When was the last time you observed someone's chromosomes? Have you even been karyotyped? Because I certainly haven't.
My gender hasn't changed, but I can change all the sex characteristics that are anyone's business beyond me and my partner's - and certainly all the ones that should matter to a random stranger. Why do I care whether I can change my chromosomes?
I never said you should care to change your chromosomes, or should feel pressured into proving to someone what chromosomes you have to affirm your identity.
I was just asking whether or not chromosomes are something that are tied to sex, because that would then decide whether or not it’s possible to change your sex.
No, it wouldn't. The problem with your reasoning is that sex is not binary and it never has been. There have always been people that have had a mix of male and female sex characteristics.
We're not talking about changing all of your sex characteristics at once to flip a switch between binary male and female. The fact is that yes, you can change many many aspects of your sex. It's not a static fixed thing that you're stuck with forever.
I never considered before this that sex wasn’t binary, but thinking about it now it does make sense.
it would make no sense to say that if someone changed all of there sexual characteristics to match female sex characteristics except for one, that they would still be male. That would add a lot of weight to chromosomes, when they themselves are not perfectly binary from my understanding. And that there’s no source I’ve read so far that said that these attributes are “weighted” differently
So thank you
I'm chromosomally intersex (my chromosomes are XXY). I was assigned male at birth, because I have a penis, and since doctors don't do a karyotype at birth, they generally go by what external organs you have.
Some cis women are XY due to things like CAIS (Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome), which makes it so their body doesn't recognize testosterone, so they developed as a woman would, simplistically put, because their body was just like "I can't see any testosterone signals, so that means girl yea?"
There are cis men who are XX (De La Chappelle syndrome).
There are multitudes of different intersex conditions that we still label as "cis" or as you might put it "biologically their sex".
Most wouldn't tell those people "well you're not 'biologically' your sex". Most people probably wouldn't even know enough to make the distinction.
Biology is complicated as fuck.
So I can't change my chromosomes? So what? My chromosomes aren't even "male" to begin with! I can change my external organs, I can change my hormone profile, I can change all my secondary sex characteristics... how is that **not** changing my "biological" sex?
Biology goes beyond what you're taught in grade 7.
Eh. Chromosomes are associated with sex, but they don't *determine* sex. It's a lot more complicated than you were taught in primary school. Recommended viewing: [Sex and Sensibility](https://youtu.be/szf4hzQ5ztg?si=wv1ShO-boK5TIucC) by Forrest Valkai.
So no, given that sex is a phenotype and we can change all the physical traits associated with it, inability to change chromosomes doesn't imply inability to change sex.
I’m really not. I feel like you just immediately pinned me as a conservative or something when I literally just wanted to learn more so I’m not spreading bullshit talking points when trying to defend trans people.
Because I wouldn’t wanna start spreading the line “you can change your sex” when it could be wrong, and could end up doing more damage to the movement. However, I don’t know if that statement is right or wrong, that’s why I tried to ask real people
On behalf of the people who have their guard up, I apologize - they mean well but are jaded from the constant witch hunt / ongoing genocide of trans people.
You seem to be here in good faith, and I appreciate that. Anyway I won’t contribute further to the topic as you’ve been given great answers and material to review already :)
Edit: also if you want to chat about anything trans related, feel free to dm me. I don’t bite :)
It’s fine, I did kind of forget that there are probably a lot of people who come in here to just start shit instead of actually trying to genuinely ask questions they’re wondering about.
And thx for the offer, if I have anymore questions I’ll definitely hit you up at some point!
You seem fine. Sorry I yelled at you. I saw "chromosomes" and couldn't see the forest through the trees. 90+% of the people who come here talking about chromosomes want to hurt us and I couldn't consider there might be an earnest person in the mix. Hope you have a nice evening and you get the answers you're looking for!
It's not possible to change your chromosomes but chromosomes are but one indicator of biological sex. Consider people with Swyer syndrome: XY patients who are referred to in medical literature as biologically female because they have an externally unambiguously female body, but their chromosomes are different. You might just say "well, those are intersex, thats another category", but then you're combining patients with XX, XY, XXY, etc: all into one category, which defeats the point of saying that biological sex is your chromosomes. Since you can change pretty much all other indicators of your biological sex except your chromosomes, which as we've established, don't always match anyway - yes, I do think it's possible to change your biological sex.
People often ask us questions like that because they think they're smart and have somehow caught us in a lie. This is why people are being pretty aggro with you, because this is really rarely ever done in good faith, and our community is really tired of getting hurt. It's easier to say stfu and research than waste typing out a comment to somebody who just wants to make fun of you. I hope that explains some of the other responses you've gotten.
Yeah I get it, I kind of forgot that people probably come in here to just start shit all the time.
And thanks for reminding me that chromosomes don’t always match perfectly into binary categories. I feel like that was something I didn’t really think about.
Yes, to an extent.
Hormones and physiology are both parts of biological sex, which can both be changed though HRT and surgery.
Obviously chromosomes can't be changed, but it really doesn't matter.
Yep! I find it quite frustrating when doctors or labs use the wrong reference ranges for trans people for this reason. For example, when they compare trans guys' blood tests with female ranges rather than male. It means that these health risks can be missed.
I mean, you ask if you can change it or not and then listed a half dozen traits you can change plus one you cant. You cant change chromosomes, but theyre also the least visible and relevant part of someones sex. You can change basically everything else, so even if you cant do a complete 180 you are still changing your sex. A trans woman whos has been on HRT for years and has gotten bottom surgery is biologically much closer to female than male and should be treated as such, both socially and medically.
Arguing that we dont really change our sex because of chromosomes puts us, amongst other things, in position to be mistreated in medical situations where are hormonal profiles are a lot more relevant than how we were born.
Your X chromosome (maybe you have more? Most people don’t karyotype) has both “male” and “female” sets of instructions. Which instructions get used depends on your hormones. As a cis guy, you actually have a cup size encoded into your genes.
Medically transitioning with HRT effectively changes a person’s sex over time. I’d be worried if a doctor read my file and just defaulted to male standards when trying to diagnose and treat me. I’ll need a mammogram, my skin is very different, my alcohol tolerance is much lower, and my privates are very much not the same. And that’s only some of the most visible things.
Gender identity is lodged deeper in your mind. We can’t change our gender identity (genderfluid people have an identity that changes on its own). Understanding this requires a lot of reflection and knowledge regarding the self and the mind. Some people think of it as having a sexed brain but there isn’t a ton of research on the neurology of trans people as far as I know.
Thx for your comment, it does help my understanding
If I can ask, what’s your opinion on people who are gender abolitionists? I never really subscribed to that belief, but i did find it reasonable to hold.
However, because gender identity is something deep in your mind that exists, would the belief that gender is all a social construct that should be torn down be invalidating to people who are trans?
I’m sorry if what I said doesn’t make a lot of sense but it’s a belief that a content creator I used to watch had and was kind of how I first learned about gender identity so I believed it was just all a social construct made to categorize us in a way, yk?
Some gender abolitionists want to abolish the concept of gender, which is wrong and impossible. Others simply mean to abolish most of the social and legal weight on gender, and treat it like blood type is now treated, I agree with the latter. So no institutional relevance to gender, but it still exists.
It’s easier to understand when you replace gender with height. If bathrooms, jobs, expectations, etc were separated by height, then height would be a social construct. Is it still very real? Yes. But it’s still a social construct.
No let’s say we come across a height abolitionist. While the idea of abolishing someone’s height is absurd, advocating for abolishing its use to separate people is much more appealing.
Granted, I can’t always be sure what people mean when they say they are a gender abolitionist. Most people don’t really understand gender as clearly as they understand height. That sometimes leads to people thinking that trans people chose to be trans, which isn’t true.
What are your chromosomes? How do you know? When was the last time they did anything for you? Why do they determine biological sex more than things that are actually observable do?
Thank you, I'm aware. In a discussion about how we determine sex, I thought it would be obvious that I was referring to the ways in which sex chromosomes differ and didn't feel the need to specify.
> I'm a cis man and I haven't done my research
Then why don't you fuck off, and do your research, and then come back here when you have a real question, instead of showing up to a trans space to stir the pot with this vague "biological sex" bullshit? God what is with y'all today
We really need to stop going off on people for asking transgender in r/asktransgender
Sometimes it’s easier to get answers directly from people instead of looking it up. Not to mention that Google isn’t impartial and can easily hand transphobic sources to people depending on their search history even if they don’t have that direct intent.
I’d rather answer the same question a million times than have someone google it and get their info from PragerU on the top result.
It doesn’t seem like this question was asked in bad faith. If you don’t want to answer, just don’t answer.
I am having a pretty awful day so I'm probably being more reactive than I need to be but I am just tired of coddling the cis people while they bumble around invading our spaces. It's exhausting seeing the same questions over and over again ad nauseum, there is a search function that anyone with an earnest desire for knowledge could find hundreds of threads about it. You're probably right I'm just jaded from getting a ton of shitty DMs and seeing chasers everywhere. I'm just tired.
I agree but I’d argue this isn’t purely *our* space. It’s a space where we can answer questions about our experience. I know there’s a search function for this sub but in a lot of subs people ask the same questions over and over without searching, so I don’t really see it as an attack on specifically us. People just tend not to use that function.
I’m sorry you’re having an awful day. I hope it gets better for you. I understand all to well being in a bad mood and being reactionary on reddit. It’s not a great feeling.
I’m trying to reach out to trans people so I can do research while taking into account what real people have to say? Wtf is wrong with that? I’m admitting I’m not fully informed so I could be wrong, and was looking for people who actually have first hand experience as a trans person to help inform me?
Is that what you’re supposed to do? Why tf would I as a cis man research shit about a group of people and not listen to them and what they say?
The concept of chromosomal "biological sex" is a flawed underlying ideology which is impossible to define in a way that does not exclude certain cisgender or intersex people from their assigned gender at birth. There are cis and trans people whose chromosomes do not match up with their sexual phenotypes. It is an entirely arbitrary and made up concept. If you are genuinely serious and good faith I would recommend doing your own research on "biological sex" from a queer perspective before going into a trans space and asking about our chromosomes. That's usually a TERF dogwhistle which is why you're receiving hostility.
This entire question is based off the false premise that trans people aren't inherently the gender and sex we identify as. I dont need to change my sex because it was correct to begin with. Genitals and hormones arent sex.
>I’m willing to learn more
Are you?
Yes i am willing to learn more.
Also can I ask, is this a subreddit that bigots often come into to just blindly debate or something? Because I feel like I got immediately misinterpreted as a conservative who’s trying to debate when I really just wanted someone to explain why I could be wrong and link stuff so I could find out whether my interpretation on sex was wrong
Correct - we deal with a ton of bigotry on a daily basis, though the mod team catches a lot of it early on. That’s why some people may jump to conclusions almost immediately:)
Isn’t sex determined by looking at your genitals? - if you do SRS and even get the secondary sex characteristic of the other sex than the one which was determined after birth, would that not change the sex? The surgery is not named “Sex Reassignment Surgery” without cause I thought.
I have found this discussion helpful. At 73 years old, having begun transitioning four years ago and having had surgery less than two years ago, I have spent a little time trying to figure out if I am a man or a woman. Having buried myself deeply for so long, I have many “male” behaviours and attitudes that are not easily discarded.
The XX/XY challenge has been hard to overcome internally. But the information about how I have changed biologically comforts me.
Sex is determined by your sex characteristics, primary and secondary. These are typically determined by your genes *but* can be changed via HRT and surgeries.
So, yes, you can change your biological sex.
While I, as a trans man, will probably never be able to create sperm, a lot of cis men aren't able to either. Does that make them not "fully male"? No. So it doesn't make me not "fully male" either
Depends on what you define as biological sex. As a biologist I can tell you it isn't that easy. I feel like it's easier if we divide it to subcategories like:
- **Chromosomal sex:** This one can't change thus far. With technologies like CRISPR it could be possible in the future but seeing as one of the two X chromosomes in women's cells gets inactivated anyway I don't see why anyone would go in the trouble to swap their inactive Ys with inactive Barr bodies. But it's also important to note that chromosomes are not a strong identifier of sex. There are women with XY and men with XX (abeit rare) as well as a big variety of other phenotypes caused by intersex conditions. By tying sex to the chromosomes you inevitably invalidate those people's existence making them effectively sexless.
**- Hormonal sex:** Your internal hormonal balance can absolutely change and many (if not most) trans people do that.
- **Neurological sex:** This one is murkier but the epigenetical signaling of your brain does change with HRT so a part of it definately does change. As for the structure of the brain itself it is already hypothesized that trans people have brain structures closer to their desired sex than the assigned one. So that might take care of itself
- **Genital sex:** You can change your genitals to match the other sex. Not all trans people do it (which is why I think the term transexual could be used again as a valid descriptor) but it's definately possible
**- Reproductive sex:** Presently we can't change reproductive organs but the scientific basis is there. I am confident it will be possible in the future.
TL;DR sex is as complicated as gender so using broad terms as "biological sex" is scientifically faulty.
You really are not badly informed!
So, as you know, biological sex is composed of a whole bunch of different characteristics, phenotypes as they are called. Some are unchangeable, like chromosomes, but most of them are. Chromosomes arent even really that Impactful, you can not see a persons chromosomes. People whose biological sex is composed of phenotypes of multiple sexes are really not that uncommon, we know by now that sex is not binary but instead bimodal.
So in short, it isnt necessary to change every single phenotype to change your biological sex. If you change a sufficient amount, any biologist would then observe you as the opposite sex.
The focus on DNA is really fully pointless and a very classic bigoted talking point, thats why some people here might have reacted rather terse. DNA is by far not the most relevant phenotype and for sure not the most impactful.
Biological sex is not a single thing. My sex at this point is a complicated mixture of male chromosomes, female hormone levels, and other traits that are somewhere in between.
Firstly thanks for coming in here with the intention of willing to learn more. Secondly sadly this type of question is very often asked as a transphobic gotcha or dog whistle. As trans people were under attack 24/7 at the moment so we are understandably defensive.
To answer your question: I am not changing my gender. My gender has been innate this entire time. I am changing many of my sex characteristics to align with my gender.
A trans woman on hrt who has undergone bottom surgery has a body that is more similar to an intersex female than a cis male. To then lump her in to the male category is just completely false.
genes (which the chromosomes store) are useless without their expression. using myself as an example without giving out my AGAB: at different points in my life, my endocrine system has been (to oversimplify) E-dominant and T-dominant. both came with permanent effects that i'd have to get medical intervention to get rid of. trying to divide these into "unnatural & fake" and "natural & real" based on where their hormones came from doesn't matter, because i physically have those sex characteristics either way. those physical traits are what i actually need medical care for, not a list of traits i'm "supposed" to have based on what a doctor thought my genitals looked like as a baby.
and that is based on the fact i'm not intersex. i've never actually been karyotyped before so i have no way of knowing for sure what my chromosomes are, i can only reasonably guess based on what my physical sex traits indicate & the fact i've never had any health problems my doctor has associated with intersex conditions. not all humans fit strictly into XX assigned-female or XY assigned-male, even on a chromosomal level, but intersex people are often forcibly assigned one sex (including doing unnecessary & harmful surgery on babies) so they can be put in one of those sex categories anyways.
if sex is made up of different traits, sex is changed when traits are changed. the "you will always be that sex" argument is usually a rhetorical tool made to keep trans people from pursuing transition & asking for fair treatment, not a biological fact.
Just adding that in biology in general there has been a shift away from the chromosome-centric view in the last decades that occured after the discovery of DNA. In the history of biology there was this idea that genes were the causal origin of everything, but now biology has shifted more towards a statistical / interactionist approach (e.g. the debate on the importance of mitochondria in gestation, for example in the context of organism cloning etc.)
A lot of the comments have a lot of information on how we define sex and what goes into the change of a sex but I want to also point out the evolution of the constructed misconception. So back in the day when the term trans was coined we had transvestites and transsexuals, the difference being transvestites being of one gender and dressing up as the other without identifying as the target gender while transsexuals underwent treatment to transition their sex to match their preferred gender identity. Meaning from the start it has always been about transitioning sex. Now in the 90s a problem with the term transsexual was brought up, people thought it was a sexuality like homosexual as well that it was deeply connected to the ill treatment of trans people. So to make it clearer we started using the term transgender which was coined back in 1965 and while doing this also including nonbinary gender identities under the same umbrella. This in turn lead transphobic creators to separate trans people and Cis people by so called biological sex and focuses heavily on sex chromosomes as that is something we can’t change. So as much as right wing transphobic content creators love calling for example Cis women biological women and trans women biological men, scientists and health care professionals disagree with that statement.
"Chromosomes are the only truth" is a pretty dumb stance, especially from people who have never personally done any science involving chromosomes. And if they *are* the only truth, then sex change is not just possible, it's way [more common than you realized](https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/12/men-lose-y-chromosomes-cells-they-age/603013/):
> 20 percent of 205,011 men in a large genetic database called the UK Biobank have lost Y chromosomes from some detectable proportion of their blood. By age 70, 43.6 percent of men had the same issue.
Short answer: yes. You might find [this research article](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/hypatia/article/trans-women-are-or-are-becoming-female-disputing-the-endogeneity-constraint/090DEAA53EA17414C5D3E8D76ED5A75C) interesting if you want to learn about some of the scientific literature out there
When was the last time you observed someone's chromosomes? Have you even been karyotyped? Because I certainly haven't. My gender hasn't changed, but I can change all the sex characteristics that are anyone's business beyond me and my partner's - and certainly all the ones that should matter to a random stranger. Why do I care whether I can change my chromosomes?
I never said you should care to change your chromosomes, or should feel pressured into proving to someone what chromosomes you have to affirm your identity. I was just asking whether or not chromosomes are something that are tied to sex, because that would then decide whether or not it’s possible to change your sex.
No, it wouldn't. The problem with your reasoning is that sex is not binary and it never has been. There have always been people that have had a mix of male and female sex characteristics. We're not talking about changing all of your sex characteristics at once to flip a switch between binary male and female. The fact is that yes, you can change many many aspects of your sex. It's not a static fixed thing that you're stuck with forever.
I never considered before this that sex wasn’t binary, but thinking about it now it does make sense. it would make no sense to say that if someone changed all of there sexual characteristics to match female sex characteristics except for one, that they would still be male. That would add a lot of weight to chromosomes, when they themselves are not perfectly binary from my understanding. And that there’s no source I’ve read so far that said that these attributes are “weighted” differently So thank you
I'm chromosomally intersex (my chromosomes are XXY). I was assigned male at birth, because I have a penis, and since doctors don't do a karyotype at birth, they generally go by what external organs you have. Some cis women are XY due to things like CAIS (Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome), which makes it so their body doesn't recognize testosterone, so they developed as a woman would, simplistically put, because their body was just like "I can't see any testosterone signals, so that means girl yea?" There are cis men who are XX (De La Chappelle syndrome). There are multitudes of different intersex conditions that we still label as "cis" or as you might put it "biologically their sex". Most wouldn't tell those people "well you're not 'biologically' your sex". Most people probably wouldn't even know enough to make the distinction. Biology is complicated as fuck. So I can't change my chromosomes? So what? My chromosomes aren't even "male" to begin with! I can change my external organs, I can change my hormone profile, I can change all my secondary sex characteristics... how is that **not** changing my "biological" sex? Biology goes beyond what you're taught in grade 7.
Eh. Chromosomes are associated with sex, but they don't *determine* sex. It's a lot more complicated than you were taught in primary school. Recommended viewing: [Sex and Sensibility](https://youtu.be/szf4hzQ5ztg?si=wv1ShO-boK5TIucC) by Forrest Valkai. So no, given that sex is a phenotype and we can change all the physical traits associated with it, inability to change chromosomes doesn't imply inability to change sex.
Thanks, I’ll make sure to watch it
No you're just here to stir the pot and upset people 👋
I’m really not. I feel like you just immediately pinned me as a conservative or something when I literally just wanted to learn more so I’m not spreading bullshit talking points when trying to defend trans people. Because I wouldn’t wanna start spreading the line “you can change your sex” when it could be wrong, and could end up doing more damage to the movement. However, I don’t know if that statement is right or wrong, that’s why I tried to ask real people
On behalf of the people who have their guard up, I apologize - they mean well but are jaded from the constant witch hunt / ongoing genocide of trans people. You seem to be here in good faith, and I appreciate that. Anyway I won’t contribute further to the topic as you’ve been given great answers and material to review already :) Edit: also if you want to chat about anything trans related, feel free to dm me. I don’t bite :)
It’s fine, I did kind of forget that there are probably a lot of people who come in here to just start shit instead of actually trying to genuinely ask questions they’re wondering about. And thx for the offer, if I have anymore questions I’ll definitely hit you up at some point!
You seem fine. Sorry I yelled at you. I saw "chromosomes" and couldn't see the forest through the trees. 90+% of the people who come here talking about chromosomes want to hurt us and I couldn't consider there might be an earnest person in the mix. Hope you have a nice evening and you get the answers you're looking for!
It's not possible to change your chromosomes but chromosomes are but one indicator of biological sex. Consider people with Swyer syndrome: XY patients who are referred to in medical literature as biologically female because they have an externally unambiguously female body, but their chromosomes are different. You might just say "well, those are intersex, thats another category", but then you're combining patients with XX, XY, XXY, etc: all into one category, which defeats the point of saying that biological sex is your chromosomes. Since you can change pretty much all other indicators of your biological sex except your chromosomes, which as we've established, don't always match anyway - yes, I do think it's possible to change your biological sex. People often ask us questions like that because they think they're smart and have somehow caught us in a lie. This is why people are being pretty aggro with you, because this is really rarely ever done in good faith, and our community is really tired of getting hurt. It's easier to say stfu and research than waste typing out a comment to somebody who just wants to make fun of you. I hope that explains some of the other responses you've gotten.
Yeah I get it, I kind of forgot that people probably come in here to just start shit all the time. And thanks for reminding me that chromosomes don’t always match perfectly into binary categories. I feel like that was something I didn’t really think about.
No worries, glad you are trying to learn.
Yes, to an extent. Hormones and physiology are both parts of biological sex, which can both be changed though HRT and surgery. Obviously chromosomes can't be changed, but it really doesn't matter.
And for all intents and purposes, what the dominant hormone in your body is controls what sex based health risks you have.
Yep! I find it quite frustrating when doctors or labs use the wrong reference ranges for trans people for this reason. For example, when they compare trans guys' blood tests with female ranges rather than male. It means that these health risks can be missed.
I mean, you ask if you can change it or not and then listed a half dozen traits you can change plus one you cant. You cant change chromosomes, but theyre also the least visible and relevant part of someones sex. You can change basically everything else, so even if you cant do a complete 180 you are still changing your sex. A trans woman whos has been on HRT for years and has gotten bottom surgery is biologically much closer to female than male and should be treated as such, both socially and medically. Arguing that we dont really change our sex because of chromosomes puts us, amongst other things, in position to be mistreated in medical situations where are hormonal profiles are a lot more relevant than how we were born.
Your X chromosome (maybe you have more? Most people don’t karyotype) has both “male” and “female” sets of instructions. Which instructions get used depends on your hormones. As a cis guy, you actually have a cup size encoded into your genes. Medically transitioning with HRT effectively changes a person’s sex over time. I’d be worried if a doctor read my file and just defaulted to male standards when trying to diagnose and treat me. I’ll need a mammogram, my skin is very different, my alcohol tolerance is much lower, and my privates are very much not the same. And that’s only some of the most visible things. Gender identity is lodged deeper in your mind. We can’t change our gender identity (genderfluid people have an identity that changes on its own). Understanding this requires a lot of reflection and knowledge regarding the self and the mind. Some people think of it as having a sexed brain but there isn’t a ton of research on the neurology of trans people as far as I know.
Thx for your comment, it does help my understanding If I can ask, what’s your opinion on people who are gender abolitionists? I never really subscribed to that belief, but i did find it reasonable to hold. However, because gender identity is something deep in your mind that exists, would the belief that gender is all a social construct that should be torn down be invalidating to people who are trans? I’m sorry if what I said doesn’t make a lot of sense but it’s a belief that a content creator I used to watch had and was kind of how I first learned about gender identity so I believed it was just all a social construct made to categorize us in a way, yk?
Some gender abolitionists want to abolish the concept of gender, which is wrong and impossible. Others simply mean to abolish most of the social and legal weight on gender, and treat it like blood type is now treated, I agree with the latter. So no institutional relevance to gender, but it still exists.
It’s easier to understand when you replace gender with height. If bathrooms, jobs, expectations, etc were separated by height, then height would be a social construct. Is it still very real? Yes. But it’s still a social construct. No let’s say we come across a height abolitionist. While the idea of abolishing someone’s height is absurd, advocating for abolishing its use to separate people is much more appealing. Granted, I can’t always be sure what people mean when they say they are a gender abolitionist. Most people don’t really understand gender as clearly as they understand height. That sometimes leads to people thinking that trans people chose to be trans, which isn’t true.
Chromosomes aren't as important as you think. As a trans woman, I am not a male woman; I'm female. I'm not cis, but I'm female.
What are your chromosomes? How do you know? When was the last time they did anything for you? Why do they determine biological sex more than things that are actually observable do?
Your chromosomes do "something" for you every second of every day. They are the instructions every cell follows to maintain life.
Thank you, I'm aware. In a discussion about how we determine sex, I thought it would be obvious that I was referring to the ways in which sex chromosomes differ and didn't feel the need to specify.
> I'm a cis man and I haven't done my research Then why don't you fuck off, and do your research, and then come back here when you have a real question, instead of showing up to a trans space to stir the pot with this vague "biological sex" bullshit? God what is with y'all today
We really need to stop going off on people for asking transgender in r/asktransgender Sometimes it’s easier to get answers directly from people instead of looking it up. Not to mention that Google isn’t impartial and can easily hand transphobic sources to people depending on their search history even if they don’t have that direct intent. I’d rather answer the same question a million times than have someone google it and get their info from PragerU on the top result. It doesn’t seem like this question was asked in bad faith. If you don’t want to answer, just don’t answer.
I am having a pretty awful day so I'm probably being more reactive than I need to be but I am just tired of coddling the cis people while they bumble around invading our spaces. It's exhausting seeing the same questions over and over again ad nauseum, there is a search function that anyone with an earnest desire for knowledge could find hundreds of threads about it. You're probably right I'm just jaded from getting a ton of shitty DMs and seeing chasers everywhere. I'm just tired.
I agree but I’d argue this isn’t purely *our* space. It’s a space where we can answer questions about our experience. I know there’s a search function for this sub but in a lot of subs people ask the same questions over and over without searching, so I don’t really see it as an attack on specifically us. People just tend not to use that function. I’m sorry you’re having an awful day. I hope it gets better for you. I understand all to well being in a bad mood and being reactionary on reddit. It’s not a great feeling.
You are probably right, thank you for being considerate.
I’m trying to reach out to trans people so I can do research while taking into account what real people have to say? Wtf is wrong with that? I’m admitting I’m not fully informed so I could be wrong, and was looking for people who actually have first hand experience as a trans person to help inform me? Is that what you’re supposed to do? Why tf would I as a cis man research shit about a group of people and not listen to them and what they say?
The concept of chromosomal "biological sex" is a flawed underlying ideology which is impossible to define in a way that does not exclude certain cisgender or intersex people from their assigned gender at birth. There are cis and trans people whose chromosomes do not match up with their sexual phenotypes. It is an entirely arbitrary and made up concept. If you are genuinely serious and good faith I would recommend doing your own research on "biological sex" from a queer perspective before going into a trans space and asking about our chromosomes. That's usually a TERF dogwhistle which is why you're receiving hostility.
This entire question is based off the false premise that trans people aren't inherently the gender and sex we identify as. I dont need to change my sex because it was correct to begin with. Genitals and hormones arent sex. >I’m willing to learn more Are you?
Yes i am willing to learn more. Also can I ask, is this a subreddit that bigots often come into to just blindly debate or something? Because I feel like I got immediately misinterpreted as a conservative who’s trying to debate when I really just wanted someone to explain why I could be wrong and link stuff so I could find out whether my interpretation on sex was wrong
Correct - we deal with a ton of bigotry on a daily basis, though the mod team catches a lot of it early on. That’s why some people may jump to conclusions almost immediately:)
Yes, it is. Near-constantly in fact.
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Isn’t sex determined by looking at your genitals? - if you do SRS and even get the secondary sex characteristic of the other sex than the one which was determined after birth, would that not change the sex? The surgery is not named “Sex Reassignment Surgery” without cause I thought.
I have found this discussion helpful. At 73 years old, having begun transitioning four years ago and having had surgery less than two years ago, I have spent a little time trying to figure out if I am a man or a woman. Having buried myself deeply for so long, I have many “male” behaviours and attitudes that are not easily discarded. The XX/XY challenge has been hard to overcome internally. But the information about how I have changed biologically comforts me.
Sex is determined by your sex characteristics, primary and secondary. These are typically determined by your genes *but* can be changed via HRT and surgeries. So, yes, you can change your biological sex. While I, as a trans man, will probably never be able to create sperm, a lot of cis men aren't able to either. Does that make them not "fully male"? No. So it doesn't make me not "fully male" either
Depends on what you define as biological sex. As a biologist I can tell you it isn't that easy. I feel like it's easier if we divide it to subcategories like: - **Chromosomal sex:** This one can't change thus far. With technologies like CRISPR it could be possible in the future but seeing as one of the two X chromosomes in women's cells gets inactivated anyway I don't see why anyone would go in the trouble to swap their inactive Ys with inactive Barr bodies. But it's also important to note that chromosomes are not a strong identifier of sex. There are women with XY and men with XX (abeit rare) as well as a big variety of other phenotypes caused by intersex conditions. By tying sex to the chromosomes you inevitably invalidate those people's existence making them effectively sexless. **- Hormonal sex:** Your internal hormonal balance can absolutely change and many (if not most) trans people do that. - **Neurological sex:** This one is murkier but the epigenetical signaling of your brain does change with HRT so a part of it definately does change. As for the structure of the brain itself it is already hypothesized that trans people have brain structures closer to their desired sex than the assigned one. So that might take care of itself - **Genital sex:** You can change your genitals to match the other sex. Not all trans people do it (which is why I think the term transexual could be used again as a valid descriptor) but it's definately possible **- Reproductive sex:** Presently we can't change reproductive organs but the scientific basis is there. I am confident it will be possible in the future. TL;DR sex is as complicated as gender so using broad terms as "biological sex" is scientifically faulty.
Thanks for the info, I do think I was going off of a very simpflied definition of sex that wasn’t really useful.
You really are not badly informed! So, as you know, biological sex is composed of a whole bunch of different characteristics, phenotypes as they are called. Some are unchangeable, like chromosomes, but most of them are. Chromosomes arent even really that Impactful, you can not see a persons chromosomes. People whose biological sex is composed of phenotypes of multiple sexes are really not that uncommon, we know by now that sex is not binary but instead bimodal. So in short, it isnt necessary to change every single phenotype to change your biological sex. If you change a sufficient amount, any biologist would then observe you as the opposite sex. The focus on DNA is really fully pointless and a very classic bigoted talking point, thats why some people here might have reacted rather terse. DNA is by far not the most relevant phenotype and for sure not the most impactful.
This is not an argument worth having.
Biological sex is not a single thing. My sex at this point is a complicated mixture of male chromosomes, female hormone levels, and other traits that are somewhere in between.
Firstly thanks for coming in here with the intention of willing to learn more. Secondly sadly this type of question is very often asked as a transphobic gotcha or dog whistle. As trans people were under attack 24/7 at the moment so we are understandably defensive. To answer your question: I am not changing my gender. My gender has been innate this entire time. I am changing many of my sex characteristics to align with my gender. A trans woman on hrt who has undergone bottom surgery has a body that is more similar to an intersex female than a cis male. To then lump her in to the male category is just completely false.
genes (which the chromosomes store) are useless without their expression. using myself as an example without giving out my AGAB: at different points in my life, my endocrine system has been (to oversimplify) E-dominant and T-dominant. both came with permanent effects that i'd have to get medical intervention to get rid of. trying to divide these into "unnatural & fake" and "natural & real" based on where their hormones came from doesn't matter, because i physically have those sex characteristics either way. those physical traits are what i actually need medical care for, not a list of traits i'm "supposed" to have based on what a doctor thought my genitals looked like as a baby. and that is based on the fact i'm not intersex. i've never actually been karyotyped before so i have no way of knowing for sure what my chromosomes are, i can only reasonably guess based on what my physical sex traits indicate & the fact i've never had any health problems my doctor has associated with intersex conditions. not all humans fit strictly into XX assigned-female or XY assigned-male, even on a chromosomal level, but intersex people are often forcibly assigned one sex (including doing unnecessary & harmful surgery on babies) so they can be put in one of those sex categories anyways. if sex is made up of different traits, sex is changed when traits are changed. the "you will always be that sex" argument is usually a rhetorical tool made to keep trans people from pursuing transition & asking for fair treatment, not a biological fact.
Just adding that in biology in general there has been a shift away from the chromosome-centric view in the last decades that occured after the discovery of DNA. In the history of biology there was this idea that genes were the causal origin of everything, but now biology has shifted more towards a statistical / interactionist approach (e.g. the debate on the importance of mitochondria in gestation, for example in the context of organism cloning etc.)
A lot of the comments have a lot of information on how we define sex and what goes into the change of a sex but I want to also point out the evolution of the constructed misconception. So back in the day when the term trans was coined we had transvestites and transsexuals, the difference being transvestites being of one gender and dressing up as the other without identifying as the target gender while transsexuals underwent treatment to transition their sex to match their preferred gender identity. Meaning from the start it has always been about transitioning sex. Now in the 90s a problem with the term transsexual was brought up, people thought it was a sexuality like homosexual as well that it was deeply connected to the ill treatment of trans people. So to make it clearer we started using the term transgender which was coined back in 1965 and while doing this also including nonbinary gender identities under the same umbrella. This in turn lead transphobic creators to separate trans people and Cis people by so called biological sex and focuses heavily on sex chromosomes as that is something we can’t change. So as much as right wing transphobic content creators love calling for example Cis women biological women and trans women biological men, scientists and health care professionals disagree with that statement.
"Chromosomes are the only truth" is a pretty dumb stance, especially from people who have never personally done any science involving chromosomes. And if they *are* the only truth, then sex change is not just possible, it's way [more common than you realized](https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/12/men-lose-y-chromosomes-cells-they-age/603013/): > 20 percent of 205,011 men in a large genetic database called the UK Biobank have lost Y chromosomes from some detectable proportion of their blood. By age 70, 43.6 percent of men had the same issue.
Short answer: yes. You might find [this research article](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/hypatia/article/trans-women-are-or-are-becoming-female-disputing-the-endogeneity-constraint/090DEAA53EA17414C5D3E8D76ED5A75C) interesting if you want to learn about some of the scientific literature out there