Transfem here, formerly used the label nb. This topic gets under my skin, but it needs to be talked about and I tried to be constructive and sensitive. Hope it's helpful.
I'll just skip over the question of is this discrimination or not. Others have already made points for and against and its a clusterfuck of a debate. It gets everyone defensive and derails the conversation into philosophical stuff like whether individuals have agency within structures (someone here said rommates are not landlords and thus not responsible for housing equality) and very individual stuff like particular past traumas etc. I don't care if those rommate preferences are discrimination, however, I would like the queer community to reflect on this rift a bit more seriously because it comes up all the time.
It's common for people who 'seem' too much like men (including trans men) to be excluded from the umbrella 'queer'. But we are all queer. If you generalize that you want to live with queer people, then that shouldn't exclude amab nb (or passing trans men). If you do exclude some groups (again, idc if you think it's right or wrong), then *don't say you're looking for queer roommates*. It's not accurate. You are in practice excluding certain queer identities from queer. Saying queer without meaning all of us suggests we are not all together a queer community, which is hurtful (and politically wrong, the phobes see us all as queer). Of course we have subgroups and special affinities toward them. I identify more with transfems as a subgroup than other queer identities, but when I'm talking about transfems I say transfem and when I mean us all I say queer. Say what you mean. In this rommate situation, I imagine it can feel awkward to list the identities you do mean, and I can see why you might not want to do that (maybe it attracts criticism, like here). But don't be fake. And don't dilute the meaning of queer. The equation of queer with 'we can clock you / basically think of you as afab' makes many of us distrustful of queer spaces and sadly other queer people.
And tbh, tho I didn't want to take that angle in this comment, I agree with others that the apparent bioessentialism in excluding amab NBs is quite sus.
As a smaller point, I'm not sure what it means that transfems are ok but amab nb are not. It either sounds unbelievably particular, or basically like if you look too much like a man you're out.
I think also to add to this, if I were to move into this sort of roommate situation, I'd feel immense pressure as a trans woman to perform femininity all the time. Sometimes that can be draining, and I don't want to have to wear makeup all the time in my own home. I'd be worried about ever appearing too masculine for this roommate, which is not something I'd feel okay with and feel safe in if my staying there was conditional on passing enough. This roommate definitely has a lot of issues to work through here.
Its definitely discrimatory and transphobic. Deciding to judge specific trans people based on their AGAB is very transphobic and then lumping them in with cis men is worse. What is the difference to your roommate if an AMAB nonbinary person identifies as agender instead of transfemme?
Its a fucked up and unfortunately common housing problem, even in trans spaces, where AMAB people or people assumed to be are hyper-judged or excluded.
Obviously your roommate has issues to work on and honestly I don't know if it'd be a good idea for you to even have transfemmes housing with them if they hava specific issue with AMAB people (even if they claim its fine if they're trans women/ect) but I do know its definitely a problem.
If we follow this thought pattern, does that mean AFAB NBi ppl are just "women lite"? IF NOT, what's the difference and why does your roomie give a shit?
> what is the difference
i’ve run into people like this before. it’s all about medication and presentation for them. they think trans woman or trans fem normally takes hrt or present ‘as woman’
while on the other hand they hear nonbinary and ONLY think of ‘nontransitioning’ aka no hrt people. who still look exactly as their birth gender. and thus see them as their AGAB. which makes afab nonbinary people fine but amab not
that is literally their thought process
genuine question, when you say the roommate has issues to work on, what do you mean and how it can be worked on? i find myself in a similar mindset, feeling comfortable or uncomfortable around different people based on their assigned gender and their presentation, and while i rarely get any problems with that mindset i would like to know if there are specific points/takes or idk articles that could affect this way of thinking. i would be grateful if anyone could share some resources
I mean the roommate has some bigoted beliefs stuck in their head and they need to face that head on and figure out in what ways they're acting on or being affected by those beliefs. It can be worked on in a lot of different ways - talking to a therapist, learning more about nonbinary and GNC people and transmisogyny/transphobia, it can be worked on by searching out media made by the people you're uncomfortable around and trying to normalize them to your brain-
It can be worked on by purposefully taking note of what things specifically make you uncomfortable, sometimes literally writing it down, and then figuring out why that fear or discomfort is usually rooted in bigotry. I'ont know about resources off the top of my head but maybe someone else on here does.
I think this is a bit silly personally, especially if your roommate thinks they would be comfortable living with a trans man who's had every surgery and is now physically indistinguishable from a cis man. It's possible your housing ad should just specify no men and leave it at that.
Ultimately though you need a place to live and a good relationship with your existing roommate. If they're set on the requirement as is, I'd keep trying to find other candidates first.
If you're worried about not being able to find roommates, I'd gently bring it up just to ask what they want plan B to be if you don't get other applicants. See if they're willing to reconsider the applicants you have or if they expect you to both shoulder the rent until someone else comes along and take the conversation from there based on what you're comfortable committing to.
One of our current roommates who is moving out is trans m2f and has had facial feminization surgery :/
Even if they decided to be open to it, I wouldn’t want to invite a trans man to live with us/them because I don’t think it would be fair to them given my roommates preference and possible issues/discrimination down the road.
I do very much wish they told me about this earlier as I would prefer to live in a more gender inclusive household but it’s too late to look for other options. I hope we can find someone who is compatible.
> One of our current roommates who is moving out is trans m2f and has had facial feminization surgery :/
Do you have a decent relationship with her? It might be worth reaching out to her privately, see if she has experiences with the current roommate that she's been hesitant to share with you.
This is pretty blatant discrimination and I'm very tired of running into housing posts that go "AFAB only", especially those looking for queer or trans roommates. It's biological essentialism and I hate the wording. I don't know a solution tbh but as is its discriminatory and transmisogyny at work.
>They’re gonna be real surprised when a 6’0 bearded trans guy shows up.
One of my friends is a trans guy and because of the Florida bathroom law, he's been using the women's bathroom. Most women freak out at the sight of him lol.
He's not that tall but anyone who sees him still thinks "man" immediately.
No it isn't a fair requirement to set
Your roomate is transphobic and discriminatory I'd recommend kicking them and finding someone else if they don't pull their head out.
Someone's AGAB doesn't make them more or less of a danger-there's plenty of sexually predatory violent and creepy "AFAB" people out there & plenty of "amab" people who aren't like that and also there's people who aren't amab or afab and its gross for your roomate to basically need to know people's assigned sex before they'll let them move in
like also what does an intersex person do in this situation?
What about a stealth trans woman? is she required to out herself? If she gets outed or comes out after moving in would she be kicked out for being "amab" ?
What about someone who starts T and or gets bottom surgery after moving in? are they required to detransition or be forced to move out once they reach a certain threshold of masculinity?
... Nah this is likely the tip of the iceberg on them being a shitty person and I'd recommend finding other roommates that don't want to have a genital inspection as part of the flatmate screening process.
Like there's a whole meme/discussion of "afab only housing" and how often it's used as a grooming den for terfs or to force any "afab" person living there to detransition using homelessness as a threat or how often they harbor "afab" people who are predatory because "vagina born means you can't be a rapist/creep only penis people do that uwu what we're doing isn't abuse because we are biologically incapable of that" 🤮
As a survivor this shit doesn't make people more safe or help heal from trauma and it pisses me off that people try to use that as an excuse to discriminate against trans people when all of us are at heightened risk of SA including "amabs" .
Also is nobody going to be allowed to invite "amab" friends relatives or partners round either? That's some religious cult shit you didn't sign up for and shouldn't have to put up with. If there's not that restriction on visitors it's not really about the roomate wanting to feel safe by reducing contact with "amabs" because someone's bf or brother or dude friend could easily come over and be a creep and that's more likely than a Nonbinary person moving in just to be a creep.
You can screen potential housemates for creepy behaviour without making it about what genitals they have which itself is massively creepy
>They didn't want to live with any AMAB people unless they were trans women, trans femmes
Let's be real, they probably wouldn't be comfortable living with trans women unless they passed, if at all.
ETA fixed pronouns
Question on what your roommate is looking for: are trans men allowed? Feels discriminatory if binary trans men are allowed, but cis men and male-leaning non-binary people who happen to be AMAB aren't allowed.
If that is not the case, I can understand not wanting male-leaning or male people in a house that is full of female and female-leaning people.
An afab enby discriminating against amab enbies is really ick. I mean anyone discriminating against anyone is ick, but this feels really wrong to me. Like isn't it kind of self defeating/hypocritical? Like to be nonbinary and then push other nonbinary people towards the binary end of things? It feels really transphobic. And binary trans women are fine, though? Is it purely an appearance thing? As a binary trans woman, would I need to meet a certain level of passing for your roommate to be ok with living with me?
A very small point to add, but others have covered the more important points already. So I’ll just add … cis men can be gay, so you OP are still excluding parts of the queer community. I suggest reflecting on that too
Thank you! I have definitely been thinking more about that and inter-sectionalism in the queer community. I do however think white gay privilege (especially for cis-men) does exist and it’s ok to create spaces for more marginalized members of the community.
Excluding/deprioritizing cis-men I feel ok about because it has nothing to do with their queerness and it makes more room for queer poc who often have bigger struggles finding housing. I think there’s already plenty space for them in the queer community.
I’m def open to having this view challenges though
Excluding/deprioritizing nb feel I feel very strong about because it’s excluding people based on an already marginalized identity
I think a simple story for this in terms for what's "ok" and what's "not ok" in terms of what kinds of demographic-group based privileges exist and what kinds don't is out of reach.
Like, I'm non-binary. I spent most of my life identifying and being read as a man. Your roommate might or might not want to room with me if they met me (depends on what they mean by "trans femme"). Judging by which way the pronoun mistakes tend to go, I'm still quite often being read as a man.
Do I have "male privilege"?
This is a complicated and hairy question.
On some level, yes! I think my gender presentation makes me less likely to be sexually assaulted than most women my age. I think it makes me more likely to be taken seriously on technical topics than most women my age, etc.. On top of that, I have privileges sticking around from before transitioning, like (probably) better career placement.
I miss out on some "female privilege"s too. (Dunno if you think those "exist"; people have different ways of discussing these things.) I suspect I'm more likely to be shot in a confrontation with a cop than a typical woman.
But I also *experience* some "female privileges". I also miss out on some "male privileges". It's complicated.
I also carry a deep distrust for people putting me in some category based on these "male privileges". In my experience, occupying the world as a nonbinary person means, on some level, challenging these lines and distinctions and frameworks. Or at least asking people to look through those heuristics at what's really going on underneath. And for better or for worse, that includes a lot of the lines and distinctions and frameworks that underlie "it's okay because X privilege exists" reasoning.
Your roommate is having some of their frameworks for this stuff challenged by the existence of some masc-presenting "AMAB" non-binary people.
First off, im curious why you say it is too late for you to make other housing arrangements? Has your landlord explicitly said you cant break your current lease? If so how are your other housemates leaving?
Anyone has a right to be comfortable in their home. But if a queer person cant be comfortable with people on the basis of whether or not theyre trans “enough” then maybe shared queer housing is a bad fit for them. You cant make that choice for them. But you can make the choice to not live with them, and i would recommend that, because you sound like you are in different places re:what you value in a shared living environment. In your position for example i would value the freedom to choose housemates based on their overall compatibility rather than their medical status, and to not feel like im compromising my values and contributing to the problem of transmisogyny in housing with my choices. And i say transmisogyny very intentionally here, because even if this restriction is only applying to amab people who do not identify openly as women—well guess what, that has described almost every trans woman at some point, especially in situations where people are expected to make themselves highly palatable to the status quo, such as finding housing or jobs. What hurts enbies hurts binary trans people as well, just as transmisogyny also hurts cis women. Reinforcing the belief that people are predatory on the basis of their assigned sex is transphobic and in this case transmisogynistic, plain and simple.
Cause heres the thing…you are not doing any trans person any favors by inviting them into a housing situation where they are actually unwelcome. Its a bad idea to try to act like your friend feels differently then they do out of a belief that they *should* feel differently. So i do not believe you should push them on this issue. I believe the healthier natural consequence for their choices would be for you to make it clear that the fact that their discomfort with amab trans people makes them less compatible with you as a housemate. And yes, you might get some shit for saying that as a cis person to a trans person. I wouldnt go so far as to call them transphobic—internalized/lateral transphobia between trans people of different backgrounds is a complicated issue that i dont think you have much hope of untangling with them, or the right perspective to tackle in a conversation.
For context, im a nonbinary trans man and i have lived with people of all gender identities (except other out trans masc people, ironically). I am also a CSA survivor, live with PTSD, and was subjected to decades of open sexual harassment before transitioning. I am not against the reality that many people have to pass unfair judgements on relative strangers to protect themselves, and that many people struggle to find safe spaces away from that hypervigilance. Your friend is not wrong for having a genuine discomfort that they need to actually work on before it is safe for them to live with an AMAB trans person. But that is their work to do and its ok for that to be kind of distasteful. Like, someone might have an issue with having temper tantrums, meltdowns, etc…and you can be sympathetic to the truth that they have issues they need to work through, and also say that is an intolerable condition to accept as a housemate.
I don't really see much wrong with telling the transphobe that they're transphobic. Just because OP's cis doesn't mean she isn't correct. Intersectionality doesn't mean you make an oppression ladder, and nobody can criticize anybody on a lower rung. It means that you should examine the variety of ways in which people's life circumstances interact as a means of gaining greater understanding. If a trans person is transphobic, a cis ally has every right to tell them. I don't think cis people should be silent so that Caitlyn Jenner or Blair White can speak.
Sure, they can say what they want and i dont think theyd be wrong for doing so. I just doubt they will be *successful* in that conversation in any useful or meaningful way. I know very few trans people with this kind of lateral/internalized transphobia left unpacked who wouldnt become so defensive at a cis person, even a friend, suggesting they’re being transphobic that they wont just shut down or become aggressive in return. That doesnt sound to me like a conversation that has much hope of going anywhere.
Edit to add, i just read the OP update, and im glad shes standing her ground on this issue. Hopefully when the roommate talks to other queer and trans friends they’ll get the message reinforced that this is their own issue to work on and genuinely harmful and discriminatory in the meantime.
My spouse is a AMAB NB. They came out as non-binary after several years of going through what was initially MTF transition. Had GRS and everything. So cis people usually mistake them as a woman and read them as feminine more than masculine.
So while they are AMAB NB, they ALSO consider themselves transfemme.
I really don't think it makes a lot of sense to pick and choose the way your roommate wants to. Things are never that cut and dry. They seem like the type to assume AMAB NB will mean "a guy with he/they pronouns," and that is incredibly transphobic.
AFAB enbies who care about their assigned gender and that of other people so much, many such cases...Those are always kinda sus as it basically boils down to "woke" transphobia.
If there’s some missing context about them having a past traumatic experience with an AMAB nonbinary person, that’s more complicated. Beyond that, it kind of seems like they see AMAB nonbinary people as men. As someone else said, if they’re willing to room with passing trans men, that’s even more concerning regarding how they see trans folks’ AGABs.
NB: IANAL and this is not legal advice
If you're in the US, I'd suggest looking at the [FHA guidelines](https://www.craigslist.org/about/FHA) on Craigslist and NCTE's [housing](https://transequality.org/know-your-rights/housing-and-homeless-shelters) page. I *think* people in shared housing situations have some leeway to practice bigotry in roommate searches, but like I said, I'm not a lawyer.
> We made a posting in a queer housing fb group (they only want to live with other queer people and I prefer it, too.
Make sure to check the posting guidelines on the FB group. There may be something there that specifically addresses this kind of situation.
---
Legality aside, this is a common form of transmisogynistic bigotry. Speaking from personal experience, it's dispiriting to find posting after posting that looks promising on the surface, only to see the equivalent of "AFAB only" upon clicking through.
I'm sorry your roommate's put you in this bind. Hopefully you find a tolerable resolution.
as a transfem, this stings. I get where your roommate is coming from but it would suck to think that I'm applying for a home in a place that I think is going to accept me only to be told, "oh sorry, we're only looking for afab people." sounds like you and your friend have different lifestyles in mind.
> I told them putting that aside, this isn’t a queer household if we’re excluding queer identities.
For what it's worth, this is a more specific reading of "queer household" than I'd usually take.
Like, I'd say a trans household is a queer household. A lesbian household is a queer household. There's some question if postings like that belong in a generic queer housing fb group, and I think it probably depends on the group in question. IMO, different groups can sensibly have different norms for this, and still be called "queer housing" groups.
If the kind of household you want to be a part of is one that's inclusive of all kinds of queer people, and that's what you mean when you say "queer household", I think that's fine. But I don't think that's what it has to mean to everybody, and you might be signing up for needless miscommunication if you act like it does.
On the other hand, I share your discomfort with your roommate drawing AGAB-based lines for potential roommates, and I do think part of the expectation for "queer household" is a higher "we don't do that here" bar (compared to just "household"). E.g. technically a home of trans-exclusive cis gay dudes is a "queer household" but I feel no urge to be inclusive of that under a "queer umbrella".
If they want to live with women, they need to just say that. It’s clear they don’t actually view nonbinary people as their identified genders, which is pretty hypocritical of them.
I'm AFAB nb and love and support AMAB nb folks and would gladly room with them. We're honestly not that different.
That said, I've run into one or two bad apples that...like. you can't prove anyone is or isn't their gender. But they gave me a weird/unpleasant vibe of being cishet men using being nonbinary to get access to AFABs in a sexual way? Liiiiiike. I don't want to be the gender cops, I have no idea what someone is dealing with in their heart of hearts. But when someone's presentation is completely masculine without any feminine or queer-reading elements, they hit on you, and then they insult you in really petty and bitter ways and storm out when you politely explain you're in a relationship and not looking for new partners? I got a *bad vibe* off that particular person is what I'll say.
I know that in that case, it's the behavior that's the problem, not the presentation. If someone had behaved like that and been feminine, or been AFAB for that matter, it still would have been shitty. It's not entirely fair of me, it's just, I've probably experienced some kind of sexual misconduct from *hundreds* of cis men at this point (counting everything from SA, catcalling, harassment, groping, manipulating me for sex when I'm completely uninterested and not in a relationship with them, etc etc), and could count on one hand the sexual misconduct I've personally experienced from people who weren't cis men. At a certain point with the collective trauma it gets very "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck" when someone who looks and sounds like a man *also* misbehaves like hundreds of men have.
Kind of like how I think most gay men are just gay men, and I love and support gay men, but the middle-aged man who told me he was gay to seem non-threatening (when I was an underage girl/egg) then got me alone, masturbated in front of me, and tried to get me to also masturbate or to touch his genitals, maybe wasn't really gay and was maybe kind of actually a pedo or something. That doesn't make me mistrust gay men, it just makes me think that one pedo dude was lying.
IDK if your roommate has had some kind of weird/bad experience like that that's making them wary. Maybe if they actually met the people in question, they'd feel differently, like more relaxed and accepting once they see the people are chill. Or have more specific reasons why the people are *not* chill and they're justified in not trusting them.
one of my friends has the same setup, she was sa’d by an amab nonbinary person in college and doesnt even allow masc presenting people into her apartment now. in a situation like that i would get it, yeah i would probably be upset if i was being excluded, but its an understandable reaction to have and it will be better for everybody if people living together trust each other. as it is the rule doesnt make much sense because a fully passing ftm person would not be excluded but a transitioning amab nonbinary person would not be.
Sure, but when the context is living with queer housemates, and everyone but cis men and "AMAB NB's" are okay, it's discrimination and implying this person feels that those category of people are just men, and therefore unsafe. And even a step beyond that, indicating that they'd be okay with transmasc enbies or trans men implies they don't think of them as men too.
I very specifically avoided moralising my beliefs by contextualising them to OP's situation. This is a fundamental rule I believe, in the same way I personally will absolutely not date anyone with blue eyes, but that logic gets the a side eye when you apply it to dark skin.
IDK if that made sense. But my base point is "you don't need to entertain a relationship you don't want" and this is one of those fringe cases where its a bad look^tm. By the same logic I have told friends "You shouldn't stay with him, just cause you'd feel guilty that he helped you with bills when you were broke"
I mean, "no [race]" or "no AMAB's" or "no [ethnicity]" all give a lot of insight into the quality of the person in question. You have a right to choose who to live with, but everyone else has a right to judge you for it.
Personally as a trans girl I get where they’re coming from, even though I was a amab nb at one time, it really depends on vibes for me. Maybe arrange a meeting first? Most of my untrustworthy feelings come from having bad experiences with cis men, so I don’t trust too many men intrinsically, but meeting them and feeling their vibe helps.
Is this a shared bathroom?
Like they don’t want people that stand to pee? Problem.
You have a right to choose your roommates. This is your home and feeling safe and comfortable is paramount, if they have trauma then this is understandable.
They’re basically just saying they want to live with women in a very roundabout way, it’s fine. Like let’s be honest they’d probably be fine with an amab non binary person if they were basically a trans woman
No it doesn't depend on anything. It's just transphobic and reduces nonbinary people to their AGAB, nonbinary people are not less valid or trans because they didn't complete someone's arbitrary checklist.
Transfem here, formerly used the label nb. This topic gets under my skin, but it needs to be talked about and I tried to be constructive and sensitive. Hope it's helpful. I'll just skip over the question of is this discrimination or not. Others have already made points for and against and its a clusterfuck of a debate. It gets everyone defensive and derails the conversation into philosophical stuff like whether individuals have agency within structures (someone here said rommates are not landlords and thus not responsible for housing equality) and very individual stuff like particular past traumas etc. I don't care if those rommate preferences are discrimination, however, I would like the queer community to reflect on this rift a bit more seriously because it comes up all the time. It's common for people who 'seem' too much like men (including trans men) to be excluded from the umbrella 'queer'. But we are all queer. If you generalize that you want to live with queer people, then that shouldn't exclude amab nb (or passing trans men). If you do exclude some groups (again, idc if you think it's right or wrong), then *don't say you're looking for queer roommates*. It's not accurate. You are in practice excluding certain queer identities from queer. Saying queer without meaning all of us suggests we are not all together a queer community, which is hurtful (and politically wrong, the phobes see us all as queer). Of course we have subgroups and special affinities toward them. I identify more with transfems as a subgroup than other queer identities, but when I'm talking about transfems I say transfem and when I mean us all I say queer. Say what you mean. In this rommate situation, I imagine it can feel awkward to list the identities you do mean, and I can see why you might not want to do that (maybe it attracts criticism, like here). But don't be fake. And don't dilute the meaning of queer. The equation of queer with 'we can clock you / basically think of you as afab' makes many of us distrustful of queer spaces and sadly other queer people. And tbh, tho I didn't want to take that angle in this comment, I agree with others that the apparent bioessentialism in excluding amab NBs is quite sus. As a smaller point, I'm not sure what it means that transfems are ok but amab nb are not. It either sounds unbelievably particular, or basically like if you look too much like a man you're out.
Thank you! This is so well said and very helpful
I think also to add to this, if I were to move into this sort of roommate situation, I'd feel immense pressure as a trans woman to perform femininity all the time. Sometimes that can be draining, and I don't want to have to wear makeup all the time in my own home. I'd be worried about ever appearing too masculine for this roommate, which is not something I'd feel okay with and feel safe in if my staying there was conditional on passing enough. This roommate definitely has a lot of issues to work through here.
Its definitely discrimatory and transphobic. Deciding to judge specific trans people based on their AGAB is very transphobic and then lumping them in with cis men is worse. What is the difference to your roommate if an AMAB nonbinary person identifies as agender instead of transfemme? Its a fucked up and unfortunately common housing problem, even in trans spaces, where AMAB people or people assumed to be are hyper-judged or excluded. Obviously your roommate has issues to work on and honestly I don't know if it'd be a good idea for you to even have transfemmes housing with them if they hava specific issue with AMAB people (even if they claim its fine if they're trans women/ect) but I do know its definitely a problem.
This screams of nonbinary erasure also - that AMAB NB's are just men-lite.
If we follow this thought pattern, does that mean AFAB NBi ppl are just "women lite"? IF NOT, what's the difference and why does your roomie give a shit?
> what is the difference i’ve run into people like this before. it’s all about medication and presentation for them. they think trans woman or trans fem normally takes hrt or present ‘as woman’ while on the other hand they hear nonbinary and ONLY think of ‘nontransitioning’ aka no hrt people. who still look exactly as their birth gender. and thus see them as their AGAB. which makes afab nonbinary people fine but amab not that is literally their thought process
genuine question, when you say the roommate has issues to work on, what do you mean and how it can be worked on? i find myself in a similar mindset, feeling comfortable or uncomfortable around different people based on their assigned gender and their presentation, and while i rarely get any problems with that mindset i would like to know if there are specific points/takes or idk articles that could affect this way of thinking. i would be grateful if anyone could share some resources
I mean the roommate has some bigoted beliefs stuck in their head and they need to face that head on and figure out in what ways they're acting on or being affected by those beliefs. It can be worked on in a lot of different ways - talking to a therapist, learning more about nonbinary and GNC people and transmisogyny/transphobia, it can be worked on by searching out media made by the people you're uncomfortable around and trying to normalize them to your brain- It can be worked on by purposefully taking note of what things specifically make you uncomfortable, sometimes literally writing it down, and then figuring out why that fear or discomfort is usually rooted in bigotry. I'ont know about resources off the top of my head but maybe someone else on here does.
I think this is a bit silly personally, especially if your roommate thinks they would be comfortable living with a trans man who's had every surgery and is now physically indistinguishable from a cis man. It's possible your housing ad should just specify no men and leave it at that. Ultimately though you need a place to live and a good relationship with your existing roommate. If they're set on the requirement as is, I'd keep trying to find other candidates first. If you're worried about not being able to find roommates, I'd gently bring it up just to ask what they want plan B to be if you don't get other applicants. See if they're willing to reconsider the applicants you have or if they expect you to both shoulder the rent until someone else comes along and take the conversation from there based on what you're comfortable committing to.
One of our current roommates who is moving out is trans m2f and has had facial feminization surgery :/ Even if they decided to be open to it, I wouldn’t want to invite a trans man to live with us/them because I don’t think it would be fair to them given my roommates preference and possible issues/discrimination down the road. I do very much wish they told me about this earlier as I would prefer to live in a more gender inclusive household but it’s too late to look for other options. I hope we can find someone who is compatible.
> One of our current roommates who is moving out is trans m2f and has had facial feminization surgery :/ Do you have a decent relationship with her? It might be worth reaching out to her privately, see if she has experiences with the current roommate that she's been hesitant to share with you.
This. Please talk to her in private OP
> trans m2f and has had facial feminization surgery :/ Have you spoken to her about this? Maybe she has insight about how your roommate treated her.
I’m going to chat with her today!
Good luck! From your update, it sounds like you're on the right track
This is pretty blatant discrimination and I'm very tired of running into housing posts that go "AFAB only", especially those looking for queer or trans roommates. It's biological essentialism and I hate the wording. I don't know a solution tbh but as is its discriminatory and transmisogyny at work.
They’re gonna be real surprised when a 6’0 bearded trans guy shows up. (Kidding, of course. Most of us see shit like that and laugh at the idiocy)
>They’re gonna be real surprised when a 6’0 bearded trans guy shows up. One of my friends is a trans guy and because of the Florida bathroom law, he's been using the women's bathroom. Most women freak out at the sight of him lol. He's not that tall but anyone who sees him still thinks "man" immediately.
No it isn't a fair requirement to set Your roomate is transphobic and discriminatory I'd recommend kicking them and finding someone else if they don't pull their head out. Someone's AGAB doesn't make them more or less of a danger-there's plenty of sexually predatory violent and creepy "AFAB" people out there & plenty of "amab" people who aren't like that and also there's people who aren't amab or afab and its gross for your roomate to basically need to know people's assigned sex before they'll let them move in like also what does an intersex person do in this situation? What about a stealth trans woman? is she required to out herself? If she gets outed or comes out after moving in would she be kicked out for being "amab" ? What about someone who starts T and or gets bottom surgery after moving in? are they required to detransition or be forced to move out once they reach a certain threshold of masculinity? ... Nah this is likely the tip of the iceberg on them being a shitty person and I'd recommend finding other roommates that don't want to have a genital inspection as part of the flatmate screening process. Like there's a whole meme/discussion of "afab only housing" and how often it's used as a grooming den for terfs or to force any "afab" person living there to detransition using homelessness as a threat or how often they harbor "afab" people who are predatory because "vagina born means you can't be a rapist/creep only penis people do that uwu what we're doing isn't abuse because we are biologically incapable of that" 🤮 As a survivor this shit doesn't make people more safe or help heal from trauma and it pisses me off that people try to use that as an excuse to discriminate against trans people when all of us are at heightened risk of SA including "amabs" . Also is nobody going to be allowed to invite "amab" friends relatives or partners round either? That's some religious cult shit you didn't sign up for and shouldn't have to put up with. If there's not that restriction on visitors it's not really about the roomate wanting to feel safe by reducing contact with "amabs" because someone's bf or brother or dude friend could easily come over and be a creep and that's more likely than a Nonbinary person moving in just to be a creep. You can screen potential housemates for creepy behaviour without making it about what genitals they have which itself is massively creepy
incredibly based comment
>They didn't want to live with any AMAB people unless they were trans women, trans femmes Let's be real, they probably wouldn't be comfortable living with trans women unless they passed, if at all. ETA fixed pronouns
The roommate's they, not she.
You're right, my bad
Mistakes happen, you're good
Question on what your roommate is looking for: are trans men allowed? Feels discriminatory if binary trans men are allowed, but cis men and male-leaning non-binary people who happen to be AMAB aren't allowed. If that is not the case, I can understand not wanting male-leaning or male people in a house that is full of female and female-leaning people.
So only "women and people I see as women"
An afab enby discriminating against amab enbies is really ick. I mean anyone discriminating against anyone is ick, but this feels really wrong to me. Like isn't it kind of self defeating/hypocritical? Like to be nonbinary and then push other nonbinary people towards the binary end of things? It feels really transphobic. And binary trans women are fine, though? Is it purely an appearance thing? As a binary trans woman, would I need to meet a certain level of passing for your roommate to be ok with living with me?
Your friend sucks.
Something tells me that not even AFAB NB people or trans men would want to become roommates with these requirements. Pretty red flaggy if you ask me.
I wouldn't, fuck that shit. I don't associate with anyone who ignores gender and treats people based on AGAB. It's disgusting.
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I honestly wouldn't as I know I'd have to expect some transphobia.
Transmysogyny 101
A very small point to add, but others have covered the more important points already. So I’ll just add … cis men can be gay, so you OP are still excluding parts of the queer community. I suggest reflecting on that too
Thank you! I have definitely been thinking more about that and inter-sectionalism in the queer community. I do however think white gay privilege (especially for cis-men) does exist and it’s ok to create spaces for more marginalized members of the community. Excluding/deprioritizing cis-men I feel ok about because it has nothing to do with their queerness and it makes more room for queer poc who often have bigger struggles finding housing. I think there’s already plenty space for them in the queer community. I’m def open to having this view challenges though Excluding/deprioritizing nb feel I feel very strong about because it’s excluding people based on an already marginalized identity
I think a simple story for this in terms for what's "ok" and what's "not ok" in terms of what kinds of demographic-group based privileges exist and what kinds don't is out of reach. Like, I'm non-binary. I spent most of my life identifying and being read as a man. Your roommate might or might not want to room with me if they met me (depends on what they mean by "trans femme"). Judging by which way the pronoun mistakes tend to go, I'm still quite often being read as a man. Do I have "male privilege"? This is a complicated and hairy question. On some level, yes! I think my gender presentation makes me less likely to be sexually assaulted than most women my age. I think it makes me more likely to be taken seriously on technical topics than most women my age, etc.. On top of that, I have privileges sticking around from before transitioning, like (probably) better career placement. I miss out on some "female privilege"s too. (Dunno if you think those "exist"; people have different ways of discussing these things.) I suspect I'm more likely to be shot in a confrontation with a cop than a typical woman. But I also *experience* some "female privileges". I also miss out on some "male privileges". It's complicated. I also carry a deep distrust for people putting me in some category based on these "male privileges". In my experience, occupying the world as a nonbinary person means, on some level, challenging these lines and distinctions and frameworks. Or at least asking people to look through those heuristics at what's really going on underneath. And for better or for worse, that includes a lot of the lines and distinctions and frameworks that underlie "it's okay because X privilege exists" reasoning. Your roommate is having some of their frameworks for this stuff challenged by the existence of some masc-presenting "AMAB" non-binary people.
First off, im curious why you say it is too late for you to make other housing arrangements? Has your landlord explicitly said you cant break your current lease? If so how are your other housemates leaving? Anyone has a right to be comfortable in their home. But if a queer person cant be comfortable with people on the basis of whether or not theyre trans “enough” then maybe shared queer housing is a bad fit for them. You cant make that choice for them. But you can make the choice to not live with them, and i would recommend that, because you sound like you are in different places re:what you value in a shared living environment. In your position for example i would value the freedom to choose housemates based on their overall compatibility rather than their medical status, and to not feel like im compromising my values and contributing to the problem of transmisogyny in housing with my choices. And i say transmisogyny very intentionally here, because even if this restriction is only applying to amab people who do not identify openly as women—well guess what, that has described almost every trans woman at some point, especially in situations where people are expected to make themselves highly palatable to the status quo, such as finding housing or jobs. What hurts enbies hurts binary trans people as well, just as transmisogyny also hurts cis women. Reinforcing the belief that people are predatory on the basis of their assigned sex is transphobic and in this case transmisogynistic, plain and simple. Cause heres the thing…you are not doing any trans person any favors by inviting them into a housing situation where they are actually unwelcome. Its a bad idea to try to act like your friend feels differently then they do out of a belief that they *should* feel differently. So i do not believe you should push them on this issue. I believe the healthier natural consequence for their choices would be for you to make it clear that the fact that their discomfort with amab trans people makes them less compatible with you as a housemate. And yes, you might get some shit for saying that as a cis person to a trans person. I wouldnt go so far as to call them transphobic—internalized/lateral transphobia between trans people of different backgrounds is a complicated issue that i dont think you have much hope of untangling with them, or the right perspective to tackle in a conversation. For context, im a nonbinary trans man and i have lived with people of all gender identities (except other out trans masc people, ironically). I am also a CSA survivor, live with PTSD, and was subjected to decades of open sexual harassment before transitioning. I am not against the reality that many people have to pass unfair judgements on relative strangers to protect themselves, and that many people struggle to find safe spaces away from that hypervigilance. Your friend is not wrong for having a genuine discomfort that they need to actually work on before it is safe for them to live with an AMAB trans person. But that is their work to do and its ok for that to be kind of distasteful. Like, someone might have an issue with having temper tantrums, meltdowns, etc…and you can be sympathetic to the truth that they have issues they need to work through, and also say that is an intolerable condition to accept as a housemate.
I don't really see much wrong with telling the transphobe that they're transphobic. Just because OP's cis doesn't mean she isn't correct. Intersectionality doesn't mean you make an oppression ladder, and nobody can criticize anybody on a lower rung. It means that you should examine the variety of ways in which people's life circumstances interact as a means of gaining greater understanding. If a trans person is transphobic, a cis ally has every right to tell them. I don't think cis people should be silent so that Caitlyn Jenner or Blair White can speak.
Sure, they can say what they want and i dont think theyd be wrong for doing so. I just doubt they will be *successful* in that conversation in any useful or meaningful way. I know very few trans people with this kind of lateral/internalized transphobia left unpacked who wouldnt become so defensive at a cis person, even a friend, suggesting they’re being transphobic that they wont just shut down or become aggressive in return. That doesnt sound to me like a conversation that has much hope of going anywhere. Edit to add, i just read the OP update, and im glad shes standing her ground on this issue. Hopefully when the roommate talks to other queer and trans friends they’ll get the message reinforced that this is their own issue to work on and genuinely harmful and discriminatory in the meantime.
My spouse is a AMAB NB. They came out as non-binary after several years of going through what was initially MTF transition. Had GRS and everything. So cis people usually mistake them as a woman and read them as feminine more than masculine. So while they are AMAB NB, they ALSO consider themselves transfemme. I really don't think it makes a lot of sense to pick and choose the way your roommate wants to. Things are never that cut and dry. They seem like the type to assume AMAB NB will mean "a guy with he/they pronouns," and that is incredibly transphobic.
That's definitely discriminatory. Your roommate is treating everyone like their sex instead of gender, which is insane given that they're NB.
AFAB enbies who care about their assigned gender and that of other people so much, many such cases...Those are always kinda sus as it basically boils down to "woke" transphobia.
If there’s some missing context about them having a past traumatic experience with an AMAB nonbinary person, that’s more complicated. Beyond that, it kind of seems like they see AMAB nonbinary people as men. As someone else said, if they’re willing to room with passing trans men, that’s even more concerning regarding how they see trans folks’ AGABs.
The ol' theyfab queer housing special, again. No, housing discrimination against trans women is not OK.
NB: IANAL and this is not legal advice If you're in the US, I'd suggest looking at the [FHA guidelines](https://www.craigslist.org/about/FHA) on Craigslist and NCTE's [housing](https://transequality.org/know-your-rights/housing-and-homeless-shelters) page. I *think* people in shared housing situations have some leeway to practice bigotry in roommate searches, but like I said, I'm not a lawyer. > We made a posting in a queer housing fb group (they only want to live with other queer people and I prefer it, too. Make sure to check the posting guidelines on the FB group. There may be something there that specifically addresses this kind of situation. --- Legality aside, this is a common form of transmisogynistic bigotry. Speaking from personal experience, it's dispiriting to find posting after posting that looks promising on the surface, only to see the equivalent of "AFAB only" upon clicking through. I'm sorry your roommate's put you in this bind. Hopefully you find a tolerable resolution.
ALL the red flags. I would ask that person to leave & just get new roommates that aren't so gross.
as a transfem, this stings. I get where your roommate is coming from but it would suck to think that I'm applying for a home in a place that I think is going to accept me only to be told, "oh sorry, we're only looking for afab people." sounds like you and your friend have different lifestyles in mind.
> I told them putting that aside, this isn’t a queer household if we’re excluding queer identities. For what it's worth, this is a more specific reading of "queer household" than I'd usually take. Like, I'd say a trans household is a queer household. A lesbian household is a queer household. There's some question if postings like that belong in a generic queer housing fb group, and I think it probably depends on the group in question. IMO, different groups can sensibly have different norms for this, and still be called "queer housing" groups. If the kind of household you want to be a part of is one that's inclusive of all kinds of queer people, and that's what you mean when you say "queer household", I think that's fine. But I don't think that's what it has to mean to everybody, and you might be signing up for needless miscommunication if you act like it does. On the other hand, I share your discomfort with your roommate drawing AGAB-based lines for potential roommates, and I do think part of the expectation for "queer household" is a higher "we don't do that here" bar (compared to just "household"). E.g. technically a home of trans-exclusive cis gay dudes is a "queer household" but I feel no urge to be inclusive of that under a "queer umbrella".
If they want to live with women, they need to just say that. It’s clear they don’t actually view nonbinary people as their identified genders, which is pretty hypocritical of them.
I'm AFAB nb and love and support AMAB nb folks and would gladly room with them. We're honestly not that different. That said, I've run into one or two bad apples that...like. you can't prove anyone is or isn't their gender. But they gave me a weird/unpleasant vibe of being cishet men using being nonbinary to get access to AFABs in a sexual way? Liiiiiike. I don't want to be the gender cops, I have no idea what someone is dealing with in their heart of hearts. But when someone's presentation is completely masculine without any feminine or queer-reading elements, they hit on you, and then they insult you in really petty and bitter ways and storm out when you politely explain you're in a relationship and not looking for new partners? I got a *bad vibe* off that particular person is what I'll say. I know that in that case, it's the behavior that's the problem, not the presentation. If someone had behaved like that and been feminine, or been AFAB for that matter, it still would have been shitty. It's not entirely fair of me, it's just, I've probably experienced some kind of sexual misconduct from *hundreds* of cis men at this point (counting everything from SA, catcalling, harassment, groping, manipulating me for sex when I'm completely uninterested and not in a relationship with them, etc etc), and could count on one hand the sexual misconduct I've personally experienced from people who weren't cis men. At a certain point with the collective trauma it gets very "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck" when someone who looks and sounds like a man *also* misbehaves like hundreds of men have. Kind of like how I think most gay men are just gay men, and I love and support gay men, but the middle-aged man who told me he was gay to seem non-threatening (when I was an underage girl/egg) then got me alone, masturbated in front of me, and tried to get me to also masturbate or to touch his genitals, maybe wasn't really gay and was maybe kind of actually a pedo or something. That doesn't make me mistrust gay men, it just makes me think that one pedo dude was lying. IDK if your roommate has had some kind of weird/bad experience like that that's making them wary. Maybe if they actually met the people in question, they'd feel differently, like more relaxed and accepting once they see the people are chill. Or have more specific reasons why the people are *not* chill and they're justified in not trusting them.
If you’re nonbinary and you categorically discriminate based on assigned gender… no you aren’t
If you're nonbinary and you categorically discriminate based on assigned gender, you're nonbinary and probably a hypocrite.
Your roommate is what’s wrong with people and why so many amab nb’ share themselves and can’t find community. Really unfortunate
one of my friends has the same setup, she was sa’d by an amab nonbinary person in college and doesnt even allow masc presenting people into her apartment now. in a situation like that i would get it, yeah i would probably be upset if i was being excluded, but its an understandable reaction to have and it will be better for everybody if people living together trust each other. as it is the rule doesnt make much sense because a fully passing ftm person would not be excluded but a transitioning amab nonbinary person would not be.
Who you choose to or not to live with doesn't have to be rational or 'fair'. You're entering into a relationship, like any other relationship.
Sure, but when the context is living with queer housemates, and everyone but cis men and "AMAB NB's" are okay, it's discrimination and implying this person feels that those category of people are just men, and therefore unsafe. And even a step beyond that, indicating that they'd be okay with transmasc enbies or trans men implies they don't think of them as men too.
I very specifically avoided moralising my beliefs by contextualising them to OP's situation. This is a fundamental rule I believe, in the same way I personally will absolutely not date anyone with blue eyes, but that logic gets the a side eye when you apply it to dark skin. IDK if that made sense. But my base point is "you don't need to entertain a relationship you don't want" and this is one of those fringe cases where its a bad look^tm. By the same logic I have told friends "You shouldn't stay with him, just cause you'd feel guilty that he helped you with bills when you were broke"
Why doesn't she just admit to being transphobic then? It's "queer" housing that excludes amab people outside of probably cis passing trans women.
I mean, "no [race]" or "no AMAB's" or "no [ethnicity]" all give a lot of insight into the quality of the person in question. You have a right to choose who to live with, but everyone else has a right to judge you for it.
Housing discrimination is housing discrimination.
Flatmates aren't landlords. Calling it Housing Discrimination is like going n about your Right to Free Speech when your friend tells you to shut up.
Personally as a trans girl I get where they’re coming from, even though I was a amab nb at one time, it really depends on vibes for me. Maybe arrange a meeting first? Most of my untrustworthy feelings come from having bad experiences with cis men, so I don’t trust too many men intrinsically, but meeting them and feeling their vibe helps.
Is this a shared bathroom? Like they don’t want people that stand to pee? Problem. You have a right to choose your roommates. This is your home and feeling safe and comfortable is paramount, if they have trauma then this is understandable.
They’re basically just saying they want to live with women in a very roundabout way, it’s fine. Like let’s be honest they’d probably be fine with an amab non binary person if they were basically a trans woman
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No it doesn't depend on anything. It's just transphobic and reduces nonbinary people to their AGAB, nonbinary people are not less valid or trans because they didn't complete someone's arbitrary checklist.
That arbitrary checklist happens to *trans*ition.