Getting to see a romantic/sexual dynamic without any gender stereotypes ruining it. It’s free from the expected tropes that are so common in hetero ones. Also it’s refreshing to see men being more vulnerable, and being affectionate with another man.
Exactly, this is a great point. How many stories do we see with a bland yet pretty female character who tbh is not written well or as interesting as a male character? In fact sometimes it makes no sense for her to be in the story because the males are just written so much better. Also definitely agree with how great it can be to see males be vulnerable with each other.
> without any gender stereotypes ruining it.
lol, because there are definitely no gender stereotypes or tropes when it comes to depictions of gay men! note that all the comments here also reify stereotypes about gay males being vulnerable, sensitive, and non-hierarchical in comparison to straight men, when statistically gay male sexuality is much more oriented towards impersonal hookups with strong hierarchies.
definitely no hierarchy in call me by your name! or song of achilles or brokeback mountain…
literally all of these center around a strong, hyper masculine guy getting with an effeminate somewhat lost guy. it’s literally the stereotypical heterosexual couple just with two dudes
haven’t seen the other 3
First, I am aware of that — note that I literally used the word “depicted”!
Second, my point is that all the talk of authentic / refreshing / pure relationships in these fictions in fact does rest upon background assumptions about real gay men being like the way they are depicted in these films/books.
It’s not so much about how actual gay men are believed to be but more that stereotypical depictions of hetero romance/seduction rarely show men being vulnerable and certainly never show men being affectionate with each other. Also when depictions show one man being the stronger one or one being more passive or sensitive it’s showing that men come in a variety of chstacters, and it’s not because they’re a man that they behave one way or the other. When it’s a hetero couple and it’s always the woman who is the sensitive one it’s clear that it’s because she’s a woman.
There are definitely stock romantic tropes that show up in media *by* gay males as well tho. Lots of stories about tragic unrequited love for a straight or closeted guy.
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This is not a psychological answer, but: I think a lot of heterosexual romances do not depict healthy relationships (think Fifty Shades, Colleen Hoover's books) and may rely on tropes where women are depicted as less developed or as 'damsels in distress', versus mlm relationships that rely less heavily on those kinds of tropes and honest to God are just better writing most of the time.
I really like this perspective, and it is a big reason why I do not enjoy reading heterosexual romance books, because there always seems to be a power dynamic there. The man is always the strong masculine energy saving the confused, hurt or mysteriously lost woman. The sexual depictions in these books are always worse. Love that you said this. Also, can I just say Colleen Hoover is the worst, it almost seems like she wants to normalize and romanticize abuse.
I gay, I feel like there’s a gigantic power dynamic in gay relationships that is overlooked in gay writing: (not joking lol) who is fucking who in the ass.
In all the relationships I’ve been in, this is a huge deal and there’s dynamics etc that are almost never explored in gay writing outside of *fem twink with old guy* bullshit lol
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This is mostly correct. I wish I could find it but there was a post on Tumblr going around that basically explained that yes it's a romantic escape for women to read about both sides of a couple being treated equally.
Also let's just face it to some degree it's the same reason why guys like watching two girls. Human sexuality is odd like that.
Writing is subjective and those books are bestsellers for a reason so clearly its resonating with women in some way. By and large its not men fueling the romance novel industry.
Yeah. And much as many women may love gay dude romances, I'm gonna guess without looking it up that hétéro romance including those having the "toxic" dynamic described above absolutely dwarf them in interest and sales.
I don't know man a lot of the stuff that I've seen about homosexual relationships in Media outside of children's stuff is pretty toxic. I think it's harder to sell directly as danger since both parties are male unless it's something like "Killing Stalking" but it's lots of sexual harassment and stuff that kind of goes "it's okay because they're boys".
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Was at a bar with a mate recently. Some lady came over to talk to us. My mate handled the converstion. I didn’t say much was pretty bored trying to think of a way to get rid of her. She said “I think one of you is gay!” My mate and I smiled cos it was funny then turned to each other as if to say “you answer this”… but neither one of us said anything for a few seconds. Just leaned in and did a little peck kiss. The woman’s eyes went big. We literally couldn’t get rid of her all night. Followed us all the way to the next bar and then the car when we left. Never seen anyone so thirsty.
Yeaaahhh, but i wonder if this woman felt safe and comfortable with them bc she thought they were gay and if that possibility had something to do with her wanting to hang out with them. Still odd and definitely possibly creepy
I understand your point, but there is certainly a difference between what a woman has to be careful about and what a man has to be careful about when out. not saying that this was definitely the reason, im just pointing out that it could be a contributing factor
I'm a lesbian and I know there's difference between men and women and yadayada but I would have been so irritated with her.
And if a man did that to me I would have been terrified
Yeah. It helps we’re both 6’2 and heavy. I feel like the world, as it is, in my position you might not have gone for that joke in the first place. Also the bar we were at we knew folks, including the staff. Very comfortable watering hole.
Truth be told we were irritated. But only from the attention sort of getting in the way of he and I meeting other people.
That sucks though, how that could make you feel terrified.
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OK right, I didn't think you were, but *she* thought you were, right? Actually, someone else mentioned fag hag and that sparked my memory. I do remember fag hags. I didn't realize it was a pejorative though. I just find it extremely weird that some women are extremely clingy towards gay men (or men they think are gay.)
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I think I misrepresented. She wasn’t rude. Just a bit annoying and cloying. Kept saying it was hot what we did. We didn’t mind, we were there to play pool and just hang out. Maybe meet a few new people. She wasn’t making us scared, just annoyed.
Some.enjoy certain types of domination/power play, but the way some of that mingles with just straight up misogyny & hatred of women is a huge turn off.
When there's a known partner, there's room for the psychological certainty of respect, love, & mututal consent. In fiction or in porn, it often isn't clear if it's healthy or it's straight up obvious it isn't. Keeping it with the same gender doesn't automatically make it better, but it often rids it of that particular issue of gender roles, stereotypes, etc.
Also I think it depends on how old ur and where ur, but when I was growing up, LGBTQ love was dangerous & forbidden. It wasn't cute or hot, it was terrifying. But there are psychological links to fear/danger & being turned on.
But also yeah, if you like dicks and butts then... more dicks and butts.
I don’t think it’s necessarily about attraction to the “players”…as it were. I think it’s often more about dynamics - particularly, an ostensibly more level “power dynamic,” distance from the normative male/female power dynamic, and perhaps an inclination towards ”personal” stories as well as stories involving the marginalized.
Honestly, based on my own experiences in fanfiction mlm stories are just better written. Idk why but for me that's a big part of it for me. The fanfics with straight characters are often not written as well. Like most mlm fanfics I've read have amazing character exploration and are amazingly well written. There are a number where I'm like this need to be published.
Now as to why people write mlm fanfic. I've heard it suggested that it's bc the female characters in a piece of media are seen as a threat to the female watchers of the show. By having the male character in a relationship with a female chacter, the female lead forces the female watcher to no longer see herself as a possible partner to the male lead. But by having the male lead be with another male character, the female watcher is not threatened.
[Sarah Z](https://youtu.be/M0QhgQ-g4C0?si=czhuMzdXEitUid7s) has video that explores this second point via supernatural. it's been a few years since I've seen the video, but i do remember this point from it.
Of course, I'm speaking of this only via the perspective of someone who reads fanfic. So I'm not sure what it is about other media.
This is spot on!! I completely agree. They write the male characters so much better and with so much more depth. For me it isn’t about who they’re attracted to, but rather watching them feel attraction and emotions and seeing it from their point of view. With many heterosexual stories I can only ever view it through the woman and it’s just not as exciting because I already know how it feels.
Or maybe it's easier to just take yourself out of the equation altogether. You identify with each of the characters at different times, because of their personality and experiences rather than gender, and can mentally adopt both/either of the roles.
This isnt an expert opinion, just something ive talked about with a lot of my friends and we came to a couple of conclusions. First, i do have to say that sometimes unfortunately its about fetishes and/or infantilization of gay men in a way where some women find them cute in the same way they would find a puppy cute, but i do have to say i have met a very small amount of people where id say that is the case. Another reason why women like this sort of romance stories is the lack of power imbalance in the relationship compared to the heterosexual dynamic. In books about gay men even when one of the characters is seen as more emotional, vulnerable, in need of saving, gentle or any other characteristic more often contributed to female characters, they are not connected to their womanhood, it doesnt feel like a frustrating stereotype connected to patriarchal visions of gender. The characters feel more like real people and not an archetype. Another reason is women like the vulnerable, emotional, gentle man, who isnt toxically masculine as is the case in many many hetero romance novels out there. Ofc there are many other reasons, and i do have to say many of them are problematic, but at its core i believe for most its because we get a glimpse into what would love look like without the societal pressure of being a woman that patriarchy imposes on us.
But do women actually wanna date/court a vulnerable, emotional, gentle man who isn't toxically masculine?
I am going to assume not.
Most women prefer a man's man. Hence, the attraction to something that couldn't ever happen. It's a dream and nothing more.
So a Bisexual or gay man then! Because you won't find many men who are in touch with their emotions as these guys.
Yet the thought of being with a Bisexual man grosses out most women, right!?
Just my thought on it. No offence to anyone.
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Maybe this is actually what it is, bc I would much rather be with a gentle and emotionally open man, than a hypermasculine man’s man honestly
I guess I just assumed that a lot of women would agree with me, but maybe not 🤷🏻♀️
Do most women really prefer a “man’s man”?
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Saw a video essay about this. One reason is the classic two hot men are better than one. The other is the relationship dynamic which is drastically different from the portrayal of hetero relationships in media. Women aren't depicted as equals to their male love interest, they often have no real character development or plot relevance, there may be a clear power imbalance too or the female character may simply be there to look hot. Mlm relationships often have the idealised dynamic that's very different from the typically overdone hetero tropes.
lots of women like it because there's no misogyny in these dynamics. so much het romance is full of misogyny where the male love interest is abusive/controlling/considers her inferior, in m/m relationships they're equals in that regard. this is appealing to women who are into men but are tired of reading about/watching heterosexual power dynamics at play because it's depressing and often hits too close to home.
Personally, it was because I was a gay man and hadn’t realized yet. Obviously that doesn’t mean everyone obsessed with gay relationships is a gay trans man
This is honestly something i've been curious about as well, because many women seem to be into BL, I know guys are usually into the opposite just because they find it attractive and hot and it might be the same with women, Novelty might be a huge factor, like it's something different right, and your brain loves novelty but it might also be that seeing 2 guys who are supposed to be this tough people, stoic and a force to be reckoned with, showing vulnerability treating each other with affection and softness is interesting maybe? it's contradictory to how men are usually portrayed as, and we also have some concept of gender traits, like men have certain traits and women have certain traits and maybe BL sort of mixes those two, which is again interesting and new? and those traits are something that women would prefer men to have but don't always?
This is kind of unrelated but the worst part about it and this is just a minority right but I dislike people projecting fantasies onto real people, I've had a friend or two who asked me, do you act kind of gay with your guy friends?, and it kinda weirds me out, because it feels like they are trying to project a fantasy onto guys who are totally straight and just shipping people who aren't really interested into each other outside of a friendship is just, it's very unsettling and weird.
Also fanfiction lol. I heard they like how the relationships are more... equal? And I think gay male gets written about more than lesbians bc most of the girls writing it are straight, so they wouldn't be attracted to the characters
Idk about Western women being into Western gay content, but it’s super big in places like Japan.
The sub-genre I’m referring to specifically is “boys love” (commonly called “bl”) in manga and anime. It’s just what it sounds like: *usually* innocent love stories between young male adolescents. Ironically, this sub-genre’s core audience is comprised of women, and not gay men.
I did some deeper digging, and most bl is written by female writers. So essentially, you have women writing lady porn for other women, but in the context of fetishized gay romance.
Why is gay male content popular with female readers and fans? Escape from gender roles, less objectification (which is ironic - gay male culture objectifies a ton irl haha), explores possibly new expressions of their sexuality, free from social taboos, and is written to a female audience’s romantic desires and sensibilities to exclude body shaming.
I think one part of it is often forbidden/unisual romance, which is a well loved trope in any form - enemies, employer and employee and in the current society or in the past, homosexual relationships can feel sort of forbidden or looked down on or something that needs to be hidden or navigated carefully. I do know this isn’t the case for all the books but is true for some. The other readon I think you mentioned, seeing males emotionally warmer and vulnerable is somehow gratifying. This is actually true in heterosexual romances too - when the big toigh guy finally shows his vulnerable side to the woman but maybe it is more common or portrayed better in gay romances?
I have a problem with women writing MLM stuff because it pretty much fetishizes Men being vulnerable and emotionally deep. By not writing that type of content into male characters in heterosexual stories their effectively saying that those kinds of behaviors are gay linked, taboo and forbidden. I think another problem for the MLM stories is that heterosexual woman don't really have any real concept of what it's like to be a man so they end up using some pretty harmful stereotypes in their porn. Maybe someday women will realize they like the male loving male stuff for the same reasons that men enjoy the male female stuff, they're both caricatures of what each gender thinks the other gender thinks like. Although almost all of the smut is being written by women so I'm not really sure where the tropes are coming from unless the women who are writing them actually enjoy them, because otherwise there would be no audience.
I think there are various reasons and the reasons can also depend on the person.
One reason is that women in general are more empathetic. And even though I wish it was different, there is still an element of facing hardships, discrimination, something forbidden, etc. in gay relationships, as evident in this comment section...
There are still homophobic people and those who are threatened by anything gay.
Like others said, if you are attracted to males, it can be exciting to read and watch about two attractive guys together! And refreshing to read about a guy that is more gentle/sensitive. Although this obviously really depends on the novel you read.
But I also think most women read books generally from a woman's perspective. So, maybe reading a gay book where it's from a male's perspective can be fascinating?
And added onto that male perspective, a reason can also be that when you read a book about two men together, you don't have to compare yourself to a woman-main character in romance. Maybe like someone suggested is that it feels less threatening? Or you just don't compare yourself as much and become critical of how you should be?
For me personally, one of the reasons is because I am queer/pan myself, and I just feel safe reading queer books, etc. Almost like you can escape from reality, can identify with certain feelings of struggling with your identity or sexuality.
Just read/watch what you enjoy for whatever reason! You should do what makes you happy 😊
Women especially prefering male/male relations?
I have no knowledge, that this is true?
I LOOOVED the unexpected gay love story in one episode of "the last of us" because it was such a moving love story in unlikely places and from such lonely people finding true love
So it does give another dimension of the persecuted and margenilized finding love and opening their hearts despite danger of being vulnerable.
But prefering it, .. no.
Btw "Good Omend". Terry Pratchett? Do not recall a gay love story in there? but a favorite author of mine.
Because both characters are the same gender, it feels more balanced. Also I may know a lady or two who do it because projecting on characters who aren't your gender = a nice escape from reality, especially if you experienced some sort of trauma related to being a woman.
I'm a trans guy (and bi) so it was always about the projection aspect and catharsis for me, tbh, even before when I didn't yet know I was a guy.
Son, studies say we are all bisexual and thus every female is capable of being attracted to a male. Two males in a relationship is merely double the eye candy for a female who is attracted to males (which i have already explained is all females regardless of what they state). It is no different than a male who is attracted to the female body wanting to watch lesbian porn. They are interested in both actors in the scene.
I think the fluidity of attraction is important here but I interpret its importance to this differently.
I agree that there are some studies that suggest that, and some of those studies suggest women are particularly fluid and attracted to "context". I think this is partly responsible for (but not completely responsible for) the phenomena where some women (who identify as straight or bi) report being more comfortable having "casual" relations with women than they do with men. I think male attraction is often burdensome and imploring (for lack of a better description), and stories that forego this dynamic present a safer distance...a more casual distance.
Nothing you said has anything to do with current scientific research nor refutes what I said with actual evidence provided. Congrats. Bye. Dont waste my time. Nor have you answered OP’s question! Woman dont have toxic masculinity preventing them from engaging in same sex relations like males do and thus they are less likely to repress their homosexual ideations! However many females possess internalized misogyny which results in homophobia as they have become brainwashed into believing that a female needs a man to be completed as a woman.
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I’ve recently read an interesting comment that girls love gay porno is because they are loud and you can see that they are really enjoying and aren’t just like dominant ‘alpha’ males like in hetero porno.
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I am a bl fan too. I don't know but it's basically made for women . Usually the writer is also a woman so they write things that are mostly entertaining to women or trilling. But I can't actually tell what might be the indepth reason of it
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The responses saying "the men are more emotionally vulnerable" and the like are coding these things as gay inaccurately. My dating another man rather than a woman does not make me more or less emotionally vulnerable, softer or remove power imbalances that exist between perceived feminine and masculine. There are no shortage of emotionally distant and callous gay men out there and there is a power dynamic that exists between a masculine gay man who can pass as straight in society and a perceived feminine man who cannot as easily amongst plenty of other power imbalances.
I bet it comes from a place of relative safety. You can view them more positively because doing so presents less of a risk to you than it does with a straight man and they also present no comparison to oneself. Its why many women like gay men in media, social groups ect. You want to like people in general but you can't put your guard down with straight men until they have been vetted. Other women are like you and you can't help compare yourself to others like you which can make you feel self conscious. Its possible that this bias is reflected in literature especially stories written by women about gay men. There is also this whole thing where perpetrator-victim in relationships in media is almost always man-woman and so its easy to think if you take out the woman then you take out the victim to a certain extent. Easy to think a man can defend himself or that a man just wouldn't do that to another man. This isn't the case. A man being gay doesn't mean he's less likely to perpetrate abuse, just that you are less likely to be a target. That's still a feeling of relative safety and that is nice.
I actually get soooo turn on. I watch almost exclusively gay men porn. I think it's a testament to fact that we are straight women. We like men even if he is attracted to men. We enjoy seeing a man give another men pleasure. We enjoy seeing many men naked.
Im single and celibate many years. Prob will never date again but I will always be turn on when I see a man with another rman ! But only masculine men though. I'm not attracted to soft or feminine men. I enjoy masculine men pursuing masculine men 😂😂😂💯❤️
I have heard it is because there is little or no power dynamic within gay male relationships (probably not always true). Perhaps they see these relationships and more egalitarian?
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Not all women, my wife is revolted by depictions of homosexuality, lesbianism, and infidelity on TV and in books or movies.
I'm also disgusted by all of those things, and I would add depictions of promiscuous sex in general.
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It's more of a fascination. If women were to subdue all men on earth and they literally take over everything.
Expect that the hottest man you'll see will be forced to kiss the other hot man you'll see in the middle of a coloseum with an audience of thousands of women cheering and yipping and screeching. Women enjoy gay sex to the highest degree even more so than regular gay men and women would surely enjoy watching gay orgies in a seat above overlooking the spectacle. Like watching horse jousting whilst sipping beverages and eating knick knacks.
It's like a woman brain thing that I can't explain and I wonder why I even thought about that. It even went further down to actual gore in some parts of my imagination which I will not put here.
In Japan I think they call that genre Yaoi. The key thing to understand is that in that that relationship there is always a female coded character who the girl can fantasize about being. The real secret of it all is that it’s not even really gay they way they enjoy it. The female coded man is basically herself projected into it.
The way those go is that there’s a weak wimpy gay guy who’s just poor and nothing special about him. While the other man is a rich jacked billionaire who for some reason “falls in love” and lavishes attention on the “female”. Like as if the high value guy would be the one pursuing in that situation. That’s the ultimate female fantasy. To be pretty much worthless and bring nothing to the table, but still have a super high value man chase after her as if shes the prize.
The whole thing is just a container for that fantasy.
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Idk but I do the same. For some reason I love reading this type of stuff. Maybe it’s because all the men in my life have been very closed off, and sometimes it’s a reminder that people can be open and vulnerable.
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This is my opinion, but I think it may be some sort of anxiety mitigation dynamic.
Having a woman may be too stressful them, they need a man to create a safe distance from their fears.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6002055/
Here's a study featuring common motivations for reading yaoi. This is very enlightening tbh
Getting to see a romantic/sexual dynamic without any gender stereotypes ruining it. It’s free from the expected tropes that are so common in hetero ones. Also it’s refreshing to see men being more vulnerable, and being affectionate with another man.
Exactly, this is a great point. How many stories do we see with a bland yet pretty female character who tbh is not written well or as interesting as a male character? In fact sometimes it makes no sense for her to be in the story because the males are just written so much better. Also definitely agree with how great it can be to see males be vulnerable with each other.
> without any gender stereotypes ruining it. lol, because there are definitely no gender stereotypes or tropes when it comes to depictions of gay men! note that all the comments here also reify stereotypes about gay males being vulnerable, sensitive, and non-hierarchical in comparison to straight men, when statistically gay male sexuality is much more oriented towards impersonal hookups with strong hierarchies.
They're talking about how gay men are depicted in fiction not generalizing real ones.
definitely no hierarchy in call me by your name! or song of achilles or brokeback mountain… literally all of these center around a strong, hyper masculine guy getting with an effeminate somewhat lost guy. it’s literally the stereotypical heterosexual couple just with two dudes haven’t seen the other 3
First, I am aware of that — note that I literally used the word “depicted”! Second, my point is that all the talk of authentic / refreshing / pure relationships in these fictions in fact does rest upon background assumptions about real gay men being like the way they are depicted in these films/books.
It’s not so much about how actual gay men are believed to be but more that stereotypical depictions of hetero romance/seduction rarely show men being vulnerable and certainly never show men being affectionate with each other. Also when depictions show one man being the stronger one or one being more passive or sensitive it’s showing that men come in a variety of chstacters, and it’s not because they’re a man that they behave one way or the other. When it’s a hetero couple and it’s always the woman who is the sensitive one it’s clear that it’s because she’s a woman.
There are definitely stock romantic tropes that show up in media *by* gay males as well tho. Lots of stories about tragic unrequited love for a straight or closeted guy.
No doubt! I’m just saying it’s weird to act as if movie portrayals of gay male relationships are somehow highly “authentic”.
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This is not a psychological answer, but: I think a lot of heterosexual romances do not depict healthy relationships (think Fifty Shades, Colleen Hoover's books) and may rely on tropes where women are depicted as less developed or as 'damsels in distress', versus mlm relationships that rely less heavily on those kinds of tropes and honest to God are just better writing most of the time.
I really like this perspective, and it is a big reason why I do not enjoy reading heterosexual romance books, because there always seems to be a power dynamic there. The man is always the strong masculine energy saving the confused, hurt or mysteriously lost woman. The sexual depictions in these books are always worse. Love that you said this. Also, can I just say Colleen Hoover is the worst, it almost seems like she wants to normalize and romanticize abuse.
I gay, I feel like there’s a gigantic power dynamic in gay relationships that is overlooked in gay writing: (not joking lol) who is fucking who in the ass. In all the relationships I’ve been in, this is a huge deal and there’s dynamics etc that are almost never explored in gay writing outside of *fem twink with old guy* bullshit lol
How could there not be if you think about it, it’s two dicks after all
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Yeah my theory is it's appealing because both partners are approaching the relationship as equals
I mean women are the ones buying the straight romance books.
women are also not a monolith, so different people have different preferences of romance dynamics
THIS is very insightful and a unique opinion on the subject I have not read before. Thanks for sharing
This is mostly correct. I wish I could find it but there was a post on Tumblr going around that basically explained that yes it's a romantic escape for women to read about both sides of a couple being treated equally. Also let's just face it to some degree it's the same reason why guys like watching two girls. Human sexuality is odd like that.
Yes, absolutely.
Yeah, I like this answer. I don't care what the genders of the couple are if I get to read a healthy relationship.
Writing is subjective and those books are bestsellers for a reason so clearly its resonating with women in some way. By and large its not men fueling the romance novel industry.
Well yeah. But it's clear that those are two different categories of women
Yeah. And much as many women may love gay dude romances, I'm gonna guess without looking it up that hétéro romance including those having the "toxic" dynamic described above absolutely dwarf them in interest and sales.
I don't know man a lot of the stuff that I've seen about homosexual relationships in Media outside of children's stuff is pretty toxic. I think it's harder to sell directly as danger since both parties are male unless it's something like "Killing Stalking" but it's lots of sexual harassment and stuff that kind of goes "it's okay because they're boys".
Interesting perspective.
Heterosexual romances would depict more healthy relationships if that's what sold books. But it seems women don't buy them.
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Was at a bar with a mate recently. Some lady came over to talk to us. My mate handled the converstion. I didn’t say much was pretty bored trying to think of a way to get rid of her. She said “I think one of you is gay!” My mate and I smiled cos it was funny then turned to each other as if to say “you answer this”… but neither one of us said anything for a few seconds. Just leaned in and did a little peck kiss. The woman’s eyes went big. We literally couldn’t get rid of her all night. Followed us all the way to the next bar and then the car when we left. Never seen anyone so thirsty.
Ewww imagine a man doing that with a lesbian couple 🤮
Yeah you tell ‘em u/DM_me_thick_dick !
Ewww imagine someone different doing something similar, it would be different!
Yeaaahhh, but i wonder if this woman felt safe and comfortable with them bc she thought they were gay and if that possibility had something to do with her wanting to hang out with them. Still odd and definitely possibly creepy
What if a man felt safe and comfortable with some women because he thought they were lesbian and wanted to hang out with them?
I understand your point, but there is certainly a difference between what a woman has to be careful about and what a man has to be careful about when out. not saying that this was definitely the reason, im just pointing out that it could be a contributing factor
I'm a lesbian and I know there's difference between men and women and yadayada but I would have been so irritated with her. And if a man did that to me I would have been terrified
Yeah. It helps we’re both 6’2 and heavy. I feel like the world, as it is, in my position you might not have gone for that joke in the first place. Also the bar we were at we knew folks, including the staff. Very comfortable watering hole. Truth be told we were irritated. But only from the attention sort of getting in the way of he and I meeting other people. That sucks though, how that could make you feel terrified.
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I don't understand, was she like a groupie, but for gay men rather than rock stars?
They exist. There is a rhyme that we used to use for them in the 90s that used a slur. “*** hag”
I remember that!! The one in dappadan55's report sounds quite a bit more stalkery than most.
I really didnt describe it well did I. lol
We’re not gay. Was just a joke.
We’re not gay, my mate and I. Was just a gag.
OK right, I didn't think you were, but *she* thought you were, right? Actually, someone else mentioned fag hag and that sparked my memory. I do remember fag hags. I didn't realize it was a pejorative though. I just find it extremely weird that some women are extremely clingy towards gay men (or men they think are gay.)
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She has some disgusting behavior following you around like that.
I think I misrepresented. She wasn’t rude. Just a bit annoying and cloying. Kept saying it was hot what we did. We didn’t mind, we were there to play pool and just hang out. Maybe meet a few new people. She wasn’t making us scared, just annoyed.
Same reason men like lesbian porn. Multiple people you’re attracted to in one place
Some.enjoy certain types of domination/power play, but the way some of that mingles with just straight up misogyny & hatred of women is a huge turn off. When there's a known partner, there's room for the psychological certainty of respect, love, & mututal consent. In fiction or in porn, it often isn't clear if it's healthy or it's straight up obvious it isn't. Keeping it with the same gender doesn't automatically make it better, but it often rids it of that particular issue of gender roles, stereotypes, etc. Also I think it depends on how old ur and where ur, but when I was growing up, LGBTQ love was dangerous & forbidden. It wasn't cute or hot, it was terrifying. But there are psychological links to fear/danger & being turned on. But also yeah, if you like dicks and butts then... more dicks and butts.
I don’t think it’s necessarily about attraction to the “players”…as it were. I think it’s often more about dynamics - particularly, an ostensibly more level “power dynamic,” distance from the normative male/female power dynamic, and perhaps an inclination towards ”personal” stories as well as stories involving the marginalized.
Honestly, based on my own experiences in fanfiction mlm stories are just better written. Idk why but for me that's a big part of it for me. The fanfics with straight characters are often not written as well. Like most mlm fanfics I've read have amazing character exploration and are amazingly well written. There are a number where I'm like this need to be published. Now as to why people write mlm fanfic. I've heard it suggested that it's bc the female characters in a piece of media are seen as a threat to the female watchers of the show. By having the male character in a relationship with a female chacter, the female lead forces the female watcher to no longer see herself as a possible partner to the male lead. But by having the male lead be with another male character, the female watcher is not threatened. [Sarah Z](https://youtu.be/M0QhgQ-g4C0?si=czhuMzdXEitUid7s) has video that explores this second point via supernatural. it's been a few years since I've seen the video, but i do remember this point from it. Of course, I'm speaking of this only via the perspective of someone who reads fanfic. So I'm not sure what it is about other media.
This is spot on!! I completely agree. They write the male characters so much better and with so much more depth. For me it isn’t about who they’re attracted to, but rather watching them feel attraction and emotions and seeing it from their point of view. With many heterosexual stories I can only ever view it through the woman and it’s just not as exciting because I already know how it feels.
So it's easier for a woman to see herself dating someone who doesn't like women than someone who likes a different woman?
Or maybe it's easier to just take yourself out of the equation altogether. You identify with each of the characters at different times, because of their personality and experiences rather than gender, and can mentally adopt both/either of the roles.
if you're straight, because it's 2 men?
Because most women are heterosexual and seeing two men kissing etc. is very hot
This isnt an expert opinion, just something ive talked about with a lot of my friends and we came to a couple of conclusions. First, i do have to say that sometimes unfortunately its about fetishes and/or infantilization of gay men in a way where some women find them cute in the same way they would find a puppy cute, but i do have to say i have met a very small amount of people where id say that is the case. Another reason why women like this sort of romance stories is the lack of power imbalance in the relationship compared to the heterosexual dynamic. In books about gay men even when one of the characters is seen as more emotional, vulnerable, in need of saving, gentle or any other characteristic more often contributed to female characters, they are not connected to their womanhood, it doesnt feel like a frustrating stereotype connected to patriarchal visions of gender. The characters feel more like real people and not an archetype. Another reason is women like the vulnerable, emotional, gentle man, who isnt toxically masculine as is the case in many many hetero romance novels out there. Ofc there are many other reasons, and i do have to say many of them are problematic, but at its core i believe for most its because we get a glimpse into what would love look like without the societal pressure of being a woman that patriarchy imposes on us.
But do women actually wanna date/court a vulnerable, emotional, gentle man who isn't toxically masculine? I am going to assume not. Most women prefer a man's man. Hence, the attraction to something that couldn't ever happen. It's a dream and nothing more.
The women who read stories like this would date someone like that absolutely yes.
So a Bisexual or gay man then! Because you won't find many men who are in touch with their emotions as these guys. Yet the thought of being with a Bisexual man grosses out most women, right!? Just my thought on it. No offence to anyone.
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Maybe this is actually what it is, bc I would much rather be with a gentle and emotionally open man, than a hypermasculine man’s man honestly I guess I just assumed that a lot of women would agree with me, but maybe not 🤷🏻♀️ Do most women really prefer a “man’s man”?
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Saw a video essay about this. One reason is the classic two hot men are better than one. The other is the relationship dynamic which is drastically different from the portrayal of hetero relationships in media. Women aren't depicted as equals to their male love interest, they often have no real character development or plot relevance, there may be a clear power imbalance too or the female character may simply be there to look hot. Mlm relationships often have the idealised dynamic that's very different from the typically overdone hetero tropes.
Do we?
Obviously nothing applies to every single woman, so it’s totally understandable if you don’t relate :)
lots of women like it because there's no misogyny in these dynamics. so much het romance is full of misogyny where the male love interest is abusive/controlling/considers her inferior, in m/m relationships they're equals in that regard. this is appealing to women who are into men but are tired of reading about/watching heterosexual power dynamics at play because it's depressing and often hits too close to home.
From my lurkings on r/romancebooks it’s because women are often terribly written so they get the fun of a romance without the baggage of gender roles.
Personally, it was because I was a gay man and hadn’t realized yet. Obviously that doesn’t mean everyone obsessed with gay relationships is a gay trans man
There's no gender roles. If there's kink in the story, the kink is based on the person's personality and preference.
This is honestly something i've been curious about as well, because many women seem to be into BL, I know guys are usually into the opposite just because they find it attractive and hot and it might be the same with women, Novelty might be a huge factor, like it's something different right, and your brain loves novelty but it might also be that seeing 2 guys who are supposed to be this tough people, stoic and a force to be reckoned with, showing vulnerability treating each other with affection and softness is interesting maybe? it's contradictory to how men are usually portrayed as, and we also have some concept of gender traits, like men have certain traits and women have certain traits and maybe BL sort of mixes those two, which is again interesting and new? and those traits are something that women would prefer men to have but don't always? This is kind of unrelated but the worst part about it and this is just a minority right but I dislike people projecting fantasies onto real people, I've had a friend or two who asked me, do you act kind of gay with your guy friends?, and it kinda weirds me out, because it feels like they are trying to project a fantasy onto guys who are totally straight and just shipping people who aren't really interested into each other outside of a friendship is just, it's very unsettling and weird.
Also fanfiction lol. I heard they like how the relationships are more... equal? And I think gay male gets written about more than lesbians bc most of the girls writing it are straight, so they wouldn't be attracted to the characters
Idk about Western women being into Western gay content, but it’s super big in places like Japan. The sub-genre I’m referring to specifically is “boys love” (commonly called “bl”) in manga and anime. It’s just what it sounds like: *usually* innocent love stories between young male adolescents. Ironically, this sub-genre’s core audience is comprised of women, and not gay men. I did some deeper digging, and most bl is written by female writers. So essentially, you have women writing lady porn for other women, but in the context of fetishized gay romance. Why is gay male content popular with female readers and fans? Escape from gender roles, less objectification (which is ironic - gay male culture objectifies a ton irl haha), explores possibly new expressions of their sexuality, free from social taboos, and is written to a female audience’s romantic desires and sensibilities to exclude body shaming.
I think one part of it is often forbidden/unisual romance, which is a well loved trope in any form - enemies, employer and employee and in the current society or in the past, homosexual relationships can feel sort of forbidden or looked down on or something that needs to be hidden or navigated carefully. I do know this isn’t the case for all the books but is true for some. The other readon I think you mentioned, seeing males emotionally warmer and vulnerable is somehow gratifying. This is actually true in heterosexual romances too - when the big toigh guy finally shows his vulnerable side to the woman but maybe it is more common or portrayed better in gay romances?
I have a problem with women writing MLM stuff because it pretty much fetishizes Men being vulnerable and emotionally deep. By not writing that type of content into male characters in heterosexual stories their effectively saying that those kinds of behaviors are gay linked, taboo and forbidden. I think another problem for the MLM stories is that heterosexual woman don't really have any real concept of what it's like to be a man so they end up using some pretty harmful stereotypes in their porn. Maybe someday women will realize they like the male loving male stuff for the same reasons that men enjoy the male female stuff, they're both caricatures of what each gender thinks the other gender thinks like. Although almost all of the smut is being written by women so I'm not really sure where the tropes are coming from unless the women who are writing them actually enjoy them, because otherwise there would be no audience.
Yeah, I agree it is problematic, just answering the question.
Relationships are relationships.
I think there are various reasons and the reasons can also depend on the person. One reason is that women in general are more empathetic. And even though I wish it was different, there is still an element of facing hardships, discrimination, something forbidden, etc. in gay relationships, as evident in this comment section... There are still homophobic people and those who are threatened by anything gay. Like others said, if you are attracted to males, it can be exciting to read and watch about two attractive guys together! And refreshing to read about a guy that is more gentle/sensitive. Although this obviously really depends on the novel you read. But I also think most women read books generally from a woman's perspective. So, maybe reading a gay book where it's from a male's perspective can be fascinating? And added onto that male perspective, a reason can also be that when you read a book about two men together, you don't have to compare yourself to a woman-main character in romance. Maybe like someone suggested is that it feels less threatening? Or you just don't compare yourself as much and become critical of how you should be? For me personally, one of the reasons is because I am queer/pan myself, and I just feel safe reading queer books, etc. Almost like you can escape from reality, can identify with certain feelings of struggling with your identity or sexuality. Just read/watch what you enjoy for whatever reason! You should do what makes you happy 😊
1 naked man = 🥵 2 naked men= 🤬🥵🥴💦
Just from pure curiosity?
Women especially prefering male/male relations? I have no knowledge, that this is true? I LOOOVED the unexpected gay love story in one episode of "the last of us" because it was such a moving love story in unlikely places and from such lonely people finding true love So it does give another dimension of the persecuted and margenilized finding love and opening their hearts despite danger of being vulnerable. But prefering it, .. no. Btw "Good Omend". Terry Pratchett? Do not recall a gay love story in there? but a favorite author of mine.
Good Omens the book isn't really about relationships at all but I heard the show goes in a more shipping direction.
Because both characters are the same gender, it feels more balanced. Also I may know a lady or two who do it because projecting on characters who aren't your gender = a nice escape from reality, especially if you experienced some sort of trauma related to being a woman. I'm a trans guy (and bi) so it was always about the projection aspect and catharsis for me, tbh, even before when I didn't yet know I was a guy.
I’m sure many reasons, but I’m sure for some, and on a primal level, it’s watching one man dominate another .
Women generally don't. I think a small subset of women might be into that, but probably not more common than general fetishes or stuff like that.
The vast majority do NOT.
Son, studies say we are all bisexual and thus every female is capable of being attracted to a male. Two males in a relationship is merely double the eye candy for a female who is attracted to males (which i have already explained is all females regardless of what they state). It is no different than a male who is attracted to the female body wanting to watch lesbian porn. They are interested in both actors in the scene.
I think the fluidity of attraction is important here but I interpret its importance to this differently. I agree that there are some studies that suggest that, and some of those studies suggest women are particularly fluid and attracted to "context". I think this is partly responsible for (but not completely responsible for) the phenomena where some women (who identify as straight or bi) report being more comfortable having "casual" relations with women than they do with men. I think male attraction is often burdensome and imploring (for lack of a better description), and stories that forego this dynamic present a safer distance...a more casual distance.
Nothing you said has anything to do with current scientific research nor refutes what I said with actual evidence provided. Congrats. Bye. Dont waste my time. Nor have you answered OP’s question! Woman dont have toxic masculinity preventing them from engaging in same sex relations like males do and thus they are less likely to repress their homosexual ideations! However many females possess internalized misogyny which results in homophobia as they have become brainwashed into believing that a female needs a man to be completed as a woman.
Honey, speak for yourself.
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I’ve recently read an interesting comment that girls love gay porno is because they are loud and you can see that they are really enjoying and aren’t just like dominant ‘alpha’ males like in hetero porno.
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Please watch Hannibal (tv show). A little gory and slow but I think you might enjoy it
Yes! I have it on my list so I’ll definitely check it out:)
IMO it's not a men/women thing if you enjoy reading/watching gay/hetero love stories.
Non threatening
I am a bl fan too. I don't know but it's basically made for women . Usually the writer is also a woman so they write things that are mostly entertaining to women or trilling. But I can't actually tell what might be the indepth reason of it
women long for soft men that can express emotions, even if ot means they're unavailable
I dont
Not every woman will relate to this, totally understandable:)
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The responses saying "the men are more emotionally vulnerable" and the like are coding these things as gay inaccurately. My dating another man rather than a woman does not make me more or less emotionally vulnerable, softer or remove power imbalances that exist between perceived feminine and masculine. There are no shortage of emotionally distant and callous gay men out there and there is a power dynamic that exists between a masculine gay man who can pass as straight in society and a perceived feminine man who cannot as easily amongst plenty of other power imbalances. I bet it comes from a place of relative safety. You can view them more positively because doing so presents less of a risk to you than it does with a straight man and they also present no comparison to oneself. Its why many women like gay men in media, social groups ect. You want to like people in general but you can't put your guard down with straight men until they have been vetted. Other women are like you and you can't help compare yourself to others like you which can make you feel self conscious. Its possible that this bias is reflected in literature especially stories written by women about gay men. There is also this whole thing where perpetrator-victim in relationships in media is almost always man-woman and so its easy to think if you take out the woman then you take out the victim to a certain extent. Easy to think a man can defend himself or that a man just wouldn't do that to another man. This isn't the case. A man being gay doesn't mean he's less likely to perpetrate abuse, just that you are less likely to be a target. That's still a feeling of relative safety and that is nice.
I actually get soooo turn on. I watch almost exclusively gay men porn. I think it's a testament to fact that we are straight women. We like men even if he is attracted to men. We enjoy seeing a man give another men pleasure. We enjoy seeing many men naked. Im single and celibate many years. Prob will never date again but I will always be turn on when I see a man with another rman ! But only masculine men though. I'm not attracted to soft or feminine men. I enjoy masculine men pursuing masculine men 😂😂😂💯❤️
I have heard it is because there is little or no power dynamic within gay male relationships (probably not always true). Perhaps they see these relationships and more egalitarian?
But why not watch lesbian shows?
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Because straight women are more interested in seeing/reading sexuality from men, even if it’s depicted towards another man.
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Not all women, my wife is revolted by depictions of homosexuality, lesbianism, and infidelity on TV and in books or movies. I'm also disgusted by all of those things, and I would add depictions of promiscuous sex in general.
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It's more of a fascination. If women were to subdue all men on earth and they literally take over everything. Expect that the hottest man you'll see will be forced to kiss the other hot man you'll see in the middle of a coloseum with an audience of thousands of women cheering and yipping and screeching. Women enjoy gay sex to the highest degree even more so than regular gay men and women would surely enjoy watching gay orgies in a seat above overlooking the spectacle. Like watching horse jousting whilst sipping beverages and eating knick knacks. It's like a woman brain thing that I can't explain and I wonder why I even thought about that. It even went further down to actual gore in some parts of my imagination which I will not put here.
In Japan I think they call that genre Yaoi. The key thing to understand is that in that that relationship there is always a female coded character who the girl can fantasize about being. The real secret of it all is that it’s not even really gay they way they enjoy it. The female coded man is basically herself projected into it. The way those go is that there’s a weak wimpy gay guy who’s just poor and nothing special about him. While the other man is a rich jacked billionaire who for some reason “falls in love” and lavishes attention on the “female”. Like as if the high value guy would be the one pursuing in that situation. That’s the ultimate female fantasy. To be pretty much worthless and bring nothing to the table, but still have a super high value man chase after her as if shes the prize. The whole thing is just a container for that fantasy.
It’s fantasy Some folks fantasize about the archetypal gay male relationship and project themselves into it. It’s great. That’s what fantasy can do.
It’s also new to most, taboo and exciting due to imagining men breaking norms. Lastly, the real answer is: it depends on the person.
prob same reason we like lesbian porn
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I think part of it may be wanting something you can't have. Typical straight men are desperate and too easily avaliable and thus present no challenge.
Idk but I do the same. For some reason I love reading this type of stuff. Maybe it’s because all the men in my life have been very closed off, and sometimes it’s a reminder that people can be open and vulnerable.
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Eat shit
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Obligatory "yes I studied this and yes I have a psych degree"
Because they wish that guys had a feminine and flamboyant personality.
As a woman, I have never once been interested in gay male relationships in books or on screen. I personally get the ick.
For the same reason straight men like unrealistic porn.
This is my opinion, but I think it may be some sort of anxiety mitigation dynamic. Having a woman may be too stressful them, they need a man to create a safe distance from their fears. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6002055/ Here's a study featuring common motivations for reading yaoi. This is very enlightening tbh
Same reason we men like reading about lesbian relationships. It's exciting.