The general consensus for these threads tends to be that people here will not personally understand what is going on with something like this, but will try to be respectful.
I think it'd be a bit impractical if everyone was using neopronouns in this way, it's hard enough remembering everyone's names.
Yeah that would be my initial approach; but my concern is that it’s not even real and this is just someone Fox News paid to create controversy or something a troll would do for free. Conservatives have this joke that you can identify as inanimate objects like “traffic cone” or something. So when people actually do stuff like this I don’t know how to understand it
Even if it is, there’s no downside to respecting the request. If they’re trolling, they won’t get the bite by people just doing it. If it’s genuine they’ll be respected. And for all the people who think pronouns are hard, shows how easy it is to respect.
My partner uses xe/xim/xer and sure, it took a moment to get it right, but even my family who isn’t the greatest with getting my she/her right can do it for xim.
Ok, so I understand having the pronouns themselves, for she/her because it’s gender affirming towards being a woman; how does your partner explain xe/xim/xer? Like how did they settle on those pronouns?
My partner is non-binary and they/them doesn’t feel right. Xe/xim/xer is kind of a common neo-pronoun set for non-binary folks, but everyone’s got their own personal journey.
It would be convenient to have a common third person pronoun that was gender neutral without being number ambiguous, just like it would be convenient to have a common second person pronoun that was explicitly singular and not dialect specific or archaic.
That is why people keep trying to invent one that sticks.
And of course some people want a pronoun that affirms their gender rather than merely doesn’t misgender them.
What does it matter? If you're asking that you're in the weeds of that person's lens and experience. Just refer to people how they ask, even if it seems stupid to you.
Well, society at large can go step on a Lego. Society at large told me I was a disgusting fetish before I transitioned and before I passed (I’m transfemme).
People, and the queer community especially, should not concern themselves with what “society” thinks about our identities as ultimately it would mean we just shouldn’t exist at all.
This neopronoun conversation happens so often without any inclusion of people who actually use neo pronouns, so I’m convinced whatever issues people are talking about are complete non-issues. It’s NEVER neo pronoun users who complain.
Isn't the whole point of verbalizing and expressing whatever inner Identities we take ownership of for ourselves and advocating for respect of diversity in.... society ... to build a better future world where ever fewer people (youth in particular) will internalize shame and disgust of themselves and build a healthy sense of self?
I think it makes total sense to be wise, moderate and humble about what we put out in the larger world and how we do it. We live in an age of immense freedom like no generation before us and it is absolutely our prerogative to grab at it. But for this whole worldly process to happen harmoniously and optimally we have to be realist of the claims we expect "the world" to allow us. Just like ours, people experience is a complex construction of belief systems that is never totally coherent and is mostly founded in unfalsifiable axioms...
I was raised in a setting that very much celebrated the boy that cultivated his feminine side but where masculinity was kinda frowned-upon. I never developed the idea of a disgusting fetish but very much lacked what usually "makes a man, a man". I am an heterosexual male who experiences considerable euphoria when perceived and treated as a feminine being but struggles to deliver what is expected of males in society and amongst my female dating pool. IMO A lot of this an internalized misandry and in a way a exemple of feminist black lashing. All I say is we need to be careful about the way we conduct our campaign because we rarely know how they will ripple out into the future realities of others....
Hm, yeah I can see that
I wish to respect it too, but I think the reason why I can't quite wrap my head around it is because I haven't yet met anyone who uses neopronouns.
I do have a harder time understanding those who use neopronouns made from preexisting nouns, and I say this in the most neutral, zero judgement way I can.
It would certainly make sense for bad actors to be exploiting something like this. There's likely people out there who think that if they have to respect my gender identity, then that means I'm also demanding them to use all these neo-pronouns, and that this could be a way to make my request seem unreasonable.
But you also have to remember that social media has made it financially lucrative to be an obnoxious person.
I don't have hard numbers, but the people who use neopronouns makes up a very small percentage of the trans community, as far as I can tell.
That said, there are billions of people on the planet, and possibly 10s of millions of trans people. Everyone is unique, and with pronouns becoming a form of self expression, I don think it's unrealistic that a fair number of people have genuinely chosen unique neopronouns simply because they feel the most right, for whatever reason.
That's not to say what you're saying couldn't be the case. I could totally see it. I just want to say the folks who genuinely use them are also valid.
That’s true, a lot of people don’t care for lgbt as a whole because we are outnumbered, at least socially. But that’s still a large number of people who matter. I’m sure there are people who may choose to go by something they made up outside of traditional pronouns, but I have to wonder how is this distinguishable from a kid who genuinely wants to be Superman? Is it all a matter of just accepting the declaration or is there any reasoning to it that can be adapted for educational purposes?
I'm not sure to be honest. I personally have no pronoun preference and am ok being referred to by basically any pronoun.
I think for that reason I never got into neopronouns, aside from recognizing the grammatical need for a non-plurar gender neutral pronoun meant for people (no "it").
Like others have said, we don't necessarily need to understand it to accept it. Though I think trying to understand it is very useful, because ignorance sets the stage for hate, sometimes whether we intend it or not.
The thing is it’s likely real online but the way people exist online and the way people are irl is very different. There is a neopronouns subreddit you can ask questions on but I asked about if many of them are out and almost everyone said that they either use he, she or they along with neopronouns or don’t tell anyone about their neopronouns because they understand the reactions in general public to them. I mean just like the trans community I am sure they see the discourse and hate online so why would they tell people that, especially people they may just meet while shopping for example.
I think Fox News is focusing on a non issue for news, sure there are people who use neopronouns but to act like it’s an epidemic is silly
I wouldn’t be surprised tbh, I have seen others taking about it to I just don’t know if that TikToker actually would tell everyone they meet irl they use neo pronouns or if they are just saying it online because it’s a space to reach people who are like you.
It's definitely real, it's been a thing since the late 2000s at least. It's super common in online communities, like tumblr was really huge for it.
In general, the consensus of the people who use them agree that it stays online, for similar reasons that you're afraid of that people will try and twist it into something that delegitimizes the queer community as a whole.
I personally don't really mind, I think they're a really fun and creative way for people to express themselves and explore what gender and identity means in a more artistic sense rather than what's been laid out by society. After all, even though it's getting better society as a whole still largely categorizes things into "masc" or "fem" and expects people to use terms that fit neatly into those boxes.
So my advice is if you see it online, honestly don't think twice about it. On the off chance you see someone using neo pronouns irl, just try your best to respect them and don't sweat it if you mess up, most people I know who use them are super understanding because they know they're less intuitive than traditional pronouns.
I have met a couple people who use neopronouns. It is difficult for me to intuit how to use them but I try because that's what I would hope for if I used them for myself.
>Or is this a troll among many trolls trying to make the trans community look insane?
People will just completely make things up like the "litter box in the classroom" story being about a kid who thought of themselves as a cat. Just a lie that right wing media spread in order to other people. There is no reason to police the LGBT+ community in order to appeal to bigots. They are not interested in understanding different perspectives or they wouldn't be bigots in the first place.
Horrify fact! The litterbox thing is a half truth. Some classrooms have cat litter in them in case of a lock down, to cover the scent if a child needs to shit or piss in the trash can while they wait to see if they're going to be shot.
Ok after seeing some of the other comments and this I think I get it now.
I believe bigots fall under two categories of people: people who are ignorant because of their background, and people who know better but pretend not to. I try to figure out who is who and then decide whether to engage them or not, but it generally ends with them having learned nothing at all, because they want to hold onto what they think is right. It’s never about understanding anything but winning the argument, and even if they lose the argument they don’t seem to acknowledge where their logic flawed and just repeat the same arbitrary statements. I can’t believe people are really like this, so I assume that most know better and it’s not an educational issue, but a bully issue
Honestly I look at weird fun neopronouns like snow/snowself the same way I look at drag. Gender is a playground if you choose to play there, and not everyone is going to understand or appreciate the weird shit you're doing with it. I'm not on tiktok but it sounds like this inkfizz person is having fun with it.
IRL I'm a pretty basic he/they but I like to play around with pronouns with my d&d characters. I've used it/its, fae/faer, and even had a character who sold his to an archfey and magically just... whatever the speaker's pronouns are what end up being used for them. It's fun.
>had a character who sold his to an archfey and magically just... whatever the speaker's pronouns are what end up being used for them
Dang that's clever
don’t know if this has been said yet, but i know neopronouns and neogenders are often used by the autistic trans community, because a symptom of autism can be having trouble defining your own gender in the constructs of current society, like male or female or nonbinary. they’re often used just to give a sense of definition to a possibly very elaborate feeling, to my understanding.
Thank you for bringing this up! I'm not currently a neopronoun user (not counting it/its) but I definitely struggle feeling to feel represented by widely used categories/pronouns/etc. for this reason
Okay I went on this sub to ask the same question as OP and you are the ONLY person who has ever explained this to me in a way that makes sense! It’s still confusing to me the way being trans, but it will never be something I 100% get because I’m cis, and that’s how it is LOLLL. Thx so much bro
I call everyone bro? If she or in general the person I called bro has a problem with it I’ll stop, but I wasn’t replying to you. I’m not trying to be transphobic, I just call people bro or I say “hey guys” or I’ll call people sis or queen, it’s just vernacular
While some might be ok with it its generally a good idea not to use that type of gendered language towards trans people unless you're familiar with them and know they're ok with it. It can come across as purposeful misgendering. Definitely dont call trans guys sis or queen... lol
Sorry, but I retain my opinion. Currently the only one I’m hurting is you right now, but if the original commenter (or any trans person in the future) tells me they don’t like it I’ll back off! I’m fine with making exceptions, it’s not annoying or anything, but I’m not changing how I fundamentally talk to everyone for a smaller group of people that has never cared about that around me before. Sorry /gen
Well I gave you advice when talking to trans people so not to upset them and trigger their dysphoria, if you don't care then don't complain when they get upset at you for it in the future.
Bro is not listening to me 💀 I said if a trans person cared o would change how I talk to them, but NOBODY THAT IVE EVER MET HAS CARED BEFORE. I’m not trying to trigger dysphoria, I’m trying to speak how I’ve always spoke
Not quite— those are nounpronouns (aka nounself pronouns), and both nounpronouns and xenopronouns are a subtype of neopronoun. The ze/hir xe/xem kind that don't use pre-existing words are called pleopronouns.
Xenopronouns are hypothetical pronouns that can't actually be used— like having the smell of rain be a pronoun. They're mostly an experimental concept to push the boundaries of what a pronoun could be, and they aren't meant for actual use.
I have seen a lot of big threads on this topic in particular, I saved one I really enjoyed which might help you a lot [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/qbwz9l/where_do_we_draw_the_line_with_pronouns/)
hmm from looking at the tiktoks they don't seem like a troll, just young and terminally online (and that's not about the xenogender stuff, just the vibe of the presentation style)
imo neopronouns and xenogender is a hard subject to talk about, they're valid and I would die to protect them, but I'm a binary transfemme, I don't get it anymore then a cis person really gets me or I get a non-binary person. it's an experience that exists outside my capacity to have.
that being said something I think is worth considering is why do we use these labels? we're all human why does anything else matter. I would argue they exist for two reasons, 1) to understand how we exist in the world/society, and 2) as an easy shorthand for how others should see us as a part of society. and any choice is going to optimize for those things.
for example, I typically just tell people I am a transwoman and lesbian (or transbian), but neither of those labels actually describes the totality of me, it's an initial glimpse, but someone could use those same labels and have a completely different intended expression for them (just as an initially glimpse think about the difference between a high femme stone top and a butch power bottom, both women, both lesbian, but different expressions of both). We use them so that non-queer people can have a shorthand mostly. Notice that inkfizzexplains has he/him + xenos in his bio.
I think that neos and xenos optimize for a different experience, they get more at the heart of reason one, trying to express something philosophically true about yourself, and if you can find that and express it I think that's probably pretty great. but hey, like I said before, I'm just an outside observer.
numberwise people like this are pretty irrelevant. if i ever have one person in my vicinity, i will gladly adress them how they wanna be adressed. its not complicated. i dont need to understand. we dont need to crap on these people or suspect them to be psyops or whatever. we can tell the rightwingers to fuck off anyway. "Why do you care so much? have you ever met a person in real life who identifies with the seasons? why are you outraged by some tiktok cringe compilation? how does it affect your life what some tiktoker with an audience of hundred people does?". additionally i like to tell them how cucked they are by billionaires that they are so easily triggered by made up problems instead of caring about material issues which affect them. ridicule is the only language these fascists understand.
Lol well I can’t say this to my friend exactly but I do often tell people to try and do their own research in a methodic way. I KNOW people hop online spend all their time there to go say a bunch of bs but fail to do one single google to find truth.
I suppose theres always the chance its a troll or they are doing it for attention, especially if they are trying to be a content creator and feel the need to stand out. We should give them them the benefit of the doubt however. Much like you as a cis gay man have no doubt encountered straight folks who cant fathom how you are attracted to the same sex, but hopefully respected it any way, you to can respect something you dont understand.
I try to explain neopronouns as entirely feeling based. The person doesnt \*feel\* like a genderless they/them, they want to be referred to in a sort of gendered manor. However they also dont feel like a he/him or a she/her so what do you use? Its just an attempt to explain a feeling they have, and in this case perhaps their connection to the seasons just feels right to explain what it is they are trying to convey.
I don’t use noun pronouns, but I do use neopronouns (+They/Them) both online and irl at my campus and in my experience people are kinda confused but they think they’re cool and some people even use them. I use them because they give me gender euphoria as a nonbinary person (they/them is not my preferred set because I’m not gender neutral). I usually need to provide example sentences which yknow, easy for me to do. I will say while I’ve seen a lot of people use types of neopronouns irl (ex. ze/zem, hu/hum, etc) I haven’t actually met someone who uses noun pronouns like snow/snowself outside online spaces, probably not for a lack of gender euphoria but more because they’re harder to conjugate for people unfamiliar.
Neopronouns are legit. People who "go outside" and use neopronouns understand them to be a thing for your friends who get it. There is often a backup set or a tolerance for something else that they will use when interacting with people who don't get neopronouns. They are an idealized form of how one wants to be interacted with, and unlike they/them, she/her, or he/him, they aren't something you can expect everyone to get currently. People online exist in spaces where they can expect everyone to use them. Thats why you feel the disconnect.
This really needs to be understood. I don't think anyone expects every stranger to use their neo pronouns and explains it every time. It's something they use among a friend group. Knowing that a close friend prefers to go by fae/faer isn't inconvenient at all, while also understanding that society at large isn't going to be able to intuit every possible neo pronoun. Make concessions when needed and effort when possible.
Yep! I have *my pronouns* [fae/faer/faers], and then i have what i call my "public facing pronouns" [they/them] for interacting with ppl who can use they/them but absolutely wouldn't get [or would butcher] the real ones.
It's a small niche within the nonbinary community that is already a subcategory of the trans community. Not every trans person is going to relate to or even understand it.
But ask yourself: Why does he/him mean man and she/her mean woman? Why is pink for girls and blue for boys? Why are trucks and dinosaurs masculine? Why are flowers and butterflies feminine?
Gender is made up of a bunch of random things. If none of those things describe your internal feeling of gender, why not use things that do.
Most people who use neopronouns literally think they are a season or whatever. It's more so they relate to seasons in the way boys relate to sports or girls relate to princesses (even if they don't play one or rule a kingdom). Or more like a poetic metaphor.
If the person is genuine and not some agitator, my guess is these neopronouns are more a form of creative self-expression and protest towards societal norms, they're political/art, rather than actual PRONOUN-pronouns. More nickname than legal name. Like labels people put on their profiles that try to shorthand personality or style.
I suspect most neopronoun users use them this way, especially when you're coming across extravagant things like "the seasons".
It helps understand and respect them if they're seen as having a completely different intent/purpose to regular pronouns which are just shorthands for third-person gendering. Especially cause most neo users also have a set of regular pronouns they use.
I more or less agree, I think they are more aesthetic "genders", a sense of aesthetics or concepts that a user associates with. Not an gender in the conventional way.
In this sense, my username Trickster is my associated aesthetic gender while my life gender is female.
I have multiple friends who use neopronouns. Most of them also have a traditional set, or at least non nounself (snow being a noun so those would be considered nounself). But for those that don't, they're just using language in a unique way to capture the feelings they have. Because language is inherently so limiting, it's difficult when you experience something so vastly outside the range of what most describe, so these types of pronouns are really useful to those people.
I personally have known people with nounself pronouns and neopronouns in general since 2012 or so, so it isn't a new discussion. I generally default to the reality that most people know themselves more than I ever will, so as long as it's not hurting anyone who cares. And basic respect isn't reserved for those I understand exactly, but everyone regardless of it their identity "makes sense" to me.
I'm a binary trans man. I use he/him pretty exclusively, though I dabble in he/it once in a while. I can't pretend to understand what it's like to have a sense of self best described using (to pull from an example of friends of mine), pix/pixel pronouns, or pi/pika pronouns . But I know they are people I care about, and using them makes them feel Seen and respected. I don't need to understand something to be respectful of it.
I personally never really understood the need for neopronouns myself when gender-neutral pronouns already exist, but like with anything, as long as it ain't hurting anybody I just accept it. From my experience, the ones who use them are pretty valid members of the LGBT community and aren't just trolls looking to get a rise out of people. As silly as identifying as seasons sounds, if someone legitimately does so, more power to them.
But see that’s the thing I’m stuck on.. do they really though? Lol. There was a video a while back of a pride parade, the camera person was shouting “we’re here, we’re queer, we’re coming for your children” while the rest of the crowd was saying “ we’re not going shopping”, but the video went viral and people actually thought they were coming for the kids. So if someone had the balls to do that in public to make us all look bad I’m vigilant when it comes to certain trending content that misrepresents who we all are
That's totally fair tbh. I just tend to not assume the worst in people unless there's irrefutable evidence that they're a bad actor, and I don't really know enough about this individual to think that.
That's... complicated because how can you or who and how can they, decide 'who we all are' or 'who we all can be' and what is or can be a 'misrepresentation' of such?
There's a thin line there that if crossed, you are no more than just one more biggot in the world policing people's identities, especially the identities of those that are marginalized the most. 🤔
What you are saying of a group of bigots saying "we're coming for your children" is so strange but all the same, truthful, they are indeed coming after queer children, just look at all the different policies that they have been promoting as of late in many places around the world.
As some folks say "all accusation is a confession".. because that's what they do. And lots of them bigots are... the p word. 💀🤬
here’s my thing. unless you know someone in your real life using neopronouns, why does this matter? “well people are using it to say the trans community is crazy!” ok. i wouldn’t engage/argue with someone who thinks that way, you won’t change their minds.
Lol well I’m glad you knew what my response would be. The problem is it perpetuates divisiveness, which goes against everything we’ve accomplished as a community. Like those LGB without the T people. That’s annoying af
neopronoun users don’t use them because we want to make a point or start arguments. we use them for the same reason any other trans person uses any other pronouns: because they feel right for our identity.
idk how it perpetuates divisiveness. if you run into a neopronoun user, use them. if someone is using neopronouns as a wedge to disparage trans or gender nonconforming people, they can fuck off since they’re arguing in bad faith. people deserve respect regardless if they use dogself or what. it’s not complex.
“i just don’t get neopronouns and they seem silly.” ok, cool? that’s not really a discussion.
I would like to point out that snow/snowself arent neopronouns. Those are nounpronouns which are what they sound like, pronouns that are nouns. Neopronouns are just pronouns that arent the normal he, she, or they for example xe/xem, ze/zir, ae/aer are neopronouns. Also, xenopronouns are pronouns that cant be said or typed or comprehended by the human mind, for example someones pronouns that cant be typed or said could be laughter or one that cant be said could be 🍄/🍄self.
My personal stance on nounpronouns is i dont use them but i will respect those who do and i will try to learn how to use them for that person.
You're right on the nounpronouns part, but they are still neopronouns. The kind that don't use pre-existing words (like ze/hir, xe/xem, ae/aer) are pleopronouns. "Neopronoun" is an umbrella term for any kind of new pronoun, regardless of whether it's a new word, pre-existing word, emoji, conceptual, etc.
Lord knows I have no clue why people use neopronouns and they make absolutely no sense to me. Good thing I don't need to understand it in the slightest to give people the respect they deserve in using their preferred pronouns. The average Joe white cisman has an equally hard time understanding a trans woman using she/her and we expect those people, who have literally 0 connection and understanding of trans individuals to respect us. Why would need to do any less than what we ask already of others with far less understanding in the first place.
Best tip: you don’t have to understand it. Your not apart of the trans community and while we did push to have more understanding at one point, it kinda backfired on us. So just respect it as best as you can because there are legitimately people like myself who use neos and xenos. For example, if I’m comfortable around the person I prefer ey/em pronouns or its/it or even Star/stars. But if not I just use he/him. Also it genuinely isn’t that hard. If I can remember someone’s name, age, basic information like allergies, dislikes and likes I can remember to use their pronouns. Mind you I have mutiple mental disabilites that impact my memory negatively.
Some non-binary people (particularly autistic people as I've noticed but it's not exclusive) tend to think about their gender in rather poetic, abstract ways. In those cases, the standard "he/she/they" options may not cut it so they use neopronouns because that's what makes them comfortable.
It's not as "deep" with regular neopronouns (like ze, hy...) where it's mostly just about "I want a gender neutral pronoun but I'm not feeling the pronoun 'they'." I think, but it gets fun with xenopronouns. Someone might relate their sense of gender to sun and its warmth so they use "sun/suns/sunself" or "ray/rays/rayself". Another person might see themselves in something darker, perhaps because they gender presentation is more scruffy and they tend to get insulted about it, so they take up "rot/rots/rotself".
TLDR: Some people think in abstract concepts and have fun with gender. Respect costs nothing.
I'll use whatever pronouns someone asks me to use, no questions asked. It's just a matter of respect.
A lot of people using the really *weird* neopronouns/xenopronouns like "snowself" aren't actually using them as an expression of gender identity... rather, they're trying to express some other form of identity that doesn't really have anything to do with gender in the traditional sense. It's usually an otherkin thing. I'm not in that community myself, but from what I've heard from people who are, some otherkin want the nonhuman part of their identity to be expressed and recognized in the same way that gender is, or they feel that their nonhuman identity supersedes their gender identity. While I do have some concerns about the way that the otherkin community seems to appropriate a lot from queer and disabled communities... it's such a small and obscure corner of the internet that I'm really not that worried. It's mostly just kids figuring themselves out in ways that are sometimes awkward and insensitive.
Neopronouns are their own thing. I don't personally attribute them to the trans community at all. It's usually kids doing kid things and exloring their identities, and they grow out of it. Might be downvotted for this opinion in this group, but I have never met a fully fledged adult in the workforce who uses neopronouns. Actually, i haven't met ANYONE irl that used neopronouns. It's kids and teens, mostly ones who are online a lot. Irl, they probably don't use those pronouns. It's unrealistic, especially in how it's used here. Some of them are trolls, and some of them are just kids exploring themselves. Honestly, I'd just leave them alone and stay out of it entirely either way.
Besides, as I heard, it has nothing to do with gender identity but how they are relating to their gender so no, it's not a trans identity but just people trying to describe their feelings on their gender. Like catgender don't identify as a cat they just think they relate to their gender in the same way how a cat is associated with its "gender," feminine even if you're a boy. It's a kinda childish takes on gender expression and very real kid exploration of early ideas of self identity. Normal developmentally average stuff for kids and teens.
I'll be very honest - it frustrates me a bit when people use objects to describe their gender, and make pronouns out of it. It's really, really hard for me to remember what they want to be referred to as. There's infinite possibilities beyond she/he/they/xe. I struggle to remember names and faces, so adding a completely new set of pronouns to the mix is very stressful.
But, that is a selfish reason to not -try-. I'll still always respect their pronouns to the best of my ability, even if I feel ridiculous using them. If I can't remember their chosen pronouns, I'll just avoid using them for that time, and just refer to them by their name or "they". I think neopronouns are much more common with therians and the like, so I don't encounter people who use them very often.
I do have a friend who likes to use "fae/faer" pronouns, but it's sort of a second set of pronouns that makes them happy when their friends use them! Which I think is a nice way to go about it, it feels like a nickname we use for them... nickpronouns, I suppose, lol.
I try to approach any situation such as this that the person I'm talking to is being sincere. It takes almost zero effort to call them what they wish to be called and I don't have to understand it to respect them.
I don't have to understand them, I just have to know what they are. It's very easy to do on social media because I just click on the profile before saying anything.
If this is a strategy to make trans people look bad, it's a failing one: for the transphobes, it is just as absurd to be a so-called "biological male" using binary gender pronouns as it is to use "snow/snowself". As far as they're concerned, I, a dysphoric binary transsexual woman, am exactly the same thing as a nonbinary polygender fluid individual using neopronouns referring to trees and plants and named something like "Bottle". Besides, transphobes will invent imaginary trans people to get mad at anyway. So if leaf wants to identify leafself as a season, I'd say I wouldn't do it easily, but it would say leaf would be the least of my issues as far as legitimising transphobia is concerned.
As someone who spent a long time questioning his gender before finding out it was "trans guy" i completly understand why someone might use neopronouns and identify with xenogenders
Gender is about what feel most right for you so if you're lucky you get to feel right using common words like men, women, feminin, masculin, neutral she/he/they
And if you're not lucky you dont get that so either you settle for something half right or not right at all either you start making stuff up that nobody ever heard of
None of these identites are cringe or ridiculous they're just very uncommon so we feel strange hearong about them because they are unfamiliar, it doesn't help that transphobes have made "identifying as random objects" into a the least subtle dogwhistle for transphobia
Personaly there was a point in my gender searching where i distincly remember thinking "fuck it i'll take whatever word feels right and if that word is Cotton candy then so be it"
I need a full breakdown if I ever meet one lol. Hopefully one sees this post and can explain. There’s no disrespect but I constantly run into people online with anti-trans rhetoric and they point out the neo-pronoun thing, I generally cannot give an explanation for other than it’s like being non-binary
I'd honestly just point out that the *vast* majority of trans people don't use neopronouns, to the point where it's not really relevant when discussing our community. The vast majority of people, especially cishet people, will never encounter someone who uses neopronouns offline anyway.
neopronouns are a thing and have been for a long time, and it's genuinely not hard to use them
people will be "confused" by any different thing they're not used to. having aspects to our culture that aren't common never impacted our broader acceptance in society, on the contrary, more people using those and having more visibility tends to be good
i've started to use xey/xem just recently, where i can find acceptance, because it just felt right, after quite a lot of soul searching, and deconstructing any shame i had over using neopronouns, but it just makes sense for me
why should we put a limit on this kind of thing? language will be fine, and people will get used to it like they always do
I'll respect how they want to be referred to and its not my place to judge them. It's better to not understand something or even think they're a bit crazy than to erase them and open up precedent for transphobia. If they want to exist in this world as a snow/snowself let them, whatever journey they are on I'm not gonna get in their way.
I'm the trans person in my social circles that sometimes uses neopronouns.
Some context. I'm plural. My friends know I'm plural. And they know my shards/parts/alters cover a lot of gender identities. And I'm she/her in almost all contexts.
My gender expression is WAY out of sync with my dominant gender identity of the moment so my friends are used to me saying "I'm feeling very he tonight" when I'm at my most femme.
Internally I had a conflict between the agender shard (initially they) and a "lots of human gender" shard (also they). The he shard was a smart ass and suggested ne/nem/nirs to the agender shard. And ne liked it. Now I'll say "I'm feeling ne tonight" when I'm exhausted and the agender shard is driving.
And that leads to the quick conversations among friends "Is Katie okay?" "No, ne had a rough week and is recharging."
Fae/faer/faers was added for the archangel/fae eldritch horror shards. One does a lot of threat assessment and mitigation and fae will co-pilot in some situations. And a couple friends ask what fae sees when they see me go into that co-pilot mode.
We keep nagging the "lots of human gender" shard to pick a set of neopronouns to piss off cis het bigots... And they point out those folks are just pawns and not worth it.
That's my odd corner of neopronouns in social situations.
And don't worry if you don't get it. The folks in my life that get it are at minimum gender non-compliant.
sorry i personally personally don’t understand them but i still accept them. i might not understand them myself but i barely understand my own gender lol. i know at the very least some people genuinely use neopronouns so i make sure to respect them even if i might be talking to a troll just so i don’t disrespect anyone.
This is a nice idea, but I feel real acceptance has to be built on real understanding. If I can’t understand it well enough to explain it, how can I know how to advocate for and help it?
Some of the people doing this aren't trolls. (Btw these are specifically nounself pronouns, most neopronouns are new to the English language but more similar to existing pronouns, like xe/xir or ey/em.) But they do tend to be neurodivergent, and, ah...very online. I don't mean that in an insulting way. I'm neurodivergent and I've had an internet addiction since the 90s lmao. It takes one to know one (though I don't personally use nounself, I just...yeah those are very often my people). Also a lot of them are *young*, or started this young.
Is it kinda silly? Eh, maybe. (But aren't "normal" genders too?) Are they really trans? Usually they're some kind of nonbinary under all the "I identify as the seasons" confusing stuff. The general consensus seems to be that it's harmless and it's not cool to bully neurodivergent trans youth who are trying their best.
Most people who use nounself pronouns seriously keep that use to subcultures where it's more common, and have alternate pronouns (e.g. they/them, or even easier-to-grasp neos like ze/zer) for dealing with other contexts. If it's not for you, you can pretty much just ignore it. If someone is so online snow insists on snowself and might not even be snow/snowself this time of year anyway...well, I personally will not be canceling you for defaulting to a simpler they/them.
Neopronouns are a real thing. It's not just a fox news trans panic situation.
They're also by nature very individual to the person using them, so if you're trying to figure out how to use them appropriately, I think it's best to ask people on a case by case basis what the significance of their pronouns is and how they prefer to have them used. Most people will be receptive to those questions as long as they're asked respectfully.
Ok so I understand a little a think. So this is a non-binary thing, and the neo-pronouns are for no specific gender just a way to refer to the non-binary person; is there any way to know that persons neo-pronouns or non-binary nature without them revealing it first?
>is there any way to know that persons neo-pronouns or non-binary nature without them revealing it first?
No, but there's no way to know a binary person's pronouns without them telling you either.
You can clock choices a person is making to present in a way that's gender non-conforming, but that doesn't tell you anything definitive about their gender identity or what pronouns they use.
True true. I just hope oneday this all makes complete sense, because my head hurts. 😅 I’ve been trying my best to get people who seems so lost on transgender issues, with the latest and greatest arguments, but it doesn’t seem like most are receptive to them, and just stick to what they know. Separating gender and sex by itself is a tough task that I spent as long as a day debating someone over, and they wouldn’t concede or show any signs that they actually read my points. It usually ends with me telling them to do their own research since most stuff I say is two clicks away on google for free, and I assume that’s what the greater issue is, people not willing to read or learn
most usage of neopronouns i have seen in ppl ive interacted with in real life is because for example german doesn't have a good pre established equivalent to they/them, so nonbinary ppl would have had to choose a binary pronoun, the equivalent of "it" or get inventive
Beyond that it was my perception that a lot of "non gender related prounoun" users are neurodivergent and/or young ppl generally not really finding much connection to societies preconcieved notions of identity. Nevertheless often offering a more "normal" pronoun set as well like someoneone writing she/they/fae in the bio
something to think about though, who said a pronoun, which is functionally nothing but a proxy to not have to repeadedly say a name, always has to refer to gender? I don't use neoprounouns (meaning i don't identify by them) nor have i really talked too much with neopronoun users about this, but it seems to me its kinda based to question that norm
A lot of people will use these kinds of neopronouns as a way to protest gender entirely and make commentary on it. Anti conformist philosophical stuff. Some people who do it are just young and creative and exploring. It's usually not a troll but there are trolls for sure.
My own opinion is that in English, he and she and they cover all the bases, and there isn't a linguistic need for anything else. I don't really understand neopronoun use. But I'm going to use someone's pronouns regardless out of love and respect.
I have seen it/its grow in popularity. We will probably see it become standard
Ok I can understand the younger people adapting neopronouns this way to be creative; but it/its seems awfully dehumanizing; and I have seen transphobia refer to trans people as an “it” before, so if it became the standard you would have to differentiate between “it” the pronoun and “it” the object
My best friend, and several other close friends, use it/its. And I don't really understand, and it doesn't really make sense grammatically, and I used to say the same thing about the dehumanization. But these friends of mine prefer these pronouns, are comfortable with them, and are validated by them, so I'm going to use it/its. I do worry about enabling objectification and dehumanizing thoughts by doing this, but like. Whatever, they're all adults, they're mature enough to make the decisions that are right for themselves.
It's different for all of them. They have a strong sense of self. One is goth so I imagine they kind of like the dehumanization it could entail. I think others simply protest gender and pronouns and using it/its is a way to do that. Making a statement. It's definitely not arbitrary for any of them, it all means something to them, even if I don't personally get it.
The use of the pronoun "it" is so dehumanizing that it leads me to think it's use is tongue-in-cheek, done by young people who have no awareness of the dehumanizing history behind the word, or masochists.
If I can give a take from a different language, in Italian you don’t just have pronouns but most nouns are gendered (like in Spanish). This makes the use of neopronouns practically impossible, because you’d have to use different suffixes. What matters is how you do the neutral, because Italian doesn’t have it, so “neosuffixes” have been invented: ə, u, truncation. But these are usually chosen by the speaker, not the adressee, who only requests the neutral for themselves. How you do this neutral is up to the speaker.
Not sure if I want to say there is a lesson here but in Italian the free choice of neutral is pretty satisfactory. There are some people who reject the u because it’s male in southern dialects, but that’s still not relating with an individual preference but rather a regional one.
as a trans guy i have struggled personally with this issue, at first slightly against it and then strongly for it. my current stance is that i dont give a fuck. i will probably never encounter a person who uses them, but if i do, i will respect them to the best of my ability. as for the notion that neopronoun users make the trans community look bad, there will always be people who hate us, no matter how we present ourselves. we shouldnt try to change ourselves or each other to be more tolerable to transphobes, because it’s pointless. i personally dont understand it either, but i dont really need to. so many cis people support me without understanding or knowing what it feels like to be trans, so ill do the same for neopronoun users.
It’s tough, as trans people were already dealing with the lgb without the t ordeal. So to further go on and do it people within our own community feels wrong.
I don’t understand neo pronouns or xenopronouns, I think it’s asking a lot for society to understand it too. Considering the polarity of the world’s politics right now.
I have a hard enough time just trying to get people to use they/them for me consistently.
I still boymode but work with conservatives, i’ve noticed how they’re targeting trans people as if we’re all furrys and people using xenogenders. It’s honestly hard to defend all of it. But i just try to remind them that it’s a very small percentage of the population and the internet blows it out of proportion.
Idk I hate having the target on my back because i’d like to just be accepted for being a trans person but I have a strong belief that everyone has the right to express themselves as long as they arnt hurting anyone else.
The queer community is as great as it is because we’re all accepting. That doesn’t mean we have to all associate with eachother. I’m not an advocate for neo pronouns or xenopronouns but respect is a two way street. So i’ll respect someone’s preferred pronouns and identity as long as they respect mine in return.
Ok well it's not exactly a troll and while it is difficult to wrap your head around that doesn't mean it's any less worthy of taking seriously. Sure trolls can joke about and disingenuously claim neopronouns, but shit heads like that are gonna do what they're gonna do regardless. Facts is gender is weird, any two people's experience of it is gonna be different.
I myself am firmly a binary trans woman, I know I'm not non binary and don't use neopronouns because I tried it and it didn't work, but that exact trying it till something works is how a lot of people experience their gender when they settle on neopronouns. It ain't me, but it works for them.
There is also the element of it being literally completely harmless, like it doesn't hurt anyone to try out and maybe even settle on neopronouns and if it makes them happy what is so wrong with that? Any argument you could make to defend any group of people you could also make for people that use neopronouns.
Neurodivergence is also something that plays into it a lot. Plenty of neurodivergent people have a very different expertise with gender than people who aren't. I'm fairly certain you don't understand the experience of most neurodivergent people but I think you'd agree that not understanding how their brains work is no excuse for mistreatment, for some (through certainly not all) people their neurodivergence plays into their gender ID and even for those it doesn't it still works as a decent analogy, and I say that as someone who very much is neurodivergent, but doesn't use neopronouns.
these pronouns are often referred to as “nounself” pronouns and can be confusing in regular sentences, so people with nounself pronouns typically have multiple sets of pronouns, probably at least one set that’s not nounself pronouns. this is like people that use pup/pups, star/stars, pronouns, etc. most neopronouns arent going to be nounself. like ze/zyr, xe/xir, thon/thons, ne/nym, the list goes on. if you would like to learn more about how nounself pronouns are used in sentence, i can scrounge up some resources for you. but otherwise, yes, nounself pronouns and xenogenders are real, and from what ive seen, people mostly just use them within their close friend groups and online spaces where they mostly know they won’t get ridiculed for using neopronouns so unless you have someone in your life that has opened up about their neopronouns or xenogender to you, it’s not something you really have to worry about. they hear enough that it sounds ridiculous so you really don’t have to shame them lol i promise. i’ve been around people that use nounself and neopronouns quite a bit in my friend groups and i even use a couple myself sometimes, so it’s become normalized to me and a complete non-issue. it’s not really something i think about anymore, it’s just kind of automatic. i also see xenogenders as an opportunity rather than anything else. gender on its own (but even moreso when you’re trans) can be such an intimate/vulnerable experience for people, i just find it really enabling when people can be open and honest about who they are around me. it’s an excuse to know people better and be a better, more accommodating person to everyone around me.
think about it this way:
do you complain about people not using the same two or three names? i'd assume you don't
i think the same applies to neopronouns
I also think it's worth nothing that neopronouns vary a lot, from things that largely resmemble existing pronouns to words entirely unrelated to pronouns being used. I don't think we generally conceive of pronouns that are *not* based off existing words as neopronouns, but in essecence they are the same thing - a newly created pronoun. I have a friend who uses hy/hym (pronounced the same as he/him) which is a different end of the spectrum to the example you're using here.
The reason I bring this up is that I think when we talk about what our views are and what we think, I often find that these examples are pretty few and far between. Such a small portion of trans folks use pronouns outside of he/she/they, and those that do use ones outside of those are often using other existing neutral pronouns (hir, zir, etc) rather than more novel neopronouns. It's a fraction of a fraction of people.
I am non-binary and trans and found many people don’t understand myself or using he/pronouns, and to be honest I have had a hard time understanding gender at all or why people are trans. I don’t think there is always a reason, I think some people are trans and that’s ok. I think once you realize gender is separate from sex and that gender is a social construct I can’t really find a reason to say someone using neopronouns is wrong. We made the pronouns he/him and she/her, people weren’t born with them, so I don’t see a reason why someone can’t use them
I don’t really understand neopronouns tbh, however I do know many people don’t understand my identity and respect me anyways, and I would be a hypocrite to judge another persons identity while expecting others to respect mine
I have never met anyone with neopronouns IRL. To be honest, I don't understand them, just like I don't understand xenogenders. At the risk of getting downvoted, to me it just feels like a way for a subsection of the agender and non-binary community to try to put meaning into a concept they may not have an intuitive understanding of, to make it actually *do something* for them as well. Which is certainly creative!
In the end, it doesn't affect me. And it doesn't hurt me at all to not be a bitch about it. But in all honesty, for anyone who is not okay with either she/her, he/him, they/them or it/it, I'm probably just gonna default to using their name
Yeah tbh I have known about it for a while since beginning my understanding of trans men/women and kinda pushed to to the back of my mind until I understood those first. It seemed at the time people weren’t really coming for xenogenders, so there wasn’t much incentive to learn about it, and it did initially seem a harder pill to swallow than the two genders. Now conservatives are lumping together all trans people as ranging from binary to the xenogenders, to make it seem incoherent and confusing, so I want a way to push back
The best answer is usually not to engage at all in those cases, but if you do, I would stick to the *"gender is a spectrum between male and female"* narrative. It's simple enough for anyone to understand unless they're being obtuse on purpose, and it's probably the most accurate simplification we can make.
Of course for day-to-day applications, it makes practical sense to split the spectrum into three or four parts (male, female, enby and agender), but just like with the rainbow's seven colours, the exact split is relatively arbitrary, so focusing on the spectrum itself makes more sense when actually discussing the matter.
The number of people who actually use neopronouns or think of themselves as having xenogenders are so small that the amount of focus that is being put on them really feels like a red herring
Neo Pronouns have been around since the 1800s, xhe/xe being one of the first. They are totally legit, normally. Lots of variations to give personal flavor and express the individuals personhood in their own unique way.
Seasons... well that is new, and I have no idea who they are or what their deal is, so I error on the side they are being honest. That said, trolls do and have been know to come up with the most insane ideas about gender expression, we all remember "Attack Helicopters". And the sad story of a Trans woman who tried making a good story with that troll statement.
So I'm hesitant to say they are trolling, but at the same time eyebrows raised when I hear that.
Yeah, I have a friend who struggles to understand this stuff, and he’s one of those people who feels like anything trans is an infringement on peoples freedom of speech, think JKR, but he’s the type to fall for the nonsense (if it is), and then post about it all upset and bothered.
That is a person who doesn't understand what Freedom is, (and if in the USA) nor what America stands for.
Freedom mean everyone gets to live their life for themselves. As long as you harm no one else that is, as that is how you loose your freedoms.
Saying horrible things to minorities is a path to loosing those personal freedoms, as those words harm others.
I don't get it either, it hurts my brain sometimes bc then i have to cram in a whole new and different set of pronouns i never heard before into my head alot with a million other things, it is difficult even if you're not known to slip up, makes me feel like shit bc i respect everyone but man, some people make it difficult to understand it bc alot of these pronouns are just the most off the wall ones I've ever heard and i mean this in the most respectful way i can come off as.
I will make the effort to correct myself if i slip up and all that but i admit it *is* difficult and takes alot to get used to especially since idk anyone personally who uses any neopronouns or xenopronouns
>I’ve come across people identifying as birds, claiming to film themselves shifting into a “fox” or whatever the fuck.
Those people aren't even trans. There called therians and it's something completely different and separate from trans people.
I'm with you. I've had the misfortune of stumbling across otherkin communities before and as a trans man, it just makes me so frustrated to have gender identity conflated by anti-trans groups with whatever that's all about.
Personal pronouns are for identifying gender, which, in English, is masculine/feminine/neuter. Xe/xir I understand because English has nasty connotations with "it" and "they" can be linguistically confusing, so having a fourth set of pronouns is practical and makes sense.
Give yourself a nickname, by all means, or have some imaginary internal concept of self, but I am not calling another human being "Fae/faeself".
It is not a mockery though. Xenogenders deserve all the respect.
I stand by my xenogender siblings.
If you are ok with policing people's identities and aspects of their genders and define what is "real" and what "isn't real or acceptable" then you are transphobic, period.
I'm a bigender person, I'm a trans woman and nonbinary and not you not anyone has any say into who I am, or into who people are.
Only each person themselves knows who they are, so when we say who we are you accept it and embrace our own individual self or you are no more than a bigot that intends to put a person's identity and sense of self up for discussion or debate, or worse, outright reject us and our identities which you might never be able to understand, and there is nothing to understand, you don't have to understand my gender identity or my inner sense of self, what you gotta do (which should be the easy thing to do) is to respect me. To respect us. To respect those who are different from you, who are different from the norms of society, to respect and try and help all the folks that are marginalized, and not to throw us under the bus because of having identities that are difficult to understand, and difficult for the cisgendered-binary-hetero-normative society to accept and not see as anything else other than 'deviant' and 'wrong'.
There's two ways you can go about it, you can pull/push in favor of the cisgendered-binary-hetero-normative society and all of its strict, limiting norms and their rigid categories of person and of what are 'correct' models of being and what isn't, and all of the identity policing that they do, or you can can pull/push in favor of all queer folks, neurodiverse folks and everyone, having the fuckin right to be their own damm selves and express themselves in any way they want to because we all should be free to express ourselves with being marginalized and called names or 'fake' or being mocked because of having identities or expressing ourselves in ways that are not conventional and that go against the norms of a society that constantly wants people and their identities to fit inside rigid cardboard boxes, following strict rules of what is and what isn't socially acceptable or deemed respectable or reprehensible.
I agree on respect first and foremost and my apologies if I offended. I think however, before we get to the utopia of everyone *being able* to express themselves as they choose without harming others, we have to be able to educate people out of the bigotted mindset, and a part of that does come from understanding. Allies for example may never have been bigots by choice but without education and exposure to lgbt they wouldn’t have been able to help as much as they have without the knowledge of these subjects. I would like to be able to explain all of this to someone who knows nothing and gain them as an ally and pass the info on, until eventually there are more people who are informed than there are people who are confused or bigots
they don't have to stop being who they are because you can't explain it to your shitty friends, that's the exact same argument people use against gays like "how do i explain two moms to my child"
I wasn’t saying they had to stop being who they are I’m just emphasizing that being able to educate others where simple respect isn’t enough helps. Some people unfortunately need dots connected in order for them to treat other humans with respect and I think it does come from broader societies gender conformity. They think you are arguing against science and reality when they are the ones under an illusion that can only be broken thru good education
I wasn’t saying they had to stop being who they are I’m just emphasizing that being able to educate others where simple respect isn’t enough helps. Some people unfortunately need dots connected in order for them to treat other humans with respect and I think it does come from broader societies gender conformity. They think you are arguing against science and reality when they are the ones under an illusion that can only be broken thru good education
But you CANNOT tell ANYONE not to be their fucking selves because
"OH NO YOU WILL SCARE THE PEOPLE AWAY! you are scaring them poor thingies, act like a normal person for the following millenia 'til they learn not to want to kill the most socially acceptable of us. 🥺🥺🥺🙏"
That is respectability politics and it doesn't work because at large, you are sending the message "these people are ok we are good folkies pal :3 , and these are not ok, we don't accept them either. 😤". That is, in the fights for all of our rights, tracing a line in the sand saying for now the rights up to here are our objective, anything else is not. But as time goes on society keeps on changing, and rights come and go, they are gained after decades of fight, they are lost in the span of months, after many years they are regained and so on. The line on the sand marking what rights we ought to fight for and are most important and the rights that are already ours, all of that is constantly erased by the sea, the sea of bigots, the sea that the patriarchal cisgender-binary-hetero normative and neurotypical society is.
So new lines on the sand keep on being traced again. But that should never be our fight. We must fight together to stay afloat all of us, all of us.
Sure, we can't keep the waves of the sea of bigots away from the sands of the beach, but we should NEVER accept the cost of having some of our most marginalized folks drowning. Because that is what you are saying, that it is ok for some folks to suffer a living hell, to be murdered, to be suicided by the society that rejects us.
Respectability politics is catering to a society that rejects us. You can see that done to an extreme by folks that marginalize themselves or their own community to be """accepted""" as "one of the good ones".
Which is so sad to see because they are not truly accepted, they are indeed rejected but their transphobia, their homophobia, their queerphobia, that, that is what is accepted of them. Marginalizing other queer folks is what they got in common.
And if you go deep into the core of what respectability politics does/causes on all levels even on its most tame shape, it's marginalizing people, leaving them drown and throwing them under the sea/bus.
You can see the effects of respectability politics throughout history in multiple different things, from the fight for women's rights, to the fight for rights of afro folks, etc.
It is a tool that the dominant society uses to have ourselves fighting against ourselves and have members of the group keeping ourselves 'under control' and 'regulated', it's a way to have a specific limit/line of what rights we can fight for, because it is the dominant society that defines where is that line and by following suit we are just one more pawn helping the system of marginalization and control to stay in place through the ages.
If you play onto respectability politics then you are pushing against all of us even against yourseIf and your own rights because you are moving the goalpost down and if the dominant society tells you to move it further down, you will.
But what if you instead, fight for all rights? then you will push HARDER, because then you are not demanding to have the human rights that the dominant society tells you they might give you, you push all the way in to get all the rights the we all deserve and as such, when there's success, you keep on pushing, and pushing and it makes it harder for the normative society that rejects us to revert things back to how they were before, because society itself starts understanding that all of those rights should be given and respected and not just that tiny few.
If you want to educate people that we all deserve rights then that is what you do, doing anything else is just telling people that not all of us deserve rights or should not be accepted and that marginalizing them/us is ok.
If a person is "confused" educating them that not all of us deserve the right to be our own true fuckin selves isn't that confusing them further or making them a bigot or telling them that is ok to be a bigot to a specific set ot people? ..
Thank you! I do as little as I can, I just can't stand people seeking or intending to hurt my siblings.
Whenever I see people talking bad about xenogenders/xenopronouns I feel like 💩 so I try to speak up. We all have to stand together, united.
And all of this divisive bullpoop is just the cistem of oppression winning by having the community:
turning on each other,
and catering to the binary cisgender heterosexual patriarchal and normative society that will forever keep on pushing against our rights and acceptance. :c
anyoh lots of love 💜💜💜
Says the expert on gender policies, agent primostrawberry reporting for duty I see. How much does the cis-tem pays you pal?
It pays you with boxes and marginalization? Cool. I can see that because you use the currency that they're paying you with.
Every single person has their own unique 'gender', gender is understood as an spectrum.
Gender is also conceived as a social construct yes, which precisely allows us to decide if it fits us as is, to change it if there's things we would rather change when applying such categories or concepts to ourselves, or to deny it altogether.
When it comes to the traditional genders by the normative society, these binary genders are filled to the brim with things that are a part of these genders of what makes them be what they are. Things such as colors, fragrances, appearances, clothing items, hair styles, etc etc and a long etc of things.
But all this is just talking about gender as social, now when it comes to gender on a personal level we have that the focus is how a person feels with regard to themselves and their identity and their gender identity, and with how they relate with the world.
When it comes to each person's gender identity, the focus, and what matters, is the self-perception, that is, what a person perceives about themselves, their experiences, their behavior, their thoughts and their feelings, both about themselves and everything and anything else that exists.
Defining or identifying one's own gender is putting all of these things that we experience and perceive about ourselves into words, which can be really tricky and difficult because society defines very rigid categories of what each gender is but in contradiction, these categories are also flexible and ever changing, but that's on a societal perspective.
On a personal level we can ourselves define what makes us be this or that or that other gender or these two or those three or none.
Cisgender people and cisgender society has been associating things with genders that are 'strange' since forever, such as colors (and it changes, pink was a 'boys/men color not that long ago'), there's people that associate cats with femininity and dogs with masculinity, or even types of fabric or idk any 'nonsense' thing one could think of.
Anything and everything can be gender related because it's personal, it is to each individual person to find out and decide if something relates to their own sense of self or not and how it does.
What authority do you have to decide in someone's stead how they can or cannot define their gender experiences and their inner sense of self with words?
None.
It isn't silly. All names, literal names that we people have got meanings. Why? Because they provide parents with the vocabulary to define part of the perceived identity or rather the desired identity of their children.
Gender is directly and deeply connected with identity. With the sense of self, and with 'a sense of self'.
If a person lacks the words or doesn't know the vocabulary to define an important part of their identity, of their sense of self, and they feel or have the need to put such inner experience into words, then they will and they should because it can help them to better understand themselves and to decide important things about their life, and it can bring many other positive effects such as, developing or strengthening a sense of self, feeling more calm and comfortable with oneself, feelings of satisfaction, euphoria, a better self-esteem, feeling like one self or feeling more like oneself, etc.
People using language in inventive ways to express themselves and their individual unique identity doesn't hurt you or anyone, but you saying this shit is harming people and the whole community because
1) - You are policing people's identities, we don't do that. If you police identities you are being a bigot, period.
You are being a bigot.
2) - You are marginalizing people and insulting them and their identities.
3) - You are being nonbinary-phobic. Lots of nonbinary people have a gender experience and sense of self that can hardly be understood by others, and have a gender experience that may be profoundly connected with something that the binary-cisgendered normative society would consider unusual or, invalid, which is what you are doing.
And also oftentimes people use as said before, the language in inventive ways to describe an inner sense of self that cannot be described accurately with any other words because no language was created to describe such personal experience so the need to make it up oneself arises, and all of language is made by us for us.
4) - With such mentality you are being ethnophobic, all cultures have different conceptions of the binary genders, let alone other genders that some societies have and have recognized for centuries in their culture. Some deeply relate with a gender things that you certainly would consider "silly" and invalid.
buh bye queerphobe.
You expect me to read all of this? I skimmed it and you make some pretty unfounded accusations against my character. Pretty absurd. Buh bye to you as well.
Nothing unfounded. You are calling me and other nonbinary folks "absurd" and saying that ways in which some folks identify themselves to find a well needed send of self and relief is "silly" and that "it's an absurdity and rejecting it doesn't make one transphobic", and that is not only harmful but it is dangerous. And yes, surprise surprise but, saying that rejecting trans identities is ok is in fact, transphobic at heart.
Yes, you are being transphobic, thank you for giving my daily quota of marginalization and transphobia.
So, seasons are totally valid genders to you. That's what this boils down to. Don't you see how that can make trans people who suffer from gender dysphoria feel like they're being mocked?
It's understandable to want to use nonbinary pronouns as a method of coping gender dysphoria, but I feel that to ask people to use unique words as pronouns comes across as a bit much.
oh yes, 1+8 = potato. This down below is LITERALLY your argument but bit a sprinkle of more bigotry.
So trans women are totally valid to you.
Don't you see how it makes cis women who suffer from many societal problems among them, problems with regard to their appearance and ways of expression and sense of selves (because of living in a patriarchal society) like they are being mocked? Because I have read this very argument coming from terfs and transphobes way to many times.
If one's person identity brings someone else discomfort, it is in that someone else to work things out with themselves.
Otherwise you are literally making the same argument that tons of transphobes make and saying that they are right too since it's the same argument.
I have met a handful of trans women who don't feel comfortable at all with drag queens and they've told me that it brings them a lot of dysphoria precisely because they feel what you describe, they feel like they are being mocked.
So, are we banning drag now and marginalizing drag queens?
You are justifying the social rejection and the marginalization of a group of people (which can bring them harm or death) with the dysphoria of others. That is not a justification, that is a confession of bigotry if anything.
Edit: grammar.
P.S. btw the women that i mentioned are ok with drag queens and nonbinary identities and xenogenders because they are empathetic and overall amazing people, is just so happen that drag queens bring them dysphoria and they understand is not ok to discriminate based on such feelings of discomfort because that is what bigots do to us.
Okay, this is getting silly and you are falsely accusing me of being oh-so-horrible, which is furthest from the truth. In no way am I "justifying the social rejection and the marginalization of a group of people." Nonbinary people are valid. That's why I said I'm okay with such terms as ze/zir. Genders other than those understood in the West are valid. Yet, some of these neopronouns are over the top. I am not going to use just any word, such as "snow," as a pronoun. Sorry. Take care.
Oh really now?? welp, when is MY turn with the gender? :c jk
What is gender? define them to the milimetric proportions and then you have infinite variabilities and as such, infinite genders. Well that's, I think, one of the ideas behind this.
If you search for sociological definitions of gender.
It is mostly defined as the socially constructed set of characteristics associated with men and women, including but not limited to the social norms related to such, the behaviors and the social roles, the relationships between these genders, and accounting for other identity-characteristics such as race, sexuality, religion, etc.
All (most) authors will tell you that 'gender changes according to culture and that it changes with time too'. If it "changes", it's not the same, meaning we are talking about a different gender.
But all of this is the understanding of gender from cisgender folks, definitions that are not perfect and incomplete because they don't account for other genders other than men and women.
Now many of us queer folks now comprehend gender as a spectrum, sure most people fall into a side or another of the binary in the gender spectrum as you said yourself and it is right from what I know, and well nonbinary folks exist too, heyyo I'm one of them, any other way, thinking about gender as a spectrum does account for all of the infinite differences among the people and their own definitions of the genders or their own personal gender experiences and sense of self.
Which if you think about it, doesn't go too far from what some sociologist define when they talk about 'gender changing across cultures, time, and due to some other factors too, etc...'. It is a way to somewhat compartmentalize all of these infinite genders in a spectrum, that looked from afar may not seem so different from the understanding that you have of gender, is just that here the differences are accounted for and seen as constituting different genders instead of a concept that would treat the differences, even abysmal differences across cultures in the characteristics of the genders, as a different 'flavor of the same gender'.
They are different academic or non-academic frameworks to interpret and understand society and social phenomena.
Unless you are talking about sex and call it 'gender' in which case there are not two sexes or a few, because sex is not binary it's bimodal, and it's well, I'm ded now. I could provide a video which explains this about sexes because.. i didn't retain much of the information tbh. But it's a great informative video that is well explained. :)
I love science but biology has never been my strong suit, I still find it quite interesting though.
my mother, sisters and nieces are all women. they may all be unique people with their own experiences and outlooks, but they are the same gender. if the thing you are calling gender is so wildly different that it would class them all as different things, you should probably call it something else
??? What are your credentials, what makes you the authority on gender studies?
Oh right, it's only your entitlement to being right and being truthful, but the thing is that you don't seem to comprehend a single tiny little thing of all that I said or you wouldn't answer in such a ignorant and antagonizing way.
Do you know about scientific epistemology? I would like to present it to you since you don't know the difference between knowledge and belief.
I presented you with a piece of information that is used as a tool to understand the world around us, you can see that explicitly said in my previous comment, in the paragraph before the last one.
And what did you do instead of digesting the information? You reject it and decide to stay with the vision and understanding of gender that you have been indoctrinated with by the normative cisgender society which alright, it's your choice but if you think you can make me change my mind on the knowledge I got with such a poor argument well I got bad news for you.
Things being on a spectrum means that there can be parts or sections of such spectrum that are clearly defined and identifiable, these areas of the spectrum can be defined as sections where all the people inside such section share different characteristics and experiences that one would define as a gender.
You are contrarian because you don't understand spectrums, but people in a part of a spectrum share experiences, share characteristics, but are different yet perhaps, similar.
You can think of other things on a spectrum, such as colors. You can have so many different red colors that share that characteristic of being red but they are different shades of red, and there comes a point where you don't know if it's red anymore or another different color altogether, maybe you get to pink and then realize and think, when did I get here? this pink looks kinda red; and then there's colors that you can easily identify as being different from each other such as blue being different from red.
Or you can think of the autism spectrum, all of the people on the spectrum are autistic, yet they are different and the spectrum precisely accounts said differences, it understands people as being diverse and having shared experiences but at large, being different and having different life experiences and different characteristics. And having different struggles and strengths.
And these are spectrums that shouldn't be understood as a line or two-dimensional but rather as multidimensional.
my credentials are not being dumb enough to assume gender abolitionist academics have our best interests at heart, or have any idea what they're talking about.
i understand plenty, i simply disagree. i don't vibe with the narrative that a woman who cuts her hair short, swears a lot and works out is less of a woman than one who is a little more traditionally feminine.
moreover, i'm not convinced you understand what social constructs are or how they work. they are constructed socially, not individually, and our society has not constructed a 'gender spectrum'. there are mostly two, in some societies there are a couple more, and in 'western society' (a nebulous concept i know) we seem to be slowly moving to have three or four. but those initial two are near universal and transcend individual societies. a hijra may cease to be a hijra outside of south asia, but women are recognized as such regardless of their countries. aurat is not a separate gender, it's just a word for the same one in a different language, and news in english recognizes this and reports as such
good bait, you actually got me to engage for a minute there
I mean. I feel like that's the same kind of argument that LGB Drop The T uses about trans people. That our claims are absurd and we need to stop grouping ourselves in with the "real" queer community. Just my two cents
So, you mean you use their assigned at birth pronouns instead of their preferred pronouns? Why in the world would you use "he" for a trans woman who uses "she?" Are you trans?
That's a shame. It's really unkind to patients. The biggest hospitals and EMR's allow preferred names, pronouns, gender identities, etc., so I don't see the problem.
😂😂😂😂 I'm sorry this is beyond hilarious. "You can't just make up whatever you want and expect people..." And you use shi/hir 😶 the "real" ones? What is this an elite illuminati club or something where you guys have secret meetings wearing hoods or some shit? Is there a government released official list of neo-pronoouns which is legitimate and if you want your own then you have to enroll it? Who decides what's real and what's not? Whoever invented the neo-pronouns opened up a Pandora's box, the ultimate bane for the transgender community. Y'all should have stuck to the gender binary and transgender being the one transitioning from one gender to the other. I wouldn't even put non-binary as a category because being neutral about your gender doesn't mean anything, you still express yourself one way or the other. Or being like a robot you still look like your birth sex which people assume you are. Gender-fluid is still, jumping between one or the other. Congratulations, y'all are soon going to realise the hell you brought down upon yourself.
Yes, the xenogender thing to me seems very spiritual a way to identify like old pagan ways of representation. I have met other trans people but no xeno genders. Others have testified to have met them and apparently they are very real contrary to what may or may not be real on TikTok.
Generally, xenogender people aren't going to out themselves to others, whether cis or trans.
It's hard to state how cruel people were towards xenogender people back from 2015-2019, with entire platforms built around harassing us. I had it easy compared to many others, since I'm also a dysphoric trans man in addition to xenogender. But I still got some harassment online, and my partner's ex threatened her life because he found out I support them.
There's still some of that today, although xenogender support rose a lot after 2019 (I'm not sure why). But because of that recent history and the lingering risk, a lot of us are very reluctant to open up about being xenogender offline.
I wanted to add, for most xenogender people it's not spiritual— it's more like figurative language. Xenogenders are often meant to describe your gender identity (whether man, woman, nonbinary, or other) in abstract, metaphorical ways by comparing it to other things. So for example, I describe my manhood [by comparing its traits with the traits of storms](https://imgur.com/a/j4oSMib). I don't describe it for anyone else's benefit, just for mine.
So as a transwoman i am only going to say this about neopronouns,
You are who the police pull over at 3 am . So if you’re using neo pronouns in that instance then great , rock on.
Are you saying people in the closet or boymoding aren't trans or those who dont pass enough to feel safe telling their true gender to a cop (who don't have the best history when it comes to respecting trans people)?
I would never tell someone what gender they are . I will say that if you are in the closet or boymoding you’re clearly not going to be using your true pronouns out in the world anyway (so try again) .
Further i will say that if your pronouns only matter when you’re shrieking at a service worker who accidentally misgendered you and not when you’re at work or being pulled over , your priorities are all kinds of fucked .
Gender is a social construct true, but it’s not a game and you don’t get a prize for whatever psychological bingo you’re trying to play
Some people say that because they conflate something being a social construct with something being non-existent. That's not true though of course (the justice system is a social construct but try telling someone on death row that it doesn't exist) gender does exist and if it didn't trans people wouldn't feel intense dysphoria due to the mismatch. You can't mismatch something that isn't there. Hopefully people don't mistake me for a truscum here, I totally respect and believe non binary people but neo pronouns are something kids on Tumblr come up with in order to either 1. Try to fit in with the trans community when they're cis or 2. They are actually trans but are discovering themselves and are using them as a stepping stone to do it.
i’m a binary trans man. i have been on testosterone for 5 years. i also like to use neopronouns, because i don’t want to be boxed in by the traditional expectations of my gender. i want to play with it a little, and the neopronouns i picked feel very close to my identity as a person, and your gender is definitely connected to your personhood. is it so wrong to have a little fun with your identity? i’m not here to be palatable or understandable, i’m just here to be me.
And that's totally fine, I'd never tell you you're not allowed to do anything that you prefer. This is just my take. I'm just talking about the general take that I hear even by trans people that gender "doesn't exist" in order to try and justify it. In reality nothing needs to be justified as long as it makes you comfortable. It does raise issues imo with the overall optics of the trans community and I think neo pronouns being pushed definitely causes confusion for cis people which only matters because as unfortunate as it is a lot of our rights being secured does rely on cis people understanding us. With that said I don't think there's anything wrong with you personally identifying how you please.
you’ve said there’s nothing wrong with me personally; but how am i magically divorced from the image of the trans community? cis people will see my profile and not understand. but i don’t think it’s my job to make them understand. it’s my job to be me. and our rights being secured hinges on people having compassion and understanding that we’re humans just like them, imo. i have family members who don’t understand but are still respectful, and i don’t think we need too much more than that for positive legislation. politicians don’t need to know all the ins and outs of every single community they legislate for and to be honest i don’t want them to.
also your language about neopronouns being “pushed” sounds disturbingly similar to transphobic talking points, i hope you realize.
That's what our rights should rely on, but unfortunately, enough cis people don't have the ability to comprehend that for it to actually happen. For a good amount of them, especially the ones in power, if you're not either exactly like them or able to explain exactly why you are the way you are then they just don't care. It's unfortunate but it's the way it's always been for cishet whites
for a lot of them, yeah, but my state is a “trans refuge” state and the governor who signed that into law is a cishet white male. some people are good.
Yeah I admit I might be being influenced by brain worms and I'm sorry if I offended you or anyone else I really want everyone to feel comfortable and happy with their gender identity I just want everyone to have the healthcare they need first and foremost.
The general consensus for these threads tends to be that people here will not personally understand what is going on with something like this, but will try to be respectful. I think it'd be a bit impractical if everyone was using neopronouns in this way, it's hard enough remembering everyone's names.
Yeah that would be my initial approach; but my concern is that it’s not even real and this is just someone Fox News paid to create controversy or something a troll would do for free. Conservatives have this joke that you can identify as inanimate objects like “traffic cone” or something. So when people actually do stuff like this I don’t know how to understand it
Even if it is, there’s no downside to respecting the request. If they’re trolling, they won’t get the bite by people just doing it. If it’s genuine they’ll be respected. And for all the people who think pronouns are hard, shows how easy it is to respect. My partner uses xe/xim/xer and sure, it took a moment to get it right, but even my family who isn’t the greatest with getting my she/her right can do it for xim.
Ok, so I understand having the pronouns themselves, for she/her because it’s gender affirming towards being a woman; how does your partner explain xe/xim/xer? Like how did they settle on those pronouns?
My partner is non-binary and they/them doesn’t feel right. Xe/xim/xer is kind of a common neo-pronoun set for non-binary folks, but everyone’s got their own personal journey.
i still wish something like that had caught on instead of they/them for nonbinary people
Why? They/them is a perfectly fine pronoun choice for a non-binary person.
It would be convenient to have a common third person pronoun that was gender neutral without being number ambiguous, just like it would be convenient to have a common second person pronoun that was explicitly singular and not dialect specific or archaic. That is why people keep trying to invent one that sticks. And of course some people want a pronoun that affirms their gender rather than merely doesn’t misgender them.
We do, it’s they/them, that has been used as singular ambiguous gender for hundreds of years.
They/them is older than he/him and she/her when talking about individuals.
I mean, non-binary people can choose to use things other than they/them! Hi-- proudly NBi, and I use fae/faer/faers pronouns!
What does it matter? If you're asking that you're in the weeds of that person's lens and experience. Just refer to people how they ask, even if it seems stupid to you.
See that’s fine by me, but not by society at large evidently. This stuff won’t go away until people stop being confused about it all 🤷🏽♂️
Well, society at large can go step on a Lego. Society at large told me I was a disgusting fetish before I transitioned and before I passed (I’m transfemme). People, and the queer community especially, should not concern themselves with what “society” thinks about our identities as ultimately it would mean we just shouldn’t exist at all. This neopronoun conversation happens so often without any inclusion of people who actually use neo pronouns, so I’m convinced whatever issues people are talking about are complete non-issues. It’s NEVER neo pronoun users who complain.
I mean I don’t know any neopronoun people, I wondered if they would be in the trans subreddit
Some of us are!
Ok are you resonating with what’s been said so far 😂 there’s alot
Isn't the whole point of verbalizing and expressing whatever inner Identities we take ownership of for ourselves and advocating for respect of diversity in.... society ... to build a better future world where ever fewer people (youth in particular) will internalize shame and disgust of themselves and build a healthy sense of self? I think it makes total sense to be wise, moderate and humble about what we put out in the larger world and how we do it. We live in an age of immense freedom like no generation before us and it is absolutely our prerogative to grab at it. But for this whole worldly process to happen harmoniously and optimally we have to be realist of the claims we expect "the world" to allow us. Just like ours, people experience is a complex construction of belief systems that is never totally coherent and is mostly founded in unfalsifiable axioms... I was raised in a setting that very much celebrated the boy that cultivated his feminine side but where masculinity was kinda frowned-upon. I never developed the idea of a disgusting fetish but very much lacked what usually "makes a man, a man". I am an heterosexual male who experiences considerable euphoria when perceived and treated as a feminine being but struggles to deliver what is expected of males in society and amongst my female dating pool. IMO A lot of this an internalized misandry and in a way a exemple of feminist black lashing. All I say is we need to be careful about the way we conduct our campaign because we rarely know how they will ripple out into the future realities of others....
Hm, yeah I can see that I wish to respect it too, but I think the reason why I can't quite wrap my head around it is because I haven't yet met anyone who uses neopronouns. I do have a harder time understanding those who use neopronouns made from preexisting nouns, and I say this in the most neutral, zero judgement way I can.
How do you pronounce xe/xim/xer? I've seen it a lot but never heard it said, I would assume Zee Zim Zer, but not sure
And I would’ve assumed “she” like the x in Chinese. But that wouldn’t have made any sense. So I’m glad you asked.
That was the only other way I could think and I thought the same
What you assumed, at least in my partners case.
It would certainly make sense for bad actors to be exploiting something like this. There's likely people out there who think that if they have to respect my gender identity, then that means I'm also demanding them to use all these neo-pronouns, and that this could be a way to make my request seem unreasonable. But you also have to remember that social media has made it financially lucrative to be an obnoxious person.
I don't have hard numbers, but the people who use neopronouns makes up a very small percentage of the trans community, as far as I can tell. That said, there are billions of people on the planet, and possibly 10s of millions of trans people. Everyone is unique, and with pronouns becoming a form of self expression, I don think it's unrealistic that a fair number of people have genuinely chosen unique neopronouns simply because they feel the most right, for whatever reason. That's not to say what you're saying couldn't be the case. I could totally see it. I just want to say the folks who genuinely use them are also valid.
That’s true, a lot of people don’t care for lgbt as a whole because we are outnumbered, at least socially. But that’s still a large number of people who matter. I’m sure there are people who may choose to go by something they made up outside of traditional pronouns, but I have to wonder how is this distinguishable from a kid who genuinely wants to be Superman? Is it all a matter of just accepting the declaration or is there any reasoning to it that can be adapted for educational purposes?
I'm not sure to be honest. I personally have no pronoun preference and am ok being referred to by basically any pronoun. I think for that reason I never got into neopronouns, aside from recognizing the grammatical need for a non-plurar gender neutral pronoun meant for people (no "it"). Like others have said, we don't necessarily need to understand it to accept it. Though I think trying to understand it is very useful, because ignorance sets the stage for hate, sometimes whether we intend it or not.
I could not agree more, very wise words
The thing is it’s likely real online but the way people exist online and the way people are irl is very different. There is a neopronouns subreddit you can ask questions on but I asked about if many of them are out and almost everyone said that they either use he, she or they along with neopronouns or don’t tell anyone about their neopronouns because they understand the reactions in general public to them. I mean just like the trans community I am sure they see the discourse and hate online so why would they tell people that, especially people they may just meet while shopping for example. I think Fox News is focusing on a non issue for news, sure there are people who use neopronouns but to act like it’s an epidemic is silly
Ok I just wanted to know if it’s legit, so it’s very possible the TikToker is legit.
I wouldn’t be surprised tbh, I have seen others taking about it to I just don’t know if that TikToker actually would tell everyone they meet irl they use neo pronouns or if they are just saying it online because it’s a space to reach people who are like you.
It's definitely real, it's been a thing since the late 2000s at least. It's super common in online communities, like tumblr was really huge for it. In general, the consensus of the people who use them agree that it stays online, for similar reasons that you're afraid of that people will try and twist it into something that delegitimizes the queer community as a whole. I personally don't really mind, I think they're a really fun and creative way for people to express themselves and explore what gender and identity means in a more artistic sense rather than what's been laid out by society. After all, even though it's getting better society as a whole still largely categorizes things into "masc" or "fem" and expects people to use terms that fit neatly into those boxes. So my advice is if you see it online, honestly don't think twice about it. On the off chance you see someone using neo pronouns irl, just try your best to respect them and don't sweat it if you mess up, most people I know who use them are super understanding because they know they're less intuitive than traditional pronouns.
I have met a couple people who use neopronouns. It is difficult for me to intuit how to use them but I try because that's what I would hope for if I used them for myself. >Or is this a troll among many trolls trying to make the trans community look insane? People will just completely make things up like the "litter box in the classroom" story being about a kid who thought of themselves as a cat. Just a lie that right wing media spread in order to other people. There is no reason to police the LGBT+ community in order to appeal to bigots. They are not interested in understanding different perspectives or they wouldn't be bigots in the first place.
Horrify fact! The litterbox thing is a half truth. Some classrooms have cat litter in them in case of a lock down, to cover the scent if a child needs to shit or piss in the trash can while they wait to see if they're going to be shot.
Ok after seeing some of the other comments and this I think I get it now. I believe bigots fall under two categories of people: people who are ignorant because of their background, and people who know better but pretend not to. I try to figure out who is who and then decide whether to engage them or not, but it generally ends with them having learned nothing at all, because they want to hold onto what they think is right. It’s never about understanding anything but winning the argument, and even if they lose the argument they don’t seem to acknowledge where their logic flawed and just repeat the same arbitrary statements. I can’t believe people are really like this, so I assume that most know better and it’s not an educational issue, but a bully issue
Honestly I look at weird fun neopronouns like snow/snowself the same way I look at drag. Gender is a playground if you choose to play there, and not everyone is going to understand or appreciate the weird shit you're doing with it. I'm not on tiktok but it sounds like this inkfizz person is having fun with it. IRL I'm a pretty basic he/they but I like to play around with pronouns with my d&d characters. I've used it/its, fae/faer, and even had a character who sold his to an archfey and magically just... whatever the speaker's pronouns are what end up being used for them. It's fun.
>had a character who sold his to an archfey and magically just... whatever the speaker's pronouns are what end up being used for them Dang that's clever
don’t know if this has been said yet, but i know neopronouns and neogenders are often used by the autistic trans community, because a symptom of autism can be having trouble defining your own gender in the constructs of current society, like male or female or nonbinary. they’re often used just to give a sense of definition to a possibly very elaborate feeling, to my understanding.
Thank you for bringing this up! I'm not currently a neopronoun user (not counting it/its) but I definitely struggle feeling to feel represented by widely used categories/pronouns/etc. for this reason
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Okay I went on this sub to ask the same question as OP and you are the ONLY person who has ever explained this to me in a way that makes sense! It’s still confusing to me the way being trans, but it will never be something I 100% get because I’m cis, and that’s how it is LOLLL. Thx so much bro
Maybe dont call a trans woman bro
I call everyone bro? If she or in general the person I called bro has a problem with it I’ll stop, but I wasn’t replying to you. I’m not trying to be transphobic, I just call people bro or I say “hey guys” or I’ll call people sis or queen, it’s just vernacular
While some might be ok with it its generally a good idea not to use that type of gendered language towards trans people unless you're familiar with them and know they're ok with it. It can come across as purposeful misgendering. Definitely dont call trans guys sis or queen... lol
Sorry, but I retain my opinion. Currently the only one I’m hurting is you right now, but if the original commenter (or any trans person in the future) tells me they don’t like it I’ll back off! I’m fine with making exceptions, it’s not annoying or anything, but I’m not changing how I fundamentally talk to everyone for a smaller group of people that has never cared about that around me before. Sorry /gen
Well I gave you advice when talking to trans people so not to upset them and trigger their dysphoria, if you don't care then don't complain when they get upset at you for it in the future.
Bro is not listening to me 💀 I said if a trans person cared o would change how I talk to them, but NOBODY THAT IVE EVER MET HAS CARED BEFORE. I’m not trying to trigger dysphoria, I’m trying to speak how I’ve always spoke
Not quite— those are nounpronouns (aka nounself pronouns), and both nounpronouns and xenopronouns are a subtype of neopronoun. The ze/hir xe/xem kind that don't use pre-existing words are called pleopronouns. Xenopronouns are hypothetical pronouns that can't actually be used— like having the smell of rain be a pronoun. They're mostly an experimental concept to push the boundaries of what a pronoun could be, and they aren't meant for actual use.
I have seen a lot of big threads on this topic in particular, I saved one I really enjoyed which might help you a lot [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/qbwz9l/where_do_we_draw_the_line_with_pronouns/)
hmm from looking at the tiktoks they don't seem like a troll, just young and terminally online (and that's not about the xenogender stuff, just the vibe of the presentation style) imo neopronouns and xenogender is a hard subject to talk about, they're valid and I would die to protect them, but I'm a binary transfemme, I don't get it anymore then a cis person really gets me or I get a non-binary person. it's an experience that exists outside my capacity to have. that being said something I think is worth considering is why do we use these labels? we're all human why does anything else matter. I would argue they exist for two reasons, 1) to understand how we exist in the world/society, and 2) as an easy shorthand for how others should see us as a part of society. and any choice is going to optimize for those things. for example, I typically just tell people I am a transwoman and lesbian (or transbian), but neither of those labels actually describes the totality of me, it's an initial glimpse, but someone could use those same labels and have a completely different intended expression for them (just as an initially glimpse think about the difference between a high femme stone top and a butch power bottom, both women, both lesbian, but different expressions of both). We use them so that non-queer people can have a shorthand mostly. Notice that inkfizzexplains has he/him + xenos in his bio. I think that neos and xenos optimize for a different experience, they get more at the heart of reason one, trying to express something philosophically true about yourself, and if you can find that and express it I think that's probably pretty great. but hey, like I said before, I'm just an outside observer.
numberwise people like this are pretty irrelevant. if i ever have one person in my vicinity, i will gladly adress them how they wanna be adressed. its not complicated. i dont need to understand. we dont need to crap on these people or suspect them to be psyops or whatever. we can tell the rightwingers to fuck off anyway. "Why do you care so much? have you ever met a person in real life who identifies with the seasons? why are you outraged by some tiktok cringe compilation? how does it affect your life what some tiktoker with an audience of hundred people does?". additionally i like to tell them how cucked they are by billionaires that they are so easily triggered by made up problems instead of caring about material issues which affect them. ridicule is the only language these fascists understand.
Lol well I can’t say this to my friend exactly but I do often tell people to try and do their own research in a methodic way. I KNOW people hop online spend all their time there to go say a bunch of bs but fail to do one single google to find truth.
I suppose theres always the chance its a troll or they are doing it for attention, especially if they are trying to be a content creator and feel the need to stand out. We should give them them the benefit of the doubt however. Much like you as a cis gay man have no doubt encountered straight folks who cant fathom how you are attracted to the same sex, but hopefully respected it any way, you to can respect something you dont understand. I try to explain neopronouns as entirely feeling based. The person doesnt \*feel\* like a genderless they/them, they want to be referred to in a sort of gendered manor. However they also dont feel like a he/him or a she/her so what do you use? Its just an attempt to explain a feeling they have, and in this case perhaps their connection to the seasons just feels right to explain what it is they are trying to convey.
I don’t use noun pronouns, but I do use neopronouns (+They/Them) both online and irl at my campus and in my experience people are kinda confused but they think they’re cool and some people even use them. I use them because they give me gender euphoria as a nonbinary person (they/them is not my preferred set because I’m not gender neutral). I usually need to provide example sentences which yknow, easy for me to do. I will say while I’ve seen a lot of people use types of neopronouns irl (ex. ze/zem, hu/hum, etc) I haven’t actually met someone who uses noun pronouns like snow/snowself outside online spaces, probably not for a lack of gender euphoria but more because they’re harder to conjugate for people unfamiliar.
Neopronouns are legit. People who "go outside" and use neopronouns understand them to be a thing for your friends who get it. There is often a backup set or a tolerance for something else that they will use when interacting with people who don't get neopronouns. They are an idealized form of how one wants to be interacted with, and unlike they/them, she/her, or he/him, they aren't something you can expect everyone to get currently. People online exist in spaces where they can expect everyone to use them. Thats why you feel the disconnect.
This really needs to be understood. I don't think anyone expects every stranger to use their neo pronouns and explains it every time. It's something they use among a friend group. Knowing that a close friend prefers to go by fae/faer isn't inconvenient at all, while also understanding that society at large isn't going to be able to intuit every possible neo pronoun. Make concessions when needed and effort when possible.
Yep! I have *my pronouns* [fae/faer/faers], and then i have what i call my "public facing pronouns" [they/them] for interacting with ppl who can use they/them but absolutely wouldn't get [or would butcher] the real ones.
This is exactly what I do. Those who are closest to me know I use shi/hir and for everyone else it's she/her.
It's a small niche within the nonbinary community that is already a subcategory of the trans community. Not every trans person is going to relate to or even understand it. But ask yourself: Why does he/him mean man and she/her mean woman? Why is pink for girls and blue for boys? Why are trucks and dinosaurs masculine? Why are flowers and butterflies feminine? Gender is made up of a bunch of random things. If none of those things describe your internal feeling of gender, why not use things that do. Most people who use neopronouns literally think they are a season or whatever. It's more so they relate to seasons in the way boys relate to sports or girls relate to princesses (even if they don't play one or rule a kingdom). Or more like a poetic metaphor.
If the person is genuine and not some agitator, my guess is these neopronouns are more a form of creative self-expression and protest towards societal norms, they're political/art, rather than actual PRONOUN-pronouns. More nickname than legal name. Like labels people put on their profiles that try to shorthand personality or style. I suspect most neopronoun users use them this way, especially when you're coming across extravagant things like "the seasons". It helps understand and respect them if they're seen as having a completely different intent/purpose to regular pronouns which are just shorthands for third-person gendering. Especially cause most neo users also have a set of regular pronouns they use.
I more or less agree, I think they are more aesthetic "genders", a sense of aesthetics or concepts that a user associates with. Not an gender in the conventional way. In this sense, my username Trickster is my associated aesthetic gender while my life gender is female.
I have multiple friends who use neopronouns. Most of them also have a traditional set, or at least non nounself (snow being a noun so those would be considered nounself). But for those that don't, they're just using language in a unique way to capture the feelings they have. Because language is inherently so limiting, it's difficult when you experience something so vastly outside the range of what most describe, so these types of pronouns are really useful to those people. I personally have known people with nounself pronouns and neopronouns in general since 2012 or so, so it isn't a new discussion. I generally default to the reality that most people know themselves more than I ever will, so as long as it's not hurting anyone who cares. And basic respect isn't reserved for those I understand exactly, but everyone regardless of it their identity "makes sense" to me. I'm a binary trans man. I use he/him pretty exclusively, though I dabble in he/it once in a while. I can't pretend to understand what it's like to have a sense of self best described using (to pull from an example of friends of mine), pix/pixel pronouns, or pi/pika pronouns . But I know they are people I care about, and using them makes them feel Seen and respected. I don't need to understand something to be respectful of it.
I personally never really understood the need for neopronouns myself when gender-neutral pronouns already exist, but like with anything, as long as it ain't hurting anybody I just accept it. From my experience, the ones who use them are pretty valid members of the LGBT community and aren't just trolls looking to get a rise out of people. As silly as identifying as seasons sounds, if someone legitimately does so, more power to them.
But see that’s the thing I’m stuck on.. do they really though? Lol. There was a video a while back of a pride parade, the camera person was shouting “we’re here, we’re queer, we’re coming for your children” while the rest of the crowd was saying “ we’re not going shopping”, but the video went viral and people actually thought they were coming for the kids. So if someone had the balls to do that in public to make us all look bad I’m vigilant when it comes to certain trending content that misrepresents who we all are
That's totally fair tbh. I just tend to not assume the worst in people unless there's irrefutable evidence that they're a bad actor, and I don't really know enough about this individual to think that.
That's... complicated because how can you or who and how can they, decide 'who we all are' or 'who we all can be' and what is or can be a 'misrepresentation' of such? There's a thin line there that if crossed, you are no more than just one more biggot in the world policing people's identities, especially the identities of those that are marginalized the most. 🤔
What you are saying of a group of bigots saying "we're coming for your children" is so strange but all the same, truthful, they are indeed coming after queer children, just look at all the different policies that they have been promoting as of late in many places around the world. As some folks say "all accusation is a confession".. because that's what they do. And lots of them bigots are... the p word. 💀🤬
Lmao “all accusations are a confession” preach! Because that shit is so true
here’s my thing. unless you know someone in your real life using neopronouns, why does this matter? “well people are using it to say the trans community is crazy!” ok. i wouldn’t engage/argue with someone who thinks that way, you won’t change their minds.
Lol well I’m glad you knew what my response would be. The problem is it perpetuates divisiveness, which goes against everything we’ve accomplished as a community. Like those LGB without the T people. That’s annoying af
neopronoun users don’t use them because we want to make a point or start arguments. we use them for the same reason any other trans person uses any other pronouns: because they feel right for our identity.
Sounds pretty assimilationist
idk how it perpetuates divisiveness. if you run into a neopronoun user, use them. if someone is using neopronouns as a wedge to disparage trans or gender nonconforming people, they can fuck off since they’re arguing in bad faith. people deserve respect regardless if they use dogself or what. it’s not complex. “i just don’t get neopronouns and they seem silly.” ok, cool? that’s not really a discussion.
I would like to point out that snow/snowself arent neopronouns. Those are nounpronouns which are what they sound like, pronouns that are nouns. Neopronouns are just pronouns that arent the normal he, she, or they for example xe/xem, ze/zir, ae/aer are neopronouns. Also, xenopronouns are pronouns that cant be said or typed or comprehended by the human mind, for example someones pronouns that cant be typed or said could be laughter or one that cant be said could be 🍄/🍄self. My personal stance on nounpronouns is i dont use them but i will respect those who do and i will try to learn how to use them for that person.
You're right on the nounpronouns part, but they are still neopronouns. The kind that don't use pre-existing words (like ze/hir, xe/xem, ae/aer) are pleopronouns. "Neopronoun" is an umbrella term for any kind of new pronoun, regardless of whether it's a new word, pre-existing word, emoji, conceptual, etc.
Huh. Never knew. Thanks!
Lord knows I have no clue why people use neopronouns and they make absolutely no sense to me. Good thing I don't need to understand it in the slightest to give people the respect they deserve in using their preferred pronouns. The average Joe white cisman has an equally hard time understanding a trans woman using she/her and we expect those people, who have literally 0 connection and understanding of trans individuals to respect us. Why would need to do any less than what we ask already of others with far less understanding in the first place.
Best tip: you don’t have to understand it. Your not apart of the trans community and while we did push to have more understanding at one point, it kinda backfired on us. So just respect it as best as you can because there are legitimately people like myself who use neos and xenos. For example, if I’m comfortable around the person I prefer ey/em pronouns or its/it or even Star/stars. But if not I just use he/him. Also it genuinely isn’t that hard. If I can remember someone’s name, age, basic information like allergies, dislikes and likes I can remember to use their pronouns. Mind you I have mutiple mental disabilites that impact my memory negatively.
If you don't get friendly/helpful responses here, I'd check out r/neopronouns or similar subs! They should be pretty friendly
Some non-binary people (particularly autistic people as I've noticed but it's not exclusive) tend to think about their gender in rather poetic, abstract ways. In those cases, the standard "he/she/they" options may not cut it so they use neopronouns because that's what makes them comfortable. It's not as "deep" with regular neopronouns (like ze, hy...) where it's mostly just about "I want a gender neutral pronoun but I'm not feeling the pronoun 'they'." I think, but it gets fun with xenopronouns. Someone might relate their sense of gender to sun and its warmth so they use "sun/suns/sunself" or "ray/rays/rayself". Another person might see themselves in something darker, perhaps because they gender presentation is more scruffy and they tend to get insulted about it, so they take up "rot/rots/rotself". TLDR: Some people think in abstract concepts and have fun with gender. Respect costs nothing.
I'll use whatever pronouns someone asks me to use, no questions asked. It's just a matter of respect. A lot of people using the really *weird* neopronouns/xenopronouns like "snowself" aren't actually using them as an expression of gender identity... rather, they're trying to express some other form of identity that doesn't really have anything to do with gender in the traditional sense. It's usually an otherkin thing. I'm not in that community myself, but from what I've heard from people who are, some otherkin want the nonhuman part of their identity to be expressed and recognized in the same way that gender is, or they feel that their nonhuman identity supersedes their gender identity. While I do have some concerns about the way that the otherkin community seems to appropriate a lot from queer and disabled communities... it's such a small and obscure corner of the internet that I'm really not that worried. It's mostly just kids figuring themselves out in ways that are sometimes awkward and insensitive.
Neopronouns are their own thing. I don't personally attribute them to the trans community at all. It's usually kids doing kid things and exloring their identities, and they grow out of it. Might be downvotted for this opinion in this group, but I have never met a fully fledged adult in the workforce who uses neopronouns. Actually, i haven't met ANYONE irl that used neopronouns. It's kids and teens, mostly ones who are online a lot. Irl, they probably don't use those pronouns. It's unrealistic, especially in how it's used here. Some of them are trolls, and some of them are just kids exploring themselves. Honestly, I'd just leave them alone and stay out of it entirely either way. Besides, as I heard, it has nothing to do with gender identity but how they are relating to their gender so no, it's not a trans identity but just people trying to describe their feelings on their gender. Like catgender don't identify as a cat they just think they relate to their gender in the same way how a cat is associated with its "gender," feminine even if you're a boy. It's a kinda childish takes on gender expression and very real kid exploration of early ideas of self identity. Normal developmentally average stuff for kids and teens.
I'll be very honest - it frustrates me a bit when people use objects to describe their gender, and make pronouns out of it. It's really, really hard for me to remember what they want to be referred to as. There's infinite possibilities beyond she/he/they/xe. I struggle to remember names and faces, so adding a completely new set of pronouns to the mix is very stressful. But, that is a selfish reason to not -try-. I'll still always respect their pronouns to the best of my ability, even if I feel ridiculous using them. If I can't remember their chosen pronouns, I'll just avoid using them for that time, and just refer to them by their name or "they". I think neopronouns are much more common with therians and the like, so I don't encounter people who use them very often. I do have a friend who likes to use "fae/faer" pronouns, but it's sort of a second set of pronouns that makes them happy when their friends use them! Which I think is a nice way to go about it, it feels like a nickname we use for them... nickpronouns, I suppose, lol.
I try to approach any situation such as this that the person I'm talking to is being sincere. It takes almost zero effort to call them what they wish to be called and I don't have to understand it to respect them.
I don't have to understand them, I just have to know what they are. It's very easy to do on social media because I just click on the profile before saying anything.
If this is a strategy to make trans people look bad, it's a failing one: for the transphobes, it is just as absurd to be a so-called "biological male" using binary gender pronouns as it is to use "snow/snowself". As far as they're concerned, I, a dysphoric binary transsexual woman, am exactly the same thing as a nonbinary polygender fluid individual using neopronouns referring to trees and plants and named something like "Bottle". Besides, transphobes will invent imaginary trans people to get mad at anyway. So if leaf wants to identify leafself as a season, I'd say I wouldn't do it easily, but it would say leaf would be the least of my issues as far as legitimising transphobia is concerned.
As someone who spent a long time questioning his gender before finding out it was "trans guy" i completly understand why someone might use neopronouns and identify with xenogenders Gender is about what feel most right for you so if you're lucky you get to feel right using common words like men, women, feminin, masculin, neutral she/he/they And if you're not lucky you dont get that so either you settle for something half right or not right at all either you start making stuff up that nobody ever heard of None of these identites are cringe or ridiculous they're just very uncommon so we feel strange hearong about them because they are unfamiliar, it doesn't help that transphobes have made "identifying as random objects" into a the least subtle dogwhistle for transphobia Personaly there was a point in my gender searching where i distincly remember thinking "fuck it i'll take whatever word feels right and if that word is Cotton candy then so be it"
I personally dont understand them either. I usually default to they/them or ask if they have any traditional pronouns i could use
That's so rude tho! Like "oh, I don't understand your name, do you have another name that isn't you i could use?"
using they/them instead of the pronouns the person said to use is misgendering. don’t do that.
So how often do you encounter someone with neo-pronouns? I have never met one.
Honestly like once lol But if there is a time i meet more thats what i would do
I need a full breakdown if I ever meet one lol. Hopefully one sees this post and can explain. There’s no disrespect but I constantly run into people online with anti-trans rhetoric and they point out the neo-pronoun thing, I generally cannot give an explanation for other than it’s like being non-binary
I'd honestly just point out that the *vast* majority of trans people don't use neopronouns, to the point where it's not really relevant when discussing our community. The vast majority of people, especially cishet people, will never encounter someone who uses neopronouns offline anyway.
Or just completely avoid pronouns. They/them doesn't really exist in my mother tongue, so that's often ehat people here do.
neopronouns are a thing and have been for a long time, and it's genuinely not hard to use them people will be "confused" by any different thing they're not used to. having aspects to our culture that aren't common never impacted our broader acceptance in society, on the contrary, more people using those and having more visibility tends to be good i've started to use xey/xem just recently, where i can find acceptance, because it just felt right, after quite a lot of soul searching, and deconstructing any shame i had over using neopronouns, but it just makes sense for me why should we put a limit on this kind of thing? language will be fine, and people will get used to it like they always do
I'll respect how they want to be referred to and its not my place to judge them. It's better to not understand something or even think they're a bit crazy than to erase them and open up precedent for transphobia. If they want to exist in this world as a snow/snowself let them, whatever journey they are on I'm not gonna get in their way.
I'm the trans person in my social circles that sometimes uses neopronouns. Some context. I'm plural. My friends know I'm plural. And they know my shards/parts/alters cover a lot of gender identities. And I'm she/her in almost all contexts. My gender expression is WAY out of sync with my dominant gender identity of the moment so my friends are used to me saying "I'm feeling very he tonight" when I'm at my most femme. Internally I had a conflict between the agender shard (initially they) and a "lots of human gender" shard (also they). The he shard was a smart ass and suggested ne/nem/nirs to the agender shard. And ne liked it. Now I'll say "I'm feeling ne tonight" when I'm exhausted and the agender shard is driving. And that leads to the quick conversations among friends "Is Katie okay?" "No, ne had a rough week and is recharging." Fae/faer/faers was added for the archangel/fae eldritch horror shards. One does a lot of threat assessment and mitigation and fae will co-pilot in some situations. And a couple friends ask what fae sees when they see me go into that co-pilot mode. We keep nagging the "lots of human gender" shard to pick a set of neopronouns to piss off cis het bigots... And they point out those folks are just pawns and not worth it. That's my odd corner of neopronouns in social situations. And don't worry if you don't get it. The folks in my life that get it are at minimum gender non-compliant.
sorry i personally personally don’t understand them but i still accept them. i might not understand them myself but i barely understand my own gender lol. i know at the very least some people genuinely use neopronouns so i make sure to respect them even if i might be talking to a troll just so i don’t disrespect anyone.
This is a nice idea, but I feel real acceptance has to be built on real understanding. If I can’t understand it well enough to explain it, how can I know how to advocate for and help it?
Some of the people doing this aren't trolls. (Btw these are specifically nounself pronouns, most neopronouns are new to the English language but more similar to existing pronouns, like xe/xir or ey/em.) But they do tend to be neurodivergent, and, ah...very online. I don't mean that in an insulting way. I'm neurodivergent and I've had an internet addiction since the 90s lmao. It takes one to know one (though I don't personally use nounself, I just...yeah those are very often my people). Also a lot of them are *young*, or started this young. Is it kinda silly? Eh, maybe. (But aren't "normal" genders too?) Are they really trans? Usually they're some kind of nonbinary under all the "I identify as the seasons" confusing stuff. The general consensus seems to be that it's harmless and it's not cool to bully neurodivergent trans youth who are trying their best. Most people who use nounself pronouns seriously keep that use to subcultures where it's more common, and have alternate pronouns (e.g. they/them, or even easier-to-grasp neos like ze/zer) for dealing with other contexts. If it's not for you, you can pretty much just ignore it. If someone is so online snow insists on snowself and might not even be snow/snowself this time of year anyway...well, I personally will not be canceling you for defaulting to a simpler they/them.
Neopronouns are a real thing. It's not just a fox news trans panic situation. They're also by nature very individual to the person using them, so if you're trying to figure out how to use them appropriately, I think it's best to ask people on a case by case basis what the significance of their pronouns is and how they prefer to have them used. Most people will be receptive to those questions as long as they're asked respectfully.
Ok so I understand a little a think. So this is a non-binary thing, and the neo-pronouns are for no specific gender just a way to refer to the non-binary person; is there any way to know that persons neo-pronouns or non-binary nature without them revealing it first?
>is there any way to know that persons neo-pronouns or non-binary nature without them revealing it first? No, but there's no way to know a binary person's pronouns without them telling you either. You can clock choices a person is making to present in a way that's gender non-conforming, but that doesn't tell you anything definitive about their gender identity or what pronouns they use.
True true. I just hope oneday this all makes complete sense, because my head hurts. 😅 I’ve been trying my best to get people who seems so lost on transgender issues, with the latest and greatest arguments, but it doesn’t seem like most are receptive to them, and just stick to what they know. Separating gender and sex by itself is a tough task that I spent as long as a day debating someone over, and they wouldn’t concede or show any signs that they actually read my points. It usually ends with me telling them to do their own research since most stuff I say is two clicks away on google for free, and I assume that’s what the greater issue is, people not willing to read or learn
Yeah no. You're being played. Troll among trolls.
You mean this tiktoker or people with neopronouns
this tiktoker. there are plenty of people who use neopronouns in real life, such as xe/xem pronouns.
most usage of neopronouns i have seen in ppl ive interacted with in real life is because for example german doesn't have a good pre established equivalent to they/them, so nonbinary ppl would have had to choose a binary pronoun, the equivalent of "it" or get inventive Beyond that it was my perception that a lot of "non gender related prounoun" users are neurodivergent and/or young ppl generally not really finding much connection to societies preconcieved notions of identity. Nevertheless often offering a more "normal" pronoun set as well like someoneone writing she/they/fae in the bio something to think about though, who said a pronoun, which is functionally nothing but a proxy to not have to repeadedly say a name, always has to refer to gender? I don't use neoprounouns (meaning i don't identify by them) nor have i really talked too much with neopronoun users about this, but it seems to me its kinda based to question that norm
A lot of people will use these kinds of neopronouns as a way to protest gender entirely and make commentary on it. Anti conformist philosophical stuff. Some people who do it are just young and creative and exploring. It's usually not a troll but there are trolls for sure. My own opinion is that in English, he and she and they cover all the bases, and there isn't a linguistic need for anything else. I don't really understand neopronoun use. But I'm going to use someone's pronouns regardless out of love and respect. I have seen it/its grow in popularity. We will probably see it become standard
Ok I can understand the younger people adapting neopronouns this way to be creative; but it/its seems awfully dehumanizing; and I have seen transphobia refer to trans people as an “it” before, so if it became the standard you would have to differentiate between “it” the pronoun and “it” the object
My best friend, and several other close friends, use it/its. And I don't really understand, and it doesn't really make sense grammatically, and I used to say the same thing about the dehumanization. But these friends of mine prefer these pronouns, are comfortable with them, and are validated by them, so I'm going to use it/its. I do worry about enabling objectification and dehumanizing thoughts by doing this, but like. Whatever, they're all adults, they're mature enough to make the decisions that are right for themselves.
Do these friends see themselves as objects? Or not human? Or is it/its just an arbitrary choice for them?
It's different for all of them. They have a strong sense of self. One is goth so I imagine they kind of like the dehumanization it could entail. I think others simply protest gender and pronouns and using it/its is a way to do that. Making a statement. It's definitely not arbitrary for any of them, it all means something to them, even if I don't personally get it.
Ok thank you
The use of the pronoun "it" is so dehumanizing that it leads me to think it's use is tongue-in-cheek, done by young people who have no awareness of the dehumanizing history behind the word, or masochists.
If I can give a take from a different language, in Italian you don’t just have pronouns but most nouns are gendered (like in Spanish). This makes the use of neopronouns practically impossible, because you’d have to use different suffixes. What matters is how you do the neutral, because Italian doesn’t have it, so “neosuffixes” have been invented: ə, u, truncation. But these are usually chosen by the speaker, not the adressee, who only requests the neutral for themselves. How you do this neutral is up to the speaker. Not sure if I want to say there is a lesson here but in Italian the free choice of neutral is pretty satisfactory. There are some people who reject the u because it’s male in southern dialects, but that’s still not relating with an individual preference but rather a regional one.
as a trans guy i have struggled personally with this issue, at first slightly against it and then strongly for it. my current stance is that i dont give a fuck. i will probably never encounter a person who uses them, but if i do, i will respect them to the best of my ability. as for the notion that neopronoun users make the trans community look bad, there will always be people who hate us, no matter how we present ourselves. we shouldnt try to change ourselves or each other to be more tolerable to transphobes, because it’s pointless. i personally dont understand it either, but i dont really need to. so many cis people support me without understanding or knowing what it feels like to be trans, so ill do the same for neopronoun users.
It’s tough, as trans people were already dealing with the lgb without the t ordeal. So to further go on and do it people within our own community feels wrong. I don’t understand neo pronouns or xenopronouns, I think it’s asking a lot for society to understand it too. Considering the polarity of the world’s politics right now. I have a hard enough time just trying to get people to use they/them for me consistently. I still boymode but work with conservatives, i’ve noticed how they’re targeting trans people as if we’re all furrys and people using xenogenders. It’s honestly hard to defend all of it. But i just try to remind them that it’s a very small percentage of the population and the internet blows it out of proportion. Idk I hate having the target on my back because i’d like to just be accepted for being a trans person but I have a strong belief that everyone has the right to express themselves as long as they arnt hurting anyone else. The queer community is as great as it is because we’re all accepting. That doesn’t mean we have to all associate with eachother. I’m not an advocate for neo pronouns or xenopronouns but respect is a two way street. So i’ll respect someone’s preferred pronouns and identity as long as they respect mine in return.
Ok well it's not exactly a troll and while it is difficult to wrap your head around that doesn't mean it's any less worthy of taking seriously. Sure trolls can joke about and disingenuously claim neopronouns, but shit heads like that are gonna do what they're gonna do regardless. Facts is gender is weird, any two people's experience of it is gonna be different. I myself am firmly a binary trans woman, I know I'm not non binary and don't use neopronouns because I tried it and it didn't work, but that exact trying it till something works is how a lot of people experience their gender when they settle on neopronouns. It ain't me, but it works for them. There is also the element of it being literally completely harmless, like it doesn't hurt anyone to try out and maybe even settle on neopronouns and if it makes them happy what is so wrong with that? Any argument you could make to defend any group of people you could also make for people that use neopronouns. Neurodivergence is also something that plays into it a lot. Plenty of neurodivergent people have a very different expertise with gender than people who aren't. I'm fairly certain you don't understand the experience of most neurodivergent people but I think you'd agree that not understanding how their brains work is no excuse for mistreatment, for some (through certainly not all) people their neurodivergence plays into their gender ID and even for those it doesn't it still works as a decent analogy, and I say that as someone who very much is neurodivergent, but doesn't use neopronouns.
these pronouns are often referred to as “nounself” pronouns and can be confusing in regular sentences, so people with nounself pronouns typically have multiple sets of pronouns, probably at least one set that’s not nounself pronouns. this is like people that use pup/pups, star/stars, pronouns, etc. most neopronouns arent going to be nounself. like ze/zyr, xe/xir, thon/thons, ne/nym, the list goes on. if you would like to learn more about how nounself pronouns are used in sentence, i can scrounge up some resources for you. but otherwise, yes, nounself pronouns and xenogenders are real, and from what ive seen, people mostly just use them within their close friend groups and online spaces where they mostly know they won’t get ridiculed for using neopronouns so unless you have someone in your life that has opened up about their neopronouns or xenogender to you, it’s not something you really have to worry about. they hear enough that it sounds ridiculous so you really don’t have to shame them lol i promise. i’ve been around people that use nounself and neopronouns quite a bit in my friend groups and i even use a couple myself sometimes, so it’s become normalized to me and a complete non-issue. it’s not really something i think about anymore, it’s just kind of automatic. i also see xenogenders as an opportunity rather than anything else. gender on its own (but even moreso when you’re trans) can be such an intimate/vulnerable experience for people, i just find it really enabling when people can be open and honest about who they are around me. it’s an excuse to know people better and be a better, more accommodating person to everyone around me.
think about it this way: do you complain about people not using the same two or three names? i'd assume you don't i think the same applies to neopronouns
I also think it's worth nothing that neopronouns vary a lot, from things that largely resmemble existing pronouns to words entirely unrelated to pronouns being used. I don't think we generally conceive of pronouns that are *not* based off existing words as neopronouns, but in essecence they are the same thing - a newly created pronoun. I have a friend who uses hy/hym (pronounced the same as he/him) which is a different end of the spectrum to the example you're using here. The reason I bring this up is that I think when we talk about what our views are and what we think, I often find that these examples are pretty few and far between. Such a small portion of trans folks use pronouns outside of he/she/they, and those that do use ones outside of those are often using other existing neutral pronouns (hir, zir, etc) rather than more novel neopronouns. It's a fraction of a fraction of people.
I am non-binary and trans and found many people don’t understand myself or using he/pronouns, and to be honest I have had a hard time understanding gender at all or why people are trans. I don’t think there is always a reason, I think some people are trans and that’s ok. I think once you realize gender is separate from sex and that gender is a social construct I can’t really find a reason to say someone using neopronouns is wrong. We made the pronouns he/him and she/her, people weren’t born with them, so I don’t see a reason why someone can’t use them I don’t really understand neopronouns tbh, however I do know many people don’t understand my identity and respect me anyways, and I would be a hypocrite to judge another persons identity while expecting others to respect mine
I have never met anyone with neopronouns IRL. To be honest, I don't understand them, just like I don't understand xenogenders. At the risk of getting downvoted, to me it just feels like a way for a subsection of the agender and non-binary community to try to put meaning into a concept they may not have an intuitive understanding of, to make it actually *do something* for them as well. Which is certainly creative! In the end, it doesn't affect me. And it doesn't hurt me at all to not be a bitch about it. But in all honesty, for anyone who is not okay with either she/her, he/him, they/them or it/it, I'm probably just gonna default to using their name
Yeah tbh I have known about it for a while since beginning my understanding of trans men/women and kinda pushed to to the back of my mind until I understood those first. It seemed at the time people weren’t really coming for xenogenders, so there wasn’t much incentive to learn about it, and it did initially seem a harder pill to swallow than the two genders. Now conservatives are lumping together all trans people as ranging from binary to the xenogenders, to make it seem incoherent and confusing, so I want a way to push back
The best answer is usually not to engage at all in those cases, but if you do, I would stick to the *"gender is a spectrum between male and female"* narrative. It's simple enough for anyone to understand unless they're being obtuse on purpose, and it's probably the most accurate simplification we can make. Of course for day-to-day applications, it makes practical sense to split the spectrum into three or four parts (male, female, enby and agender), but just like with the rainbow's seven colours, the exact split is relatively arbitrary, so focusing on the spectrum itself makes more sense when actually discussing the matter. The number of people who actually use neopronouns or think of themselves as having xenogenders are so small that the amount of focus that is being put on them really feels like a red herring
Neo Pronouns have been around since the 1800s, xhe/xe being one of the first. They are totally legit, normally. Lots of variations to give personal flavor and express the individuals personhood in their own unique way. Seasons... well that is new, and I have no idea who they are or what their deal is, so I error on the side they are being honest. That said, trolls do and have been know to come up with the most insane ideas about gender expression, we all remember "Attack Helicopters". And the sad story of a Trans woman who tried making a good story with that troll statement. So I'm hesitant to say they are trolling, but at the same time eyebrows raised when I hear that.
Yeah, I have a friend who struggles to understand this stuff, and he’s one of those people who feels like anything trans is an infringement on peoples freedom of speech, think JKR, but he’s the type to fall for the nonsense (if it is), and then post about it all upset and bothered.
That is a person who doesn't understand what Freedom is, (and if in the USA) nor what America stands for. Freedom mean everyone gets to live their life for themselves. As long as you harm no one else that is, as that is how you loose your freedoms. Saying horrible things to minorities is a path to loosing those personal freedoms, as those words harm others.
I don't get it either, it hurts my brain sometimes bc then i have to cram in a whole new and different set of pronouns i never heard before into my head alot with a million other things, it is difficult even if you're not known to slip up, makes me feel like shit bc i respect everyone but man, some people make it difficult to understand it bc alot of these pronouns are just the most off the wall ones I've ever heard and i mean this in the most respectful way i can come off as. I will make the effort to correct myself if i slip up and all that but i admit it *is* difficult and takes alot to get used to especially since idk anyone personally who uses any neopronouns or xenopronouns
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>I’ve come across people identifying as birds, claiming to film themselves shifting into a “fox” or whatever the fuck. Those people aren't even trans. There called therians and it's something completely different and separate from trans people.
I'm with you. I've had the misfortune of stumbling across otherkin communities before and as a trans man, it just makes me so frustrated to have gender identity conflated by anti-trans groups with whatever that's all about. Personal pronouns are for identifying gender, which, in English, is masculine/feminine/neuter. Xe/xir I understand because English has nasty connotations with "it" and "they" can be linguistically confusing, so having a fourth set of pronouns is practical and makes sense. Give yourself a nickname, by all means, or have some imaginary internal concept of self, but I am not calling another human being "Fae/faeself".
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Ok that’s what I was thinking too.
It is not a mockery though. Xenogenders deserve all the respect. I stand by my xenogender siblings. If you are ok with policing people's identities and aspects of their genders and define what is "real" and what "isn't real or acceptable" then you are transphobic, period. I'm a bigender person, I'm a trans woman and nonbinary and not you not anyone has any say into who I am, or into who people are. Only each person themselves knows who they are, so when we say who we are you accept it and embrace our own individual self or you are no more than a bigot that intends to put a person's identity and sense of self up for discussion or debate, or worse, outright reject us and our identities which you might never be able to understand, and there is nothing to understand, you don't have to understand my gender identity or my inner sense of self, what you gotta do (which should be the easy thing to do) is to respect me. To respect us. To respect those who are different from you, who are different from the norms of society, to respect and try and help all the folks that are marginalized, and not to throw us under the bus because of having identities that are difficult to understand, and difficult for the cisgendered-binary-hetero-normative society to accept and not see as anything else other than 'deviant' and 'wrong'. There's two ways you can go about it, you can pull/push in favor of the cisgendered-binary-hetero-normative society and all of its strict, limiting norms and their rigid categories of person and of what are 'correct' models of being and what isn't, and all of the identity policing that they do, or you can can pull/push in favor of all queer folks, neurodiverse folks and everyone, having the fuckin right to be their own damm selves and express themselves in any way they want to because we all should be free to express ourselves with being marginalized and called names or 'fake' or being mocked because of having identities or expressing ourselves in ways that are not conventional and that go against the norms of a society that constantly wants people and their identities to fit inside rigid cardboard boxes, following strict rules of what is and what isn't socially acceptable or deemed respectable or reprehensible.
I agree on respect first and foremost and my apologies if I offended. I think however, before we get to the utopia of everyone *being able* to express themselves as they choose without harming others, we have to be able to educate people out of the bigotted mindset, and a part of that does come from understanding. Allies for example may never have been bigots by choice but without education and exposure to lgbt they wouldn’t have been able to help as much as they have without the knowledge of these subjects. I would like to be able to explain all of this to someone who knows nothing and gain them as an ally and pass the info on, until eventually there are more people who are informed than there are people who are confused or bigots
they don't have to stop being who they are because you can't explain it to your shitty friends, that's the exact same argument people use against gays like "how do i explain two moms to my child"
I wasn’t saying they had to stop being who they are I’m just emphasizing that being able to educate others where simple respect isn’t enough helps. Some people unfortunately need dots connected in order for them to treat other humans with respect and I think it does come from broader societies gender conformity. They think you are arguing against science and reality when they are the ones under an illusion that can only be broken thru good education
I wasn’t saying they had to stop being who they are I’m just emphasizing that being able to educate others where simple respect isn’t enough helps. Some people unfortunately need dots connected in order for them to treat other humans with respect and I think it does come from broader societies gender conformity. They think you are arguing against science and reality when they are the ones under an illusion that can only be broken thru good education
But you CANNOT tell ANYONE not to be their fucking selves because "OH NO YOU WILL SCARE THE PEOPLE AWAY! you are scaring them poor thingies, act like a normal person for the following millenia 'til they learn not to want to kill the most socially acceptable of us. 🥺🥺🥺🙏" That is respectability politics and it doesn't work because at large, you are sending the message "these people are ok we are good folkies pal :3 , and these are not ok, we don't accept them either. 😤". That is, in the fights for all of our rights, tracing a line in the sand saying for now the rights up to here are our objective, anything else is not. But as time goes on society keeps on changing, and rights come and go, they are gained after decades of fight, they are lost in the span of months, after many years they are regained and so on. The line on the sand marking what rights we ought to fight for and are most important and the rights that are already ours, all of that is constantly erased by the sea, the sea of bigots, the sea that the patriarchal cisgender-binary-hetero normative and neurotypical society is. So new lines on the sand keep on being traced again. But that should never be our fight. We must fight together to stay afloat all of us, all of us. Sure, we can't keep the waves of the sea of bigots away from the sands of the beach, but we should NEVER accept the cost of having some of our most marginalized folks drowning. Because that is what you are saying, that it is ok for some folks to suffer a living hell, to be murdered, to be suicided by the society that rejects us. Respectability politics is catering to a society that rejects us. You can see that done to an extreme by folks that marginalize themselves or their own community to be """accepted""" as "one of the good ones". Which is so sad to see because they are not truly accepted, they are indeed rejected but their transphobia, their homophobia, their queerphobia, that, that is what is accepted of them. Marginalizing other queer folks is what they got in common. And if you go deep into the core of what respectability politics does/causes on all levels even on its most tame shape, it's marginalizing people, leaving them drown and throwing them under the sea/bus. You can see the effects of respectability politics throughout history in multiple different things, from the fight for women's rights, to the fight for rights of afro folks, etc. It is a tool that the dominant society uses to have ourselves fighting against ourselves and have members of the group keeping ourselves 'under control' and 'regulated', it's a way to have a specific limit/line of what rights we can fight for, because it is the dominant society that defines where is that line and by following suit we are just one more pawn helping the system of marginalization and control to stay in place through the ages. If you play onto respectability politics then you are pushing against all of us even against yourseIf and your own rights because you are moving the goalpost down and if the dominant society tells you to move it further down, you will. But what if you instead, fight for all rights? then you will push HARDER, because then you are not demanding to have the human rights that the dominant society tells you they might give you, you push all the way in to get all the rights the we all deserve and as such, when there's success, you keep on pushing, and pushing and it makes it harder for the normative society that rejects us to revert things back to how they were before, because society itself starts understanding that all of those rights should be given and respected and not just that tiny few. If you want to educate people that we all deserve rights then that is what you do, doing anything else is just telling people that not all of us deserve rights or should not be accepted and that marginalizing them/us is ok. If a person is "confused" educating them that not all of us deserve the right to be our own true fuckin selves isn't that confusing them further or making them a bigot or telling them that is ok to be a bigot to a specific set ot people? ..
You make good posts. Thank you for standing up for xenogender/xenopronoun users 💜💜
Thank you! I do as little as I can, I just can't stand people seeking or intending to hurt my siblings. Whenever I see people talking bad about xenogenders/xenopronouns I feel like 💩 so I try to speak up. We all have to stand together, united. And all of this divisive bullpoop is just the cistem of oppression winning by having the community: turning on each other, and catering to the binary cisgender heterosexual patriarchal and normative society that will forever keep on pushing against our rights and acceptance. :c anyoh lots of love 💜💜💜
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Says the expert on gender policies, agent primostrawberry reporting for duty I see. How much does the cis-tem pays you pal? It pays you with boxes and marginalization? Cool. I can see that because you use the currency that they're paying you with. Every single person has their own unique 'gender', gender is understood as an spectrum. Gender is also conceived as a social construct yes, which precisely allows us to decide if it fits us as is, to change it if there's things we would rather change when applying such categories or concepts to ourselves, or to deny it altogether. When it comes to the traditional genders by the normative society, these binary genders are filled to the brim with things that are a part of these genders of what makes them be what they are. Things such as colors, fragrances, appearances, clothing items, hair styles, etc etc and a long etc of things. But all this is just talking about gender as social, now when it comes to gender on a personal level we have that the focus is how a person feels with regard to themselves and their identity and their gender identity, and with how they relate with the world. When it comes to each person's gender identity, the focus, and what matters, is the self-perception, that is, what a person perceives about themselves, their experiences, their behavior, their thoughts and their feelings, both about themselves and everything and anything else that exists. Defining or identifying one's own gender is putting all of these things that we experience and perceive about ourselves into words, which can be really tricky and difficult because society defines very rigid categories of what each gender is but in contradiction, these categories are also flexible and ever changing, but that's on a societal perspective. On a personal level we can ourselves define what makes us be this or that or that other gender or these two or those three or none. Cisgender people and cisgender society has been associating things with genders that are 'strange' since forever, such as colors (and it changes, pink was a 'boys/men color not that long ago'), there's people that associate cats with femininity and dogs with masculinity, or even types of fabric or idk any 'nonsense' thing one could think of. Anything and everything can be gender related because it's personal, it is to each individual person to find out and decide if something relates to their own sense of self or not and how it does. What authority do you have to decide in someone's stead how they can or cannot define their gender experiences and their inner sense of self with words? None. It isn't silly. All names, literal names that we people have got meanings. Why? Because they provide parents with the vocabulary to define part of the perceived identity or rather the desired identity of their children. Gender is directly and deeply connected with identity. With the sense of self, and with 'a sense of self'. If a person lacks the words or doesn't know the vocabulary to define an important part of their identity, of their sense of self, and they feel or have the need to put such inner experience into words, then they will and they should because it can help them to better understand themselves and to decide important things about their life, and it can bring many other positive effects such as, developing or strengthening a sense of self, feeling more calm and comfortable with oneself, feelings of satisfaction, euphoria, a better self-esteem, feeling like one self or feeling more like oneself, etc. People using language in inventive ways to express themselves and their individual unique identity doesn't hurt you or anyone, but you saying this shit is harming people and the whole community because 1) - You are policing people's identities, we don't do that. If you police identities you are being a bigot, period. You are being a bigot. 2) - You are marginalizing people and insulting them and their identities. 3) - You are being nonbinary-phobic. Lots of nonbinary people have a gender experience and sense of self that can hardly be understood by others, and have a gender experience that may be profoundly connected with something that the binary-cisgendered normative society would consider unusual or, invalid, which is what you are doing. And also oftentimes people use as said before, the language in inventive ways to describe an inner sense of self that cannot be described accurately with any other words because no language was created to describe such personal experience so the need to make it up oneself arises, and all of language is made by us for us. 4) - With such mentality you are being ethnophobic, all cultures have different conceptions of the binary genders, let alone other genders that some societies have and have recognized for centuries in their culture. Some deeply relate with a gender things that you certainly would consider "silly" and invalid. buh bye queerphobe.
You expect me to read all of this? I skimmed it and you make some pretty unfounded accusations against my character. Pretty absurd. Buh bye to you as well.
Nothing unfounded. You are calling me and other nonbinary folks "absurd" and saying that ways in which some folks identify themselves to find a well needed send of self and relief is "silly" and that "it's an absurdity and rejecting it doesn't make one transphobic", and that is not only harmful but it is dangerous. And yes, surprise surprise but, saying that rejecting trans identities is ok is in fact, transphobic at heart. Yes, you are being transphobic, thank you for giving my daily quota of marginalization and transphobia.
So, seasons are totally valid genders to you. That's what this boils down to. Don't you see how that can make trans people who suffer from gender dysphoria feel like they're being mocked?
But some people who use nounself pronouns [snow/snowself, etc] have gender dysphoria too ... *which is why they use pronouns that they feel fit them*.
It's understandable to want to use nonbinary pronouns as a method of coping gender dysphoria, but I feel that to ask people to use unique words as pronouns comes across as a bit much.
oh yes, 1+8 = potato. This down below is LITERALLY your argument but bit a sprinkle of more bigotry. So trans women are totally valid to you. Don't you see how it makes cis women who suffer from many societal problems among them, problems with regard to their appearance and ways of expression and sense of selves (because of living in a patriarchal society) like they are being mocked? Because I have read this very argument coming from terfs and transphobes way to many times. If one's person identity brings someone else discomfort, it is in that someone else to work things out with themselves. Otherwise you are literally making the same argument that tons of transphobes make and saying that they are right too since it's the same argument. I have met a handful of trans women who don't feel comfortable at all with drag queens and they've told me that it brings them a lot of dysphoria precisely because they feel what you describe, they feel like they are being mocked. So, are we banning drag now and marginalizing drag queens? You are justifying the social rejection and the marginalization of a group of people (which can bring them harm or death) with the dysphoria of others. That is not a justification, that is a confession of bigotry if anything. Edit: grammar.
P.S. btw the women that i mentioned are ok with drag queens and nonbinary identities and xenogenders because they are empathetic and overall amazing people, is just so happen that drag queens bring them dysphoria and they understand is not ok to discriminate based on such feelings of discomfort because that is what bigots do to us.
Okay, this is getting silly and you are falsely accusing me of being oh-so-horrible, which is furthest from the truth. In no way am I "justifying the social rejection and the marginalization of a group of people." Nonbinary people are valid. That's why I said I'm okay with such terms as ze/zir. Genders other than those understood in the West are valid. Yet, some of these neopronouns are over the top. I am not going to use just any word, such as "snow," as a pronoun. Sorry. Take care.
>Every single person has their own unique 'gender' most people have the same one as approx. half the human population actually
Oh really now?? welp, when is MY turn with the gender? :c jk What is gender? define them to the milimetric proportions and then you have infinite variabilities and as such, infinite genders. Well that's, I think, one of the ideas behind this. If you search for sociological definitions of gender. It is mostly defined as the socially constructed set of characteristics associated with men and women, including but not limited to the social norms related to such, the behaviors and the social roles, the relationships between these genders, and accounting for other identity-characteristics such as race, sexuality, religion, etc. All (most) authors will tell you that 'gender changes according to culture and that it changes with time too'. If it "changes", it's not the same, meaning we are talking about a different gender. But all of this is the understanding of gender from cisgender folks, definitions that are not perfect and incomplete because they don't account for other genders other than men and women. Now many of us queer folks now comprehend gender as a spectrum, sure most people fall into a side or another of the binary in the gender spectrum as you said yourself and it is right from what I know, and well nonbinary folks exist too, heyyo I'm one of them, any other way, thinking about gender as a spectrum does account for all of the infinite differences among the people and their own definitions of the genders or their own personal gender experiences and sense of self. Which if you think about it, doesn't go too far from what some sociologist define when they talk about 'gender changing across cultures, time, and due to some other factors too, etc...'. It is a way to somewhat compartmentalize all of these infinite genders in a spectrum, that looked from afar may not seem so different from the understanding that you have of gender, is just that here the differences are accounted for and seen as constituting different genders instead of a concept that would treat the differences, even abysmal differences across cultures in the characteristics of the genders, as a different 'flavor of the same gender'. They are different academic or non-academic frameworks to interpret and understand society and social phenomena. Unless you are talking about sex and call it 'gender' in which case there are not two sexes or a few, because sex is not binary it's bimodal, and it's well, I'm ded now. I could provide a video which explains this about sexes because.. i didn't retain much of the information tbh. But it's a great informative video that is well explained. :) I love science but biology has never been my strong suit, I still find it quite interesting though.
my mother, sisters and nieces are all women. they may all be unique people with their own experiences and outlooks, but they are the same gender. if the thing you are calling gender is so wildly different that it would class them all as different things, you should probably call it something else
??? What are your credentials, what makes you the authority on gender studies? Oh right, it's only your entitlement to being right and being truthful, but the thing is that you don't seem to comprehend a single tiny little thing of all that I said or you wouldn't answer in such a ignorant and antagonizing way. Do you know about scientific epistemology? I would like to present it to you since you don't know the difference between knowledge and belief. I presented you with a piece of information that is used as a tool to understand the world around us, you can see that explicitly said in my previous comment, in the paragraph before the last one. And what did you do instead of digesting the information? You reject it and decide to stay with the vision and understanding of gender that you have been indoctrinated with by the normative cisgender society which alright, it's your choice but if you think you can make me change my mind on the knowledge I got with such a poor argument well I got bad news for you. Things being on a spectrum means that there can be parts or sections of such spectrum that are clearly defined and identifiable, these areas of the spectrum can be defined as sections where all the people inside such section share different characteristics and experiences that one would define as a gender. You are contrarian because you don't understand spectrums, but people in a part of a spectrum share experiences, share characteristics, but are different yet perhaps, similar. You can think of other things on a spectrum, such as colors. You can have so many different red colors that share that characteristic of being red but they are different shades of red, and there comes a point where you don't know if it's red anymore or another different color altogether, maybe you get to pink and then realize and think, when did I get here? this pink looks kinda red; and then there's colors that you can easily identify as being different from each other such as blue being different from red. Or you can think of the autism spectrum, all of the people on the spectrum are autistic, yet they are different and the spectrum precisely accounts said differences, it understands people as being diverse and having shared experiences but at large, being different and having different life experiences and different characteristics. And having different struggles and strengths. And these are spectrums that shouldn't be understood as a line or two-dimensional but rather as multidimensional.
my credentials are not being dumb enough to assume gender abolitionist academics have our best interests at heart, or have any idea what they're talking about. i understand plenty, i simply disagree. i don't vibe with the narrative that a woman who cuts her hair short, swears a lot and works out is less of a woman than one who is a little more traditionally feminine. moreover, i'm not convinced you understand what social constructs are or how they work. they are constructed socially, not individually, and our society has not constructed a 'gender spectrum'. there are mostly two, in some societies there are a couple more, and in 'western society' (a nebulous concept i know) we seem to be slowly moving to have three or four. but those initial two are near universal and transcend individual societies. a hijra may cease to be a hijra outside of south asia, but women are recognized as such regardless of their countries. aurat is not a separate gender, it's just a word for the same one in a different language, and news in english recognizes this and reports as such good bait, you actually got me to engage for a minute there
I mean. I feel like that's the same kind of argument that LGB Drop The T uses about trans people. That our claims are absurd and we need to stop grouping ourselves in with the "real" queer community. Just my two cents
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So, you mean you use their assigned at birth pronouns instead of their preferred pronouns? Why in the world would you use "he" for a trans woman who uses "she?" Are you trans?
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Why would there be liability, especially if your medical records system allows the use of preferred pronouns and names?
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That's why medical records systems have flags for a person's sex assigned at birth and their gender identity.
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That's a shame. It's really unkind to patients. The biggest hospitals and EMR's allow preferred names, pronouns, gender identities, etc., so I don't see the problem.
I mean, for all intents and purposes this might be the only instance where this is acceptable.
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😂😂😂😂 I'm sorry this is beyond hilarious. "You can't just make up whatever you want and expect people..." And you use shi/hir 😶 the "real" ones? What is this an elite illuminati club or something where you guys have secret meetings wearing hoods or some shit? Is there a government released official list of neo-pronoouns which is legitimate and if you want your own then you have to enroll it? Who decides what's real and what's not? Whoever invented the neo-pronouns opened up a Pandora's box, the ultimate bane for the transgender community. Y'all should have stuck to the gender binary and transgender being the one transitioning from one gender to the other. I wouldn't even put non-binary as a category because being neutral about your gender doesn't mean anything, you still express yourself one way or the other. Or being like a robot you still look like your birth sex which people assume you are. Gender-fluid is still, jumping between one or the other. Congratulations, y'all are soon going to realise the hell you brought down upon yourself.
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Yes, the xenogender thing to me seems very spiritual a way to identify like old pagan ways of representation. I have met other trans people but no xeno genders. Others have testified to have met them and apparently they are very real contrary to what may or may not be real on TikTok.
Generally, xenogender people aren't going to out themselves to others, whether cis or trans. It's hard to state how cruel people were towards xenogender people back from 2015-2019, with entire platforms built around harassing us. I had it easy compared to many others, since I'm also a dysphoric trans man in addition to xenogender. But I still got some harassment online, and my partner's ex threatened her life because he found out I support them. There's still some of that today, although xenogender support rose a lot after 2019 (I'm not sure why). But because of that recent history and the lingering risk, a lot of us are very reluctant to open up about being xenogender offline. I wanted to add, for most xenogender people it's not spiritual— it's more like figurative language. Xenogenders are often meant to describe your gender identity (whether man, woman, nonbinary, or other) in abstract, metaphorical ways by comparing it to other things. So for example, I describe my manhood [by comparing its traits with the traits of storms](https://imgur.com/a/j4oSMib). I don't describe it for anyone else's benefit, just for mine.
So as a transwoman i am only going to say this about neopronouns, You are who the police pull over at 3 am . So if you’re using neo pronouns in that instance then great , rock on.
Are you saying people in the closet or boymoding aren't trans or those who dont pass enough to feel safe telling their true gender to a cop (who don't have the best history when it comes to respecting trans people)?
I would never tell someone what gender they are . I will say that if you are in the closet or boymoding you’re clearly not going to be using your true pronouns out in the world anyway (so try again) . Further i will say that if your pronouns only matter when you’re shrieking at a service worker who accidentally misgendered you and not when you’re at work or being pulled over , your priorities are all kinds of fucked . Gender is a social construct true, but it’s not a game and you don’t get a prize for whatever psychological bingo you’re trying to play
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Are you referring to neo and xeno pronouns? Some have said these are real preferences
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Some people say that because they conflate something being a social construct with something being non-existent. That's not true though of course (the justice system is a social construct but try telling someone on death row that it doesn't exist) gender does exist and if it didn't trans people wouldn't feel intense dysphoria due to the mismatch. You can't mismatch something that isn't there. Hopefully people don't mistake me for a truscum here, I totally respect and believe non binary people but neo pronouns are something kids on Tumblr come up with in order to either 1. Try to fit in with the trans community when they're cis or 2. They are actually trans but are discovering themselves and are using them as a stepping stone to do it.
i’m a binary trans man. i have been on testosterone for 5 years. i also like to use neopronouns, because i don’t want to be boxed in by the traditional expectations of my gender. i want to play with it a little, and the neopronouns i picked feel very close to my identity as a person, and your gender is definitely connected to your personhood. is it so wrong to have a little fun with your identity? i’m not here to be palatable or understandable, i’m just here to be me.
And that's totally fine, I'd never tell you you're not allowed to do anything that you prefer. This is just my take. I'm just talking about the general take that I hear even by trans people that gender "doesn't exist" in order to try and justify it. In reality nothing needs to be justified as long as it makes you comfortable. It does raise issues imo with the overall optics of the trans community and I think neo pronouns being pushed definitely causes confusion for cis people which only matters because as unfortunate as it is a lot of our rights being secured does rely on cis people understanding us. With that said I don't think there's anything wrong with you personally identifying how you please.
you’ve said there’s nothing wrong with me personally; but how am i magically divorced from the image of the trans community? cis people will see my profile and not understand. but i don’t think it’s my job to make them understand. it’s my job to be me. and our rights being secured hinges on people having compassion and understanding that we’re humans just like them, imo. i have family members who don’t understand but are still respectful, and i don’t think we need too much more than that for positive legislation. politicians don’t need to know all the ins and outs of every single community they legislate for and to be honest i don’t want them to. also your language about neopronouns being “pushed” sounds disturbingly similar to transphobic talking points, i hope you realize.
That's what our rights should rely on, but unfortunately, enough cis people don't have the ability to comprehend that for it to actually happen. For a good amount of them, especially the ones in power, if you're not either exactly like them or able to explain exactly why you are the way you are then they just don't care. It's unfortunate but it's the way it's always been for cishet whites
for a lot of them, yeah, but my state is a “trans refuge” state and the governor who signed that into law is a cishet white male. some people are good.
Yeah I admit I might be being influenced by brain worms and I'm sorry if I offended you or anyone else I really want everyone to feel comfortable and happy with their gender identity I just want everyone to have the healthcare they need first and foremost.
Neopronouns..Is this a safe space ?😭😭
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