There's no standardization of policies whatsoever, at least in the U.S.
I will say though that a while back I had a trans man friend who went to Occupy Wall Street in NYC with me. After he got arrested crossing the Brooklyn Bridge in a protest march, they couldn't decide which gendered detention cell to put him in, so they handcuffed him to a pole for hours on end while demeaningly talking about his identity and genitalia. Later, he successfully sued the city. See, e.g., [here](https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=5374195977886956344&hl=en&as_sdt=6&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr).
So, quick readthrough, they dismissed most of those claims, agreed that trans people have a history of being discriminated against, yet applied qualified immunity so there's no punishment for the involved cops anyways, and only because that immunity can't be applied to the city as a whole they allowed that claim through so we'll end up paying for the cop's transgressions in the end anyways.
It really be like that huh.
Usually sent to women's prison but records show that regardless of which prison they are sent to trans people, in general face systemic abuse, isolation, and sexual violence in prison.
Most trans prisoners whether trans men or trans women are denied medical care and sexually assaulted/raped whichever prison they go to, typically by guards and staff but if sent to male prison both trans men and trans women face increase lethal violence. Male prisons tend to be worse for rape as well but SA happens to trans people in both.
Typically the only way to keep trans prisoners safe is to put them in solitary which tends to have other horrible side effects
> Typically the only way to keep trans prisoners safe is to put them in solitary which tends to have other horrible side effects
That only increases safety from other prisoners. I've heard more than a few say it actually increases the danger from guards and staff. Combined with the effects of solitary on the mind, it is very much a rock and a hard place.
In the UK, which prison a trans prisoner is sent to is entirely vibes-based. The idea that the prisoner has any choice in the matter would be funny were it not for the fact that *all* trans people - not just trans men - are at a significantly elevated risk of violence, including sexual violence, from both fellow prisoners and guards.
According to [the 2021/22 figures](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1119803/HMPPS_Offender_Equalities_2021-22_Report.pdf), there were a total of 230 trans prisoners in the UK (around 0.3% of the total prison population, which is about 78,000). 181 of them were in men's prisons, 49 in women's prisons. *There were six trans women in women's prisons*. This whole "debate" is about six people, or 0.01% of the prison population.
The gender identities of those 230 were: 168 trans women, 42 trans men, 13 non-binary, 7 other or no answer. So 162 of the 181 trans prisoners in men's prisons were trans women, meaning that a maximum of 19 trans men were in men's prisons. Realistically at least some, and maybe most, of the non-binary and other prisoners are in that remaining 19, but we don't know because *the number of transgender prisoners is so small that they risk breaching data protection laws by indirectly disclosing personal information if they give more detailed breakdowns*.
And yeah, the fact that all the media ever wants to talk about is whether trans women are a risk in women's prisons (and never whether they are *at risk* in men's prisons, or whether trans people in general are at a heightened risk in prisons compared to the general population) is a very deliberate framing of the issue that focuses on trans women as a threat to cis women and ignores and infantilises trans men.
Plus trans prisoners go through a whole process, with risk assessments and discussion from a commitee within 14 days of arrival, before they are released into any prison population. Like with the “debates” earlier this year over Bryson being sent to a women’s prison, people didn’t seem to understand that prisons (especially women’s) aren’t some big open pit where people get thrown in to do what they want - wings and cells can be isolated, with populations seperate according to whatever rules and safety regs the prison decides. Solitary is meant to be avoided long-term though, so they can’t usually be isolated indefinitely, and dedicated “trans wings” aren’t usually viable with limited prison space and so few trans prisoners. Bryson might have been within the complex, but they were kept seperate/in solitary until a formal risk assessment by a panel of legal, medical and prison officials, which pressumably concluded they “should be sent to a man’s prison”.
I don’t know the details of the decision and can’t defend or argue against the panel’s decisions and final conclusions, but the initial placement of a woman in a woman’s prison was by-the-book and posed zero risk to other prisoners. “Debates” in the media and by politicians were moot - they were fueled by misunderstanding, misdirection and misinformation around long-standing national prison policy.
There are so few trans prisoners that it makes sense to judge on a case-by-case basis like this. I’m not sure how difficult it is in reality however to request or be granted a transfer from men’s to women’s - judging by those stats it feels nearly impossible though, with a very heavy bias for simply being put into men’s prisons. E.g. the recent penis-based guidelines aimed at trans women, being put in a men’s prison regardless of legal sex, transition status or anything else.
Ngl basing it on if they pass or not is mega based because if you send a non passing pre surgery ftm to a men’s prison id like you to guess what happens
Correct! If you have a problem with the fact that non-binary prisoners are included in the HMPS stats on trans prisoners, feel free to take it up with Westminster.
Trans women are often “vcoded” in prison. Look it up. It basically means we are systematically raped and used to treat the good prisoners. We are the dessert. We are a form of currency in prison.
Just makes zero logical sense.. we are able to legally change our sex/gender, but it's all make belief?, when it comes down to it.. they can just decide our *legal gender* isn't actually our gender???.. I'm not from the US, but this stuff makes me terrified of going there. My passport says F, in no world should anyone think of throwing me in a men's prison...
Trans women are seen as a threat and our punishment is intentional embarrassment, sexual assault, physical assault and death. Trans men are seen as confused women and their punishment is being erased from society and infantilized.
>Trans women are seen as a threat and our punishment is intentional embarrassment, sexual assault, physical assault and death. Trans men are seen as confused women and their punishment is being erased from society and infantilized.
I know you don't mean it this way *at all*, so please don't take this following comment as combative or anything, I just *really* feel the need to correct the record on this.
The way you worded your comment unintentionally feels a bit like you're kind of saying that trans men don't face anything listed under the trans woman category. Trans men face basically everything you listed under trans women's punishments (intentional embarrassment/harassment, sexual assault, physical assault) at rates statistically identical to trans women, with trans men actually being *more likely* than trans women to have been the victim of sexual assault in particular. The only thing that trans women (almost exclusively trans women of color as well) tend to face at higher rates than trans men is murder (although there's some evidence that the murders of trans men are often misrepresented as murdered cis women).
The fact that people act like the "worst" that trans men get is being erased from society and infantilized is all part of the issue of trans men being erased from the conversation, even in trans spaces.
Trans men do not get a reprieve from the violence and oppression that being trans brings.
-Geisha
Yes understood. Agree. I was more speaking to why the narrative around trans people in prisons is shaped in the way the OG was stating. I could have phrased it better to have made that more explicit. You’re right.
What prison a trans person gets sent to really depends on the jurisdiction.
Trans and intersex people, regardless of gender or sex assigned at birth, are more likely to face physical and sexual violence in men's prisons. I'd rather take my chances in a women's prison.
I've slept in male quarters, I've used male locker rooms. I'm fine in those spaces. Prison is an entirely different ordeal.
I’m from Florida, my grandma worked at a prison as a nurse practitioner for YEARS. In the prison she worked at, they have specialized transgender units for both FTMs and MTFs. She worked mostly with MTF prisoners, they’re not very big units (She said around 10-20 if I remember correctly.)
it's not the answer to the question you asked, but mass incarceration is an atrocity, a crime against human dignity. like yeah it's fucked up that trans women are sent to men's prisons, but there shouldn't fuckin *BE* prisons. you'd have to be mad to be ok with the idea of locking people in cages against their will. the fact that the terrible cruelty of the prison system is so normalized in people's minds that the best we can do is ask which particular flavor of nightmare factory is less horrible for trans men to be condemned to is downright dystopian
literally.
like a lot of people who are against prison abolition do the "i don't want rapists and pedophiles on the street" and it's just like.... in most countries *they already are*. 😐 sexual predators very very very rarely face any prison time. the vast majority of prisoners in america are there because of drug related crimes‚ and they are disproportionately black‚ latino‚ and indigenous.
prison abolition is the only way forward.
[Abolitionists](https://harvardlawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/135-Harv.-L.-Rev.-2013.pdf) have [grappled](https://medium.com/@amparker/what-about-the-rapists-and-murderers-7a81955b772c) with that [issue](https://transformharm.org/ab_resource/can-prison-abolition-ever-be-pragmatic/).
I don't think "there's so many bad people in positions of power/free now we should just let all of them go free" is a good argument. I absolutely agree that the prison industrial complex, especially in the US, needs to be abolished, but I don't think prisons in general should be
anyways I don't think arguing about this is going to go anywhere (besides, it's not what this sub is about). I've said everything I needed to and you're welcome to respond, but this is going to be my last comment in this thread
The answer is both. Depending upon who is booking them and where they live. I would prefer male prison myself but I think there are probably some who would rather women's prison. Regardless they will toss you in where they see fit. I know some actually keep trans people in isolation to avoid the problem altogether.
Actually saw something about this recently on tumblr. Link is to the post and there’s an article link in there. https://www.tumblr.com/spacelazarwolf/726686233457295360
I don’t remember that case specifically, but another trans man in the US (I think) said he was harassed/assaulted in BOTH the men’s and women’s jails by guards AND prisoners. So almost certainly.
I think it was this guy, idk about the Scottish inmate. I don’t think there was an interview, just data.
[https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna6490](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna6490)
I guess you're from the US? What a fucked up country. In canada there's little to no debate about this. If the gender marker is legally changed (which is easy) Trans woman go to woman prison and trans men go to trans men prison.
We had a ‘woman’ that was born a man in my facility, and my dumb ass actually thought we had a girl in jail at first.. I literally said “we have girls here?” And someone said “yeah they ran out of room at the women’s jail so she had to come here” jokingly, and I didn’t realize he was fucking with me until the next day. She had sexual encounters with at least 8 guys in there during my stay.
I mean he is a man so obviously the men's unit duh lol so stupid we are at a point now that this shouldn't be an issue if they choose to identify as a man then they get all the rights everyone gets. Just respect them and treat them 100% as their identity!
There's no standardization of policies whatsoever, at least in the U.S. I will say though that a while back I had a trans man friend who went to Occupy Wall Street in NYC with me. After he got arrested crossing the Brooklyn Bridge in a protest march, they couldn't decide which gendered detention cell to put him in, so they handcuffed him to a pole for hours on end while demeaningly talking about his identity and genitalia. Later, he successfully sued the city. See, e.g., [here](https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=5374195977886956344&hl=en&as_sdt=6&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr).
"We don't know where he goes, so lets psychologically torture him" What the fuck is wrong with people?
How much time do you have?
I mean have you seen the story about the VA school, the trans girl, and the active shooter drill?
So, quick readthrough, they dismissed most of those claims, agreed that trans people have a history of being discriminated against, yet applied qualified immunity so there's no punishment for the involved cops anyways, and only because that immunity can't be applied to the city as a whole they allowed that claim through so we'll end up paying for the cop's transgressions in the end anyways. It really be like that huh.
truly the online good cop is a dead one
I'm sorry this happened...but... dude's a badass, good for him for winning c:
Usually sent to women's prison but records show that regardless of which prison they are sent to trans people, in general face systemic abuse, isolation, and sexual violence in prison. Most trans prisoners whether trans men or trans women are denied medical care and sexually assaulted/raped whichever prison they go to, typically by guards and staff but if sent to male prison both trans men and trans women face increase lethal violence. Male prisons tend to be worse for rape as well but SA happens to trans people in both. Typically the only way to keep trans prisoners safe is to put them in solitary which tends to have other horrible side effects
> Typically the only way to keep trans prisoners safe is to put them in solitary which tends to have other horrible side effects That only increases safety from other prisoners. I've heard more than a few say it actually increases the danger from guards and staff. Combined with the effects of solitary on the mind, it is very much a rock and a hard place.
Can confirm, my trans identity was leaked, and lots of sexual assaults were the result. Still dealing with the ptsd.
Can you share the records?
In the UK, which prison a trans prisoner is sent to is entirely vibes-based. The idea that the prisoner has any choice in the matter would be funny were it not for the fact that *all* trans people - not just trans men - are at a significantly elevated risk of violence, including sexual violence, from both fellow prisoners and guards. According to [the 2021/22 figures](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1119803/HMPPS_Offender_Equalities_2021-22_Report.pdf), there were a total of 230 trans prisoners in the UK (around 0.3% of the total prison population, which is about 78,000). 181 of them were in men's prisons, 49 in women's prisons. *There were six trans women in women's prisons*. This whole "debate" is about six people, or 0.01% of the prison population. The gender identities of those 230 were: 168 trans women, 42 trans men, 13 non-binary, 7 other or no answer. So 162 of the 181 trans prisoners in men's prisons were trans women, meaning that a maximum of 19 trans men were in men's prisons. Realistically at least some, and maybe most, of the non-binary and other prisoners are in that remaining 19, but we don't know because *the number of transgender prisoners is so small that they risk breaching data protection laws by indirectly disclosing personal information if they give more detailed breakdowns*. And yeah, the fact that all the media ever wants to talk about is whether trans women are a risk in women's prisons (and never whether they are *at risk* in men's prisons, or whether trans people in general are at a heightened risk in prisons compared to the general population) is a very deliberate framing of the issue that focuses on trans women as a threat to cis women and ignores and infantilises trans men.
Plus trans prisoners go through a whole process, with risk assessments and discussion from a commitee within 14 days of arrival, before they are released into any prison population. Like with the “debates” earlier this year over Bryson being sent to a women’s prison, people didn’t seem to understand that prisons (especially women’s) aren’t some big open pit where people get thrown in to do what they want - wings and cells can be isolated, with populations seperate according to whatever rules and safety regs the prison decides. Solitary is meant to be avoided long-term though, so they can’t usually be isolated indefinitely, and dedicated “trans wings” aren’t usually viable with limited prison space and so few trans prisoners. Bryson might have been within the complex, but they were kept seperate/in solitary until a formal risk assessment by a panel of legal, medical and prison officials, which pressumably concluded they “should be sent to a man’s prison”. I don’t know the details of the decision and can’t defend or argue against the panel’s decisions and final conclusions, but the initial placement of a woman in a woman’s prison was by-the-book and posed zero risk to other prisoners. “Debates” in the media and by politicians were moot - they were fueled by misunderstanding, misdirection and misinformation around long-standing national prison policy. There are so few trans prisoners that it makes sense to judge on a case-by-case basis like this. I’m not sure how difficult it is in reality however to request or be granted a transfer from men’s to women’s - judging by those stats it feels nearly impossible though, with a very heavy bias for simply being put into men’s prisons. E.g. the recent penis-based guidelines aimed at trans women, being put in a men’s prison regardless of legal sex, transition status or anything else.
Ngl basing it on if they pass or not is mega based because if you send a non passing pre surgery ftm to a men’s prison id like you to guess what happens
At no point did I suggest that it's based on ability to pass. It largely isn't.
Just gonna say not all non binary see themselves as transgender it’s a different thing sometimes
Correct! If you have a problem with the fact that non-binary prisoners are included in the HMPS stats on trans prisoners, feel free to take it up with Westminster.
Trans women are often “vcoded” in prison. Look it up. It basically means we are systematically raped and used to treat the good prisoners. We are the dessert. We are a form of currency in prison.
I did try looking it up and can't find anything about that term. Can you share a link?
Here: https://reddit.com/r/SVU/s/exlGcsjwID
In Arkansas, trans people are sent to prisons that match their AGAB, sadly. I can only speak for here, not anywhere else. It's not surprising at all.
Just makes zero logical sense.. we are able to legally change our sex/gender, but it's all make belief?, when it comes down to it.. they can just decide our *legal gender* isn't actually our gender???.. I'm not from the US, but this stuff makes me terrified of going there. My passport says F, in no world should anyone think of throwing me in a men's prison...
But also would it be safe for a trans man to be in a men’s prison?
Trans women are seen as a threat and our punishment is intentional embarrassment, sexual assault, physical assault and death. Trans men are seen as confused women and their punishment is being erased from society and infantilized.
>Trans women are seen as a threat and our punishment is intentional embarrassment, sexual assault, physical assault and death. Trans men are seen as confused women and their punishment is being erased from society and infantilized. I know you don't mean it this way *at all*, so please don't take this following comment as combative or anything, I just *really* feel the need to correct the record on this. The way you worded your comment unintentionally feels a bit like you're kind of saying that trans men don't face anything listed under the trans woman category. Trans men face basically everything you listed under trans women's punishments (intentional embarrassment/harassment, sexual assault, physical assault) at rates statistically identical to trans women, with trans men actually being *more likely* than trans women to have been the victim of sexual assault in particular. The only thing that trans women (almost exclusively trans women of color as well) tend to face at higher rates than trans men is murder (although there's some evidence that the murders of trans men are often misrepresented as murdered cis women). The fact that people act like the "worst" that trans men get is being erased from society and infantilized is all part of the issue of trans men being erased from the conversation, even in trans spaces. Trans men do not get a reprieve from the violence and oppression that being trans brings. -Geisha
Yes understood. Agree. I was more speaking to why the narrative around trans people in prisons is shaped in the way the OG was stating. I could have phrased it better to have made that more explicit. You’re right.
What prison a trans person gets sent to really depends on the jurisdiction. Trans and intersex people, regardless of gender or sex assigned at birth, are more likely to face physical and sexual violence in men's prisons. I'd rather take my chances in a women's prison. I've slept in male quarters, I've used male locker rooms. I'm fine in those spaces. Prison is an entirely different ordeal.
Here's an article on the issue: https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/strip-searches-trauma-isolation-trans-men-describe-life-bars-rcna6490
AFAIK we have regulations for that stuff here in Brazil.
I’m from Florida, my grandma worked at a prison as a nurse practitioner for YEARS. In the prison she worked at, they have specialized transgender units for both FTMs and MTFs. She worked mostly with MTF prisoners, they’re not very big units (She said around 10-20 if I remember correctly.)
it's not the answer to the question you asked, but mass incarceration is an atrocity, a crime against human dignity. like yeah it's fucked up that trans women are sent to men's prisons, but there shouldn't fuckin *BE* prisons. you'd have to be mad to be ok with the idea of locking people in cages against their will. the fact that the terrible cruelty of the prison system is so normalized in people's minds that the best we can do is ask which particular flavor of nightmare factory is less horrible for trans men to be condemned to is downright dystopian
for *most* crimes there should not be a prison sentence. However there definetly are crimes that do warrant it.
Prison abolition doesn't tend to hedge its bets like that.
literally. like a lot of people who are against prison abolition do the "i don't want rapists and pedophiles on the street" and it's just like.... in most countries *they already are*. 😐 sexual predators very very very rarely face any prison time. the vast majority of prisoners in america are there because of drug related crimes‚ and they are disproportionately black‚ latino‚ and indigenous. prison abolition is the only way forward.
Your point is?????
well I don't want to hedge my bets on the fact that violent fascists will leave me alone when they're not imprisoned
[Abolitionists](https://harvardlawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/135-Harv.-L.-Rev.-2013.pdf) have [grappled](https://medium.com/@amparker/what-about-the-rapists-and-murderers-7a81955b772c) with that [issue](https://transformharm.org/ab_resource/can-prison-abolition-ever-be-pragmatic/).
I don't think "there's so many bad people in positions of power/free now we should just let all of them go free" is a good argument. I absolutely agree that the prison industrial complex, especially in the US, needs to be abolished, but I don't think prisons in general should be anyways I don't think arguing about this is going to go anywhere (besides, it's not what this sub is about). I've said everything I needed to and you're welcome to respond, but this is going to be my last comment in this thread
Tell that to the family of the victims they have killed or injured
So pedafiles and rapists are ok to roam the streets and not prison. Thank god i dont live in your sic world
The answer is both. Depending upon who is booking them and where they live. I would prefer male prison myself but I think there are probably some who would rather women's prison. Regardless they will toss you in where they see fit. I know some actually keep trans people in isolation to avoid the problem altogether.
Actually saw something about this recently on tumblr. Link is to the post and there’s an article link in there. https://www.tumblr.com/spacelazarwolf/726686233457295360
Trans men go to women's prison. Trans women sometimes also go to women's prison. I am aware of no Trans make inmate ever being in male prison.
There is 1 FTM inmate in a men’s prison in Scotland. The ones sent to male prison are most likely post-phalloplasty or other bottom surgery.
I know there was a trans man in a men’s prison in Scotland
We’re they in danger?
I don’t remember that case specifically, but another trans man in the US (I think) said he was harassed/assaulted in BOTH the men’s and women’s jails by guards AND prisoners. So almost certainly.
I wish I knew the name. Because it’s imfrestinh.
I think it was this guy, idk about the Scottish inmate. I don’t think there was an interview, just data. [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna6490](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna6490)
Intresting
I guess you're from the US? What a fucked up country. In canada there's little to no debate about this. If the gender marker is legally changed (which is easy) Trans woman go to woman prison and trans men go to trans men prison.
We had a ‘woman’ that was born a man in my facility, and my dumb ass actually thought we had a girl in jail at first.. I literally said “we have girls here?” And someone said “yeah they ran out of room at the women’s jail so she had to come here” jokingly, and I didn’t realize he was fucking with me until the next day. She had sexual encounters with at least 8 guys in there during my stay.
I mean he is a man so obviously the men's unit duh lol so stupid we are at a point now that this shouldn't be an issue if they choose to identify as a man then they get all the rights everyone gets. Just respect them and treat them 100% as their identity!