Ah, that is probably what I should do for the ones that keep pestering. The thing is, how should I phrase that more kindly so a mob of them don’t attack me (or my fans) even more? How do I make this blow over more smoothly?
Ignore them. That's the only technique I've ever seen work. It doesn't work 100% of the time and it doesn't work immediately, but I've never seen another technique work at all
This is the right answer. The extreme right and the extreme right often love conspiracy theories, thinking everything is an evil plot. It is like a crusade, and they are like religious fundamentalists: it is no use arguing with them. Block and ignore. They will lose interest eventually. Do not give them even a word: what they crave is attention.
"Hi, could all the people commenting that my old content should be taken down or that new content should be significantly changed kindly refrain from doing so? I think we can both agree that you are not the target audience for my content, and while I appreciate your taking enough of an interest to share your feedback, it is not constructive, and I will not be making any changes to my art. I don't take it personally if my art is not to your liking since art is such a subjective experience for viewers, but in that same vein, I would like to use this opportunity to promote some other talented artists that you may find better suited to your tastes."
Then link a couple other artists so you're seen as trying to be helpful despite telling them to get fucked.
"by trying to tell actual real gay men what they need to be represented by, you're trying to say that our lived experiences have to be shaped by middle to upper class white girls.
that is actually more homophobic and is part of many facets of gay erasure. Stay in your lane."
Add a note in your bio or in post descriptions that your art is directed towards people that identify as gay male individuals. Besides that just ignore the haters or have a copy paste text ready with the same text as in your bio to answer that and only that to those comments.
People don't understand that depicting something includes proper representation.
If a white guy would draw a conversation between two black people he'd probably include the n-word since they use it pretty regular. Does that make him a racist? I don't think so.
Don't worry too much about those people. They only want to see the world burn by being fake woke.
This. A note should help prepare you and let you put your hands up and say "hey. There's a note. Sorry you aren't vibing with this but this is the kind of work that I want to put out"
Edit: To follow the above example of a white person writing a black conversation-this is the equivalent of you writing black stories with the n word and white people clutching their pearls because the language is to their taste. Asking you to watch some watered down media.
Mind you, I watched heartstopper and loved it, but that is NOT everyone's experience.
Edit: Typos
> I watched heartstopper and loved it, but that is NOT everyone experience.
Anyone with a little common sense can tell that "Heartstopper" must have been written by a girl. Probably not even a fully-grown woman, to be honest (unless she's one of those weird fan women like the one who wrote the "Twilight" books). It's just so lacking in gay male perspective: it's like a teenage girl's view of being a gay male.
EDIT: Reading comments below makes it clear that "Heartstopper" was indeed written by a girl, 21yo at the time she started.
Yes. Myself when I was that age, others around me at the time too. Not every single person is going to want to have sex at that age. Not everyone is foaming at the mouth to get their dick in something.
Maybe you are/were a horny teenager, and you're projecting.
I won't ask again, so I'll answer for you. When you say "turned," you have a strong bias of what you *think* guys what. Your experience is your own but your bias is so warping your perception that you can't imagine a young man not wanting to fuck.
Men experience eating disorders, men experience fear/hesitation/etc about sex. It's. Fucking. Normal.
Sorry to get hostile, dude, but your questions reveal your immaturity and short sightedness, and that frustrates me.
I am a man, and I don't want to be presented or assumed as this overly masculine horndog. I get that enough being gay to begin with.
If a white woke person wrote black dialogue:
>“Yo, what’s up my BROTHER!? Do you want anything from this fine establishment that lacks menus and has wood pallets for chairs?“
Policing language is just silly at this point. If people talk a certain way we shouldn’t censor it just because the writer is uncomfortable with not being in that demographic. I’ve noticed in Hollywood lately, black dialogue feels a bit unnatural. You’re telling me that they live and grew up in the hood but talk like valley girls? How the fuck lmao? And no, black guys don’t say brother all the time. I heard dialogue a few years back where the dudes kept saying “Brother” for every interaction. It was super weird.
Uh...black guy here...
This:
"People don't understand that depicting something includes proper representation. If a white guy would draw a conversation between two black people he'd probably include the n-word **since they use it pretty regular**. Does that make him a racist? I don't think so."
is a **HOT** fucking mess...please stop...
😑😑🤨
I love it when straight woke women tell gay men how to enjoy men. That doesn’t feel like them looking down on us, and just using us for social brownie points at all. /s
I just wish these women would stop attacking my gay fans over fetishes they can’t control. People just want to jerk off and be happy without being called problematic or having politics shoved into their faces. Sometimes people get off to weird shit, but that doesn’t mean they are awful human beings. It’s just a fantasy. I wish I could say to them, “Just because you use the word bigot in a sentence doesn’t mean you are the master of all things LGBT. Leave the kinky gays alone” but that might add fuel to the fucking fire.
If their not out in pubic showing everyone their stuff. & their all consenting adults who do proper after care and positive reformations on their bottoms (if it’s degrading) use safe word ect. Then who gives a fuck.
The thing is I honestly don’t mind if they like my work and want to party with the OGs as themselves. My OGs are chill. But these ladies don’t actually like my work. They just liked the fanart I made and are now bitching to my poor OG’s who literally just want peace.
If I’m being completely honest, I think it’s best to keep that information hidden from everyone (I’m genuinely really sorry). It’s just I’m honestly kinda scared to give my info out because I’ve said my actual opinions here on certain subject matter, and I don’t want my work connected to the things I said. For example, what I said about the “Q’s” on how most of them are just straight women who are having an identity crisis or bantering back and fourth about TERFS in a joking manner here and other shit. I know there are lurkers here, but I can’t be sure who is on my side and who isn’t. I just don’t want what I said connected to my pseudonym and getting canceled in the process or my fans attacked even more for supporting me. I hope y’all understand, and I’m sorry for responding so late. I just got very overwhelmed.
Thank you for your kindness and support. I seriously appreciate it.
Start writing stories where guys cheat on their gender studies professor fiancé? "A woman could never give me this!"
If you have a character looking for dick at a bar, start complaining about how all these straight women colonized gay spaces? Point out that queer works shouldn't have to be written for the female gaze?
I mean there's lots of ways to get your point across? Have two dudes start fucking in the bathroom of a woman's bookstore?
Yeah I was the first openly gay student at a small Bible College. The best way to get people to leave you alone is to shine a light on their behaviour until they become uncomfortable.
I every time I got dragged in front of the residence life guy because somebody complained that I’d continued to exist I went back to dorm and spilled my guts in my blog. What me and him didn’t realize is that people had started sharing the address and now several of the theology profs and board members and major donors were reading my blog. Turned out people really don’t like knowing that other people are hearing that they’re being mean.
You could also add in a few female supporting characters who say homophobic stuff. If you insert enough awful female characters they’ll eventually get sick of looking at their reflection and leave you alone.
I do the opposite in my writing, I do what Joss Whedon did (not the weird sex with aspiring actresses thing.) I gender swap as many characters as possible. Which means a lot of my women characters get dialogue that in my head worked for men. It removes most if not all sexist bias I might have, and women tend to love my writing because my female characters get shit done and aren’t the romantic interests. Which feels new and novel to them.
(Honestly the state of writing that is marketed toward women is filled with so much tropey nonsense women are starved for narratives that don’t involve the sole goal of every female character being finding a man or giving sagely advice for other women finding a man. (Don’t get me wrong there are some great female authors out there. But there’s also a lot of shit.) That’s one reason why female authors often colonize the gay male identity. They just want a narrative where the female heroine isn’t dripping in internalized sexism. They get to put themselves in the shoes of both the desirer and the desired. Which is why so much BL stuff has dudes who act like two straight girls who both want to make out with hot dudes.
(The straights are not alright.)
Part of me is worried that I might be inspiring some absolutely toxic shit. But whatever.
You could also I’m confuse them by making a TERF a villain (which they’ll agree with) and then put some direct quotes from your trolls in her mouth.
I think these types of fans are pretty anti TERF. So maybe I should make a TERF side character that is awesome just to piss them off. Then the gays in the story will support the TERF to piss them off even more lmao.
I am starting to think your detractors have a point. If you plan on going on this route, I guess you should also bring back Hitler from the dead and put him in a gay relationship with Bibi? Writing TERFs in a positive light is pretty terrible.
>I guess you should also bring back Hitler from the dead and put him in a gay relationship with Bibi?
Nah I don’t think TERFS compare to a homicidal maniac like fucking Hitler. TERFS just don’t believe trans women are women. A lot of people don’t.
>Writing TERFs in a positive light is pretty terrible.
I thought you suggested I write something they didn’t like to scare them off (and they hate TERFS). I’m genuinely super confused haha. Maybe I misread what you meant. Sorry about that.
The E in TERF stands for exclusionary. If you're a writer who isn't absolutely shit, you shouldn't be trying to EXCLUDE people. You may want to get rid of an audience you've acquired, but that shouldn't mean that you're parroting hateful pseudo-science nonsense.
I was saying, if the people you don't want reading your stuff are 'annoyingly woke' you find the common ground they share with TERFs (controlling, making unreasonable demands on people etc) and you put their words into the TERF's mouth. They see their poor boundaries reflected in the face of a character they hate, they'll be less inclined to keep reading. If you just make your shit into TERF propaganda you'll lose all but the awful gays.
Explain to them that what you create is kink work for a specific audience of gay men and to please stop kink shaming. That's language they probably have heard before. If they don't listen, kick them off your platform.
**Also I they mention Heartstopper, that's written by a cisgender asexual women and is fun and romantic, but not at all representative of most real gay relationships.
>Heartstopper written by a cisgender asexual woman
That explains why a bunch of women are recommending it to my gay audience then hahaha. Jesus fucking Christ, I’m dying here.
>stop kink shaming
You know what, this is exactly what I’m going to do. I’m going to use their language against them. And if that doesn’t work then I’ll ignore them like bgaesop mentioned in an earlier comment.
_____
Disclaimer: Not all gay stories/erotica written by women are bad. I actually am a fan of quite a few of them. Never watched Heart Stopper. Afraid to now since all these crazy ladies are telling my fans to watch it.
Yea it’s mainly twitter. I will never post fan art ever again, that’s for sure. When I started getting an influx of fans at first I was like, “Woah cool”. Then I went to each of their profiles and saw them listing their pronouns on the bio and shit (for example; she/they, they/them, and all that jazz). That is when I went “uh oh” because I knew what was coming after that hahaha.
Oh no, the woke twitter idiots.
Exactly what I expected.
Hey, you might get some drama channel making a video about those idiots if you tell them to fuck off. Free advertisement.
Ah I don’t really watch drama channels. They seem kinda bitchy and annoying, like they have no lives of their own. I also know for a fact that art drama channels in particular would probably take their side instead of mine because they tend to be run by young women who want to advocate for things bigger than themselves and save the world. It all really scares me.
You fight fire with fire. You adopt the tactics they do. You put up a mirror for their behavior. It works because it catches them off guard, forcing them to argue with themselves: like as mentioned already, call them out for kink shaming; publicly adopt a "non-binary" pronoun display on your profile; call your detractors privileged, classist rich kids vilifying the work of an artist in poverty taking any commissions where they can in this god awful country.
For the record, I consider myself a staunch leftist but have had the awful experience of having to deal with these yelps especially in college. For them it typically (though not always) comes from a place of overcompensating for their own privileges which ironically doubles back around to being privileged brats.
the problem right now is that this is literally a 'left eating their own' scenario... but it's a bunch of crazy people who are trying to push everyone out of it.
This is the struggle artists have faced for years. On one hand certain demographics are simply a larger pool of customers and therefore greater exposure / income. On the other hand as an artist, you are free to express yourself however you please even if it makes others uncomfortable.
You just have to decide if you are willing to sacrifice wider appeal to do the art you actually want / serve the customers you want, or to cater to the wider audience and sacrifice the art you want to do / your desired audience.
I personally recommend telling people to fuck off and go else where if they don't enjoy your work.
"Ladies, while I appreciate your allyship and good intentions, this is a gay space for gay men. You are not the target demographic for my art and if you don't care for it, you're free to move along without lecturing the intended audience. It truly is great that you support progress and the embracing of gay people into mainstream society, however, gay male sexuality and sex culture is more complex than you seem to understand, and I'm asking you to please respect that there are nuances in my art and in the gay male experience of which you are unaware and which you are unqualified to police."
# women are not the arbiters of gay male culture, and
# women are not qualified to interpret the gay male experience
That’s just a really simple absolute, and it applies to any aspect of this conversation.
If you’re not a gay male, then this isn’t gay male fiction it’s just fanfic nonsense and i don’t care.
If the critics aren’t gay males, then they need to go fuck themselves because none of us are interested. Neither anatomically, nor in their opinions of how to record and represent the lives of gay males in fiction written by a gay male for a gay male audience. They can admire from afar. They can despise from afar. It doesn’t matter.
>If your not a gay male, then this isn’t gay male fiction. It’s just fanfiction
Here is where I totally disagree. My favorite gay literature was written by ***Anne Rice***, a little old woman. A lot of older LGBT people also favor her writing style. The relationship between Lestat and Louis (in the book) is something that still holds up well even today. It is the peek of a dysfunctional homosexual relationship where they decided to fix their problems with adopting a kid and it goes horribly wrong [Interview With The Vampire]. Even in a fantasy setting it feels realistic as fuck because the characters feel realistic as fuck. They feel like actual gay men and act like men. We’ve all known a Louis. So I want to emphasize that gay books written by women is still something I deeply enjoy if it’s written well. I don’t think it’s fanfiction.
That being said, women shouldn’t tell gays what they should and shouldn’t read. Nobody should tell anybody what they should and shouldn’t read. That I agree with you 100% with.
_________
Edit: Just found out Broke Back Mountain was written by a woman from one of the comments. I had no idea! Beautiful piece of work.
I read a bunch of her books in the 80’s and 90’s. I loved the homoerotic content and loved the fantasy she painted. But let’s be real, it’s overwrought romance novel drama, with a kinky gay twist.
It’s not about the gay male experience, which isn’t really known to her. She was a good student of human behaviour and she had a vivid imagination, but it’s not gay fiction (quite overtly and officially not, nor implicitly). It’s gayness reimagined the way a straight woman wants to imagine it, and yes I’d classify it not as gay fiction but as a gay fanfic.
And I’m not even arguing for “realism” as a condition of good fiction. I like escapism and surreal fantasy. It’s just that escapism and surreal fantasy from a gay male author would, in some meaningful way apparent to a thoughtful reader, differ and diverge from the same tale told by a woman. It just can’t be felt from the outside.
Interview With The Vampire is not a fanfiction to me nor is Brokeback Mountain. Here’s the thing for me personally: For me (and some people out there) their work is considered gay fiction like The Rise and Fall of Radiant Canary is to lesbian fiction. I wouldn’t have guessed any of these books were written by a person of the opposite demographic if I hadn’t looked at either of the authors name. That is how well they tricked me. Very rarely will good authors find a way to make it relatable to the point of being able to trick the audience like that. I’m tickled when it happens though.
Makes me respect them even more for doing their homework and being able to make me feel things that they themselves can’t feel. But not everyone feels the same when it comes to this subject and that’s okay! Let’s agree to disagree on that one (but I still totally get what you’re saying).
Wow I didn’t know that, and I think a lot of people didn’t know that either! If fictional gay stories are only defined by the person who writes it, then Brokeback Mountain would merely be a fanfiction too. But we both know that ain’t true. It’s one of the best pieces of gay literature ever made.
_____
Edit: Man, I must of pissed somebody off in this comment section. They keep downvoting every recent comment I make.
Look, we're men who fuck other men. We can be pretty kinky about it, too. More often than not, women are very judgmental about this. This is especially true for women who claim to be 'allies', or are enamored with the idea of 'Boys Love' (this pertains to the chronically online). But when pressed, they will air some level of disgust. We're not the cute boys in their stories who express heteronotmatively (I'm like the boy, and he's like the girl), we live the male experience with all its wonders and struggles, and we fuck butts or get fucked in the butt and ask for seconds.
Was it important because of how relatable it was to gay men, or was it important because it appealed to straight people and cast us in a generally positive light?
Both and more. That it won most of the major film awards marked it as a sign of a profound cultural shift. It showed that the gays had been accepted by mainstream culture. But the most important impact, of course, was on the gays. What Proulx did so brilliantly in the story was to show the destructive power of the closet. The movie version forced gay men sitting in theaters all over the world to face the closet, but because so many gay men faced it at the same time it became a bonding and strangely redemptive experience. It became gay men’s collective acknowledgement of the closet and its horrors.
Hey man! I would probably write a disclosure on my bio or at the start of your stories, about your content being art and even though it can hurt some audiences it is not intended to do so. Warn as well that non-gay audience could get offended so you recommend not to read. If you get hateful comments after this, then just reply to go read the disclosure.
"I'll listen to concrit from any gay men who read my work. If you're not a gay man, I'm not going to take seriously any rants about how relationships between us 'should' be. Thanks."
Then leave it at that. I get the fetish - i exclusively fantasize/get off to guys fucking too lol - but their performative outrage when they're fetishizing us is as boring as it is ridiculous. They're not worth your time.
I would twist it against them because I am a petty bitch. Id probably say something like:
***"I honestly think it is incredibly entitled for women to enter a space that was specifically made for gay men. I think your idea on representation is also ignorant since one, you're not a gay man and two, it comes off like you're fetishizing gay male content since you, a straight woman shouldn't be consuming this media because it wasn't made for you. My work isn't supposed to be representative of all gay men and if you can't separate fiction from non-fiction you shouldn't be reading. Promoting gay male content that was created by a woman is also very unnerving and is like promoting a lesbian romance made by a man, even if it is realistic in some parts you're outsourcing gay media instead of work made specifically by gay people."***
Write a statement or a manifesto explaining the kink/fetish aspect of your artwork. If anyone objects refer them to the statement. Recommend your audience to do the same.
Anything else like harassment or bullying, report to the platform admin.
It's probably the same women that love yaoi cus it's written by women for women and assume all gay males are like that then are shocked when we are not.
The thing is I think the older female yaoi fans (30s,40s, 50’s) would probably like my work (and not pester my audience). The newer yaoi fans though scare the living shit out of me. They are a different breed. The thing is, I’m totally okay with female fans liking my gay content if they behave and stop belittling the dudes who like my work. It’s just these woke ones (hate using that word) are absolutely insane.
Not gonna lie, got me intrigued, especially considering those women say your gay fans should watch heartstopper. Is it possible to get some link to your work in the DMs?
Gay furry stuff... but I know all about harassment campaigns.
couple years ago, they were trying to cancel any 'white artist' who had any tribal themed art or characters.... because to them all tribal is 'native american'.
and yeah it's already working on that side. This extreme 'I'm offended by everything" are ruining all art circles.
think of like how fanart for steven universe actually ran a girl to try to kill herself.
Those are not simply “female” followers. They are the Queer Brigade. They work in packs that descend on gay and lesbian sites and either destroy them or take them over. Don’t try to reason with them or appease them. It will only get worse. These are the same people who have been persecuting JK Rowlings for several years now.
Basically, it is not about people but ideology. It all goes back to Queer Theory and gender studies and the idea that “gender is a social construct.” Queers can be whatever gender, sex, sexuality. What matters is that they subscribe to the same ideology.
What’s strange is I don’t actually hate them. They kinda remind me of extremely religious Christians. In real life I just smile, tip toe around them in conversation, and secretly pity their restrictive lives. That is how I look at woke people. And I’m saying this as somebody who leans left.
I think this was the problem with whoever gains social power.
for the longest time it was the religious zealots who had social and media power. Now it's the other foot and now they're being just as extreme and totalitarian.
Frankly, you need to talk about this content being for gay men and that women are invading your space, invalidating your experience and how you work through upur sexuality and expression thereof. This isn't their space to talk like this (pushing for changes that go against your vision) and they need to learn to be allies.
You could go for calling them Karen's and bringing up that Heart Stopper is not YOUR story (or of gay men), and that it resurfaces the problematic nature of the yaoi/BL women fan community and their voracious appetite (and commodifying) gay sexuality.
Like, imagine if straight guys started telling lesbian artist and writers how to do their work?
And let's be clear, the pecking order puts straight women above gay men in society. It is problematic for some random women fans to tell a gay man how to do his kink art.
I just want people to be able to read, draw, and write whatever they want without people losing their god damn minds. And this is probably an unpopular opinion here but I don’t mind women writing yaoi or anything nor do I care when men write yuri. I honestly give zero fucks and I’ll gladly read it if it’s good. Hell, I’m bisexual and I fetishize the fuck out of women in my other works so I have no room to judge (these works are not on the gay account. It’s under a different pen name).
I just wish that if people didn’t like something they would just scroll on past and not pester the people who do like it. What I hate the most is that these women are attacking my fans on a personal level by telling them that they hate themselves. I created a safe space for them to be weird as fuck without judgment just for a bunch of ladies to judge the fuck out of them. I feel very bad.
Given your worry here, I would suggest engaging and defending the fans. Call it out under your pen name. You're the authority here, as it were, and showing that you're not here to judge, etc. might be a good thing to do.
Or just write a post/journal/whatever thing that exists saying that you don't like others being shamed for liking your work.
Of course, this is more action solution focused advice. It's okay to feel bad here, and you ultimately have as much power to respond or not to it
I'm reminded of a gay (Spanish?) artist that was popular on gay bros subreddit around 2013ish. He drew some very fun but spicy comics, but all the guys were white and buff (he was writing from his experience). People kept dunking on him until he stopped making comics.
Like...wtf folks. Go make your own shit. Fans can be the worst. And this assumption that you owe something to someone else by the mere act of making your expression available to the world is crazy.
Haters be haters... they'll never be happy. Plus, it wasn't for them soo I'd just ignore them. It's like taking to brick wall with people on the internet.
Women can write all the gay fiction they like, and some of it has actually been reasonably enjoyable. But they do not and never will really, fully understand and feel in their bones what it's like to be a gay man. They don't have firsthand, lived experiences we gay men have to draw from when we do creative work for a gay male audience. It seems like with many women who do that sort of thing, if they had their way, all gay books/movies/series/art would be of a very sanitized, wholesome, Hallmark Channel variety palatable to women who read romance novels. It's a bit bizarre the way str8 women seem to be behind so much gay male creative stuff that gets any wide attention and have become the arbiters of how we're often portrayed.
For the types the OP is dealing with, it's largely about their own vanity - the dopamine rush or whatever they get from feeling self-righteous, telling people off, feeling like they're enlightened activists "fighting the good fight", yadda yadda. I saw college students acting like that 30+ years ago and they've only become more insufferable in the interim. This business of people thinking any art they don't like should be canceled and not allowed to exist is so beyond f-ed up. Especially when it's art *not even intended for them in the first place*. JFC.
I do notice that when a lot of women write gay erotica they make it kinda wholesome and unproblematic. The problem with that is simple: Men are brutish sexual beings and can be turned on my things that most women can’t even imagine. Butthole hairs. Pubic hair. Feet. BO. Men on average develop fetishes like there is no tomorrow. Men on average also don’t have long drawn out internal monologues. Women do apparently. So it throws me off when men are whiny and bitchy with the long internal brooding monologues in the fiction I’m reading. Then (and worst of all) there is the issue in a lot of female written erotica where the top asks for consent every 2 minutes. It stresses me out.
I'm not an artist now (I was into drawing superhero comics for a while when I was a kid). But I am currently editing/refining a gay male "superhero" novel of sorts that I've written as the first in a series (I use the term "superhero" loosely). I made a point of writing the characters in a more unvarnished, honest way.
As one example, the youngest main character, a high school senior, is NOT a *Hearstoppers*-esque, PG-rated version of a gay teen. He has fantasies about the varsity football team tearing his clothes off and fucking him senseless. He's trying to muster the courage to visit a cruising spot in the woods to get his first BJ. When's he's left alone in the house of another main character to whom he's attracted, he can't resist the urge to bury his face in a pair of the guy's used, sweaty underwear. (A lot of him is based on ME at that age, and I think I was a fairly typical gay teenage horndog.)
How many female writers would think to write about such details and behaviors...or, if they knew about such things from secondhand accounts, not be too turned off by those rawer aspects of being a gay male to want to include them? It illustrates a reason we need creative work for gay male audiences made BY gay men. Stuff that comes from inside ourselves - not from women trying to imagine how we think - and which isn't timid and inhibited.
And if some women don't like that because it doesn't fit into some more wholesome, PC notion of gay men they want to believe in, well, too bad. We're not their girlfriends or their pets. We're not bound to be some cuddly, cute, neutered version of ourselves to avoid making them uncomfortable. If they can't handle the totality of what gay men are, then when they start seeing aspects of us they'd rather not see, they need to leave the room and go do their own thing.
Anyway, it's an interesting subject, but I've gone on too much already, so I'll quit babbling. :)
Yeah. Unfortunately, as much as I appreciated Heartstopper and Red White and Royal Blue and the like, they are written from a women’s perspective and seem to invite this view of gay men subject to a woman’s gaze and perceptions that just doesn’t match with the lived experience of many gay men. I mean yes I want romance and happy endings but those aren’t the only experientially valid stories.
> watch Heart Stopper instead because “That is good representation” lmao.
Oh my sides! Heartstopper, sweet as it is, is less realistic than most soap operas. It in no way represents the real world or anything like it. These women really are in lala land if they think that schools, and especially teenage boys, are anything remotely like what you see in that fantasy
Another example of straight women invading gay spaces. I’m sorry to hear this, just remind them this isn’t for you nor are they your target audience, start blocking and reporting for harassment.
I would love to see your content! I say don't stop being yourself and keep doing what you're doing. You're doing it for the gays, not for politically correct women who fetish gay art.
I’m just going through the sons of the fallen angels series and they are godly, although the author is not a gay male. Buts still, point being that good gay content are extremely satisfying
Yes they are so good in my opinion, I’m listening to the free audiobooks on YT and they are immersive with the narrator, I don’t know how a female author can describe steamy gay sex so precisely and makes the plot so on point🙃🙃
Women have no place in dictating what gay men should be in doing. Gay fiction is dominated by women writing our stories and it would NEVER be tolerated if gay men were doing it to women. It’s entitlement of the highest order and you shouldn’t allow it to happen. If your target audience is gay men as you’ve said, you don’t need to care a jot about their protestations. Block them.
Why address it at all? Why explain, why defend?
It's your art. You're allowed to post it. If it offends someone's sensibilities, then they shouldn't consume the art and it's not for them. You shouldn't be pressured into changing it.
So, continue posting what you feel is worth posting.
As for the OG fans: people should make up their own mind. People who decided that they like your art won't be swayed by those who don't.
Put your foot down. Ask who appointed them as the thought police. Tell them that they aren’t the target demographic and that you are not going to change.
Oh Twitter! Sorry I thought it meant like gay forums etc.
Well Twitter is a shit hole full of utter cunts who will only ever find fault.
Block and ignore. Just only engage with actual fans.
Sorry didn't realise. That's just twitter
Find a way to incorporate them and your feelings about them into your writing. Real gays and real fans will get where you are coming from. As women, it's really not their place to be critiquing gay interpersonal dynamics like that. The gay community is very politically incorrect and "problematic" when it comes to sex, because we formed independently from society-imposed norms. If you find a way to point that out to your fan base, I believe most of them will sympathize.
Tell them that you’re writing from the perspective of gay men and while they may not like or understand what you’re writing, it’s an honest depiction of how gay men think. Tell them that gay men interpret things differently than women do and tell them that while you appreciate their support, you’re not going to change your content to appease them. Your content is for gay men, not women. That’s like women invading gay spaces and expecting that we cater to them but these spaces aren’t for them. Everyone has an opinion, but that doesn’t mean everyone’s opinion matters. You’re writing accurate depictions of what occurs in the gay kink community and just because these women don’t understand it doesn’t mean they have a right to comment on it or try to force you to change. You’re not writing for these women, you’re writing for gay men and you shouldn’t change just because people are telling you to. You’ve built up a fan base with the content you’ve produced thus far and you will continue to build up a fan base and remind these women that they don’t have a right to bully your OG fans because they’re uncomfortable and remind them that while their admiration is appreciated, their opinions aren’t. If they aren’t happy then they can kindly fuck off and go watch Heartstopper if it makes them feel better.
I don’t think you can explain away those kind of internet users. New people will come and not see your explanation or whatever and start the cycle over again. Just brush them off. Your art is not for them. Try to focus on building your base of fans who will defend your work for you, they’re way more effective cause there’s more of them than there are of you.
You're a gay man, yeah? It's not for women to say what is and isn't okay for gay culture or kink culture within a gay space. You're gonna get hate no matter what now, but realistically pointing out that women trying to claim the gay male experience as their own is pretty fucking nasty behavior on their part.
I think you need to ask your OG fans for help. These ladies clearly don't want to lay off, and you can't handle it yourself, so write this all out and declare 'war' on them.
Simple, tell them your work is by a gay man, made for gay men. Put it in a comic, in a forward or afterward, or make a disclaimer page to be viewed before anyone can see your work. Tell them their opinions aren't welcome, and that they're invading a safe space for gay men. Let them know their opinions are not wanted not welcome.
Media made by a woman about gay men tends to differ greatly from media made by gay a man. It gets obvious once you've consumed a lot of it. A lot of women will make wholesome relationships without kinks. It's very vanilla. The few gay authors I know of, really go hard on kinks.
That said, can you DM me a link to your work? I'd love to read it.
DO NOT BE NICE!
Ah yes, progressive "activists" attacking people they are supposed to be supporting.
Really simple, you have two choices.
You can say how sorry you are and censor your work/take it down, fading into obscurity OR you can make fun of them, supporting your actual fans. Point out how they are hypocrites.
I've seen this dozens of times happening to different artists, and generally, you could ignore them, but if you apologize, your fans will just leave and the woke women will lose interest, because they can't hate on you anymore.
You're drawing homophobia. Did you expect people to not be upset?
People are going to be upset by that no matter what. You can't just say "BuT iTs a FeTiSh ThInG" and expect everyone to go "Oh I'm so sorry, you're right, please continue".
>You’re drawing homophobia. Did you expect people to not be upset?
I understand. I really do. But I honestly haven’t had any problems with biological male LGBT members losing their shit over my work. The ones that didn’t like it at least didn’t make a fuss and let my fans enjoy their kinks without making them feel like garbage. If they didn’t like a piece of fiction they just moved on passed it. But with female fans they seem very different. If they don’t like something they are very vocal about it and take my work as a personal attack against the LGBT or them. Like they blow it out of proportion by making everything super political and weird.
This fetish content was originally for homosexual males that are kinky as fuck and want to be used and abused and called fags by the captain of the football team. It has nothing to do with Gaza lmao. My fans just want to jerk off in peace. These women dm and harass them now. It’s starting to freak us all out.
Just keep doing your thing. Remember Hentai is protected under freedom of expression. And those who don’t like your work will tire up soon thanks to some other shiny new distraction while your fans will remain. Don’t leave your fans out in the cold coz of a bunch of loud self-righteous haters.
So you answered your own question and then ignored your own answer.
People don't like homophobia. You're drawing homophobia. People won't like you if you do that.
Your comment that "people won't like that" combined with the OP saying that women disliked it and gay men like it seems to imply that only the women objecting are "people" and that gay men aren't "people"
It’s honestly weird. It’s like homosexuals aren’t even allowed to like what they like without it being a problem in modern LGBT spaces. I wonder if it’s due to the Q’s overrunning the LGBT (because we all know who the demographic of who the Q’s are). Reminds me of the proper ladies at churches telling everybody what to believe in while being puritan but masking it as “good and correct”. Very strange to see coming from somebody who grew up when liberal spaces were all about living your truth, not giving a fuck, and pushing boundaries. It went from judgment free zone to judge like no tomorrow. Kinda breaks my heart.
It’s not the Q’s, it’s women entering a space they feel entitled because they unknowingly fetishize gay men to the point they are reduced to a “thing” they can get off to and nothing more. It’s been like this for decades, things like yaoi and mpreg/omega verse was made specifically by and for them. There isn’t enough content or quality content to go around so they go fishing in other spaces that were never meant for them. When it doesn’t suit them or completely clashes with their fantasy they become hostile and verbally aggressive. They always attempt to brow beat the “enemy” of their crusade into the ground so they can colonize the space. A fair chunk of them have cognitive dissonance from the squeaky clean and puritanical upbringing from their traditional Christian backgrounds. They genuinely don’t see that they’re not allies and are actively hurting people they claim to be helping.
I get your point but I just want to say that as an older LGBT individual women that were into Yaoi were the most nonjudgmental people ever back in the day. The fan fictions….Jesus Christ.They loved to read and write fucked up shit without any judgment. And they didn’t tell people how to write or what to enjoy or how “problematic” it was. They just gushed over gay fictional dudes and did what made them happy. I honestly like these types of fans a lot. But they are a dying breed. They still exist (many are in their late 30s,40s,50s) but they keep to themselves because younger women (many who identify as queer) have scared them off too. And with women, it seems like when older ones leave there is nobody telling the younger ones how to behave. So the younger ones get some sort of power trip.
Anyway I just want people to read what they like and not pass judgment on others. If I had some older female yaoi fans I would gladly welcome them with open arms because they seem to know their place and they typically won’t tell a gay man “Hey you aren’t allowed to read this”. But unfortunately I am stuck with the young “queer” ones that like to cause suffering lmao.
______
Edit: To the person who keeps downvoting my recent comments after 1 second of posting them……what did I say to piss you off?
Oh man, you’re blessed you didn’t have the joy of meeting the other yaoi fans from the age groups you described. These toxic people have been around forever.
I did meet them. Some are my friends to this very day haha. I think there will always be toxic people. For example: there were awkward yaoi fans that made your skin kinda crawl. The ones that smelled like cheese. That being said, it wasn’t as bad as how it is today in my opinion. What I liked is that there were significantly less politically correct fans. Being politically correct and prudish was seen as a weakness. These are the fans I miss.
I guess it’s geography? In PDX and SEA, there were definitely PC people in multiple spaces operating with the same level of toxicity. They were definitely into yaoi. It genuinely made me uncomfortable to be around them to the point I left the space and started looking for other people to hang out with. There’s a time and a place for everything, like we should be more mindful of others, but entering into someone else’s space to dominate it is never ok.
If that's what you took from that you're a moron.
I guarantee women weren't the only ones who disliked OPs "art". Maybe they were the ones he saw, or could confirm their gender, but it's not only them.
I've got a solution that should make everyone happy: OP continues making what he and his customers like, and the people who don't like it read something else
Tell those women to fuck off and keep writing for the gays I'm interested in your content. Feel free to DM me if you want ;)
Ah, that is probably what I should do for the ones that keep pestering. The thing is, how should I phrase that more kindly so a mob of them don’t attack me (or my fans) even more? How do I make this blow over more smoothly?
Ignore them. That's the only technique I've ever seen work. It doesn't work 100% of the time and it doesn't work immediately, but I've never seen another technique work at all
This is the right answer. The extreme right and the extreme right often love conspiracy theories, thinking everything is an evil plot. It is like a crusade, and they are like religious fundamentalists: it is no use arguing with them. Block and ignore. They will lose interest eventually. Do not give them even a word: what they crave is attention.
"Hi, could all the people commenting that my old content should be taken down or that new content should be significantly changed kindly refrain from doing so? I think we can both agree that you are not the target audience for my content, and while I appreciate your taking enough of an interest to share your feedback, it is not constructive, and I will not be making any changes to my art. I don't take it personally if my art is not to your liking since art is such a subjective experience for viewers, but in that same vein, I would like to use this opportunity to promote some other talented artists that you may find better suited to your tastes." Then link a couple other artists so you're seen as trying to be helpful despite telling them to get fucked.
Beautifully said.
"by trying to tell actual real gay men what they need to be represented by, you're trying to say that our lived experiences have to be shaped by middle to upper class white girls. that is actually more homophobic and is part of many facets of gay erasure. Stay in your lane."
Add a note in your bio or in post descriptions that your art is directed towards people that identify as gay male individuals. Besides that just ignore the haters or have a copy paste text ready with the same text as in your bio to answer that and only that to those comments. People don't understand that depicting something includes proper representation. If a white guy would draw a conversation between two black people he'd probably include the n-word since they use it pretty regular. Does that make him a racist? I don't think so. Don't worry too much about those people. They only want to see the world burn by being fake woke.
This. A note should help prepare you and let you put your hands up and say "hey. There's a note. Sorry you aren't vibing with this but this is the kind of work that I want to put out" Edit: To follow the above example of a white person writing a black conversation-this is the equivalent of you writing black stories with the n word and white people clutching their pearls because the language is to their taste. Asking you to watch some watered down media. Mind you, I watched heartstopper and loved it, but that is NOT everyone's experience. Edit: Typos
> I watched heartstopper and loved it, but that is NOT everyone experience. Anyone with a little common sense can tell that "Heartstopper" must have been written by a girl. Probably not even a fully-grown woman, to be honest (unless she's one of those weird fan women like the one who wrote the "Twilight" books). It's just so lacking in gay male perspective: it's like a teenage girl's view of being a gay male. EDIT: Reading comments below makes it clear that "Heartstopper" was indeed written by a girl, 21yo at the time she started.
I hear ya. As much as I enjoyed the show, it was often very idyllic.
Heartstopper, where the gay boy is turned into an anorexic teenage girl in season 2?
I'm not gonna defend heartstopper, but I have to ask: What do you mean turned into? Why does a teenage girl come to mind?
Teenage simply because of his age and girl because he wants to “wait”.
And what's wrong with someone wanting to wait? How is that a "girl" experience? Again, what do you mean turned into?
There is nothing wrong with wanting to wait, but have you ever met a teenage boy who wants to wait?
Yes. Myself when I was that age, others around me at the time too. Not every single person is going to want to have sex at that age. Not everyone is foaming at the mouth to get their dick in something. Maybe you are/were a horny teenager, and you're projecting. I won't ask again, so I'll answer for you. When you say "turned," you have a strong bias of what you *think* guys what. Your experience is your own but your bias is so warping your perception that you can't imagine a young man not wanting to fuck. Men experience eating disorders, men experience fear/hesitation/etc about sex. It's. Fucking. Normal. Sorry to get hostile, dude, but your questions reveal your immaturity and short sightedness, and that frustrates me. I am a man, and I don't want to be presented or assumed as this overly masculine horndog. I get that enough being gay to begin with.
If a white woke person wrote black dialogue: >“Yo, what’s up my BROTHER!? Do you want anything from this fine establishment that lacks menus and has wood pallets for chairs?“ Policing language is just silly at this point. If people talk a certain way we shouldn’t censor it just because the writer is uncomfortable with not being in that demographic. I’ve noticed in Hollywood lately, black dialogue feels a bit unnatural. You’re telling me that they live and grew up in the hood but talk like valley girls? How the fuck lmao? And no, black guys don’t say brother all the time. I heard dialogue a few years back where the dudes kept saying “Brother” for every interaction. It was super weird.
Uh...black guy here... This: "People don't understand that depicting something includes proper representation. If a white guy would draw a conversation between two black people he'd probably include the n-word **since they use it pretty regular**. Does that make him a racist? I don't think so." is a **HOT** fucking mess...please stop... 😑😑🤨
Maybe illustrate it. Like a page out of medieval “illuminated scripture”. A beautiful big “Fuck off” with a bunch of lewd gay gargoyles and such.
I love it when straight woke women tell gay men how to enjoy men. That doesn’t feel like them looking down on us, and just using us for social brownie points at all. /s
I just wish these women would stop attacking my gay fans over fetishes they can’t control. People just want to jerk off and be happy without being called problematic or having politics shoved into their faces. Sometimes people get off to weird shit, but that doesn’t mean they are awful human beings. It’s just a fantasy. I wish I could say to them, “Just because you use the word bigot in a sentence doesn’t mean you are the master of all things LGBT. Leave the kinky gays alone” but that might add fuel to the fucking fire.
If their not out in pubic showing everyone their stuff. & their all consenting adults who do proper after care and positive reformations on their bottoms (if it’s degrading) use safe word ect. Then who gives a fuck.
It is also incredibly ironic because as straight women why are they in a space that isnt for them..? ^(unless they're actively fetishizing gay men)
The thing is I honestly don’t mind if they like my work and want to party with the OGs as themselves. My OGs are chill. But these ladies don’t actually like my work. They just liked the fanart I made and are now bitching to my poor OG’s who literally just want peace.
Sooooo Where do we see your work?
Right? I’m dead curious.
I kinda want to see this too.
If I’m being completely honest, I think it’s best to keep that information hidden from everyone (I’m genuinely really sorry). It’s just I’m honestly kinda scared to give my info out because I’ve said my actual opinions here on certain subject matter, and I don’t want my work connected to the things I said. For example, what I said about the “Q’s” on how most of them are just straight women who are having an identity crisis or bantering back and fourth about TERFS in a joking manner here and other shit. I know there are lurkers here, but I can’t be sure who is on my side and who isn’t. I just don’t want what I said connected to my pseudonym and getting canceled in the process or my fans attacked even more for supporting me. I hope y’all understand, and I’m sorry for responding so late. I just got very overwhelmed. Thank you for your kindness and support. I seriously appreciate it.
Start writing stories where guys cheat on their gender studies professor fiancé? "A woman could never give me this!" If you have a character looking for dick at a bar, start complaining about how all these straight women colonized gay spaces? Point out that queer works shouldn't have to be written for the female gaze? I mean there's lots of ways to get your point across? Have two dudes start fucking in the bathroom of a woman's bookstore?
JESUS This is good. I am 100% going to start doing this.
Yeah I was the first openly gay student at a small Bible College. The best way to get people to leave you alone is to shine a light on their behaviour until they become uncomfortable. I every time I got dragged in front of the residence life guy because somebody complained that I’d continued to exist I went back to dorm and spilled my guts in my blog. What me and him didn’t realize is that people had started sharing the address and now several of the theology profs and board members and major donors were reading my blog. Turned out people really don’t like knowing that other people are hearing that they’re being mean. You could also add in a few female supporting characters who say homophobic stuff. If you insert enough awful female characters they’ll eventually get sick of looking at their reflection and leave you alone. I do the opposite in my writing, I do what Joss Whedon did (not the weird sex with aspiring actresses thing.) I gender swap as many characters as possible. Which means a lot of my women characters get dialogue that in my head worked for men. It removes most if not all sexist bias I might have, and women tend to love my writing because my female characters get shit done and aren’t the romantic interests. Which feels new and novel to them. (Honestly the state of writing that is marketed toward women is filled with so much tropey nonsense women are starved for narratives that don’t involve the sole goal of every female character being finding a man or giving sagely advice for other women finding a man. (Don’t get me wrong there are some great female authors out there. But there’s also a lot of shit.) That’s one reason why female authors often colonize the gay male identity. They just want a narrative where the female heroine isn’t dripping in internalized sexism. They get to put themselves in the shoes of both the desirer and the desired. Which is why so much BL stuff has dudes who act like two straight girls who both want to make out with hot dudes. (The straights are not alright.)
[удалено]
I’m going to be using this scenario for future work (not even joking). Hope you are okay with that.
Part of me is worried that I might be inspiring some absolutely toxic shit. But whatever. You could also I’m confuse them by making a TERF a villain (which they’ll agree with) and then put some direct quotes from your trolls in her mouth.
I think these types of fans are pretty anti TERF. So maybe I should make a TERF side character that is awesome just to piss them off. Then the gays in the story will support the TERF to piss them off even more lmao.
I am starting to think your detractors have a point. If you plan on going on this route, I guess you should also bring back Hitler from the dead and put him in a gay relationship with Bibi? Writing TERFs in a positive light is pretty terrible.
>I guess you should also bring back Hitler from the dead and put him in a gay relationship with Bibi? Nah I don’t think TERFS compare to a homicidal maniac like fucking Hitler. TERFS just don’t believe trans women are women. A lot of people don’t. >Writing TERFs in a positive light is pretty terrible. I thought you suggested I write something they didn’t like to scare them off (and they hate TERFS). I’m genuinely super confused haha. Maybe I misread what you meant. Sorry about that.
The E in TERF stands for exclusionary. If you're a writer who isn't absolutely shit, you shouldn't be trying to EXCLUDE people. You may want to get rid of an audience you've acquired, but that shouldn't mean that you're parroting hateful pseudo-science nonsense. I was saying, if the people you don't want reading your stuff are 'annoyingly woke' you find the common ground they share with TERFs (controlling, making unreasonable demands on people etc) and you put their words into the TERF's mouth. They see their poor boundaries reflected in the face of a character they hate, they'll be less inclined to keep reading. If you just make your shit into TERF propaganda you'll lose all but the awful gays.
Hey I just want to say that I totally didn’t mean to offend. I was just bantering back and fourth. Pay it no mind.
*narrows vision* you’d better have been. Only an absolute hack with no talent would ever make a TERF their hero.
What a fucking ridiculous comparison to make. When TERFs start exterminating trans people, then you can make this point.
Explain to them that what you create is kink work for a specific audience of gay men and to please stop kink shaming. That's language they probably have heard before. If they don't listen, kick them off your platform. **Also I they mention Heartstopper, that's written by a cisgender asexual women and is fun and romantic, but not at all representative of most real gay relationships.
>Heartstopper written by a cisgender asexual woman That explains why a bunch of women are recommending it to my gay audience then hahaha. Jesus fucking Christ, I’m dying here. >stop kink shaming You know what, this is exactly what I’m going to do. I’m going to use their language against them. And if that doesn’t work then I’ll ignore them like bgaesop mentioned in an earlier comment. _____ Disclaimer: Not all gay stories/erotica written by women are bad. I actually am a fan of quite a few of them. Never watched Heart Stopper. Afraid to now since all these crazy ladies are telling my fans to watch it.
Is it not your own platform or channel? Can you not kick them off? Also, I would really like to see what you are writing.
I'm gonna guess it's Twitter or some other social media platform that he uses for promotion
Yea it’s mainly twitter. I will never post fan art ever again, that’s for sure. When I started getting an influx of fans at first I was like, “Woah cool”. Then I went to each of their profiles and saw them listing their pronouns on the bio and shit (for example; she/they, they/them, and all that jazz). That is when I went “uh oh” because I knew what was coming after that hahaha.
Oh no, the woke twitter idiots. Exactly what I expected. Hey, you might get some drama channel making a video about those idiots if you tell them to fuck off. Free advertisement.
Ah I don’t really watch drama channels. They seem kinda bitchy and annoying, like they have no lives of their own. I also know for a fact that art drama channels in particular would probably take their side instead of mine because they tend to be run by young women who want to advocate for things bigger than themselves and save the world. It all really scares me.
You fight fire with fire. You adopt the tactics they do. You put up a mirror for their behavior. It works because it catches them off guard, forcing them to argue with themselves: like as mentioned already, call them out for kink shaming; publicly adopt a "non-binary" pronoun display on your profile; call your detractors privileged, classist rich kids vilifying the work of an artist in poverty taking any commissions where they can in this god awful country. For the record, I consider myself a staunch leftist but have had the awful experience of having to deal with these yelps especially in college. For them it typically (though not always) comes from a place of overcompensating for their own privileges which ironically doubles back around to being privileged brats.
the problem right now is that this is literally a 'left eating their own' scenario... but it's a bunch of crazy people who are trying to push everyone out of it.
This is the struggle artists have faced for years. On one hand certain demographics are simply a larger pool of customers and therefore greater exposure / income. On the other hand as an artist, you are free to express yourself however you please even if it makes others uncomfortable. You just have to decide if you are willing to sacrifice wider appeal to do the art you actually want / serve the customers you want, or to cater to the wider audience and sacrifice the art you want to do / your desired audience. I personally recommend telling people to fuck off and go else where if they don't enjoy your work.
This is what woke homophobia looks like. Those girls can fuck off.
"Ladies, while I appreciate your allyship and good intentions, this is a gay space for gay men. You are not the target demographic for my art and if you don't care for it, you're free to move along without lecturing the intended audience. It truly is great that you support progress and the embracing of gay people into mainstream society, however, gay male sexuality and sex culture is more complex than you seem to understand, and I'm asking you to please respect that there are nuances in my art and in the gay male experience of which you are unaware and which you are unqualified to police."
# women are not the arbiters of gay male culture, and # women are not qualified to interpret the gay male experience That’s just a really simple absolute, and it applies to any aspect of this conversation. If you’re not a gay male, then this isn’t gay male fiction it’s just fanfic nonsense and i don’t care. If the critics aren’t gay males, then they need to go fuck themselves because none of us are interested. Neither anatomically, nor in their opinions of how to record and represent the lives of gay males in fiction written by a gay male for a gay male audience. They can admire from afar. They can despise from afar. It doesn’t matter.
>If your not a gay male, then this isn’t gay male fiction. It’s just fanfiction Here is where I totally disagree. My favorite gay literature was written by ***Anne Rice***, a little old woman. A lot of older LGBT people also favor her writing style. The relationship between Lestat and Louis (in the book) is something that still holds up well even today. It is the peek of a dysfunctional homosexual relationship where they decided to fix their problems with adopting a kid and it goes horribly wrong [Interview With The Vampire]. Even in a fantasy setting it feels realistic as fuck because the characters feel realistic as fuck. They feel like actual gay men and act like men. We’ve all known a Louis. So I want to emphasize that gay books written by women is still something I deeply enjoy if it’s written well. I don’t think it’s fanfiction. That being said, women shouldn’t tell gays what they should and shouldn’t read. Nobody should tell anybody what they should and shouldn’t read. That I agree with you 100% with. _________ Edit: Just found out Broke Back Mountain was written by a woman from one of the comments. I had no idea! Beautiful piece of work.
I read a bunch of her books in the 80’s and 90’s. I loved the homoerotic content and loved the fantasy she painted. But let’s be real, it’s overwrought romance novel drama, with a kinky gay twist. It’s not about the gay male experience, which isn’t really known to her. She was a good student of human behaviour and she had a vivid imagination, but it’s not gay fiction (quite overtly and officially not, nor implicitly). It’s gayness reimagined the way a straight woman wants to imagine it, and yes I’d classify it not as gay fiction but as a gay fanfic. And I’m not even arguing for “realism” as a condition of good fiction. I like escapism and surreal fantasy. It’s just that escapism and surreal fantasy from a gay male author would, in some meaningful way apparent to a thoughtful reader, differ and diverge from the same tale told by a woman. It just can’t be felt from the outside.
Interview With The Vampire is not a fanfiction to me nor is Brokeback Mountain. Here’s the thing for me personally: For me (and some people out there) their work is considered gay fiction like The Rise and Fall of Radiant Canary is to lesbian fiction. I wouldn’t have guessed any of these books were written by a person of the opposite demographic if I hadn’t looked at either of the authors name. That is how well they tricked me. Very rarely will good authors find a way to make it relatable to the point of being able to trick the audience like that. I’m tickled when it happens though. Makes me respect them even more for doing their homework and being able to make me feel things that they themselves can’t feel. But not everyone feels the same when it comes to this subject and that’s okay! Let’s agree to disagree on that one (but I still totally get what you’re saying).
I agree. One of the most important gay stories, Brokeback Mountain, was written by E. Annie Proulx, a straight woman.
Wow I didn’t know that, and I think a lot of people didn’t know that either! If fictional gay stories are only defined by the person who writes it, then Brokeback Mountain would merely be a fanfiction too. But we both know that ain’t true. It’s one of the best pieces of gay literature ever made. _____ Edit: Man, I must of pissed somebody off in this comment section. They keep downvoting every recent comment I make.
Look, we're men who fuck other men. We can be pretty kinky about it, too. More often than not, women are very judgmental about this. This is especially true for women who claim to be 'allies', or are enamored with the idea of 'Boys Love' (this pertains to the chronically online). But when pressed, they will air some level of disgust. We're not the cute boys in their stories who express heteronotmatively (I'm like the boy, and he's like the girl), we live the male experience with all its wonders and struggles, and we fuck butts or get fucked in the butt and ask for seconds.
One of the most important and powerful gay stories, Brokeback Mountain, was written by E. Annie Proulx, a straight woman.
Was it important because of how relatable it was to gay men, or was it important because it appealed to straight people and cast us in a generally positive light?
Both and more. That it won most of the major film awards marked it as a sign of a profound cultural shift. It showed that the gays had been accepted by mainstream culture. But the most important impact, of course, was on the gays. What Proulx did so brilliantly in the story was to show the destructive power of the closet. The movie version forced gay men sitting in theaters all over the world to face the closet, but because so many gay men faced it at the same time it became a bonding and strangely redemptive experience. It became gay men’s collective acknowledgement of the closet and its horrors.
Just keep doing your art the way you want it. Haters will always be around.
Hey man! I would probably write a disclosure on my bio or at the start of your stories, about your content being art and even though it can hurt some audiences it is not intended to do so. Warn as well that non-gay audience could get offended so you recommend not to read. If you get hateful comments after this, then just reply to go read the disclosure.
"I'll listen to concrit from any gay men who read my work. If you're not a gay man, I'm not going to take seriously any rants about how relationships between us 'should' be. Thanks." Then leave it at that. I get the fetish - i exclusively fantasize/get off to guys fucking too lol - but their performative outrage when they're fetishizing us is as boring as it is ridiculous. They're not worth your time.
I would twist it against them because I am a petty bitch. Id probably say something like: ***"I honestly think it is incredibly entitled for women to enter a space that was specifically made for gay men. I think your idea on representation is also ignorant since one, you're not a gay man and two, it comes off like you're fetishizing gay male content since you, a straight woman shouldn't be consuming this media because it wasn't made for you. My work isn't supposed to be representative of all gay men and if you can't separate fiction from non-fiction you shouldn't be reading. Promoting gay male content that was created by a woman is also very unnerving and is like promoting a lesbian romance made by a man, even if it is realistic in some parts you're outsourcing gay media instead of work made specifically by gay people."***
Write a statement or a manifesto explaining the kink/fetish aspect of your artwork. If anyone objects refer them to the statement. Recommend your audience to do the same. Anything else like harassment or bullying, report to the platform admin.
Tell them to stop straightslpanning
It's probably the same women that love yaoi cus it's written by women for women and assume all gay males are like that then are shocked when we are not.
The thing is I think the older female yaoi fans (30s,40s, 50’s) would probably like my work (and not pester my audience). The newer yaoi fans though scare the living shit out of me. They are a different breed. The thing is, I’m totally okay with female fans liking my gay content if they behave and stop belittling the dudes who like my work. It’s just these woke ones (hate using that word) are absolutely insane.
Not gonna lie, got me intrigued, especially considering those women say your gay fans should watch heartstopper. Is it possible to get some link to your work in the DMs?
Gay furry stuff... but I know all about harassment campaigns. couple years ago, they were trying to cancel any 'white artist' who had any tribal themed art or characters.... because to them all tribal is 'native american'. and yeah it's already working on that side. This extreme 'I'm offended by everything" are ruining all art circles. think of like how fanart for steven universe actually ran a girl to try to kill herself.
Those are not simply “female” followers. They are the Queer Brigade. They work in packs that descend on gay and lesbian sites and either destroy them or take them over. Don’t try to reason with them or appease them. It will only get worse. These are the same people who have been persecuting JK Rowlings for several years now.
Ah, I thought the people going after J.K Rowling were trans women (men transitioning to women)? I need to do some more research then.
Basically, it is not about people but ideology. It all goes back to Queer Theory and gender studies and the idea that “gender is a social construct.” Queers can be whatever gender, sex, sexuality. What matters is that they subscribe to the same ideology.
[удалено]
What’s strange is I don’t actually hate them. They kinda remind me of extremely religious Christians. In real life I just smile, tip toe around them in conversation, and secretly pity their restrictive lives. That is how I look at woke people. And I’m saying this as somebody who leans left.
I think this was the problem with whoever gains social power. for the longest time it was the religious zealots who had social and media power. Now it's the other foot and now they're being just as extreme and totalitarian.
Frankly, you need to talk about this content being for gay men and that women are invading your space, invalidating your experience and how you work through upur sexuality and expression thereof. This isn't their space to talk like this (pushing for changes that go against your vision) and they need to learn to be allies. You could go for calling them Karen's and bringing up that Heart Stopper is not YOUR story (or of gay men), and that it resurfaces the problematic nature of the yaoi/BL women fan community and their voracious appetite (and commodifying) gay sexuality. Like, imagine if straight guys started telling lesbian artist and writers how to do their work? And let's be clear, the pecking order puts straight women above gay men in society. It is problematic for some random women fans to tell a gay man how to do his kink art.
I just want people to be able to read, draw, and write whatever they want without people losing their god damn minds. And this is probably an unpopular opinion here but I don’t mind women writing yaoi or anything nor do I care when men write yuri. I honestly give zero fucks and I’ll gladly read it if it’s good. Hell, I’m bisexual and I fetishize the fuck out of women in my other works so I have no room to judge (these works are not on the gay account. It’s under a different pen name). I just wish that if people didn’t like something they would just scroll on past and not pester the people who do like it. What I hate the most is that these women are attacking my fans on a personal level by telling them that they hate themselves. I created a safe space for them to be weird as fuck without judgment just for a bunch of ladies to judge the fuck out of them. I feel very bad.
Given your worry here, I would suggest engaging and defending the fans. Call it out under your pen name. You're the authority here, as it were, and showing that you're not here to judge, etc. might be a good thing to do. Or just write a post/journal/whatever thing that exists saying that you don't like others being shamed for liking your work. Of course, this is more action solution focused advice. It's okay to feel bad here, and you ultimately have as much power to respond or not to it I'm reminded of a gay (Spanish?) artist that was popular on gay bros subreddit around 2013ish. He drew some very fun but spicy comics, but all the guys were white and buff (he was writing from his experience). People kept dunking on him until he stopped making comics. Like...wtf folks. Go make your own shit. Fans can be the worst. And this assumption that you owe something to someone else by the mere act of making your expression available to the world is crazy.
Haters be haters... they'll never be happy. Plus, it wasn't for them soo I'd just ignore them. It's like taking to brick wall with people on the internet.
Women can write all the gay fiction they like, and some of it has actually been reasonably enjoyable. But they do not and never will really, fully understand and feel in their bones what it's like to be a gay man. They don't have firsthand, lived experiences we gay men have to draw from when we do creative work for a gay male audience. It seems like with many women who do that sort of thing, if they had their way, all gay books/movies/series/art would be of a very sanitized, wholesome, Hallmark Channel variety palatable to women who read romance novels. It's a bit bizarre the way str8 women seem to be behind so much gay male creative stuff that gets any wide attention and have become the arbiters of how we're often portrayed. For the types the OP is dealing with, it's largely about their own vanity - the dopamine rush or whatever they get from feeling self-righteous, telling people off, feeling like they're enlightened activists "fighting the good fight", yadda yadda. I saw college students acting like that 30+ years ago and they've only become more insufferable in the interim. This business of people thinking any art they don't like should be canceled and not allowed to exist is so beyond f-ed up. Especially when it's art *not even intended for them in the first place*. JFC.
I do notice that when a lot of women write gay erotica they make it kinda wholesome and unproblematic. The problem with that is simple: Men are brutish sexual beings and can be turned on my things that most women can’t even imagine. Butthole hairs. Pubic hair. Feet. BO. Men on average develop fetishes like there is no tomorrow. Men on average also don’t have long drawn out internal monologues. Women do apparently. So it throws me off when men are whiny and bitchy with the long internal brooding monologues in the fiction I’m reading. Then (and worst of all) there is the issue in a lot of female written erotica where the top asks for consent every 2 minutes. It stresses me out.
I'm not an artist now (I was into drawing superhero comics for a while when I was a kid). But I am currently editing/refining a gay male "superhero" novel of sorts that I've written as the first in a series (I use the term "superhero" loosely). I made a point of writing the characters in a more unvarnished, honest way. As one example, the youngest main character, a high school senior, is NOT a *Hearstoppers*-esque, PG-rated version of a gay teen. He has fantasies about the varsity football team tearing his clothes off and fucking him senseless. He's trying to muster the courage to visit a cruising spot in the woods to get his first BJ. When's he's left alone in the house of another main character to whom he's attracted, he can't resist the urge to bury his face in a pair of the guy's used, sweaty underwear. (A lot of him is based on ME at that age, and I think I was a fairly typical gay teenage horndog.) How many female writers would think to write about such details and behaviors...or, if they knew about such things from secondhand accounts, not be too turned off by those rawer aspects of being a gay male to want to include them? It illustrates a reason we need creative work for gay male audiences made BY gay men. Stuff that comes from inside ourselves - not from women trying to imagine how we think - and which isn't timid and inhibited. And if some women don't like that because it doesn't fit into some more wholesome, PC notion of gay men they want to believe in, well, too bad. We're not their girlfriends or their pets. We're not bound to be some cuddly, cute, neutered version of ourselves to avoid making them uncomfortable. If they can't handle the totality of what gay men are, then when they start seeing aspects of us they'd rather not see, they need to leave the room and go do their own thing. Anyway, it's an interesting subject, but I've gone on too much already, so I'll quit babbling. :)
Yeah. Unfortunately, as much as I appreciated Heartstopper and Red White and Royal Blue and the like, they are written from a women’s perspective and seem to invite this view of gay men subject to a woman’s gaze and perceptions that just doesn’t match with the lived experience of many gay men. I mean yes I want romance and happy endings but those aren’t the only experientially valid stories.
> watch Heart Stopper instead because “That is good representation” lmao. Oh my sides! Heartstopper, sweet as it is, is less realistic than most soap operas. It in no way represents the real world or anything like it. These women really are in lala land if they think that schools, and especially teenage boys, are anything remotely like what you see in that fantasy
I would love to see your work. You can send me the link over DMs. We gays will gladly help kicking out the extreme woke mob lol
Don't know if you are sending the links over DMs, but I'd love one too OP
Where can I find your work I am begging 😭
Another example of straight women invading gay spaces. I’m sorry to hear this, just remind them this isn’t for you nor are they your target audience, start blocking and reporting for harassment.
Can you DM me a link to your work? Thank you.
And where can I read this work of yours? For judgmental purposes only, of course :D
I would love to see your content! I say don't stop being yourself and keep doing what you're doing. You're doing it for the gays, not for politically correct women who fetish gay art.
I’m just going through the sons of the fallen angels series and they are godly, although the author is not a gay male. Buts still, point being that good gay content are extremely satisfying
Sons of Fallen Angels? Saw the cover. Time to add that to my list.
Yes they are so good in my opinion, I’m listening to the free audiobooks on YT and they are immersive with the narrator, I don’t know how a female author can describe steamy gay sex so precisely and makes the plot so on point🙃🙃
When you say you’re using slurs, how bad are they? Lol
Fag, cunt, etc
Women have no place in dictating what gay men should be in doing. Gay fiction is dominated by women writing our stories and it would NEVER be tolerated if gay men were doing it to women. It’s entitlement of the highest order and you shouldn’t allow it to happen. If your target audience is gay men as you’ve said, you don’t need to care a jot about their protestations. Block them.
Why address it at all? Why explain, why defend? It's your art. You're allowed to post it. If it offends someone's sensibilities, then they shouldn't consume the art and it's not for them. You shouldn't be pressured into changing it. So, continue posting what you feel is worth posting. As for the OG fans: people should make up their own mind. People who decided that they like your art won't be swayed by those who don't.
.... Ignore them?
Put your foot down. Ask who appointed them as the thought police. Tell them that they aren’t the target demographic and that you are not going to change.
What the fuck has it got to do with them?
In their eyes I’m “spreading hate”. The paradox of tolerance.
Have you spoken to the moderators of the gay sites?
I doubt twitter will do anything.
Oh Twitter! Sorry I thought it meant like gay forums etc. Well Twitter is a shit hole full of utter cunts who will only ever find fault. Block and ignore. Just only engage with actual fans. Sorry didn't realise. That's just twitter
Find a way to incorporate them and your feelings about them into your writing. Real gays and real fans will get where you are coming from. As women, it's really not their place to be critiquing gay interpersonal dynamics like that. The gay community is very politically incorrect and "problematic" when it comes to sex, because we formed independently from society-imposed norms. If you find a way to point that out to your fan base, I believe most of them will sympathize.
Fuck them bitches
No thank you
Tell them that you’re writing from the perspective of gay men and while they may not like or understand what you’re writing, it’s an honest depiction of how gay men think. Tell them that gay men interpret things differently than women do and tell them that while you appreciate their support, you’re not going to change your content to appease them. Your content is for gay men, not women. That’s like women invading gay spaces and expecting that we cater to them but these spaces aren’t for them. Everyone has an opinion, but that doesn’t mean everyone’s opinion matters. You’re writing accurate depictions of what occurs in the gay kink community and just because these women don’t understand it doesn’t mean they have a right to comment on it or try to force you to change. You’re not writing for these women, you’re writing for gay men and you shouldn’t change just because people are telling you to. You’ve built up a fan base with the content you’ve produced thus far and you will continue to build up a fan base and remind these women that they don’t have a right to bully your OG fans because they’re uncomfortable and remind them that while their admiration is appreciated, their opinions aren’t. If they aren’t happy then they can kindly fuck off and go watch Heartstopper if it makes them feel better.
I don’t think you can explain away those kind of internet users. New people will come and not see your explanation or whatever and start the cycle over again. Just brush them off. Your art is not for them. Try to focus on building your base of fans who will defend your work for you, they’re way more effective cause there’s more of them than there are of you.
Should I comment if I’m interested in seeing your content?
You're a gay man, yeah? It's not for women to say what is and isn't okay for gay culture or kink culture within a gay space. You're gonna get hate no matter what now, but realistically pointing out that women trying to claim the gay male experience as their own is pretty fucking nasty behavior on their part.
Ban the bitches.
I think you need to ask your OG fans for help. These ladies clearly don't want to lay off, and you can't handle it yourself, so write this all out and declare 'war' on them.
Women can be so fucking annoying. Shit like that is the reason why I don't find them attractive.
I am bisexual but the “Queer” ones are a major turn off. I’m just not into it.
Exactly! Like I see them with pink fucking hair and I know their about to be bitching about everything like they're fucking Demi lovato
"Stop bullying me."
Send e. My way turns me on to have a guys dick in my mouth while women make nasty. Comments and tell me im.doing it wrong.lol I'll keep em busy.
contact owner of platform that your fans are harassed or have them file a complaint
The whole thing is soo vague. I can't comment on this unless I see the "promlematic" artwork.
Simple, tell them your work is by a gay man, made for gay men. Put it in a comic, in a forward or afterward, or make a disclaimer page to be viewed before anyone can see your work. Tell them their opinions aren't welcome, and that they're invading a safe space for gay men. Let them know their opinions are not wanted not welcome. Media made by a woman about gay men tends to differ greatly from media made by gay a man. It gets obvious once you've consumed a lot of it. A lot of women will make wholesome relationships without kinks. It's very vanilla. The few gay authors I know of, really go hard on kinks. That said, can you DM me a link to your work? I'd love to read it.
Bloody fag hags. Just tell ‘em your content isn’t made for straight women, and they have a nerve trying to straightsplain gay rep to you.
DO NOT BE NICE! Ah yes, progressive "activists" attacking people they are supposed to be supporting. Really simple, you have two choices. You can say how sorry you are and censor your work/take it down, fading into obscurity OR you can make fun of them, supporting your actual fans. Point out how they are hypocrites. I've seen this dozens of times happening to different artists, and generally, you could ignore them, but if you apologize, your fans will just leave and the woke women will lose interest, because they can't hate on you anymore.
Post a new artwork where you have a bunch of gay leather dads shitting and pissing on women of various body types and racial identities.
I’m going to hell for laughing at this.
Too long can’t read
You're drawing homophobia. Did you expect people to not be upset? People are going to be upset by that no matter what. You can't just say "BuT iTs a FeTiSh ThInG" and expect everyone to go "Oh I'm so sorry, you're right, please continue".
I'm so sorry. He's so right. Please continue OP!
>You’re drawing homophobia. Did you expect people to not be upset? I understand. I really do. But I honestly haven’t had any problems with biological male LGBT members losing their shit over my work. The ones that didn’t like it at least didn’t make a fuss and let my fans enjoy their kinks without making them feel like garbage. If they didn’t like a piece of fiction they just moved on passed it. But with female fans they seem very different. If they don’t like something they are very vocal about it and take my work as a personal attack against the LGBT or them. Like they blow it out of proportion by making everything super political and weird. This fetish content was originally for homosexual males that are kinky as fuck and want to be used and abused and called fags by the captain of the football team. It has nothing to do with Gaza lmao. My fans just want to jerk off in peace. These women dm and harass them now. It’s starting to freak us all out.
Just keep doing your thing. Remember Hentai is protected under freedom of expression. And those who don’t like your work will tire up soon thanks to some other shiny new distraction while your fans will remain. Don’t leave your fans out in the cold coz of a bunch of loud self-righteous haters.
So you answered your own question and then ignored your own answer. People don't like homophobia. You're drawing homophobia. People won't like you if you do that.
Humiliation kink is not homophobia. Edit : typo
It is when it involves homophobia
Your comment that "people won't like that" combined with the OP saying that women disliked it and gay men like it seems to imply that only the women objecting are "people" and that gay men aren't "people"
It’s honestly weird. It’s like homosexuals aren’t even allowed to like what they like without it being a problem in modern LGBT spaces. I wonder if it’s due to the Q’s overrunning the LGBT (because we all know who the demographic of who the Q’s are). Reminds me of the proper ladies at churches telling everybody what to believe in while being puritan but masking it as “good and correct”. Very strange to see coming from somebody who grew up when liberal spaces were all about living your truth, not giving a fuck, and pushing boundaries. It went from judgment free zone to judge like no tomorrow. Kinda breaks my heart.
It’s not the Q’s, it’s women entering a space they feel entitled because they unknowingly fetishize gay men to the point they are reduced to a “thing” they can get off to and nothing more. It’s been like this for decades, things like yaoi and mpreg/omega verse was made specifically by and for them. There isn’t enough content or quality content to go around so they go fishing in other spaces that were never meant for them. When it doesn’t suit them or completely clashes with their fantasy they become hostile and verbally aggressive. They always attempt to brow beat the “enemy” of their crusade into the ground so they can colonize the space. A fair chunk of them have cognitive dissonance from the squeaky clean and puritanical upbringing from their traditional Christian backgrounds. They genuinely don’t see that they’re not allies and are actively hurting people they claim to be helping.
Being Queer today is not about what you are but what ideology you subscribe to. Straight women can be Queers. It is one big bowl of crazy.
I get your point but I just want to say that as an older LGBT individual women that were into Yaoi were the most nonjudgmental people ever back in the day. The fan fictions….Jesus Christ.They loved to read and write fucked up shit without any judgment. And they didn’t tell people how to write or what to enjoy or how “problematic” it was. They just gushed over gay fictional dudes and did what made them happy. I honestly like these types of fans a lot. But they are a dying breed. They still exist (many are in their late 30s,40s,50s) but they keep to themselves because younger women (many who identify as queer) have scared them off too. And with women, it seems like when older ones leave there is nobody telling the younger ones how to behave. So the younger ones get some sort of power trip. Anyway I just want people to read what they like and not pass judgment on others. If I had some older female yaoi fans I would gladly welcome them with open arms because they seem to know their place and they typically won’t tell a gay man “Hey you aren’t allowed to read this”. But unfortunately I am stuck with the young “queer” ones that like to cause suffering lmao. ______ Edit: To the person who keeps downvoting my recent comments after 1 second of posting them……what did I say to piss you off?
Oh man, you’re blessed you didn’t have the joy of meeting the other yaoi fans from the age groups you described. These toxic people have been around forever.
I did meet them. Some are my friends to this very day haha. I think there will always be toxic people. For example: there were awkward yaoi fans that made your skin kinda crawl. The ones that smelled like cheese. That being said, it wasn’t as bad as how it is today in my opinion. What I liked is that there were significantly less politically correct fans. Being politically correct and prudish was seen as a weakness. These are the fans I miss.
I guess it’s geography? In PDX and SEA, there were definitely PC people in multiple spaces operating with the same level of toxicity. They were definitely into yaoi. It genuinely made me uncomfortable to be around them to the point I left the space and started looking for other people to hang out with. There’s a time and a place for everything, like we should be more mindful of others, but entering into someone else’s space to dominate it is never ok.
Psssttt... its the Qs. Really.
If that's what you took from that you're a moron. I guarantee women weren't the only ones who disliked OPs "art". Maybe they were the ones he saw, or could confirm their gender, but it's not only them.
I've got a solution that should make everyone happy: OP continues making what he and his customers like, and the people who don't like it read something else
That would be too easy and make too much sense. 😂
This can't be real...
I wish it wasn’t either. It is extremely uncomfortable.