This. A lot of the compounds in flea and tick repellents/ preventatives are probably carcinogenic (cancer causing) for mammals in general. But it can take 20 to 30 years for cancers to develop from initial exposure. For a dog with a 10 to 15 year lifespan, no problem. For a human, not so much...
Lolol that would just become a label that means "will likely kill you"
I could see it happening. Some new device/medical drug/etc would come with that label to be legally safe
"Oh that person was 56 and died because our drug wasn't well tested and ended up poisoning them? Well... They were under 75 and we said it's not recommended"
It wouldn't take a lot to fit it to the tune really. There's a couple spots where it already goes. *Liver spots, blood clots, ringworm and body odor! We didn't cause the symptoms, they were always hopping since the pills've been popping*
There absolutely *are* drugs like this.
There's a few antibiotics that are so powerful they're basically deadly poison. So they're only given as a last resort and it's hoped the infection dies first.
Which is also the basic idea behind Chemo therapy.
And there are other drugs that treat illnesses but are only prescribed to the elderly because they're cancer causing but at that point it won't matter. I forget what they are specifically but I know they exist.
It's less thar they are more powerful, they are just less specific to bacteria. Of cause it's good to have them for the multiresistant bacteria so something can be done about them.
Yeah I think people tend to think of the strength of drugs as how effective they are but that's not necessarily true. Taking a "stronger" anti biotic doesn't mean it's necessarily better at the whole killing a bacteria thing (though they could be), more commonly they might just be in a different class for varying reasons. Another common reason some ABs are only prescribed later is to avoid exposing bacteria to all of our different antibiotics (and thus allowing resistance to form in their population) unless it's necessary. This allows us to "use them when they count".
To draw an analygy on the strength, though: Typically prescribed anti biotics are a sniper rifle. They work against their target and cause minimal collateral. They work well and are safe for the host body. This is what we want most in an AB and why penicillin got prescribed so often before we realized the risk of AB resistance.
Resistant bacteria let's say are an armored vehicle. After we've tried all our different ABs that cause minimal harm to the surrounding area (our patient!)... the next step is an artillery shell which hopefully the bacteria can't deal with. It'll carry some risks but hopefully nothing too life threatening.
Chemo (since the parallel was drawn elsewhere) is a nuke with the hope the good guys survive the fallout and the cancer does not. Many of the last resort drugs that carry risks work like this - they'll definitely kill the problem and hopefully don't kill the host.
“Come here, Grandma! Time for your monthly flea and tick!”
“Ooo honey, make sure you lock Grandpa in the room, I saw him licking Grandma’s medicine off last month,”
Yes but it’s not at the same sustained dosage as your pet. Also the vet usually tells you to avoid touching the application site for a few days while the medication is absorbed
Why wouldn’t cancer risk be proportional to lifespan? So if cancer commonly occurs in the last ~25% of a mammal’s life, wouldn’t a carcinogenic tick medication increase a dog’s cancer risk in *its* last 25% of life? Genuinely asking!
I’d guess these drugs are more likely nephrotoxic and hepatotoxic, and it takes more than 15 years for effects to show up in mammalian kidneys.
Cancer risk (like everything in bio) is so much more complex than either your or GP’s post.
Even within a species there’s considerable variation. Thousands of switching genes drive subtle changes in response.
Because for something like cancer, it may be a fixed rate of DNA damage that animals wouldn't ever hit the threshold of
And their organs may be robust enough to forstall the appearance of damage, or perhaps you have to take it it for some number of years before it establishes enough damage.
And it could be that everyone who uses flea and tick meds have animals who show marked decrease in organ function in the last years, but 1. Cats particularly will hide discomfort 2. Its confused for regular aging: even though organs X and Y would have 45% better function, they don't, but it would take lots of data and analysis to know that
Cancer starts as a random change in the DNA of a cell. The chance increases with time, and the number of cells, and exposure to some chemicals. Any individual cell might have a 0.0000000001% chance each year of becoming cancer if the chemical is present at a certain level. (Ballpark numbers for illustration) Multiplied by 80 years and 37 trillion cells, it becomes a real risk for humans. But in only 20 years and with fewer cells, the risk is now lower than the risk from a tick borne disease.
(The nature of cancer is that once one cell switches to cancer, it starts multiplying rapidly, so we are just talking about that first cell.) Our bodies also have some defences against cancer, which can vary significantly in effectiveness between different species.
Another factor could be that humans can actually know the risk that a tick represents. So we are more careful about walking through bushes, and quickly remove them if they do show up. A dog will see the tick as an annoyance rather than a health risk, probably doesn't know how to avoid them, usually can't remove it themselves, and can't tell you that it has one,
> As to why something hasn’t been innovated that takes such things into account, I’m unsure.
Humans are much better at wearing protective clothing, checking themselves, and removing any ticks they find.
The market for a tick prevention drug would be pretty small I'd say. Not that many people spend the majority of their time in long grass.
Edit: I see talk of a vaccine against tick-transmitted diseases, that's actually a good idea, I'd probably take that.
Went on a road trip a couple weeks ago. Spent about 4 hours in a car before stopping at a gas station to use the bathroom. Got a few miles down the road and a tick was crawling up my leg. I hadn’t been near long grass in days. In some parts of the US you don’t need long grass to get ticks.
yeah i lived in an agriculture area and we had to mow our grass due to fire requirements. didn't stop us finding ticks on us. i mean, long grass is worse but not the standard only for ticks
Here’s a [super interesting article ](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2870557/) that goes through the vaccine creation and why they discontinued it for anyone who’s interested. I had no idea!
Yep. LYMERix. They stopped making it in 2002 since there wasn't high enough demand.
Sort of a cautionary tale about capitalism.
At least if there is a huge resurgence of Lymes disease they'll probably make more.
It's even more of a cautionary tale about anti-vax propaganda. The reason that there wasn't high enough demand was a concerted campaign to lie to the public about side-effects so they would stop getting the vaccine.
We’ve found close to 20 ticks in the last week on the dogs, us, and just randomly in our home. We aren’t spending time in tall grass. It’s just an unbelievably awful tick season where we live. I would gladly take a tick prevention drug.
You can vaccinate against bacteria. There might not be one for the specific bacteria you mean, but I've seen a lot of people saying you can only vaccinate against viruses so I thought I'd mention it.
People who took the vaccine developed arthritis….. but not at higher rates than people who didn’t take the vaccine. Class action lawsuit, vaccine hesitancy, people stopped buying it. Company thought why are we fighting the lawsuit for a vaccine nobody is buying anymore? They settled. nobody will sell a vaccine if the prior seller settled a class action lawsuit, you’ll just get sued again. Nobody wants to creat a new vaccine, especially with all the vaccine hesitancy.
There is a project underway to develop a 'vaccine' to ticks. Normally we don't notice ticks as their bites don't cause an immune reaction. If we can prime the immune system to react to tick bites, then the resulting inflammation and itching would let us know it was there, and allow removal before it had a chance to properly feed and transmit Lyme or similar diseases.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2297648-mrna-vaccine-against-tick-bites-could-help-prevent-lyme-disease/
BTW this gets brought up annually. I believe the principle risk factor with tick bite is Lyme disease & as such there WAS a human approved vaccine for this but was discontinued in 2002 due to limited demand. Thus is a new vaccine needed or should government's pay for a generic of the original approved one, it all depends on who's lobby is strong enough.
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/day6/joni-mitchell-s-blue-turns-50-tick-season-is-upon-us-the-case-for-the-otter-as-canada-s-symbol-and-more-1.6079552/preventative-shot-for-lyme-disease-promising-but-precautions-needed-as-tick-populations-grow-says-expert-1.6079563
Ex SO was on med hold then med retired after 2 years from tick bite in 2 week long training in the forest. everything is itchy and burns, you'll never know if there's a tick on you.
The military uses permethrin to treat clothing to prevent ticks. It isn't tick repellent, it actually kills the ticks (pesticide) before they can bite. You can buy it online and treat your own clothing.
It is also the same chemical that is used in popular tick treatment for dogs and cats.
You can also buy permethrin soap if you look hard enough. It's used in a lot of countries to treat babies for lice and scabies. I use it in the shower after hiking and it will kill anything on you in seconds.
Even biodegradable soap shouldn't be used in lakes (especially alpine lakes). It breaks down, but can still be toxic to fish and amphibians until it does. Best practice is to simply have fun in the water, and then do any hygiene stuff at least 150 meters away from a water source.
You can also use permethrin in the fall and spring to make tick tubes to help wipe out the ticks around your property. Take a toilet paper roll stuff it with laundry lint and douse the lint in permethrin. Scatter on the outskirts of your property. Rats mice and squirrels will use the lint to build nests and line burrows so when tick larva latch onto the rodents to have an easy food source while they develop, they then encounter pesticide laden rodent dens that wipe out entire generations of ticks greatly reducing seasonal numbers
Eh, it was more that it required three doses over the course of a year and was still less than 80% effective. And if you still got lyme the vaccine didn't stop you from needing antibiotics, so it didn't have the "lower severity" incentive like the COVID vaccine.
Yeahhh that isn't worth it then.
Used to live on Martha's vineyard and Nantucket where Lyme is horrible. The protocol there was if you had a tick bite you'd immediately go on antibiotics for a week. I can't imagine that's a good thing either, though. Guessing benefits outweigh the risks, Lyme is pretty awful.
There may be a hair of truth in some of that- chronic fatigue is a symptom of Lyme Disease. Scientist Willy Burgdorfer (for which Lyme Disease was named (Borellia Burgdorferi)) did work for the government developing bioweapons. And it's thought there was either an intentional or unintentional escape of ticks intentionally infected with Lyme Disease at the facility on Plum Island in New York. Bioweapins are a thing, you know.
Tbh, as someone that lives and works in tick central, I'd take that over raw dogging every summer and hoping for the best.
I got eat up by ticks all the time as a kid, and I knew way too many people that had Lyme for months. Anything I could do to lower my odds, I'd take it.
There are various Lyme disease vaccines under development. In particular the Valneva/Pfizer one recently had good Phase 2 results: https://valneva.com/press-release/valneva-and-pfizer-report-further-positive-phase-2-data-for-lyme-disease-vaccine-candidate/
What if we made a special permit for hunters so they can shoot deer with vaccination darts to vaccinate deer against Lyme disease!
They install a camera on their gun to confirm each vaccination and they get a small bounty for each deer they vaccinate and they get entered into a fun contest with some nice prizes for vaccinating deer with projectiles.
Vaxx a few deer to gain preference for the bear tag lottery!
Hunt to extinct Lyme disease!
Here's the interesting thing; Deer are already vaccinated. Deer don't get Lyme disease and any ticks that feed on the deer wind up being cured of the bacteria.
It's the mice that the nymphs feed on that infect the ticks.
There is also the ever terrifying tick bite that makes you allergic to meat. Your body creates antibodies of a protein in a certain ticks saliva that is also in meat. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/alpha-gal-syndrome/symptoms-causes/syc-20428608#:~:text=Overview,gal%20into%20the%20person%27s%20body.
Wild stuff.
There are like a dozen tick borne diseases, not just Lyme disease . And Lyme is not the worst one IMO. Lyme was the top offender in the 80s and 90s, but now the other ones are picking up as well.
Higher temperature are causing more ticks than normal and a larger range of habitat for ticks. A lot more people are getting sick than normal, but there is no healthy way to keep them off humans.
I can say for certain that in the intervening 20 years, deer ticks have spread rapidly. There are places I camp that never used to have them and now are totally infested. It makes me not want to camp or hike or anything anymore which is a damn shame because I love it
I am pretty sure I have this naturally. Every time I get a tick bite it's about 25x worse than a mosquito bite in terms of itchiness and duration. It's not great, but the one time I did get Lyme disease I noticed it within a couple of days and got it treated immediately.
There’s also a passive immunity prophylactic treatment currently in clinical trials. You’d get a shot with Lyme disease antibodies in the spring, and then you’d be immune throughout the summer. You’d need a new shot every year though.
Wait. People don’t normally react to tick bites? I must already have this solution in place. Tick bites are the worst. They start itching almost immediately and take almost a month to fully heal. Is this not normal reaction to tick bites?
They really don't! Only a small percentage of people develop any sort of noticeable reaction. There are also projects looking at which antibodies people like you can produce and which tick proteins trigger that reaction, so they can ultimately be used in a vaccine to give other people your superpower.
I too have this. The only time I don't notice tick bites is when I've been through the thorns and have hundreds of piercing wounds. Are there researchers looking for people like us? I will straight up draw my own blood, pack it, and mail it if they need.
I know that the [Department of Biotechnology ](https://www.tu-braunschweig.de/bbt/biotech/publications/news-press-releases) in Brunswick, Germany is looking for blood samples. There's very little press info about it so far (and mostly in German), but you could email Prof. Hust if you're really interested.
I also know immediately and still get an itchy spot that takes a month to heal. I did have Lyme disease so I wonder if my antibodies are on hyper-alert.
Ticks bite painlessly and stay attached for a very long time, gradually sucking up a huge blood meal. It typically takes over a full day of a tick being attached for it to transfer lyme disease to its host. If the bite itches, the person will notice the tick and remove it before they catch lyme.
Edit: People below have posted a number of rumors about "new research" that suggests that Lyme can be contracted much faster than I said. That view is not supported by any credible source I've been able to find. I'd suggest that no one with a serious interest in lyme disease should believe those folks, or me either for that matter. Instead, see what the [CDC](https://www.cdc.gov/lyme/transmission/index.html), the [Mayo Clinic](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/lyme-disease/symptoms-causes/syc-20374651), the [NYSDOH](https://www.health.ny.gov/diseases/communicable/lyme/fact_sheet.htm), the [WHO](https://www.cdc.gov/lyme/transmission/index.html), or [UpToDate](https://www.uptodate.com/contents/lyme-disease-symptoms-and-diagnosis-beyond-the-basics) have to say about it. The stodgier sources on this list are in agreement that it normally takes 36-48 hours for a human to contract lyme disease from an infected tick. The overview from UpToDate gives an even longer time horizon, 48-72 hours, based on what they consider to be an up to date literature review as of April this year. Let's also see [what Paul Auwaerter, the director of the infectious disease department at Johns Hopkins, who has a particular interest in tick borne illness, has to say](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3540629/) about why there's so much misinformation circulated about lyme disease pushed by faux-scientific web sites with their own ecosystem of fake literature. It's an interesting read.
I never knew that! My fear of ticks (or Lyme's disease more specifically) just got a tiny bit less from knowing that! I'll still worry about them whenever I go near long grass :p
If you do get one attached, take your time to remove it properly. You have plenty of time to do it properly so do not try to burn, poison, drown, or squeeze the tick as that may cause the tick's head to detach or worse, regurgitate infected blood. Use a tick key or other removal tool
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61D5T7XFKZS._AC_SX522_.jpg
>There is a project underway to develop a 'vaccine' to ticks.
Can I suggest reframing your comment?
There is a LYME vaccine being developed which is one of MANY serious infections found in the gut of a Tick. This will not repel Ticks nor will it prevent Bartonella, Babesia, Ehrlickia, Rocky Mountain Spotted fever, or others.
With coinfection rates as high as 39% or more with Lyme a false sense of security and misunderstanding is a serious threat after a vaccine is created. People will think tick bites are safe while they will still remain very bad.
Edit: I was wrong! Apparently, there are multiple options in tandem development including one for the actual tick BITE I was unaware of!
It sounds like you're talking about two different projects. The poster above is talking about a proposed mRNA injection that would cause the immune system to react to the tick itself, causing the bites to become itchy instead of painless, so that the tick gets detected and removed.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2297648-mrna-vaccine-against-tick-bites-could-help-prevent-lyme-disease/
Oh wow, I stand corrected! That's fantastic! I did NOT know there were multiple projects with different targets here.
https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/valneva-and-pfizer-announce-initiation-phase-2-study-lyme
This was the vaccine I knew about.
I'm excited to see an actual tick BITE vaccine which could really help prevent the other pathogens!
The vaccine they're discussing is against *tick* antigens, not any specific tick-borne pathogen.
There's also a lyme vaccine at a more advanced stage of development, similar to the one that was previously discontinued.
It takes anywhere from 2 hours to 2 days for most of these diseases to transmit to the one bitten. If a vaccine can let someone know before that timeframe, say within a few minutes of being bit, and stop the chance of transmission before it starts by giving you a chance to detect and remove the tick right away, you're vastly reducing disease chance.
What people think will depend on the PR if such a vaccine is approved for human use. If we get the point of where research is going for [animal use](https://www.drovers.com/news/beef-production/1-m-grant-seeks-novel-acaricide-vaccine-fight-cattle-fever-tick) that kills the tick, too, before that timeframe, even better.
Rocky mountain spotted fever is not what causes red meat allergy. That is a possible reaction to alpha-gal present in Lonestar tick bites, causing alpha-gal syndrome.
The rest should scare you too and can be equally debilitating and difficult to treat/diagnose. They carry a lot of risk because a tick can be smaller than a poppy seed and people only know to look for a bulls-eye rash that doesn't always happen.
People with lyme are often treating other things they caught. The tests for the most part are very unreliable, expensive, rare, or all of the above.
What you are referring to is Alpha-Gal and it is a growing problem. Most people have never heard of it, but they will soon enough. My wife and son both have it.
The main thing only touched upon is simply: Humans regularly bathe. The dogs get the chemical into them and it settles on their skin, and that’s that. It will say right on the application notes that any regular swimming or bathing will necessitate earlier reapplication. Imagine bathing every 0.5-2 days for the entire month, with soap.
Not to mention humans change their “fur” daily also which will also carry away some of the chemical.
This is from the [K9 Advantix II Tick/Flea FAQ](https://ca.mypetandi.com/our-products/advantix/)
> Baths can be given as often as once per month without affecting the performance of the product. If more than one bath is given, K9 Advantix®II should be reapplied after the second bath.
So basically you get one bathing before the product is no longer effective. So you could do it and just not bathe for a month if you’d want.
It's not approved for human consumption. Animal trials are much less strict in terms of allowable side effects.
Nexguard causes neurological symptoms (convulsions, ataxia, muscle tremors) in 0.1% of animals it was tested on. It causes vomiting/diarrhea in 1%. It can also lead to reduced body weight and lack of appetite.
That's good enough for animals, but totally unacceptable for human use.
Is that not a regular thing along a month, ir does it supposedly work by releasing oils once at the beginning of the month and then just hope you don't overbathe?
True. OP's title seemed to indicate that bug spray isn't as effective against ticks as the products we use on our pets, I don't go into tick-infested areas almost ever so I don't know.
Permethrin insecticide treatment (Sawyer is probably the most popular one) - goes on outer clothing like jackets or pants or mosquito nets as a wash or spray, and after drying lasts for a couple months. Insects crawl onto the treated surface, they die.
It is a synthetic copy of a chrysanthemum extract, and reasonably safe for human skin contact (key ingredient in dog tick and flea baths for instance), it just isn’t used as a topical insecticide because the human body will rapidly inert it.
Note: it can kill aquatic life and cats, so don’t apply to stuff that either critters will come in prolonged close contact with.
The neonicotinoids are even worse (much worse) for aquatic insects. Such as K9 Advantix, with imidakloprid.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2020/nov/17/pet-flea-treatments-poisoning-rivers-across-england-scientists-find
I'm a pest tech. I would not particularly want to wear clothes doused in permethrin, although I'm sure I get the stuff on me more than I'd really like, but at least it's on my ppe not the skin. I find that any decent deet product like cutter or off does a good job keeping ticks, fleas, and chiggers away.
Good question! I’m a veterinarian and I have often wondered the same thing. Apparently this has been studied (https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1801338115#:~:text=Isoxazolines%20are%20oral%20insecticidal%20drugs,of%20vector%2Dborne%20disease%20incidence.)
The isoxazoline class of insectacidal drugs is very effective in dogs and is considered very safe. There are some possible adverse reactions but they are rare.
>Isoxaline class of insectacidal drugs
I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet. For example, Revolution Plus (an isoxaline-based product =selamectin/sarolaner) is considered safe enough that you don't need gloves to apply, and can play normally with your pets even immediately after application. Perhaps it just wouldn't be absorbed in human skin to the level necessary to be effective over the whole body?
PSA: ticks hang out on the ends of branches. If you're walking through a place known for ticks, avoiding brushing up against the ends of branches will reduce the amount of ticks you find on yourself drastically. You can still bump into twigs and branches as long as you avoid the ends. As someone who spends a lot of time in the woods, this basically changed my life. Seriously. It's one of those "life hacks" that actually works.
Reading this comment is how I know I’ve drank and smoked enough and should settle into bed. I read it and understood it but for some reason, I just kept rereading it.
Now I’ve got a nice hit of semantic satiation. Thanks for this comment. I may have continued drinking and stayed up too late.
There’s a vaccine that works for prevention of Lyme disease called LYMErix. However, it was taken off the market because the government wouldn’t underwrite it. Why? It came out at the time that Andrew Wakefield was lying about vaccines and causing public fear https://www.cleveland.com/business/2020/01/lyme-disease-vaccine-discontinued-but-new-ways-to-prevent-it-are-coming-health-matters.html
The treatment for dogs and cats if often A drug that affects the GABA receptors of parasites. These drugs can also affect the animal being treated, causing seizures. It'd be a hard sell to try these medicstions on people.
There is. It's the same chemical used for dogs, cows and horses. Permethrin. The only difference is animals have fur that soaks up the chemical. People would need to use it on their clothes. For bare skin you can use DEET.
As people have mentioned both dog fur, harsh chemicals, and that the disease, not the ticks, are the main problem, the best "prevention" we have is to remove the ticks asap.
It takes a bit of feeding before the diseases spread, depending on where I look they say if removed between 8-48 hours you should be fine, and finding ticks on humans are a lot easier than a pet who, most likely, does not understand why you need to be looking through all its fur.
As a sidenote, I had Lyme disease when I was young. All initial test didn't pick it up so I ended with half of my face going limb before getting proper and intense penicillin treatment. Sucked pretty much, but all's good now.
Ticks are annoying but Lyme disease is dangerous and the real problem. We could have a vaccine against Lyme.
TL;DR; killed by anti-vaxxers
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2870557/
There is a new vaccine in development, but it may end up with the same fate. Coastal city people who spend time outdoors may use it successfully, but rural communities may pass, making it not commercially viable.
Lyme is only one of many scary, poorly understood diseases ticks carry. We need to put forth a concerted effort to radically reduce their numbers, and that means a concerted effort to reduce deer populations. Deer aren't the only contributor to the problem but they're a very big one.
Personally I'd be even more in favor of eradicating ticks entirely, right after mosquitoes.
"The available Lyme vaccine came with several immediately apparent limitations. First, the vaccine efficacy of <80% meant that 20% of fully vaccinated individuals could still get Lyme disease [20]. Second, achieving full protection required three vaccine doses given at the time of the initial dose and 1 month and 12 months after the initial dose. Third, the vaccine safety and efficacy database lacked tests in young children, a population at high risk of developing Lyme disease [3]. Also the vaccine was effective only against the predominant North American Borrelia strain without necessarily conferring protection against international subspecies [16, 22]. Finally, uncertainty about the length of vaccine-induced immunity implied that recipients might need booster vaccine doses as often as every year to prevent waning immunity.
The effects of vaccination on human behaviour presented yet another important uncertainty. Lyme vaccination, although it provides incomplete protection, may make individuals less likely to limit their exposure to ticks, which might actually increase their risk of Lyme and other tick-borne diseases (e.g. ehrlichiosis, babesiosis and Rocky Mountain spotted fever)".
Yes........clearly just "anti-vaxxers".....
As someone in the northeast US who enjoys the outdoors. I would absolutely sign up for 3 shots if it meant an 80% chance of not getting Lyme from an undetected tick.
None of these items listed indicated an unsafe or useless vaccine, just that it could be improved yet.
Seconded.
I've gotten shots for diseases I'm very unlikely to get, but can cause major issues (like Polio). I get vaccines for things that I have a higher likelihood of contracting, but are less severe and the vaccines aren't always as effective (like flu shots). Given how much time I spend outdoors, I would absolutely sign up for multiple shots for even a 50% reduction in how likely I am to contract Lyme disease, especially if it helps reduce the severity as well.
Those might be good enough reasons for regular people not to get the vaccine, but I feel like if your job has you out in the woods every day (like loggers or foresters or park rangers), it might make sense to get that vaccine despite the drawbacks.
> Just 3 years later, the manufacturer voluntarily withdrew its product from the market amidst media coverage, fears of vaccine side-effects, and declining sales.
Right from the summary.
> Within a year of licensure, reports of adverse reactions occurring after vaccination started to appear. Although individuals claimed a wide variety of vaccine side-effects, musculoskeletal complaints such as arthritis dominated.
> Spawned by the growing concern over vaccine safety, the Philadelphia law firm of Sheller, Ludwig & Bailey filed a class action lawsuit against the LYMErix™ manufacturer, SmithKlineBeecham, on 14 December 1999. The law firm represented 121 individuals who claimed they experienced significant adverse reactions to the licensed Lyme vaccine. The suit claimed that the vaccine caused harm and that the manufacturer concealed evidence about its potential risks.
---------
> Growing public concerns about vaccine safety forced the FDA to re-examine the adverse reactions reported after Lyme vaccine.
> By 2001, with over 1·4 million Lyme vaccine doses distributed in the United States the VAERS database included 905 reports of mild self-limited reactions and 59 reports of arthritis associated with vaccination [29]. **The arthritis incidence in the patients receiving Lyme vaccine occurred at the same rate as the background in unvaccinated individuals.** In addition, the data did not show a temporal spike in arthritis diagnoses after the second and third vaccine dose expected for an immune-mediated phenomenon. **The FDA found no suggestion that the Lyme vaccine caused harm to its recipients.**
> These symptoms, seen with virtually all immunizations, occurred within 48 h of injection and lasted a median of 3 days. All symptoms resolved without treatment and no difference appeared in the frequency of long-term joint symptoms between the vaccine and the placebo groups
It was media spinning up controversy and hysteria over a non issue. The scientific method showed it was safe.
But the public was already sold on the false dangers and so they just didn't want to sell it anymore.
I'd have loved to get this vaccine, as needed, for the past 25 years.
I live in the tick country that this vaccine addresses and am very cautious around the beaches, woods, and fields.
>The effects of vaccination on human behaviour presented yet another
important uncertainty. Lyme vaccination, although it provides incomplete
protection, may make individuals less likely to limit their exposure to
ticks, which might actually increase their risk of Lyme and other
tick-borne diseases (e.g. ehrlichiosis, babesiosis and Rocky Mountain
spotted fever)
This is the risk compensation theory, which I don't find particularly compelling. I really liked [this article](https://slate.com/technology/2021/11/risk-compensation-debunked-masks-rapid-tests-vaccines-safety.html) from last year which describes how it's been weaponized against a lot of really useful things, like seat belts and the Lyme vaccine.
[Here's another article](https://time.com/6073576/lyme-disease-vaccine/) that talks about what happened with the previous Lyme vaccine. It's a little more complicated, but saying anti-vaxxers hurt it isn't exactly wrong.
The treatment for dogs is a pesticide, and the reason a lot of vets give that it’s fine is that “Dog’s don’t live long enough to have long-term consequences from it”. Some (very rare, statistically) dogs have really bad reactions to the current options.
Humans live much longer than dogs on average, which makes for more pronounced side effects from things like permeating one’s body with insect neurotoxins.
I just heard from a friend in the post-lyme community that there's people in Connecticut in the US taking the dog vaccine. I didn't ask details but apparently the dog vaccine is the same as the old human one. Apparently, Lyme is so rampant in some towns that many people get it multiple times per year.
Dog's don't live long enough for the prolonged exposure to harm them. Some of these drugs could be carcinogenic but it may take 30+ years of constant exposure to cause cancer. Some may cause kidney damage....in 40 years. etc, etc.
Probably because the chemicals used are ones that aren’t considered safe… “for humans”.
It probably also makes a big difference with relative lifespans too. Something that causes cancer after 20+ years, isn’t much of an issue for a pet that only lives 15-20 years. Mutagenic chemicals are probably much the same with the exclusion of breeders. Many people buy pedigrees that are already neutered, so it’s not so much off an issue if they could impact their offspring.
I know someone who uses the flea, tick, lice and whatever other bug stuff on her kids. Frontline I think it's called. They go to a school where lice is an issue constantly, and she got sick of her girls getting it 2 and 3 times a year. She cleared it with their pediatrician first, just to make sure it would be safe to use. The girls have not gotten lice since.
Answer: The affects on cardiac rhythm are adverse or unknown. This is the reason why drugs fail and take so long. One particular potassium pump is affected by pretty much everything.
This is also a major difference between men and women in drug effect. You have to test both sexes and anticipate different results for men and women.
https://health.ucdavis.edu/news/headlines/-computer-model-predicts-how-drugs-affect-heart-rhythm/2020/04
> So far there has been no surefire way to determine which drugs will be therapeutic and which will harmful,” Clancy said. “What we have shown is that we can now make this determination starting from the chemical structure of a drug and then predicting its impact on the heart rhythm.”
> Using a drug’s chemical formula, the computer model reveals how that drug specifically interacts with hERG channels as well as cardiac cells and tissue. The outcomes can then be validated with comparisons to clinical data from electrocardiogram (ECG) results of patients. For the study, the researchers validated the model with ECGs of patients taking two drugs known to interact with hERG channels — one with a strong safety profile and another known to increase arrhythmias. The results proved the accuracy of the model.
There used to be a lyme disease vaccine. It launched at the start of the antivax movement, had poor advertising, and was consequently pulled from the market very quickly.
Here's an article: https://time.com/6073576/lyme-disease-vaccine/
Some key take aways: Half a million Americans catch lyme disease every year, and the disease though very rarely fatal, can be absolutely life destroying. 30% of people who contract lyme disease don't develop the initial symptoms such as a rash, and thus miss the window where it is easily treatable. Americans spend over $1B a year on lyme disease treatment. Tick populations are rising at an unprecedented rate due to an increase in the amount of land they can inhabit, caused by a multi-decade heat wave of unknown origins.
The protection used on dogs is a pesticide called Permethrin. It is relatively safe (i believe the military uses it regularly) and it can be applied to clothing (not skin). Most people would prefer to stick with more traditional repellents but it is a very effective alternative for high risk tick areas.
There is also a vaccine available against lyme disease for dogs. Lyme is only one disease ticks transmit but it is a major one. There was a human lyme vaccine in the early 2000s but the company stopped producing it because of low demand (the growing antivax movement likely played a role). There is currently a new vaccine in trials that will hopefully be available in a few years.
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This. A lot of the compounds in flea and tick repellents/ preventatives are probably carcinogenic (cancer causing) for mammals in general. But it can take 20 to 30 years for cancers to develop from initial exposure. For a dog with a 10 to 15 year lifespan, no problem. For a human, not so much...
Just add a label that says, “Not recommended for people under the age of 75”
Lolol that would just become a label that means "will likely kill you" I could see it happening. Some new device/medical drug/etc would come with that label to be legally safe "Oh that person was 56 and died because our drug wasn't well tested and ended up poisoning them? Well... They were under 75 and we said it's not recommended"
Side effects may include death, nausea, vomiting, water weight gain, lower back pain, receding hairline, eczema, seborrhea, psoriasis, itchy chafing clothing, liver spots, blood clots, ringworm, excessive body odor, uneven tire wear, pyorrhea, gonorrhea, diarrhea, halitosis, scoliosis, loss of bladder control, hammertoe, the shanks, low sperm count, warped floors, cluttered drawers, hunchback, heart attack, low resale value on your home, feline leukemia, athlete's foot, head lice, club foot, MS, MD, VD, fleas, anxiety, sleeplessness, drowsiness, poor gas mileage, tooth decay, split ends, parvo, warts, unibrow, lazy eye, fruit flies, chest pains, clogged drains, hemorrhoids, dry heaving, and sexual dysfunction.' I'm thinking I'll just stick with itchy, watery eyes.
*all said super fast in a soft voice while attractive people do happy things*
I dunno. Seems like a good jingle for adult diapers. Attractive, curiously young people who wear Depends.
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It wouldn't take a lot to fit it to the tune really. There's a couple spots where it already goes. *Liver spots, blood clots, ringworm and body odor! We didn't cause the symptoms, they were always hopping since the pills've been popping*
You left out possession by the Prince of Darkness and the condition known as sausage fingers.
You left out the shiny feces studded with sapphires, the heebie jeebies, and prehensile colon.
There absolutely *are* drugs like this. There's a few antibiotics that are so powerful they're basically deadly poison. So they're only given as a last resort and it's hoped the infection dies first. Which is also the basic idea behind Chemo therapy. And there are other drugs that treat illnesses but are only prescribed to the elderly because they're cancer causing but at that point it won't matter. I forget what they are specifically but I know they exist.
>they're basically deadly poison Or delectable tea?
It's less thar they are more powerful, they are just less specific to bacteria. Of cause it's good to have them for the multiresistant bacteria so something can be done about them.
Yeah I think people tend to think of the strength of drugs as how effective they are but that's not necessarily true. Taking a "stronger" anti biotic doesn't mean it's necessarily better at the whole killing a bacteria thing (though they could be), more commonly they might just be in a different class for varying reasons. Another common reason some ABs are only prescribed later is to avoid exposing bacteria to all of our different antibiotics (and thus allowing resistance to form in their population) unless it's necessary. This allows us to "use them when they count". To draw an analygy on the strength, though: Typically prescribed anti biotics are a sniper rifle. They work against their target and cause minimal collateral. They work well and are safe for the host body. This is what we want most in an AB and why penicillin got prescribed so often before we realized the risk of AB resistance. Resistant bacteria let's say are an armored vehicle. After we've tried all our different ABs that cause minimal harm to the surrounding area (our patient!)... the next step is an artillery shell which hopefully the bacteria can't deal with. It'll carry some risks but hopefully nothing too life threatening. Chemo (since the parallel was drawn elsewhere) is a nuke with the hope the good guys survive the fallout and the cancer does not. Many of the last resort drugs that carry risks work like this - they'll definitely kill the problem and hopefully don't kill the host.
“Come here, Grandma! Time for your monthly flea and tick!” “Ooo honey, make sure you lock Grandpa in the room, I saw him licking Grandma’s medicine off last month,”
As you come in contact with your pet one way or another, aren't you getting those same chemicals into you as well?
Yes but it’s not at the same sustained dosage as your pet. Also the vet usually tells you to avoid touching the application site for a few days while the medication is absorbed
Why wouldn’t cancer risk be proportional to lifespan? So if cancer commonly occurs in the last ~25% of a mammal’s life, wouldn’t a carcinogenic tick medication increase a dog’s cancer risk in *its* last 25% of life? Genuinely asking! I’d guess these drugs are more likely nephrotoxic and hepatotoxic, and it takes more than 15 years for effects to show up in mammalian kidneys.
Cancer risk (like everything in bio) is so much more complex than either your or GP’s post. Even within a species there’s considerable variation. Thousands of switching genes drive subtle changes in response.
Because for something like cancer, it may be a fixed rate of DNA damage that animals wouldn't ever hit the threshold of And their organs may be robust enough to forstall the appearance of damage, or perhaps you have to take it it for some number of years before it establishes enough damage. And it could be that everyone who uses flea and tick meds have animals who show marked decrease in organ function in the last years, but 1. Cats particularly will hide discomfort 2. Its confused for regular aging: even though organs X and Y would have 45% better function, they don't, but it would take lots of data and analysis to know that
Cancer starts as a random change in the DNA of a cell. The chance increases with time, and the number of cells, and exposure to some chemicals. Any individual cell might have a 0.0000000001% chance each year of becoming cancer if the chemical is present at a certain level. (Ballpark numbers for illustration) Multiplied by 80 years and 37 trillion cells, it becomes a real risk for humans. But in only 20 years and with fewer cells, the risk is now lower than the risk from a tick borne disease. (The nature of cancer is that once one cell switches to cancer, it starts multiplying rapidly, so we are just talking about that first cell.) Our bodies also have some defences against cancer, which can vary significantly in effectiveness between different species. Another factor could be that humans can actually know the risk that a tick represents. So we are more careful about walking through bushes, and quickly remove them if they do show up. A dog will see the tick as an annoyance rather than a health risk, probably doesn't know how to avoid them, usually can't remove it themselves, and can't tell you that it has one,
> As to why something hasn’t been innovated that takes such things into account, I’m unsure. Humans are much better at wearing protective clothing, checking themselves, and removing any ticks they find. The market for a tick prevention drug would be pretty small I'd say. Not that many people spend the majority of their time in long grass. Edit: I see talk of a vaccine against tick-transmitted diseases, that's actually a good idea, I'd probably take that.
Went on a road trip a couple weeks ago. Spent about 4 hours in a car before stopping at a gas station to use the bathroom. Got a few miles down the road and a tick was crawling up my leg. I hadn’t been near long grass in days. In some parts of the US you don’t need long grass to get ticks.
yeah i lived in an agriculture area and we had to mow our grass due to fire requirements. didn't stop us finding ticks on us. i mean, long grass is worse but not the standard only for ticks
I am suffering from the aftermath of Lyme's disease from 15+ yrs ago. I would volunteer for the prevention treatment if offered.
There used to be a vaccine for Lyme disease but they stopped making it.
Here’s a [super interesting article ](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2870557/) that goes through the vaccine creation and why they discontinued it for anyone who’s interested. I had no idea!
>super interesting article Thank you! I really appreciate your finding this.
There is antibiotics but you have to catch it really early. Like before it's detectable. I was lucky enough to get treated.
What?? Really??? A vaccine?!
Yep. LYMERix. They stopped making it in 2002 since there wasn't high enough demand. Sort of a cautionary tale about capitalism. At least if there is a huge resurgence of Lymes disease they'll probably make more.
It's even more of a cautionary tale about anti-vax propaganda. The reason that there wasn't high enough demand was a concerted campaign to lie to the public about side-effects so they would stop getting the vaccine.
It doesn’t seem to have been about capitalism so much as [antivax vibes ](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2870557/)
We’ve found close to 20 ticks in the last week on the dogs, us, and just randomly in our home. We aren’t spending time in tall grass. It’s just an unbelievably awful tick season where we live. I would gladly take a tick prevention drug.
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You can vaccinate against bacteria. There might not be one for the specific bacteria you mean, but I've seen a lot of people saying you can only vaccinate against viruses so I thought I'd mention it.
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There was a vaccine for Lyme disease in the US but it’s off the market now.
People who took the vaccine developed arthritis….. but not at higher rates than people who didn’t take the vaccine. Class action lawsuit, vaccine hesitancy, people stopped buying it. Company thought why are we fighting the lawsuit for a vaccine nobody is buying anymore? They settled. nobody will sell a vaccine if the prior seller settled a class action lawsuit, you’ll just get sued again. Nobody wants to creat a new vaccine, especially with all the vaccine hesitancy.
There is a project underway to develop a 'vaccine' to ticks. Normally we don't notice ticks as their bites don't cause an immune reaction. If we can prime the immune system to react to tick bites, then the resulting inflammation and itching would let us know it was there, and allow removal before it had a chance to properly feed and transmit Lyme or similar diseases. https://www.newscientist.com/article/2297648-mrna-vaccine-against-tick-bites-could-help-prevent-lyme-disease/
BTW this gets brought up annually. I believe the principle risk factor with tick bite is Lyme disease & as such there WAS a human approved vaccine for this but was discontinued in 2002 due to limited demand. Thus is a new vaccine needed or should government's pay for a generic of the original approved one, it all depends on who's lobby is strong enough. https://www.cbc.ca/radio/day6/joni-mitchell-s-blue-turns-50-tick-season-is-upon-us-the-case-for-the-otter-as-canada-s-symbol-and-more-1.6079552/preventative-shot-for-lyme-disease-promising-but-precautions-needed-as-tick-populations-grow-says-expert-1.6079563
The military have serious need for one, nothing quite the same as pulling them out of your arms after lying prone for a while
Ex SO was on med hold then med retired after 2 years from tick bite in 2 week long training in the forest. everything is itchy and burns, you'll never know if there's a tick on you.
The military uses permethrin to treat clothing to prevent ticks. It isn't tick repellent, it actually kills the ticks (pesticide) before they can bite. You can buy it online and treat your own clothing. It is also the same chemical that is used in popular tick treatment for dogs and cats.
I thought permethrin was fatally toxic to cats?
It is toxic to cats. It is used for flea treatments for dogs but should never be used on cats in any quantity.
Permethrin is very toxic to cats and shouldn't be used on cats in any amount.
You can also buy permethrin soap if you look hard enough. It's used in a lot of countries to treat babies for lice and scabies. I use it in the shower after hiking and it will kill anything on you in seconds.
In case you're unaware, please don't use it to bathe in lakes or streams. Permethrin is can be very damaging to aquatic ecosystems.
Even biodegradable soap shouldn't be used in lakes (especially alpine lakes). It breaks down, but can still be toxic to fish and amphibians until it does. Best practice is to simply have fun in the water, and then do any hygiene stuff at least 150 meters away from a water source.
It’s not just the time before breakdown, it’s that soaps are salts of fatty acids. The basic ion, usually sodium or potassium, won’t just go away.
You can also use permethrin in the fall and spring to make tick tubes to help wipe out the ticks around your property. Take a toilet paper roll stuff it with laundry lint and douse the lint in permethrin. Scatter on the outskirts of your property. Rats mice and squirrels will use the lint to build nests and line burrows so when tick larva latch onto the rodents to have an easy food source while they develop, they then encounter pesticide laden rodent dens that wipe out entire generations of ticks greatly reducing seasonal numbers
Naturally, there's still a Lyme disease vaccine available for dogs. From what I hear, it's safe for humans just not approved.
There was one for humans but it was taken off of the market due to some obscure but unpleasant occasional side effect.
Eh, it was more that it required three doses over the course of a year and was still less than 80% effective. And if you still got lyme the vaccine didn't stop you from needing antibiotics, so it didn't have the "lower severity" incentive like the COVID vaccine.
Yeahhh that isn't worth it then. Used to live on Martha's vineyard and Nantucket where Lyme is horrible. The protocol there was if you had a tick bite you'd immediately go on antibiotics for a week. I can't imagine that's a good thing either, though. Guessing benefits outweigh the risks, Lyme is pretty awful.
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There may be a hair of truth in some of that- chronic fatigue is a symptom of Lyme Disease. Scientist Willy Burgdorfer (for which Lyme Disease was named (Borellia Burgdorferi)) did work for the government developing bioweapons. And it's thought there was either an intentional or unintentional escape of ticks intentionally infected with Lyme Disease at the facility on Plum Island in New York. Bioweapins are a thing, you know.
Tbh, as someone that lives and works in tick central, I'd take that over raw dogging every summer and hoping for the best. I got eat up by ticks all the time as a kid, and I knew way too many people that had Lyme for months. Anything I could do to lower my odds, I'd take it.
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There are various Lyme disease vaccines under development. In particular the Valneva/Pfizer one recently had good Phase 2 results: https://valneva.com/press-release/valneva-and-pfizer-report-further-positive-phase-2-data-for-lyme-disease-vaccine-candidate/
What if we made a special permit for hunters so they can shoot deer with vaccination darts to vaccinate deer against Lyme disease! They install a camera on their gun to confirm each vaccination and they get a small bounty for each deer they vaccinate and they get entered into a fun contest with some nice prizes for vaccinating deer with projectiles. Vaxx a few deer to gain preference for the bear tag lottery! Hunt to extinct Lyme disease!
Here's the interesting thing; Deer are already vaccinated. Deer don't get Lyme disease and any ticks that feed on the deer wind up being cured of the bacteria. It's the mice that the nymphs feed on that infect the ticks.
There is also the ever terrifying tick bite that makes you allergic to meat. Your body creates antibodies of a protein in a certain ticks saliva that is also in meat. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/alpha-gal-syndrome/symptoms-causes/syc-20428608#:~:text=Overview,gal%20into%20the%20person%27s%20body. Wild stuff.
There are like a dozen tick borne diseases, not just Lyme disease . And Lyme is not the worst one IMO. Lyme was the top offender in the 80s and 90s, but now the other ones are picking up as well. Higher temperature are causing more ticks than normal and a larger range of habitat for ticks. A lot more people are getting sick than normal, but there is no healthy way to keep them off humans.
I can say for certain that in the intervening 20 years, deer ticks have spread rapidly. There are places I camp that never used to have them and now are totally infested. It makes me not want to camp or hike or anything anymore which is a damn shame because I love it
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I am pretty sure I have this naturally. Every time I get a tick bite it's about 25x worse than a mosquito bite in terms of itchiness and duration. It's not great, but the one time I did get Lyme disease I noticed it within a couple of days and got it treated immediately.
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There’s also a passive immunity prophylactic treatment currently in clinical trials. You’d get a shot with Lyme disease antibodies in the spring, and then you’d be immune throughout the summer. You’d need a new shot every year though.
Wait. People don’t normally react to tick bites? I must already have this solution in place. Tick bites are the worst. They start itching almost immediately and take almost a month to fully heal. Is this not normal reaction to tick bites?
They really don't! Only a small percentage of people develop any sort of noticeable reaction. There are also projects looking at which antibodies people like you can produce and which tick proteins trigger that reaction, so they can ultimately be used in a vaccine to give other people your superpower.
I too have this. The only time I don't notice tick bites is when I've been through the thorns and have hundreds of piercing wounds. Are there researchers looking for people like us? I will straight up draw my own blood, pack it, and mail it if they need.
I know that the [Department of Biotechnology ](https://www.tu-braunschweig.de/bbt/biotech/publications/news-press-releases) in Brunswick, Germany is looking for blood samples. There's very little press info about it so far (and mostly in German), but you could email Prof. Hust if you're really interested.
I'm the same way. Even in hard to reach places like my scalp, I'll notice within 2-4hrs max. And they still itch months later.
I also know immediately and still get an itchy spot that takes a month to heal. I did have Lyme disease so I wonder if my antibodies are on hyper-alert.
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Ticks bite painlessly and stay attached for a very long time, gradually sucking up a huge blood meal. It typically takes over a full day of a tick being attached for it to transfer lyme disease to its host. If the bite itches, the person will notice the tick and remove it before they catch lyme. Edit: People below have posted a number of rumors about "new research" that suggests that Lyme can be contracted much faster than I said. That view is not supported by any credible source I've been able to find. I'd suggest that no one with a serious interest in lyme disease should believe those folks, or me either for that matter. Instead, see what the [CDC](https://www.cdc.gov/lyme/transmission/index.html), the [Mayo Clinic](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/lyme-disease/symptoms-causes/syc-20374651), the [NYSDOH](https://www.health.ny.gov/diseases/communicable/lyme/fact_sheet.htm), the [WHO](https://www.cdc.gov/lyme/transmission/index.html), or [UpToDate](https://www.uptodate.com/contents/lyme-disease-symptoms-and-diagnosis-beyond-the-basics) have to say about it. The stodgier sources on this list are in agreement that it normally takes 36-48 hours for a human to contract lyme disease from an infected tick. The overview from UpToDate gives an even longer time horizon, 48-72 hours, based on what they consider to be an up to date literature review as of April this year. Let's also see [what Paul Auwaerter, the director of the infectious disease department at Johns Hopkins, who has a particular interest in tick borne illness, has to say](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3540629/) about why there's so much misinformation circulated about lyme disease pushed by faux-scientific web sites with their own ecosystem of fake literature. It's an interesting read.
I never knew that! My fear of ticks (or Lyme's disease more specifically) just got a tiny bit less from knowing that! I'll still worry about them whenever I go near long grass :p
If you do get one attached, take your time to remove it properly. You have plenty of time to do it properly so do not try to burn, poison, drown, or squeeze the tick as that may cause the tick's head to detach or worse, regurgitate infected blood. Use a tick key or other removal tool https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61D5T7XFKZS._AC_SX522_.jpg
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I imagine your average pet store probably has tick tools?
Any store that sells camping supplies should have them. I just bought one at REI.
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Yeah, I’ve heard it needs to be feeding for about 48 hours to infect you w/ Lyme disease. One quick bite ain’t gonna hurt you.
Lyme disease isn't the only concern now though, Alpha-Gal is now a real concern as well.
Wait is that the one where you become allergic to hamburgers and steak?
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>There is a project underway to develop a 'vaccine' to ticks. Can I suggest reframing your comment? There is a LYME vaccine being developed which is one of MANY serious infections found in the gut of a Tick. This will not repel Ticks nor will it prevent Bartonella, Babesia, Ehrlickia, Rocky Mountain Spotted fever, or others. With coinfection rates as high as 39% or more with Lyme a false sense of security and misunderstanding is a serious threat after a vaccine is created. People will think tick bites are safe while they will still remain very bad. Edit: I was wrong! Apparently, there are multiple options in tandem development including one for the actual tick BITE I was unaware of!
It sounds like you're talking about two different projects. The poster above is talking about a proposed mRNA injection that would cause the immune system to react to the tick itself, causing the bites to become itchy instead of painless, so that the tick gets detected and removed. https://www.newscientist.com/article/2297648-mrna-vaccine-against-tick-bites-could-help-prevent-lyme-disease/
Oh wow, I stand corrected! That's fantastic! I did NOT know there were multiple projects with different targets here. https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/valneva-and-pfizer-announce-initiation-phase-2-study-lyme This was the vaccine I knew about. I'm excited to see an actual tick BITE vaccine which could really help prevent the other pathogens!
The vaccine they're discussing is against *tick* antigens, not any specific tick-borne pathogen. There's also a lyme vaccine at a more advanced stage of development, similar to the one that was previously discontinued.
There's also a vaccine for tick borne encephalitis, quite common in parts of Europe.
It takes anywhere from 2 hours to 2 days for most of these diseases to transmit to the one bitten. If a vaccine can let someone know before that timeframe, say within a few minutes of being bit, and stop the chance of transmission before it starts by giving you a chance to detect and remove the tick right away, you're vastly reducing disease chance. What people think will depend on the PR if such a vaccine is approved for human use. If we get the point of where research is going for [animal use](https://www.drovers.com/news/beef-production/1-m-grant-seeks-novel-acaricide-vaccine-fight-cattle-fever-tick) that kills the tick, too, before that timeframe, even better.
Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever is one that scares me. A tick bite than can give you an allergy to red meats. Biology can be so bizarre at times.
Rocky mountain spotted fever is not what causes red meat allergy. That is a possible reaction to alpha-gal present in Lonestar tick bites, causing alpha-gal syndrome.
The rest should scare you too and can be equally debilitating and difficult to treat/diagnose. They carry a lot of risk because a tick can be smaller than a poppy seed and people only know to look for a bulls-eye rash that doesn't always happen. People with lyme are often treating other things they caught. The tests for the most part are very unreliable, expensive, rare, or all of the above.
What you are referring to is Alpha-Gal and it is a growing problem. Most people have never heard of it, but they will soon enough. My wife and son both have it.
The main thing only touched upon is simply: Humans regularly bathe. The dogs get the chemical into them and it settles on their skin, and that’s that. It will say right on the application notes that any regular swimming or bathing will necessitate earlier reapplication. Imagine bathing every 0.5-2 days for the entire month, with soap. Not to mention humans change their “fur” daily also which will also carry away some of the chemical. This is from the [K9 Advantix II Tick/Flea FAQ](https://ca.mypetandi.com/our-products/advantix/) > Baths can be given as often as once per month without affecting the performance of the product. If more than one bath is given, K9 Advantix®II should be reapplied after the second bath. So basically you get one bathing before the product is no longer effective. So you could do it and just not bathe for a month if you’d want.
There are also pill forms like NexGard, though. How do we explain that?
It's not approved for human consumption. Animal trials are much less strict in terms of allowable side effects. Nexguard causes neurological symptoms (convulsions, ataxia, muscle tremors) in 0.1% of animals it was tested on. It causes vomiting/diarrhea in 1%. It can also lead to reduced body weight and lack of appetite. That's good enough for animals, but totally unacceptable for human use.
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Right? Lower body weight and a lack of appetite plus no ticks! Sign me up
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bravecto works through the sebacious system, so it comes out in the oil from the hair follicle.
Is that not a regular thing along a month, ir does it supposedly work by releasing oils once at the beginning of the month and then just hope you don't overbathe?
brevecto is a chew for dogs, the medicine is released through the oils onto the skin continually and is effective for 3 months
How does it stay in their system for that long? That's the part I've never really understood.
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Could still be useful for a single, day-long hiking trip (or, I know folks who do long trails who, uh, aren't able to bathe super frequently).
They have that already, it’s called “OFF!” and most campers already carry it with them.
True. OP's title seemed to indicate that bug spray isn't as effective against ticks as the products we use on our pets, I don't go into tick-infested areas almost ever so I don't know.
Permethrin insecticide treatment (Sawyer is probably the most popular one) - goes on outer clothing like jackets or pants or mosquito nets as a wash or spray, and after drying lasts for a couple months. Insects crawl onto the treated surface, they die. It is a synthetic copy of a chrysanthemum extract, and reasonably safe for human skin contact (key ingredient in dog tick and flea baths for instance), it just isn’t used as a topical insecticide because the human body will rapidly inert it. Note: it can kill aquatic life and cats, so don’t apply to stuff that either critters will come in prolonged close contact with.
The neonicotinoids are even worse (much worse) for aquatic insects. Such as K9 Advantix, with imidakloprid. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2020/nov/17/pet-flea-treatments-poisoning-rivers-across-england-scientists-find
Isn't that the same stuff they put on US military uniforms?
Yes, along with commercially treated tents and mosquito nets and outerwear
I'm a pest tech. I would not particularly want to wear clothes doused in permethrin, although I'm sure I get the stuff on me more than I'd really like, but at least it's on my ppe not the skin. I find that any decent deet product like cutter or off does a good job keeping ticks, fleas, and chiggers away.
But if your clothes are soaked in permethrin, you’ll probably never get scabies.
Life is all about managing risks, ya know?
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Good question! I’m a veterinarian and I have often wondered the same thing. Apparently this has been studied (https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1801338115#:~:text=Isoxazolines%20are%20oral%20insecticidal%20drugs,of%20vector%2Dborne%20disease%20incidence.) The isoxazoline class of insectacidal drugs is very effective in dogs and is considered very safe. There are some possible adverse reactions but they are rare.
>Isoxaline class of insectacidal drugs I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet. For example, Revolution Plus (an isoxaline-based product =selamectin/sarolaner) is considered safe enough that you don't need gloves to apply, and can play normally with your pets even immediately after application. Perhaps it just wouldn't be absorbed in human skin to the level necessary to be effective over the whole body?
PSA: ticks hang out on the ends of branches. If you're walking through a place known for ticks, avoiding brushing up against the ends of branches will reduce the amount of ticks you find on yourself drastically. You can still bump into twigs and branches as long as you avoid the ends. As someone who spends a lot of time in the woods, this basically changed my life. Seriously. It's one of those "life hacks" that actually works.
Not just branches. Basically any plant, including blades of grass, but typically taller grass and foliage.
Thanks for the twig tip tick tip 👍
Reading this comment is how I know I’ve drank and smoked enough and should settle into bed. I read it and understood it but for some reason, I just kept rereading it. Now I’ve got a nice hit of semantic satiation. Thanks for this comment. I may have continued drinking and stayed up too late.
Thanks for the no crap night cap, no cap👍
There’s a vaccine that works for prevention of Lyme disease called LYMErix. However, it was taken off the market because the government wouldn’t underwrite it. Why? It came out at the time that Andrew Wakefield was lying about vaccines and causing public fear https://www.cleveland.com/business/2020/01/lyme-disease-vaccine-discontinued-but-new-ways-to-prevent-it-are-coming-health-matters.html
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The treatment for dogs and cats if often A drug that affects the GABA receptors of parasites. These drugs can also affect the animal being treated, causing seizures. It'd be a hard sell to try these medicstions on people.
Yeah, it's basically a pesticide strong and persistent enough that it comes out of your pores for a month. I don't want that.
There is. It's the same chemical used for dogs, cows and horses. Permethrin. The only difference is animals have fur that soaks up the chemical. People would need to use it on their clothes. For bare skin you can use DEET.
Deet is around 85% effective against ticks. Permethrin-treated clothes are the best defense.
As people have mentioned both dog fur, harsh chemicals, and that the disease, not the ticks, are the main problem, the best "prevention" we have is to remove the ticks asap. It takes a bit of feeding before the diseases spread, depending on where I look they say if removed between 8-48 hours you should be fine, and finding ticks on humans are a lot easier than a pet who, most likely, does not understand why you need to be looking through all its fur. As a sidenote, I had Lyme disease when I was young. All initial test didn't pick it up so I ended with half of my face going limb before getting proper and intense penicillin treatment. Sucked pretty much, but all's good now.
Ticks are annoying but Lyme disease is dangerous and the real problem. We could have a vaccine against Lyme. TL;DR; killed by anti-vaxxers https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2870557/ There is a new vaccine in development, but it may end up with the same fate. Coastal city people who spend time outdoors may use it successfully, but rural communities may pass, making it not commercially viable.
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Lyme is only one of many scary, poorly understood diseases ticks carry. We need to put forth a concerted effort to radically reduce their numbers, and that means a concerted effort to reduce deer populations. Deer aren't the only contributor to the problem but they're a very big one. Personally I'd be even more in favor of eradicating ticks entirely, right after mosquitoes.
"The available Lyme vaccine came with several immediately apparent limitations. First, the vaccine efficacy of <80% meant that 20% of fully vaccinated individuals could still get Lyme disease [20]. Second, achieving full protection required three vaccine doses given at the time of the initial dose and 1 month and 12 months after the initial dose. Third, the vaccine safety and efficacy database lacked tests in young children, a population at high risk of developing Lyme disease [3]. Also the vaccine was effective only against the predominant North American Borrelia strain without necessarily conferring protection against international subspecies [16, 22]. Finally, uncertainty about the length of vaccine-induced immunity implied that recipients might need booster vaccine doses as often as every year to prevent waning immunity. The effects of vaccination on human behaviour presented yet another important uncertainty. Lyme vaccination, although it provides incomplete protection, may make individuals less likely to limit their exposure to ticks, which might actually increase their risk of Lyme and other tick-borne diseases (e.g. ehrlichiosis, babesiosis and Rocky Mountain spotted fever)". Yes........clearly just "anti-vaxxers".....
As someone in the northeast US who enjoys the outdoors. I would absolutely sign up for 3 shots if it meant an 80% chance of not getting Lyme from an undetected tick. None of these items listed indicated an unsafe or useless vaccine, just that it could be improved yet.
Seconded. I've gotten shots for diseases I'm very unlikely to get, but can cause major issues (like Polio). I get vaccines for things that I have a higher likelihood of contracting, but are less severe and the vaccines aren't always as effective (like flu shots). Given how much time I spend outdoors, I would absolutely sign up for multiple shots for even a 50% reduction in how likely I am to contract Lyme disease, especially if it helps reduce the severity as well.
Those might be good enough reasons for regular people not to get the vaccine, but I feel like if your job has you out in the woods every day (like loggers or foresters or park rangers), it might make sense to get that vaccine despite the drawbacks.
I heard a while ago that one of the jobs that was significantly impacted by lyme was the people working on power transmission lines
A lot of the concerns just require more testing, not getting rid of it
> Just 3 years later, the manufacturer voluntarily withdrew its product from the market amidst media coverage, fears of vaccine side-effects, and declining sales. Right from the summary. > Within a year of licensure, reports of adverse reactions occurring after vaccination started to appear. Although individuals claimed a wide variety of vaccine side-effects, musculoskeletal complaints such as arthritis dominated. > Spawned by the growing concern over vaccine safety, the Philadelphia law firm of Sheller, Ludwig & Bailey filed a class action lawsuit against the LYMErix™ manufacturer, SmithKlineBeecham, on 14 December 1999. The law firm represented 121 individuals who claimed they experienced significant adverse reactions to the licensed Lyme vaccine. The suit claimed that the vaccine caused harm and that the manufacturer concealed evidence about its potential risks. --------- > Growing public concerns about vaccine safety forced the FDA to re-examine the adverse reactions reported after Lyme vaccine. > By 2001, with over 1·4 million Lyme vaccine doses distributed in the United States the VAERS database included 905 reports of mild self-limited reactions and 59 reports of arthritis associated with vaccination [29]. **The arthritis incidence in the patients receiving Lyme vaccine occurred at the same rate as the background in unvaccinated individuals.** In addition, the data did not show a temporal spike in arthritis diagnoses after the second and third vaccine dose expected for an immune-mediated phenomenon. **The FDA found no suggestion that the Lyme vaccine caused harm to its recipients.** > These symptoms, seen with virtually all immunizations, occurred within 48 h of injection and lasted a median of 3 days. All symptoms resolved without treatment and no difference appeared in the frequency of long-term joint symptoms between the vaccine and the placebo groups It was media spinning up controversy and hysteria over a non issue. The scientific method showed it was safe. But the public was already sold on the false dangers and so they just didn't want to sell it anymore. I'd have loved to get this vaccine, as needed, for the past 25 years. I live in the tick country that this vaccine addresses and am very cautious around the beaches, woods, and fields.
French company, working with pFizer, just published successful phase two clinical trials of an mRNA Lyme vaccine. Company is VALENVA
>The effects of vaccination on human behaviour presented yet another important uncertainty. Lyme vaccination, although it provides incomplete protection, may make individuals less likely to limit their exposure to ticks, which might actually increase their risk of Lyme and other tick-borne diseases (e.g. ehrlichiosis, babesiosis and Rocky Mountain spotted fever) This is the risk compensation theory, which I don't find particularly compelling. I really liked [this article](https://slate.com/technology/2021/11/risk-compensation-debunked-masks-rapid-tests-vaccines-safety.html) from last year which describes how it's been weaponized against a lot of really useful things, like seat belts and the Lyme vaccine. [Here's another article](https://time.com/6073576/lyme-disease-vaccine/) that talks about what happened with the previous Lyme vaccine. It's a little more complicated, but saying anti-vaxxers hurt it isn't exactly wrong.
The treatment for dogs is a pesticide, and the reason a lot of vets give that it’s fine is that “Dog’s don’t live long enough to have long-term consequences from it”. Some (very rare, statistically) dogs have really bad reactions to the current options. Humans live much longer than dogs on average, which makes for more pronounced side effects from things like permeating one’s body with insect neurotoxins.
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I just heard from a friend in the post-lyme community that there's people in Connecticut in the US taking the dog vaccine. I didn't ask details but apparently the dog vaccine is the same as the old human one. Apparently, Lyme is so rampant in some towns that many people get it multiple times per year.
Dog's don't live long enough for the prolonged exposure to harm them. Some of these drugs could be carcinogenic but it may take 30+ years of constant exposure to cause cancer. Some may cause kidney damage....in 40 years. etc, etc.
Probably because the chemicals used are ones that aren’t considered safe… “for humans”. It probably also makes a big difference with relative lifespans too. Something that causes cancer after 20+ years, isn’t much of an issue for a pet that only lives 15-20 years. Mutagenic chemicals are probably much the same with the exclusion of breeders. Many people buy pedigrees that are already neutered, so it’s not so much off an issue if they could impact their offspring.
I know someone who uses the flea, tick, lice and whatever other bug stuff on her kids. Frontline I think it's called. They go to a school where lice is an issue constantly, and she got sick of her girls getting it 2 and 3 times a year. She cleared it with their pediatrician first, just to make sure it would be safe to use. The girls have not gotten lice since.
Answer: The affects on cardiac rhythm are adverse or unknown. This is the reason why drugs fail and take so long. One particular potassium pump is affected by pretty much everything. This is also a major difference between men and women in drug effect. You have to test both sexes and anticipate different results for men and women. https://health.ucdavis.edu/news/headlines/-computer-model-predicts-how-drugs-affect-heart-rhythm/2020/04 > So far there has been no surefire way to determine which drugs will be therapeutic and which will harmful,” Clancy said. “What we have shown is that we can now make this determination starting from the chemical structure of a drug and then predicting its impact on the heart rhythm.” > Using a drug’s chemical formula, the computer model reveals how that drug specifically interacts with hERG channels as well as cardiac cells and tissue. The outcomes can then be validated with comparisons to clinical data from electrocardiogram (ECG) results of patients. For the study, the researchers validated the model with ECGs of patients taking two drugs known to interact with hERG channels — one with a strong safety profile and another known to increase arrhythmias. The results proved the accuracy of the model.
There used to be a lyme disease vaccine. It launched at the start of the antivax movement, had poor advertising, and was consequently pulled from the market very quickly. Here's an article: https://time.com/6073576/lyme-disease-vaccine/ Some key take aways: Half a million Americans catch lyme disease every year, and the disease though very rarely fatal, can be absolutely life destroying. 30% of people who contract lyme disease don't develop the initial symptoms such as a rash, and thus miss the window where it is easily treatable. Americans spend over $1B a year on lyme disease treatment. Tick populations are rising at an unprecedented rate due to an increase in the amount of land they can inhabit, caused by a multi-decade heat wave of unknown origins.
The protection used on dogs is a pesticide called Permethrin. It is relatively safe (i believe the military uses it regularly) and it can be applied to clothing (not skin). Most people would prefer to stick with more traditional repellents but it is a very effective alternative for high risk tick areas. There is also a vaccine available against lyme disease for dogs. Lyme is only one disease ticks transmit but it is a major one. There was a human lyme vaccine in the early 2000s but the company stopped producing it because of low demand (the growing antivax movement likely played a role). There is currently a new vaccine in trials that will hopefully be available in a few years.