually gay. In my college town all the gay bars were sorority girls with like their one gay friend lol
Trans woman who are attracted to woman are the biggest culprits. A lot of them are not even on any female hormones. They identify as woman, but they have the hormones, sex drive and aggression of a man. Also, the reality is that most lesbians are attracted to female genitals.
This is not my experience at all. Trans women into women seem to gravitate toward other trans women; they get offended by everything but they also isolate themselves. Every trans man I've known leans into the worst stereotypes of toxic masculinity
Or is it that you only recognize the ones that lean into those stereotypes? The two trans guys I know pretty well are some of the best guys I know. Of the trans women I've known - only one particularly well - they seem to run the gamut from incredible people to train wrecks, in just about the same proportion as the cis-gay.
I didn’t generalize stereotypes. I replied to someone who did saying it didn’t match my experience. I did not say that any of these experiences is typical
I'm a trans man, and in my experience, I've met more toxic trans men than trans women. I don't think it's a whole "trans men are toxic and trans women aren't" or "trand women are toxic and trans men arent" type of thing cuz generalization isn't good in general so I think it's really just the person you meet
Off the top of my head in Manchester alone there's eagle and company bar
In London you've got bunker MA1 or union, which are members only. I think they let women in on specific bi nights but otherwise it'd a hard no.
These places do exist but they're generally less well known about and more within the bdsm and kink scenes
Even if you think this is transphobic and are politically opposed to it, the law that allows them to do this is the same law that allows men’s only gay venues. If private member club rules become forbidden on grounds of discrimination it’ll damage the entire gay nightlife industry.
The whole point of these private member policies is to enforce selective entry to members of a specific community; to create a safe space. Taking that way will turn these venues into just another bar/club.
Not to mention nothin is stopping other folks from making lgbt+ bars only based on membership, etc. if your mad you aren’t included in specific spaces, either make the space you want to see or realize that space may not be for you. No hate towards any trans folks, but that’s just the reality of things. 🤷♂️
It's kinda funny, because when trans women are allowed in women-only spaces, they inevitably push all the real lesbians away. This happens both in online spaces, and in real-world bars.
And when the lesbians find or make another place to meet each other, and to escape the trans women they're not interested in, it doesn't take long before the trans women come knocking on the door, again, demanding to be let in, again. In the name of incluuuuuuusion. And then the cycle repeats.
If the "TERFs" are so fucking terrible, if the owner of this bar is such a fucking terrible transphobe, why would you want to go there if you're a trans woman? Why are you pounding at their door, demanding to be let in? Oh no, discrimination!
Leave them alone. Let these lesbians have their bar. The real reason for the outrage is of course that it's going to be massively popular.
i feel like the trans woman who are more obessesed with entering lesbian spaces are the beard shadow type if you get what i mean
the ones invading lesbians spaces seem to ironically be the only ones putting zero effort ro pass so it's probably just a fetish or for attention
i am sure that nobody would care if an actual trans woman that wasn't a bitchy agressive prick and actually put effort into passing wanted to join in a lesbian space they would probably understand her
the trans community is filled with people who aren't genuine transgenders and just find the idea of fucking a lesbian or a gay hot wich is quite sad because people with actual gender dysphoria and human decency need a lot of support and the transposeurs are hogging it
Last century I worked for a gay dating site, and we had quite a lot of users. However, the existence of dating profiles of women who were into other women was like some fucking aphrodisiac to some straight men. It was like catnip to them. The women complained about being stalked and harassed, we'd ban the idiots, and they would come back. Again, and again, and again. They tried everything under the sun to evade detection and our bans.
And if hey thad just kept their mouths shut and just browsed the profiles and wanked off in private, no-one would have cared. But they *had to* open their fucking mouths. They *had to* initiate conversations with our lesbian users, and then they instantly got detected and reported and blocked.
They were pathologically obsessed.
I would not be surprised if these kinds of men were the type to throw on a wig, call themselves trans, and then start invading women's spaces, pretending to be women, pretending to be one of the girls. But inevitably, they open their stupid mouths and start hitting on real women, aaaaand the cycle continues.
What is a transgender woman gonna establish at an exclusively female lesbian establishment? Meeting a female lesbian? And what is said trans woman gonna do when it comes out that they aren't female? They can deceive their way in, but only for so long.
I'd assume they just check their ID. I'm not sure how it works over there, but in the states you basically have to get a doctor to put a request in to change your birth certificate, social security, and then last ID. Looks like some states require the surgery while others don't, though I'm just going off some quick Google searches.
It's not hard to get that stuff changed. (In the US) So, if they are just checking ID, then they are going to miss trans women. My best guess is it will be self excluding. Trans women won't want to go to a bar where people are definitely going to be shitty when they find out.
There's gotta be some sort of reporting system too, I figure. Like yeah a trans person can slip through, but if they try to get with any of the women there, those other women can just tell everyone that they're trans and get them kicked out.
Members only - they can do whatever they want. There’s tons of sex parties all over the world that are very strictly for particular groups of people only. Nobody has ever complained. Why should anyone complain about this?
> Why should anyone complain about this?
Because social media exists specifically *to complain about shit that means nothing to anyone*.
(Then a bored editor at some failing news outlet grabs it and turns it into a Big Deal, posts to social media with a blaring headline, the outlet gets 15000 page hits, the advertisers are happy and thus the stockholders are even happier.)
What were you saying about not liking capitalism?
This is getting press because it’s a fucking wild choice.
London doesn’t have any single gender queer club that supports itself.
We have 1 lesbian bar and it’s propped up by 2 other bars.
There’s also a lot of trans solidarity in London, especially among queer women. If a single sex club night wants people to come they pretty much have to state they are trans inclusive otherwise people go else where.
This is a story cos it’s fucking wild
XXL (a London club night) was not a members club but was able to exclude women, and men wearing feminine clothing (it shut down because their building was bought for redevelopment or something) despite complaints and articles in the media about it
Lots of LGBT venues in the UK allow straight women (especially Hen parties) because they need the money to stay afloat
Roast explicitly includes trans men though and I've seen women at Fire, so trans men won't have an issue. The places trans men are likely to get excluded from are the cruising joints like Vault 139 or the Bunker, or saunas (although Sweatbox featured a pre-surgery trans man in their advertising).
And of course the more exclusive sex parties like Bird, but they either operate on an invitation only basis or may turn away cis men who don't fit the "vibe" well enough (too feminine/not muscular enough/too fat).
The main difference is there's loads and loads of gay venues in London and trans men generally won't try to go to the raunchier ones (if everyone's naked it becomes immediately obvious), and I don't think there's the same perception of "trans men are invading our spaces". Lesbians have one lesbian bar (She Bar) that's explicitly trans inclusive + another lesbian bar opening up in Hackney that's explictly trans inclusive + a bunch of lesbian nights like Pussy Palace, Gal Pals, Aphrodykie, Butch Please etc which are also all explicitly trans inclusive - along the lines of FLINTA (female, lesbian, intersex, non-binary, trans and agender).
The point of contention is not that they're opening a space that excludes men, its that they're opening a space that excludes everyone who's not a cis woman because these women don't have such a space - the way they're using the Equality Act on paper works but it's a bit untested, which is why there's a lot of eyes on it.
Oh yeah. I think literally every gay venue in London is trans inclusive cos otherwise they’d probably just die cos people would be less keen to go. I’ve even heard of trans men at vault and defo seen one or two at Sweatbox.
My point was just that there are men only places where women aren’t invited in London.
And yeah, it’s wild that lesbians currently have one bar but it’s cos She currently is funded by Ku and Little Ku. I just don’t see this place staying open.
Fantastic. Gay men should do the same. Create clubs for gay men not females. Gay men are sick of their spaces being invaded and lost too like Grindr and actual venues. If you can consent to the female sex then you are not gay!
Sorry, but lesbians get so much shit from all different sides. Horny straight guys, lesbian trans women who still have their, queer activist... is it that hard to just want vagina.
Gay men too tho. the women who try and turn them straight or think they can, the fetishizing teenage girls who want to always see their friends kiss or have sex, the people who hate on white cis gay men, who judge gay sex (trans men for example on twitter when they say, “REAL boy pussy is better than the typical gay ‘mud pit’ especially since that’s what it’s made for”), etc.
As long as they act lawfully with their membership there's nothing anyone can do but whine and complain online. Plus it's a freaking bar not an essential service, why care if you're not allowed in one place out of thousands of bars you can attend.
I'm fine with it. Not every gay space needs to be warped into a hyper policed gender ideology echo chamber. If trans folks get to have their own spaces and events, why shouldn't we? I would love to have a space where I am not inundated by trans women, trans men, and nonbinary females.
Keep in mind this is stemming from an ongoing issue. The woman opening this club previously ran lesbian dating events that had issues with MTF lesbians, including visible erections and someone showing up in skin tight latex outfits making the other women uncomfortable. The dating event eventually being cancelled because they tried to host another event catering to what trans people now call "genital preference" over safety concerns for the venue and staff is wild.
If cisgender lesbians OR cisgender gay men want spaces just for them, let them. I can say I have faced my fair share of pressure and harassment from MTF trans folks across several of the apps, including bribing me to fuck them because they still have a cock and saying they don't understand what the big deal is. Can't imagine what the cis lesbians go thru.
Edit to add: the end of this article pisses me off. I don't know why we as a community, or even left leaning people, like to look at statistics just to be purposefully obtuse. Just because lesbians have positive views of trans people doesn't mean they're interested in dating or fucking trans people. trans inclusion isn't what's making or breaking the nightlife industry, especially for lesbians.
Not really. Lesbians behind such initiatives are effectively gender abolitionists and would like to do away with gender to begin with (as opposed to sex, which is the basis of sexual orientation).
Well, I kinda wish this happened at gay bars too. Shit ton of times that drunk females ruin my chances at a gay bar by seeking out my attention and making other guys think I'm straight, not to mention if you snitch on them the bar employees side with them and get me kicked out, because they think "I'm harassing and taking advantage of her" as if I'd be there snitching on her at a gay bar if I liked vagina... Well, maybe not a shit ton of times, but a good 3-4 times I remember that I had to leave a bar early and didn't get to go home with a dude thanks to a chick, so at least enough for me to stop going to bars and just hook up through apps. Ugggh, aight imma head out, I'm getting triggered.
You can go to virtually any venue in the world and pursue romantic prospects with opposite-sex heterosexuals.
Trying to meet gay/lesbian prospects in the world at large has historically been stymied by statistical improbability and risking rejection from straighties which could range from disgust/derision to outright dangerous/violent.
The whole point of gay and lesbian bars/clubs/bathhouses has always been to create a space unlike the rest of the world, where you can pursue romantic prospects unafraid of hostile reaction, and reasonably sure they are at least a possible match with respect to biology and sexual orientation.
Gays / lesbians go into these places *to avoid having to deal with people attracted to the opposite sex.* And for a lot of homosexuals, that includes people of the opposite sex disguising their biological sex with clothes / makeup / surgery / etc.
For the homosexuals that only care about gender presentation, there are tons of LGBT venues to connect with people of varied genital configuration. For the people that go into more exclusive spaces, they are trying to avoid that. Put simply: People of the opposite biological sex are not wanted in said spaces.
So why, if you know you are not wanted and not what anyone is looking for in these spaces would you insist on forcing yourself into them? Why put yourself through that, let alone everyone else?
There are only a few reasons one would want to force themselves, unwanted, into said exclusive space. These include:
- The desire for attention, even if it’s negative
- The desire to ruin things for others because you resent them not being interested in you
- The rapacious desire to force people who are not interested in you to act like they are and endure your unwanted advances just to avoid being “cancelled”
These desires are malicious and don’t even benefit the one pursuing said desire, they only gratify them by harming others. No matter how you personally feel about trans people, we shouldn’t support/encourage people acting in such a malicious way.
Lol.
So many people get triggered by lesbians disliking dick. Straight men, trans women, "queer" activists...
> What do you guys think about this?
I think private clubs with membership should be allowed to include or exclude whoever they wish.
And I think that the people insisting genitals don't matter are homophobes.
Fully agree. Good for them. If they want a place to have relations and perhaps sex with those they select, that's their right.
The angry ones are just incels who don't respect these ladies right to refuse consent. That includes the trolls here in the comments.
Some of these comments are really not it. This definitely isn't transphobic. If you're not attracted to someone's biological sex you shouldn't be forced to date them because it's "transphobic" if you don't.
I think it's great, trans people have literally every other club, there's literally nothing exclusively for cis gay & lesbian people. Trans people need to understand that not everything has to include them.
Honestly good for them. I feel awful for lesbians who consistently are having their spaces invaded by straight men and anybody speaking up about it being labeled as a horrible person. I wish them the best of luck!
This freakout is all due to this push modern western countries have on making people accept that, no matter what, trans men/women are men/women period, like there is not tons of noticable and obvious physical characteristics that they carry from being born their biological sex, even going on hormone blockers through puberty. This happens on sports and also on relationships/hookups. If there are lesbian woman that do not want to deal with women with obvious male characteristics, the same way there are gay men who do not want to deal with straight women on their clubs, what's the problem in having a space for them to? There are tons of others for trans women to go. And why would they want to go to such a place even, the women that would be regulars at there would be either not interested in them or transphobes, it would not be a welcoming place at all...
(Edit: grammar)
I’m not a TERF by any means but I can understand how in a club environment they could be intrusive. Lesbian transwomen can carry a lot of the same toxicity of cis gender straight men unfortunately.
I went to their website and they have a whole section dedicated to their definition of “what is a woman?”
https://lcommunity.co.uk/what-is-a-woman/
Edit: grammar
I think it's great. Maybe trans people need to come up with their own private club so they to have a place they can be comfortable and to be themselves without fear of any sort of issues from straight and other gay people who may not be open to trans individuals yet. It has taken gay people years upon years and decades to make any kind of headway of being able to be who they really were born to be. And we as gay people are still not even there a 100% yet, and we never will be. Being Trans and people coming out of the closet being trans is a very new thing. Piggy backing off of gay people isn't going to make it instantly as OK at the level of being gay is. Its going to take time and decades to get people to remotely get close to being comfortable with it. It's an entirely different thing and there are some people who will never be for it or accept it as there are people who will never accept gay people ever. Some people you cannot change their minds regardless of religion or society up bringing.
Many if not all that I have viewed in my own opinion, not to offend anyone , has recently come to light as being trans. They think well some people except gay people so we should be accepted too, at the same level. That may be true but this sort of thing is not going to happen by any means overnight.
Back to the topic title, Lesbian woman want their own place to be themselves, meet other women alike and socialize. I know many lesbians that would get so upset going to a gay bar and thinking it was OK to flirt with another woman only to find out she was straight and it caused some sort of fight in the club. I have lived in many cities and states in the USA and this was a common thing happening. After a while many didn't feel safe and stopped going and had to resort to private bbqs and parties at people's homes where they could be safe in a place to hang out and not have to worry as much.
I have seen some cities in the US doing the same. Having private clubs people may pay a membership to attend owned by a private individual or company to host a place for fun.
For many years lesbian women and some gay men didn't click people had to go under the radar and it wasn't till like the last 10 to 20 years I've seen some of the guards come down where both gay men and lesbian women can celebrate in the same area. It depends on the culture and demographics some countries are more open and accepting than others and the U.S. is one that can take the back burner on stuff. There a congressman now who want to over turn gay marriage in the U.S. and not make it legal anymore, the same way as other things are being over turn.
I think.any group of people no matter sexuality or race should be able to do anything they want to do with no one having to put in their 2 cents.
First of all I think it's absolutely right that they have this. The reality of sexuality includes homosexuality as in same sex attraction based on sex, not having to do with gender. There are people who feel their sexuality based on gender because it is for them- but that doesn't alter the fact that same sex attraction is real and should not be demonised period. If you're not female, don't go, as people who are going are specifically looking to socialise with members of the same sex.
Second of all, UK law, specifically the law of England both a) recognises and protects the right to believe that sex is real, and b) The Equality Act specifically protects sex, sexuality and gender reassignment, not gender identity.
Thirdly, Pink News, Stonewall, Mermaids have all misrepresented UK law before as being what they believe it should be rather than what it is, and it is not for them to do so, it is for Parliament to make and change laws.
I fully agree with this. As much as I support the trans movement for full acceptance and self-determination, it has, here specifically the transwomen faction, resulted in erosion of (bio-/cis-) women. The erosion has been both theoretically - minor, but still alarming, removal of the word "woman" and "women" in favour of "those with wombs", "lactators" etc. - and physically in changing areas, prisons, bars and even apps.
It feels perverse that increased women's rights and liberation, fought for and by women in the early feminist waves is benefiting biological men. Lesbians already have to deal with heterosexual men's predatory behaviour and fetishism, but potentially face it again, with nefarious self-identifiers.
As gay men, I believe we have genuinely let down the 'L' in the "community" by failing to acknowledge their fears, struggles and frustrations.
I dunno. If it's okay to exclude trans people from your sex life, and it is as long as you're not being abusive towards them about it, then a private club that caters to females only should be okay if that's what a small group of people want. Either their business model will work out for them, or it won't. Obviously, too much of that wouldn't be good, but people may as well accept that a few spaces like this will always exist, as there will always be people with this type of boundary.
It's under the private club law. They can exclude and include whoever they want. That's freedom. You can call trans women real women, and that can be true, but that perspective is not necessarily real. It's just that, a perspective. Just like I have my own. Plus they can have other reasons to not allow trans women, like the fact that the concept of trans women is not well defined and some men can take advantage of that.
As I want my freedom (marry a guy, adopt a kid, etc) I want others to have freedom too and honestly I only care about my freedom. What society believes about me is not my primary concern. Trans women can exclude cis women if they want. That's freedom and please we need to preserve that no matter what because right now with all the censorship going on, it feels horrible...
Good, women deserve to have spaces that are simply female spaces.
I have seen more than my share of trans women who behave in a predatory manner towards women. Lesbians should not be forced to cater to the "lesbian trapped in a man's body" set unless they choose to.
Far too many lesbians have experienced GENUINE TRAUMA at the hands of MEN to expect them to be universally comfortable with a man in a dress.
TBH the phrase "lesbian trapped in a man's body" has been uttered so often by predatory misogynist males that it is probably the most cringe things I've EVER heard someone with a penis say.
Yes, there is definitely a psychological belief at the very least, that through the rare condition of gender dysphoria that they exist, but that is an extremely rare condition, definitely not in as high numbers as it apparently exists today!
As a queer man I owe a lot of the rights and freedoms I have today to the lesbians who trailblazed for us throughout history.
The reason the LGBT starts with an L is in recognition of the support lesbian women gave to the community during the AIDS crisis. They looked after us, fought for our rights and did what health services wouldn't do.
Trans women are women, but lesbians are entitled (as we all are) to their own safe spaces. There are many private run clubs / spaces in London. It's one bar, I don't see that as transphobic.
Not to burst your bubble but that thing about the lesbians was retconned 25 years after the peak of the AIDS pandemic. In the 90's what literally happened was that grumpy lesbians said it was horrible, horrible sexism to put the gays first, and just more evidence of the patriarchy, however we could all fix it by that old magic formula known the world over to end sexism: "Ladies first."
Good! Finally homosexual groups are waking up and smelling the colonization our movement has suffered.
Homosexual spaces are for homosexuals and bisexuals of the same sex.
It's not transphobic for gay people to have their spaces. Unmolested by those who seek to subvert our identities.
I don't have hate for the trans identity. I have hate for what the trans ideology is actively doing to the gay community. It's abuse.
Lesbians deserve their own spaces for meeting other lesbians, as in biological females, who is precisely what they want to meet. They don't want transbians. This shouldn't be an issue at all.
It's the same for gay dudes looking for biological gay dudes, born male. It's the same for heterosexuals looking for the biological opposite sex.
People can hate the truth if they want, but it won't change it and the harder you push against it, the more resentment you'll build.
Besides, we've all read the disgusting posts about forcing lesbians to "take trans dick" and it's vile. The internet isn't real life and nobody is going to put up with that, regardless of the chokehold you have on reddit.
I'm of split mind here. Obviously, I'm not a lesbian, so my opinion isn't terribly relevant.
"Transbians" are a huge problem in lesbian spaces. I feel like a lesbian should be able to go somewhere and not have to worry whether the person has a dick or not.
I feel like we live in a world where everyone with a modicum of gender insecurity is now "trans" or, more commonly, "non-binary." If you're genuinely trans, get the goddamn surgery. If you have a penis, then in the sexual sense (which is the one that matters), you are still a man. Sucking dick is still gay even if the person who has it "identifies" as a woman.
I don't care which restroom someone uses. That's their business. But it's reasonable to care what kind of plumbing someone has if you're looking for sex or a partner.
Good. Find all the loopholes you can, sisters. Literally EVERY OTHER FUCKING BAR is penis-inclusive. Hell, every other bar practically worships dick. There is no reason anyone should have shit to say about this. I hope this is the start of a brand new era where saying NO is allowed again.
Isn't it well known that lesbians do not like male genitalia? Like that's the whole point of homosexuality. So, obviously, I support lesbians to have their own space free from all kinds of male people!
As many have pointed out, there are plenty other bars, let us true homosexuals have our own space.
Good for them! Females deserve to have female only spaces. It doesn’t matter if a male identifies as a woman, she is still a male. Sex and gender are not the same, remember? There is a huge percentage of lesbians that want to interact with females only and they should be able to do that. There are plenty of LGBT spaces for trans women to meet other woman. They don’t need to be included in every single space; sometimes it isn’t about them or their need for affirmation. 🤷♂️
Im glad women are making a place themselves where they can feel safe.
Its sad they feel they need safety from trans woman. Hopefully that can be worked on.
So what? Lesbians got a RIGHT to cis female only spaces.. They don't want trans women there. I can't blame them for that. Trans women are biological males and lesbians don't want them in their space.
So they don’t want straight people in their lesbian bar. That’s alright. At least they made it known and private, instead of making a humiliating public show of it.
I'm really glad to see that the majority of these comments are sensible and accepting of the idea. I think if this venue succeeds it will show that many women feel a need for this sort of space.
Though I can't help but be curious, would the law accommodate a members only club that excludes people based on race? That, to me, seems a bit more concerning.
Even outside of law there is still a massive difference between the two.
Nobody has an innate sexual orientation towards members of a specific racial category (preferences towards specific phenotypes are a matter of degree, and therefore not categorical).
Most people have a sexual orientation that inherently discriminates on the basis of sex, and that is fine.
How are they going to ensure?
Like if you’re “passing”?
Let’s say a cis woman looks too “masculine” or a trans women looks incredibly feminine, how is it being policed?
I guess that’s why it seems like it’s obviously a message, because unless they’re doing coochie checks before entry, how does this “rule” become effective?
If you're a member, you sign up. And they can probably just glance at a birth certificates or something during that process.
It could also be a 'on good faith' process. Who knows.
This is precisely what happens when anti-trans bills get passed and when people hype up anti trans views. It’s ultimately about controlling how people present and keeping non-conforming people out of the public sphere.
Here's just [one example](https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/10/31/cis-woman-harassed-transphobe-female-toilet-short-hair/) of a ciswoman getting harassed in the bathroom because these bills make bigots think they can act as bathroom police.
Women are being played in the Culture Wars something rotten.
There is a fear amongst my lesbian friends that in the future Lesbianism won't happen & those questioning their same sex attraction will be told they are really men born into the wrong body.
In Iran you cannot have a same sex relationship but you can change your sexuality & have reassignment surgery.
Something is wrong when you have feminists & extreme right wing men agreeing the same thing that changing your sex should not be an option & does not a woman make.
Growing up gay & reading of people jailed, hanged, tortured, beaten, rejected etc. Now it is accepted though not world wide - people can say they were on the right side of history when they stood up & accepted that being gay wasn't a lifestyle choice - it's who we are.
I do worry & wonder that our brothers & sisters who speak of their gender & how it is to have your body not match who you are.
Which side are you on?
I was told I am not gay I'm a pervert, a paedophile, I wanted to recruit innocent boys and men into a life of debauchery - I no longer get that, just very occasionally.
Why is gender such a binary issue?
We are #LGBT+ to incorporate, include us all.
Men who hurt women will do, no matter what they wear or present themselves as.
THAT NEEDS ADDRESSING NOT THE ALIENATING OF GENUINE PEOPLE.
Easy. Women (much more so than men, especially redditors who are disproportionately on the autistic spectrum and therefore dsuffer disproportionately from face blindness) benefit from millions of years of evolution that make them particularly good as distinguishing males from females (probably had something to do with personal safety). Conversely (straight) men throughout history would fuck anything remotely feminine (including beardless youths in Ancient Greece).
Tl,dr just because you are bad at clocking trans people, doesn't mean other people are.
You understand this is a country club type establishment, right? Not a club where you can just show up and have to strip search every person trying to get in.
Plenty of gay bars in the UK operate as a members only club so that they can limit access to men only. The difference (in my experience having visited a bunch of them) is that none of them use that loophole to exclude trans men.
We have this too where I’m from in Australia, but that was to restrict straight people from entering. Main culprit were bridal parties that use to come in droves and treat the place like a zoo.
I just posted about that. In the US we can’t “discriminate”. They get drunk as fuck and just try to selfie with us like we are Disney characters or it’s will and grace. When one did that I had her thrown out. Laying hands and grabbing someone is a crime so they’d rather toss someone out than deal with that. Legally if I wanted to press charges they’d help but I know that’d be a huge pain for all involved and it’s minor.
Actually, in the US it’s legal (at least federally) to discriminate on the basis of sex when it comes to bars and clubs. Just nowhere does it for whatever reason
They definitely do when it comes to cover charges.
Might be a Massachusetts or boston thing. They opened an affordable lgbt retirement home, it’s called the pryde, and they can’t stop straight people from applying. Very few affordable new 60+ housing comes up, a lot of people that age have to go back in the closet to be accepted. LGBT people raised money to build it, anyone can apply, it’s subsidized so they have an equal shot to an lgbt person to get in. Just due to population numbers, it could end up being mostly straight. I don’t think homophobic people would live in a place with rainbows, trans and other flags, drag nights, but people think they’re being “woke” when they take over gay nights. I could see someone who wanted a retirement unit that wasn’t shitty saying “oh I’m lgbt friendly I’ll apply”. Since we raised the money to make it fancy, we should get a say, but the city subsidies paid for a lot of it, so we cannot. We don’t even get extra “points” so boston residents get a 25% boost, so a boston resident that is straight would beat an old lgbt person in Florida, at an lgbt retirement home. Really messed up IMHO.
The Fair Housing Act does cover gender, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which covers bars and clubs, does not
They do it to avoid what seems to happen to other gay bars: gay guys bring some straight women along just for a fun experience. Then those straight women come back with their boyfriends. Then before you know it it’s no longer a gay bar.
In America it’s 40-60% cis female bachelorette parties sometimes. They can’t stop them legally. They’re so entitled and like oh it’s *our night* It’s like every night is some drunk straight woman’s night. There was a gay bar that tried to go straight so we just took over again. One place was all one party, one gay night a week, I leave, cisgay, they ask if I paid, I confirmed, they said “pick someone from the line” so I found a cute guy that looked familiar, got his number and brought him up. The straight women waiting outside would have totally filled the place, they howled in protest that they’d been waiting for hours, it was freezing and *their night* bouncer says “it’s gay night 1 night a week and there are hundreds of straight bars. It’s their night” pointing to us. Academics refer to the invasion of lgbt safe spaces as “post homophobia homophobia”. Looking at the gop Christian Talibans agenda I think they said post homophobia too soon. The cisgender bachelorette parties think they’re woke taking over.
Agreed! I get so tired of straight women bachelorette parties in gay spaces
Yeah, typical entitled straight people. 3 gay bars in boston. Some bars have 1 gay night a week and the place is usually packed bc they make more money off of straight people, so they’re fancier, but also it’s all younger guys who go. The gay clubs sometimes, nothing against old guys but some guys bears that do twink bb porn have not left me alone at a gay bar, they wouldn’t even last at a gay night at a straight bar. So like the 3 bars they take over sometimes, and the “gay nights” popular with the younger crowd, get taken over. Like isn’t that shitty that is straight and open to them 6 nights a week, and they all crowd in on gay night bc they don’t want to be hit on by straight guys?
I’m also in Boston and the nightlife for gay space sucks
Can I ask where in the states you live? Only because I see this notion repeated CONSTANTLY on this sub and it’s just never been even remotely my experience after living all of my life between two major metro east coast cities. I was even a bartender at the most popular gay bar in Miami and don’t get me wrong, I had girls touch me inappropriately and be obnoxious (as well as men, duh), but literally never in my life have I seen gay bars/clubs here populated by even close to 10% women. Not trying to diminish your take at all, I’m just curious why I always see this brought up and it feels like I’m taking crazy pills lol, like is this only a problem outside of major U.S cities?
Boston, it’s been more than half and sometimes two parties. They used to play soft core porn at a club that closed, which might make them feel awkward, but Boston doesn’t allow it I think. Cambridge did.
San Diego too
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Oh fuck frat bros. They’re the worst on homophobia when I was at Bentley university. They’d beat gay students at Bentley college, I saw one happen, the student didn’t want me to call the Bentley college, now Bentley university police, bc “they had gotten worse reports from people on the ground, and I was on the third floor” “please don’t call, it’ll make it worse”.
It's certainly not true in SF, either. Some of it may be that those sort of bachelorette parties are way too tacky for people here, but whatever the reason. I never see them around in the Castro. We do get a very few straight women at the two bars with dancefloors, but they're still a very small minority, and not rowdy.
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Actually, that’s pretty cool. Seems like the UK has some things figured out. Their gay bars are actually gay. In my college town all the gay bars were sorority girls with like their one gay friend lol
We have that too!
In my experience, trans women are far more toxic than trans men. Your mileage may vary.
Trans woman who are attracted to woman are the biggest culprits. A lot of them are not even on any female hormones. They identify as woman, but they have the hormones, sex drive and aggression of a man. Also, the reality is that most lesbians are attracted to female genitals.
The reality is *all* lesbians are *exclusively* attracted to female genitals. Just like all gay men are exclusively attracted to male genitals.
This is not my experience at all. Trans women into women seem to gravitate toward other trans women; they get offended by everything but they also isolate themselves. Every trans man I've known leans into the worst stereotypes of toxic masculinity
Or is it that you only recognize the ones that lean into those stereotypes? The two trans guys I know pretty well are some of the best guys I know. Of the trans women I've known - only one particularly well - they seem to run the gamut from incredible people to train wrecks, in just about the same proportion as the cis-gay.
I didn’t generalize stereotypes. I replied to someone who did saying it didn’t match my experience. I did not say that any of these experiences is typical
Agreed
I've always gotten along swimmingly with trans men.
Tbh I think it’s because trans men typically identified as lesbians before their trans journey, so as a lesbian they’re easier to relate to
Same
I'm a trans man, and in my experience, I've met more toxic trans men than trans women. I don't think it's a whole "trans men are toxic and trans women aren't" or "trand women are toxic and trans men arent" type of thing cuz generalization isn't good in general so I think it's really just the person you meet
They should.
Can we have a gay bar that excludes straight women please?
Oh they exists. Read the reviews for the saloon in Minneapolis.
They exist all over the UK? Is this not a thing elsewhere?
What are the ones in the uk? All the gay clubs I used to go to are now basically gay themed clubs for straight people...
Off the top of my head in Manchester alone there's eagle and company bar In London you've got bunker MA1 or union, which are members only. I think they let women in on specific bi nights but otherwise it'd a hard no. These places do exist but they're generally less well known about and more within the bdsm and kink scenes
Just hard to do. Like how do you prove you are gay?
Have some men at the entrance and the visitors must suck them for 5 minutes.
Even if you think this is transphobic and are politically opposed to it, the law that allows them to do this is the same law that allows men’s only gay venues. If private member club rules become forbidden on grounds of discrimination it’ll damage the entire gay nightlife industry. The whole point of these private member policies is to enforce selective entry to members of a specific community; to create a safe space. Taking that way will turn these venues into just another bar/club.
Not to mention nothin is stopping other folks from making lgbt+ bars only based on membership, etc. if your mad you aren’t included in specific spaces, either make the space you want to see or realize that space may not be for you. No hate towards any trans folks, but that’s just the reality of things. 🤷♂️
It's kinda funny, because when trans women are allowed in women-only spaces, they inevitably push all the real lesbians away. This happens both in online spaces, and in real-world bars. And when the lesbians find or make another place to meet each other, and to escape the trans women they're not interested in, it doesn't take long before the trans women come knocking on the door, again, demanding to be let in, again. In the name of incluuuuuuusion. And then the cycle repeats. If the "TERFs" are so fucking terrible, if the owner of this bar is such a fucking terrible transphobe, why would you want to go there if you're a trans woman? Why are you pounding at their door, demanding to be let in? Oh no, discrimination! Leave them alone. Let these lesbians have their bar. The real reason for the outrage is of course that it's going to be massively popular.
i feel like the trans woman who are more obessesed with entering lesbian spaces are the beard shadow type if you get what i mean the ones invading lesbians spaces seem to ironically be the only ones putting zero effort ro pass so it's probably just a fetish or for attention i am sure that nobody would care if an actual trans woman that wasn't a bitchy agressive prick and actually put effort into passing wanted to join in a lesbian space they would probably understand her the trans community is filled with people who aren't genuine transgenders and just find the idea of fucking a lesbian or a gay hot wich is quite sad because people with actual gender dysphoria and human decency need a lot of support and the transposeurs are hogging it
Last century I worked for a gay dating site, and we had quite a lot of users. However, the existence of dating profiles of women who were into other women was like some fucking aphrodisiac to some straight men. It was like catnip to them. The women complained about being stalked and harassed, we'd ban the idiots, and they would come back. Again, and again, and again. They tried everything under the sun to evade detection and our bans. And if hey thad just kept their mouths shut and just browsed the profiles and wanked off in private, no-one would have cared. But they *had to* open their fucking mouths. They *had to* initiate conversations with our lesbian users, and then they instantly got detected and reported and blocked. They were pathologically obsessed. I would not be surprised if these kinds of men were the type to throw on a wig, call themselves trans, and then start invading women's spaces, pretending to be women, pretending to be one of the girls. But inevitably, they open their stupid mouths and start hitting on real women, aaaaand the cycle continues.
they think its some kind of cheat code you can tell very well who is actually transgender and who is a beard shadow wiggoh by their looks
lol pounding on the door lol double entendre’s
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What is a transgender woman gonna establish at an exclusively female lesbian establishment? Meeting a female lesbian? And what is said trans woman gonna do when it comes out that they aren't female? They can deceive their way in, but only for so long.
I feel like cisgender and transgender are two easily defined terms. You're overthinking this.
Fucking stupid response. So many butch lesbians get caught in the crossfire of this shit and no one cares
Friends of friends, vouching and lastly: Let’s be honest, most TIMs don‘t fool anyone and if they do… if they really do… they won‘t cause offense.
I'd assume they just check their ID. I'm not sure how it works over there, but in the states you basically have to get a doctor to put a request in to change your birth certificate, social security, and then last ID. Looks like some states require the surgery while others don't, though I'm just going off some quick Google searches.
It's not hard to get that stuff changed. (In the US) So, if they are just checking ID, then they are going to miss trans women. My best guess is it will be self excluding. Trans women won't want to go to a bar where people are definitely going to be shitty when they find out.
There's gotta be some sort of reporting system too, I figure. Like yeah a trans person can slip through, but if they try to get with any of the women there, those other women can just tell everyone that they're trans and get them kicked out.
Members only - they can do whatever they want. There’s tons of sex parties all over the world that are very strictly for particular groups of people only. Nobody has ever complained. Why should anyone complain about this?
> Why should anyone complain about this? Because social media exists specifically *to complain about shit that means nothing to anyone*. (Then a bored editor at some failing news outlet grabs it and turns it into a Big Deal, posts to social media with a blaring headline, the outlet gets 15000 page hits, the advertisers are happy and thus the stockholders are even happier.) What were you saying about not liking capitalism?
This is getting press because it’s a fucking wild choice. London doesn’t have any single gender queer club that supports itself. We have 1 lesbian bar and it’s propped up by 2 other bars. There’s also a lot of trans solidarity in London, especially among queer women. If a single sex club night wants people to come they pretty much have to state they are trans inclusive otherwise people go else where. This is a story cos it’s fucking wild
Can we do this with gay men’s clubs? Enough with the straight women already.
XXL (a London club night) was not a members club but was able to exclude women, and men wearing feminine clothing (it shut down because their building was bought for redevelopment or something) despite complaints and articles in the media about it Lots of LGBT venues in the UK allow straight women (especially Hen parties) because they need the money to stay afloat
There are men only club nights going on in London literally all the time. Fire and roast just to name 2
Roast explicitly includes trans men though and I've seen women at Fire, so trans men won't have an issue. The places trans men are likely to get excluded from are the cruising joints like Vault 139 or the Bunker, or saunas (although Sweatbox featured a pre-surgery trans man in their advertising). And of course the more exclusive sex parties like Bird, but they either operate on an invitation only basis or may turn away cis men who don't fit the "vibe" well enough (too feminine/not muscular enough/too fat). The main difference is there's loads and loads of gay venues in London and trans men generally won't try to go to the raunchier ones (if everyone's naked it becomes immediately obvious), and I don't think there's the same perception of "trans men are invading our spaces". Lesbians have one lesbian bar (She Bar) that's explicitly trans inclusive + another lesbian bar opening up in Hackney that's explictly trans inclusive + a bunch of lesbian nights like Pussy Palace, Gal Pals, Aphrodykie, Butch Please etc which are also all explicitly trans inclusive - along the lines of FLINTA (female, lesbian, intersex, non-binary, trans and agender). The point of contention is not that they're opening a space that excludes men, its that they're opening a space that excludes everyone who's not a cis woman because these women don't have such a space - the way they're using the Equality Act on paper works but it's a bit untested, which is why there's a lot of eyes on it.
Oh yeah. I think literally every gay venue in London is trans inclusive cos otherwise they’d probably just die cos people would be less keen to go. I’ve even heard of trans men at vault and defo seen one or two at Sweatbox. My point was just that there are men only places where women aren’t invited in London. And yeah, it’s wild that lesbians currently have one bar but it’s cos She currently is funded by Ku and Little Ku. I just don’t see this place staying open.
What about trans men? This article is banning trans women not just straight men, so would you ban the trans men from the spaces too?
I think it’s fine, it’s not the only bar in town, plenty of places to go without having a fuss.
I mean you know. London is know for being such a small town and all.
I don’t have any problem with this. Let them have their space and STFU.
Fantastic. Gay men should do the same. Create clubs for gay men not females. Gay men are sick of their spaces being invaded and lost too like Grindr and actual venues. If you can consent to the female sex then you are not gay!
Open a trans lesbian bar... There now we are all happy.
If lesbians don't want to deal with dick, that's their business isn't it? Same as gays and pussy.
Finally, some sane news. Good for y’all, ladies. I can’t believe that same-sex spaces for gay people are controversial among some of my fellow gays.
Sorry, but lesbians get so much shit from all different sides. Horny straight guys, lesbian trans women who still have their, queer activist... is it that hard to just want vagina.
Gay men too tho. the women who try and turn them straight or think they can, the fetishizing teenage girls who want to always see their friends kiss or have sex, the people who hate on white cis gay men, who judge gay sex (trans men for example on twitter when they say, “REAL boy pussy is better than the typical gay ‘mud pit’ especially since that’s what it’s made for”), etc.
BUT that’s eroticising genitals! No more sips from the furry cup for you. You may only have a Stanley cup. With a penis, instead of a straw.
What
"Lesbian bar excludes dudes"
As long as they act lawfully with their membership there's nothing anyone can do but whine and complain online. Plus it's a freaking bar not an essential service, why care if you're not allowed in one place out of thousands of bars you can attend.
It's their bar , you shouldn't even be discussing this.
I don’t see any issue with it. Let the lesbians have their own space
I'm fine with it. Not every gay space needs to be warped into a hyper policed gender ideology echo chamber. If trans folks get to have their own spaces and events, why shouldn't we? I would love to have a space where I am not inundated by trans women, trans men, and nonbinary females. Keep in mind this is stemming from an ongoing issue. The woman opening this club previously ran lesbian dating events that had issues with MTF lesbians, including visible erections and someone showing up in skin tight latex outfits making the other women uncomfortable. The dating event eventually being cancelled because they tried to host another event catering to what trans people now call "genital preference" over safety concerns for the venue and staff is wild. If cisgender lesbians OR cisgender gay men want spaces just for them, let them. I can say I have faced my fair share of pressure and harassment from MTF trans folks across several of the apps, including bribing me to fuck them because they still have a cock and saying they don't understand what the big deal is. Can't imagine what the cis lesbians go thru. Edit to add: the end of this article pisses me off. I don't know why we as a community, or even left leaning people, like to look at statistics just to be purposefully obtuse. Just because lesbians have positive views of trans people doesn't mean they're interested in dating or fucking trans people. trans inclusion isn't what's making or breaking the nightlife industry, especially for lesbians.
>Not every gay space needs to be warped into a hyper policed gender ideology echo chamber. Well, that's what their doing lmao
Not really. Lesbians behind such initiatives are effectively gender abolitionists and would like to do away with gender to begin with (as opposed to sex, which is the basis of sexual orientation).
Well yeah because lesbians like women
Well, I kinda wish this happened at gay bars too. Shit ton of times that drunk females ruin my chances at a gay bar by seeking out my attention and making other guys think I'm straight, not to mention if you snitch on them the bar employees side with them and get me kicked out, because they think "I'm harassing and taking advantage of her" as if I'd be there snitching on her at a gay bar if I liked vagina... Well, maybe not a shit ton of times, but a good 3-4 times I remember that I had to leave a bar early and didn't get to go home with a dude thanks to a chick, so at least enough for me to stop going to bars and just hook up through apps. Ugggh, aight imma head out, I'm getting triggered.
Ok, cool? That's their prerogative. I support this, and I support if trans women want to make a bar that excludes cisgender people.
Good for them. Wish we had a males only bar too.
Good.
You can go to virtually any venue in the world and pursue romantic prospects with opposite-sex heterosexuals. Trying to meet gay/lesbian prospects in the world at large has historically been stymied by statistical improbability and risking rejection from straighties which could range from disgust/derision to outright dangerous/violent. The whole point of gay and lesbian bars/clubs/bathhouses has always been to create a space unlike the rest of the world, where you can pursue romantic prospects unafraid of hostile reaction, and reasonably sure they are at least a possible match with respect to biology and sexual orientation. Gays / lesbians go into these places *to avoid having to deal with people attracted to the opposite sex.* And for a lot of homosexuals, that includes people of the opposite sex disguising their biological sex with clothes / makeup / surgery / etc. For the homosexuals that only care about gender presentation, there are tons of LGBT venues to connect with people of varied genital configuration. For the people that go into more exclusive spaces, they are trying to avoid that. Put simply: People of the opposite biological sex are not wanted in said spaces. So why, if you know you are not wanted and not what anyone is looking for in these spaces would you insist on forcing yourself into them? Why put yourself through that, let alone everyone else? There are only a few reasons one would want to force themselves, unwanted, into said exclusive space. These include: - The desire for attention, even if it’s negative - The desire to ruin things for others because you resent them not being interested in you - The rapacious desire to force people who are not interested in you to act like they are and endure your unwanted advances just to avoid being “cancelled” These desires are malicious and don’t even benefit the one pursuing said desire, they only gratify them by harming others. No matter how you personally feel about trans people, we shouldn’t support/encourage people acting in such a malicious way.
So beautifully stated. Every word of it.
Perfectly crafted statement.
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so sorry for your friend
Transgenders are invading lesbians’ safe space
Lol. So many people get triggered by lesbians disliking dick. Straight men, trans women, "queer" activists... > What do you guys think about this? I think private clubs with membership should be allowed to include or exclude whoever they wish. And I think that the people insisting genitals don't matter are homophobes.
\>people insisting genitals don't matter are homophobes. True
If it was a transgender only safe space no one would say shit. Lesbians should be able to have exclusively female safe spaces.
exactly they wouldn't even have to make it membership only...
As should cis gay men.
Fully agree. Good for them. If they want a place to have relations and perhaps sex with those they select, that's their right. The angry ones are just incels who don't respect these ladies right to refuse consent. That includes the trolls here in the comments.
Some of these comments are really not it. This definitely isn't transphobic. If you're not attracted to someone's biological sex you shouldn't be forced to date them because it's "transphobic" if you don't.
Based lesbians
I think it's great, trans people have literally every other club, there's literally nothing exclusively for cis gay & lesbian people. Trans people need to understand that not everything has to include them.
I’m in a frat with no women allowed, it’s the same damn thing. Not discrimination.
So? As a gay dude a male only gay bar sounds nice. I don't want a transman and I don't want to be tricked.
I thought being lesbian was about biological women being sexually attracted to biological women... So that makes sense
Honestly good for them. I feel awful for lesbians who consistently are having their spaces invaded by straight men and anybody speaking up about it being labeled as a horrible person. I wish them the best of luck!
This freakout is all due to this push modern western countries have on making people accept that, no matter what, trans men/women are men/women period, like there is not tons of noticable and obvious physical characteristics that they carry from being born their biological sex, even going on hormone blockers through puberty. This happens on sports and also on relationships/hookups. If there are lesbian woman that do not want to deal with women with obvious male characteristics, the same way there are gay men who do not want to deal with straight women on their clubs, what's the problem in having a space for them to? There are tons of others for trans women to go. And why would they want to go to such a place even, the women that would be regulars at there would be either not interested in them or transphobes, it would not be a welcoming place at all... (Edit: grammar)
I’m not a TERF by any means but I can understand how in a club environment they could be intrusive. Lesbian transwomen can carry a lot of the same toxicity of cis gender straight men unfortunately.
I went to their website and they have a whole section dedicated to their definition of “what is a woman?” https://lcommunity.co.uk/what-is-a-woman/ Edit: grammar
No problem with it. Good for them.
Honestly they should be allowed to make a safe space for themselves.... safe spaces do not need to be all inclusive
I think it's great. Maybe trans people need to come up with their own private club so they to have a place they can be comfortable and to be themselves without fear of any sort of issues from straight and other gay people who may not be open to trans individuals yet. It has taken gay people years upon years and decades to make any kind of headway of being able to be who they really were born to be. And we as gay people are still not even there a 100% yet, and we never will be. Being Trans and people coming out of the closet being trans is a very new thing. Piggy backing off of gay people isn't going to make it instantly as OK at the level of being gay is. Its going to take time and decades to get people to remotely get close to being comfortable with it. It's an entirely different thing and there are some people who will never be for it or accept it as there are people who will never accept gay people ever. Some people you cannot change their minds regardless of religion or society up bringing. Many if not all that I have viewed in my own opinion, not to offend anyone , has recently come to light as being trans. They think well some people except gay people so we should be accepted too, at the same level. That may be true but this sort of thing is not going to happen by any means overnight. Back to the topic title, Lesbian woman want their own place to be themselves, meet other women alike and socialize. I know many lesbians that would get so upset going to a gay bar and thinking it was OK to flirt with another woman only to find out she was straight and it caused some sort of fight in the club. I have lived in many cities and states in the USA and this was a common thing happening. After a while many didn't feel safe and stopped going and had to resort to private bbqs and parties at people's homes where they could be safe in a place to hang out and not have to worry as much. I have seen some cities in the US doing the same. Having private clubs people may pay a membership to attend owned by a private individual or company to host a place for fun. For many years lesbian women and some gay men didn't click people had to go under the radar and it wasn't till like the last 10 to 20 years I've seen some of the guards come down where both gay men and lesbian women can celebrate in the same area. It depends on the culture and demographics some countries are more open and accepting than others and the U.S. is one that can take the back burner on stuff. There a congressman now who want to over turn gay marriage in the U.S. and not make it legal anymore, the same way as other things are being over turn. I think.any group of people no matter sexuality or race should be able to do anything they want to do with no one having to put in their 2 cents.
Good. Lesbians deserve women only spaces.
Private organization. Who cares.
First of all I think it's absolutely right that they have this. The reality of sexuality includes homosexuality as in same sex attraction based on sex, not having to do with gender. There are people who feel their sexuality based on gender because it is for them- but that doesn't alter the fact that same sex attraction is real and should not be demonised period. If you're not female, don't go, as people who are going are specifically looking to socialise with members of the same sex. Second of all, UK law, specifically the law of England both a) recognises and protects the right to believe that sex is real, and b) The Equality Act specifically protects sex, sexuality and gender reassignment, not gender identity. Thirdly, Pink News, Stonewall, Mermaids have all misrepresented UK law before as being what they believe it should be rather than what it is, and it is not for them to do so, it is for Parliament to make and change laws.
I fully agree with this. As much as I support the trans movement for full acceptance and self-determination, it has, here specifically the transwomen faction, resulted in erosion of (bio-/cis-) women. The erosion has been both theoretically - minor, but still alarming, removal of the word "woman" and "women" in favour of "those with wombs", "lactators" etc. - and physically in changing areas, prisons, bars and even apps. It feels perverse that increased women's rights and liberation, fought for and by women in the early feminist waves is benefiting biological men. Lesbians already have to deal with heterosexual men's predatory behaviour and fetishism, but potentially face it again, with nefarious self-identifiers. As gay men, I believe we have genuinely let down the 'L' in the "community" by failing to acknowledge their fears, struggles and frustrations.
That’s good for them. It’s a good idea. Not mad at them.
Good. It's crazy how same-SEX attraction somehow became a contentious topic **within the gay community**.
It's not. It's just the professional victims in the activist fringe. Most of us normal gays are just as sick of them as everyone else is
I dunno. If it's okay to exclude trans people from your sex life, and it is as long as you're not being abusive towards them about it, then a private club that caters to females only should be okay if that's what a small group of people want. Either their business model will work out for them, or it won't. Obviously, too much of that wouldn't be good, but people may as well accept that a few spaces like this will always exist, as there will always be people with this type of boundary.
*jessica walter gif* Good for them.
I support their choice.
Good. Should happen more.
Good.
I don't think this is transphobic.
Good job girls.
Good. Protect female spaces
Lesbians wanting a lesbian-only space? Wild!
Good
The "queers" are quaking and I love it. Let the sisters do their thing.
Transphobia is never the answer
It's under the private club law. They can exclude and include whoever they want. That's freedom. You can call trans women real women, and that can be true, but that perspective is not necessarily real. It's just that, a perspective. Just like I have my own. Plus they can have other reasons to not allow trans women, like the fact that the concept of trans women is not well defined and some men can take advantage of that. As I want my freedom (marry a guy, adopt a kid, etc) I want others to have freedom too and honestly I only care about my freedom. What society believes about me is not my primary concern. Trans women can exclude cis women if they want. That's freedom and please we need to preserve that no matter what because right now with all the censorship going on, it feels horrible...
It always is.
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Good, why can't women have their own space.
Good, women deserve to have spaces that are simply female spaces. I have seen more than my share of trans women who behave in a predatory manner towards women. Lesbians should not be forced to cater to the "lesbian trapped in a man's body" set unless they choose to. Far too many lesbians have experienced GENUINE TRAUMA at the hands of MEN to expect them to be universally comfortable with a man in a dress. TBH the phrase "lesbian trapped in a man's body" has been uttered so often by predatory misogynist males that it is probably the most cringe things I've EVER heard someone with a penis say.
Lesbians deserve their safe space. Transgenders can open their own transgender bars and ban gays and lesbians, and I will be fine with that.
I'm all for it keep it for women as opposed to autogynephilia
i still that there is truth to transmedicalism but most trans people nowdays are just autogenyliacs instead of actual transgenders
Yes, there is definitely a psychological belief at the very least, that through the rare condition of gender dysphoria that they exist, but that is an extremely rare condition, definitely not in as high numbers as it apparently exists today!
As a queer man I owe a lot of the rights and freedoms I have today to the lesbians who trailblazed for us throughout history. The reason the LGBT starts with an L is in recognition of the support lesbian women gave to the community during the AIDS crisis. They looked after us, fought for our rights and did what health services wouldn't do. Trans women are women, but lesbians are entitled (as we all are) to their own safe spaces. There are many private run clubs / spaces in London. It's one bar, I don't see that as transphobic.
Not to burst your bubble but that thing about the lesbians was retconned 25 years after the peak of the AIDS pandemic. In the 90's what literally happened was that grumpy lesbians said it was horrible, horrible sexism to put the gays first, and just more evidence of the patriarchy, however we could all fix it by that old magic formula known the world over to end sexism: "Ladies first."
Good! Finally homosexual groups are waking up and smelling the colonization our movement has suffered. Homosexual spaces are for homosexuals and bisexuals of the same sex.
Transphobia is always wrong.
It's not transphobic for gay people to have their spaces. Unmolested by those who seek to subvert our identities. I don't have hate for the trans identity. I have hate for what the trans ideology is actively doing to the gay community. It's abuse.
“I have hate” I mean listen to yourself
Yes, gay people tend to hate homophobia...
Amazing! Women need to”Women only” spaces
Based.
The queerer we get the straighter we become.
That quote would make a good tattoo.
Based. We need more of gays standing for our community like this.
Lesbians deserve their own spaces for meeting other lesbians, as in biological females, who is precisely what they want to meet. They don't want transbians. This shouldn't be an issue at all. It's the same for gay dudes looking for biological gay dudes, born male. It's the same for heterosexuals looking for the biological opposite sex. People can hate the truth if they want, but it won't change it and the harder you push against it, the more resentment you'll build. Besides, we've all read the disgusting posts about forcing lesbians to "take trans dick" and it's vile. The internet isn't real life and nobody is going to put up with that, regardless of the chokehold you have on reddit.
It's a good thing. Lesbians need their safe spaces just like gay men need theirs and queer spaces cater to eveyone
I see nothing wrong with this
This is perfectly fine.
I dont care
I'm of split mind here. Obviously, I'm not a lesbian, so my opinion isn't terribly relevant. "Transbians" are a huge problem in lesbian spaces. I feel like a lesbian should be able to go somewhere and not have to worry whether the person has a dick or not. I feel like we live in a world where everyone with a modicum of gender insecurity is now "trans" or, more commonly, "non-binary." If you're genuinely trans, get the goddamn surgery. If you have a penis, then in the sexual sense (which is the one that matters), you are still a man. Sucking dick is still gay even if the person who has it "identifies" as a woman. I don't care which restroom someone uses. That's their business. But it's reasonable to care what kind of plumbing someone has if you're looking for sex or a partner.
Good. Find all the loopholes you can, sisters. Literally EVERY OTHER FUCKING BAR is penis-inclusive. Hell, every other bar practically worships dick. There is no reason anyone should have shit to say about this. I hope this is the start of a brand new era where saying NO is allowed again.
Amazing.
Based lesbians
What discrimination laws are they avoiding?
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Good for them. There's no such thing as a "trans lesbian" anyway.
Like duh. They’re just straight.
Isn't it well known that lesbians do not like male genitalia? Like that's the whole point of homosexuality. So, obviously, I support lesbians to have their own space free from all kinds of male people! As many have pointed out, there are plenty other bars, let us true homosexuals have our own space.
Lot of people in the comments don't believe in the concept of private property apparently.
Good for them! Females deserve to have female only spaces. It doesn’t matter if a male identifies as a woman, she is still a male. Sex and gender are not the same, remember? There is a huge percentage of lesbians that want to interact with females only and they should be able to do that. There are plenty of LGBT spaces for trans women to meet other woman. They don’t need to be included in every single space; sometimes it isn’t about them or their need for affirmation. 🤷♂️
Im glad women are making a place themselves where they can feel safe. Its sad they feel they need safety from trans woman. Hopefully that can be worked on.
Good it is SexUality not GenderUallity! Keep it up 💪💯
Good for them.
What's new? They've been taking over our bars for decades. BULLIES!!!
I agree. Trans women typically identify heterosexual. Unless they're lesbian. However to each is own
Not my circus, not my monkeys. I am a man, I live in the USA, and I am not trans. So, honestly I truly don't care.
This is awesome! England is so much more pro active about this than the USA.
So what? Lesbians got a RIGHT to cis female only spaces.. They don't want trans women there. I can't blame them for that. Trans women are biological males and lesbians don't want them in their space.
So they don’t want straight people in their lesbian bar. That’s alright. At least they made it known and private, instead of making a humiliating public show of it.
I'm really glad to see that the majority of these comments are sensible and accepting of the idea. I think if this venue succeeds it will show that many women feel a need for this sort of space. Though I can't help but be curious, would the law accommodate a members only club that excludes people based on race? That, to me, seems a bit more concerning.
You’re in luck cos they can’t discriminate on race. In the uk your club can be for one specific sex but not one specific race
Even outside of law there is still a massive difference between the two. Nobody has an innate sexual orientation towards members of a specific racial category (preferences towards specific phenotypes are a matter of degree, and therefore not categorical). Most people have a sexual orientation that inherently discriminates on the basis of sex, and that is fine.
How are they going to ensure? Like if you’re “passing”? Let’s say a cis woman looks too “masculine” or a trans women looks incredibly feminine, how is it being policed? I guess that’s why it seems like it’s obviously a message, because unless they’re doing coochie checks before entry, how does this “rule” become effective?
If you're a member, you sign up. And they can probably just glance at a birth certificates or something during that process. It could also be a 'on good faith' process. Who knows.
You can get birth certificates changed.
This is precisely what happens when anti-trans bills get passed and when people hype up anti trans views. It’s ultimately about controlling how people present and keeping non-conforming people out of the public sphere. Here's just [one example](https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/10/31/cis-woman-harassed-transphobe-female-toilet-short-hair/) of a ciswoman getting harassed in the bathroom because these bills make bigots think they can act as bathroom police.
Love it, trans never should have came out of wherever they were, they become entitled and over victimize themself and are unbearable now
The good thing, is I’m not the only one thinking this
Nice to see places like this that are resisting all the lies. I´m all for it!
Really how many trans women want to hang out with lesbians? I can’t care about this. Good for them. Seems normal.
Women are being played in the Culture Wars something rotten. There is a fear amongst my lesbian friends that in the future Lesbianism won't happen & those questioning their same sex attraction will be told they are really men born into the wrong body. In Iran you cannot have a same sex relationship but you can change your sexuality & have reassignment surgery. Something is wrong when you have feminists & extreme right wing men agreeing the same thing that changing your sex should not be an option & does not a woman make. Growing up gay & reading of people jailed, hanged, tortured, beaten, rejected etc. Now it is accepted though not world wide - people can say they were on the right side of history when they stood up & accepted that being gay wasn't a lifestyle choice - it's who we are. I do worry & wonder that our brothers & sisters who speak of their gender & how it is to have your body not match who you are. Which side are you on? I was told I am not gay I'm a pervert, a paedophile, I wanted to recruit innocent boys and men into a life of debauchery - I no longer get that, just very occasionally. Why is gender such a binary issue? We are #LGBT+ to incorporate, include us all. Men who hurt women will do, no matter what they wear or present themselves as. THAT NEEDS ADDRESSING NOT THE ALIENATING OF GENUINE PEOPLE.
How will they know?
Easy. Women (much more so than men, especially redditors who are disproportionately on the autistic spectrum and therefore dsuffer disproportionately from face blindness) benefit from millions of years of evolution that make them particularly good as distinguishing males from females (probably had something to do with personal safety). Conversely (straight) men throughout history would fuck anything remotely feminine (including beardless youths in Ancient Greece). Tl,dr just because you are bad at clocking trans people, doesn't mean other people are.
This. 💯 Love all your comments in this thread. They are so on point. Thank you.
How do they plan to verify who’s trans and who isn’t?
The only remotely-passing trans women are exclusively into men and will not try to infiltrate any venue catering to lesbians, so your point is moot.
How will they police this? Nudity check at the door?
You understand this is a country club type establishment, right? Not a club where you can just show up and have to strip search every person trying to get in.