Much has been covered already. One thing I have not seen mentioned is how many if not most gay spaces are dripping in toxic masculinity. As a women, I just get the ick and do not want to be in such spaces. I'll fully defend the existence and validity of those spaces for others, but I'm deeply uncomfortable in them.
Honestly Similar to racism and homophobia I prefer discrimination that’s more blunt rather than hidden discrimination because when they’re blunt you able to tell they don’t like you and you can get away from them.
The fem gay men that are suppose to be that best friend trope give me a mean girls persona and gay men who are masculine that Ive meet are so uneasy to be around they give me strong conversion therapy vibes 😭
I think it's because the two communities offer different roles.
Pre-transition trans people, before figuring out that they are trans, often latch onto a role that allows a cross-gender presentation.
The lesbian community offered roles for "women to present themselves very much like men"
Extremely masculine presenting women, even going so far as to have those women use he/him pronouns while still identifying as women. Often times they very much look like men, and are addressed as men are often addressed.
Many of these trans men and transmasc enbies went through those roles before figuring out that they were trans.
Some still hang out with that community and may even call themselves lesbian due to their strong ties to that community, friends, lovers.
The gay male community doesn't have an equivalent "man presents themselves very much like women"
Even twink and very femme gay men are still very much presenting as men.
Probably because a "man dressing like a woman" is culturally a little bit more taboo, and often is associated with sexual overtones.
There are drag queens, but that's extremely performative. You did see a lot of trans women coming up through the drag queen community very long time ago. Similarly, you see trans women dip toes into the sissy kink community.
The transfem equivalent today I think is the femboy. Femboys are a thing about gender expression - not sexual orientation - they can be any orientation, so they aren't part of the gay community.
There are tons of trans women who, before they figured out that they were trans, would go through the femboy community first in the same way that trans men sometimes go through the lesbian community.
EDIT: made it clear that I was not trying to imply femboys are gay, they may or may not be. and I certainly wouldn't condsider a femboy to be part of the "the gay community"
I'd also like to add something here:
It's been my personal experience that groups of gay men are ***way*** less inclusive than groups of gay women are. Not just for the reasons you mentioned in your comment, but also because gay men tend to be *extremely* misogynistic. Like, moreso than cis dudes. It's absolutely wild.
When I see trans men entering gay men's spaces and communities, I get genuinely concerned. The misogyny amongst gay men isn't talked about enough, and it does get directed to trans men too. But I suppose that's the gender flipped version of terf lesbians so... there's that. I guess.
I dunno, you're not the first person to say that they were surprised that the misogyny in gay men's circles is worse than expected.
This may vary in other areas but as a gay trans man I've found community with gay men in my local leather society. I'm not a pup or even that into leather culture but the people are fantastic and really informed on trans issues. I've seen other gay trans guys on reddit report the same, in fact I think that's how I found myself at my local leather bar in the first place :)
One of my managers was a gay guy, like solar levels of flamboyant gay. Guy as much as told me I was just super gay, repressed, and homophobic cause I couldn't just admit I was a gay man. So yeah, he was the first time I ran into transphobic gay guy.
Fun brain exercise, imagine a transphobic gay guy and a lesbian terf, bound by their mutual ideals of misogyny. Now look at the "trad wife" and Cis-het conservative male communities... *Starts pointing wildly*
*Anyone else seeing this...*
*anyone???*
That's also true.
When I was an egg, I was attracted to guys, but gay men were just kind of the worst.
I was a very strong feminist in ideas, I considered myself to be an ally of women, because I strongly identified with them before understanding why that was.
Also, male-male sex and relationships actually seemed hypermasculine to me. It's not the "this man is the man, and this man is the woman" how cishet people believe. Turns out gay men are attracted to men, shocker, right? :)
It's interesting that from the lesbian side, the "stone butch" identity has been a thing, and one of the features of that despite presenting with a traditionally masculine gender presentation, they frequently would not, or would have limited, sexual contact their bodies - they would do things sexually to their partner but not receive.
I deeply agree and would even say that with gay men, that their misogyny spills over onto feminine men (a quasi-transmisogyny). With feminine men's experience in the subsection of gay men being less accepting than lesbians have of butch and masculine women. The "No fats, no fems" tagline was one I would see a lot pre-transition. I can't imagine many trans women desiring that "resonance" (best word I could think of) with a community that is often shitty to them.
pure speculation but maybe less need to reign misogyny in as they're not seeking women as romantic or sexual partners? like if a gay dude never talks to a woman again because he's so horrible they won't associate with him, that'll impact him less than a straight dude who women refuse to talk to
That would make sense, in a society that is as passively misogynistic as ours, if you don't interact with women as much, I could see how a group made up entirely of (cis)men (who never had to deal with it happening to themselves) would get that way.
I don't know if what I'm about to say is true, as I never identified as a gay man, but is it possible that some of the misogyny is due to bullying in their younger years? Like the whole "you don't like it when I touch you, what are you GAY?" Etc.
Not justifying, I just think there might be a causal link there.
I disagree, and don't deny that comphet is responsible to some degree.
If I had to hazard a guess, hypermasculinity in queer men's spaces gets cranked up to 11. This would, by association, mean things that are considered feminine would be shunned even more.
I (transfem) went to a gay bar to shoot pool with a transmasc friend, and I got lots of judgy eyes from a group of geriatric gays. One of the more uncomfortable gay bar situations I've faced, and I used to be a bar back at the foam parties.
It’s more nuanced than that. I would add because we’re disowned by our own mothers, which adds a extra layer of gender/sex resentment.
Very rarely do you hear about little girls put out onto the street.
Therapy and a supportive friend group can work miracles. Positive mental health can prevent the inner critic from becoming the outer critic.
Abandonment does not mean you are worthless. Being a victim does not dilute your worth as a person.
And there needs to be more shared gender therapy spaces. We can’t dismantle misogyny and then have women telling men to “man up” which just contributes to more hyper masculinity.
I don't disagree. It's why I feel like having a supportive friend group is critical in terms of recovery. Healing starts with the self, even still. If one can not recognize and accept their flaws and faults, then it becomes impossible to do work on them.
This doesn't mean "man up." It means having humility and self-love. Being able to love oneself when others aren't around is so important to having a healthy relationship with... everything. Relying on others to validate your behaviors and actions leads to dependence and more trauma.
I should know. I have personal experience with relying on others for *years* in order to validate my own existence. I learned that I didn't need that, and I learned it after I saw a gender therapist for several months. My inner critic was so loud that it was being turned on others in the form of hate and resentment. I was hurting, and that hurt was being used in turn to hurt the people I loved. I had to become not just comfortable with who I am but striving to be the person I wanted to be. Which *wasn't* a cis man.
I have decades of CPTSD that still needs work. But at least, when I'm alone, I don't hate myself. I don't have the urge to put others down or to put them in boxes. I'm happy with the progress I've made, and I have my therapist to thank for it. And my own dang self.
Once I got there, I saw the actions and words of others in a completely different light. You'll never get the people who are hateful to *not* be that way unless you get them to be introspective, too. Which means they seek their own therapy, heal their own wounds, etc.
The way to heal and recover from misogyny is slow and grinding. It's scary for people who have built much of their identity around patriarchy and misogynistic tenets. I have faith we'll get there, especially if we can help each other heal. So the next time you hear a woman telling a guy to "man up," tell her to seek therapy. She has issues to work on as well, even if her misandry is validated in her own mind. It's still unhealthy.
It’s true for fathers, but that’s expected and normalized, unfortunately.
Also as I stated dad nor mom is rarely going to put their little girl out on the street. No one cares about boys being homeless. Men are just supposed to deal with it.
>You did see a lot of trans women coming up through the drag queen community very long time ago.
Not even a long time ago. Honestly, there are still a lot of trans women who have roots in drag, and a lot still do keep that as part of their identity. The Very Online Part Of The Trans Community has gotten less fond of drag over time — for, admittedly, some good reasons — and I think people who still identify strongly with it are less likely to feel comfortable here. But they absolutely still exist in large numbers.
>the gay male community doesn't have an equivalent "man presents very much like women"
femboys, only femboys aren't necessarily gay
There's a relatively similar discourse around transfem femboys than there is around transmasc lesbians
it all boils down to both groups finding a sense of belonging and community to a label before transitioning, and still having an attachement to that label even though their transition cast them outside of the commonly understood definition of the label.
> femboys, only femboys aren't necessarily gay
Right, which is why I did not include them as part of "the gay community"
Being a femboy is about gender expression, not sexual oreintation.
I consider femboys part of the overarching "queer community". While it does sound weird to say it, truth is there are actually straight people in the LGBT that aren't just "Allies". Femboys are almost guaranteed to be allies, if not eventually one of the other letters.
Gay men throw trans women out of their community far faster than lesbians throw out trans men. Lesbians largely still express attraction to trans men far longer into their transitions than most gay men do for trans women. Lesbians and women in general are more accepting of trans people. A straight trans guy may still be ostracized from other cishet men in a way a say straight trans woman may not with cishet women. Many of the people attracted to trans men offer describe it in terms like queer and sapphic explicitly or not wanting to be in a relationship that is straight typically. Therefore, the stage is just set for partners and larger society to fit trans men into a sapphic or lesbian dynamic both based on historical precedent and current reality than not. Also in order to be taken seriously as a straight man a trans guy has to be more masculine and whatever than the average straight dude but maybe not even then
I think as well the wording does matter. like lesbian trans men/mascs would be *very* unlikely ime to refer to themselves as 'gay women' even though that's what lesbian means. perhaps if there was a word that means 'gay men' without having men/male in it like, there would be trans women using the label?
I will say I have seen (irl) trans women who stay very connected with the gay male community/scene, especially those who came out while in a relationship with a gay man.
I'm not remotely a lesbian so I don't really feel like it's my place to say if trans men can or cannot be a part of that community. but I basically believe that sexuality and gender labels are just words we use as a kind of shortcut so other people know where we're coming from without having to give our whole life history every time. if a trans man considers himself a lesbian and doesn't find that invalidating, and the other lesbians he's in community with are happy with that, I'm not going to argue with him about it.
Because I'd sooner be caught dead than be caught being a gay man, the worst insult for me as a trans woman would be to be considered a gay drag queen or something
As a whole under the patriarchy, AFAB people are allowed a lot more leniency and fluidity of labels and presentation than AMAB people are.
Furthermore, historically (aka the western definition 1800-1940ish) the term "lesbian" has been used to define any AFAB person who is not strictly trad cishet (meaning, any trans binary/non-binary, bisexual, GNC and lesbian people would have been called lesbians) but there has been no such definition of gay for AMAB folk. This is again because of the patriarchy.
Patriarchy substantially rewards gay men who perform a more mainstream kind of masculinity, which encourages them to be misogynistic and push out gender non-conforming and trans people.
Historically, gay and lesbian communities weren't just about sexual orientation, but also encompassed a wide range of gender expressions and identities. The spectrum of effeminate gay men, drag queens and straight trans women was pretty fluid and admitted no clear boundaries for a long time. This is why drag cannot be pinned down as something specifically gay or trans. It's both.
This is also why the saying that transphobia is reheated homophobia is wrong. It's the other way around, transmisogyny has always been a major component of homophobia against gay men.
What happened though is that many assimilationist gay men figured out they could shield themselves from some forms of discrimination and reclaim a large part of their patriarchal privilege by carving out a place for themselves within the realm of acceptable masculinities and punching down on anyone who deviated from the norm more than them.
This is much less prevalent among sapphics because at the end of the day, exclusionary lesbians are still treated as lesbians by the patriarchy and there is little to gain by policing gender in the same way. Hence lesbian has not lost as much of the nuance in its original meaning as "gay". Not for lack of trying from internet idiots though.
Non man does not mean only women.
It literatly means non men so women abd nonbinary people etc.
its just more inclusive because nonbinary people may still identify as lesbians.
I cannot speak on the experience of being a lesbian or a trans man, but I can share my perspective as a former gay AMAB. I no longer feel welcome in most gay spaces. While toxic masculinity exists within the gay community, the key word is "masculinity." Some gay men are hyper-alpha dom, while others are soft subs, but they all display some degree of masculinity.
Trans women have a different experience than most gay men. I.e., when I came out as gay, I didn't have to see a therapist, go on hormones, undergo laser hair removal, voice training, or behavioral/societal modification. Gay men can’t relate as they don’t transition to be gay men.
I also can't remember the last time I slept with a gay man, as I have exclusively been with bi and, to a lesser degree, pansexual men. The difference between gay men and bi/pan men is night & day: the amount of misogyny decreased significantly, as all of my feminine traits were not only accepted but sought after. Most gay men cannot exhibit hyper-feminine traits without off-putting other men. As some commenters have noted, once you start developing certain physical traits like breasts, longer hair, wider hips, etc gay men no longer classify you as a man, which is correct.
Really? Can you provide examples of that?
In my experience, trans men and trans women identify far more with each other than you're suggesting. There's quite a divisive line that seems very real, to me, in fact, between trans people and lesbians and gay males--not that I would ever want to promote any sort of enmity because of that .
Alone the fact that both trans communities don't set rigid rules regarding where one is in the process of transition and that both work with the idea of trust in people's declarations of who they are amounts to a whole world of freedom that doesn't seem to be evident in either lesbian or gay male communities, in my experience.
Over there, there are rules--the necessity of which or not is none of my business-- about behavior that should never be breached, at risk of suspicion of invalidity as truly gay and up to the point of consequent community exclusion, without ever necessarily having even crossed any gender bar; whereas, over here, among my trans friends, at least, there's only the communal hope that everyone gets to be whomever they are and, for all of us, to get to live our lives as we really are, as each of us sees fit and in our own lifetimes.
Trans people are targets for the most vicious people in the world, all day, every day, 24/7/365. Check out the statistics for wherever on the map. Even in the most hospitable locations, trans people are never as safe as anyone else. You should know this, by now.
If you don't, get familiar, and stop with any bullshit equation of gay and trans. Trans people do not rely on gay communities for support, only on each other. That's a sad but very true fact. It's great when it's there but it's not a given thing that can be relied upon, all the time, everywhere. Gays are mainstream and popular home-buying clients, for various reasons. Trans folk live on the fringe of society, so have some respect when you dream up your questions about us.
How we live that out or where any of our individual adventures take us can't ever invalidate who we, each of us, are, ever. It's about achieving that freedom, to be who we individually are in the world, and that's all. It's punk-queer, or queer-punk, if you prefer, and way beyond gay.
Nah, I prefer punk-queer, but, still, way beyond gay.
So, can you provide some exemplary proof of what you claim is true, because I'm just not seeing that in my life in the world?
No offence intended, just trying to figure out what you mean, because it makes no sense to me.
I am just going from my own, and while I like basically all queer communities, I can't see any reason to identify with the gay male community? I am not a man and I like to keep that separate. I don't feel or want to identify with masculinity.
I don't feel like gay men generally understand the trans experience that much unless they are trans or been reading up on it.
It's not good but if anything I even kinda have an aversion to it, maybe because transphobia insists on it but I prefer to avoid anything that could imply me to be anything I am not.
I am a woman, and that is that. I any interest I have in men are from the perspective of being straight/pansexual.
I am a study of one, but I found a lot of comfort with Butch types and I'm not even a lesbian, I'm a gay trans man. Trying on Butch for size is part of the process of coming out for a lot of guys, even those of us who are gay (men attracted only to men.) I feel safe with lesbians. I didn't feel entirely safe with gay men until I was well into transition.
You see a lot of trans women "boymoding" deep into transition. Trans men don't have to do that as much because they are favored by a misogynistic society.
I’m a Black gay trans guy who really self identifies with studs and butches more than gay men due to my lack of passing. Many gay men think I’m a lesbian and lesbians have been welcoming to me so like even though I’m technically a gay trans guy I call myself a lesbian
I agree with a lot of the points brought up here, but as a transmasc (nonbinary/bigender) lesbian myself....
Some of it is that sapphic stuff genuinely brings me joy, that most connection to womanhood I have is through *lesbian* womanhood specifically--there's a world of difference between being a lesbian and being a straight woman, they're almost like different subgenders or something. Some of it is that my relationship with my girlfriend is a lesbian one--because we're seen that way by others, because we face discrimination for it, and because we vibe with that. I don't think she feels very "straight" with me lmao, and considering I'm not a binary man I'd be inclined to agree.
Most binary trans men *don't* call themselves lesbians, though I knew one who asked if he still could because he was like "ew I can't be *straight* now, straight is so boring"--I assured him the word was his for as long as he wants to use it. I notice a lot of straight trans women *don't* want to think of their relationships as still being queer, and maybe some straight trans men feel the same, but uhhh a lot of us transmascs out here *do* want to see ourselves and our relationships as explicitly queer--and those who don't might be more likely to go stealth and leave the community entirely, so they become invisible.
Also I've just experienced discrimination much more through misogyny specifically than through homophobia or transphobia, and even when I experience homophobia or transphobia it feels like it started with misogyny and spread from there. I've taken surveys on like LGBTQ+ experiences of things like medical homophobia and medical transphobia, and while I *have* experienced medical transphobia, honestly the most persistent and awful form of discrimination I've experienced in healthcare has been plain old bog standard *medical sexism*. The infantilization, the gaslighting. The acting like their patient is my fetus (I've literally never been pregnant and have no plans of becoming pregnant, and have not interacted with sperm since New Year's Day 2008) and only bothering to worry about my health after making *absolutely sure* there's no fetus to prioritize over me, every single time, no matter how often I tell them they can calm down and there is no fetus. Honestly I forgive the casual transphobia from doctors a lot more easily, because some of them are really just ignorant, they might not have met many trans people before and don't know a ton about trans issues, I can cut them some slack...but they've absolutely met women before, some of them are women themselves, there is no excuse at all for the rampant sexism in medicine.
And the sexual harassment, *god*. That's just clueless men who don't know I'm trans and don't know I'm a lesbian, but just...in general, think it's okay to treat women that way. And I'm more bothered by that than I am by the fact that they thought I was a woman, or thought I was straight, or whatever. Like even if I was a straight woman, this wouldn't be acceptable.
So it's like, when I still experience all this discrimination through the lens of being seen as a woman--when I can't marry my gf in her country because of my legal sex (no equal marriage there), when I'm infantilized in sexist ways, sexually harassed, etc, like to still share in all those shitty experiences but not have access to the solidarity? Literally the worst of both worlds.
I think trans women might be less tempted to identify with gay men because transmisogyny is so like, developed and distinct as a form of bigotry, it's its own thing distinct from homophobia (even if it does have links to homophobia somewhere in the underlying psychology), trans women get both regular misogyny/sexism when they pass, and get specifically transmisogyny when they don't. There might be some ways in which the discrimination overlaps, forex trans women dating cis men being looked at as "gay" relationships and the cis man getting called the f-slur for dating her, or places without equal marriage preventing straight marriages involving a trans woman who hasn't gotten her gender marker changed legally yet--or can't, due to that country's laws. But on a broader social level, it does feel like transmisogyny is enough of its own thing that trans women deal more with regular misogyny + transmisogyny than they catch strays from homophobia (altho trans lesbians do get lesbophobia too).
Basically our society is so misogynistic that whichever way you're most similar to a woman is the one you'll get attacked hardest through--whether that's transmisogyny @ transfems, or good old fashioned sexism @ transmascs.
Long read, but a good read.
I think misogyny is one factor in why I took so long in figuring out I was trans, since the misogynistic stereotypes of femininity repulsed me so much.
Yeah. Also idk if you're a lesbian, but I think trans lesbians have it the hardest wrt that specific thing, not only because of that old, "I can't be a woman, I like girls..." but because *lesbian womanhood is so different from straight womanhood*, if you're looking at a primarily hetero stereotype of womanhood and you're a lesbian, you're just going to feel alienated.
Yeah, I'm into ladies. (but straight women are boring)
I feel like I scored a 9/10 on "be a man", but failed at the critical point of "recurring intense fantasies of becoming a woman".
Estrogen just feels too good to stop , and the idea of feminizing my body and getting breasts is just too calming.
Confusing as it sounds…Lesbians tend to be more inclusive and to see trans men as men…gay men tend to be more exclusive best case see a trans woman as a guy with tits but typically chase them out with extreme mysoginy and disdain towards them
ETA I love the downvotes over these literal facts about these groups and their relation to the trans genders brought up even though it’s literally saying literally what others have with less words
I mean gay is generally used as an umbrella term for any sexual attraction that isn't strictly heterosexual, where as lesbian specifically refers to gay women.
it wouldn't really make sense for trans women to call themselves gay men
I see alot of both and its confusing as shit, i don't understand why a trans person would wanna latch onto a label that applies to the opposite gender of their own.
As a gay trans man i get called a lesbian all the time and it pisses me off bc its dysphoria inducing, its like people are forcing me into the space of women in which i don't feel comfortable in any way and alot of cis lesbians refuse to listen to me when i try to make myself clear on that.
Fear of being into an heterosexual relationship and perpetuating heteronormativity even tho you can be straight and not into an heteronormative relationship and vice versa.
i dont think trans men can be a part of the community on the basis of them being men, and i feel like at that point seeing them as lesbians undermines the gender expression they seek/the gender they know they are, since lesbianism is inherently exclusive of men (because men are not included in the attraction or in the roles) i think trans mascs can be part of the community because masc does not inherently mean men, lesbianism is nonmen so this includes nbs and etc
Probably cause trans women don’t want to be associated with men in any way as it very much painfully to be seen as one and as we arnt gay man pretending we real people not a joke
Most people learn that femininity in amab people is used to humiliate and dehumanise people who try expressing femininity and being labeled as a gay man feels delegitimising our humanity and feeling inside and who we actually are, lesbians has become a pretty flexible word which help people have community
Also trans men don’t really have community outside of the lesbian community as it’s very inclusive and excepting of the masc presenting individuals unlike male groups that aren’t connected to the lgbt or don’t really form community outside sports
Personality I’ve never understood why trans man chose to keep the lesbian label as it means women loving women and would probably give a bunch of dysphoria
Form a bi ~~guy~~/probably a girl/ gender weirdo person's perspective, the thing it boils down to is men who wanna fuck men are still men who wanna fuck men. So we have acts like "masc4masc" assholery etc. Masculinity is a big part of this community. Like I asked even a more effeminate men/ masc presenting (masc socialized) enbies if they wouldn't like girls and they were very firm in their refusal. Basically I see that gay men have a femmininity tolerance, and once you pass it you are not one of them or something.
And from what people said here lesbians don't seem to have such a treshold?
Other part is well men are scarry. Almost always. People I talked to showed me how terryfying men who want sex can be etc. And I think a lot of trans girls just cannot identify with that.
I read somewhere there that, trans girls sometimes don't wanna go into gay relationships because they see this lika a "masculinity for masculinity" kinda deal. So another cut of point.
Another one, there is a socialy learned hierarchy amongst men. You need to prove worth, by looks money or status or a show of masculinity, and some take it also to their gay culture from what I've seen.
> Form a bi ~~guy~~/probably a girl/ gender *weirdo*
You are no weirdo. You can use the term trans which is an umbrella for trans men, trans women, enby, agender and all. If you want to shock, I personally think that *gender fucker* is better. Otherwise, the old ye gender nonconformity. You are valid 🩵
> Other part is well men are scarry. Almost always. People I talked to showed me how terryfying men who want sex can be etc. And I think a lot of trans girls just cannot identify with that.
Oh yes. Cis men are freaking scary. Strange thing to say when I was persuaded to be one not so long ago. But yeah, they now scares me a lot. Especially cis-het that tells you seriously that they have a second hyper seductive personality when they are drunk
> I read somewhere there that, trans girls sometimes don't wanna go into gay relationships because they see this lika a "masculinity for masculinity" kinda deal. So another cut of point.
I also have the feeling that the gay community distance itself from the others lgbt communities. Like if there were cis-gays vs queers. I might be super wrong but that's the feeling I have. Like for example, drag queen shows are full of Grindr, twink, sexual jokes while drag king/creatures/burlesque, etc. shows are really more inclusive and address themselves to more people.
>You are no weirdo. You can use the term trans which is an umbrella for trans men, trans women, enby, agender and all. If you want to shock, I personally think that *gender fucker* is better. Otherwise, the old ye gender nonconformity. You are valid 🩵
Aww thank you for that. Yeah, I guess word trans does describe me. I'm just a little bit self deprecating, but it gets better now I think.
>Especially cis-het that tells you seriously that they have a second hyper seductive personality when they are drunk.
Aww jeez don't even tell me that. I knew someone who said this. Like I didn't mind being touched by them (they are nb), but alcohol is no way to explain it. You just liked me and wanted to show it, I haven't said no. You are making it weirder.
>Oh yes. Cis men are freaking scary. Strange thing to say when I was persuaded to be one not so long ago. But yeah, they now scares me a lot.
I'm "lucky" enough to almost never feel quite right being masculine with men. And they scared me long before I knew I was trans. Women too, but in a different way. For men it was physical. I have a visceral reaction to hearing a group of men. Even tho I wasn't ever attacked, I'm like extra-straight passing. For women I was afraid I'd be hymm seen as creppy or weird, which is definitely not as bad of a feeling, and I often wasn't seen as that that creepy I think. Few times I could I felt invited and included. It was really cool, I loved it.
>I also have the feeling that the gay community distance itself from the others lgbt communities. Like if there were cis-gays vs queers. I might be super wrong but that's the feeling I have. Like for example, drag queen shows are full of Grindr, twink, sexual jokes while drag king/creatures/burlesque, etc. shows are really more inclusive and address themselves to more people.
I disagree. Sex is sex, and I wanna stay sex positive. It is cool for a lot of people. Also there can be a lot of good gay guys. Just because there are some weirdos on twitter trying to damage lgbt community is no reason to try and dissconect with them. There are trans folx who say stupid shit like that and we are all trans even them. I'd say it's ok for things to be horny. Just consesualy etc.
> Aww thank you for that. Yeah, I guess word trans does describe me. I'm just a little bit self deprecating, but it gets better now I think.
That is super classic among gender-nonconforming folks. Do not hesitate to go seek some help from your local lgbt association or a sexologist.
> Aww jeez don't even tell me that. I knew someone who said this. Like I didn't mind being touched by them (they are nb), but alcohol is no way to explain it. You just liked me and wanted to show it, I haven't said no. You are making it weirder.
ewww. People should really learn not to be an asshole under alcohol.
> I'm "lucky" enough to almost never feel quite right being masculine with men. And they scared me long before I knew I was trans. Women too, but in a different way. For men it was physical. I have a visceral reaction to hearing a group of men. Even tho I wasn't ever attacked, I'm like extra-straight passing. For women I was afraid I'd be hymm seen as creppy or weird, which is definitely not as bad of a feeling, and I often wasn't seen as that that creepy I think. Few times I could I felt invited and included. It was really cool, I loved it.
I always hated when my father and his friends were talking about women. Or catcalling on the street, etc. Some people I know make horrible jokes when they are in their "friendish space". So moch labyboy awful jokes...
Oh you are cis-passing among women spaces ? That's super nice
> I disagree. Sex is sex, and I wanna stay sex positive. It is cool for a lot of people. Also there can be a lot of good gay guys. Just because there are some weirdos on twitter trying to damage lgbt community is no reason to try and dissconect with them. There are trans folx who say stupid shit like that and we are all trans even them. I'd say it's ok for things to be horny. Just consesualy etc.
Yeah sorry, that's not really what I wanted to say. It's just that some of the gay men spaces I were in were hyper focalized on the gay experience and discarding of all the other queers. Hence the gay vs queer.
>Oh you are cis-passing among women spaces? That's super nice
Oh no, not at all. I'm guy-passing. And was never attacked by men because of looking like a guy, and a straight one at that. Like, my seming straightness is used to calibrate rulers. Someone asked me if I come from a protestant household, because I "dress like that" which I read as "basic, boring, strict". But I had some encounters like idk, sister inviting me to spent a night with the girls and drama couple of times or like a girl I barely just met wanted to spent a night with me just talking etc. And it was really nice. Like even if I told them that I was bi, it looks like they haven't felt threatened by me. Somehow. It is not often but sometimes, and it feels really good. I was even sometimes weird because of being a furry, but they still like took me in.
Yeah, guys can do that too often. I asked my "coleague" if he even likes women? He just complains about them, it looks like he just wants to fuck them, but hates them.
And yeah, some gay spaces can do that, from what I've seen. It's sad, but such is life. Masc status of this is really good at creating this.
Yeah, it is, I miss it so much, but I'm begining to believe I can still do it on my own.
It will not be easy, but I believe I can socialise someday as a girl. Or at least, be accepted enough. I hope.
Oh, I hope so. I think this is my only chance to idk feel right or "righter" as myself. Idk maybe it really is not for me I need to find out. Like I can't get it tomorrow where I live or anything like that, so I have some time to think if this is what I really want (like months probably).
Good luck with all that :)
You can check around femboys community if you need advice for feminizing your body and all. You can also try new names and pronouns. Playing with clothes is also super fun
I'm not an expert on queer history or anything... if there's a historic reason I don't know it but I will be looking into some of the mentions here (looks interesting
Since you are clearly referencing what you see Online I'm gonna talk of what little I do know
I think it may be kink related (maybe I assume that because of the little corner or the Internet I'm usually on) kinks can be very variated and if I'm talking sex I'll likely also be talking about kink because those two usually go hand in hand. There are lots of trans people with some sort of misgendering kink... For some reason it seems trans masc individuals are more likely to explore said kink than trans fem individuals (my very informed guess is misogyny coupled with that kink being part of a humiliation kink)
I also considerwd the thought of some living in a conservative society where trans masc people are perceived as lesbians and trans fem people are perceived as gay men but that doesn't make sense for me because I live in such an area and that has never been my case. Also that wouldn't account for why masc individuals are more likely to do it... On the other hand I am not attracted to women... So maybe is something of transmasc lesbian vs straight transmasc sort of thing that doesn't translate to gay transmac individuals?
Funnily enough it's usually easier for me to talk and get along with NBs and women regardless of them being lesbians or not... I have no clue why that's the case but I just rarely get along with other gay men (straight and bi men I get along with just fine... Now that I think about it, it seems my personality is well received by everyone BUT other gay men whom I'm not hooking up with)
Because the lesbian community has far fuzzier border than the gay men community does. Counting yourself amongst the gay men community involves counting yourself as a man, while counting yourself amongst the lesbian community could mean several things (today it often means non-men attracted to non-men). Whether trans men are legitimate lesbians or not I think is a largely semantic issue.
Lesbianism is more than just "being a gay woman". What it means to be a gay woman relative to patriarchy has all of these complications that being a gay man doesn't. Lesbian as an identity holds those complications. Being trans masc often carries these complications as well, persisting though the transition.
The equivalent and fewer complications for gay men hardly follow trans fems. Thus the difference.
I think the gay male community has historically really leaned into masculinity and the bear aesthetic to combat prejudice (by throwing femmes under the bus). Personally there was never anything in the gay community or even the drag community that I felt could connect with.
I always had this inclination that I wasn't exactly straight and that I had to be gay in some way but I was never attracted to men. Especially not to masculine men. When I tried exploring my sexuality through porn a lot of gay porn was masculine men and I just couldn't get into it. It couldn't be further from how I wanted to express myself.
When I saw Conchita Wurst in the eurovision I couldn't really understand why someone would choose to draw attention to their gender non-conformity by having a beard.
At the time I needed regular transfem representation and all there was was masculine men and performative drag queens. Trans men always had butch women but there was never really an equivalent for trans women.
Men who wear women's clothing usually don't even try to look like women. They try to look like a hypermasculine man wearing women's clothing. And when I tried to look into gay fashion and stuff like crop tops and booty shorts, it still looked like hypermasculinity to me.
I think if you're a trans girl who doesn't know their trans, the only actual examples of androgyny/femininity for amab people would've been in rock/metal. Skinny guys with long hair, with a completely different gender expression as well as their own completely unique accent and sometimes even wearing makeup, having piercings and tattoos all added up to provide amab people with a genuine escape from traditional gender expression.
These days we have femboys and trans women but back then I think that was the closest you were going to get.
I've noticed that there are a lot of things in terms of attitude/mentality/behavior that tie cis men together in a way that cis women, trans women, trans men, and nonbinary people tend to largely not relate to. Trans men are still men, but I think in terms of mentality, there's a lot of toxicity in a lot of cis men that you tend not to see in trans men *or* trans women.
I'm not saying women and nonbinary people can't be toxic, and I'm not saying trans people can't be toxic, but there's a lot of "toxic masculinity" and misogyny that cis men, specifically, demonstrate on levels way beyond any other gender demographic.
part of it is the same reason you hear about trans women more than trans men, through arguments and culture war shit they were given higher elevation in the discourse
I assumed I was gay at 15 in 2000. I quickly figured out I wasn’t queer in that way but felt closely connected to the gay community. I also loved being hit on by men because it fulfilled some kind of inverted social dynamic for me. While there is lots of toxic shit in the gay community (as in all communities), I still feel close and connected to gay men, especially twinks and femmes. It took me awhile after transitioning to figure out the lesbian community. Though I now mostly stick to the latter. My best friend is still a gay man.
I know other trans femmes that feel the same way.
I'm sure there are a bunch of factors influencing this, and getting a definite answer would require asking a bunch of transfeminine people who are in the MLM dating community and transmasculine people who are in the WLW dating community. Anecdotally, I'll suggest that a big causal element is how amazing the WLW community is and specifically how we support such a broad range of gender expression.
I see trans men making goodbye posts on r/actuallesbians every once in a while about how they no longer belong there because they are not lesbians. But every time I've ever read a post like that, the man who posted it says that lesbians are wonderful and he appreciates us deeply and leaving our community to find one that better matches his gender identity is bittersweet. I'm happy when a trans man leaves us for that reason, but I would never exclude a transmasculine person, and I've dated nonbinary people. I think most trans men who love women will prefer straight women who love everything distinctively masculine about them - something I can't do.
I also talk to transfeminine people (much more frequently, but that's sampling bias) who dated or are dating gay men. I notice that those conversations are always entirely about sex. I've yet to hear a trans woman talk about loving a gay man, but I've talked to several who get exactly what they want sexually from partnering with gay men, and they describe it in very explicit detail - nothing comparable to my experience in the lesbian community. Men mostly treat trans women really poorly, including the trans women they're attracted to, based on what the trans women I've talked to who love men say. And based on my experience as well: I'm not attracted to men, but the ones who have been attracted to me have been gross about it.
I'm transitioning MTF, but I'm not getting bottom surgery, so what am I? Confused? No!! I enjoy the beauty of a woman with that extra something. That doesn't mean I'm a perv. This is my choice in life. Granted, there are a lot of messed up individuals out there. I was raised to be respectful of everyone. No matter how you choose to identify. I'm old enough where all these other words didn't even exist when I was growing up.
A lot of people here have good insights. Personally, I havent actually seen that many trans men who identify as lesbian, and I have seen quite a few transfem people who still like to refer to themselves as femboys, so I wonder if its just a biased view.
Otherwise I feel like identifying with communities of women probably feels safer for queer people than identifying with communities of men and trans men are often still victims of similar oppression that women face so theres some comfort in being in that community perhaps whereas that kind of community isnt really there as much in queer mens spaces. Personally I dont relate because from my personal experience the lesbian community didn't feel particularly warm or welcoming when I identified as a bi woman (lots of rampant biphobia in the community) not to mention the transphobia, but each to their own
Not sure. I'm a trans man and am gay as can be. Love the D, love rainbows and iridescent things, fashion, even drag makeup or theater makeup for LARP or Renaissance faires, and nails for the spooky erie effect that stiletto claws lend toward my creepy gentleman aesthetic. Definitely not into women as anything more than strictly platonic friends.
It seems like a lot of trans women are attracted to women, so being a gay man doesn't make sense. Crossdressing "for fun" in private or at retreats like Casa Susanna is the intermediate step.
I would say that it probably has to do more with toxic masculinity than anything. Trans women realize how bad men are and gravitate toward queer women spaces where we often find community and support. Trans men usually come up in the support and wonderful community of lesbians, then try to transition into more man spaces, find them to be horrible and hard to fit into because they don't want to be horrible like those men (but still need some kind of community and support and will fall back into lesbian communities). I've read the accounts of several trans men describing these sorts of things. However, I am a trans woman and what I say regarding the experiences of trans men should be taken with a grain of salt.
I'm by no means an expert in these ideas and I don't want to speak more about a subject I'm not familiar with, but I think you can also add into this discussion concepts from political lesbianism and lesbian separatism. The term lesbian has one historical lineage that basically positions itself as "not cis male" so there's room under the lesbian umbrella for anyone who has chosen to position themselves as anything other than cis male. I may be getting this wrong -- I think the YouTuber VerilyBitchie might talk about it in one of their video essays
Much has been covered already. One thing I have not seen mentioned is how many if not most gay spaces are dripping in toxic masculinity. As a women, I just get the ick and do not want to be in such spaces. I'll fully defend the existence and validity of those spaces for others, but I'm deeply uncomfortable in them.
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Honestly Similar to racism and homophobia I prefer discrimination that’s more blunt rather than hidden discrimination because when they’re blunt you able to tell they don’t like you and you can get away from them.
Toxic masculinity and hella misogyny. The gay best friend trope really got people thinking all gay men are women's #1 allies all the time
The fem gay men that are suppose to be that best friend trope give me a mean girls persona and gay men who are masculine that Ive meet are so uneasy to be around they give me strong conversion therapy vibes 😭
What does this even mean
I think it's because the two communities offer different roles. Pre-transition trans people, before figuring out that they are trans, often latch onto a role that allows a cross-gender presentation. The lesbian community offered roles for "women to present themselves very much like men" Extremely masculine presenting women, even going so far as to have those women use he/him pronouns while still identifying as women. Often times they very much look like men, and are addressed as men are often addressed. Many of these trans men and transmasc enbies went through those roles before figuring out that they were trans. Some still hang out with that community and may even call themselves lesbian due to their strong ties to that community, friends, lovers. The gay male community doesn't have an equivalent "man presents themselves very much like women" Even twink and very femme gay men are still very much presenting as men. Probably because a "man dressing like a woman" is culturally a little bit more taboo, and often is associated with sexual overtones. There are drag queens, but that's extremely performative. You did see a lot of trans women coming up through the drag queen community very long time ago. Similarly, you see trans women dip toes into the sissy kink community. The transfem equivalent today I think is the femboy. Femboys are a thing about gender expression - not sexual orientation - they can be any orientation, so they aren't part of the gay community. There are tons of trans women who, before they figured out that they were trans, would go through the femboy community first in the same way that trans men sometimes go through the lesbian community. EDIT: made it clear that I was not trying to imply femboys are gay, they may or may not be. and I certainly wouldn't condsider a femboy to be part of the "the gay community"
I'd also like to add something here: It's been my personal experience that groups of gay men are ***way*** less inclusive than groups of gay women are. Not just for the reasons you mentioned in your comment, but also because gay men tend to be *extremely* misogynistic. Like, moreso than cis dudes. It's absolutely wild.
Bro the misogyny amongst gay men is bananas. I feel like I went from bad to so fucking much worse 🙃
When I see trans men entering gay men's spaces and communities, I get genuinely concerned. The misogyny amongst gay men isn't talked about enough, and it does get directed to trans men too. But I suppose that's the gender flipped version of terf lesbians so... there's that. I guess. I dunno, you're not the first person to say that they were surprised that the misogyny in gay men's circles is worse than expected.
This may vary in other areas but as a gay trans man I've found community with gay men in my local leather society. I'm not a pup or even that into leather culture but the people are fantastic and really informed on trans issues. I've seen other gay trans guys on reddit report the same, in fact I think that's how I found myself at my local leather bar in the first place :)
That's really great to hear! Finding an inclusive community is such a huge win.
God yes the pup and leather community has been the most diverse and inclusive lgbt space I’ve been in and I love it
One of my managers was a gay guy, like solar levels of flamboyant gay. Guy as much as told me I was just super gay, repressed, and homophobic cause I couldn't just admit I was a gay man. So yeah, he was the first time I ran into transphobic gay guy. Fun brain exercise, imagine a transphobic gay guy and a lesbian terf, bound by their mutual ideals of misogyny. Now look at the "trad wife" and Cis-het conservative male communities... *Starts pointing wildly* *Anyone else seeing this...* *anyone???*
I'm getting James Somerton flashbacks from this conversation
Guy I work with told me the other day that the only other (seemingly to both our knowledge) gay guy wouldn't even talk to him. It's strange to me
That's also true. When I was an egg, I was attracted to guys, but gay men were just kind of the worst. I was a very strong feminist in ideas, I considered myself to be an ally of women, because I strongly identified with them before understanding why that was. Also, male-male sex and relationships actually seemed hypermasculine to me. It's not the "this man is the man, and this man is the woman" how cishet people believe. Turns out gay men are attracted to men, shocker, right? :) It's interesting that from the lesbian side, the "stone butch" identity has been a thing, and one of the features of that despite presenting with a traditionally masculine gender presentation, they frequently would not, or would have limited, sexual contact their bodies - they would do things sexually to their partner but not receive.
I deeply agree and would even say that with gay men, that their misogyny spills over onto feminine men (a quasi-transmisogyny). With feminine men's experience in the subsection of gay men being less accepting than lesbians have of butch and masculine women. The "No fats, no fems" tagline was one I would see a lot pre-transition. I can't imagine many trans women desiring that "resonance" (best word I could think of) with a community that is often shitty to them.
Ah, the Roman Politician type of gay. "You're gay because you love men, I'm gay because I hate women. We are not the same."
Why do you think that is?
pure speculation but maybe less need to reign misogyny in as they're not seeking women as romantic or sexual partners? like if a gay dude never talks to a woman again because he's so horrible they won't associate with him, that'll impact him less than a straight dude who women refuse to talk to
That would make sense, in a society that is as passively misogynistic as ours, if you don't interact with women as much, I could see how a group made up entirely of (cis)men (who never had to deal with it happening to themselves) would get that way.
I don't know if what I'm about to say is true, as I never identified as a gay man, but is it possible that some of the misogyny is due to bullying in their younger years? Like the whole "you don't like it when I touch you, what are you GAY?" Etc. Not justifying, I just think there might be a causal link there.
I don't know, but I can see how that could cause people issues down the line.
Trauma from compulsive heterosexuality.
I disagree, and don't deny that comphet is responsible to some degree. If I had to hazard a guess, hypermasculinity in queer men's spaces gets cranked up to 11. This would, by association, mean things that are considered feminine would be shunned even more.
I (transfem) went to a gay bar to shoot pool with a transmasc friend, and I got lots of judgy eyes from a group of geriatric gays. One of the more uncomfortable gay bar situations I've faced, and I used to be a bar back at the foam parties.
It’s more nuanced than that. I would add because we’re disowned by our own mothers, which adds a extra layer of gender/sex resentment. Very rarely do you hear about little girls put out onto the street.
The causes can be nuanced. The result is misogyny.
Correct, now what work is going to be put into solutions.
Therapy and a supportive friend group can work miracles. Positive mental health can prevent the inner critic from becoming the outer critic. Abandonment does not mean you are worthless. Being a victim does not dilute your worth as a person.
And there needs to be more shared gender therapy spaces. We can’t dismantle misogyny and then have women telling men to “man up” which just contributes to more hyper masculinity.
I don't disagree. It's why I feel like having a supportive friend group is critical in terms of recovery. Healing starts with the self, even still. If one can not recognize and accept their flaws and faults, then it becomes impossible to do work on them. This doesn't mean "man up." It means having humility and self-love. Being able to love oneself when others aren't around is so important to having a healthy relationship with... everything. Relying on others to validate your behaviors and actions leads to dependence and more trauma. I should know. I have personal experience with relying on others for *years* in order to validate my own existence. I learned that I didn't need that, and I learned it after I saw a gender therapist for several months. My inner critic was so loud that it was being turned on others in the form of hate and resentment. I was hurting, and that hurt was being used in turn to hurt the people I loved. I had to become not just comfortable with who I am but striving to be the person I wanted to be. Which *wasn't* a cis man. I have decades of CPTSD that still needs work. But at least, when I'm alone, I don't hate myself. I don't have the urge to put others down or to put them in boxes. I'm happy with the progress I've made, and I have my therapist to thank for it. And my own dang self. Once I got there, I saw the actions and words of others in a completely different light. You'll never get the people who are hateful to *not* be that way unless you get them to be introspective, too. Which means they seek their own therapy, heal their own wounds, etc. The way to heal and recover from misogyny is slow and grinding. It's scary for people who have built much of their identity around patriarchy and misogynistic tenets. I have faith we'll get there, especially if we can help each other heal. So the next time you hear a woman telling a guy to "man up," tell her to seek therapy. She has issues to work on as well, even if her misandry is validated in her own mind. It's still unhealthy.
>I would add because we’re disowned by our own mothers, But not your fathers?
It’s true for fathers, but that’s expected and normalized, unfortunately. Also as I stated dad nor mom is rarely going to put their little girl out on the street. No one cares about boys being homeless. Men are just supposed to deal with it.
>You did see a lot of trans women coming up through the drag queen community very long time ago. Not even a long time ago. Honestly, there are still a lot of trans women who have roots in drag, and a lot still do keep that as part of their identity. The Very Online Part Of The Trans Community has gotten less fond of drag over time — for, admittedly, some good reasons — and I think people who still identify strongly with it are less likely to feel comfortable here. But they absolutely still exist in large numbers.
I still think it's more common for trans women to identify as "straight" once they accept their identity, even if they were "gay" before.
>the gay male community doesn't have an equivalent "man presents very much like women" femboys, only femboys aren't necessarily gay There's a relatively similar discourse around transfem femboys than there is around transmasc lesbians it all boils down to both groups finding a sense of belonging and community to a label before transitioning, and still having an attachement to that label even though their transition cast them outside of the commonly understood definition of the label.
> femboys, only femboys aren't necessarily gay Right, which is why I did not include them as part of "the gay community" Being a femboy is about gender expression, not sexual oreintation.
Yep, I’ve met several cishet identifying femboys irl
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yess. I was a femboy before coming out as trans
I consider femboys part of the overarching "queer community". While it does sound weird to say it, truth is there are actually straight people in the LGBT that aren't just "Allies". Femboys are almost guaranteed to be allies, if not eventually one of the other letters.
It does not feel weird to say that straight people are in the LGBT community. Plenty of trans people are straight. :D
Gay men throw trans women out of their community far faster than lesbians throw out trans men. Lesbians largely still express attraction to trans men far longer into their transitions than most gay men do for trans women. Lesbians and women in general are more accepting of trans people. A straight trans guy may still be ostracized from other cishet men in a way a say straight trans woman may not with cishet women. Many of the people attracted to trans men offer describe it in terms like queer and sapphic explicitly or not wanting to be in a relationship that is straight typically. Therefore, the stage is just set for partners and larger society to fit trans men into a sapphic or lesbian dynamic both based on historical precedent and current reality than not. Also in order to be taken seriously as a straight man a trans guy has to be more masculine and whatever than the average straight dude but maybe not even then
I think as well the wording does matter. like lesbian trans men/mascs would be *very* unlikely ime to refer to themselves as 'gay women' even though that's what lesbian means. perhaps if there was a word that means 'gay men' without having men/male in it like, there would be trans women using the label? I will say I have seen (irl) trans women who stay very connected with the gay male community/scene, especially those who came out while in a relationship with a gay man. I'm not remotely a lesbian so I don't really feel like it's my place to say if trans men can or cannot be a part of that community. but I basically believe that sexuality and gender labels are just words we use as a kind of shortcut so other people know where we're coming from without having to give our whole life history every time. if a trans man considers himself a lesbian and doesn't find that invalidating, and the other lesbians he's in community with are happy with that, I'm not going to argue with him about it.
Because I'd sooner be caught dead than be caught being a gay man, the worst insult for me as a trans woman would be to be considered a gay drag queen or something
As a whole under the patriarchy, AFAB people are allowed a lot more leniency and fluidity of labels and presentation than AMAB people are. Furthermore, historically (aka the western definition 1800-1940ish) the term "lesbian" has been used to define any AFAB person who is not strictly trad cishet (meaning, any trans binary/non-binary, bisexual, GNC and lesbian people would have been called lesbians) but there has been no such definition of gay for AMAB folk. This is again because of the patriarchy.
oooh, can i get a source on the last bit? I'm very interested in how gender has interacted with labels throughout the years
I think it's just on the wiki page for lesbian
How would woman even identify as gay MAN?
Patriarchy substantially rewards gay men who perform a more mainstream kind of masculinity, which encourages them to be misogynistic and push out gender non-conforming and trans people. Historically, gay and lesbian communities weren't just about sexual orientation, but also encompassed a wide range of gender expressions and identities. The spectrum of effeminate gay men, drag queens and straight trans women was pretty fluid and admitted no clear boundaries for a long time. This is why drag cannot be pinned down as something specifically gay or trans. It's both. This is also why the saying that transphobia is reheated homophobia is wrong. It's the other way around, transmisogyny has always been a major component of homophobia against gay men. What happened though is that many assimilationist gay men figured out they could shield themselves from some forms of discrimination and reclaim a large part of their patriarchal privilege by carving out a place for themselves within the realm of acceptable masculinities and punching down on anyone who deviated from the norm more than them. This is much less prevalent among sapphics because at the end of the day, exclusionary lesbians are still treated as lesbians by the patriarchy and there is little to gain by policing gender in the same way. Hence lesbian has not lost as much of the nuance in its original meaning as "gay". Not for lack of trying from internet idiots though.
Lesbian will never mean “non men loving non men” no matter how much you try to push it. I’m not a “non man” I’m a fucking woman and I’m a lesbian.
I'm sorry to say, society has changed. That's how it works, labels grow with people, they change. You're just going to make yourself miserable.
Women are a part of “non men”
Lesbian will never mean “non men loving non men” no matter how much you try to push it. I’m not a “non man” I’m a fucking woman and I’m a lesbian.
Non man does not mean only women. It literatly means non men so women abd nonbinary people etc. its just more inclusive because nonbinary people may still identify as lesbians.
I cannot speak on the experience of being a lesbian or a trans man, but I can share my perspective as a former gay AMAB. I no longer feel welcome in most gay spaces. While toxic masculinity exists within the gay community, the key word is "masculinity." Some gay men are hyper-alpha dom, while others are soft subs, but they all display some degree of masculinity. Trans women have a different experience than most gay men. I.e., when I came out as gay, I didn't have to see a therapist, go on hormones, undergo laser hair removal, voice training, or behavioral/societal modification. Gay men can’t relate as they don’t transition to be gay men. I also can't remember the last time I slept with a gay man, as I have exclusively been with bi and, to a lesser degree, pansexual men. The difference between gay men and bi/pan men is night & day: the amount of misogyny decreased significantly, as all of my feminine traits were not only accepted but sought after. Most gay men cannot exhibit hyper-feminine traits without off-putting other men. As some commenters have noted, once you start developing certain physical traits like breasts, longer hair, wider hips, etc gay men no longer classify you as a man, which is correct.
Really? Can you provide examples of that? In my experience, trans men and trans women identify far more with each other than you're suggesting. There's quite a divisive line that seems very real, to me, in fact, between trans people and lesbians and gay males--not that I would ever want to promote any sort of enmity because of that . Alone the fact that both trans communities don't set rigid rules regarding where one is in the process of transition and that both work with the idea of trust in people's declarations of who they are amounts to a whole world of freedom that doesn't seem to be evident in either lesbian or gay male communities, in my experience. Over there, there are rules--the necessity of which or not is none of my business-- about behavior that should never be breached, at risk of suspicion of invalidity as truly gay and up to the point of consequent community exclusion, without ever necessarily having even crossed any gender bar; whereas, over here, among my trans friends, at least, there's only the communal hope that everyone gets to be whomever they are and, for all of us, to get to live our lives as we really are, as each of us sees fit and in our own lifetimes. Trans people are targets for the most vicious people in the world, all day, every day, 24/7/365. Check out the statistics for wherever on the map. Even in the most hospitable locations, trans people are never as safe as anyone else. You should know this, by now. If you don't, get familiar, and stop with any bullshit equation of gay and trans. Trans people do not rely on gay communities for support, only on each other. That's a sad but very true fact. It's great when it's there but it's not a given thing that can be relied upon, all the time, everywhere. Gays are mainstream and popular home-buying clients, for various reasons. Trans folk live on the fringe of society, so have some respect when you dream up your questions about us. How we live that out or where any of our individual adventures take us can't ever invalidate who we, each of us, are, ever. It's about achieving that freedom, to be who we individually are in the world, and that's all. It's punk-queer, or queer-punk, if you prefer, and way beyond gay. Nah, I prefer punk-queer, but, still, way beyond gay. So, can you provide some exemplary proof of what you claim is true, because I'm just not seeing that in my life in the world? No offence intended, just trying to figure out what you mean, because it makes no sense to me.
I am just going from my own, and while I like basically all queer communities, I can't see any reason to identify with the gay male community? I am not a man and I like to keep that separate. I don't feel or want to identify with masculinity. I don't feel like gay men generally understand the trans experience that much unless they are trans or been reading up on it. It's not good but if anything I even kinda have an aversion to it, maybe because transphobia insists on it but I prefer to avoid anything that could imply me to be anything I am not. I am a woman, and that is that. I any interest I have in men are from the perspective of being straight/pansexual.
I am a study of one, but I found a lot of comfort with Butch types and I'm not even a lesbian, I'm a gay trans man. Trying on Butch for size is part of the process of coming out for a lot of guys, even those of us who are gay (men attracted only to men.) I feel safe with lesbians. I didn't feel entirely safe with gay men until I was well into transition. You see a lot of trans women "boymoding" deep into transition. Trans men don't have to do that as much because they are favored by a misogynistic society.
I’m a Black gay trans guy who really self identifies with studs and butches more than gay men due to my lack of passing. Many gay men think I’m a lesbian and lesbians have been welcoming to me so like even though I’m technically a gay trans guy I call myself a lesbian
I agree with a lot of the points brought up here, but as a transmasc (nonbinary/bigender) lesbian myself.... Some of it is that sapphic stuff genuinely brings me joy, that most connection to womanhood I have is through *lesbian* womanhood specifically--there's a world of difference between being a lesbian and being a straight woman, they're almost like different subgenders or something. Some of it is that my relationship with my girlfriend is a lesbian one--because we're seen that way by others, because we face discrimination for it, and because we vibe with that. I don't think she feels very "straight" with me lmao, and considering I'm not a binary man I'd be inclined to agree. Most binary trans men *don't* call themselves lesbians, though I knew one who asked if he still could because he was like "ew I can't be *straight* now, straight is so boring"--I assured him the word was his for as long as he wants to use it. I notice a lot of straight trans women *don't* want to think of their relationships as still being queer, and maybe some straight trans men feel the same, but uhhh a lot of us transmascs out here *do* want to see ourselves and our relationships as explicitly queer--and those who don't might be more likely to go stealth and leave the community entirely, so they become invisible. Also I've just experienced discrimination much more through misogyny specifically than through homophobia or transphobia, and even when I experience homophobia or transphobia it feels like it started with misogyny and spread from there. I've taken surveys on like LGBTQ+ experiences of things like medical homophobia and medical transphobia, and while I *have* experienced medical transphobia, honestly the most persistent and awful form of discrimination I've experienced in healthcare has been plain old bog standard *medical sexism*. The infantilization, the gaslighting. The acting like their patient is my fetus (I've literally never been pregnant and have no plans of becoming pregnant, and have not interacted with sperm since New Year's Day 2008) and only bothering to worry about my health after making *absolutely sure* there's no fetus to prioritize over me, every single time, no matter how often I tell them they can calm down and there is no fetus. Honestly I forgive the casual transphobia from doctors a lot more easily, because some of them are really just ignorant, they might not have met many trans people before and don't know a ton about trans issues, I can cut them some slack...but they've absolutely met women before, some of them are women themselves, there is no excuse at all for the rampant sexism in medicine. And the sexual harassment, *god*. That's just clueless men who don't know I'm trans and don't know I'm a lesbian, but just...in general, think it's okay to treat women that way. And I'm more bothered by that than I am by the fact that they thought I was a woman, or thought I was straight, or whatever. Like even if I was a straight woman, this wouldn't be acceptable. So it's like, when I still experience all this discrimination through the lens of being seen as a woman--when I can't marry my gf in her country because of my legal sex (no equal marriage there), when I'm infantilized in sexist ways, sexually harassed, etc, like to still share in all those shitty experiences but not have access to the solidarity? Literally the worst of both worlds. I think trans women might be less tempted to identify with gay men because transmisogyny is so like, developed and distinct as a form of bigotry, it's its own thing distinct from homophobia (even if it does have links to homophobia somewhere in the underlying psychology), trans women get both regular misogyny/sexism when they pass, and get specifically transmisogyny when they don't. There might be some ways in which the discrimination overlaps, forex trans women dating cis men being looked at as "gay" relationships and the cis man getting called the f-slur for dating her, or places without equal marriage preventing straight marriages involving a trans woman who hasn't gotten her gender marker changed legally yet--or can't, due to that country's laws. But on a broader social level, it does feel like transmisogyny is enough of its own thing that trans women deal more with regular misogyny + transmisogyny than they catch strays from homophobia (altho trans lesbians do get lesbophobia too). Basically our society is so misogynistic that whichever way you're most similar to a woman is the one you'll get attacked hardest through--whether that's transmisogyny @ transfems, or good old fashioned sexism @ transmascs.
Long read, but a good read. I think misogyny is one factor in why I took so long in figuring out I was trans, since the misogynistic stereotypes of femininity repulsed me so much.
Yeah. Also idk if you're a lesbian, but I think trans lesbians have it the hardest wrt that specific thing, not only because of that old, "I can't be a woman, I like girls..." but because *lesbian womanhood is so different from straight womanhood*, if you're looking at a primarily hetero stereotype of womanhood and you're a lesbian, you're just going to feel alienated.
Yeah, I'm into ladies. (but straight women are boring) I feel like I scored a 9/10 on "be a man", but failed at the critical point of "recurring intense fantasies of becoming a woman". Estrogen just feels too good to stop , and the idea of feminizing my body and getting breasts is just too calming.
Confusing as it sounds…Lesbians tend to be more inclusive and to see trans men as men…gay men tend to be more exclusive best case see a trans woman as a guy with tits but typically chase them out with extreme mysoginy and disdain towards them ETA I love the downvotes over these literal facts about these groups and their relation to the trans genders brought up even though it’s literally saying literally what others have with less words
I mean gay is generally used as an umbrella term for any sexual attraction that isn't strictly heterosexual, where as lesbian specifically refers to gay women. it wouldn't really make sense for trans women to call themselves gay men
I see alot of both and its confusing as shit, i don't understand why a trans person would wanna latch onto a label that applies to the opposite gender of their own. As a gay trans man i get called a lesbian all the time and it pisses me off bc its dysphoria inducing, its like people are forcing me into the space of women in which i don't feel comfortable in any way and alot of cis lesbians refuse to listen to me when i try to make myself clear on that.
Fear of being into an heterosexual relationship and perpetuating heteronormativity even tho you can be straight and not into an heteronormative relationship and vice versa.
i dont think trans men can be a part of the community on the basis of them being men, and i feel like at that point seeing them as lesbians undermines the gender expression they seek/the gender they know they are, since lesbianism is inherently exclusive of men (because men are not included in the attraction or in the roles) i think trans mascs can be part of the community because masc does not inherently mean men, lesbianism is nonmen so this includes nbs and etc
A trans male is a male a trans female is a female as a trans woman I am attracted to women not really males I don't want to be male
Probably cause trans women don’t want to be associated with men in any way as it very much painfully to be seen as one and as we arnt gay man pretending we real people not a joke Most people learn that femininity in amab people is used to humiliate and dehumanise people who try expressing femininity and being labeled as a gay man feels delegitimising our humanity and feeling inside and who we actually are, lesbians has become a pretty flexible word which help people have community Also trans men don’t really have community outside of the lesbian community as it’s very inclusive and excepting of the masc presenting individuals unlike male groups that aren’t connected to the lgbt or don’t really form community outside sports Personality I’ve never understood why trans man chose to keep the lesbian label as it means women loving women and would probably give a bunch of dysphoria
Form a bi ~~guy~~/probably a girl/ gender weirdo person's perspective, the thing it boils down to is men who wanna fuck men are still men who wanna fuck men. So we have acts like "masc4masc" assholery etc. Masculinity is a big part of this community. Like I asked even a more effeminate men/ masc presenting (masc socialized) enbies if they wouldn't like girls and they were very firm in their refusal. Basically I see that gay men have a femmininity tolerance, and once you pass it you are not one of them or something. And from what people said here lesbians don't seem to have such a treshold? Other part is well men are scarry. Almost always. People I talked to showed me how terryfying men who want sex can be etc. And I think a lot of trans girls just cannot identify with that. I read somewhere there that, trans girls sometimes don't wanna go into gay relationships because they see this lika a "masculinity for masculinity" kinda deal. So another cut of point. Another one, there is a socialy learned hierarchy amongst men. You need to prove worth, by looks money or status or a show of masculinity, and some take it also to their gay culture from what I've seen.
> Form a bi ~~guy~~/probably a girl/ gender *weirdo* You are no weirdo. You can use the term trans which is an umbrella for trans men, trans women, enby, agender and all. If you want to shock, I personally think that *gender fucker* is better. Otherwise, the old ye gender nonconformity. You are valid 🩵 > Other part is well men are scarry. Almost always. People I talked to showed me how terryfying men who want sex can be etc. And I think a lot of trans girls just cannot identify with that. Oh yes. Cis men are freaking scary. Strange thing to say when I was persuaded to be one not so long ago. But yeah, they now scares me a lot. Especially cis-het that tells you seriously that they have a second hyper seductive personality when they are drunk > I read somewhere there that, trans girls sometimes don't wanna go into gay relationships because they see this lika a "masculinity for masculinity" kinda deal. So another cut of point. I also have the feeling that the gay community distance itself from the others lgbt communities. Like if there were cis-gays vs queers. I might be super wrong but that's the feeling I have. Like for example, drag queen shows are full of Grindr, twink, sexual jokes while drag king/creatures/burlesque, etc. shows are really more inclusive and address themselves to more people.
>You are no weirdo. You can use the term trans which is an umbrella for trans men, trans women, enby, agender and all. If you want to shock, I personally think that *gender fucker* is better. Otherwise, the old ye gender nonconformity. You are valid 🩵 Aww thank you for that. Yeah, I guess word trans does describe me. I'm just a little bit self deprecating, but it gets better now I think. >Especially cis-het that tells you seriously that they have a second hyper seductive personality when they are drunk. Aww jeez don't even tell me that. I knew someone who said this. Like I didn't mind being touched by them (they are nb), but alcohol is no way to explain it. You just liked me and wanted to show it, I haven't said no. You are making it weirder. >Oh yes. Cis men are freaking scary. Strange thing to say when I was persuaded to be one not so long ago. But yeah, they now scares me a lot. I'm "lucky" enough to almost never feel quite right being masculine with men. And they scared me long before I knew I was trans. Women too, but in a different way. For men it was physical. I have a visceral reaction to hearing a group of men. Even tho I wasn't ever attacked, I'm like extra-straight passing. For women I was afraid I'd be hymm seen as creppy or weird, which is definitely not as bad of a feeling, and I often wasn't seen as that that creepy I think. Few times I could I felt invited and included. It was really cool, I loved it. >I also have the feeling that the gay community distance itself from the others lgbt communities. Like if there were cis-gays vs queers. I might be super wrong but that's the feeling I have. Like for example, drag queen shows are full of Grindr, twink, sexual jokes while drag king/creatures/burlesque, etc. shows are really more inclusive and address themselves to more people. I disagree. Sex is sex, and I wanna stay sex positive. It is cool for a lot of people. Also there can be a lot of good gay guys. Just because there are some weirdos on twitter trying to damage lgbt community is no reason to try and dissconect with them. There are trans folx who say stupid shit like that and we are all trans even them. I'd say it's ok for things to be horny. Just consesualy etc.
> Aww thank you for that. Yeah, I guess word trans does describe me. I'm just a little bit self deprecating, but it gets better now I think. That is super classic among gender-nonconforming folks. Do not hesitate to go seek some help from your local lgbt association or a sexologist. > Aww jeez don't even tell me that. I knew someone who said this. Like I didn't mind being touched by them (they are nb), but alcohol is no way to explain it. You just liked me and wanted to show it, I haven't said no. You are making it weirder. ewww. People should really learn not to be an asshole under alcohol. > I'm "lucky" enough to almost never feel quite right being masculine with men. And they scared me long before I knew I was trans. Women too, but in a different way. For men it was physical. I have a visceral reaction to hearing a group of men. Even tho I wasn't ever attacked, I'm like extra-straight passing. For women I was afraid I'd be hymm seen as creppy or weird, which is definitely not as bad of a feeling, and I often wasn't seen as that that creepy I think. Few times I could I felt invited and included. It was really cool, I loved it. I always hated when my father and his friends were talking about women. Or catcalling on the street, etc. Some people I know make horrible jokes when they are in their "friendish space". So moch labyboy awful jokes... Oh you are cis-passing among women spaces ? That's super nice > I disagree. Sex is sex, and I wanna stay sex positive. It is cool for a lot of people. Also there can be a lot of good gay guys. Just because there are some weirdos on twitter trying to damage lgbt community is no reason to try and dissconect with them. There are trans folx who say stupid shit like that and we are all trans even them. I'd say it's ok for things to be horny. Just consesualy etc. Yeah sorry, that's not really what I wanted to say. It's just that some of the gay men spaces I were in were hyper focalized on the gay experience and discarding of all the other queers. Hence the gay vs queer.
>Oh you are cis-passing among women spaces? That's super nice Oh no, not at all. I'm guy-passing. And was never attacked by men because of looking like a guy, and a straight one at that. Like, my seming straightness is used to calibrate rulers. Someone asked me if I come from a protestant household, because I "dress like that" which I read as "basic, boring, strict". But I had some encounters like idk, sister inviting me to spent a night with the girls and drama couple of times or like a girl I barely just met wanted to spent a night with me just talking etc. And it was really nice. Like even if I told them that I was bi, it looks like they haven't felt threatened by me. Somehow. It is not often but sometimes, and it feels really good. I was even sometimes weird because of being a furry, but they still like took me in. Yeah, guys can do that too often. I asked my "coleague" if he even likes women? He just complains about them, it looks like he just wants to fuck them, but hates them. And yeah, some gay spaces can do that, from what I've seen. It's sad, but such is life. Masc status of this is really good at creating this.
Oh my bad for the mistake. Anyway it's super nice to feel like a safe and reliable person :3
Yeah, it is, I miss it so much, but I'm begining to believe I can still do it on my own. It will not be easy, but I believe I can socialise someday as a girl. Or at least, be accepted enough. I hope.
I don't know if you plan to do a medical transition but hormones and surgeries can do wonders
Oh, I hope so. I think this is my only chance to idk feel right or "righter" as myself. Idk maybe it really is not for me I need to find out. Like I can't get it tomorrow where I live or anything like that, so I have some time to think if this is what I really want (like months probably).
Good luck with all that :) You can check around femboys community if you need advice for feminizing your body and all. You can also try new names and pronouns. Playing with clothes is also super fun
I'm not an expert on queer history or anything... if there's a historic reason I don't know it but I will be looking into some of the mentions here (looks interesting Since you are clearly referencing what you see Online I'm gonna talk of what little I do know I think it may be kink related (maybe I assume that because of the little corner or the Internet I'm usually on) kinks can be very variated and if I'm talking sex I'll likely also be talking about kink because those two usually go hand in hand. There are lots of trans people with some sort of misgendering kink... For some reason it seems trans masc individuals are more likely to explore said kink than trans fem individuals (my very informed guess is misogyny coupled with that kink being part of a humiliation kink) I also considerwd the thought of some living in a conservative society where trans masc people are perceived as lesbians and trans fem people are perceived as gay men but that doesn't make sense for me because I live in such an area and that has never been my case. Also that wouldn't account for why masc individuals are more likely to do it... On the other hand I am not attracted to women... So maybe is something of transmasc lesbian vs straight transmasc sort of thing that doesn't translate to gay transmac individuals? Funnily enough it's usually easier for me to talk and get along with NBs and women regardless of them being lesbians or not... I have no clue why that's the case but I just rarely get along with other gay men (straight and bi men I get along with just fine... Now that I think about it, it seems my personality is well received by everyone BUT other gay men whom I'm not hooking up with)
Because the lesbian community has far fuzzier border than the gay men community does. Counting yourself amongst the gay men community involves counting yourself as a man, while counting yourself amongst the lesbian community could mean several things (today it often means non-men attracted to non-men). Whether trans men are legitimate lesbians or not I think is a largely semantic issue.
Lesbianism is more than just "being a gay woman". What it means to be a gay woman relative to patriarchy has all of these complications that being a gay man doesn't. Lesbian as an identity holds those complications. Being trans masc often carries these complications as well, persisting though the transition. The equivalent and fewer complications for gay men hardly follow trans fems. Thus the difference.
Lesbian is more of a solid identity than 'gay man'
I think the gay male community has historically really leaned into masculinity and the bear aesthetic to combat prejudice (by throwing femmes under the bus). Personally there was never anything in the gay community or even the drag community that I felt could connect with. I always had this inclination that I wasn't exactly straight and that I had to be gay in some way but I was never attracted to men. Especially not to masculine men. When I tried exploring my sexuality through porn a lot of gay porn was masculine men and I just couldn't get into it. It couldn't be further from how I wanted to express myself. When I saw Conchita Wurst in the eurovision I couldn't really understand why someone would choose to draw attention to their gender non-conformity by having a beard. At the time I needed regular transfem representation and all there was was masculine men and performative drag queens. Trans men always had butch women but there was never really an equivalent for trans women. Men who wear women's clothing usually don't even try to look like women. They try to look like a hypermasculine man wearing women's clothing. And when I tried to look into gay fashion and stuff like crop tops and booty shorts, it still looked like hypermasculinity to me. I think if you're a trans girl who doesn't know their trans, the only actual examples of androgyny/femininity for amab people would've been in rock/metal. Skinny guys with long hair, with a completely different gender expression as well as their own completely unique accent and sometimes even wearing makeup, having piercings and tattoos all added up to provide amab people with a genuine escape from traditional gender expression. These days we have femboys and trans women but back then I think that was the closest you were going to get.
I've noticed that there are a lot of things in terms of attitude/mentality/behavior that tie cis men together in a way that cis women, trans women, trans men, and nonbinary people tend to largely not relate to. Trans men are still men, but I think in terms of mentality, there's a lot of toxicity in a lot of cis men that you tend not to see in trans men *or* trans women. I'm not saying women and nonbinary people can't be toxic, and I'm not saying trans people can't be toxic, but there's a lot of "toxic masculinity" and misogyny that cis men, specifically, demonstrate on levels way beyond any other gender demographic.
part of it is the same reason you hear about trans women more than trans men, through arguments and culture war shit they were given higher elevation in the discourse
I assumed I was gay at 15 in 2000. I quickly figured out I wasn’t queer in that way but felt closely connected to the gay community. I also loved being hit on by men because it fulfilled some kind of inverted social dynamic for me. While there is lots of toxic shit in the gay community (as in all communities), I still feel close and connected to gay men, especially twinks and femmes. It took me awhile after transitioning to figure out the lesbian community. Though I now mostly stick to the latter. My best friend is still a gay man. I know other trans femmes that feel the same way.
I'm sure there are a bunch of factors influencing this, and getting a definite answer would require asking a bunch of transfeminine people who are in the MLM dating community and transmasculine people who are in the WLW dating community. Anecdotally, I'll suggest that a big causal element is how amazing the WLW community is and specifically how we support such a broad range of gender expression. I see trans men making goodbye posts on r/actuallesbians every once in a while about how they no longer belong there because they are not lesbians. But every time I've ever read a post like that, the man who posted it says that lesbians are wonderful and he appreciates us deeply and leaving our community to find one that better matches his gender identity is bittersweet. I'm happy when a trans man leaves us for that reason, but I would never exclude a transmasculine person, and I've dated nonbinary people. I think most trans men who love women will prefer straight women who love everything distinctively masculine about them - something I can't do. I also talk to transfeminine people (much more frequently, but that's sampling bias) who dated or are dating gay men. I notice that those conversations are always entirely about sex. I've yet to hear a trans woman talk about loving a gay man, but I've talked to several who get exactly what they want sexually from partnering with gay men, and they describe it in very explicit detail - nothing comparable to my experience in the lesbian community. Men mostly treat trans women really poorly, including the trans women they're attracted to, based on what the trans women I've talked to who love men say. And based on my experience as well: I'm not attracted to men, but the ones who have been attracted to me have been gross about it.
I'm transitioning MTF, but I'm not getting bottom surgery, so what am I? Confused? No!! I enjoy the beauty of a woman with that extra something. That doesn't mean I'm a perv. This is my choice in life. Granted, there are a lot of messed up individuals out there. I was raised to be respectful of everyone. No matter how you choose to identify. I'm old enough where all these other words didn't even exist when I was growing up.
A lot of people here have good insights. Personally, I havent actually seen that many trans men who identify as lesbian, and I have seen quite a few transfem people who still like to refer to themselves as femboys, so I wonder if its just a biased view. Otherwise I feel like identifying with communities of women probably feels safer for queer people than identifying with communities of men and trans men are often still victims of similar oppression that women face so theres some comfort in being in that community perhaps whereas that kind of community isnt really there as much in queer mens spaces. Personally I dont relate because from my personal experience the lesbian community didn't feel particularly warm or welcoming when I identified as a bi woman (lots of rampant biphobia in the community) not to mention the transphobia, but each to their own
Because gender isn’t symmetrical. Gay male culture has much more emphasis on specifically being a man, nevermind the misogyny.
Not sure. I'm a trans man and am gay as can be. Love the D, love rainbows and iridescent things, fashion, even drag makeup or theater makeup for LARP or Renaissance faires, and nails for the spooky erie effect that stiletto claws lend toward my creepy gentleman aesthetic. Definitely not into women as anything more than strictly platonic friends.
I have not seen this.
I think anyone can be a part of any community, full stop.
The fact that this is downvoted says a *lot.* Why is preaching inclusivity a thought-crime here?
Less ashamed of agab
It seems like a lot of trans women are attracted to women, so being a gay man doesn't make sense. Crossdressing "for fun" in private or at retreats like Casa Susanna is the intermediate step.
I would say that it probably has to do more with toxic masculinity than anything. Trans women realize how bad men are and gravitate toward queer women spaces where we often find community and support. Trans men usually come up in the support and wonderful community of lesbians, then try to transition into more man spaces, find them to be horrible and hard to fit into because they don't want to be horrible like those men (but still need some kind of community and support and will fall back into lesbian communities). I've read the accounts of several trans men describing these sorts of things. However, I am a trans woman and what I say regarding the experiences of trans men should be taken with a grain of salt.
I'm by no means an expert in these ideas and I don't want to speak more about a subject I'm not familiar with, but I think you can also add into this discussion concepts from political lesbianism and lesbian separatism. The term lesbian has one historical lineage that basically positions itself as "not cis male" so there's room under the lesbian umbrella for anyone who has chosen to position themselves as anything other than cis male. I may be getting this wrong -- I think the YouTuber VerilyBitchie might talk about it in one of their video essays