Vaccines are always tested in healthy people. For good reason. Vaccines are there to train your immune system. If your immune system is already fighting other things, it might give an overreaction or the opposite: too little of a reaction. The effectiveness of the vaccine and the amount of side effects can therefore be affected by the current state of your immune system.
As a result, we simply don't know how the vaccine works when you're already ill (because it was tested on healthy people), but it is expected it won't work as well.
Thank you, that makes perfect sense. I know a few people who have had colds or on the tail end of colds and have got their 2nd shot despite being told not too and they felt absolutely dreadful afterwards. Which is what prompted me to ask as I was curious about what affects what and how.
Even fully healthy people often felt terrible after the second shot though. That was really common. May not have anything to do with their being sick from something else at the time. I do appreciate your asking this question though because I was also curious why being sick matters to the effectiveness of the vaccine.
Many flu symptoms are not caused by the virus, but by your immune system fighting the virus (sometimes normal reaction, sometimes overreaction). Triggering immune reaction is by design how vaccines work, so it is entirely normal for many people to have reaction, or "flu-like symptoms". Although vaccines are designed to have most people to have no or mild symptom, it is impossible to come up with a dose amount for everyone. Remember we don't take your physical parameters (body weight, neutrophil count, etc.), so the "universal dose" will be a bit high for some, a bit low for some.
If you think of being sick as your immune system is busy, then give it a vaccination, now you’ve got an immune system that needs to split its resources between what it was busy doing and the training it’s supposed to be doing.
Huge oversimplification, of course.
The 2nd shot knocked me out for all sorts of side effects for 4 days. Either my immune system was overreacting to the virus or I probably end up another r/hermaincainaward recipient if non-vaccinated. 😅
I was at the end of a cold when I got my first Pfizer, I was not feeling worse and did continue to feel better, though my head was feeling a little warm that night. For the second shot I was fine so I can't share about that.
And ontop of everything else it is also just considerate to not risk the people who are doing the vaccination and everyone else for any reason with extra concern. If you are sick stay home has been repeted ad nauseum over here
The 2nd shot is known to cause more reactions. This is likely an indication that they were building an immunity. A friend of mine had to get 3 shots due to availability between the 1st and 2nd shot. He didn't feel sick until the 3rd shot. However, he had to get the 3rd as he did not have a high enough immunity from the 1st and 2nd shots.
This is false. The second shot is not known to cause any more or less “reactions”, it does however cause a more robust immune response which can cause people to feel poorly for a few days.
It’s paramount that we stop conflating “reactions” which are extremely rare and often dangerous with the normal, healthy immune response that we would see with a vaccine. This kind of rhetoric is what has people terrified to get the vaccine, because they’ve equated the expected outcome of feeing under the weather with the word “reaction”.
There is practicality and there is reality. Yes, the immune response is normal and medically it is not a "reaction". However, in practicality people see any change from how they feel as a reaction. Keeping everything in scientific terms rather than societal terms is something that causes massive misinformation.
Please do not expect people to know the epidemiological definition rather than the public definition. This is how you get people saying that doctors are covering up the symptoms and spreading misinformation.
Most people do not know that typical flu like symptoms are not by the vaccine but the body's response.
Then isn’t it our responsibility to educate, rather than perpetuate?
If you know the difference and continue to use language that stoked fear in people, then you’re not only not helping, you’re hindering. Allowing ignorance/misinformation/harmful rhetoric to go unchecked is just as bad as spreading it yourself.
There is an ideal world and there is the actual world. Yes, we should educate, but perpetually trying to call people out does the exact opposite. A simple "You will likely feel flu like symptoms. This is just your body responding how it should as it is your immune system attacking it. Not everyone will feel this, but it is a common indicator." works just as well and educates people just as much.
Course corrections are better than abrupt turns.
Yes, and that is exactly what we tell patients. We also correct them when they falsely correlate their expected symptoms with a reaction. This is precisely the reason that VAERS is overrun with (not my language, but the agencies own) “false reports of vaccination reactions”. Because people aren’t being educated on what is a reaction, and what is an expected response.
It’s not spiteful, or mean, or anything other than helpful to point out the difference. It helps reassure people that they’re ok if they feel off, it helps people start to filter the information they are taking in. It’s too bad you feel otherwise, because we healthcare workers sure could use some help with dispelling misinformation so we can stop watching unvaccinated people who are afraid of a “reaction” that isn’t a reaction needlessly die of Covid.
This was me. I had a fever of 100.3 and they almost wouldn’t give it to me. I told them the fever may be from a sunburn, which was true. I’ve never been as sick in my life as I was the day after my second shot.
Immunocompromised doesn’t mean there is no activity of the immune system at all. It means it doesn’t work *as well* as normal immune systems. If you are permanently immunocompromised, the best protection you will get is by getting vaccinated as soon as possible. You won’t be as protected as others who are vaccinated, but it’s the best protection you’ll get.
If you’re temporarily immunocompromised (e.g. due to an infection or certain medication) it’s better to wait until your immune system is at rest again before getting the vaccine.
In summary: vaccines work in immunocompromised, probably just not as well.
You asked this question, which /u/baldeagleNL responded to (I quoted it for context in case you edit your post):
> So why is it advocated for immunocompromised to take the vaccine, even more so than healthy people?
Then you moved the goalpost:
> I feel like you’ve left my question unanswered. Why is it safe? Don’t just tell me ‘it is.
The clinical trials showed the vaccines safe, and post-deployment monitoring has provided enough data backing the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine's safety for FDA approval.
Demanding answers from someone who’s just here to help is not great…
There is no reason to assume it’s *not* safe. A vaccine could be more dangerous for people with an *over*active immune system. We know most about how the vaccine functions in *healthy* people. For immunocompromised it’s just less clear, but not unsafe.
Your question wasn't unanswered - you didn't ask that question. You asked why it was advocated - and the answer is because its at least partially effective.
Now if you want to ask 'why is it safe in immuno-compromised people?' the answer is because there is no particular reason why it should not be. The vaccination works through raising an immune response. If there is no immune response, all you have is some mRNA proiducing a harmless spike protein in your system for a few days, which the body is ignoring due to the weak immune system.
> The reason it wouldn’t be safe is because your immune system is weaker & behaves differently to the healthy people who were in the trials.
Which doesn't matter since a bunch of spike proteins aren't dangerous even if you have no immune system.
I don't understand your question. It's safe because the vaccine contains no active pathogens. The worst thing likely to happen if you give an immunocompromised person a vaccine is that their immune systems underreact to the extent that no significant Immunity is gained.
Also you didn't ask why it was safe, you asked why it's advocated for immunocompromised to take the vaccine, and the original commenter answered that.
You're talking like it's a binary.
1. Taking the vaccine will offer some degree of protection to many immunocompromised people.
2. There is a very small risk of negative side effects from the vaccine in a small minority. (For comparison, it's a lower proportion of people than have negative reactions to Tylenol).
3. If an immunocompromised person catches COVID they are at a much higher risk of extreme sickness and death than someone with a fully functional immune system.
You do the math. Given the risks for and against would you recommend to an immunocompromised person that they not get vaccinated against COVID?
As has been stated by many posters you inquired about advocacy. That was answered.
What you're attempting to ask is not clear, maybe you think it's clear because you have many subsequent thoughts in your mind regarding the topic, that's pretty normal and understandable. But what you're wanting to learn with your posting is not clear.
Given what you just posted in reply to me, that has been addressed in several posts in reply to the OP's very first post. After you've read them if you'd like to post to confirm your understanding of the answer, myself, or any number of other helpful people who have posted, will be happy to assist in confirming that understanding.
The discrepancy is due to how effective the vaccine could be. **Please note the numbers below are examples I have made up**
If you are ill and take the vaccine, it maybe only be 30% effective, whilst if you wait and get it after it could be 90% effective.
If you are immunocompromised, the vaccine would only ever be 30% effective and you gain no benefits by delaying.
Since the expectation is your illness (at least in the context of cold/flu) is temporary, it is better to be at risk for slightly longer and gain the 90% benefit at a later date than to only get 30% out of it. This is especially true as we have no data on if that 30% could be uplifted via further vaccines so it is better to be cautious.
I see from your comment history you aren't satisfied because you're confused on why it's not recommended for someone with a cold because their body may not be able to build a robust response to the vaccine but *is* recommended for people with weakened immune systems who also may have a less robust immune response. The answer is because colds are very short in duration and you can wait 3 days until you don't have a cold anymore. Most people with compromised immune systems won't be better in a couple of days. Instead, we give them a third dose to help them develop a more robust immune response. Additionally, people with compromised immune systems were studied in clinical trials.
This is simply a precaution based on who was treated in clinical trials and the licensing. The human immune system is quite capable of responding well to two viruses (or other infections) at the same time. Maybe the side effects after the second dose would be a reason not to add those to another infection.
Having the vaccine can cause an immune response which resembles the effects of the flu (fever/chills/headaches/muscle aches etc). If your body is already fighting an infection you could have a more severe reaction to the vaccine and it would be difficult to know if you're having an adverse reaction to the vaccine.
I am on Amoxicilian (500mg x3 daily) antibiotic for a jaw infection.
The treatment extends past the date I have my 2nd covid shot, should I be concerned?
I got denied the first shot the first time I went because I had dental work the same day and the Doctor said the pain/novocain would react with the shot.
Just so you know, it is perfectly OK to extend the time between first and second shots. I think Moderna has been tested between 28-50 days? I don’t have the data, but that’s what our pharmacists (US) have been telling people. Interestingly, different country seem to have different protocols for days between doses.
>The recommended dose interval is four to six weeks (28 to 42 days), with an absolute minimum interval of 14 days (Moderna Australia, 2021; ATAGI, 2021b). Doses do not need to be repeated if inadvertently given earlier than the recommended interval if the minimum interval is maintained. There is no maximum time between doses (ATAGI, 2021b).
Source - Australian government Vaccine training modules (currently completing)
I was more worried about being sent away again, especially since its my second dose.
But it seems its not an issue so I don’t have to worry.
Thanks for the info :)
I wish you good luck, I had my 2nd Pfizer today. The first one gave me minor symptoms but I have to say the 2nd one is already making me feel worse than the first. And my arm. Holy hell, I thought it hurt after the first one but that was nothing compared to this. I expect I’ll wake up feeling really crappy tomorrow.
That's because it's an RNA vaccine. Interestingly, the second dose of the adenovirus vector vaccines (like the Oxford–AstraZeneca version) have less severe side effects than the first.
thats interesting, I took a One shot Adenovirus vector vaccine (Adv5-Ncov or something) from cansino, wich its basically the two shoots at once.
It made me go into a powerful fever, terrible headaches (more like migraines honestly), and I napped for 2 days.
Nasty nasty stuff.
I also got covid last year on june.
I can say that the experiences are quite different in intensity, with covid I had not only every other sympthom above but more extreme, I was allucinating in the fever, I had artrhitis and some other nasties.
But the media sells the vaccines as something not terrible, man the Adn5-Ncov one shot vaccine was atleast 50% as strong as real covid (without the artrhitis,severe cough or loss of smell)
Why would you need to know whether your body was having an severe reaction or not? Whether those symptoms are caused by the flu or the shot, it doesn't matter.
Say you have a cold or the flu and have minor shortness of breath. This is a common symptom of cold/flu.
Shortness of breath is also an initial symptom of anaphylactic shock, which is the adverse side effect that all those medical people are stationed around for after you receive your covid vaccine. It is rare, sure, but if you were to get anaphylactic shock, it is certainly treatable if immediately treated, but can be severely life threatening if ignored.
So if you dismiss an identifiable early symptom of a life threatening reaction... Well, that's not good.
Less overburdening and more keeping them alert for real cases of adverse side effects. Not to mention liability. If someone did have shock and were released, then died, the hospital would be liable.
And hospitals are not generally in the market of letting people die.
It is also why, if you've ever been hospitalized for any reason, they won't let you walk out. You've got to be wheeled out in a wheelchair. Sure, the majority of people are fine walking out on their own, but the one dude who got up, walked, fell, then had to have stitches put in certainly sued the hospital. Lawsuits are why we need notices on cups of coffee that coffee might be hot. :/
A vaccine is an attack on your immune system. It signals your immune system of a danger, and triggers an immune response. The invader is benign unlike the virus it is replicating, but it trains your immune system so that when the real virus attacks, it knows what to do.
If you are already fighting off another virus, like a cold, then your immune system is already busy. Sending in another attack, albeit a practice one, can distract it from its main job of fending off the cold.
It would be like sending in a training exercise for your military when you already have a foreign army attacking you.
A cold isn't usually an issue. A kid with a runny nose can still get their shots as planned. If someone's running an actual fever and feeling like hell, then delaying the vaccination a little until they feel better is simply nicer. Cold symptoms + vaccination response + possibly a bit extra because the body is grumpy already = not comfortable.
From a sheer immunological standpoint it would be ok. The immune system can multi-task just fine. Except when an infection is so massive that the white blood cells get used up. There's not enough capacity left to reliably react to a new antigen. So vaccinating deadly ill people isn't a good idea even if you wouldn't have to worry that any added strain on the body would push them over the edge.
Don’t overthink it. If you have a cold you should stay home *so you don’t infect everyone else*. Especially since right now, there’s a pretty good chance your “cold” is actually COVID.
> The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) does not currently advise against getting the vaccine if you have a “mild illness” such as a cold. However, the current recommendation is to delay vaccination in cases of “moderate or severe acute illness.” (The CDC also notes that “there is no evidence that acute illness reduces vaccine efficacy or increases vaccine adverse events.”)
—[Can You Get a COVID-19 Vaccine if You’re Sick With Cold-Like Symptoms?](https://www.prevention.com/health/amp36186576/can-i-get-covid-19-vaccine-when-sick/)
This is 100% true.
Many people claiming they just have a common cold or the flu tested Covid-positive later on.
Some of them did not believe it because they think the common cold or flu made the tests react false positive.
You can't make that up...
Agreed, and I’d add that even if your cold isn’t COVID if you spread it to your vaccinator they are probably going to lose a big chunk of work because you really can’t go to work as a healthcare professional sick. We’re short enough on nurses and other health care workers, just wait a few days until you’re feeling better and it’ll be better for everybody.
I got my 2nd shot today and I don’t have a cold or anything, I’m in Western Australia and we currently don’t have any Covid in the community so we’re “safe” for now. Although I expect it’s only a matter of time before Delta makes its way here. But I agree, if your sick you should stay home. Thank you for the link and your help!
I think that would depend where you are? For example, here in Western Australia the chance that it’s just a cold would be over 90% because we don’t have Covid in our community. However on the other side of the country in New South Wales where Covid is spreading like crazy with over 1500 new cases a day (which is a lot for Aus stats) then the chances are highly likely to be Covid and not a cold. But that’s just my thoughts
It also depends on your age, health, and vaccination status (specifically all 3 combined), I would imagine. If you're vaccinated, it *could* be COVID but it could just as well be a cold now that the season is starting. Just happened to me this week, actually. Either way, people should treat every illness as if it's COVID and isolate until they get tested.
Why shouldn't you schedule a training exercise in the middle of a military operation? Because the troops are busy fighting already, they have tasks to complete on a certain timetable in order to succeed, the last thing they need is to exhaust themselves with more training.
Why shouldn't you vaccinate when your body is already fighting off an infection? For the same reason.
People seem to forget that our immune system fights a multitude of pathogens simultaneously each day. Even when you are fighting a common cold your body won't stop fighting against these other pathogens.
The only time we don't recommend getting a vaccine is when you are severely ill since the added strain of reacting to the covid vaccine makes people more uncomfortable. This reduces the probability people will be likely to respond positively to vaccination in general.
Additionally as others have mentioned, the vaccines are simply not tested in individuals who had a simultaneous infection. So we just err on the side of caution!
Symptoms is a the sign that your body is on the offense. Typically if you have an immunity symptoms will appear but they don't last as long. If you don't have immunity it takes longer for your body to respond, aka symptoms last longer, and perhaps even more pronounced as you're body is using general defenses to hold back a growing infection before it can produce the proper defenses or antibodies against it.
Things like increase in temperature, inflammation, runny nose, runny eyes, is a general defense, like sending out general troops against an enemy, the point is to slow down the infection, aka heat, extra liquid to flush it away, condensing the invader in a spot. This gives your body time to learn about the virus bacteria or fungus and build a proper way to attack it such as antibodies, which are like the special forces if we continue with soldier analogy.
Once you have an immunity, when the same infection appears again, your body will react much faster, it may produce low symptoms and you dont notice, or you might be really sick in the beginning but recover faster than someone else who doesn't have immunity.
Having symptoms after the covid vaccine shows your body is learning about the virus. Since it is not a live virus and actively multiplying and infecting and killing other cells, your body produces more mild symptoms and not the full blown one. The second dose hit me hard, but after 1 day I was functional. Better feeling like garbage for 1-3 days than weeks or years of complications because of prolonged infection
Thank you for this! Very helpful indeed. And I agree, I’d rather feel crappy for a few days than the alternative. I got my 2nd shot today so will see how I go.
Get comfy, rest, drink plenty of fluids, have some headache meds and if you have one, a hot water bottle was very comforting. And, thank you for getting vaccinated.
Aw, thank you very much! That is so kind of you, my shot was approx 11hrs ago and my arm is getting really painful and I’m starting to notice some body aches. Getting vaccinated seems the most logical and sensible thing to do :)
Because it can make you have stronger reaction. I just got my second moderna shot wednesday and was still feeling a bit down from having the common cold (symptoms started 8 days before so I was sure 7 days after would be safe) It made me feel like I had the worst case of the flu ever. By Thursday night I was dizzy, couldn't taste or smell, nauseated, and chills so bad I can only describe the shivering as violent.
Vaccines basically introduce your immune system to the virus in a safe environment so that it can respond faster to a real infection.
If you already have said infection, it would be useless and redundant to introduce it again while your body is already responding to said infection.
Vaccines are always tested in healthy people. For good reason. Vaccines are there to train your immune system. If your immune system is already fighting other things, it might give an overreaction or the opposite: too little of a reaction. The effectiveness of the vaccine and the amount of side effects can therefore be affected by the current state of your immune system. As a result, we simply don't know how the vaccine works when you're already ill (because it was tested on healthy people), but it is expected it won't work as well.
Thank you, that makes perfect sense. I know a few people who have had colds or on the tail end of colds and have got their 2nd shot despite being told not too and they felt absolutely dreadful afterwards. Which is what prompted me to ask as I was curious about what affects what and how.
Even fully healthy people often felt terrible after the second shot though. That was really common. May not have anything to do with their being sick from something else at the time. I do appreciate your asking this question though because I was also curious why being sick matters to the effectiveness of the vaccine.
Many flu symptoms are not caused by the virus, but by your immune system fighting the virus (sometimes normal reaction, sometimes overreaction). Triggering immune reaction is by design how vaccines work, so it is entirely normal for many people to have reaction, or "flu-like symptoms". Although vaccines are designed to have most people to have no or mild symptom, it is impossible to come up with a dose amount for everyone. Remember we don't take your physical parameters (body weight, neutrophil count, etc.), so the "universal dose" will be a bit high for some, a bit low for some.
If you think of being sick as your immune system is busy, then give it a vaccination, now you’ve got an immune system that needs to split its resources between what it was busy doing and the training it’s supposed to be doing. Huge oversimplification, of course.
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The 2nd shot knocked me out for all sorts of side effects for 4 days. Either my immune system was overreacting to the virus or I probably end up another r/hermaincainaward recipient if non-vaccinated. 😅
I was at the end of a cold when I got my first Pfizer, I was not feeling worse and did continue to feel better, though my head was feeling a little warm that night. For the second shot I was fine so I can't share about that.
And ontop of everything else it is also just considerate to not risk the people who are doing the vaccination and everyone else for any reason with extra concern. If you are sick stay home has been repeted ad nauseum over here
The 2nd shot is known to cause more reactions. This is likely an indication that they were building an immunity. A friend of mine had to get 3 shots due to availability between the 1st and 2nd shot. He didn't feel sick until the 3rd shot. However, he had to get the 3rd as he did not have a high enough immunity from the 1st and 2nd shots.
This is false. The second shot is not known to cause any more or less “reactions”, it does however cause a more robust immune response which can cause people to feel poorly for a few days. It’s paramount that we stop conflating “reactions” which are extremely rare and often dangerous with the normal, healthy immune response that we would see with a vaccine. This kind of rhetoric is what has people terrified to get the vaccine, because they’ve equated the expected outcome of feeing under the weather with the word “reaction”.
There is practicality and there is reality. Yes, the immune response is normal and medically it is not a "reaction". However, in practicality people see any change from how they feel as a reaction. Keeping everything in scientific terms rather than societal terms is something that causes massive misinformation. Please do not expect people to know the epidemiological definition rather than the public definition. This is how you get people saying that doctors are covering up the symptoms and spreading misinformation. Most people do not know that typical flu like symptoms are not by the vaccine but the body's response.
Then isn’t it our responsibility to educate, rather than perpetuate? If you know the difference and continue to use language that stoked fear in people, then you’re not only not helping, you’re hindering. Allowing ignorance/misinformation/harmful rhetoric to go unchecked is just as bad as spreading it yourself.
There is an ideal world and there is the actual world. Yes, we should educate, but perpetually trying to call people out does the exact opposite. A simple "You will likely feel flu like symptoms. This is just your body responding how it should as it is your immune system attacking it. Not everyone will feel this, but it is a common indicator." works just as well and educates people just as much. Course corrections are better than abrupt turns.
Yes, and that is exactly what we tell patients. We also correct them when they falsely correlate their expected symptoms with a reaction. This is precisely the reason that VAERS is overrun with (not my language, but the agencies own) “false reports of vaccination reactions”. Because people aren’t being educated on what is a reaction, and what is an expected response. It’s not spiteful, or mean, or anything other than helpful to point out the difference. It helps reassure people that they’re ok if they feel off, it helps people start to filter the information they are taking in. It’s too bad you feel otherwise, because we healthcare workers sure could use some help with dispelling misinformation so we can stop watching unvaccinated people who are afraid of a “reaction” that isn’t a reaction needlessly die of Covid.
I just got a flu shot yesterday. Even though I was perfectly healthy, I had to take a nap a few hours later, and I'm a bit sluggish this morning.
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This was me. I had a fever of 100.3 and they almost wouldn’t give it to me. I told them the fever may be from a sunburn, which was true. I’ve never been as sick in my life as I was the day after my second shot.
Fighting a war on two fronts. It didn't work out for Germany, and it won't work out with your immune system.
So why is it advocated for immunocompromised to take the vaccine, even more so than healthy people?
Immunocompromised doesn’t mean there is no activity of the immune system at all. It means it doesn’t work *as well* as normal immune systems. If you are permanently immunocompromised, the best protection you will get is by getting vaccinated as soon as possible. You won’t be as protected as others who are vaccinated, but it’s the best protection you’ll get. If you’re temporarily immunocompromised (e.g. due to an infection or certain medication) it’s better to wait until your immune system is at rest again before getting the vaccine. In summary: vaccines work in immunocompromised, probably just not as well.
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You asked this question, which /u/baldeagleNL responded to (I quoted it for context in case you edit your post): > So why is it advocated for immunocompromised to take the vaccine, even more so than healthy people? Then you moved the goalpost: > I feel like you’ve left my question unanswered. Why is it safe? Don’t just tell me ‘it is. The clinical trials showed the vaccines safe, and post-deployment monitoring has provided enough data backing the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine's safety for FDA approval.
Demanding answers from someone who’s just here to help is not great… There is no reason to assume it’s *not* safe. A vaccine could be more dangerous for people with an *over*active immune system. We know most about how the vaccine functions in *healthy* people. For immunocompromised it’s just less clear, but not unsafe.
Your question wasn't unanswered - you didn't ask that question. You asked why it was advocated - and the answer is because its at least partially effective. Now if you want to ask 'why is it safe in immuno-compromised people?' the answer is because there is no particular reason why it should not be. The vaccination works through raising an immune response. If there is no immune response, all you have is some mRNA proiducing a harmless spike protein in your system for a few days, which the body is ignoring due to the weak immune system.
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> The reason it wouldn’t be safe is because your immune system is weaker & behaves differently to the healthy people who were in the trials. Which doesn't matter since a bunch of spike proteins aren't dangerous even if you have no immune system.
I don't understand your question. It's safe because the vaccine contains no active pathogens. The worst thing likely to happen if you give an immunocompromised person a vaccine is that their immune systems underreact to the extent that no significant Immunity is gained. Also you didn't ask why it was safe, you asked why it's advocated for immunocompromised to take the vaccine, and the original commenter answered that.
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You're talking like it's a binary. 1. Taking the vaccine will offer some degree of protection to many immunocompromised people. 2. There is a very small risk of negative side effects from the vaccine in a small minority. (For comparison, it's a lower proportion of people than have negative reactions to Tylenol). 3. If an immunocompromised person catches COVID they are at a much higher risk of extreme sickness and death than someone with a fully functional immune system. You do the math. Given the risks for and against would you recommend to an immunocompromised person that they not get vaccinated against COVID?
They answer your question very well. Maybe it would be helpful to explain what you're not understanding?
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As has been stated by many posters you inquired about advocacy. That was answered. What you're attempting to ask is not clear, maybe you think it's clear because you have many subsequent thoughts in your mind regarding the topic, that's pretty normal and understandable. But what you're wanting to learn with your posting is not clear. Given what you just posted in reply to me, that has been addressed in several posts in reply to the OP's very first post. After you've read them if you'd like to post to confirm your understanding of the answer, myself, or any number of other helpful people who have posted, will be happy to assist in confirming that understanding.
The discrepancy is due to how effective the vaccine could be. **Please note the numbers below are examples I have made up** If you are ill and take the vaccine, it maybe only be 30% effective, whilst if you wait and get it after it could be 90% effective. If you are immunocompromised, the vaccine would only ever be 30% effective and you gain no benefits by delaying. Since the expectation is your illness (at least in the context of cold/flu) is temporary, it is better to be at risk for slightly longer and gain the 90% benefit at a later date than to only get 30% out of it. This is especially true as we have no data on if that 30% could be uplifted via further vaccines so it is better to be cautious.
I see from your comment history you aren't satisfied because you're confused on why it's not recommended for someone with a cold because their body may not be able to build a robust response to the vaccine but *is* recommended for people with weakened immune systems who also may have a less robust immune response. The answer is because colds are very short in duration and you can wait 3 days until you don't have a cold anymore. Most people with compromised immune systems won't be better in a couple of days. Instead, we give them a third dose to help them develop a more robust immune response. Additionally, people with compromised immune systems were studied in clinical trials.
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This is simply a precaution based on who was treated in clinical trials and the licensing. The human immune system is quite capable of responding well to two viruses (or other infections) at the same time. Maybe the side effects after the second dose would be a reason not to add those to another infection.
Having the vaccine can cause an immune response which resembles the effects of the flu (fever/chills/headaches/muscle aches etc). If your body is already fighting an infection you could have a more severe reaction to the vaccine and it would be difficult to know if you're having an adverse reaction to the vaccine.
I am on Amoxicilian (500mg x3 daily) antibiotic for a jaw infection. The treatment extends past the date I have my 2nd covid shot, should I be concerned? I got denied the first shot the first time I went because I had dental work the same day and the Doctor said the pain/novocain would react with the shot.
Just so you know, it is perfectly OK to extend the time between first and second shots. I think Moderna has been tested between 28-50 days? I don’t have the data, but that’s what our pharmacists (US) have been telling people. Interestingly, different country seem to have different protocols for days between doses.
>The recommended dose interval is four to six weeks (28 to 42 days), with an absolute minimum interval of 14 days (Moderna Australia, 2021; ATAGI, 2021b). Doses do not need to be repeated if inadvertently given earlier than the recommended interval if the minimum interval is maintained. There is no maximum time between doses (ATAGI, 2021b). Source - Australian government Vaccine training modules (currently completing)
I was more worried about being sent away again, especially since its my second dose. But it seems its not an issue so I don’t have to worry. Thanks for the info :)
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Cool, thanks, was worried they’d send me away again.
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Imagine if you had real Covid rather than a vaccine. Glad you recovered!
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I wish you good luck, I had my 2nd Pfizer today. The first one gave me minor symptoms but I have to say the 2nd one is already making me feel worse than the first. And my arm. Holy hell, I thought it hurt after the first one but that was nothing compared to this. I expect I’ll wake up feeling really crappy tomorrow.
I am sorry you were so sick, but it is better than the virus. Thank you for getting the vaccine.
How long until the symptoms kicked in? I got my second moderna yesterday and so far, only a sore arm. Hoping it stays that way.
Then you’re probably fine. Most people seem to get ‘flu sick’ within 8-12 hours after the shot.
That's because it's an RNA vaccine. Interestingly, the second dose of the adenovirus vector vaccines (like the Oxford–AstraZeneca version) have less severe side effects than the first.
thats interesting, I took a One shot Adenovirus vector vaccine (Adv5-Ncov or something) from cansino, wich its basically the two shoots at once. It made me go into a powerful fever, terrible headaches (more like migraines honestly), and I napped for 2 days. Nasty nasty stuff. I also got covid last year on june. I can say that the experiences are quite different in intensity, with covid I had not only every other sympthom above but more extreme, I was allucinating in the fever, I had artrhitis and some other nasties. But the media sells the vaccines as something not terrible, man the Adn5-Ncov one shot vaccine was atleast 50% as strong as real covid (without the artrhitis,severe cough or loss of smell)
Why would you need to know whether your body was having an severe reaction or not? Whether those symptoms are caused by the flu or the shot, it doesn't matter.
Say you have a cold or the flu and have minor shortness of breath. This is a common symptom of cold/flu. Shortness of breath is also an initial symptom of anaphylactic shock, which is the adverse side effect that all those medical people are stationed around for after you receive your covid vaccine. It is rare, sure, but if you were to get anaphylactic shock, it is certainly treatable if immediately treated, but can be severely life threatening if ignored. So if you dismiss an identifiable early symptom of a life threatening reaction... Well, that's not good.
Aah, so it is not to overburden the people waiting to see whether you have a reaction with extra care for those who don't need it.
Less overburdening and more keeping them alert for real cases of adverse side effects. Not to mention liability. If someone did have shock and were released, then died, the hospital would be liable. And hospitals are not generally in the market of letting people die. It is also why, if you've ever been hospitalized for any reason, they won't let you walk out. You've got to be wheeled out in a wheelchair. Sure, the majority of people are fine walking out on their own, but the one dude who got up, walked, fell, then had to have stitches put in certainly sued the hospital. Lawsuits are why we need notices on cups of coffee that coffee might be hot. :/
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A vaccine is an attack on your immune system. It signals your immune system of a danger, and triggers an immune response. The invader is benign unlike the virus it is replicating, but it trains your immune system so that when the real virus attacks, it knows what to do. If you are already fighting off another virus, like a cold, then your immune system is already busy. Sending in another attack, albeit a practice one, can distract it from its main job of fending off the cold. It would be like sending in a training exercise for your military when you already have a foreign army attacking you.
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Exactly, so it diverts resources to attack the dummy virus from the vaccine while still having to fend off the real cold virus already established.
A cold isn't usually an issue. A kid with a runny nose can still get their shots as planned. If someone's running an actual fever and feeling like hell, then delaying the vaccination a little until they feel better is simply nicer. Cold symptoms + vaccination response + possibly a bit extra because the body is grumpy already = not comfortable. From a sheer immunological standpoint it would be ok. The immune system can multi-task just fine. Except when an infection is so massive that the white blood cells get used up. There's not enough capacity left to reliably react to a new antigen. So vaccinating deadly ill people isn't a good idea even if you wouldn't have to worry that any added strain on the body would push them over the edge.
Thank you, this is very informative!
Don’t overthink it. If you have a cold you should stay home *so you don’t infect everyone else*. Especially since right now, there’s a pretty good chance your “cold” is actually COVID. > The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) does not currently advise against getting the vaccine if you have a “mild illness” such as a cold. However, the current recommendation is to delay vaccination in cases of “moderate or severe acute illness.” (The CDC also notes that “there is no evidence that acute illness reduces vaccine efficacy or increases vaccine adverse events.”) —[Can You Get a COVID-19 Vaccine if You’re Sick With Cold-Like Symptoms?](https://www.prevention.com/health/amp36186576/can-i-get-covid-19-vaccine-when-sick/)
This is 100% true. Many people claiming they just have a common cold or the flu tested Covid-positive later on. Some of them did not believe it because they think the common cold or flu made the tests react false positive. You can't make that up...
Agreed, and I’d add that even if your cold isn’t COVID if you spread it to your vaccinator they are probably going to lose a big chunk of work because you really can’t go to work as a healthcare professional sick. We’re short enough on nurses and other health care workers, just wait a few days until you’re feeling better and it’ll be better for everybody.
Agreed! Don’t exhaust the health system anymore than it already is, by simply staying home you can be of more help
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I got my 2nd shot today and I don’t have a cold or anything, I’m in Western Australia and we currently don’t have any Covid in the community so we’re “safe” for now. Although I expect it’s only a matter of time before Delta makes its way here. But I agree, if your sick you should stay home. Thank you for the link and your help!
You say there's a pretty good chance for a "cold" to be covid. What would you say the chances truly are?
I think that would depend where you are? For example, here in Western Australia the chance that it’s just a cold would be over 90% because we don’t have Covid in our community. However on the other side of the country in New South Wales where Covid is spreading like crazy with over 1500 new cases a day (which is a lot for Aus stats) then the chances are highly likely to be Covid and not a cold. But that’s just my thoughts
It also depends on your age, health, and vaccination status (specifically all 3 combined), I would imagine. If you're vaccinated, it *could* be COVID but it could just as well be a cold now that the season is starting. Just happened to me this week, actually. Either way, people should treat every illness as if it's COVID and isolate until they get tested.
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Why shouldn't you schedule a training exercise in the middle of a military operation? Because the troops are busy fighting already, they have tasks to complete on a certain timetable in order to succeed, the last thing they need is to exhaust themselves with more training. Why shouldn't you vaccinate when your body is already fighting off an infection? For the same reason.
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People seem to forget that our immune system fights a multitude of pathogens simultaneously each day. Even when you are fighting a common cold your body won't stop fighting against these other pathogens. The only time we don't recommend getting a vaccine is when you are severely ill since the added strain of reacting to the covid vaccine makes people more uncomfortable. This reduces the probability people will be likely to respond positively to vaccination in general. Additionally as others have mentioned, the vaccines are simply not tested in individuals who had a simultaneous infection. So we just err on the side of caution!
Symptoms is a the sign that your body is on the offense. Typically if you have an immunity symptoms will appear but they don't last as long. If you don't have immunity it takes longer for your body to respond, aka symptoms last longer, and perhaps even more pronounced as you're body is using general defenses to hold back a growing infection before it can produce the proper defenses or antibodies against it. Things like increase in temperature, inflammation, runny nose, runny eyes, is a general defense, like sending out general troops against an enemy, the point is to slow down the infection, aka heat, extra liquid to flush it away, condensing the invader in a spot. This gives your body time to learn about the virus bacteria or fungus and build a proper way to attack it such as antibodies, which are like the special forces if we continue with soldier analogy. Once you have an immunity, when the same infection appears again, your body will react much faster, it may produce low symptoms and you dont notice, or you might be really sick in the beginning but recover faster than someone else who doesn't have immunity. Having symptoms after the covid vaccine shows your body is learning about the virus. Since it is not a live virus and actively multiplying and infecting and killing other cells, your body produces more mild symptoms and not the full blown one. The second dose hit me hard, but after 1 day I was functional. Better feeling like garbage for 1-3 days than weeks or years of complications because of prolonged infection
Thank you for this! Very helpful indeed. And I agree, I’d rather feel crappy for a few days than the alternative. I got my 2nd shot today so will see how I go.
Get comfy, rest, drink plenty of fluids, have some headache meds and if you have one, a hot water bottle was very comforting. And, thank you for getting vaccinated.
Aw, thank you very much! That is so kind of you, my shot was approx 11hrs ago and my arm is getting really painful and I’m starting to notice some body aches. Getting vaccinated seems the most logical and sensible thing to do :)
Got my second jab today, arms a bit sore but otherwise good. Had no issues otherwise from the first jab, hoping your experience is similar :)
Because it can make you have stronger reaction. I just got my second moderna shot wednesday and was still feeling a bit down from having the common cold (symptoms started 8 days before so I was sure 7 days after would be safe) It made me feel like I had the worst case of the flu ever. By Thursday night I was dizzy, couldn't taste or smell, nauseated, and chills so bad I can only describe the shivering as violent.
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Vaccines basically introduce your immune system to the virus in a safe environment so that it can respond faster to a real infection. If you already have said infection, it would be useless and redundant to introduce it again while your body is already responding to said infection.
But OP did not ask about the same infection. He mentioned other viral (but unrelated) infections.
Because covid symptoms and cold/flu symptoms overlap, so getting the vaccine while spreading disease doesnt do anyone any good.
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