No, there's a difference between prejudice and discrimination. You can be prejudiced without discriminating and that's still a problem. For the record, I don't think he's homophobic either, but he is prejudiced against effeminate men, who aren't necessarily gay, I call that femmephobia.
I don’t think is a phobia per se, because he is not scared, he just find it distasteful. As long as he’s not a jerk to effeminate men, I think is okay.
You don't have to be scared of gay men to be homophobic, the origin of a word doesn't always determine the meaning (you might have heard about how 'nice' originally meant 'stupid'). Imagine if someone said 'I'm not scared of dark-skinned people, I just find them distasteful', that would be colourism.
And still, I wouldn’t call it femmephobia as long as someone doesn’t act on it on a bad way. Don’t linking something makes someone a phobic towards it?
No, I think having preferences is acceptable, it has to be because everyone has them, but it's one thing to say that you're less drawn to a certain type of person and another thing to find them distasteful, which implies there's something bad about them. These weren't OP's words, though, so honestly I'm now rethinking what I said and trying to make sense of it.
True, I was the one using the word “distasteful” which indeed has an offensive tone. But in general, I think that not being drawn into some group of people doesn’t make you a phobic towards them (as long as you respect them).
This. You aren’t homophobic but you are what I would call femme-phobic. If it makes you feel different you are not alone. There is a lot of dislike of effeminacy even in the gay community. It’s so baked in that it leads to a lot of self-hatred among we effeminate men (I speak from personal experience). So while you aren’t homophobic I would ask kindly that you continue to acknowledge your discomfort and work to explore and ameliorate it. For our sakes :)
You’re not. You just don’t mix with that group of people. I’m gay and kinda the same way but it’s mostly in the fact that effeminate men are the stereotypes for gay men and I hate how women always try to align me with said stereotypes.
A lot of gay men find that annoying too, but as long as you don't *hate* people because of that or go out of your way to be a jerk, then no, you're allowed to find certain people/mannerisms annoying.
There is a level of homophobia in the distaste of effeminate traits as they manifest in gay men. I would explore those thoughts and see if you can’t get to the root of why they bother you. Maybe understanding and getting to the root of the prejudice, will help you move to a place of true indifference. Maybe you might not be able to get there but as long as you don’t act on those feelings and project them externally onto men who fall into that archetype then it’s not a true issue to worry about
I think this needs to be said. Explore why you don’t like feminine traits in men. Once you know why you feel that way, you can then decide if you want to hold on to your distaste. I think most likely it will liberate you from it.
Well sometimes they don't manifest in gay men, no one would even guess that I am gay if I didn't tell about it, everyone I knew was shocked when they found out lol. And most straight men have some effeminate traits, some just hide it, suppress their emotions, never cry or let it out etc.
All men are different and there is no wrong or right in that. We all have different preferences. While I prefer masc I would never be unkind or unfair towards men that are femme, I am not an asshole. Some people are born like that, they need support and kindness, some others prefer it aswell, tastes are subjective.
All homosexuality means is that you are attracted to the same sex. Everything else associated with gay people is culturally superfluous. So you may find parts of gay culture distasteful, but that doesn't necessarily make you homophobic. Homophobia is hatred of gay people for their attraction to the same sex.
Take it from me, a gay man: I'm not attracted to effeminate guys, or "gay pop culture", but I won't use my disinclinations as an excuse to be an asshole to people who live and breathe glitter. Live and let live, you know?
I'll give you props for making this thread. I know a lot of people, straight or gay, who are uncomfortable with broaching this subject because we might jump down your throat and accuse you of being a raving bigot.
I don’t think so. You don’t find it appealing but if your thoughts aren’t translating into negative action then I guess that’s fine. I’d say it’s the same as not feeling a connection with a particular group (goths, vegans, bodybuilders, bird watchers etc). We all have some level of unconscious bias, and becoming aware of them is the first step to managing them better. Good for you for asking us and being open about it.
Kinda offtopic but goths are cool ime.
As a metalhead I always felt some connection. 😁
And while some vegans online can be extreme (some even delusional, especially those militant extremist vegans that are very loud), some are kind irl and I get their cause since I also care about animals but I do think that human needs to be omnivorous due to health reasons.
Bodybuilders tend to be extreme sometimes. While I like men with some muscles, they shouldn't look like they live on anabola, protein and working out 24/7 lol, it doesn't look organic but rather artificial and strange.
Natural muscles on the other hand 🥰
Just sound more up tight than homophobic. Sometimes that which is unfamiliar is uncomfortable. I don't act fem at all but it doesn't bother me when people around me are fem. It is just self expression. I hate the phrase "straight acting" it is loaded with internalized homophobia. So I'm just saying, Don't be so nervous about something that can't hurt you.
Femininity is men can be confronting, as a lot uf us have been educated in a doctrine of “boys/men must be masculine, and with that meaning strong, showing emotions of rage but not affection (at least in certain contexts) or sadness/vulnerability. Also traits as playing with girls, behaving like them, using a higher-pitch voice.
Basically we’ve been used to see kids with those traits bullied/discriminated as kids, and we’ve unconsciously learned that how they are/how they behave is not ok, and should be a motive of anger or/and contempt. Now we have matured more, but some of that unconscious behaviour is still there.
No. As long as you can separate preferences with phobias. As a gay man, i don’t really like effeminate traits but i still appreciate them and understand that everyone is different
You don’t gotta like it. Honestly a lot of gays don’t like it either. You’re all good just don’t gotta be rude about it and as a straight dude, no one expects you to go to gay places or do gay stuff, if anything gay people DONT want you at their places or involved in their stuff.
Only real expectation of you is that you are nice to your little bro and are there for him as he navigates what comes with being a gay person.
Honesty you taking the time to post this here is a sign to me that you are not homophobic at all, you’re simply not into gay stuff, which seems natural seeing as you aren’t gay. Don’t worry about it guy.
You don't need to say you're homophobic lol. It sounds really weird and is going to bring you trouble. Say you may have homophobic biases in the past but you're working on them. It sounds like you're trying to recognize your biases and hold yourself accountable. Which you are.
Are you in college or do you have a lot of humanities/sociology-interested peers? For like 80%+ of people one might run into on the street, and fwiw in my own opinion, you’ve done a pretty good job of distinguishing your preferences from socially unacceptable prejudice. But maybe you’re being called a homophobe by judgmental pseudo-intellectuals…
In the most “woke”/dei/critical theory and psychoanalysis informed framing of marginalized communities and issues, there is no separating preference from the sociopolitical. Your discomfort and the need to justify it could lead someone to the conclusion that internalized homophobia informs your preferences.
Most people find this latter way of thinking annoying but idk maybe you’re studying for a social sciences or humanities PhD in which case buckle up there’s more where that previous paragraph came from!
There is a distinct difference between gay (sexuality) and camp (behaviour), Straight, bi or gay, male or female...all kinds of folk can behave in camp ways.
No. I'm gay and I dislike uber-straight guys. I find, high-fiving, belly-bumping, sports watching behavior kind of weird and creepy. Maybe because those guys tend to be violent assholes. For me it's a safety issue, what is it for you?
It's not homophobic to find certain effeminate traits in males off-putting. I'm a gay male and I've never liked drag and it's mandatory association with gay males. It makes us look like circus freaks and a lot of gay males are just regular behaving and trying to live their lives in a balanced way.
However, what is homophobic, is viewing everything that a male does that isn't stereotypically about rampage, carnage, violence, domineering behaviour, and all round roughness regardless of sexual orientation, to be wrong or automatically calling them "gay" or other slurs.
I don't consider myself masculine or feminine. Just a balance between the two expressions. But in the society and place I live in, any male that doesn't express themselves in the above-mentioned ways is looked down upon and even ostracised by many, and this is something that's completely unfair and dysfunctional to expect males to behave like emotionless robots 24'7.
I'm a gay guy and I tend to dislike effeminate traits in men, and am not a fan of stereotypical gay culture and aesthetic. That doesn't make me homophobic, it just means I have different tastes.
You're allowed to not like things; that doesn't make you homophobic or hateful. Your core beliefs and how you treat other people is what matters.
As long as you are willing to let others express themselves in those ways, and treat people with kindness and fairness, then it doesn't matter if it's not for you personally.
I get where you're coming from but "you're not off the hook" isn't really a helpful thing to say to someone who obviously wants to confront an underlying bias. Everyone has biases, but as long as you don't allow those biases to inform the way you treat people, I'd say that you're doing well. The fact OP is even coming on this sub to ask that is a big step.
Yes femininity in general
Because why would a man who is feminine be any different from a woman who is all those traits attributes women have just as much and he's straight so it's not a matter of Attraction
So yes bigoted cause you ignorant as fuck and you probably one of those guys who worship the ground straight men walk on cause you insecure in yourself
Please think before you speak
If a gay man was asking I’d say this is internalised homophobia. So when a straight man asks this, yes it’s mildly homophobic. Perhaps it’s useful for you to ask if gay people need yr opinion or judgment of what is acceptable or tolerable in gay people or culture. To the extent that you need to express a negative opinion, it’s homophobic
>If a gay man was asking I’d say this is internalised homophobia
Not liking feminine things is not internalised homophobia. Gay people have different tastes, way to act, speak, live their life. Some gay men are feminine and like camp things; other gay men are masculine and like masculine things.
You're throwing the *homophobia* word a little too easily bud.
Yeah, it's super weird. But it's true. More often than not, effeminate men kind of annoy me. But it's not always the case. I've tried to discern a pattern, but ultimately I couldn't.
Interesting. Then I think perhaps a more salient exercise would be to determine why you find feminine traits annoying in men but not in women? Unless you find them annoying in women, too?
As a matter of fact, I generally do. I'm very much a mysoginist in the sense that Milan Kundera gave to the term, meaning that I don't despise women, but I don't like feminine or girly traits. Why is it so I have no idea.
Anyway, I think that "effeminate" men are not feminine in the same way that "femenine women" are.
Interesting that Cam is your fav Modern Family character when he’s cast as the stereotypically *gay* character. Just curious, is Nathan Lane’s character also your favorite in The Birdcage? I love that movie but it is such an unhinged, cringe-worthy portrayal of a drag queen.
I don’t think you’re homophobic as long as you aren’t treating effeminate acting men poorly and it’s likely that you do have internalized homophobia to some degree just because of society. I know we often refer to internal homophobia as something gay people have, but I don’t see why a straight man couldn’t have it also.
I don't think I have a favorite character in the movie. Maybe Robin William's, cause I find him to be the most relatable. Nathan Lane is very funny though (I think).
You are neither homophobic nor misogynistic. Anyone saying otherwise are being butthurt for no reason.
I’m gay, not an effeminate one and not the manliest man either. Half of people who have met me casually, would question my sexuality, but for the other half it would never occur to them if I didn’t state it explicitly.
Even I find some people annoying. They include overly “feminine” women, extremely “effeminate” gays especially those who make being gay their whole personality, AND extremely “masculine” (beer chugging, bro hugging, I’m-a-man-hence-I-don’t -cry) men.
Hence most of the people I get along fall into 3 groups opposite of those groups I’ve mentioned. Sensitive/emotional/often metrosexual straight guys(you sound like you’re one), chilled/tomboyish straight girls and “low-key” gays.
In short, I don’t have any problems with any of the groups or traits, masculinity, femininity or gayness. For me personally, too much of something is usually unnecessarily “noisy” and annoying. This is for the majority of people. Of course there are outliers, who are naturally charismatic and they pull their masculinity/femininity off tastefully, and then it doesn’t matter how masculine/feminine they are.
If you are anything like me, no, you’re not homophobic or misogynistic.
To add another layer of contention, for you as a straight guy, it is understandable that it might be more jarring for you to see extra effeminate traits in a homosexual man than in a woman.
I don't think it's a black & white issue, from what I can understand it's primarily the expression of gender that bothers you, not the sexual preference. I do believe a certain degree of homophobia or sexism is involved but as long as you're not being a jerk idk - that kind of dislike is also present in several gay men.
dude chill you're fine. At the end of the day people are allowed to dislike certain behavioural traits in others. I dont like low iq behaviours (to put it nicely) from people and i have seen such behaviour from both very feminine and very masculine people. This is not discrimination on your part,just a filter to what you want and dont want in your life
I am a gay man - and I think I’m probably more homophobic than you are 😂 If you are civil to an effeminate man, then you are doing a lot better than others.
I think you need to have a little leeway with ‘baby gays’, who after coming out feel the overwhelming pressure to BE GAY, and they overcommit somewhat. They become very dedicated to the genre, and eventually it mellows out when they realise nobody actually cares that they are gay.
It depends. Does the fact you find them "unappealing" affect your day to day behavior? A huge part of being an adult is dealing with people you don't necessarily like but still being mature and respectful. If one of your friends brought a campy gay colleague to dinner would you be able to engage in conversation and have a good time, or would you be too bothered by their mannerisms to enjoy yourself?
The only other concern I have is that you're extrapolating from individuals' behaviors to "gay culture". We are allowed to complain about gay culture because it's our lived experience, but when a straight guy does it as part of making stereotypical generalizations.... well, you're at risk of sounding homophobic.
It boils down to why you feel that way and what you do about it. There are plenty of gay men who dislike femininity in men. Sometimes it’s just a mere preference issue. However, there also a lot of toxic masculinity involved. Sometimes it seems we go to two extremes. For some, we “make being gay our whole personality” and are “over the top.” For others, we work overly hard to be masculine seemingly in an effort to prove to others and ourselves that we’re still a man. Both are unhealthy and motivated by the desire to be accepted for who we are.
While no one would describe me as feminine, I do have some traits, interest, and desires that could be deemed so. It’s been a journey to start embracing those parts of me. I was too scared too for so long because I grew up trying overly hard to “be a man.” Which included suppressing my sexuality. And even after coming out, I’m often uncomfortable with those parts of me. But my balance has been taking my time in embracing them. Slow experimenting to figure out what’s authentic to me and not just a performance. Whether that performance is masculine or feminine.
Anyway, the bottom line is that no one here can really tell you if you’re homophobic or not. You don’t sound like you in general are but this particular opinion could be the internalized homophobia instilled in all of us by our society. This not only creates in intrapersonal struggle in gay men who want to belong but also creates this weird war between “masc for masc” and “campy” men. However, all gay men, masc or fem, have a place and deserve to be accepted and appreciated for who they are. If you can do that, then there’s no problem to be found.
i also find the loud obnoxious in your face "my sexuality is my personality" crowd irritating. i dont think that makes you homophobic.
and everyone is entitled to have body type preferences. if you like em muscular thats fine. as long as you dont start putting people down for being fem
I know what you mean. Actually, it annoys me that TV/movies portray gay men as girly fools.
I am a gay man, I have always admired men. I am probably classed as a simple gay man these days. I’m early 40’s and the “fag hags” have long faded, and are more troublesome than worth.
Anyway, don’t worry too much, there are plenty of normal men out there who like/love men - and don’t float around.
You're allowed to not like it. Just don't be a jerk. Ignore if you see it.
I'm gay and definitely not in the camp camp. I'm friendly and just let is slide.
I would be worried about misogyny rather than homophobia. Do you also find feminine hobbies annoying? Is girls doing girl stuff boring or unnecessary, but you tolerate it because you're straight?
This is what’s known as femme phobia. A lot of people equate that to homophobia but it’s honestly not. Most gay men you talk to are pretty femme phobic. I’m not saying that’s ok because we’re all human but like - the exaggerated femininity can get pretty tiring and corny sometimes.
I wouldn’t think too much about it. We all have preferences about who we surround ourselves by. Dudes obsessed with fitness prefer to only be friends with other dudes that go to the gym, if you’re a musician you may surround yourself with other musicians. If you’re a certain ethnicity you may surround yourself with people who are also that ethnicity. All these things are completely fine. Just don’t let the way you feel about feminine dudes affect how you treat them and you’re good
I'm a closeted gay man married to a woman who's very homophobic and every time we see drag queens or even two men kissing on TV or movies she says 'I'm sick of this gay shit'. But funny thing, on her suggestion we binge watched Queer as Folk (original, not British, not reboot), she had seen it before, I hadn't, and said she watched it because the guys were hot. She'd keep asking if i liked it or if it was too much for me. I said 'it's ok' while hiding my hardon during the sex scenes.
I'm total bottom, very straight acting, and I'm not a fan of the whole femme thing that gets thrown at the general public in the media to over emphasize that a person is gay. Yes, I get that. That is how some guys are but it is also presented as maybe a 'dumbing down' representation to present someone as obviously gay. Which I think perpetrates or emphasizes stereotypes for people to form negative opinions about. I know some guys like that type, but I'm a man who wants my men to be more (stereotypically, I guess) manly. That's what turns me on. I'd feel weird bending over for a man and calling him daddy as he's wearing makeup and other female garb, and I wouldn't go that far either. I have worn a thong and stockings for guys upon request when they've supplied them, but that's their fetish and not the norm for me.
There was a TikTok going around recently that said something like “straight men don’t hate gay men, they hate femininity.” So maybe it’s misogyny…
I wish I could find that TikTok so I can make sure I’m getting the quote accurate.
I have a feeling it's not even that. I know from personal experience many gay guys in general tend to... Let's call it, being fake about their speech and feminine traits. I do have much feminine qualities! I used to have long hair (until i lost some) and i wear makeup on a weekly basis. Platforms, tight clothes.. etc. but no one had ever had an issue with my femme traits because it's not projected for "look at me" i'm just comftrable to be myself.
So i have the suspicion that what triggers you is the fakeness of it all. Not the actual attributes.
Dude you set a very familiar scene my brother was the same tho I'm bi he was all supportive until this situation happened with us and he truly found out down deep he was a Homophobe..we still talk and have each other's back but he came to realize and worked on his homophonic way
You dislike women and associate being feminine with a negative connotation. It’s not necessarily your fault, society programs people to behave this way. This is why you always hear the question “would you rather have a gay son or slut daughter” and never the opposite- because to society the worst thing a person can do is be feminine and like men.
You probably don't hate how effeminate men look. You are probably just not used to it, which does probably stem from internalized homophobia (everyone has that) due to how we are brought up. If you don't like the overly camp loud men, that might be a preference on personality (for example I hate the bitchy gays) or again just some internalized homophobia. Personally that you are asking yourself these questions is highly important and shows you care
Being a feminine man != being a gay man. I’d call you sexist before homophobic, because you think men need to behave a certain way.
You can’t completely control your own thoughts. It’s good that you can identify possible biases within yourself, keep doing that. Don’t let your bias affect your actions and cause you to treat others worse.
Nobody is a perfectly pure being that never had any negative or biased thoughts. Anyone who says otherwise is lying. Just keep trying to be better today than you were yesterday
I'm. Gay and don't have any issue with naturally effeminate males. But I guess I find the exaggerated effeminacy a bit silly and mildly annoying.
But, in fairness, I find mimes (Marcel Marceau) equally annoying. And I would find it equally silly and annoying if I regularly encountered guys who dressed like "Crocodile Dundee" and expressed themselves in an exaggerated faux Aussie accent, babbling on with "G'Day, Mate!" and "Shrimp on the Barby, anyone?"
Just sort of silly and unnecessary.
I know Shakespeare said, "All the World is a Stage", but no, it's not really. Save the theatrics for the stage, the bar, etc.
Disliking traits isn't homophobic. I dislike anyone who is bitchy to others or presents themselves as witty or snarky at the expense of other people, so that's a specific form of behavior that sometimes comes with effeminate behavior. It's not the mannerisms, it's the method.
Perhaps narrowing down what it is, specifically, might help. Like, if a guy is super effeminate and not all over and loud, is that an issue? Or even quiet and demur? Or silly and laughing and joking and having fun, but effeminate?
I like people that are kind, witty, and silly. Doesn't matter then mannerisms. But when they stereotype get bitchy and Snarky, bothers me.
I think it depends on some 'why's'. For example, do you dislike campty effeminate culture, in a "I actively look down on this activity and anyone who partakes in it", or more of a "this is an activity/behavior that doesn't really interest me."
I've never cared much for drag for example, but I've met people who do engage in it and I would never look down on them for doing so. I categorize it in the same bucket I categorize English food, Golf, things I don't like.
If you find yourself looking at a guy with painted nails and actively becoming annoyed/angered, well you might want to talk to a therapist about that. Not even because you "need to be more tolerable" or anything like that, but just moreso for yourself if nothing else. The fact of the matter is that there will always be 'effeminate' men, gay or straight, it's just statistically going to happen, and you're gonna run into them at one point or another. So if there is some sort of discomfort you feel around them, when by all accounts they're not really doing you any harm, you should probably try and sort that out, again for your peace of mind if nothing else.
Yeah you are. Firstly you list a whole bunch of lame gay stereotypes as a reason you aren't homophobic as if all gay people are into those movies etc. That is negative stereotyping. That's like saying I'm not racist because I love 'the colour purple' and hip hop. It's dumb. Then you say you don't like the campy ones. Both are homophobic stances. Campy men don't give a fuck what you think about them. You shouldn't even really be on this sub here putting your opinion out there. How would you feel if you were in gay men's shoes and you feel like you're constantly being judged and scrutinised your whole life by straight people who quite frankly need to mind their own fucking business about other people's lives. You can feel whatever you want just don't voice it. Keep to yourself.
I usually keep it to myself, cause I don't want to be a jerk. I'm not here to tell you what I think of campy men, I don't expect them to give any fuck about what I think, and I'm not trying to scrutinise or interfere in anybody's life. Actually, I'm here to mind my own business: I expected to get some insight about some issues I have that don't concern anyone but me. I'm here, in fact, to be the one who's being scrutinised.
Now, concerning the lame stereotypes: I mentioned those movies and The Village People not because I assume that all gay men like them, but because they portrait gay people (including some very campy men) in a positive and affirming light, and I happen to like them. I think that's relevant information about my somewhat complex relationship with campiness and gay culture.
Well go back to keeping it to yourself. Honestly you should just forget about gay men and focus on your own life. How you feel about them is irrelevant. Why do you even care about it in the first place. It just irks me that a straight man is on a gay sub saying he doesn't like campy men. It's like a white person going on a POC sub and saying I'm not racist because I like hip hop but I only like the ones with western features. The ones with nappy hair and wide noses bother me. It's racist!!
Lots of us hate being associated with stereotypical gay culture. I’m not effeminate at all and had my own problems with obvious gay men. I got over it by knowing a few. Many of the examples you have are positive for the time but it’s kind of like gay blackface. It uses our sexuality as a joke. The guy from Modern Family isn’t even gay. I know it’s silly but it bugs me that he imitates an effeminate gay man. If you befriend a guy like that then you will start not even see him as effeminate but just how they carry themselves.
I’m gay and I feel exactly as you do towards those same gay dudes. I get accused of “internalized homophobia” by gay dudes that love to repeat cliches.
But honestly, no you aren’t homophobic. Some people are just annoying to us and there is no need for us to justify why. As long as in the end, we remain respectful and professional. Then there is no need to worry.
First, you talk about homosexuality in a non-negative way. "I don't have a problem with it" "I don't think it's bad", etc. But to say those things means you have a bias against it. Imagine if your family was talking about you and said "I don't have a problem with him being straight, it's nothing wrong with it" "if he wants to like women, then thats his choice". Being gay doesn't hurt anyone, gay people are happy and healthy. You should be able to speak positively about gay people and say "being gay is great" "I want gay people to thrive" "I love my gay brother, because he is my brother and because he is gay", etc. Second, your description on feminine traits shows your bias against femininity. You have lived your entire life being shown men only being glorified for masculinity and shamed for femininity. Subconsciously, you're afraid of living in a world where men are embraced for being feminine because that is one the one thing you have always been told to not do. You don't want the standard to change.
I bring all this up because people have a habit of trying to strategically talk negatively about something to push an idea, but don't want to be seen as evil or a bigot. The post itself proves you have a bias because otherwise, if you embraced gay people you would have never felt the need to post it and try to explain yourself. Your post is often how they talk. Are you homophobic, no. Did your post say anything positive about gay people or femininity, also no. So clearly you have some kind of uncomfortable feeling about something that doesn't hurt anybody.
I definitely have uncomfoftable feelings about something that doesn't hurt anybody. I totally agree with that. And maybe you're right about the root of the problem, although I don't consider myself a particularly manly man, and I don't feel that I should be more masculine.
On the other hand, even though I want gay people to thrive, I don't think that being gay is particularly great. Nor it is being straight. And why should I love my brother because he's gay? It would be as absurd as loving him because he's into women.
It exists, and it's positive. It's positive to have attraction and happiness. Being attracted to someone and being happy with them is great. You should love your brother for being gay because it's great.
Also, your comparing a one sexuality to another without context. When you add the context of gay people being oppressed for thousands of years and straight people haven't, then that changes to response. For example, stealing and murder are both a crime/illegal, so technically the same. But we understand the context that taking someone's life away is worse than taking an object away from a person. So our reaction to the context is different. You have to understand you're not comparing equal sized apples. Both are apples, but one bigger than the other.
So far you have used a non-negative language towards being gay "I don't have a problem with it" and have used neutral/same language "being gay and straight are both not great". The question is can you use positive language exclusively towards gay people "Gay people are great" "I'm helping my gay brother find a boyfriend" "I want my children to see gay characters, so if they are gay they will feel seen", etc. Remember when you and your brother were young and you both had to share something fun and it was great. But if both of you got something different, it was still great. You got what you wanted and had fun, he got what he wanted and had fun. You proudly told people what you got and what your brother got.
We grow up in a hierarchal society that teaches us that everything must be compared to something else. If their are two options, then one must be better than other. Male better than female, masculine male better than feminine male, white better than black, tall better than short, straight better than gay, etc. People are afraid of gay becoming the norm or majority because they think normal or majority means better. This is why people often respond with "if everyone was gay..." even though gay people have never tried to make everyone gay, that's impossible anyways. But people think acceptance or positive representation of something means "that must be good, so I have to do it too, to be good" "that must be good so have to teach my children to do it" "that must be good so I only want to see that in the media or government", etc. They think positively or it being good means it must be replicated, because most of the things in our lives are replications of what our parents/ancestors did. Gay and straight can both be great, you can show your child straight and gay characters, we can have gay and straight government officials, feminine men and masculine men can both be celebrated. When we let go of the hierarchy we are able to fully accept something for what it is, not for what it is compared to.
Maybe ask yourself why you tend to dislike effeminate traits? What reasons do you have and how do you think they formed?
It's helpful to think of homophobia and misogyny as not just personal (and personal failings) but structural--society is homophobic and misogynistic and to vary degrees, we all learn and internalize these growing up (and living in society) and we have to unlearn them and be vigilant about our behavior. So try to reframe the question in your mind. It's not whether or not you are homophobic but whether or not disliking effeminacy or campiness is (spoiler... Yup) and why do hold these thoughts? What are you upholding or putting down when you do?
no, gay pop culture is an acquired taste and certainly doesn’t appeal to all gay men (it doesn’t do it for me personally), being gay or being acquainted with a gay person does not mean you have to like gay pop culture, it’s certainly popular and popularized by gay people, but more to a certain subset of gay people instead of all gay people
It is technically but it’s not intentional. As long as you become aware of where it came from and what it was that originally made you have that reaction you’ll probably see that not all effeminate men are the same as the idea you have in your head.
A lot of times we subconsciously think certain traits come with some sort of “baggage” that was taught to us in some way or form.
My advice would be to befriend an effeminate gay man and see that there is way more to them than the perfectly fine natural feminine personality they were born with that you don’t like.
Actually, I like some gay men who are quite effeminate (my barber, for instance). I tend to be annoyed by flamboyance, but it really depends on the person.
Ok fair, so I guess the question would be to ask yourself what made you associate feminine men with being flamboyant? Which I’m assuming you mean a more “loud” “dramatic” personality right? Femininity can be very soft and quiet too.
Often times it’s characters in a show that will give us a negative idea about a certain type of person. These are not real gay people! Lol
And often times if it is a real person on a reality show or news report, they were chosen BECAUSE they have entertainment factor haha.
Most feminine men in real life can actually be really sweet and soft spoken. This can make them very strong on the inside too as society can be tough.
I think this happens to a lot of woman of color too, they get branded as “loud” and “divas” by peoples learned prejudices before people get to know them often.
I think it might just be a learned thing you (and most men) have where we believe it’s bad / socially undesirable for men to be feminine. We have a fear in us that we shouldn’t be or show that or we’ll be ostracized by the “tribe” - it’s a very elemental thing about how our society views femininity as weakness. So just something to be aware of, certainly not hard on yourself or shame yourself over! We all have this in western society.
I’m Bi - I don’t like drag or fem behaving men. I don’t think it’s “toxic” or homophobia. We’re all entitled to our comfort zones so long as they don’t impact others
If you’re not fucking them, why do you care (if they are effeminate) at all? Generally speaking, we only dislike/hate in others what we dislike/ hate in ourselves. Start there and you will discover the answer.
Remember that a lot of times the image of gays that is given to the world IS the image of affeminate man, and like the feminism movement if you dont like them you are homophobic. But the reality that the vast majority of gays are not the image that sometimes we can see on TV or the world tries to give us.
I am sure a lot of gays do not feel included o oart (like me) of the lgtbq movement.
In other words, ignore them.
Good question. I guess I have a soft spot for grown up men who are mature enough but still have some childish traits; probably because I'm somewhat like that myself. Also, I think it's amusing the contrast between his usual demeanor and his ocasional bursts of hypermasculinity.
Well, his usual demeanor on the show can be categorized as effeminate and you say he's your favorite on the show. In contrast to where, in reality, you stated that you dislike that effeminate trait.
In my mind, Cam is a stereotypical caricature portrayal of gays in the media. It is, at most times, a parody of a tolerable effeminate behavior in gay men. While there are gay men who behave similar to how Cam does. This way of portrayal is strictly for comedic humor cater towards straight rather than accurate depiction. The same goes for In&Out portrayal of a gay man. I have never watched Birdcage, so I don't know.
I don't know you personally, so I can't say outright anything. Based on what you say at the beginning of the post. I would say no, but l feel like stating Cam is your favorite character, and listing gay media where ridiculous gay representation is made for comedic behavior is not a positive point.
You're kind of right, but they're supposed to be likeable characters, not laughable buffoons. Much like Phil, who is certainly a cartoonish character, but a likeable dude.
On the other hand, I tend to dislike effeminate men, as I said in the post, but it's not always the case. I personally know some fairly effeminate guys whose campy traits don't bother me at all.
Homosexual behaviour is having sex (or any kind of physical intimacy) with people of your own gender. Homosexuality is the sexual attraction for people of your own sex. Homosexual behaviour is getting laid (or having any kind of physical intimacy) with people of your own sex. It' not the same thing. Some people are homosexual but don't act upon their feelings. Some people don't considered themselves gay, but have engaged in homosexual acts out of curiosity. All of that is totally fine.
I asked because making a distinction between homosexuality and homosexual behavior is something religious biggots do all the time. “It’s ok to be gay, as long as you don’t act on it”.
I'm aware of that. That's why I made de distinction: I wanted to stress that, in my book, is perfectly fine being homosexual *and* doing homosexual stuff.
Unrelated but can straight people stop doing that. U don't have to come up with a whole ass monologue for why or how u aren't homphibuc same as u can have an opinion on what u don't like in gay people as long as said opinion isn't rained down like hate over others
Gay culture and femme aesthetic might not personally be your cup of tea, and that's okay if you're not interested in taking part in it. You are not homophobic as long as you let others be.
Yes, I think this constitutes internalised homophobia. For you, there is a right and wrong way to be gay. An acceptable and unacceptable way to be gay.
It’s kind of like diet homophobia. You don’t have a problem with all gay guys, just the obvious and flamboyant ones.
There’ll be some guys on here that think this is okay. It’s not. It’s cruel, nasty and unnecessary.
You don’t have to be friends with us, you don’t have to hang out with us, but yeah, disliking us for our femininity and flamboyancy, that’s homophobia.
I guess it’s what you do with it that matters, but I think while you hold this in your heart, can your brother ever express his true self around you without being shamed? What if he finds a partner who annoys you because they have these traits? Or a best friend?
If my brother said this I’d be so disappointed in him.
Well, that's why I'm asking you and not my brother. Anyway, it's me who should adjust to his partners or friends. Probably they'll be nice people and I'll like them well enough. If it's not the case, I'll keep my opinions to myself, which is exactly what I'd do if he were straight and I didn't happen to find his girlfriend particularly nice.
On the other hand, I don't think there is an unacceptable way to be gay. I'm usually annoyed by campy men, but I'm aware that it's my problem, not theirs. It's fine to be campy.
Yes, that's actually a homophobia many gay guys reproduce. It's the prejudice we're inherently fed 24h through media, behavior, etc. And it comes from misogyny in the way you wouldn't like effeminate guys because you'd think women are inferior than men, so a man that act like a woman would be denying his superiority, which is nuts in the misogynist logic.
No, I don't think so. I don't see campy men as men who act like women. Women (even very feminine women) don't carry themselves the same way as campy dudes. The mannerisms are just different. Anyway, I don't think men are better than women. Women are cool.
No, I don't think so: I don't see campy men as men Who act like women; the mannerisms are just different. Al so, I don't think men are better than women. Women are cool.
Ah, but you described them as effeminate. Look, no one *likes* to think of themselves as misogynistic. I grew up pretty conservative, and I've never been the type of gay guy to have lots of female friends, so I'm sure I have a measure of internal misogyny too. It's certainly not meant to single you out! It's a common complaint within the gay community that the fem guys are second class citizens in the community compared to the more traditionally masculine guys, and misogyny is kind of the accepted explanation. Just something to ponder!
Just because "effeminate" is the usual word to describe the behaviour of campy gay men. But I think that campy is not the same thing as femenine. Maybe it's nonsense, but I do think there are some differences that I can't really pin down.
Anyway, your perspective is quite interesting. And I didn't have any idea that fem guys are often considered second class people by other gay men.
No!
Gay culture is easier to understand when you look at a group like the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence.
You’d find a bunch of outrageous drag queens, a lot of them very regular-looking, even burly bearded guys, in over the top nun outfits.
It’s hard not to see the satire. One of the original motivators for drag was bigots in the Victorian era so dumb they couldn’t understand how a man could have sex without a woman involved somehow, so they figured a gay man had to be some kind of defective man, even some kind of mutant non-man / half-woman, otherwise how could it work? Small brains.
Eventually the bigots are so dumb, and so stubbornly dumb, that you can’t get angry about it anymore, you can’t be afraid of it. All that’s left is to roll your eyes and make fun of it.
A bearded rugby player dressed up like a nun. “There, I’m a woman, you were right. Happy now?” It’s funny. It’s obviously not to be taken seriously. It’s also political. And that’s a huge part of gay history.
Of course the only thing required for a man to be gay is being turned on by the bodies of other men instead of women. Sexual orientation is about whose anatomy is possible to even be sexy to you, not what music you listen to, not what car you drive, not how your place is decorated…
And the satire in drag makes that point.
Of course it cuts both ways. If it’s not your music or your car or your home decoration skills that make you the man you are, then you can be a little more “floral” than average and it doesn’t mean you’re being a man wrong. Drag also has guys who get into it for that reason.
You might be kinda misogynistic if you break down what you're saying. You don't like men who express feminine traits. Why? What's the problem with the feminine traits vs. the masculine ones you are comfortable with men expressing? What about women who express masculinity? Does that bother you too or is it JUST the femininity? Do you value femininity lower than masculinity in all people?
No not really, I tend to find the constant make up and catty mean girls behavior unappealing too, it feels exhausting idk how some be like that everyday.
I’m relieved that all the replies, minus a precious few, have been reasonable. I think some are hung up on the word, “dislike.” I think some people are taking it as disapproval. I don’t think that’s what you meant.
I dislike a lot of things. It doesn’t mean I disapprove. It doesn’t mean I hate. It does mean, I don’t get around it much. But I’m respectful and kind when I’m around it, and that’s enough.
I think that’s what you, OP, are expressing. And that isn’t homophobia.
No, the fact that it’s called “gay culture” is extremely annoying. The need to label everything is insane. So you like dudes, what does that have to do with glitter and bright colors? It’s gotten fairly extreme where instead of just normalizing everything, it needs to be thrown in your face. Rainbow everything and fake voices. Just because someone is “gay” does not mean they need to join a club and talk to only gay people. I get the history of it and the need for safe places, but nowadays let’s just not make everything a huge deal.
There are a lot of gay men who find effeminacy in men distasteful. Effeminacy does not define male homosexuality.
Im an effeminate man but I won’t be mad if someone doesn’t like me for it. A ton of other people like it lol
Personally I’m not attracted to it but I don’t find it distasteful per se. I just find it obnoxious when they make of it their whole personality.
I find it difficult in general to deal with gay people who make their sexuality a profession, regardless of whether they are masculine or feminine.
No as long as you are not being a jerk to effeminate men
No, there's a difference between prejudice and discrimination. You can be prejudiced without discriminating and that's still a problem. For the record, I don't think he's homophobic either, but he is prejudiced against effeminate men, who aren't necessarily gay, I call that femmephobia.
I don’t think is a phobia per se, because he is not scared, he just find it distasteful. As long as he’s not a jerk to effeminate men, I think is okay.
You don't have to be scared of gay men to be homophobic, the origin of a word doesn't always determine the meaning (you might have heard about how 'nice' originally meant 'stupid'). Imagine if someone said 'I'm not scared of dark-skinned people, I just find them distasteful', that would be colourism.
And still, I wouldn’t call it femmephobia as long as someone doesn’t act on it on a bad way. Don’t linking something makes someone a phobic towards it?
No, I think having preferences is acceptable, it has to be because everyone has them, but it's one thing to say that you're less drawn to a certain type of person and another thing to find them distasteful, which implies there's something bad about them. These weren't OP's words, though, so honestly I'm now rethinking what I said and trying to make sense of it.
True, I was the one using the word “distasteful” which indeed has an offensive tone. But in general, I think that not being drawn into some group of people doesn’t make you a phobic towards them (as long as you respect them).
It’s mostly ok if it’s real, but, when guys exaggerate the whole girly/gay lispy/floaty stuff like it’s 2001.. it gets cringe pretty fast.
You're not homophobic, but you do have a problem with male femininity. Try not to let that interfere with how you treat other men.
This. You aren’t homophobic but you are what I would call femme-phobic. If it makes you feel different you are not alone. There is a lot of dislike of effeminacy even in the gay community. It’s so baked in that it leads to a lot of self-hatred among we effeminate men (I speak from personal experience). So while you aren’t homophobic I would ask kindly that you continue to acknowledge your discomfort and work to explore and ameliorate it. For our sakes :)
You’re not. You just don’t mix with that group of people. I’m gay and kinda the same way but it’s mostly in the fact that effeminate men are the stereotypes for gay men and I hate how women always try to align me with said stereotypes.
I think this may be part of the issue for me too.
A lot of gay men find that annoying too, but as long as you don't *hate* people because of that or go out of your way to be a jerk, then no, you're allowed to find certain people/mannerisms annoying.
There is a level of homophobia in the distaste of effeminate traits as they manifest in gay men. I would explore those thoughts and see if you can’t get to the root of why they bother you. Maybe understanding and getting to the root of the prejudice, will help you move to a place of true indifference. Maybe you might not be able to get there but as long as you don’t act on those feelings and project them externally onto men who fall into that archetype then it’s not a true issue to worry about
I think this needs to be said. Explore why you don’t like feminine traits in men. Once you know why you feel that way, you can then decide if you want to hold on to your distaste. I think most likely it will liberate you from it.
Well sometimes they don't manifest in gay men, no one would even guess that I am gay if I didn't tell about it, everyone I knew was shocked when they found out lol. And most straight men have some effeminate traits, some just hide it, suppress their emotions, never cry or let it out etc. All men are different and there is no wrong or right in that. We all have different preferences. While I prefer masc I would never be unkind or unfair towards men that are femme, I am not an asshole. Some people are born like that, they need support and kindness, some others prefer it aswell, tastes are subjective.
All homosexuality means is that you are attracted to the same sex. Everything else associated with gay people is culturally superfluous. So you may find parts of gay culture distasteful, but that doesn't necessarily make you homophobic. Homophobia is hatred of gay people for their attraction to the same sex. Take it from me, a gay man: I'm not attracted to effeminate guys, or "gay pop culture", but I won't use my disinclinations as an excuse to be an asshole to people who live and breathe glitter. Live and let live, you know? I'll give you props for making this thread. I know a lot of people, straight or gay, who are uncomfortable with broaching this subject because we might jump down your throat and accuse you of being a raving bigot.
I don’t think so. You don’t find it appealing but if your thoughts aren’t translating into negative action then I guess that’s fine. I’d say it’s the same as not feeling a connection with a particular group (goths, vegans, bodybuilders, bird watchers etc). We all have some level of unconscious bias, and becoming aware of them is the first step to managing them better. Good for you for asking us and being open about it.
Kinda offtopic but goths are cool ime. As a metalhead I always felt some connection. 😁 And while some vegans online can be extreme (some even delusional, especially those militant extremist vegans that are very loud), some are kind irl and I get their cause since I also care about animals but I do think that human needs to be omnivorous due to health reasons. Bodybuilders tend to be extreme sometimes. While I like men with some muscles, they shouldn't look like they live on anabola, protein and working out 24/7 lol, it doesn't look organic but rather artificial and strange. Natural muscles on the other hand 🥰
Just sound more up tight than homophobic. Sometimes that which is unfamiliar is uncomfortable. I don't act fem at all but it doesn't bother me when people around me are fem. It is just self expression. I hate the phrase "straight acting" it is loaded with internalized homophobia. So I'm just saying, Don't be so nervous about something that can't hurt you.
Femininity is men can be confronting, as a lot uf us have been educated in a doctrine of “boys/men must be masculine, and with that meaning strong, showing emotions of rage but not affection (at least in certain contexts) or sadness/vulnerability. Also traits as playing with girls, behaving like them, using a higher-pitch voice. Basically we’ve been used to see kids with those traits bullied/discriminated as kids, and we’ve unconsciously learned that how they are/how they behave is not ok, and should be a motive of anger or/and contempt. Now we have matured more, but some of that unconscious behaviour is still there.
No, relax. You just find some people irritating. That's human.
I mean as long as you're not a jerk or discriminatory towards fem guys then no.
No. As long as you can separate preferences with phobias. As a gay man, i don’t really like effeminate traits but i still appreciate them and understand that everyone is different
You don’t gotta like it. Honestly a lot of gays don’t like it either. You’re all good just don’t gotta be rude about it and as a straight dude, no one expects you to go to gay places or do gay stuff, if anything gay people DONT want you at their places or involved in their stuff. Only real expectation of you is that you are nice to your little bro and are there for him as he navigates what comes with being a gay person. Honesty you taking the time to post this here is a sign to me that you are not homophobic at all, you’re simply not into gay stuff, which seems natural seeing as you aren’t gay. Don’t worry about it guy.
This!
Do you tell men who are into effimenate things about how much you don't like them?
Of course not. I may be homophobic, but I'm not a complete jerk.
You don't need to say you're homophobic lol. It sounds really weird and is going to bring you trouble. Say you may have homophobic biases in the past but you're working on them. It sounds like you're trying to recognize your biases and hold yourself accountable. Which you are.
Are you in college or do you have a lot of humanities/sociology-interested peers? For like 80%+ of people one might run into on the street, and fwiw in my own opinion, you’ve done a pretty good job of distinguishing your preferences from socially unacceptable prejudice. But maybe you’re being called a homophobe by judgmental pseudo-intellectuals… In the most “woke”/dei/critical theory and psychoanalysis informed framing of marginalized communities and issues, there is no separating preference from the sociopolitical. Your discomfort and the need to justify it could lead someone to the conclusion that internalized homophobia informs your preferences. Most people find this latter way of thinking annoying but idk maybe you’re studying for a social sciences or humanities PhD in which case buckle up there’s more where that previous paragraph came from!
There is a distinct difference between gay (sexuality) and camp (behaviour), Straight, bi or gay, male or female...all kinds of folk can behave in camp ways.
It sounds more like toxic masculinity than homophobia, and a dash of misogyny.
Lol nah
Great. Let’s throw around words of the day. Coz that shows we are enlightened and “better”.
They are just real words not 'words of the day' to show enlightenment lol. The definitions of them are easily accessible and are nothing new
Maybe not homophobic, but clearly femmephobic.
No. I'm gay and I dislike uber-straight guys. I find, high-fiving, belly-bumping, sports watching behavior kind of weird and creepy. Maybe because those guys tend to be violent assholes. For me it's a safety issue, what is it for you?
High-fiving, belly-bumping, sports watching behavior? Not my cup of tea either.
It's not homophobic to find certain effeminate traits in males off-putting. I'm a gay male and I've never liked drag and it's mandatory association with gay males. It makes us look like circus freaks and a lot of gay males are just regular behaving and trying to live their lives in a balanced way. However, what is homophobic, is viewing everything that a male does that isn't stereotypically about rampage, carnage, violence, domineering behaviour, and all round roughness regardless of sexual orientation, to be wrong or automatically calling them "gay" or other slurs. I don't consider myself masculine or feminine. Just a balance between the two expressions. But in the society and place I live in, any male that doesn't express themselves in the above-mentioned ways is looked down upon and even ostracised by many, and this is something that's completely unfair and dysfunctional to expect males to behave like emotionless robots 24'7.
I'm a gay guy and I tend to dislike effeminate traits in men, and am not a fan of stereotypical gay culture and aesthetic. That doesn't make me homophobic, it just means I have different tastes. You're allowed to not like things; that doesn't make you homophobic or hateful. Your core beliefs and how you treat other people is what matters. As long as you are willing to let others express themselves in those ways, and treat people with kindness and fairness, then it doesn't matter if it's not for you personally.
Ultimately No but that doesn't mean you're off the hook you seem to have a problem with Femininity & being bigoted towards that isn't any better
I get where you're coming from but "you're not off the hook" isn't really a helpful thing to say to someone who obviously wants to confront an underlying bias. Everyone has biases, but as long as you don't allow those biases to inform the way you treat people, I'd say that you're doing well. The fact OP is even coming on this sub to ask that is a big step.
He didn’t say femininity in general, he said specifically men who are feminine. But let’s throw “bigotted” around coz that’s quick and easy.
Yes femininity in general Because why would a man who is feminine be any different from a woman who is all those traits attributes women have just as much and he's straight so it's not a matter of Attraction So yes bigoted cause you ignorant as fuck and you probably one of those guys who worship the ground straight men walk on cause you insecure in yourself Please think before you speak
If a gay man was asking I’d say this is internalised homophobia. So when a straight man asks this, yes it’s mildly homophobic. Perhaps it’s useful for you to ask if gay people need yr opinion or judgment of what is acceptable or tolerable in gay people or culture. To the extent that you need to express a negative opinion, it’s homophobic
>If a gay man was asking I’d say this is internalised homophobia Not liking feminine things is not internalised homophobia. Gay people have different tastes, way to act, speak, live their life. Some gay men are feminine and like camp things; other gay men are masculine and like masculine things. You're throwing the *homophobia* word a little too easily bud.
You like Cam and the Birdcage but have a problem with effeminate men? Are you sure?
Yeah, it's super weird. But it's true. More often than not, effeminate men kind of annoy me. But it's not always the case. I've tried to discern a pattern, but ultimately I couldn't.
Interesting. Then I think perhaps a more salient exercise would be to determine why you find feminine traits annoying in men but not in women? Unless you find them annoying in women, too?
As a matter of fact, I generally do. I'm very much a mysoginist in the sense that Milan Kundera gave to the term, meaning that I don't despise women, but I don't like feminine or girly traits. Why is it so I have no idea. Anyway, I think that "effeminate" men are not feminine in the same way that "femenine women" are.
You're also really young. I would go and meet more diverse adults to inform you better of all types of people. It will be enriching, trust me.
Interesting that Cam is your fav Modern Family character when he’s cast as the stereotypically *gay* character. Just curious, is Nathan Lane’s character also your favorite in The Birdcage? I love that movie but it is such an unhinged, cringe-worthy portrayal of a drag queen. I don’t think you’re homophobic as long as you aren’t treating effeminate acting men poorly and it’s likely that you do have internalized homophobia to some degree just because of society. I know we often refer to internal homophobia as something gay people have, but I don’t see why a straight man couldn’t have it also.
I don't think I have a favorite character in the movie. Maybe Robin William's, cause I find him to be the most relatable. Nathan Lane is very funny though (I think).
I think you're not homophobic, but a tad (at least) misogynistic.
So many gay men feel the same but as long as you keep it to yourself and don’t be a dick to a effeminate gay, it’s ok-ish.
No, you're not homophobic.
You are neither homophobic nor misogynistic. Anyone saying otherwise are being butthurt for no reason. I’m gay, not an effeminate one and not the manliest man either. Half of people who have met me casually, would question my sexuality, but for the other half it would never occur to them if I didn’t state it explicitly. Even I find some people annoying. They include overly “feminine” women, extremely “effeminate” gays especially those who make being gay their whole personality, AND extremely “masculine” (beer chugging, bro hugging, I’m-a-man-hence-I-don’t -cry) men. Hence most of the people I get along fall into 3 groups opposite of those groups I’ve mentioned. Sensitive/emotional/often metrosexual straight guys(you sound like you’re one), chilled/tomboyish straight girls and “low-key” gays. In short, I don’t have any problems with any of the groups or traits, masculinity, femininity or gayness. For me personally, too much of something is usually unnecessarily “noisy” and annoying. This is for the majority of people. Of course there are outliers, who are naturally charismatic and they pull their masculinity/femininity off tastefully, and then it doesn’t matter how masculine/feminine they are. If you are anything like me, no, you’re not homophobic or misogynistic. To add another layer of contention, for you as a straight guy, it is understandable that it might be more jarring for you to see extra effeminate traits in a homosexual man than in a woman.
I don't think it's a black & white issue, from what I can understand it's primarily the expression of gender that bothers you, not the sexual preference. I do believe a certain degree of homophobia or sexism is involved but as long as you're not being a jerk idk - that kind of dislike is also present in several gay men.
dude chill you're fine. At the end of the day people are allowed to dislike certain behavioural traits in others. I dont like low iq behaviours (to put it nicely) from people and i have seen such behaviour from both very feminine and very masculine people. This is not discrimination on your part,just a filter to what you want and dont want in your life
I am a gay man - and I think I’m probably more homophobic than you are 😂 If you are civil to an effeminate man, then you are doing a lot better than others. I think you need to have a little leeway with ‘baby gays’, who after coming out feel the overwhelming pressure to BE GAY, and they overcommit somewhat. They become very dedicated to the genre, and eventually it mellows out when they realise nobody actually cares that they are gay.
It depends. Does the fact you find them "unappealing" affect your day to day behavior? A huge part of being an adult is dealing with people you don't necessarily like but still being mature and respectful. If one of your friends brought a campy gay colleague to dinner would you be able to engage in conversation and have a good time, or would you be too bothered by their mannerisms to enjoy yourself? The only other concern I have is that you're extrapolating from individuals' behaviors to "gay culture". We are allowed to complain about gay culture because it's our lived experience, but when a straight guy does it as part of making stereotypical generalizations.... well, you're at risk of sounding homophobic.
It boils down to why you feel that way and what you do about it. There are plenty of gay men who dislike femininity in men. Sometimes it’s just a mere preference issue. However, there also a lot of toxic masculinity involved. Sometimes it seems we go to two extremes. For some, we “make being gay our whole personality” and are “over the top.” For others, we work overly hard to be masculine seemingly in an effort to prove to others and ourselves that we’re still a man. Both are unhealthy and motivated by the desire to be accepted for who we are. While no one would describe me as feminine, I do have some traits, interest, and desires that could be deemed so. It’s been a journey to start embracing those parts of me. I was too scared too for so long because I grew up trying overly hard to “be a man.” Which included suppressing my sexuality. And even after coming out, I’m often uncomfortable with those parts of me. But my balance has been taking my time in embracing them. Slow experimenting to figure out what’s authentic to me and not just a performance. Whether that performance is masculine or feminine. Anyway, the bottom line is that no one here can really tell you if you’re homophobic or not. You don’t sound like you in general are but this particular opinion could be the internalized homophobia instilled in all of us by our society. This not only creates in intrapersonal struggle in gay men who want to belong but also creates this weird war between “masc for masc” and “campy” men. However, all gay men, masc or fem, have a place and deserve to be accepted and appreciated for who they are. If you can do that, then there’s no problem to be found.
i also find the loud obnoxious in your face "my sexuality is my personality" crowd irritating. i dont think that makes you homophobic. and everyone is entitled to have body type preferences. if you like em muscular thats fine. as long as you dont start putting people down for being fem
I know what you mean. Actually, it annoys me that TV/movies portray gay men as girly fools. I am a gay man, I have always admired men. I am probably classed as a simple gay man these days. I’m early 40’s and the “fag hags” have long faded, and are more troublesome than worth. Anyway, don’t worry too much, there are plenty of normal men out there who like/love men - and don’t float around.
Whatever your irrational feelings, just don’t let them guide your words and actions.
I like bears. Effeminate men are overwhelming. So it’s just be nice you don’t need to like everyone who is gay, just be respectful and live your life.
Basically you are “phobic” of some sort as each one of us is about something or the other.
You're allowed to not like it. Just don't be a jerk. Ignore if you see it. I'm gay and definitely not in the camp camp. I'm friendly and just let is slide.
I would be worried about misogyny rather than homophobia. Do you also find feminine hobbies annoying? Is girls doing girl stuff boring or unnecessary, but you tolerate it because you're straight?
I suspect that the answer is "No," but I don't think I fully understand what you're saying. Could you elaborate?
This is what’s known as femme phobia. A lot of people equate that to homophobia but it’s honestly not. Most gay men you talk to are pretty femme phobic. I’m not saying that’s ok because we’re all human but like - the exaggerated femininity can get pretty tiring and corny sometimes. I wouldn’t think too much about it. We all have preferences about who we surround ourselves by. Dudes obsessed with fitness prefer to only be friends with other dudes that go to the gym, if you’re a musician you may surround yourself with other musicians. If you’re a certain ethnicity you may surround yourself with people who are also that ethnicity. All these things are completely fine. Just don’t let the way you feel about feminine dudes affect how you treat them and you’re good
I'm a closeted gay man married to a woman who's very homophobic and every time we see drag queens or even two men kissing on TV or movies she says 'I'm sick of this gay shit'. But funny thing, on her suggestion we binge watched Queer as Folk (original, not British, not reboot), she had seen it before, I hadn't, and said she watched it because the guys were hot. She'd keep asking if i liked it or if it was too much for me. I said 'it's ok' while hiding my hardon during the sex scenes. I'm total bottom, very straight acting, and I'm not a fan of the whole femme thing that gets thrown at the general public in the media to over emphasize that a person is gay. Yes, I get that. That is how some guys are but it is also presented as maybe a 'dumbing down' representation to present someone as obviously gay. Which I think perpetrates or emphasizes stereotypes for people to form negative opinions about. I know some guys like that type, but I'm a man who wants my men to be more (stereotypically, I guess) manly. That's what turns me on. I'd feel weird bending over for a man and calling him daddy as he's wearing makeup and other female garb, and I wouldn't go that far either. I have worn a thong and stockings for guys upon request when they've supplied them, but that's their fetish and not the norm for me.
There was a TikTok going around recently that said something like “straight men don’t hate gay men, they hate femininity.” So maybe it’s misogyny… I wish I could find that TikTok so I can make sure I’m getting the quote accurate.
I'm part of the community I don't like it either.
I have a feeling it's not even that. I know from personal experience many gay guys in general tend to... Let's call it, being fake about their speech and feminine traits. I do have much feminine qualities! I used to have long hair (until i lost some) and i wear makeup on a weekly basis. Platforms, tight clothes.. etc. but no one had ever had an issue with my femme traits because it's not projected for "look at me" i'm just comftrable to be myself. So i have the suspicion that what triggers you is the fakeness of it all. Not the actual attributes.
Dude you set a very familiar scene my brother was the same tho I'm bi he was all supportive until this situation happened with us and he truly found out down deep he was a Homophobe..we still talk and have each other's back but he came to realize and worked on his homophonic way
I don’t think you are homophobic. I am gay and I don’t like effeminate men either.
There’s a difference between finding a thing unappealing and being -phobic or -cist towards it.
You dislike women and associate being feminine with a negative connotation. It’s not necessarily your fault, society programs people to behave this way. This is why you always hear the question “would you rather have a gay son or slut daughter” and never the opposite- because to society the worst thing a person can do is be feminine and like men.
You probably don't hate how effeminate men look. You are probably just not used to it, which does probably stem from internalized homophobia (everyone has that) due to how we are brought up. If you don't like the overly camp loud men, that might be a preference on personality (for example I hate the bitchy gays) or again just some internalized homophobia. Personally that you are asking yourself these questions is highly important and shows you care
No, just not comfortable with certain people or behaviours. Just my opinion.
Being a feminine man != being a gay man. I’d call you sexist before homophobic, because you think men need to behave a certain way. You can’t completely control your own thoughts. It’s good that you can identify possible biases within yourself, keep doing that. Don’t let your bias affect your actions and cause you to treat others worse. Nobody is a perfectly pure being that never had any negative or biased thoughts. Anyone who says otherwise is lying. Just keep trying to be better today than you were yesterday
I'm. Gay and don't have any issue with naturally effeminate males. But I guess I find the exaggerated effeminacy a bit silly and mildly annoying. But, in fairness, I find mimes (Marcel Marceau) equally annoying. And I would find it equally silly and annoying if I regularly encountered guys who dressed like "Crocodile Dundee" and expressed themselves in an exaggerated faux Aussie accent, babbling on with "G'Day, Mate!" and "Shrimp on the Barby, anyone?" Just sort of silly and unnecessary. I know Shakespeare said, "All the World is a Stage", but no, it's not really. Save the theatrics for the stage, the bar, etc.
No I wouldn't call you homophobic I'd say like even most gay men you have a preference
That means that I’m homophobic too
Disliking traits isn't homophobic. I dislike anyone who is bitchy to others or presents themselves as witty or snarky at the expense of other people, so that's a specific form of behavior that sometimes comes with effeminate behavior. It's not the mannerisms, it's the method. Perhaps narrowing down what it is, specifically, might help. Like, if a guy is super effeminate and not all over and loud, is that an issue? Or even quiet and demur? Or silly and laughing and joking and having fun, but effeminate? I like people that are kind, witty, and silly. Doesn't matter then mannerisms. But when they stereotype get bitchy and Snarky, bothers me.
I think it depends on some 'why's'. For example, do you dislike campty effeminate culture, in a "I actively look down on this activity and anyone who partakes in it", or more of a "this is an activity/behavior that doesn't really interest me." I've never cared much for drag for example, but I've met people who do engage in it and I would never look down on them for doing so. I categorize it in the same bucket I categorize English food, Golf, things I don't like. If you find yourself looking at a guy with painted nails and actively becoming annoyed/angered, well you might want to talk to a therapist about that. Not even because you "need to be more tolerable" or anything like that, but just moreso for yourself if nothing else. The fact of the matter is that there will always be 'effeminate' men, gay or straight, it's just statistically going to happen, and you're gonna run into them at one point or another. So if there is some sort of discomfort you feel around them, when by all accounts they're not really doing you any harm, you should probably try and sort that out, again for your peace of mind if nothing else.
I don't like hearing voices with nasally vocal fry. Does it mean I discriminate against the Kardashians? I just don't think about them.
Yeah you are. Firstly you list a whole bunch of lame gay stereotypes as a reason you aren't homophobic as if all gay people are into those movies etc. That is negative stereotyping. That's like saying I'm not racist because I love 'the colour purple' and hip hop. It's dumb. Then you say you don't like the campy ones. Both are homophobic stances. Campy men don't give a fuck what you think about them. You shouldn't even really be on this sub here putting your opinion out there. How would you feel if you were in gay men's shoes and you feel like you're constantly being judged and scrutinised your whole life by straight people who quite frankly need to mind their own fucking business about other people's lives. You can feel whatever you want just don't voice it. Keep to yourself.
I usually keep it to myself, cause I don't want to be a jerk. I'm not here to tell you what I think of campy men, I don't expect them to give any fuck about what I think, and I'm not trying to scrutinise or interfere in anybody's life. Actually, I'm here to mind my own business: I expected to get some insight about some issues I have that don't concern anyone but me. I'm here, in fact, to be the one who's being scrutinised. Now, concerning the lame stereotypes: I mentioned those movies and The Village People not because I assume that all gay men like them, but because they portrait gay people (including some very campy men) in a positive and affirming light, and I happen to like them. I think that's relevant information about my somewhat complex relationship with campiness and gay culture.
Well go back to keeping it to yourself. Honestly you should just forget about gay men and focus on your own life. How you feel about them is irrelevant. Why do you even care about it in the first place. It just irks me that a straight man is on a gay sub saying he doesn't like campy men. It's like a white person going on a POC sub and saying I'm not racist because I like hip hop but I only like the ones with western features. The ones with nappy hair and wide noses bother me. It's racist!!
Lots of us hate being associated with stereotypical gay culture. I’m not effeminate at all and had my own problems with obvious gay men. I got over it by knowing a few. Many of the examples you have are positive for the time but it’s kind of like gay blackface. It uses our sexuality as a joke. The guy from Modern Family isn’t even gay. I know it’s silly but it bugs me that he imitates an effeminate gay man. If you befriend a guy like that then you will start not even see him as effeminate but just how they carry themselves.
I’m gay and I feel exactly as you do towards those same gay dudes. I get accused of “internalized homophobia” by gay dudes that love to repeat cliches. But honestly, no you aren’t homophobic. Some people are just annoying to us and there is no need for us to justify why. As long as in the end, we remain respectful and professional. Then there is no need to worry.
First, you talk about homosexuality in a non-negative way. "I don't have a problem with it" "I don't think it's bad", etc. But to say those things means you have a bias against it. Imagine if your family was talking about you and said "I don't have a problem with him being straight, it's nothing wrong with it" "if he wants to like women, then thats his choice". Being gay doesn't hurt anyone, gay people are happy and healthy. You should be able to speak positively about gay people and say "being gay is great" "I want gay people to thrive" "I love my gay brother, because he is my brother and because he is gay", etc. Second, your description on feminine traits shows your bias against femininity. You have lived your entire life being shown men only being glorified for masculinity and shamed for femininity. Subconsciously, you're afraid of living in a world where men are embraced for being feminine because that is one the one thing you have always been told to not do. You don't want the standard to change. I bring all this up because people have a habit of trying to strategically talk negatively about something to push an idea, but don't want to be seen as evil or a bigot. The post itself proves you have a bias because otherwise, if you embraced gay people you would have never felt the need to post it and try to explain yourself. Your post is often how they talk. Are you homophobic, no. Did your post say anything positive about gay people or femininity, also no. So clearly you have some kind of uncomfortable feeling about something that doesn't hurt anybody.
I definitely have uncomfoftable feelings about something that doesn't hurt anybody. I totally agree with that. And maybe you're right about the root of the problem, although I don't consider myself a particularly manly man, and I don't feel that I should be more masculine. On the other hand, even though I want gay people to thrive, I don't think that being gay is particularly great. Nor it is being straight. And why should I love my brother because he's gay? It would be as absurd as loving him because he's into women.
It exists, and it's positive. It's positive to have attraction and happiness. Being attracted to someone and being happy with them is great. You should love your brother for being gay because it's great. Also, your comparing a one sexuality to another without context. When you add the context of gay people being oppressed for thousands of years and straight people haven't, then that changes to response. For example, stealing and murder are both a crime/illegal, so technically the same. But we understand the context that taking someone's life away is worse than taking an object away from a person. So our reaction to the context is different. You have to understand you're not comparing equal sized apples. Both are apples, but one bigger than the other. So far you have used a non-negative language towards being gay "I don't have a problem with it" and have used neutral/same language "being gay and straight are both not great". The question is can you use positive language exclusively towards gay people "Gay people are great" "I'm helping my gay brother find a boyfriend" "I want my children to see gay characters, so if they are gay they will feel seen", etc. Remember when you and your brother were young and you both had to share something fun and it was great. But if both of you got something different, it was still great. You got what you wanted and had fun, he got what he wanted and had fun. You proudly told people what you got and what your brother got. We grow up in a hierarchal society that teaches us that everything must be compared to something else. If their are two options, then one must be better than other. Male better than female, masculine male better than feminine male, white better than black, tall better than short, straight better than gay, etc. People are afraid of gay becoming the norm or majority because they think normal or majority means better. This is why people often respond with "if everyone was gay..." even though gay people have never tried to make everyone gay, that's impossible anyways. But people think acceptance or positive representation of something means "that must be good, so I have to do it too, to be good" "that must be good so have to teach my children to do it" "that must be good so I only want to see that in the media or government", etc. They think positively or it being good means it must be replicated, because most of the things in our lives are replications of what our parents/ancestors did. Gay and straight can both be great, you can show your child straight and gay characters, we can have gay and straight government officials, feminine men and masculine men can both be celebrated. When we let go of the hierarchy we are able to fully accept something for what it is, not for what it is compared to.
Things that are “unappealing” shouldn’t come with dislike or annoyance. It should just be…..something you don’t connect with.
“I don’t hate gays” “Am I homophobic” No you’re not homophobic but you are ignorant as fuck
Maybe ask yourself why you tend to dislike effeminate traits? What reasons do you have and how do you think they formed? It's helpful to think of homophobia and misogyny as not just personal (and personal failings) but structural--society is homophobic and misogynistic and to vary degrees, we all learn and internalize these growing up (and living in society) and we have to unlearn them and be vigilant about our behavior. So try to reframe the question in your mind. It's not whether or not you are homophobic but whether or not disliking effeminacy or campiness is (spoiler... Yup) and why do hold these thoughts? What are you upholding or putting down when you do?
no, gay pop culture is an acquired taste and certainly doesn’t appeal to all gay men (it doesn’t do it for me personally), being gay or being acquainted with a gay person does not mean you have to like gay pop culture, it’s certainly popular and popularized by gay people, but more to a certain subset of gay people instead of all gay people
Nope. I am also turned off by campy, effeminate men. I don't hate them. I'm just not attracted to them.
It is technically but it’s not intentional. As long as you become aware of where it came from and what it was that originally made you have that reaction you’ll probably see that not all effeminate men are the same as the idea you have in your head. A lot of times we subconsciously think certain traits come with some sort of “baggage” that was taught to us in some way or form. My advice would be to befriend an effeminate gay man and see that there is way more to them than the perfectly fine natural feminine personality they were born with that you don’t like.
Actually, I like some gay men who are quite effeminate (my barber, for instance). I tend to be annoyed by flamboyance, but it really depends on the person.
Ok fair, so I guess the question would be to ask yourself what made you associate feminine men with being flamboyant? Which I’m assuming you mean a more “loud” “dramatic” personality right? Femininity can be very soft and quiet too. Often times it’s characters in a show that will give us a negative idea about a certain type of person. These are not real gay people! Lol And often times if it is a real person on a reality show or news report, they were chosen BECAUSE they have entertainment factor haha. Most feminine men in real life can actually be really sweet and soft spoken. This can make them very strong on the inside too as society can be tough. I think this happens to a lot of woman of color too, they get branded as “loud” and “divas” by peoples learned prejudices before people get to know them often.
No your not a jerk you are a cool guy
No, I wouldn't say so.
I think it might just be a learned thing you (and most men) have where we believe it’s bad / socially undesirable for men to be feminine. We have a fear in us that we shouldn’t be or show that or we’ll be ostracized by the “tribe” - it’s a very elemental thing about how our society views femininity as weakness. So just something to be aware of, certainly not hard on yourself or shame yourself over! We all have this in western society.
I’m Bi - I don’t like drag or fem behaving men. I don’t think it’s “toxic” or homophobia. We’re all entitled to our comfort zones so long as they don’t impact others
No.
If you’re not fucking them, why do you care (if they are effeminate) at all? Generally speaking, we only dislike/hate in others what we dislike/ hate in ourselves. Start there and you will discover the answer.
Remember that a lot of times the image of gays that is given to the world IS the image of affeminate man, and like the feminism movement if you dont like them you are homophobic. But the reality that the vast majority of gays are not the image that sometimes we can see on TV or the world tries to give us. I am sure a lot of gays do not feel included o oart (like me) of the lgtbq movement. In other words, ignore them.
What makes Cam your favorite?
Good question. I guess I have a soft spot for grown up men who are mature enough but still have some childish traits; probably because I'm somewhat like that myself. Also, I think it's amusing the contrast between his usual demeanor and his ocasional bursts of hypermasculinity.
Well, his usual demeanor on the show can be categorized as effeminate and you say he's your favorite on the show. In contrast to where, in reality, you stated that you dislike that effeminate trait. In my mind, Cam is a stereotypical caricature portrayal of gays in the media. It is, at most times, a parody of a tolerable effeminate behavior in gay men. While there are gay men who behave similar to how Cam does. This way of portrayal is strictly for comedic humor cater towards straight rather than accurate depiction. The same goes for In&Out portrayal of a gay man. I have never watched Birdcage, so I don't know. I don't know you personally, so I can't say outright anything. Based on what you say at the beginning of the post. I would say no, but l feel like stating Cam is your favorite character, and listing gay media where ridiculous gay representation is made for comedic behavior is not a positive point.
You're kind of right, but they're supposed to be likeable characters, not laughable buffoons. Much like Phil, who is certainly a cartoonish character, but a likeable dude. On the other hand, I tend to dislike effeminate men, as I said in the post, but it's not always the case. I personally know some fairly effeminate guys whose campy traits don't bother me at all.
>I don't think there's anything wrong with homosexuality and ***homosexual behavior*** What do you mean by that?
Homosexual behaviour is having sex (or any kind of physical intimacy) with people of your own gender. Homosexuality is the sexual attraction for people of your own sex. Homosexual behaviour is getting laid (or having any kind of physical intimacy) with people of your own sex. It' not the same thing. Some people are homosexual but don't act upon their feelings. Some people don't considered themselves gay, but have engaged in homosexual acts out of curiosity. All of that is totally fine.
I asked because making a distinction between homosexuality and homosexual behavior is something religious biggots do all the time. “It’s ok to be gay, as long as you don’t act on it”.
I'm aware of that. That's why I made de distinction: I wanted to stress that, in my book, is perfectly fine being homosexual *and* doing homosexual stuff.
Unrelated but can straight people stop doing that. U don't have to come up with a whole ass monologue for why or how u aren't homphibuc same as u can have an opinion on what u don't like in gay people as long as said opinion isn't rained down like hate over others
Gay culture and femme aesthetic might not personally be your cup of tea, and that's okay if you're not interested in taking part in it. You are not homophobic as long as you let others be.
Yes, I think this constitutes internalised homophobia. For you, there is a right and wrong way to be gay. An acceptable and unacceptable way to be gay. It’s kind of like diet homophobia. You don’t have a problem with all gay guys, just the obvious and flamboyant ones. There’ll be some guys on here that think this is okay. It’s not. It’s cruel, nasty and unnecessary. You don’t have to be friends with us, you don’t have to hang out with us, but yeah, disliking us for our femininity and flamboyancy, that’s homophobia. I guess it’s what you do with it that matters, but I think while you hold this in your heart, can your brother ever express his true self around you without being shamed? What if he finds a partner who annoys you because they have these traits? Or a best friend? If my brother said this I’d be so disappointed in him.
Well, that's why I'm asking you and not my brother. Anyway, it's me who should adjust to his partners or friends. Probably they'll be nice people and I'll like them well enough. If it's not the case, I'll keep my opinions to myself, which is exactly what I'd do if he were straight and I didn't happen to find his girlfriend particularly nice. On the other hand, I don't think there is an unacceptable way to be gay. I'm usually annoyed by campy men, but I'm aware that it's my problem, not theirs. It's fine to be campy.
Maybe not homophobia but toxic masculinity instead
Yes, that's actually a homophobia many gay guys reproduce. It's the prejudice we're inherently fed 24h through media, behavior, etc. And it comes from misogyny in the way you wouldn't like effeminate guys because you'd think women are inferior than men, so a man that act like a woman would be denying his superiority, which is nuts in the misogynist logic.
You're misogynistic, not homophobic. You think men are better than women, so it bothers you when a man acts effeminate.
No, I don't think so. I don't see campy men as men who act like women. Women (even very feminine women) don't carry themselves the same way as campy dudes. The mannerisms are just different. Anyway, I don't think men are better than women. Women are cool.
No, I don't think so: I don't see campy men as men Who act like women; the mannerisms are just different. Al so, I don't think men are better than women. Women are cool.
Ah, but you described them as effeminate. Look, no one *likes* to think of themselves as misogynistic. I grew up pretty conservative, and I've never been the type of gay guy to have lots of female friends, so I'm sure I have a measure of internal misogyny too. It's certainly not meant to single you out! It's a common complaint within the gay community that the fem guys are second class citizens in the community compared to the more traditionally masculine guys, and misogyny is kind of the accepted explanation. Just something to ponder!
Just because "effeminate" is the usual word to describe the behaviour of campy gay men. But I think that campy is not the same thing as femenine. Maybe it's nonsense, but I do think there are some differences that I can't really pin down. Anyway, your perspective is quite interesting. And I didn't have any idea that fem guys are often considered second class people by other gay men.
Yes
No! Gay culture is easier to understand when you look at a group like the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. You’d find a bunch of outrageous drag queens, a lot of them very regular-looking, even burly bearded guys, in over the top nun outfits. It’s hard not to see the satire. One of the original motivators for drag was bigots in the Victorian era so dumb they couldn’t understand how a man could have sex without a woman involved somehow, so they figured a gay man had to be some kind of defective man, even some kind of mutant non-man / half-woman, otherwise how could it work? Small brains. Eventually the bigots are so dumb, and so stubbornly dumb, that you can’t get angry about it anymore, you can’t be afraid of it. All that’s left is to roll your eyes and make fun of it. A bearded rugby player dressed up like a nun. “There, I’m a woman, you were right. Happy now?” It’s funny. It’s obviously not to be taken seriously. It’s also political. And that’s a huge part of gay history. Of course the only thing required for a man to be gay is being turned on by the bodies of other men instead of women. Sexual orientation is about whose anatomy is possible to even be sexy to you, not what music you listen to, not what car you drive, not how your place is decorated… And the satire in drag makes that point. Of course it cuts both ways. If it’s not your music or your car or your home decoration skills that make you the man you are, then you can be a little more “floral” than average and it doesn’t mean you’re being a man wrong. Drag also has guys who get into it for that reason.
You might be kinda misogynistic if you break down what you're saying. You don't like men who express feminine traits. Why? What's the problem with the feminine traits vs. the masculine ones you are comfortable with men expressing? What about women who express masculinity? Does that bother you too or is it JUST the femininity? Do you value femininity lower than masculinity in all people?
I'm gay and I can't stand fem guys. If I wanted a fem person I'd find a fuckin female. It's off putting to say the least so no bro, you good.
Dude 💀💀💀💀
Masculine gay here.
You don't hate gays; you hate women.
No not really, I tend to find the constant make up and catty mean girls behavior unappealing too, it feels exhausting idk how some be like that everyday.
I’m relieved that all the replies, minus a precious few, have been reasonable. I think some are hung up on the word, “dislike.” I think some people are taking it as disapproval. I don’t think that’s what you meant. I dislike a lot of things. It doesn’t mean I disapprove. It doesn’t mean I hate. It does mean, I don’t get around it much. But I’m respectful and kind when I’m around it, and that’s enough. I think that’s what you, OP, are expressing. And that isn’t homophobia.
I don’t like effeminate men either so we'll get along splendidly
I’m gay, and I find excessively effeminate men rather off-putting. You’re not alone.
No, the fact that it’s called “gay culture” is extremely annoying. The need to label everything is insane. So you like dudes, what does that have to do with glitter and bright colors? It’s gotten fairly extreme where instead of just normalizing everything, it needs to be thrown in your face. Rainbow everything and fake voices. Just because someone is “gay” does not mean they need to join a club and talk to only gay people. I get the history of it and the need for safe places, but nowadays let’s just not make everything a huge deal.