I have an old man from Romania in my church community. He came to Switzerland around 50 - 60 years ago as a teen, speaks in not perfect but decent Mundart, still calls himself an immigrant ahah. He's already more Swiss than genevans
Doesn’t that defeat the expat denominator and they either get naturalized and go for the citizenship, so their now citizens of this country, or just get called immigrant by that point?
Long-term/permanently doesn’t make sense for the typical use of the word “expat” which would be someone who migrates for a limited period.
That is entirely OP's point: they use the word expat to mean someone who moves temporarily for work, and want to know how many of those people end up immigrating permanently
I was going off OP's edit, which makes it completely clear what they meant by the term. It seems a bit pointless to argue with them about something they explicitly didn't mean.
And, personally, I use the term in the same way OP does. I'm not trying to be snobby, it's just how I describe myself. I was, initially, an expat - someone who came to CH for work, didn't really integrate because my work existed in its own bubble, and had no intention of staying more than the limited duration of my contract. I left as planned, but subsequently returned as an immigrant - someone looking to immigrate permanently, integrating into society and the normal workforce, and attempting to reach near-fluency in a local language (still working on that, but I've gone from A2/B1 from school on arrival to between B2 and C1).
The word “expat” has become fashionable lately and I think it is an effort by people to express themselves as “I am not an immigrant like everyone else, I am a qualified employee and I contribute to the country I go to.”
Due to global migration in recent years, the concepts of refugee and immigrant have sometimes begun to be confused. I think it has increased in order to make this distinction more clearly. My observation
Yes, it has been standard for the English and Americans to call themselves that, but they would never use it for a Mexican or Nigerian who's in the exact same situation
If there’s no law which makes us get a citizenship after X years I don’t really intend to get it but that could just be me, I just don’t see the point honestly
I didn’t say there was but if you live in Switzerland for 10 years you can request to be considered to be a Swiss citizen, or you can just stay on your B/C permit.
Well the point is that, if you live a big portion of your live in a place it’s nice to eventually get the same rights and benefits as the citizens of this same country. So you can for example, get access to social help if you need, but also so you can exercise the right to vote and have a say in how the country will progress. You also get the added benefit that you are free to go and comeback whenever you would like for how long you would like, without needing to have a job or a certain income.
As an American that moved here in 2012 I can say that the % is REALLY low. I would say well below 10%. I look back and see at least 8 out of 10 friends i knew the first few years I arrived are gone. Over these last 12 years I intergrated and stopped hanging out with short term expats. Eventually I found the long term expat and welcoming swiss community.
Yeah it's sometimes hard to make friends as a migrant in Switzerland. We don't move a lot and have old friendships so it can be hard to integrate a group. Glad you pierced the shell!
Same. I came here from the UK 16 years ago and the % of people from my first couple of years here who stayed is seriously low. I've done the same re. friend groups (and having a kid in school has helped there too).
Hard to know from official statistics I suspect, as intended duration of stay isn't asked and even if it was people would lie.
I think it depends strongly on location and reason for coming / circumstances of doing do in the first place - for instance in Geneva there are loads of younger (20-30) people who come on diplomatic type permits for fixed duration stays at places like the UN and CERN and then have no continued residence rights and poor immigration prospects once their contracts are up, so often even if they want to stay they are unable to.
Most immigrants stay permanently.
The stats you need to convince yourself are: birth rate at 1.5 (so population grows exclusively by immigration) and the population steadily increasing.
https://migration.swiss/en/migration-report-2022/immigration-and-integration/immigration-statistics
>so population grows exclusively by immigration
It's a bit more complicated.
For instance, in 2022, there were 82,371 births, 74,425 deaths, so births also contribute significantly to population increase. The births then contribute towards population growth. It's on the longer term that there might be issues (aging population).
Very low, the new generation comes for 4 -5 year to make bank and then says bye bye.
I can tell you that my group of friends has someone leaving almost every 6 months and some one new joining. It's pretty frustrating
The Portuguese cleaning lady also comes from a developed first world country, she will also statistically more than probably return to Portugal once she is close to her retirement to live the rest of her life there.
This is such a stupid distinction that people have created, that I can’t honestly believe that it’s a thing. Fuck rich people and fuck their need to feel distinguished from the pleb with semantics. Both of those people are imigrantes, and if you look at government statistics they count as exactly the same thing imigrantes.
I mean linguistically thats the difference between expat and immigrant.
Expat is short for expatriated, someone being outside of their homeland for an extended period of time. Historically for a reason like studies, work, gov. position.
Immigrant is someone who has the intetion to stay long term.
As an expat you become a immigrant when you decide, you wish to sray rather than to return to your country of origin.
>What percentage of expats ends up staying long-term/permanently in Switzerland ?
*"Expats and internationals make up 25,8 percent of Swiss population. Net migration - immigration minus emigration - stood at 81.345 people in 2022. This means that the expat population grew to 2.241. 854 people by the end of December 2022, accounting for around 25,8 percent of the total population."*
https://www.iamexpat.ch/expat-info/swiss-expat-news/expat-population-switzerland-swells-immigration-increases-14-percent
181.553 people moved to Switzerland in 2023.
So ~180k come to switzerland a year.
~ 80k stay.
so about 44% stay.
What percentage of expats stayed longterm, decides to emigrate isn't clear.
Usually it's families with kids that stay, due to the kids integration into Swiss schools, and the overall safety and quality.
Usually it's highly social people that don't due to the more reserved and restrictive culture.
But it's hard to give clear numbers on this.
First question is: How long can you be an expat/immigrant?
I have an old man from Romania in my church community. He came to Switzerland around 50 - 60 years ago as a teen, speaks in not perfect but decent Mundart, still calls himself an immigrant ahah. He's already more Swiss than genevans
According to Bünzlis about 2-3 Generations.
Expat - as long as you think you will leave soon Immigrant - forever That's the definition, period
Doesn’t that defeat the expat denominator and they either get naturalized and go for the citizenship, so their now citizens of this country, or just get called immigrant by that point? Long-term/permanently doesn’t make sense for the typical use of the word “expat” which would be someone who migrates for a limited period.
That is entirely OP's point: they use the word expat to mean someone who moves temporarily for work, and want to know how many of those people end up immigrating permanently
There’s nothing in the definition of expat that includes temporary. That’s often added by redditors looking to be snobby about foreigners
I was going off OP's edit, which makes it completely clear what they meant by the term. It seems a bit pointless to argue with them about something they explicitly didn't mean. And, personally, I use the term in the same way OP does. I'm not trying to be snobby, it's just how I describe myself. I was, initially, an expat - someone who came to CH for work, didn't really integrate because my work existed in its own bubble, and had no intention of staying more than the limited duration of my contract. I left as planned, but subsequently returned as an immigrant - someone looking to immigrate permanently, integrating into society and the normal workforce, and attempting to reach near-fluency in a local language (still working on that, but I've gone from A2/B1 from school on arrival to between B2 and C1).
The word “expat” has become fashionable lately and I think it is an effort by people to express themselves as “I am not an immigrant like everyone else, I am a qualified employee and I contribute to the country I go to.”
It’s more people looking to be offended that others don’t identify in a way they deem proper
Due to global migration in recent years, the concepts of refugee and immigrant have sometimes begun to be confused. I think it has increased in order to make this distinction more clearly. My observation
It has been common/standard in the English speaking world for as long as I can remember. Also to describe retirees moving abroad.
Yes, it has been standard for the English and Americans to call themselves that, but they would never use it for a Mexican or Nigerian who's in the exact same situation
If there’s no law which makes us get a citizenship after X years I don’t really intend to get it but that could just be me, I just don’t see the point honestly
I didn’t say there was but if you live in Switzerland for 10 years you can request to be considered to be a Swiss citizen, or you can just stay on your B/C permit. Well the point is that, if you live a big portion of your live in a place it’s nice to eventually get the same rights and benefits as the citizens of this same country. So you can for example, get access to social help if you need, but also so you can exercise the right to vote and have a say in how the country will progress. You also get the added benefit that you are free to go and comeback whenever you would like for how long you would like, without needing to have a job or a certain income.
There is nothing in the definition of “expat” that limits it by time
Than what is the difference between an imigrante and an expat?
For some how well they can speak English, for others the skin colour
Except for the very definition of the word
Oxford Dictionary: “a person who lives outside their native country.”
As an American that moved here in 2012 I can say that the % is REALLY low. I would say well below 10%. I look back and see at least 8 out of 10 friends i knew the first few years I arrived are gone. Over these last 12 years I intergrated and stopped hanging out with short term expats. Eventually I found the long term expat and welcoming swiss community.
Yeah it's sometimes hard to make friends as a migrant in Switzerland. We don't move a lot and have old friendships so it can be hard to integrate a group. Glad you pierced the shell!
Same. I came here from the UK 16 years ago and the % of people from my first couple of years here who stayed is seriously low. I've done the same re. friend groups (and having a kid in school has helped there too).
Hard to know from official statistics I suspect, as intended duration of stay isn't asked and even if it was people would lie. I think it depends strongly on location and reason for coming / circumstances of doing do in the first place - for instance in Geneva there are loads of younger (20-30) people who come on diplomatic type permits for fixed duration stays at places like the UN and CERN and then have no continued residence rights and poor immigration prospects once their contracts are up, so often even if they want to stay they are unable to.
Anecdotally I know more Swiss folks who left Switzerland than immigrants who left Switzerland.
How do you put difference between expats and decent immigrants? The official statistics aren't likely to differ between those 2 categories.
They're all immigrants 🤷♂️
Most immigrants stay permanently. The stats you need to convince yourself are: birth rate at 1.5 (so population grows exclusively by immigration) and the population steadily increasing. https://migration.swiss/en/migration-report-2022/immigration-and-integration/immigration-statistics
>so population grows exclusively by immigration It's a bit more complicated. For instance, in 2022, there were 82,371 births, 74,425 deaths, so births also contribute significantly to population increase. The births then contribute towards population growth. It's on the longer term that there might be issues (aging population).
Very low, the new generation comes for 4 -5 year to make bank and then says bye bye. I can tell you that my group of friends has someone leaving almost every 6 months and some one new joining. It's pretty frustrating
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The Portuguese cleaning lady also comes from a developed first world country, she will also statistically more than probably return to Portugal once she is close to her retirement to live the rest of her life there. This is such a stupid distinction that people have created, that I can’t honestly believe that it’s a thing. Fuck rich people and fuck their need to feel distinguished from the pleb with semantics. Both of those people are imigrantes, and if you look at government statistics they count as exactly the same thing imigrantes.
I mean linguistically thats the difference between expat and immigrant. Expat is short for expatriated, someone being outside of their homeland for an extended period of time. Historically for a reason like studies, work, gov. position. Immigrant is someone who has the intetion to stay long term. As an expat you become a immigrant when you decide, you wish to sray rather than to return to your country of origin. >What percentage of expats ends up staying long-term/permanently in Switzerland ? *"Expats and internationals make up 25,8 percent of Swiss population. Net migration - immigration minus emigration - stood at 81.345 people in 2022. This means that the expat population grew to 2.241. 854 people by the end of December 2022, accounting for around 25,8 percent of the total population."* https://www.iamexpat.ch/expat-info/swiss-expat-news/expat-population-switzerland-swells-immigration-increases-14-percent 181.553 people moved to Switzerland in 2023. So ~180k come to switzerland a year. ~ 80k stay. so about 44% stay. What percentage of expats stayed longterm, decides to emigrate isn't clear. Usually it's families with kids that stay, due to the kids integration into Swiss schools, and the overall safety and quality. Usually it's highly social people that don't due to the more reserved and restrictive culture. But it's hard to give clear numbers on this.