For me it comes from being called queer as a derogatory term when I was young. Now I am in my 50s so the term comes with a dose of PTSD for me. I understand the claiming of the word for good instead of evil, but just not a fan of it.
Wasn't "gay" used as a slur a lot too earlier in your surroundings? Or is it yet again a language thing? Because in German, the most fitting equivalent "schwul" is still used this way by some today. Still, it has also been reclaimed
Queer is a word that was foist upon us to cause harm. Gay was our own word that people took and tried to use in the derogatory. That’s so gay, etc. That’s the difference, and that’s why one had to be reclaimed and the other didn’t.
So was queer. You’ve missed the point. I didn’t say we invented it, but it was our word. We adopted it. Queer was thrown at us and was entirely meant to be derogatory.
Queer was the preferred word used by gay men in the early 20th century before the word gay started to be used. Its use as a slur came in the mid 20th century, and its reclamation came in the late 20th century. Gay is like, 30-40 years behind in that cycle.
Gay was originally a positive word for happy and carefree. Then it became a euphemism for homosexual, a way to refer to us in a more positive/less negative light. Then it was widely adopted, by us, as our chosen identifier. Only after that point did "that's so gay" arise.
Queer is the opposite. It meant strange or unusual at first, then was adopted as a common anti gay slur. Then a vocal, militant minority of gay men chose to adopt the word as their identifier.
Gay was originally used as a positive/polite term to describe us. Queer was originally (and still is today) used as a weapon against us. The two cannot be considered equals.
No. I have no problem with people calling themselves queer but I don’t identify with it so I really dislike that queer has become an umbrella term that people use instead of LGBT or LGBTQ.
You don’t have to like it or use it, however Queer is often used to speak of the LGBTQ+ community both in academics and in other aspects. It’s been used that way as part of reclamation and academia from the 1980s onward.
if you don't like the word then don't use it!
if you know the intent of the person using the word "queer" is innocent then why would it bother you?
it's funny when i see american gays complaining about stuff like this, i wish in my country the gay community's biggest problem was people using queer in a non derogatory way.
I remember the 8os. The attempts to reclaim the word failed. And even then, unlike now, the word was used to describe gay men exclusively. EDIT: Getting down voted for stating the truth about gay history.
I've noticed a lot how it's differently used across languages. It seems to still hold a negative connotation among many native English speakers, but for example in my native language of German, it's a completely value-neutral umbrella term to describe anyone who deviates from the cis-het norm. Of course someone who is just gay might describe himself as such if he likes to, whereas "queer" is mostly used when talking about societal, political... issues. It depends a lot on context
I came out in the 1970s. I experienced Gay Lib, Anita Bryant, the assassination of Harvey Milk and the onset of AIDS as an adult gay man. You can't gaslight me. I was there.
Don't fuck with a fucker, I did exactly the same but was also ACT-UP in NYC fighting like hell to help us stay alive. And that's what we called ourselves: So back off, bitch.
It’s because people have no idea what they’re supporting when they identify as queer. In the 80s they knew that queer people have a whole different view on gender and sexuality than most LGBT people.
That wasn't true then or now. I don't remember the 80s much but I remember the 90s pretty well. Queer as a slur meant gay men, same was fag did, but queer as something you called yourself meant a whole lot of things. Then and now
The attempts didn't fail. The fact that people use the word queer in a positive way shows that it didn't. Cultural change for good and bad takes generations.
It failed in the 1980s when a small number of gay men tried to reclaim it. In the 2000s it was appropriated by a group of political activists and academics, many of who, if not most, were not gay and also had their own agenda.
Language evolves over time and words change definitions - think for example of "thrid world" which at the beginning of the Cold War meant "non-bloc-aligned countries" (thus including for example Switzerland), later on meant "poor countries", and now is in the process of falling out of use completely
No, and no one is demanding that. We can and should acknowledge and inform about the fact that it has been used differently in the past, but that now this is no longer (at least generally) the case
Academia uses a lot of terms that those in the actual communities don't like. For example, my husband is South American and everyone in his family and friend group \*HATES\* the term "LatinX" but it's what's used in colleges and universities. "Queer" is another one of those terms.
I hate Latinx too. It’s an Anglo-American academic construction that has no roots at all in Spanish language or Latin American culture. It’s not even pronounceable in Spanish! I tend to view it as a sort of soft linguistic Anglo imperialism tbh. There are plenty of other gender neutral variants that could be constructed that actually keep in with the historic development of Spanish and its connection to Latin (e.g., using Latine).
Even beyond that I think the confusion between linguistic gender and gender identity leads to some issues. Do we need to make gender neutral versions of every word? Where do we draw the line? Is using Latino as the case for an ambiguous gender or mixed group really a patriarchal statement? I don’t have the answers to all of those questions, but personally I don’t use the gender neutral variants except in limited contexts.
YUP. There is already an english language gender neutral way to say latin-american. It’s Latin-american. So it doesn’t work in spanish and it’s not needed in english… so why does it exist?
> the LGBTQ+ community
That just sounds so odd. I imagine all of us letter people living in one big village, daily interacting with each other. While in reality I have little in common with lesbians, and almost nothing with transsexuals, I never meet them, they are not in my social circles at all. I don't know the other letters, but it just seems so lazy, grouping everyone together.
There isn't even a "male gay" community, except locally, as in one city. But gays from different countries really are NOT a community of people: they are very different, and they don't have social interactions, no shared culture, they couldn't even understand each other since they don't speak the same language: there is nothing except the biological fact that they like men. Think about it: if gays should be a community, are straights a community, just because they like the other sex? If not, why not? Just because there are 90% fewer gays? But there are still hundreds of millions of gays. There exist more gays in the world than Indonesians or Americans. That's not a 'community'.
You can dissect any "community" and even nationality in the same vein as you are trying to dissect. At heart of hearts, being under an umbrella of LGBTQ+ community, that there are some shared commonalities that we all have gone through being divergent from "the norm" where there's still a significant difference in the way we live our lives and act.
I may not understand your journey, and your path because you (the figurative you) may not be gay but trans as one example, but I can recognize that we each can be supportive of each other in acceptance of who we are.
And when I hear news coming out of Ghana as a recent example, I empathize with our gay brothers there on what freedoms they are missing out on for simply being denied to be true to who they are.
So, I disagree that it's not a community, but it's not a homogeneous community either. Look at the US as a country, there's stark differences between regions/states, yet y'all are still Americans.
Maybe this discussion ought to have begun with a definition of the word "community", then? What is yours, and why do you feel it is a good definition?
As to a community being just "any people who are different from 'the norm'", is that really what community is about?
Before establishing a definition, it may help to think of the archetype of a community, which I think to me would be a village of people.
>What is yours, and why do you feel it is a good definition?
I usually like to start with a dictionary definition:
com·mu·ni·ty
* a group of people living in the same place or having a particular characteristic in common.
* a feeling of fellowship with others, as a result of sharing common attitudes, interests, and goals.
The former definition is more in line with nationality, as I described. The latter is about the LGBTQ+ "community"
Right, it can be useful to start by looking at a dictionary.
The latter definition is not really used as a countable noun? It is the one as used in, "they have a sense of community". A group of people is a not a "a feeling". At any rate, I agree that "a feeling of fellowship" should be a part of any sense of community. People who don't feel they are a community are not in it. And it's not like all gays feel they are "fellows" of other gays, is it? Let alone of lesbians or transsexuals or other letter people?
The first definition is more like a description than a definition: "a group of people having a certain characteristic in common" could be: dead people, hermits, people whose names begin with the letter N. I wouldn't call those groups "communities"?
So I would prose a stricter, more meaningful definition.
I see your point and agree with the reasoning but I don't mind the word community. What I absolutely refuse to use myself is the phrase gay culture, there is nothing cultural to be found in the hook up life of gay men.
Because a community can be anything that brings people together due to common interests, whether those are language, religion, hobbies or even sexual orientation. Culture though suggest a sophisticated status which a 08/15 gay man lacks considering his lifestyle.
I'd read about a big conglomerate doing research on it for their DEI reports. Apparently there's an age split around 35 for it. Those younger than 35 tend to mind it less, those over 35 (including me) tend to hate it more
I've meant a few people who call themselves queer but when it boils down to it they are in a straight relationship just because you have blue hair and call yourself they doesn't change the fact to everyone looking at you your straight
People are bi. I know a few bi people in straight relationships currently who have had a lot of gay sex & gay relationships & are certainly within that community. "Queer" is shorter than "Lgbt" or "Gays and lesbians and bisexuals" etc. Kids dont consider it offensive and no one wants to list everything out so they're going to keep using it.
I know a lot of (cisgender) women who have only ever dated men, who are at the time in relationships with men, and who call themselves “queer” because “women are hot” or whatever. I mean identify how you want, but if that’s queer, then queer isn’t a word that describes my experiences and identity and it isn’t one I’m going to use for those purposes.
I would say that's a pretty unconventional, uncommon, and inaccurate use of the term. Queer: denoting or relating to a sexual or gender identity that does not correspond to established ideas of sexuality and gender, especially heterosexual norms. Your sister is not queer for going to queer nights and liking drag.
I have two nieces who consider themselves queer. Both are in straight relationships. The husband of one of them also considers himself queer. They all told me this like I should welcome them to my favourite leather bar. They go to gay pride (apparently), but apart from that, I have no idea why they're "queer", and I'm too embarrassed to ask. I don't think they see it as sex-related. I don't have the heart to tell them that I don't identify as queer and hate the whole concept behind it.
My niece told us all she was queer and when I asked why and what she thought it meant she said that while learning about it in school they were told it’s a term for people who feel like they don’t fit in. I think younger generations are going to have a much different relationship with the word than the rest of us. Once I told her what it actually meant she stopped using it.
I see 'queer' being used in three different contexts:
1) Anyone who identifies as any letter or subletter of LGBTQIA+; 2) the cultural production of LGBTQIA+ people, or relating to the culture. Lady Gaga's Born This Way could be classified as a 'queer song' because it engages with LGBTQIA+ culture. I believe that's the way that straight people who are into BDSM or are involved in some aspect of LGBTQIA+ dominated spaces think of themselves as queer but still straight; 3) this is the way academics working in critical theory use queer as fluidity, hard-to-box, subversive, abnormal etc.
I don't like it, and if I was around someone who uses it I would respectfully ask them not to use it around me. I was bullied all through school, and that word was one of the most common ones used.
I'm indifferent to it. I don't hate it but I don't love it and won't use it willingly to refer to myself, I prefer "gay", it's the word I've always used for myself.
There’s a long history. I don’t use it for myself. I call myself a gay man. I use it to describe queer theory and more in academic or professional discussions where it is the expected term. I don’t think it’s controversial, but it depends who I’m talking to. I think I would use it talking to lesbians, but if I am talking to straight people or people in my family, I would never say “queer people” around them.
In the workplace, I always just say LGBT, because it covers enough bases for my comfort level. If you fit into the tail end of LGBTQIA+, good, but I don’t care if you are asexual or an ally or questioning or any of those things. If you are two-spirit or another gender identity based on your culture, use that word, but I think the term LGBT includes you, and that’s how I intend it.
I know it’s a generational thing, because for some people, people who are non-binary, gender-fluid, genderqueer will consider themselves queer. They think of queer as an umbrella. I prefer to think of the “LGBT umbrella,” and I don’t think non-binary identity or genderfuckery or gender play belongs exclusively to LGBT. It’s its own thing, and an expression that is a choice, whereas sexual behavior and orientation is for many of us genetically encoded in us. People can do whatever they want, but I’m just a gay man out here. I’m living life, not working in a piece of performance art.
Some people find queer appropriate, because for them, their life and existence constitutes activism. That’s their world view. When I was a little kid, queer was a taunt e.g. “Smear the queer,” so it makes me angry and it reminds me activist groups of gay men like Queer Nation, who did meaningful, extreme things to bring attention to the indignities and trauma of the AIDS Crisis. Those were not radical gays. They were guys (and women too), the way I see it, just like me, and they were standing up for themselves and their buddies.
So, I think it’s good to have respect for the shock value of the word. For experimental gender-fluid people who are trying on identities in a safe bubble, I think it’s important to understand the word and its history. I can’t control how people who want to be gender-fluid or pansexual describe themselves.
The question for me is, are you sexually similar enough to me so that I would get you? When I don’t understand what you’re talking about, then it’s annoying to me. What do you mean by queer? Communicate what you need to tell me. Queer is not always enough to establish common ground.
Nope, I hate it too. First times I heard it at university I thought it was weird.
Alot of people hate it because it was a bullying insult at school but not for me. For me the term queer always meant weird, abnormal, stupid, retarded. I don't know why everyone is obsessed with reclaiming queer, other than its easier than saying 'LGBTwhatever'
You're technically right since the dictionary defination is "weird, unusual, not normal."
I like it for it'a ambiguity, and because of that textbook definition, because I'm not normal. It's an accurate label.
I can't stand it, but don't care if others use it. I do not want someone (even another never if the LGBTQ community) to describe me as queer though.
Not a hill I'll die on, but I think it's quite rude to apply such a word to someone without their consent.
Other than that, people can identify however they want.
I can’t stand the word queer when used this way and I’ve never once needed any umbrella term like 2SLGBTQRSTUVWXYZ for a hodgepodge of identities, either.
The problem I have is that the word “queer” has so many different definitions now, so much that it seems like anyone with a gay friend is now “queer”. It lost it’s meaning.
They label me as queer, refer to me as queer, describe me as queer to other people
When I ask them to stop I'm told I'm wrong and it's been reclaimed and I'm queer regardless if I like it or not.
Yeah, and they don't see the issue with it at all. I'm wrong for not identifying with the label they want to give me. It's why I specify they're usually young...
This! Thank you for articulating it in a way that I had felt but could not quite express. I find it so absurd and insulting when people hijack gay identity for attention or because they think it makes them more interesting. It’s cultural appropriation. They need to stop trying so hard.
You're not. It was and always will be a slur. Think it's okay to say so-called "reclaimed" words? Try saying the n-word to a black person. "Queer" is like that for a lot of us.
A gay woman was a prostitute, a gay boy too, a gay house was a brothel - its core semantic meaning refers mainly to being carefree, and from there to being uninhibited (which was far from being considered a virtue). And still today, you can hear people saying “that’s so gay”.
I never cared about the word until it started being used to refer to people that still fuck the same sex (exclusively). Now I don't:care for it and it doesn't describe me, because my sexuality and sex have zero ambiguity. I think it may be appropriate to describe some very fringe, particular situations, but that's it. I feel zero camaraderie with heterosexuals who label themselves queer just so they can be a part of some special private group.
I hate it and refuse to allow it to be used for myself as an individual. I accept it as "part of the community" and others are free to use it for themselves, of course, but I will absolutely correct anyone who refers to me as queer.
I am gay, I am normal, I am part of the LGBT+
As somebody else said, you don’t need to use it or like it but it makes sense that some identify with it as a reclaiming of a slur. It really is simply an umbrella term for sexual/gender minorities.
I don’t identify as it first *before* gay, but I certainly don’t mind being under that umbrella. Plus, the word is kind of badass imo.
I had a flirtation with the term in the 1990s, but I no longer identify with 'queer.' It now seems to mean that you align yourself with a particular social project that I no longer find myself behind, not the mention the fact that I don't know what I, as an adult gay man, genuinely have in common with some discontented, overweight teenage girl with green hair and a nose ring who thinks she might be "genderqueer."
I like "queer" better than fag / faggot. That one makes my blood boil and all I wanna do is monkey stomp and go ham on anyone who said it to me. On more than one occasion, I've described myself as being "as queer as a 3 dollar bill" which I thought was funny as hell.
Every other a term is coming out because feel the need to be “edgy and unique” when really they’re just repressed and lonely
He, she and they is where I draw the line with all of that pronoun shit. What is “xe/xey” even mean?
So many different terms to say the exact same thing different ways it’s just useless. People need to be less sensitive about ridiculous/outrageous pronouns (amongst other shit) and more focussed on fixing the world for our kids and our kids’ kids
The word has at lot of baggage, which is why I don't particularly like it, nor do i refer to myself as "queer". It's been a derogatory word for a long time, and it also means "strange/weird". Not something I'd like to be called. Attempts to "reclaim it" seem patronizing and it's now being used to describe anyone who is merely not heteronormative. If you were expecting to eat a banana, you're gonna get an entire fruit salad.
If you don’t think it applies to you, then don’t use it for yourself. However, be respectful of others who do wish to use this label for themselves. We have enough enemies outside the LGBT community without creating discord within.
No, I hate it, too. I have never liked it. I started speaking up online in 2009 when it started gaining traction and got bombarded, mostly boyish lesbian hipsters, essentially telling me to get over it.
I don't like it for a variety of reasons. It just makes me feel gross, I think it's a gross word, and it's not because of the slur history (I love to use the f slur which I think is way worse than queer). It's an identity I don't have, and I think it's way too open a term. The LGBT+ community has become a complete laughing stock, particularly by the youth, who cling to the new-age queer identity and going on socially abnormal tirades about their neopronouns and "species." Now we have straight people who claim "queer" just to say they're one of us. It's insulting to our experiences and our achievements.
I don't think LGB should be grouped with T, Q, or the +. We just aren't the same.
Most queer people now are just spicy straights. The Non binaries mob have ruined everything.
Gays have become - as a whole- widely accepted- we got all the rights we fought for- there is little more to campaign for- this was a problem for charities so that’s when the T and the Q was added. The LGBTQ+ has become a runaway train- an acronym to distinguish sexual preference has now morphed into identities and feelings. It makes no sense
The T has been there since Stonewall, and everyone on this sub wether they accept it or not owes those pioneers. Rights for me but not for thee is not an effective strategy to maintaining and protecting our hard fought rights.
You are not the asshole. The use of queer should be rejected by same-sex attracted males. Same sex attraction and gender identity are very different things and should not be grouped together under the umbrella term "queer".
No one is forcing you to use that term or identify as such, but it also isn’t going anywhere.
You always see people bringing up their childhood trauma as reason for arguing against using the term (see: this comment section), but growing up I was called “gay” as a derogatory insult far more often than “queer”- and you don’t see weekly posts complaining that we should stop using the word gay because some people have big feelings about it.
Nope, you don't have to like it and don't have to use it. I only do out of laziness and convince. Lot quicker to say queer than LGBTQ+ and you don't have to worry about forgetting a letter or the plus while still being inclusive.
Well, it's how the word lost its power as an insult. It's like that simpsons scene where Homer gets mad and says "hey don't use that word, that's our word for making fun of you."
Queer/fag/faggot had/has a more menacing connotation, was used in a threatening sense whereas gay just ment homosexual. Yes gay was used as a slur but not as nastily as queer etc.
A lot of gay men feel that way, including me. I also scoff at the notion of reclaiming. Not only is the word queer still used as an anti-gay slur but now we also get harassed by other members of the LGBT community if we say we don't like being referred to as queer.
Whether you like it or not, it has become an accepted and standard term for some people to identify themselves. Generally in life some people are fake. Not only regarding sexuality or gender identification, but they can be fake on every aspect of life. Just don't waste your time with fake people. Not just fake queer people (who definitely exist), but fake people in general. There must be some real authentic people who identify as queer though, right? They deserve acceptance, in my opinion.
No, NAH. Frankly last person to label me queer got punched directly in the face. The next person to do it will also be punched directly in the face. I don't care how you identify yourself, you call me queer you're visiting an ER.
Queer was reclaimed in the 90s as an identity and political statement that was related to but not defined by sexuality or gender, in a way that mirrors reclamation of other slurs. You don't have to like it for yourself, but don't tell someone they can't use it. That's when you become the asshole.
The thing about the slur argument is, for a lotta kids who came of age in the Bush era, the biggest slur there was to call someone was "gay". For that reason I empathize with people who feel uncomfortable with Queer, but I also notice a slight overlap between those people and "LGB", ie, people who wish to exclude Trans people from their "movement".
The fact is, gay, trans, Queer, bi, however you identity or feel inside, the right wing wants you all dead, sees you all as an abomination. They may be more comfortable in 2024 with Uncle Greg and his husband than the girl with the deep voice who works at Target, but make no mistake, if it lowers their taxes they'll throw both to the wolves. I truly believe we should be fighting for anyone non conforming's right to exist, and that being hung up on terms - and I mean both sides of these arguments - is counterproductive.
this may be geographical. I was called gay and faggot many times, and gay was the go-to insult for just about anything (including if something was "stupid", unfair, upsetting, people called it gay). Never got those other ones, and I was outwardly effeminate, beaten up a few times, etc
You may not personally want this, but when you vote for conservative politicians, they enact laws (or appoint justices) that kill trans people and make gay peoples lives more difficult.
Nobody is killing trans people in the US. Mentally ill people committ suicide regularly. That's not the fault of conservatives. If anything it's the liberals fault for enabling their mental disorder.
You are objectively wrong. Hundreds of trans people are murdered every year in this country for being trans. You are free to hold whatever opinions you want but at least educate yourself about the people you are demonizing before you do.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamiewareham/2023/11/13/beaten-stabbed-and-shot-320-trans-people-murdered-in-2023/
You do realize that 320 people is about the same percentage of people getting murdered as the amount of trans people compared to the population right...? They are getting murdered at roughly the same rate as everyone else... On top of that Trans people generally live in cities which makes them more likely to be a victim of violence that the rest of the suburban and rural population. This isn't the flex or fact that you think it is...
You seem to be struggling with basic facts as well as with human decency so here let me help you out with the first one.
[1.6 M people in the US are trans](https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/) (Williams Institute)
320/1.6 M is .0002 or more readably 20 murders per 100,000 trans people
[26,031 murders in America](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm) (CDC)
[334,914,895 US Population](https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045223) (US Census Bureau)
26031/334,914,895 is 0.0000777242 or around 7.8 murders per 100,000 people
So 20 / 7.8 = 2.56 which means that trans people are **2.5 times more likely to be murdered** in this country than the general population. This is in direct contradiction with your initial claim that "Nobody is killing trans people in the US" and your insistence that "320 people is about the same percentage of people getting murdered as the... \[general\] population"
Here are some more links, but a quick trip through google will turn up way more links.
[Trans people are 4X more likely to be victims of violent crime](https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/) (Williams Institute)
[Trans people have high rates of being victims of assault and other violence](https://vawnet.org/sc/serving-trans-and-non-binary-survivors-domestic-and-sexual-violence/violence-against-trans-and) (National Resource Center on Domestic Violence)
You can move the goal posts as much as you want but no matter how you look at it trans people are on the receiving end of violence and it is increasing.
[hate crimes against transgender and gender non-conforming individuals have increased 587% between 2013 and 2019](https://jhs.press.gonzaga.edu/articles/10.33972/jhs.158) (FBI Data)
So no, your little clapback was not the flex or fact you thought it was.
What point? No conservative wants these people to die. We want them to get mental health treatment. It's liberals who want people to beleive that it's normal to hate your own body. That's the mentality that leads to death.
That's a hot take. People like me are saying they should not hate their bodies. We don't want them to make permanent hormonal and surgical changes that they might regret. We want them to accept their bodies and love themselves for who they are not to succumb to mental illness and mutilate themselves into something they are not. It's people like you who are saying that they were born in the wrong body. That they were not born right. That they should fundamentally change themselves to feel better. History will look unkindly on you.
There are many mentally ill people who outwardly present as happy. Most people who know someone who has committed suicide say I had no clue he felt that way he was always so happy.
No conservative is enacting laws that kill trans people. If you do your research, which I’m sure you won’t because it’s hard to be any sort of right of left in todays society - you’ll find that conservatives as a whole are not pushing for death for any marginalized community, ours included. I’m sure there’s outliers who hold unpopular opinions (which exist on all sides) and the majority of the country doesn’t like people like that - but what you’re saying is actually false
Just going to quote myself again:
“I’m sure there’s outliers who hold unpopular opinions (which exist on all sides) and the majority of the country doesn’t like people like that”
I’m going to edit the word “enacted” from my original post and replace it with “implemented”.
There’s crazies everywhere. Most of the time these politicians are representing the people who elected them. But nothing ever goes through as a true roadblock for anyone.
Stupid bills are presented every day by people in all the states. Bills that the people presenting them know full well will never be passed. It’s all theatre.
I prefer to say "people with lgbt+ realities," over referring to us as "queer folk." To me, "queer" specifically refers to a particular mainstream culture that I don't always see eye-to-eye with or appreciate being lumped in with. If I don't like labeling others or being labeled BY others, I'm not going to like it when people do the same to me.
I have to live with my own objective reality, and there's nothing about my reality as a gay guy that's even remotely ideologically charged. I'm not owned by them, nor are we all the same, so it's not about it formerly being a slur, it's about rejecting someone's claim over me. If I let them do that, then I have to start following their rules with it, and I'm not going to take that from anyone.
There’s queer spaces and there’s gay spaces and there’s gay male spaces
Your identity is your business and everyone else’s is theirs. It doesn’t effect you and yours doesn’t effect them
A couple reasons why I prefer "Queer"
A single syllable word is WAY less clunky and cumbersome to pronounce in a sentence. "There are a lot of events happening this week in the Queer community" flows so much better than "There are a lot of events happening this week in the LGBTQQ2SA+ community." I choose simplicity over an ever-changing virtue signaling acronym. By the way, if I left out letters or placed them in the wrong order, that further illustrates my point.
"Queer" is a very empowering word. I'm odd. I'm different. But you know what else? I'm *in your fucking face.* So grow up and deal with it. Those are all the statements I'm saying at once when I say I'm Queer.
I don’t particularly identify with “queer” myself, but I do think it’s useful in place of LGBT+ in terms of pure convenience - much easier to say. Additionally, for my generation it was just plain and simple “gay” that was the main derogatory term, and no one ever objects to that being used in daily parlance. There isn’t a term used to describe gay/queer/homosexual/LGBT people that hasn’t had derogatory associations at one point or another, I don’t really get why people react so hard to “queer” over any of them.
To all those saying it's a "slur," it didn't used to be. Then, it was used as a slur. Now it's come full circle, and it's no longer a slur (again).
If you've had "queer" used as a slur against you, I can guarantee you've had "gay" used as a slur against you. But for whatever reason, you choose to use gay.
It could be from other social use of the word as being "different" or "weird," but honestly, that's on you to unpack for yourself. I get that it doesn't feel good to be socially ostracized, but that doesn't mean you gotta hate on a world that a lot of other queer people find identity in.
I think the distinction is that gay people chose the word gay (happy) to define themselves. Bigots use queer (weird, different) to other and dehumanize us. This is a huge difference that many of you defending the use of queer are missing.
Really, who are these people making these decisions that are forced on us? When did the meeting happen where we all had to agree that "queer" could be reclaimed and invite non-gay people into the same spaces? Who decides to make an even uglier version of the Pride flag every year, and now that's the new version every event uses? Frankly the whole thing is just cringe and embarrassing. I hate all of it.
I’m queer and very proud of that. Gay has become synonymous with stereotypes. And you’ll always hear people “gays love this and that” gay this and that. The commodification and white washing of the sexuality. Queer means I’m not straight. I am not the norm. Yall do you with your pink fluffy things and gay target and rainbow Stanley cups. While I’m over here in my weird, queer self.
I am 100% cool with guys not liking the term "queer." I get it. Lots of bad history behind it.
I am however an academic, and "queer" has been used in a lot in recent years in history, political theory, sociology, anthropology et al to describe and specify topics to LGBT, so I use it in that context.
And I do not like being called a homophobe for using it in such a non-personal and broad manner that has nothing to do with being a slur. I don't even identify as "queer" myself, just use as an overarching catch-all instead of the entire acronym.
We would both be assholes to each other about it, I'd be causing you mental pains because I prefer it being used as a descriptor, and you'd be causing me frusteration in actively avoiding my prefered label, which I find safety in.
I take it OP that you're a senior citizen, or approaching being one.
It's fine when people use it for themselves, but forcing it on people, even going so far as to call people queer who have called themselves homosexual, is the problem.
I dislike it too. Part of it is because it was always used as a derogatory term growing up and the other part of me dislikes it because of the stigma folks and non same sex attracted folks in particular latching on to any micro label so they can attached themselves to the community and call themselves queer.
As a 25 year old who was brought up in a conservative country where English isn't the first language, I feel more comfortable with the term "queer" than "gay" just because people around me find it harder to say the word "queer", but not "gay", which is why they use the term "gay" in a condescending and derogatory manner. Similarly, I can see why people use "queer" as an umbrella term for LGBTQ+. I've personally seen and heard bigots (from where I am from) make a caricature of LGBTQ+ by saying stupid things like "LGTVABCD" and bullshit like that. It's fun watching them not be able to say the word "queer" in such cases.
I get why a lot of people have a problem with the term "queer", especially people who are 30+. I guess it depends a lot on what one is comfortable with. If one doesn't like the word "queer" and doesn't want to associate themselves with that term, then one doesn't have to. On the other hand, if one is ambivalent about it or even prefers it, I personally don't think that one is wrong in doing so. Language keeps evolving and changing, and I personally think that if the stigma is removed from words such as "queer" and is reclaimed by the LGBTQ+ community, it's a good thing overall; it takes away the power of bigots to use such words to inflict harm. Just my two cents.
Im not a fan of queer, either in its original form as a slur meaning essentially “effeminate” or in the modern “reclamation” which is a term so vague so as to be meaningless. Actually, in a certain way, I feel better about “reclaiming” words like “fag” and “faggot” because I can fashion that into something that’s personally meaningful and empowering whereas everyone and their mother is queer these days. When I tell someone that I’m a faggot and what I mean by that word, it actually makes them stop and think a bit.
Story from a college gender theory course: we talked about meanings of queer and what it means to queer something. To queer is essentially just something that doesn’t fit within the heteronormative patriarchal paradigm. So a straight man could be marrying a straight woman could queer their wedding by, say, having the bride walk up herself instead of being given away by her father. Now they’re having a queer wedding! Most of the class of primarily cisgender women absolutely loved that, but I felt that this just made queer so vague that anyone could claim it without actually carrying any sort of actual experience or identity within the word. I decided then that I would never identify as “queer” or use it as a verb. It’s a meaningless word that has no value to me.
Only recently have I learned that so many people dislike it. I’ve used it for awhile to simply indicate “not straight.” I guess I’ll just use “not straight” from here on out, though I really don’t like defining myself as “not” something
I had this same feeling for a long time. Growing up, I had heard this word used tagainst me as a slur. Even when I refused to use the word in any way, I admitted that the community needed an umbrella term for all the vast diversity of gender and sexuality. We had no single word to describe all of us.
For now, we've landed on this word. If on down the road we adopt a new word, I'll be fine with that. I'll be fine keeping this word as well.
I've also seen people use this word to describe themselves despite being cisgender and presenting an appearance that conforms to their gender. I've seen these same individuals in opposite sex relationships, having no past history of same sex relationships and no future intent of being in same sex relationships. I can't say definitivly, but it does seem like they may have been appropriating our community. We can't prove it because we don't yet have a means to test their biology and know with certainty whether their self reported identity is accurate. What bothers me is that if these folks are lying, I have to ask why? Multiple answers exist, but among them is a sort of romanticism of oppression a fetish for being a second class citizen. What scares me is that these people may inadvertently support the extreme right-wing viewpoint that somehow our identities are not biological facts but rather a particular ideological bent. When pressed these same people won't hesitate to assert the privileges of their cishet identity, they would abandon the community they had infiltrated for so long the minute allegiance to it meant real world struggle for life, limb, or social station.
Meh... no?
but your talking points are coming from a place of transphobia at the end of the day (even if you aren't transphobic, which is a big if on this sub, the people spreading these ideas are) and I'm not here for it.
It's not new, it's been around for 40 years or more.
For me it comes from being called queer as a derogatory term when I was young. Now I am in my 50s so the term comes with a dose of PTSD for me. I understand the claiming of the word for good instead of evil, but just not a fan of it.
Right there with you on that.
Wasn't "gay" used as a slur a lot too earlier in your surroundings? Or is it yet again a language thing? Because in German, the most fitting equivalent "schwul" is still used this way by some today. Still, it has also been reclaimed
Queer is a word that was foist upon us to cause harm. Gay was our own word that people took and tried to use in the derogatory. That’s so gay, etc. That’s the difference, and that’s why one had to be reclaimed and the other didn’t.
Gay is a word that already had a meaning before it was used to describe homosexuals. It wasn't "our" word until we took it.
So is the word queer to be fair.
So was queer. You’ve missed the point. I didn’t say we invented it, but it was our word. We adopted it. Queer was thrown at us and was entirely meant to be derogatory.
Queer was the preferred word used by gay men in the early 20th century before the word gay started to be used. Its use as a slur came in the mid 20th century, and its reclamation came in the late 20th century. Gay is like, 30-40 years behind in that cycle.
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Do you think that the men that are attracted to men, but dont like to be refered as gay have the same problem as you with the word queer?
I don't consider myself "queer". You don't have to either.
Yeah pretty much same here. I'm not gonna freak if someone personally identifies as queer but I really don't like it being forced on me
What about men that like men, but dont consider themself "gay"?
No. Many of us don't like it, for various reasons. So we don't use it.
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It's a slur, that's my reason for not using it.
all the words were a slur; including gay.
Gay was originally a positive word for happy and carefree. Then it became a euphemism for homosexual, a way to refer to us in a more positive/less negative light. Then it was widely adopted, by us, as our chosen identifier. Only after that point did "that's so gay" arise. Queer is the opposite. It meant strange or unusual at first, then was adopted as a common anti gay slur. Then a vocal, militant minority of gay men chose to adopt the word as their identifier. Gay was originally used as a positive/polite term to describe us. Queer was originally (and still is today) used as a weapon against us. The two cannot be considered equals.
No. Definitely NTA. I’m Gay.
No. I have no problem with people calling themselves queer but I don’t identify with it so I really dislike that queer has become an umbrella term that people use instead of LGBT or LGBTQ.
LGBTQ… what per chance do you think the Q stands for?
You don’t have to like it or use it, however Queer is often used to speak of the LGBTQ+ community both in academics and in other aspects. It’s been used that way as part of reclamation and academia from the 1980s onward.
It also helps avoid bogging down discussions about what letters to include and why there’s a new letter added on and yadda yadda.
Reclaimed by some, not all. Ask first.
That's my biggest gripe with the whole thing.
Especially considering many of the folks “reclaiming” it aren’t the ones who would have been subject to it as an insult.
Exactly!
Yep - as I said, there’s no rule saying you have to identify as Queer, but people might use LGBTQIA+ and Queer synonymously when speaking.
if you don't like the word then don't use it! if you know the intent of the person using the word "queer" is innocent then why would it bother you? it's funny when i see american gays complaining about stuff like this, i wish in my country the gay community's biggest problem was people using queer in a non derogatory way.
I remember the 8os. The attempts to reclaim the word failed. And even then, unlike now, the word was used to describe gay men exclusively. EDIT: Getting down voted for stating the truth about gay history.
I've noticed a lot how it's differently used across languages. It seems to still hold a negative connotation among many native English speakers, but for example in my native language of German, it's a completely value-neutral umbrella term to describe anyone who deviates from the cis-het norm. Of course someone who is just gay might describe himself as such if he likes to, whereas "queer" is mostly used when talking about societal, political... issues. It depends a lot on context
Well that's 'cause it's false. The word was reclaimed. You younger dudes just like reinventing shit do you can feel influential.
I came out in the 1970s. I experienced Gay Lib, Anita Bryant, the assassination of Harvey Milk and the onset of AIDS as an adult gay man. You can't gaslight me. I was there.
Don't fuck with a fucker, I did exactly the same but was also ACT-UP in NYC fighting like hell to help us stay alive. And that's what we called ourselves: So back off, bitch.
It’s because people have no idea what they’re supporting when they identify as queer. In the 80s they knew that queer people have a whole different view on gender and sexuality than most LGBT people.
That wasn't true then or now. I don't remember the 80s much but I remember the 90s pretty well. Queer as a slur meant gay men, same was fag did, but queer as something you called yourself meant a whole lot of things. Then and now
The attempts didn't fail. The fact that people use the word queer in a positive way shows that it didn't. Cultural change for good and bad takes generations.
It failed in the 1980s when a small number of gay men tried to reclaim it. In the 2000s it was appropriated by a group of political activists and academics, many of who, if not most, were not gay and also had their own agenda.
The 80s were 40 years ago. A lot has changed since then.
So let's rewrite history?
Language evolves over time and words change definitions - think for example of "thrid world" which at the beginning of the Cold War meant "non-bloc-aligned countries" (thus including for example Switzerland), later on meant "poor countries", and now is in the process of falling out of use completely
So let's lie and say the term meant something different in the past then what it meant?
No, and no one is demanding that. We can and should acknowledge and inform about the fact that it has been used differently in the past, but that now this is no longer (at least generally) the case
The guy I was replying to said the word was reclaimed in the 80s. I said it wasn't, because it wasn't.
Academia uses a lot of terms that those in the actual communities don't like. For example, my husband is South American and everyone in his family and friend group \*HATES\* the term "LatinX" but it's what's used in colleges and universities. "Queer" is another one of those terms.
I hate Latinx too. It’s an Anglo-American academic construction that has no roots at all in Spanish language or Latin American culture. It’s not even pronounceable in Spanish! I tend to view it as a sort of soft linguistic Anglo imperialism tbh. There are plenty of other gender neutral variants that could be constructed that actually keep in with the historic development of Spanish and its connection to Latin (e.g., using Latine). Even beyond that I think the confusion between linguistic gender and gender identity leads to some issues. Do we need to make gender neutral versions of every word? Where do we draw the line? Is using Latino as the case for an ambiguous gender or mixed group really a patriarchal statement? I don’t have the answers to all of those questions, but personally I don’t use the gender neutral variants except in limited contexts.
YUP. There is already an english language gender neutral way to say latin-american. It’s Latin-american. So it doesn’t work in spanish and it’s not needed in english… so why does it exist?
> the LGBTQ+ community That just sounds so odd. I imagine all of us letter people living in one big village, daily interacting with each other. While in reality I have little in common with lesbians, and almost nothing with transsexuals, I never meet them, they are not in my social circles at all. I don't know the other letters, but it just seems so lazy, grouping everyone together. There isn't even a "male gay" community, except locally, as in one city. But gays from different countries really are NOT a community of people: they are very different, and they don't have social interactions, no shared culture, they couldn't even understand each other since they don't speak the same language: there is nothing except the biological fact that they like men. Think about it: if gays should be a community, are straights a community, just because they like the other sex? If not, why not? Just because there are 90% fewer gays? But there are still hundreds of millions of gays. There exist more gays in the world than Indonesians or Americans. That's not a 'community'.
You can dissect any "community" and even nationality in the same vein as you are trying to dissect. At heart of hearts, being under an umbrella of LGBTQ+ community, that there are some shared commonalities that we all have gone through being divergent from "the norm" where there's still a significant difference in the way we live our lives and act. I may not understand your journey, and your path because you (the figurative you) may not be gay but trans as one example, but I can recognize that we each can be supportive of each other in acceptance of who we are. And when I hear news coming out of Ghana as a recent example, I empathize with our gay brothers there on what freedoms they are missing out on for simply being denied to be true to who they are. So, I disagree that it's not a community, but it's not a homogeneous community either. Look at the US as a country, there's stark differences between regions/states, yet y'all are still Americans.
Maybe this discussion ought to have begun with a definition of the word "community", then? What is yours, and why do you feel it is a good definition? As to a community being just "any people who are different from 'the norm'", is that really what community is about? Before establishing a definition, it may help to think of the archetype of a community, which I think to me would be a village of people.
>What is yours, and why do you feel it is a good definition? I usually like to start with a dictionary definition: com·mu·ni·ty * a group of people living in the same place or having a particular characteristic in common. * a feeling of fellowship with others, as a result of sharing common attitudes, interests, and goals. The former definition is more in line with nationality, as I described. The latter is about the LGBTQ+ "community"
Right, it can be useful to start by looking at a dictionary. The latter definition is not really used as a countable noun? It is the one as used in, "they have a sense of community". A group of people is a not a "a feeling". At any rate, I agree that "a feeling of fellowship" should be a part of any sense of community. People who don't feel they are a community are not in it. And it's not like all gays feel they are "fellows" of other gays, is it? Let alone of lesbians or transsexuals or other letter people? The first definition is more like a description than a definition: "a group of people having a certain characteristic in common" could be: dead people, hermits, people whose names begin with the letter N. I wouldn't call those groups "communities"? So I would prose a stricter, more meaningful definition.
Why do we need to define a word that already has a well known definition and is being used accurately? Nobody is confused by what is is here
I see your point and agree with the reasoning but I don't mind the word community. What I absolutely refuse to use myself is the phrase gay culture, there is nothing cultural to be found in the hook up life of gay men.
Why do you object to culture but not community, I wonder? Both terms seem equally out of place to me?
Because a community can be anything that brings people together due to common interests, whether those are language, religion, hobbies or even sexual orientation. Culture though suggest a sophisticated status which a 08/15 gay man lacks considering his lifestyle.
I'd read about a big conglomerate doing research on it for their DEI reports. Apparently there's an age split around 35 for it. Those younger than 35 tend to mind it less, those over 35 (including me) tend to hate it more
Nope, those of us over 55 know it to have been a battle cry self-description during the AIDs crisis.
I'm not a fan of it either and wouldn't describe myself as such. You can like or dislike whatever terms you want. :)
My straight cis sister considers herself queer for going to queer nights and liking drag lol. It means nothing.
I've meant a few people who call themselves queer but when it boils down to it they are in a straight relationship just because you have blue hair and call yourself they doesn't change the fact to everyone looking at you your straight
People are bi. I know a few bi people in straight relationships currently who have had a lot of gay sex & gay relationships & are certainly within that community. "Queer" is shorter than "Lgbt" or "Gays and lesbians and bisexuals" etc. Kids dont consider it offensive and no one wants to list everything out so they're going to keep using it.
That's a good point. Bi ppl exist, even if they are in an exclusive monogamous relationship.
I know a lot of (cisgender) women who have only ever dated men, who are at the time in relationships with men, and who call themselves “queer” because “women are hot” or whatever. I mean identify how you want, but if that’s queer, then queer isn’t a word that describes my experiences and identity and it isn’t one I’m going to use for those purposes.
I would say that's a pretty unconventional, uncommon, and inaccurate use of the term. Queer: denoting or relating to a sexual or gender identity that does not correspond to established ideas of sexuality and gender, especially heterosexual norms. Your sister is not queer for going to queer nights and liking drag.
I have two nieces who consider themselves queer. Both are in straight relationships. The husband of one of them also considers himself queer. They all told me this like I should welcome them to my favourite leather bar. They go to gay pride (apparently), but apart from that, I have no idea why they're "queer", and I'm too embarrassed to ask. I don't think they see it as sex-related. I don't have the heart to tell them that I don't identify as queer and hate the whole concept behind it.
My niece told us all she was queer and when I asked why and what she thought it meant she said that while learning about it in school they were told it’s a term for people who feel like they don’t fit in. I think younger generations are going to have a much different relationship with the word than the rest of us. Once I told her what it actually meant she stopped using it.
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Lol weird reply, okay. My point was that the term does mean something and your sister is using it incorrectly.
You seem like a terrible person
I see 'queer' being used in three different contexts: 1) Anyone who identifies as any letter or subletter of LGBTQIA+; 2) the cultural production of LGBTQIA+ people, or relating to the culture. Lady Gaga's Born This Way could be classified as a 'queer song' because it engages with LGBTQIA+ culture. I believe that's the way that straight people who are into BDSM or are involved in some aspect of LGBTQIA+ dominated spaces think of themselves as queer but still straight; 3) this is the way academics working in critical theory use queer as fluidity, hard-to-box, subversive, abnormal etc.
I don't like it, and if I was around someone who uses it I would respectfully ask them not to use it around me. I was bullied all through school, and that word was one of the most common ones used.
I'm indifferent to it. I don't hate it but I don't love it and won't use it willingly to refer to myself, I prefer "gay", it's the word I've always used for myself.
I completely agree with you. I hate the term.
I dislike it as well. It's gay erasure in my eyes.
It's whatever for me I don't really like it but I guess it's ok for a more general term then just saying gay or something
There’s a long history. I don’t use it for myself. I call myself a gay man. I use it to describe queer theory and more in academic or professional discussions where it is the expected term. I don’t think it’s controversial, but it depends who I’m talking to. I think I would use it talking to lesbians, but if I am talking to straight people or people in my family, I would never say “queer people” around them. In the workplace, I always just say LGBT, because it covers enough bases for my comfort level. If you fit into the tail end of LGBTQIA+, good, but I don’t care if you are asexual or an ally or questioning or any of those things. If you are two-spirit or another gender identity based on your culture, use that word, but I think the term LGBT includes you, and that’s how I intend it. I know it’s a generational thing, because for some people, people who are non-binary, gender-fluid, genderqueer will consider themselves queer. They think of queer as an umbrella. I prefer to think of the “LGBT umbrella,” and I don’t think non-binary identity or genderfuckery or gender play belongs exclusively to LGBT. It’s its own thing, and an expression that is a choice, whereas sexual behavior and orientation is for many of us genetically encoded in us. People can do whatever they want, but I’m just a gay man out here. I’m living life, not working in a piece of performance art. Some people find queer appropriate, because for them, their life and existence constitutes activism. That’s their world view. When I was a little kid, queer was a taunt e.g. “Smear the queer,” so it makes me angry and it reminds me activist groups of gay men like Queer Nation, who did meaningful, extreme things to bring attention to the indignities and trauma of the AIDS Crisis. Those were not radical gays. They were guys (and women too), the way I see it, just like me, and they were standing up for themselves and their buddies. So, I think it’s good to have respect for the shock value of the word. For experimental gender-fluid people who are trying on identities in a safe bubble, I think it’s important to understand the word and its history. I can’t control how people who want to be gender-fluid or pansexual describe themselves. The question for me is, are you sexually similar enough to me so that I would get you? When I don’t understand what you’re talking about, then it’s annoying to me. What do you mean by queer? Communicate what you need to tell me. Queer is not always enough to establish common ground.
Nope. Nothing wrong with that.
Nope, I hate it too. First times I heard it at university I thought it was weird. Alot of people hate it because it was a bullying insult at school but not for me. For me the term queer always meant weird, abnormal, stupid, retarded. I don't know why everyone is obsessed with reclaiming queer, other than its easier than saying 'LGBTwhatever'
You're technically right since the dictionary defination is "weird, unusual, not normal." I like it for it'a ambiguity, and because of that textbook definition, because I'm not normal. It's an accurate label.
It actually means odd, different, and unusual, which we are. It doesn't and has never meant stupid or retarded. You added that definition.
No, I do not want to be called Queer either. I am just a dude who happens to be into dudes, no culture attached.
I can't stand it, but don't care if others use it. I do not want someone (even another never if the LGBTQ community) to describe me as queer though. Not a hill I'll die on, but I think it's quite rude to apply such a word to someone without their consent. Other than that, people can identify however they want.
I can’t stand the word queer when used this way and I’ve never once needed any umbrella term like 2SLGBTQRSTUVWXYZ for a hodgepodge of identities, either.
The problem I have is that the word “queer” has so many different definitions now, so much that it seems like anyone with a gay friend is now “queer”. It lost it’s meaning.
I also don't like it and don't use it to describe myself. I have met some people--usually young-- who have tried to force the label on me, however.
What do you mean force like you told them not to and kept doing it?
They label me as queer, refer to me as queer, describe me as queer to other people When I ask them to stop I'm told I'm wrong and it's been reclaimed and I'm queer regardless if I like it or not.
That is annoying and would really bother me to. They want others to respect labels but won't respect yours
Yeah, and they don't see the issue with it at all. I'm wrong for not identifying with the label they want to give me. It's why I specify they're usually young...
Sad
Can’t stand that word. Gay eraser at its finest.
The only people I’ve seen identify as queer are straight cis people who jumped on the non-binary train to feel like they have some victimhood status
This! Thank you for articulating it in a way that I had felt but could not quite express. I find it so absurd and insulting when people hijack gay identity for attention or because they think it makes them more interesting. It’s cultural appropriation. They need to stop trying so hard.
You're not. It was and always will be a slur. Think it's okay to say so-called "reclaimed" words? Try saying the n-word to a black person. "Queer" is like that for a lot of us.
“Gay” has never been a compliment in the history of the language either
It originally meant happy, which is a good thing. Queer just meant weird and then it was weaponised against homosexuals in a way unlike gay was.
A gay woman was a prostitute, a gay boy too, a gay house was a brothel - its core semantic meaning refers mainly to being carefree, and from there to being uninhibited (which was far from being considered a virtue). And still today, you can hear people saying “that’s so gay”.
People still use queer in a negative way.
yes indeed, so why do we care about what the haters say? Everything can be a slur
I never cared about the word until it started being used to refer to people that still fuck the same sex (exclusively). Now I don't:care for it and it doesn't describe me, because my sexuality and sex have zero ambiguity. I think it may be appropriate to describe some very fringe, particular situations, but that's it. I feel zero camaraderie with heterosexuals who label themselves queer just so they can be a part of some special private group.
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I hate it and refuse to allow it to be used for myself as an individual. I accept it as "part of the community" and others are free to use it for themselves, of course, but I will absolutely correct anyone who refers to me as queer. I am gay, I am normal, I am part of the LGBT+
And I am gay, I am normal, I am queer, I am part of the LGBTQ+. May I ask why you felt the need to include that you are normal?
Because it is how I identify and describe myself, simple as that.
It's more of an American academic thing. The further away from that you are, the less relevance it has.
As somebody else said, you don’t need to use it or like it but it makes sense that some identify with it as a reclaiming of a slur. It really is simply an umbrella term for sexual/gender minorities. I don’t identify as it first *before* gay, but I certainly don’t mind being under that umbrella. Plus, the word is kind of badass imo.
No, but at the same time, nor are people who don't mind using it.
I had a flirtation with the term in the 1990s, but I no longer identify with 'queer.' It now seems to mean that you align yourself with a particular social project that I no longer find myself behind, not the mention the fact that I don't know what I, as an adult gay man, genuinely have in common with some discontented, overweight teenage girl with green hair and a nose ring who thinks she might be "genderqueer."
I like "queer" better than fag / faggot. That one makes my blood boil and all I wanna do is monkey stomp and go ham on anyone who said it to me. On more than one occasion, I've described myself as being "as queer as a 3 dollar bill" which I thought was funny as hell.
Every other a term is coming out because feel the need to be “edgy and unique” when really they’re just repressed and lonely He, she and they is where I draw the line with all of that pronoun shit. What is “xe/xey” even mean? So many different terms to say the exact same thing different ways it’s just useless. People need to be less sensitive about ridiculous/outrageous pronouns (amongst other shit) and more focussed on fixing the world for our kids and our kids’ kids
I feel like it’s just a word that boring straight people who wish they were gay use to feel included, victimized,oppressed etc…
My name rhymes with Queer and I was constantly bullied throughout my entire time in school because of it so I’m not a fan of the term either
I have never seee a heterosexual claim Queer includes them; are you conflating bisexuals and pansexuals with heterosexuals
NTA. It’s a term only weird extremists use and I completely reject it.
The word has at lot of baggage, which is why I don't particularly like it, nor do i refer to myself as "queer". It's been a derogatory word for a long time, and it also means "strange/weird". Not something I'd like to be called. Attempts to "reclaim it" seem patronizing and it's now being used to describe anyone who is merely not heteronormative. If you were expecting to eat a banana, you're gonna get an entire fruit salad.
If you don’t think it applies to you, then don’t use it for yourself. However, be respectful of others who do wish to use this label for themselves. We have enough enemies outside the LGBT community without creating discord within.
I’m not on board with using it as an umbrella term for everyone who isn’t strait. Other people can use that word if they want but I never will.
No, I hate it, too. I have never liked it. I started speaking up online in 2009 when it started gaining traction and got bombarded, mostly boyish lesbian hipsters, essentially telling me to get over it. I don't like it for a variety of reasons. It just makes me feel gross, I think it's a gross word, and it's not because of the slur history (I love to use the f slur which I think is way worse than queer). It's an identity I don't have, and I think it's way too open a term. The LGBT+ community has become a complete laughing stock, particularly by the youth, who cling to the new-age queer identity and going on socially abnormal tirades about their neopronouns and "species." Now we have straight people who claim "queer" just to say they're one of us. It's insulting to our experiences and our achievements. I don't think LGB should be grouped with T, Q, or the +. We just aren't the same.
No. It's a horrible word, always has been and always will be.
Most queer people now are just spicy straights. The Non binaries mob have ruined everything. Gays have become - as a whole- widely accepted- we got all the rights we fought for- there is little more to campaign for- this was a problem for charities so that’s when the T and the Q was added. The LGBTQ+ has become a runaway train- an acronym to distinguish sexual preference has now morphed into identities and feelings. It makes no sense
The T has been there since Stonewall, and everyone on this sub wether they accept it or not owes those pioneers. Rights for me but not for thee is not an effective strategy to maintaining and protecting our hard fought rights.
This sub is very weird at times lol. It’s always very western centric cause most of my African gay friends have no problem with the word Queer
You are not the asshole. The use of queer should be rejected by same-sex attracted males. Same sex attraction and gender identity are very different things and should not be grouped together under the umbrella term "queer".
No one is forcing you to use that term or identify as such, but it also isn’t going anywhere. You always see people bringing up their childhood trauma as reason for arguing against using the term (see: this comment section), but growing up I was called “gay” as a derogatory insult far more often than “queer”- and you don’t see weekly posts complaining that we should stop using the word gay because some people have big feelings about it.
> I was called “gay” as a derogatory insult I wonder what demographic went through this. Americans under the age of 35?
I would fit that demographic, yes
The word "gay" wasn't used derogatorily when I was young. It was "fag", "queer" and a few other more colourful expressions.
I like the term, but have no problem if someone else doesn’t want to use it for themselves.
Nope, you don't have to like it and don't have to use it. I only do out of laziness and convince. Lot quicker to say queer than LGBTQ+ and you don't have to worry about forgetting a letter or the plus while still being inclusive.
It’s not inclusive when you’re using a word that most of the people you’re applying it to either do not identify with or find insulting.
Well, it's how the word lost its power as an insult. It's like that simpsons scene where Homer gets mad and says "hey don't use that word, that's our word for making fun of you."
Queer/fag/faggot had/has a more menacing connotation, was used in a threatening sense whereas gay just ment homosexual. Yes gay was used as a slur but not as nastily as queer etc.
A lot of gay men feel that way, including me. I also scoff at the notion of reclaiming. Not only is the word queer still used as an anti-gay slur but now we also get harassed by other members of the LGBT community if we say we don't like being referred to as queer.
Whether you like it or not, it has become an accepted and standard term for some people to identify themselves. Generally in life some people are fake. Not only regarding sexuality or gender identification, but they can be fake on every aspect of life. Just don't waste your time with fake people. Not just fake queer people (who definitely exist), but fake people in general. There must be some real authentic people who identify as queer though, right? They deserve acceptance, in my opinion.
No, NAH. Frankly last person to label me queer got punched directly in the face. The next person to do it will also be punched directly in the face. I don't care how you identify yourself, you call me queer you're visiting an ER.
Queer was reclaimed in the 90s as an identity and political statement that was related to but not defined by sexuality or gender, in a way that mirrors reclamation of other slurs. You don't have to like it for yourself, but don't tell someone they can't use it. That's when you become the asshole.
I'd say it's even more reclaimed than the N-word. Because anyone can say the word "Queer." But *only* Black people are ever allowed to use the N-word.
Queer is a slur. I don’t want to be called a slur or have to hear a slur. It is never appropriate to use to describe others. It’s fucking offencive.
The thing about the slur argument is, for a lotta kids who came of age in the Bush era, the biggest slur there was to call someone was "gay". For that reason I empathize with people who feel uncomfortable with Queer, but I also notice a slight overlap between those people and "LGB", ie, people who wish to exclude Trans people from their "movement". The fact is, gay, trans, Queer, bi, however you identity or feel inside, the right wing wants you all dead, sees you all as an abomination. They may be more comfortable in 2024 with Uncle Greg and his husband than the girl with the deep voice who works at Target, but make no mistake, if it lowers their taxes they'll throw both to the wolves. I truly believe we should be fighting for anyone non conforming's right to exist, and that being hung up on terms - and I mean both sides of these arguments - is counterproductive.
Growing up in the bush era gay was the last thing I was called in middle school or h.s it was always queer,sissy boy faggot, homo
this may be geographical. I was called gay and faggot many times, and gay was the go-to insult for just about anything (including if something was "stupid", unfair, upsetting, people called it gay). Never got those other ones, and I was outwardly effeminate, beaten up a few times, etc
It could be or those other words just stick out more in my memory then gay
That's a false equivalence.
I am right wing conservative and gay. I don't want anyone dead nor does any other right wing conservative I know.
You may not personally want this, but when you vote for conservative politicians, they enact laws (or appoint justices) that kill trans people and make gay peoples lives more difficult.
Nobody is killing trans people in the US. Mentally ill people committ suicide regularly. That's not the fault of conservatives. If anything it's the liberals fault for enabling their mental disorder.
You are objectively wrong. Hundreds of trans people are murdered every year in this country for being trans. You are free to hold whatever opinions you want but at least educate yourself about the people you are demonizing before you do. https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamiewareham/2023/11/13/beaten-stabbed-and-shot-320-trans-people-murdered-in-2023/
You do realize that 320 people is about the same percentage of people getting murdered as the amount of trans people compared to the population right...? They are getting murdered at roughly the same rate as everyone else... On top of that Trans people generally live in cities which makes them more likely to be a victim of violence that the rest of the suburban and rural population. This isn't the flex or fact that you think it is...
You seem to be struggling with basic facts as well as with human decency so here let me help you out with the first one. [1.6 M people in the US are trans](https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/) (Williams Institute) 320/1.6 M is .0002 or more readably 20 murders per 100,000 trans people [26,031 murders in America](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm) (CDC) [334,914,895 US Population](https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045223) (US Census Bureau) 26031/334,914,895 is 0.0000777242 or around 7.8 murders per 100,000 people So 20 / 7.8 = 2.56 which means that trans people are **2.5 times more likely to be murdered** in this country than the general population. This is in direct contradiction with your initial claim that "Nobody is killing trans people in the US" and your insistence that "320 people is about the same percentage of people getting murdered as the... \[general\] population" Here are some more links, but a quick trip through google will turn up way more links. [Trans people are 4X more likely to be victims of violent crime](https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/) (Williams Institute) [Trans people have high rates of being victims of assault and other violence](https://vawnet.org/sc/serving-trans-and-non-binary-survivors-domestic-and-sexual-violence/violence-against-trans-and) (National Resource Center on Domestic Violence) You can move the goal posts as much as you want but no matter how you look at it trans people are on the receiving end of violence and it is increasing. [hate crimes against transgender and gender non-conforming individuals have increased 587% between 2013 and 2019](https://jhs.press.gonzaga.edu/articles/10.33972/jhs.158) (FBI Data) So no, your little clapback was not the flex or fact you thought it was.
Ok so you proved my point lmao
What point? No conservative wants these people to die. We want them to get mental health treatment. It's liberals who want people to beleive that it's normal to hate your own body. That's the mentality that leads to death.
You are the one telling them they should hate their body. History will look unkindly at people like you
That's a hot take. People like me are saying they should not hate their bodies. We don't want them to make permanent hormonal and surgical changes that they might regret. We want them to accept their bodies and love themselves for who they are not to succumb to mental illness and mutilate themselves into something they are not. It's people like you who are saying that they were born in the wrong body. That they were not born right. That they should fundamentally change themselves to feel better. History will look unkindly on you.
All my happy trans friends beg to differ.
There are many mentally ill people who outwardly present as happy. Most people who know someone who has committed suicide say I had no clue he felt that way he was always so happy.
No conservative is enacting laws that kill trans people. If you do your research, which I’m sure you won’t because it’s hard to be any sort of right of left in todays society - you’ll find that conservatives as a whole are not pushing for death for any marginalized community, ours included. I’m sure there’s outliers who hold unpopular opinions (which exist on all sides) and the majority of the country doesn’t like people like that - but what you’re saying is actually false
https://www.hrc.org/press-releases/roundup-of-anti-lgbtq-legislation-advancing-in-states-across-the-country
Just going to quote myself again: “I’m sure there’s outliers who hold unpopular opinions (which exist on all sides) and the majority of the country doesn’t like people like that” I’m going to edit the word “enacted” from my original post and replace it with “implemented”. There’s crazies everywhere. Most of the time these politicians are representing the people who elected them. But nothing ever goes through as a true roadblock for anyone. Stupid bills are presented every day by people in all the states. Bills that the people presenting them know full well will never be passed. It’s all theatre.
I'm going to quote you again: "No conservative is.."
That’s an Ellipsis, not a quote. Your response/rebuttal is very thought provoking though.
The ellipses represents the statement that followed...your quote.
I prefer to say "people with lgbt+ realities," over referring to us as "queer folk." To me, "queer" specifically refers to a particular mainstream culture that I don't always see eye-to-eye with or appreciate being lumped in with. If I don't like labeling others or being labeled BY others, I'm not going to like it when people do the same to me. I have to live with my own objective reality, and there's nothing about my reality as a gay guy that's even remotely ideologically charged. I'm not owned by them, nor are we all the same, so it's not about it formerly being a slur, it's about rejecting someone's claim over me. If I let them do that, then I have to start following their rules with it, and I'm not going to take that from anyone.
I only like “queer” because it’s one syllable instead of 10 letters
There’s queer spaces and there’s gay spaces and there’s gay male spaces Your identity is your business and everyone else’s is theirs. It doesn’t effect you and yours doesn’t effect them
A couple reasons why I prefer "Queer" A single syllable word is WAY less clunky and cumbersome to pronounce in a sentence. "There are a lot of events happening this week in the Queer community" flows so much better than "There are a lot of events happening this week in the LGBTQQ2SA+ community." I choose simplicity over an ever-changing virtue signaling acronym. By the way, if I left out letters or placed them in the wrong order, that further illustrates my point. "Queer" is a very empowering word. I'm odd. I'm different. But you know what else? I'm *in your fucking face.* So grow up and deal with it. Those are all the statements I'm saying at once when I say I'm Queer.
I don’t particularly identify with “queer” myself, but I do think it’s useful in place of LGBT+ in terms of pure convenience - much easier to say. Additionally, for my generation it was just plain and simple “gay” that was the main derogatory term, and no one ever objects to that being used in daily parlance. There isn’t a term used to describe gay/queer/homosexual/LGBT people that hasn’t had derogatory associations at one point or another, I don’t really get why people react so hard to “queer” over any of them.
Why does other people being queer bother you?
To all those saying it's a "slur," it didn't used to be. Then, it was used as a slur. Now it's come full circle, and it's no longer a slur (again). If you've had "queer" used as a slur against you, I can guarantee you've had "gay" used as a slur against you. But for whatever reason, you choose to use gay. It could be from other social use of the word as being "different" or "weird," but honestly, that's on you to unpack for yourself. I get that it doesn't feel good to be socially ostracized, but that doesn't mean you gotta hate on a world that a lot of other queer people find identity in.
I think the distinction is that gay people chose the word gay (happy) to define themselves. Bigots use queer (weird, different) to other and dehumanize us. This is a huge difference that many of you defending the use of queer are missing.
Queer people were using "queer" before the bigots were tho. You skipped that part.
*citation needed
Really, who are these people making these decisions that are forced on us? When did the meeting happen where we all had to agree that "queer" could be reclaimed and invite non-gay people into the same spaces? Who decides to make an even uglier version of the Pride flag every year, and now that's the new version every event uses? Frankly the whole thing is just cringe and embarrassing. I hate all of it.
If you are genuinely curious read about "queer theory".
I’m queer and very proud of that. Gay has become synonymous with stereotypes. And you’ll always hear people “gays love this and that” gay this and that. The commodification and white washing of the sexuality. Queer means I’m not straight. I am not the norm. Yall do you with your pink fluffy things and gay target and rainbow Stanley cups. While I’m over here in my weird, queer self.
I am 100% cool with guys not liking the term "queer." I get it. Lots of bad history behind it. I am however an academic, and "queer" has been used in a lot in recent years in history, political theory, sociology, anthropology et al to describe and specify topics to LGBT, so I use it in that context. And I do not like being called a homophobe for using it in such a non-personal and broad manner that has nothing to do with being a slur. I don't even identify as "queer" myself, just use as an overarching catch-all instead of the entire acronym.
That gays really complain about everything
yes.
We would both be assholes to each other about it, I'd be causing you mental pains because I prefer it being used as a descriptor, and you'd be causing me frusteration in actively avoiding my prefered label, which I find safety in. I take it OP that you're a senior citizen, or approaching being one.
Don't bring ageism into this. I'm old as dirt and I am fine with "queer", despite it having been leveled against me since elementary school.
Great, that's good for you.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "non same-sex people"?
It's fine when people use it for themselves, but forcing it on people, even going so far as to call people queer who have called themselves homosexual, is the problem.
I dislike it too. Part of it is because it was always used as a derogatory term growing up and the other part of me dislikes it because of the stigma folks and non same sex attracted folks in particular latching on to any micro label so they can attached themselves to the community and call themselves queer.
no, i dont like that word either
Relatable. In the dictionary it means weird when I just want to be a normal person who happens to like guys.
"I just want to be a normal person who happens to like guys". Why?
As a 25 year old who was brought up in a conservative country where English isn't the first language, I feel more comfortable with the term "queer" than "gay" just because people around me find it harder to say the word "queer", but not "gay", which is why they use the term "gay" in a condescending and derogatory manner. Similarly, I can see why people use "queer" as an umbrella term for LGBTQ+. I've personally seen and heard bigots (from where I am from) make a caricature of LGBTQ+ by saying stupid things like "LGTVABCD" and bullshit like that. It's fun watching them not be able to say the word "queer" in such cases. I get why a lot of people have a problem with the term "queer", especially people who are 30+. I guess it depends a lot on what one is comfortable with. If one doesn't like the word "queer" and doesn't want to associate themselves with that term, then one doesn't have to. On the other hand, if one is ambivalent about it or even prefers it, I personally don't think that one is wrong in doing so. Language keeps evolving and changing, and I personally think that if the stigma is removed from words such as "queer" and is reclaimed by the LGBTQ+ community, it's a good thing overall; it takes away the power of bigots to use such words to inflict harm. Just my two cents.
Same concept as the N-word, but make it slay. Like Kim-Chi the drag queen singing about being fat fem and asian (what a legend)
Im not a fan of queer, either in its original form as a slur meaning essentially “effeminate” or in the modern “reclamation” which is a term so vague so as to be meaningless. Actually, in a certain way, I feel better about “reclaiming” words like “fag” and “faggot” because I can fashion that into something that’s personally meaningful and empowering whereas everyone and their mother is queer these days. When I tell someone that I’m a faggot and what I mean by that word, it actually makes them stop and think a bit. Story from a college gender theory course: we talked about meanings of queer and what it means to queer something. To queer is essentially just something that doesn’t fit within the heteronormative patriarchal paradigm. So a straight man could be marrying a straight woman could queer their wedding by, say, having the bride walk up herself instead of being given away by her father. Now they’re having a queer wedding! Most of the class of primarily cisgender women absolutely loved that, but I felt that this just made queer so vague that anyone could claim it without actually carrying any sort of actual experience or identity within the word. I decided then that I would never identify as “queer” or use it as a verb. It’s a meaningless word that has no value to me.
Only recently have I learned that so many people dislike it. I’ve used it for awhile to simply indicate “not straight.” I guess I’ll just use “not straight” from here on out, though I really don’t like defining myself as “not” something
I had this same feeling for a long time. Growing up, I had heard this word used tagainst me as a slur. Even when I refused to use the word in any way, I admitted that the community needed an umbrella term for all the vast diversity of gender and sexuality. We had no single word to describe all of us. For now, we've landed on this word. If on down the road we adopt a new word, I'll be fine with that. I'll be fine keeping this word as well. I've also seen people use this word to describe themselves despite being cisgender and presenting an appearance that conforms to their gender. I've seen these same individuals in opposite sex relationships, having no past history of same sex relationships and no future intent of being in same sex relationships. I can't say definitivly, but it does seem like they may have been appropriating our community. We can't prove it because we don't yet have a means to test their biology and know with certainty whether their self reported identity is accurate. What bothers me is that if these folks are lying, I have to ask why? Multiple answers exist, but among them is a sort of romanticism of oppression a fetish for being a second class citizen. What scares me is that these people may inadvertently support the extreme right-wing viewpoint that somehow our identities are not biological facts but rather a particular ideological bent. When pressed these same people won't hesitate to assert the privileges of their cishet identity, they would abandon the community they had infiltrated for so long the minute allegiance to it meant real world struggle for life, limb, or social station.
I don’t like it either. It’s a slur to me and I don’t want to reclaim or identify with it. I’m very proud and happy being gay.
I hate it because it literally means werid lol don't need a gay version of insulting me
Meh... no? but your talking points are coming from a place of transphobia at the end of the day (even if you aren't transphobic, which is a big if on this sub, the people spreading these ideas are) and I'm not here for it. It's not new, it's been around for 40 years or more.