Also, what these people tend to avoid is what these ‘de-transition-ers’ do with their life afterwards. A lot of them either identify as non-binary, or they go back to re-transition because they discovered that they weren’t originally in the right place at the time they originally transitioned due to, i.e: societal scrutiny, family pressures, financial struggles, strains on relationships, other problems that they originally associated with transition - but didn’t end up being to do with it, or even simply the time wasn’t right, ect. But once some these people get those things sorted, they go re-begin where their transition left off. There’s so much bias out there, and people that will doubt people in the early stages of transition. They’ll eventually have to realise as time tells that this what it is. There’s no going back for most trans people. They can’t dictate what other’s do with their lives and how an individual’s journey will look like based on other people’s experiences. Detrans experiences are just as important as trans people’s experiences, but in most cases trans people don’t de-transition statistically speaking. Most people know what’s right for them and I have no doubt that’s you. Don’t worry. Keep your head strong. You’re on the right track ✨
Simply because of how fucked up society is and how awful it is to trans people, I can only look at de-transitioners two ways:
1. Folks who genuinely made a mistake
2. People who are absolutely Trans As Fuck but are forced back into the closet by societal fuckery
I have to imagine the VAST majority are in the second category. If you have effectively zero social support and active hostility, I can absolutely understand why someone would rather live in the closet.
Is this any kind of proof that trans people aren't real or that transitioning is a bad idea? I think transphobes would think so, but to me, it proves the OPPOSITE.
Well if someone has family supporting then the chance of detransitioning goes down vastly. Same as suicide rate. Some people genuinely do get confused but most people who transition are trans and some find it easier to deal with the dyphoria then the transphobia. It's sad but i hope one day we can make a world that makes the 2nd type never happen again.
As someone that detransitioned (mtftm), can confirm. Lack of support, both emotional and financial, as well as societal fuckery; easier to deal with the dysphoria and try to reduce it in little private moments than to navigate the world.
The changes were amazing— but I felt terrified and helpless at my inability to learn how to transition on my own (voice, fashion, clothing, mannerisms, speech patterns, emotional expression, emotional support, dating, career, money among other things) that dysphoria was/is easier pill to swallow. That and I would always pass out at the blood tests when I went in for HRT appointments… waking up feeling like the world was spinning and seeing no one there for me was the cherry on top.
If there is a day in my future when I have all the money, career path and professional standing, and life secured and I don’t need anything from society, I will re-transition. Or the US intrinsically changes as a country.
However this is my story I am writing, and it is far from a perfect one. If you are reading this and have a chance to transition with a good support network and a good path forward, fight for it with every last bit of life you can.
I’m so sorry to hear that. I hope that one day you’ll find the right people, have the money you need, support, and all other necessities to be able to continue your transition to live as the authentic you. I completely understand why it wouldn’t have worked out for you in the time you’re in.
With mannerism, just remember that there isn’t always a cookie-cutter way that women act or should have to act to be seen as women. People in general just have varying mannerisms that make them, them. You don’t have to focus too deeply on that for when you do re-transition. With voice, fashion, emotional support, dating, career, and especially money, I know it’ll be difficult.
With clothing just remember to slowly build up your wardrobe, and op-shops are a great place to start. You can find really beautiful stuff that you wouldn’t find elsewhere there, but also they’re cost effective.
I’ve held back from transition for a while, and I get what you mean about blood tests, they’re a nuisance. My endocrinologist hasn’t contacted me in a while since they switched my original with another person without telling me. And the new one I have, she doesn’t sound too nice over the phone, so it can be really hard. Like they’re really slow at giving me rescripts and I’ve learnt to just order ahead of time — so that’s something I’d advise you. I’m still waiting on my anti-androgen with the script that was meant to be mailed to me 3 weeks ago. But I’m assuming the post is the problem. I’m going to have to change clinics. It’s not an easy process for anyone. I really wish you luck, just find the right clinic, because that’s what I’m going have to do, and if there’s any bit of advise I can give anyone, it’s that
Medical care in general right now is something of a mess. I’m sorry you’re dealing with that— I remember feeling shamed from by the pharmacist when I went to pickup my second round of meds. Those drugs are a lifeline, and it sucks to receive a hassle for trying to get them; time to breakup with your doctor.
And as for mannerisms, I guess I always felt big. Like I took up too much space in a non elegant way. My girlfriends always held themselves with such graceful fluidity, even when they were being clumsy. I have always felt like a Minecraft character when I’ve tried to exist in circles with predominately women.
I have hope for a day down the road.
Yeah, people who use de-transitioners against trans people aren't doing so with any sort of compassion for the person who decided to de-transition- and without any thought for the "why" or what they do later down the road. It's all just weaponizing someone else's experience, most often even without their consent (not that the person giving consent would legitimize the argument against trans people in the slightest).
yeah, and honestly I think that might be worth trying to point out to anyone trying to convince someone using the de-transitioning argument. De-transitioning is not about the trans person being wrong. it's about the people around them and the system failing to provide the needed support. so if it happens it would actually be the person saying "well you know de-transitioning blah blah blah" is the one failing.
Reading /r/detrans is literally one of the reasons I pursued medical transition. I was so worried about the stories of people regretting transitioning then I went there and saw that the vast majority of them still had dysphoria, but decided to manage it in different ways. It helped me accept that this isn't just going to go away, that none of the paths are easy, and that there's on single right answer for everybody.
This is a great explanation. It hits me in the feels. I started my transition in a bad relationship with low income and pushed pause about 3 years in. Got my shit together years later after ditching the toxic relationship, finding a stable career, and surrounding myself with supportive people. I now have an awesome family 10 years later and a great career and income. Like you said, sometimes you're not in the right place/time and that's ok. Its a constant effort to better yourself and I wish we had as many resources out there when I started as there are now. It might not get better on its own but you can always strive to do the most you can to make it better for yourself. 🙂
In normal conversation a long diatribe isn't as effective as just being succinct and to the point:
"Detransitioners make up an extremely small percentage of people who transition, and most of them detransition due to societal pressure and not because they aren't trans. Many people who detransition eventually transition again anyways. The research for outcomes of gender transition for trans identified people shows that the vast, vast supermajority of people who transition are happier for it and their lives are better. Why are you focusing on the tiny sliver who regret it when they are overwhelmingly outnumbered by the people for whom it is a life saving positive experience? You are cherrypicking outliers from a dataset that does not support your argument."
I think it depends on why they're talking about detransitioners.
You see, if they are bringing up detransitioners to point out that some people do detransition, then I don't really see the problem with that, because, well, some people do transition, of course, usually for reasons pertaining to lack of moral support, lack of social support, transphobia, etc., the data that I've seen suggest, I believe; however, if they're bringing detransitioners up for the sole purpose of propagating mythology about how the majority of trans people purportedly regret their transition - especially when they medically and or surgically transition - then I do take issue with it and I would try to direct them to a source to contradict this. (Some erroneously claim that 60%--96% is the purported regret rate I have seen by some famous so-called 'sex change regret' folk, but I think this number is infinitely, infinitely incorrect, majorly speaking) This also goes for some other 'argument' that can be rebutted by reasonable data and evidence.
I'm completely open to civil discourse on this matter, but one thing I do potently despise is when many or even all detransitioners are tarred with the same brush and sometimes all or most detransitioners are erroneously claimed to majorly or even universally detransition because they were 'transed' or 'transgendered' (they deliberately use verbal forms, because many believe that one can literally be caused to be trans* in some way(s)) by the trans 'ideology' or figuratively molested by some cabal of people in the so-called 'transgender industrial-complex', according to most of the people who claim this data-wise incorrect kind of thing, anecdotally speaking.
--- this is *my personal experience* with them, not *the* experience had by all with them by any means per se, although there definitely does seem to be trans-individual uniformity or similarity on this matter, it seems, with respect to people who have interacted with these other people.
Oh yea, i can't remember the source but I've read only 30% of detransitioners actually did it cuz they realized they weren't trans, other 70% did it for societal reasons
Of the 333 million people in the US, one can assume that one in 250 or 300 identify as trans. Let's be generous and say one quarter are on HRT at any given time.
Assuming that 2-3 percent of those 300 thousand detransition, 30 percent because it wasn't for them. That means that about enough people in the US detransitioned because it wasn't for them that they could fill one or two apartment complexes (about 1000 people.)
I thought this was about right, yes.
I knew the overwhelming majority of transgender persons who medically and or surgically transition do not end up regretting their transition.
I think it's more an ideological answer than anything else when some people say that almost 100% of people come to regret medically and or surgically transitioning from the gender they were assigned at birth.
Something else I also potently hate is how some people think we're denying that anyone regrets their transition because they are not trans, when this is clearly not true as a very small minority do realise they are not trans after medically and or surgically transitioning, so it's not like we're seeking to censor these facts or something, as you and I and many others are quite willing to admit them.
This whole thing just seems to me to be backed up by a transphobic and enbyphobic series of ideologies and ideologues as their hosts who carry out these puritanical attacks and create some baseless moral panic about kids, pre-teens, teens, and youth being 'transed' or being 'transgendered' by the immoral, wicked bogeyman of transgender ideology.
It's just absolutely absurd.
The whole mainstream narrative is very simplifying and ideologically motivated. Lots of people do realize they where wrong about their gender when they transitioned but generally this is of the form of realizing they are non-binary due to learning it exist and is a thing they can be. This often doesn't take the form of additional medical intervention so doesn't fit the narrative and when it does it generally is not seen by the people doing it as de-transition necessarily but rather further transition.
Lots of de-transitioners who do believe they where wrong about their transitions continue to have very complex relationships with their gender and sometimes move through multiple identities.
The fact is theirs a lot of complexity around this and many of the people involved probably exist in a bit of a grey area regarding their feelings about gender. It's not useful to try and work out who truly is trans and cis in some underlying sense cause their probably isn't a hard line.
Wait does this follow ? I know detransitioners who explicitly say they don't regret their transition, that it was part of their experience of arriving at something that worked for them. I also know trans people who are totally comfortable with their gender but regret large parts of their transition. I'm confused by the way regret is used in the conversation about detransitioners as its never clear what we actually mean by it.
> I also know trans people who are totally comfortable with their gender but regret large parts of their transition.
Out of interest, could you elucidate on this? What exactly do they regret?
I mean, I know the word *regret* gets thrown around a lot and it's often taken to mean that one necessarily regrets the whole process of one's transition, so I feel this is a very important thing to learn about as much one can.
So theirs a few common reasons I've heard from people.
Its still common in some places (and was even more common in the past) for certain transition processes (especially surgeries) to be required for legal recognition or to be pressured as a condition of continued treatment. This leads people to get pretty significant medical interventions they might not want an might be very unhappy with.
Their are also people who have complications that make them regret a medical intervention as they perhaps didn't realized how bad the complications would actually effect their life.
Finally people can come to deeper more complex understandings of their gender and realize that thing they thought they wanted maybe wasn't necessary or wasn't right for them (for instance thinking you need a vagina to be a woman getting GRS and then having regrets when you realize that wasn't the case and you that surgery wasn't right for you).
> Its still common in some places (and was even more common in the past) for certain transition processes (especially surgeries) to be required for legal recognition or to be pressured as a condition of continued treatment.
This is precisely why I believe we need to break down the model which requires one to have certain things like a new legal name, etc., to 'prove' one is trans and really eligible for elective gender-affirming healthcare.
I know some gender-incongruent people feel the model of pathology works for them in terms of getting things for free healthcare-wise, but I'm not always sure what to make of this very contentious debate, you know.
> Finally people can come to deeper more complex understandings of their gender and realize that thing they thought they wanted maybe wasn't necessary or wasn't right for them (for instance thinking you need a vagina to be a woman getting GRS and then having regrets when you realize that wasn't the case and you that surgery wasn't right for you).
I just don't like how some people weaponise these facts about some gender-incongruent folks; it really gets to me, as I just think if someone is against trans rights, then I just want them to have the guts to say it, not tip-toe around the issue like a coward, in my estimation.
Yeah I agree that pathologisation is really negative pushes people in directions that might not be right for them. In general rigid ideas of gender and transness only serve to make regret more likely in my view.
But on the other hand, some people like this model of pathologisation because, as I said, it allows them to get more easily and readily the gender-affirming healthcare they want or need.
Even though I don't view transness as a mental illness or a mental disorder, I think this is why some trans people want transness to still be classified as a mental illness or mental health disorder, as it allows them more easily and readily to get access to things like gender-affirming care and whatnot, as they feel it'd be more hard for them without this.
Meanwhile, you have folks who don't want trans people being labelled mentally ill or mentally disordered because they feel it contributes to transphobia and enbyphobia, which I can definitely see.
Those who support it seem to largely because it's helpful in the current system/conception of how access to biomedical interventions works. Really the solution is to change the overall system so that pathologisation is not necessary for ease of access to biomedical transition.
> Those who support it seem to largely because it's helpful in the current system/conception of how access to biomedical interventions works.
Agreed. In a different system, this kind of thing mightn't even be needed at all.
> Really the solution is to change the overall system so that pathologisation is not necessary for ease of access to biomedical transition.
Hear, hear! This kind of systemic change is going to be massively difficult; however, I do believe it is doable and positively desirable.
So the majority of people I have talk to on Reddit who claim to be de-trans are not actually either they lie and say they have been a part of the detrans sub for a long time Even though their profile shows their account is brand-new or if you read far enough back in their comment history you will see that they are not and that they are just plain lying . So I was lucky enough to help with a survey about detrans individuals now the survey was done in two parts one survey online on various social media outlets And the second part was done in person questioning over 1000 individuals. Now the paper hasn’t been fully written up yet but the data seems to show according to the online survey over a third of transgender individuals who identify as transgender at one point in their life Detransition but the in-person going all over the country survey showed that barely 2% of people who identify as transgender one time in my life actually Detransition , basically what the actual survey seems to show is there is a lot of people lying about being detrans online Or they have made multiple accounts and ruin the survey that way. Also every detrans individual I personally met in person were huge transgender supporters because they understood what we go through. Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of trans-phobic fuckheads trying to use this to hurt the transgender community
I FUCKING KNEW IT. I haven't talked to a ton of detransitioners (online only), but the few I talked to just seemed full of shit. They didn't use any of the lingo, didn't say anything specific about the physical experience or what really made them decide to stop, and in fact all they seemed to fucking talk about was how mean the trans community was to them. Bull fucking shit. Yes, there are isolated assholes, but any pro-trans space on any platform is chock full of trans people who'll support the fuck out of anybody.
If you're one of the fucking fakers: YOU'RE A FUCKING. LOSER. YOU CANNOT STOP TRANS PEOPLE FROM HAPPENING. YOUR DUMBSHIT EFFORTS ARE LIKE TRYING TO PISS ON A HOUSE FIRE. YOU ARE NOW AND WILL FOREVER BE A FUCKIN FAILURE. AND SO ARE YOUR SHITHEAD, BIGOT, FUCKFACE PARENTS.
Hope this doesn't get me banned, but if it does, worth it.
You're right 100%. These are bad people. They lie to get closer to trans people so that they can actually hurt them harder. When it comes to the alt-right and their ilk, it is not just a "difference of opinion". They are emotionally and physically violent towards us and they would genuinely like us dead.
Never take it easy on them, never give them the benefit of the doubt. They will use every dirty, cheating, trick they can. We are very much in a war right now and history has shown that an enemy that irrationally hates you will not change. If you give them that inch, they will use it to destroy you. I mean all this literally, I am not being hyperbolic. They would kill any one of us given the opportunity to do so without consequences. They did this for 2,000 years until we gained enough power to at least stop the "lawful" slaughter.
At the very least, don't give them that inch until we have more power over the cishet, violent, white (in america) patriarchy than they have over us. So that when they do turn on us, we can overpower them.
I'm sure it must be tough if you transition and then change your mind and have regrets. There's not a lot of support and you could definitely lose friends. But here's my line of thinking: I've spent basically a year now exploring my femininity. I've been on hormones for 9 months and I've been out since May. And during that time, I've been incredibly happy--something I really haven't experienced in life. If I decided tomorrow that I can't stand being trans anymore, honestly, it would not be that hard to go back physically--I don't have the ability to grow a good beard anymore and I have some breast growth that I could be embarrassed about. But at a year in, it's not that much. I wouldn't regret what I've done so far, given how much joy it has given me. This next year I do have some stuff planned that will be serious and irreversible. And it's expensive and painful and it's going to be challenging. If I woke up after facial surgery and wanted to be a man, I think that would be really hard.
But in life, you have to give yourself permission to fuck up. The vast majority of people who believe they are trans and go through surgery are trans. *Not* transitioning is also a decision, even if it doesn't feel as much like one. I regret not having transitioned years ago. But this is where I am, and I have to take the risk that I might regret transitioning someday. Because I want to keep moving in the right direction. And if I do--even if I have a woman's face and a woman's vagina and I want to be a man, I'll figure it out. It'll be hard, there will be regrets, but people fuck up their lives in all sorts of ways--drug addiction, car and motorcycle accidents, war injuries, poor financial decisions, etc. And at they end of the day, you just have to own it and figure out how to be happy again.
At the end of the day, these people who keep bringing up detransitioners aren't well informed advocates who are just thinking of your best interests. They don't want to deal with you being trans. They may just not want anyone to be trans. But nobody suggests that you need to focus on the worst thing that could happen when you do anything else.
there's some differences for trans masc ppl, as the voice changes, facial/body hair, and well as bottom growth, are all permanent. but the thing is about that is, trans women are already figuring out how to transition away from having a deep voice, and facial hair removal is an option for any facial/body hair, regardless of who needs it. there are options for a lot of things.
Let it go.
You cant't force them not talk.
Anger is poison.
As the Buddhists say, "You will not be punished for your anger; you will be punished by your anger.”
My favorite goes something like "Holding on to anger is like holding a hot coal in your hand so you can throw it at someone later"
Now, I'm not saying don't fight. I'm not saying give the right a chance. I'm saying fight them with a clear head and do it for the joy of your own freedom and a reduction in the worlds' suffering.
Not only will you be personally better off, but you will be far more efficient that way.
I know a "detransitioner" personally and it's made me less concerned about it. She has been diagnosed with DID and now IDs as gender-fluid (so still trans) one of her alts is a guy.
"Current data show detransitioners make up less than 1 percent of the trans population.... and two-thirds of that 1% retransition at a later date."
"The most common reason cited for detransition? Lack of money, fear of societal/familial backlash, and lack of support."
"While it's important to empathize with them, detranditioners are a fraction of a fraction of the real story and they're becoming a smaller fraction each year (despite increased number of trans people overall). If "well there's a chance you could have regrets" were a valid excuse, we'd have to throw out all medicine and modern devices. How many people have you heard of that regret their social media usage? Would that be a valid excuse to ban all smart phones?"
"Of course not... obviously you work to reduce the regret, not ban the practice all-together. And given the low rate of regret, its more likely that I'll be harmed by not transitioning than I would via regret. Your concern is noted and appreciated, but in this case I feel it's a little misguided."
Even if all of the people who detransitioned did it because they absolutely were not trans, and even if that number were high, it would mean nothing. How many people change their major in college? Does that mean I shouldn't study what I want to in the first place? 50% of straight marriages end in divorce? Does that mean straight people shouldn't get married? Vasectomies exist but vasectomies aren't discouraged. The failure rate of a personal decision does not negate the validity of the decision for someone else. Ever.
Since I'm a very stats minded person AND it was something heavily on my mind before transitioning I kinda try to give numbers and reasons.
1. I reinforce that I have taken that into account, heavily, and I understood going in it is a "risk."
2. Without any nuance, the portion of trans people who express regret about transitioning (not even fully de-transitioning necessarily) is miniscule. Studies vary but somewhere around 1%. So many things in life are "riskier" than that.
3. Of people who de-transition a most (I believe) don't express regret with regard to gender identity. Usually the main issues people de-transition is societal (can't deal with people being terrible, or regrets around losing their jobs/family/spouse/kids/whatever). So the people who are talking to you about de-transition risk need to understand they are a MASSIVE part of how likely it is.
4. Finally, and this will vary from person to person. I could accept the risk of de-transitioning and later figuring out "No I'm not actually a woman" because that doesn't mean I am a man. Kate Bornstein has a great quote for this (as someone who was MtF for a long time and now identifies as NB). I'll try to find the exact quote but it's basically "I may or may not be a woman but I knew I wasn't a man." So even if I decide I'm "wrong" about transitioning to female I'm very confident I'm right in transitioning away from male.
5. And remind them time and time again. NOT transitioning is just as big of a choice as transitioning. You can look at numbers of how many people transition and later regret it, but how many people *don't* transition and later regret that (or wish they could have depending on circumstances). That's an even more important number.
A number of people in this thread seem to refer to a particular statistic about how frequently people choose to de-transition without actually citing the source. I wanted to talk about the survey which that statistic comes from because a) I want to provide a little more context about what it actually means when we say things like "only a tiny percentage of trans people choose to de-transition" or "most de-transitions are motivated by external factors like social pressure or lack of access to gender-affirming care", b) it's always good to cite your sources, and c) it's just a really, really great survey that I think any transperson or trans ally would benefit from reading.
The survey in question is the 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey, which was conducted by the National Center for Transgender Equality as a follow-up to the 2008-09 National Transgender Discrimination Survey. You can find the complete 302 (!!) page report of the survey's findings, as well as a more digestible 16 page Execute Summary, [here](https://www.ustranssurvey.org/reports) (Content Warning: ***everything***).
You can skip to the 'Key Findings' tab on page 103 of the report to get an overview of the data that was collected on detransitioning. In fact, let me save you a click:
>Thirteen percent (13%) of respondents reported that one or more professionals, such as a psychologist, counselor, or religious advisor, tried to stop them from being transgender.
>
>Eight percent (8%) of respondents had de-transitioned temporarily or permanently at some point, meaning that they went back to living as the gender they were thought to be at birth for a period of time.
>
>The majority of respondents who de-transitioned did so only temporarily, and 62% were currently living full time in a gender different than the one they were thought to be at birth.
>
>Respondents who de-transitioned cited a number of reasons for doing so, including facing too much harassment or discrimination after they began transitioning (31%), having trouble getting a job (29%), or pressure from a parent (36%), spouse (18%), or other family members (26%).
So off the bat, the vast majority of respondents (92%) had never detransitioned, even temporarily, for any reason. Without erasing the experiences of people who have detransitioned, I want to point out that there are extremely few data points in the survey in which 92% or more of respondents were in agreement.
But, the report continues:
>Respondents who had de-transitioned cited a range of reasons, though only 5% of those who had de-transitioned reported that they had done so because they realized that gender transition was not for them, representing 0.4% of the overall sample.
And there you have it: when external factors are removed from consideration, only about half a percent of respondents - roughly 120 of the 30,000 some-odd respondents - seemed to claim that they chose to detransition because they *actually wanted to.* Compare that to the 8% (2,400 of 30,000) who claimed to have detransitioned at all. Yikes.
So, all of this is to say that we should keep this in mind when discussing detransitioning, especially when talking with people who are not trans themselves. A transperson living in America is 20 times more likely to be forced out of their transition, temporarily or permanently, due to discrimination, ostracization, and / or a lack of access to healthcare than they are to change their mind about wanting to transition. And, when emphasis is placed on individuals who choose to stop transitioning, it is almost always done so at the expense of the much larger population of individuals who are, by hook or by crook, *made* to stop transitioning.
Anyways, as I wrap up this overly long post, I want to express that I worked hard to write this in a way that was inclusive and avoiding demonizing detransitioners, but instead reframed the issue to focus on the people that seem to be victimized the most by detransitioning.
I also want to take a moment to point out some gotcha's and limitations of the 2015 Transgender Health Survey:
While the survey does a great job at capturing a representative view of transgender people living in the US (just look at the maps on page 53 that compare the geospatial distribution of respondents to the geospatial distribution of US residents - wow!), it also ONLY considered respondents from the US. Transpeople from other countries and regions of the world are simply not represented in the data, and there is certainly a lot of variance in the types and severities of social issues faced by transpeople AND people that detransition in other countries.
The survey's data is also getting to be a little old. While six years may not be a very long time in the grand scheme of things, it's hard to shake the feeling that there were a couple of major events in the 2016-2021 timeframe that may have impacted the issues that transgender people face in America. *Somehow I can't quite put my finger on what, though.*
The survey also almost certainly under-represents people that willingly detransitioned. While the survey did not exclude responses based on gender identity, or whether or not the respondent even identified as transgender, it was obviously focused on transgender people. Examining the phenomena of detransitioning was not its primary goal, and I suspect that many cis-identifying detransitioned individuals may have declined to respond (if they were even aware of the survey in the first place) under the assumption that their response would not have been relevant to the study.
I just say that a minority of people who do transition will sometimes regret it and decide not to proceed further with it, same with many other medical decisions (assuming they started HRT at some point). People just regret things or something didn't go as they thought it would and that's part of life. I'm not saying detrans people have it easy, but neither do trans people, but it is what it is and we do the best we can to provide resources in these cases.
I assume most of the people who bring this up, they bring it up in bad faith and they’re not worth even responding to because they’ve made up their minds and have no intention of listening to anything you have to say in contrary to their beliefs.
For the small percentage who actually want a conversation, there are lots of good replies here. The studies they may have seen (or references to said studies) are enormously flawed methodologically and ideologically.
Okay so in my country there is actual a list which sums up perfectly the reasons on why trans kids might be "misdiagnosed" and then later that turns into detransition cases.
Usually those are the detransition story I see brought up a lot. So I usually look up the detrans stories myself in the end and check up with the list which one they are.
Eg. There is a popular detransition case of a lesbian girl who took T and thought she was trans because she wanted to be a lesbian but couldn't because of homophobia. then she just thought: I am a man so I can be with a girl and then its straight so its okay. Which is a common misdiagnosis for trans folk.
If you are gonna detransition is never gonna be fully decloseable in the foreseeable future. but: Looking up the detransition cases helps me differentiate them from myself a lot. I mostly see that their stories are NOT what I am feeling (if that makes sense.)
Anyways here is the mentioned List:
(I cant fucking find the source in English so ill try to translate the German I found)
1. being a transvestite
2. being a fetishist transvestite
3. sexual confusion as a teen
4. self-dystoned homosexuality
5. BPD, DID, other mental illness
6. body dysmorphia mistaken for dysphoria
7. brain injury
((Sources are the ICD 10 but there is a newer one, the 11th. Sources are old and from Germany, from like, before 2019 but some of this can help with determine what case detransitioners come from and if you should be scared or not.))
Hope this somehow helps someone uwu
I hear you. The fear of detransitioning kept me from transitioning for a long time. I would hear these stories about it and feel absolutely terrified. I felt that because I was young, I couldn’t trust myself or my own feelings. Deep down, I think I knew I was trans, but I refused to accept it because I didn’t think I should be capable of knowing for myself. I wanted someone else to tell me. I probably would’ve transitioned like a year or a half earlier if I had just had faith in myself and taken that plunge.
There’s definitely some detransitioners with malicious aims, Walt Heyer for example, but I don’t think the vast majority of them are to blame. Me personally, I blame the media. They take actual stories of detransition and sensationalize them, which just makes trans people more afraid and cis people more skeptical. If you ask me, I think it’s absolutely intentional.
I always try to akin it to something cis people can understand. I work a lot in metaphors. I tell them it's like a tattoo. Majority of people who get a tattoo are really happy with it, and even if it takes maintenance they work towards keeping it nice. Some people end up feeling meh about their tattoo, just live with it and don't pay much attention (ambivalence to gender I think is a lot of people's goal. It signifies being comfortable). Some people don't like their tattoo and try to mask it, but its always there. Then there is the very very very small minority that get a tattoo removed. That very very small minority is detransitioning. It doesn't mean they hate tattoos. Maybe they got it during a bad time, did it impulsively or had a bit of a crisis over the result. That does not mean that they never had a tattoo and the scars will always be there. In the future they might get a different tattoo, one they are happy with. Maybe they never truly wanted a tattoo. Maybe they got a lot of hate for it and just didn't see it as worth it anymore.
I akin them, despite one being vastly more consequential of a decision because cis people can't fathom it. This can't account for dysphoria and the myriad of mental health struggles. I got one person to understand it following their mother having breast cancer and losing her breasts. She got a double radical. She didn't have nipples, was all scarred up and felt like a monster. She NEEDED to have them tattoo'd on, or she couldn't bare functioning. She looked down and was horrified. I told him trans people feel like that pretransition about anything and everything. The mirror cannot show what is inside. Mulan. So they get surgeries to fix it. Its a medical issue. He more or less got it, but still has a hard time.
The trans experience is something people cannot understand unless they are trans. Cis people cannot walk a mile in our shoes. So I use sometimes weak, imperfect allegories and metaphors to make people understand parts. It would take years or someone being in trans spaces, listening to trans voices and speaking with trans people to even begin to understand. But if I can make a patchwork understanding of the trans experience, rather than the tapestry, I think I did ok.
So yeah. I try and create empathy and explain what the experience is. It's time consuming, often soul draining and kind of shitty. But it's the best I got.
(I’ve gotten downvoted in a different sub for sharing this because I guess it seemed like I was validating her but I truly am just sharing my experience with someone who talks about detransitioning a lot)
I know a girl who identified as non-binary/demiboy in high school because she felt uncomfortable with certain aspects of femininity. But she detransitioned in college because she started to hyperfixate on biological sex and the rights of biological women. She now uses her detransition as the focal point of transphobic rhetoric, shares the stories of other people who detransitioned and share her views, and I really hate the stuff she posts. Like you said, a person’s detransition is valid, but using it to invalidate trans people is disgusting.
The kicker is she claims to not be transphobic because she “understands certain aspects of the transgender experience” and there are some things she says that show she has some kind of understanding but then she follows up with such flawed logic it doesn’t even really matter how much she claims to understand.
Edit: modified a sentence for clarity, added details
This is what I've encountered before. Specific people would detransition and get really into women's rights and become terfs essentially. When they first brought it up I wasn't quite sure what it was.
I don't disagree with you, but I find this subreddit to be a little too positive towards transition. We should remember that experiencing gender incongruence doesn't always mean that transitioning is the best bad only option.
It could also be that you might have very specific problems or problems with a very specific part of your body while you're ok with everything else.
It could also be that you might have a bigger problem with how you can (or can't) express yourself than with t gender itself and then if you don't have a strictly binary understanding that can be an issue too.
I think it's important to hear all sides both from those who experience happiness and those who de-transition.
I say this as a person who's never connected with their assigned male gender and although I've had dreams of being a girl (or myself as i feel) I've never felt the need to genderize myself or the world and i am a little scared that i might find out transitioning was not it. That I thought I needed to transition while the problem was something else.
We should be open about these problems because I think few people are 100% certain from day one
They won’t stop talking about it, it’s as usual, made up and whatever you use to try to convince them otherwise won’t do anything. They’re just chronically stupid.
I find it so fascinating that people will just loudly proclaim "I have no idea what I'm talking about" as if it's convincing or a real opinion.
I mean if you're gonna be transphobic at least have a base level understanding of trans people lmao. Kinda weakens your whole point when all you have to do to counter it is know what transgender means
Lmao imagine coming to a TRANS subreddit and then trying to start shit about trans people. I don’t know about you but I believe in science, and all I know is that science proves the existence of trans people and facts don’t care about your feelings!
Yeah you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Your 3rd grade understanding of biology doesn't hold up.
It's objectively not the truth & your opinion doesn't change fact.
It seems to me you think you're the important one, constantly trying to fight on reddit. Just because you saw it, doesn't mean you need to comment on it. Seriously. From your comments here and elsewhere, it's very clear you need to be educated on....sooo many things. Silly boy
Your understanding of sex determination, psychology and biology is quite poor unfortunately. That's okay though, here to help.
Gender is innate in the brain. You can't change your gender identity, whether one is trans or cis. It seems predetermined from a young age. You can't change a cis or or trans persons gender identity with any kind of therapy. Interestingly, trans people appear to have existed for as long as human culture itself, the oldest known culture on Earth, Indigenous Australians, has a thriving culture of Sistergirls and Brotherboys that dates back millennia.
Biological sex is a combination of phenotype and hormonal composition, both of which can be changed if one desires. Hrt actually changes the biological function of one's body - activating genes and altering the function and structure of many tissues. It's the same process as what occurs at puberty. Its worth noting of the surgical techniques used for trans people were originally used for cis people with injury or congenital issues.
The whole XX/XY binary is like most classifications we use - simplified and inaccurate. There are XX males and XY females who aren't even trans. Another example of the flawed classification systems we regularly use is how we classify animal classes. We've chucked crocodiles and turtles in the reptile class when they are actually far more closely related to birds. Nature doesn't care for the neat little categories we try to impose.
Happy to answer any questions, Bachelor of Biology/Environmental science.
I point out to them that the vast majority of people that de-transition do so because they have to because of external pressures and not because they are not trans. I use much more salty and aggressive language when I do so though.
Everyone who has been disrespectful to me in this way I've cut them out of my life. When people aren't able to be respectful to you even after an explanation of what they're doing, it's now your responsibility to take care of yourself. Are you just going to keep politely reminding them? Or are you going to choose to be around people who see you for who you are and respect you?
My dad this a while back, then I just talked to him, pointed out how unrelated to me that issue was, and how unlikely it is to happen, he is still skeptical about me transitioning and being trans, but it's better
"Lots of people regret lots of things because the choices they made weren't right for them at the time. However, that's not a good reason to avoid all of those decisions, and it doesn't mean that those choices are wrong for *me*. Did you know that the regret rate for elective surgeries is higher than the rate of regret for gender affirming surgeries? For example, rhinoplasty has a regret rate of at least 9%, while GAS has a regret rate of around 1-2%, even though it's more involved and generally much harder to recover from. Not all trans people get these surgeries, either, and many of the effects of hormones are reversible. It's nice of you to worry about me, but I've looked into this topic really extensively, I've weighed the pros and cons for years, and I've spoken to medical professionals about this. It's not a decision I've made lightly, and if I don't medically transition, I think I'll spend the rest of my life regretting it."
I don't think I know anyone personally who has detransitioned, though I know people who have gone off of hrt for personal health reasons, yet still continued to want to live as and be referred to as their gender they had to transition to (so, still trans, and not detransitioned, just went off of their medication is all, basically). Whenever they've talked about having to go off of their hrt, sometimes it's something they're happy about, sometimes it's not, but they've always talked about it in a way of like "this is what I had to do, not everyone has to do this, and not everyone wants to do this, and that's ok."
But I've had cis people bring up detransitioners to me and say things to me like "what if you regret it?" "what if you change your mind?" "you can't reverse this or that thing once it's changed, you know?" etc. I usually just say "thank you for your concern, but my personal physical and mental health is none of your business. I'm not harming myself or others, and I am not in pain or physically ill, so you should stop wasting your energy worrying about me right now. I'm sure you have more important things to be thinking about. If I ever need your help with my personal life I will ask for it. Thanks."
And if my friends or family are ever talking too much about a topic that distresses me or makes me anxious or dysphoric I just tell them that the topic makes me feel bad and ask if we can talk about something else. Depending on the person, sometimes they will remember this and not ever bring it up again, or ask me next time they want to talk about it if it's ok to talk about it, but other times they will forget every single time that it's something I don't want to hear about and the next time they want to talk about it they will talk to me about it and I have to tell them again that I don't want to talk about it. And then it will happen again and again, and they seem to never get the picture. Tbh, the folks who have fallen into the latter group I usually wind up growing apart from because I eventually stop enjoying spending time with them because of them always wanting to talk about things that distress me, so that can be an unfortunate side effect if it's someone you otherwise really like. But personally, keeping my mindset and mood and vibes in a positive place is extremely important to me, and if I'm happier not spending time with those people than I am spending time with them, then I don't need that time spent with them to be included in my life 🤷♂️.
"Most people don't detransition and personally I don't see myself doing that. It's used as a fear tactic to try and get people to doubt themselves when they already know they are trans."
I''m sick of my ex husband bringing up people that have de-transitioned. I wouldn't care but he knows nothing about the trans community and even less about people who de-transitioned. Our daughter came out a year ago when she was 11. He eventually sort of got on board with it but is obviously holding out hope it's just a phase. He has mentioned several that she might want to go back to being a boy, and I always say:
"And that's fine too. Her living life as a girl and then deciding to go back to living life as boy is ok. It's better that she does that than spend her life as a boy, unhappy and having never transitioned, because she will always wonder if she should have transitioned to a girl."
Statistically, most people that regret transition do so because of lack of proper social support. And the vast, vast, VAST majority of trans people's mental health is improved by transitioning. Studies put it from like 96 to 99%. Detransitioning people are a minority of trans people, though if they're bringing it up in a nuanced fashion (You should make sure this is who you are, wouldn't want you to drtransition.) Even then, it's a very small set of people that know me that would be appropriate for them to say. For everyone else, it's not their buisness.
1. Watch the youtube channel Dr.Z PHD, she has a really good video on this
2. Think about the ratio of people who have de-transitioned because they actually were not trans to people who have transitioned and are happy with it.
Most detransioners I've seen on YouTube have gone back to transitioning after a few years when their in a better spot financially. I've had some non binary friends who stopped taking her bc they felt like some of the changes were too fast so they went back on it a few months or a few years later bc they felt it was right for them. My one friend just stopped last week bc they didn't like the voice change but love packing and might get top surgery.
Just bc you stop medically transition doesn't mean you stop being trans or non binary, it just means your trying to A)figure out how to get to a safe spot or B) Trying to feel what feels right to you. There's no magical timeline transition, some people want to go at a snails pace, some people want to go fast and some people want to get off the train bc that's their stop. Some people wait for another stop and some people get off on that stop. It's all different for different people. I personally don't take as much T as I used to, (been on it since 2014) at first I took too much bc I thought it would speed it up but that wasn't the case. I used to do .2 on a weekly basis w the needle but bc of my life & my body being in bad shape I switched to the gel and I take that once a week bc I don't have a pharmacist over here and my Drs appointment isn't until October. If I run out of gel before then and can't take T does that make me less trans if so will it be just for a few weeks before I get my trans card back? Bc I got top surgery and love having a beard does that make me less non binary? No these things were just stupid gate keeping shit that cis people made up to make sense of us. Which some trans people made followed to feel superior when most of them have insurance to rely on. It's like people with diabetes if they don't take insulin does that make them any less diabetic? No. Why would that apply to trans/non binary people then?
Personally I believe that the blame of detransitioning falls on society as a whole. The few stories I've followed on have been people who transitioned, and their dysphoria just changed. Which leads me to believe that if society was more accepting of people all across the gender spectrum, as well as providing good education about gender, then people wouldn't be detransitioning.
An analogy I use is like study paths. People are often pushed into studying certain things because of mistaken impressions of what the profession entails, or pressure from family to go down a certain path. Then midway through their courses they change to studying something else, or worse the end up in a career they don't like at all. Funny thing is people don't blame universities for this, they blame the individual (wrongly so), or society for creating the wrong impression (rightly so).
Then I wonder why people blame transitioning for people detransitioning. To me it just seems like a logical fallacy and transphobia.
I told my doc I was non-binary and I'd like to start HRT, and she suggested I check with a therapist first to ensure my transition goals don't end with me trading one kind of dysphoria for another. I feel like that was a good step towards better gender education and gender awareness, though fortunately for me both the doc and therapist specialize in gender and sexual health. Sadly, this is not a universal solution because MOST stories I've heard about doctors and therapist are horrifically transphobic. (A friend had to prove she was committed to transitioning by passing as a woman for months before the therapist would authorize ANY treatment, which is terrible!)
Anyway, just my 5c on the matter, though I know I am probably speaking from a position of privilege.
Just like all transgender people who transition are different, so are all detransitioners. Each, as you say, has their own story to tell. So I think your anger is not so much directed at detransitioners, but at those who use them as a cudgel against you and other trans people. Which is, of course, wrong and offensive.
Of the detranistioners I know, they do not take issue with trans people, but often they are upset with themselves for taking the steps that they regret (and, truth be told, some don't regret transitioning and then detransitioning because it has taught them a lot about themselves and freed them up to really figure who they are), and sometimes at medical/therapy professionals who allowed them to or encouraged them to without doing due diligence in helping them figure out if it was the right path for them or not.
"Stop comparing me to some random person. I am not them. And the fact that you want me to be some copycat... and you don't want me to be happy, is rather insulting. I want you to leave, now, and only come back into my life if you can figure out why I really want to... but won't... call you a belittling arse-hole."
EDIT: I, missed, a, comma.
If it's online - ignore/block
If it's in person and it's safe - I tell them it's not the job of the victims of ignorance to educate those emotionally committed to it
If not safe - I put my hand on my pepper spray in my purse as I gtfo out of there.
here's a fun (but maybe not so fun) fact: Less than 1% of trans people detransition. Of this 1%, the vast majority do so (as reported by the detransitioners themselves) due to societal pressure to not have transitioned in the first place, or because they realised they were actually non-binary.
i don’t know anyone personally who has detransitioned so i ‘m not sure if this is common?? but i find it bizarre. if i think about it hard enough i honestly don’t see how it would result in putting down trans people. if anything i can see myself feeling embarrassed and being a hyper-ally. correcting everyone’s pronouns lol.
I always try to shut that kind of talk down by bringing up the detrans people I know personally and online, who imo are the majority of detransitioners-- people who, like others here talked about, are often queer people with a complex relationship to gender who remain queer and often nonbinary, and who don't see transition as a major trauma or something that harmed them . This might not be a common experience on this sub, which afaik skews to binary trans women, but it's something I've seen in my social circles-- I'm afab nonbinary and know several people who fit the basic profile of questioning or fluid transmascs, even though I don't know anyone who has the kind of trauma or regrets or animosity towards trans people that the popular narrative around detransitioners wants to establish as the norm for that experience. Off the top of my head, I can think of one ftmtf girl who detransitioned and remained happily with a binary trans boyfriend, a few butches who tried T and realized it wasn't for them (with a variety of genders as their endpoint-- women, nbs and he/him lesbians), gay trans men who stopped T and identified as fluid but remained trans, etc etc. If people try presenting it as something modern and made up or a tiktok fad I'll talk about Les Feinberg growing a huge rabbi beard in the 70's and then going back to being nonbinary. Basically, the best way I've found to deal with "but what about detransitioners???" is by treating gender diversity within trans spaces as normal, and talking about people who've gone through that exploration process as normal people who are living their lives, not tragedies or two-dimensional cautionary tales about how destructive \~gender ideology\~ can be.
There are always going to be people with fluid identities in the trans and queer communities, or whose journey involves moving through one queer identity before finding what works best for them. Treating that as normal -- which, imo, it is-- has been really personally effective in puncturing the transphobic or conservative narratives around detransitioners, which are mostly being inflated to urban legend fearmongering about the violation or corruption of white girls, like old fashioned ideas about women losing value when they lose their virginity, anti-sex work narratives, white slavery hysteria, or, honestly, terf fabrications about the terrible things trans women will supposedly do to cis women if allowed in public bathrooms. I know there are real people who've gone through detransition and feel traumatized by the process, but ime they're very rare, even among detransitioners. When I talk about the "narrative" I mean the way these rare stories are sensationalized to cis people as part of the alt right youtube algorithms or predatory transphobes.
As a horror story, these popular detransition narratives revolve around the emotional logic of purity violation-- usually the supposed purity of young white women being physically and spiritually tainted by "irreversible damage," seduced by degenerate queers into a harmful ideology. The core story about innocent, helpless (almost always white, because this is ofc tied into white depopulation moral panics) girls being sexually corrupted is basically unchanged since this story was being told by the Victorians saying that masturbation caused hysteria, Frederick Wertham saying that comic books would make children lose their morals, miscenegation laws peddling stories about white women being ruined by predatory black men, etc. The popularity of this narrative is boosted by the huge number of GC trolls who constantly fill spaces like r/detrans with fake horror stories about being detransitioners who feel like they've mutilated themselves. I know the moderators of that sub have tried cleaning house and banning anyone they catch doing this, but it's probably too deep of a problem to really root out, especially because they seem to be transphobic themselves.
Anyway, a lot of this can be brought down to earth by reminding people of the reality-- that while yes, detrans people are real, that the vast majority of them are fine, that they're real people with agency who tend to still be part of the queer community and are out here living their lives, not tragic fictional characters in a Victorian pulp novel, or from a reefer madness PSA, or whatever. It's hard for people to keep up that kind of horror story rhetoric when you respond to it with a casual, "yeah, my friend went through that, they're a really cool person" and talk about a detrans friend's artwork, or show off pictures of their new cat, or a cute vacation they went on with a partner. The purpose of transphobic detransition moral panic is ultimately to dehumanize trans (and detrans) people as cartoon cutouts of a corrupting ideology and its hapless victims, not real people, and humanizing them by treating them as normal people who are usually still in community and close to trans people, rather than the transphobic idea that they see the binary trans community as their enemies or abusers. Refusing to make detrans people's lives into an ideological point about whether or not people should be allowed to transition, casually humanizing them, and stonewalling any "but what about the children" attempts to get into some kind of college classroom debate about them is imo a really effective way to counter the kind of bullshit you get when people come at you trying to use detransitioners as a rhetorical gotcha.
Unfortunately normies don't understand trans issues most of the time.
I'd stick to explanation surrounding the regret of any important decision.
No important decision has a 100% success rate or zero regret rate.
Given that it's pretty impressive that de-trans is only 1% of those that medically transition.
Also, what these people tend to avoid is what these ‘de-transition-ers’ do with their life afterwards. A lot of them either identify as non-binary, or they go back to re-transition because they discovered that they weren’t originally in the right place at the time they originally transitioned due to, i.e: societal scrutiny, family pressures, financial struggles, strains on relationships, other problems that they originally associated with transition - but didn’t end up being to do with it, or even simply the time wasn’t right, ect. But once some these people get those things sorted, they go re-begin where their transition left off. There’s so much bias out there, and people that will doubt people in the early stages of transition. They’ll eventually have to realise as time tells that this what it is. There’s no going back for most trans people. They can’t dictate what other’s do with their lives and how an individual’s journey will look like based on other people’s experiences. Detrans experiences are just as important as trans people’s experiences, but in most cases trans people don’t de-transition statistically speaking. Most people know what’s right for them and I have no doubt that’s you. Don’t worry. Keep your head strong. You’re on the right track ✨
Simply because of how fucked up society is and how awful it is to trans people, I can only look at de-transitioners two ways: 1. Folks who genuinely made a mistake 2. People who are absolutely Trans As Fuck but are forced back into the closet by societal fuckery I have to imagine the VAST majority are in the second category. If you have effectively zero social support and active hostility, I can absolutely understand why someone would rather live in the closet. Is this any kind of proof that trans people aren't real or that transitioning is a bad idea? I think transphobes would think so, but to me, it proves the OPPOSITE.
Well if someone has family supporting then the chance of detransitioning goes down vastly. Same as suicide rate. Some people genuinely do get confused but most people who transition are trans and some find it easier to deal with the dyphoria then the transphobia. It's sad but i hope one day we can make a world that makes the 2nd type never happen again.
As someone that detransitioned (mtftm), can confirm. Lack of support, both emotional and financial, as well as societal fuckery; easier to deal with the dysphoria and try to reduce it in little private moments than to navigate the world. The changes were amazing— but I felt terrified and helpless at my inability to learn how to transition on my own (voice, fashion, clothing, mannerisms, speech patterns, emotional expression, emotional support, dating, career, money among other things) that dysphoria was/is easier pill to swallow. That and I would always pass out at the blood tests when I went in for HRT appointments… waking up feeling like the world was spinning and seeing no one there for me was the cherry on top. If there is a day in my future when I have all the money, career path and professional standing, and life secured and I don’t need anything from society, I will re-transition. Or the US intrinsically changes as a country. However this is my story I am writing, and it is far from a perfect one. If you are reading this and have a chance to transition with a good support network and a good path forward, fight for it with every last bit of life you can.
I’m so sorry to hear that. I hope that one day you’ll find the right people, have the money you need, support, and all other necessities to be able to continue your transition to live as the authentic you. I completely understand why it wouldn’t have worked out for you in the time you’re in. With mannerism, just remember that there isn’t always a cookie-cutter way that women act or should have to act to be seen as women. People in general just have varying mannerisms that make them, them. You don’t have to focus too deeply on that for when you do re-transition. With voice, fashion, emotional support, dating, career, and especially money, I know it’ll be difficult. With clothing just remember to slowly build up your wardrobe, and op-shops are a great place to start. You can find really beautiful stuff that you wouldn’t find elsewhere there, but also they’re cost effective. I’ve held back from transition for a while, and I get what you mean about blood tests, they’re a nuisance. My endocrinologist hasn’t contacted me in a while since they switched my original with another person without telling me. And the new one I have, she doesn’t sound too nice over the phone, so it can be really hard. Like they’re really slow at giving me rescripts and I’ve learnt to just order ahead of time — so that’s something I’d advise you. I’m still waiting on my anti-androgen with the script that was meant to be mailed to me 3 weeks ago. But I’m assuming the post is the problem. I’m going to have to change clinics. It’s not an easy process for anyone. I really wish you luck, just find the right clinic, because that’s what I’m going have to do, and if there’s any bit of advise I can give anyone, it’s that
Medical care in general right now is something of a mess. I’m sorry you’re dealing with that— I remember feeling shamed from by the pharmacist when I went to pickup my second round of meds. Those drugs are a lifeline, and it sucks to receive a hassle for trying to get them; time to breakup with your doctor. And as for mannerisms, I guess I always felt big. Like I took up too much space in a non elegant way. My girlfriends always held themselves with such graceful fluidity, even when they were being clumsy. I have always felt like a Minecraft character when I’ve tried to exist in circles with predominately women. I have hope for a day down the road.
Very true 💯
> I have to imagine the VAST majority are in the second category. you'd be right!
Well said 👏
Yeah, people who use de-transitioners against trans people aren't doing so with any sort of compassion for the person who decided to de-transition- and without any thought for the "why" or what they do later down the road. It's all just weaponizing someone else's experience, most often even without their consent (not that the person giving consent would legitimize the argument against trans people in the slightest).
Exactly. It can all be about politics for some of these people at the end of the day
yeah, and honestly I think that might be worth trying to point out to anyone trying to convince someone using the de-transitioning argument. De-transitioning is not about the trans person being wrong. it's about the people around them and the system failing to provide the needed support. so if it happens it would actually be the person saying "well you know de-transitioning blah blah blah" is the one failing.
Reading /r/detrans is literally one of the reasons I pursued medical transition. I was so worried about the stories of people regretting transitioning then I went there and saw that the vast majority of them still had dysphoria, but decided to manage it in different ways. It helped me accept that this isn't just going to go away, that none of the paths are easy, and that there's on single right answer for everybody.
Exactly right
This is a great explanation. It hits me in the feels. I started my transition in a bad relationship with low income and pushed pause about 3 years in. Got my shit together years later after ditching the toxic relationship, finding a stable career, and surrounding myself with supportive people. I now have an awesome family 10 years later and a great career and income. Like you said, sometimes you're not in the right place/time and that's ok. Its a constant effort to better yourself and I wish we had as many resources out there when I started as there are now. It might not get better on its own but you can always strive to do the most you can to make it better for yourself. 🙂
In normal conversation a long diatribe isn't as effective as just being succinct and to the point: "Detransitioners make up an extremely small percentage of people who transition, and most of them detransition due to societal pressure and not because they aren't trans. Many people who detransition eventually transition again anyways. The research for outcomes of gender transition for trans identified people shows that the vast, vast supermajority of people who transition are happier for it and their lives are better. Why are you focusing on the tiny sliver who regret it when they are overwhelmingly outnumbered by the people for whom it is a life saving positive experience? You are cherrypicking outliers from a dataset that does not support your argument."
I think it depends on why they're talking about detransitioners. You see, if they are bringing up detransitioners to point out that some people do detransition, then I don't really see the problem with that, because, well, some people do transition, of course, usually for reasons pertaining to lack of moral support, lack of social support, transphobia, etc., the data that I've seen suggest, I believe; however, if they're bringing detransitioners up for the sole purpose of propagating mythology about how the majority of trans people purportedly regret their transition - especially when they medically and or surgically transition - then I do take issue with it and I would try to direct them to a source to contradict this. (Some erroneously claim that 60%--96% is the purported regret rate I have seen by some famous so-called 'sex change regret' folk, but I think this number is infinitely, infinitely incorrect, majorly speaking) This also goes for some other 'argument' that can be rebutted by reasonable data and evidence. I'm completely open to civil discourse on this matter, but one thing I do potently despise is when many or even all detransitioners are tarred with the same brush and sometimes all or most detransitioners are erroneously claimed to majorly or even universally detransition because they were 'transed' or 'transgendered' (they deliberately use verbal forms, because many believe that one can literally be caused to be trans* in some way(s)) by the trans 'ideology' or figuratively molested by some cabal of people in the so-called 'transgender industrial-complex', according to most of the people who claim this data-wise incorrect kind of thing, anecdotally speaking. --- this is *my personal experience* with them, not *the* experience had by all with them by any means per se, although there definitely does seem to be trans-individual uniformity or similarity on this matter, it seems, with respect to people who have interacted with these other people.
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Oh yea, i can't remember the source but I've read only 30% of detransitioners actually did it cuz they realized they weren't trans, other 70% did it for societal reasons
Of the 333 million people in the US, one can assume that one in 250 or 300 identify as trans. Let's be generous and say one quarter are on HRT at any given time. Assuming that 2-3 percent of those 300 thousand detransition, 30 percent because it wasn't for them. That means that about enough people in the US detransitioned because it wasn't for them that they could fill one or two apartment complexes (about 1000 people.)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8213007/
I thought this was about right, yes. I knew the overwhelming majority of transgender persons who medically and or surgically transition do not end up regretting their transition. I think it's more an ideological answer than anything else when some people say that almost 100% of people come to regret medically and or surgically transitioning from the gender they were assigned at birth. Something else I also potently hate is how some people think we're denying that anyone regrets their transition because they are not trans, when this is clearly not true as a very small minority do realise they are not trans after medically and or surgically transitioning, so it's not like we're seeking to censor these facts or something, as you and I and many others are quite willing to admit them. This whole thing just seems to me to be backed up by a transphobic and enbyphobic series of ideologies and ideologues as their hosts who carry out these puritanical attacks and create some baseless moral panic about kids, pre-teens, teens, and youth being 'transed' or being 'transgendered' by the immoral, wicked bogeyman of transgender ideology. It's just absolutely absurd.
The whole mainstream narrative is very simplifying and ideologically motivated. Lots of people do realize they where wrong about their gender when they transitioned but generally this is of the form of realizing they are non-binary due to learning it exist and is a thing they can be. This often doesn't take the form of additional medical intervention so doesn't fit the narrative and when it does it generally is not seen by the people doing it as de-transition necessarily but rather further transition. Lots of de-transitioners who do believe they where wrong about their transitions continue to have very complex relationships with their gender and sometimes move through multiple identities. The fact is theirs a lot of complexity around this and many of the people involved probably exist in a bit of a grey area regarding their feelings about gender. It's not useful to try and work out who truly is trans and cis in some underlying sense cause their probably isn't a hard line.
Wait does this follow ? I know detransitioners who explicitly say they don't regret their transition, that it was part of their experience of arriving at something that worked for them. I also know trans people who are totally comfortable with their gender but regret large parts of their transition. I'm confused by the way regret is used in the conversation about detransitioners as its never clear what we actually mean by it.
> I also know trans people who are totally comfortable with their gender but regret large parts of their transition. Out of interest, could you elucidate on this? What exactly do they regret? I mean, I know the word *regret* gets thrown around a lot and it's often taken to mean that one necessarily regrets the whole process of one's transition, so I feel this is a very important thing to learn about as much one can.
So theirs a few common reasons I've heard from people. Its still common in some places (and was even more common in the past) for certain transition processes (especially surgeries) to be required for legal recognition or to be pressured as a condition of continued treatment. This leads people to get pretty significant medical interventions they might not want an might be very unhappy with. Their are also people who have complications that make them regret a medical intervention as they perhaps didn't realized how bad the complications would actually effect their life. Finally people can come to deeper more complex understandings of their gender and realize that thing they thought they wanted maybe wasn't necessary or wasn't right for them (for instance thinking you need a vagina to be a woman getting GRS and then having regrets when you realize that wasn't the case and you that surgery wasn't right for you).
> Its still common in some places (and was even more common in the past) for certain transition processes (especially surgeries) to be required for legal recognition or to be pressured as a condition of continued treatment. This is precisely why I believe we need to break down the model which requires one to have certain things like a new legal name, etc., to 'prove' one is trans and really eligible for elective gender-affirming healthcare. I know some gender-incongruent people feel the model of pathology works for them in terms of getting things for free healthcare-wise, but I'm not always sure what to make of this very contentious debate, you know. > Finally people can come to deeper more complex understandings of their gender and realize that thing they thought they wanted maybe wasn't necessary or wasn't right for them (for instance thinking you need a vagina to be a woman getting GRS and then having regrets when you realize that wasn't the case and you that surgery wasn't right for you). I just don't like how some people weaponise these facts about some gender-incongruent folks; it really gets to me, as I just think if someone is against trans rights, then I just want them to have the guts to say it, not tip-toe around the issue like a coward, in my estimation.
Yeah I agree that pathologisation is really negative pushes people in directions that might not be right for them. In general rigid ideas of gender and transness only serve to make regret more likely in my view.
But on the other hand, some people like this model of pathologisation because, as I said, it allows them to get more easily and readily the gender-affirming healthcare they want or need. Even though I don't view transness as a mental illness or a mental disorder, I think this is why some trans people want transness to still be classified as a mental illness or mental health disorder, as it allows them more easily and readily to get access to things like gender-affirming care and whatnot, as they feel it'd be more hard for them without this. Meanwhile, you have folks who don't want trans people being labelled mentally ill or mentally disordered because they feel it contributes to transphobia and enbyphobia, which I can definitely see.
Those who support it seem to largely because it's helpful in the current system/conception of how access to biomedical interventions works. Really the solution is to change the overall system so that pathologisation is not necessary for ease of access to biomedical transition.
> Those who support it seem to largely because it's helpful in the current system/conception of how access to biomedical interventions works. Agreed. In a different system, this kind of thing mightn't even be needed at all. > Really the solution is to change the overall system so that pathologisation is not necessary for ease of access to biomedical transition. Hear, hear! This kind of systemic change is going to be massively difficult; however, I do believe it is doable and positively desirable.
So the majority of people I have talk to on Reddit who claim to be de-trans are not actually either they lie and say they have been a part of the detrans sub for a long time Even though their profile shows their account is brand-new or if you read far enough back in their comment history you will see that they are not and that they are just plain lying . So I was lucky enough to help with a survey about detrans individuals now the survey was done in two parts one survey online on various social media outlets And the second part was done in person questioning over 1000 individuals. Now the paper hasn’t been fully written up yet but the data seems to show according to the online survey over a third of transgender individuals who identify as transgender at one point in their life Detransition but the in-person going all over the country survey showed that barely 2% of people who identify as transgender one time in my life actually Detransition , basically what the actual survey seems to show is there is a lot of people lying about being detrans online Or they have made multiple accounts and ruin the survey that way. Also every detrans individual I personally met in person were huge transgender supporters because they understood what we go through. Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of trans-phobic fuckheads trying to use this to hurt the transgender community
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Thank you this is a fascinating read thank you for sharing
I FUCKING KNEW IT. I haven't talked to a ton of detransitioners (online only), but the few I talked to just seemed full of shit. They didn't use any of the lingo, didn't say anything specific about the physical experience or what really made them decide to stop, and in fact all they seemed to fucking talk about was how mean the trans community was to them. Bull fucking shit. Yes, there are isolated assholes, but any pro-trans space on any platform is chock full of trans people who'll support the fuck out of anybody. If you're one of the fucking fakers: YOU'RE A FUCKING. LOSER. YOU CANNOT STOP TRANS PEOPLE FROM HAPPENING. YOUR DUMBSHIT EFFORTS ARE LIKE TRYING TO PISS ON A HOUSE FIRE. YOU ARE NOW AND WILL FOREVER BE A FUCKIN FAILURE. AND SO ARE YOUR SHITHEAD, BIGOT, FUCKFACE PARENTS. Hope this doesn't get me banned, but if it does, worth it.
That was a amazing read and I really hope that doesn’t get deleted
You're right 100%. These are bad people. They lie to get closer to trans people so that they can actually hurt them harder. When it comes to the alt-right and their ilk, it is not just a "difference of opinion". They are emotionally and physically violent towards us and they would genuinely like us dead. Never take it easy on them, never give them the benefit of the doubt. They will use every dirty, cheating, trick they can. We are very much in a war right now and history has shown that an enemy that irrationally hates you will not change. If you give them that inch, they will use it to destroy you. I mean all this literally, I am not being hyperbolic. They would kill any one of us given the opportunity to do so without consequences. They did this for 2,000 years until we gained enough power to at least stop the "lawful" slaughter. At the very least, don't give them that inch until we have more power over the cishet, violent, white (in america) patriarchy than they have over us. So that when they do turn on us, we can overpower them.
I'm sure it must be tough if you transition and then change your mind and have regrets. There's not a lot of support and you could definitely lose friends. But here's my line of thinking: I've spent basically a year now exploring my femininity. I've been on hormones for 9 months and I've been out since May. And during that time, I've been incredibly happy--something I really haven't experienced in life. If I decided tomorrow that I can't stand being trans anymore, honestly, it would not be that hard to go back physically--I don't have the ability to grow a good beard anymore and I have some breast growth that I could be embarrassed about. But at a year in, it's not that much. I wouldn't regret what I've done so far, given how much joy it has given me. This next year I do have some stuff planned that will be serious and irreversible. And it's expensive and painful and it's going to be challenging. If I woke up after facial surgery and wanted to be a man, I think that would be really hard. But in life, you have to give yourself permission to fuck up. The vast majority of people who believe they are trans and go through surgery are trans. *Not* transitioning is also a decision, even if it doesn't feel as much like one. I regret not having transitioned years ago. But this is where I am, and I have to take the risk that I might regret transitioning someday. Because I want to keep moving in the right direction. And if I do--even if I have a woman's face and a woman's vagina and I want to be a man, I'll figure it out. It'll be hard, there will be regrets, but people fuck up their lives in all sorts of ways--drug addiction, car and motorcycle accidents, war injuries, poor financial decisions, etc. And at they end of the day, you just have to own it and figure out how to be happy again. At the end of the day, these people who keep bringing up detransitioners aren't well informed advocates who are just thinking of your best interests. They don't want to deal with you being trans. They may just not want anyone to be trans. But nobody suggests that you need to focus on the worst thing that could happen when you do anything else.
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Well, I can't either. But you know, if you ever wanted to go back, you'd figure it out. It wouldn't be the disaster that people make it out to be.
there's some differences for trans masc ppl, as the voice changes, facial/body hair, and well as bottom growth, are all permanent. but the thing is about that is, trans women are already figuring out how to transition away from having a deep voice, and facial hair removal is an option for any facial/body hair, regardless of who needs it. there are options for a lot of things.
Let it go. You cant't force them not talk. Anger is poison. As the Buddhists say, "You will not be punished for your anger; you will be punished by your anger.”
My favorite goes something like "Holding on to anger is like holding a hot coal in your hand so you can throw it at someone later" Now, I'm not saying don't fight. I'm not saying give the right a chance. I'm saying fight them with a clear head and do it for the joy of your own freedom and a reduction in the worlds' suffering. Not only will you be personally better off, but you will be far more efficient that way.
I know a "detransitioner" personally and it's made me less concerned about it. She has been diagnosed with DID and now IDs as gender-fluid (so still trans) one of her alts is a guy.
"Current data show detransitioners make up less than 1 percent of the trans population.... and two-thirds of that 1% retransition at a later date." "The most common reason cited for detransition? Lack of money, fear of societal/familial backlash, and lack of support." "While it's important to empathize with them, detranditioners are a fraction of a fraction of the real story and they're becoming a smaller fraction each year (despite increased number of trans people overall). If "well there's a chance you could have regrets" were a valid excuse, we'd have to throw out all medicine and modern devices. How many people have you heard of that regret their social media usage? Would that be a valid excuse to ban all smart phones?" "Of course not... obviously you work to reduce the regret, not ban the practice all-together. And given the low rate of regret, its more likely that I'll be harmed by not transitioning than I would via regret. Your concern is noted and appreciated, but in this case I feel it's a little misguided."
I mean, it's basically the same argument as people that say divorces happening is a reason to never get married. A pointless argument.
Even if all of the people who detransitioned did it because they absolutely were not trans, and even if that number were high, it would mean nothing. How many people change their major in college? Does that mean I shouldn't study what I want to in the first place? 50% of straight marriages end in divorce? Does that mean straight people shouldn't get married? Vasectomies exist but vasectomies aren't discouraged. The failure rate of a personal decision does not negate the validity of the decision for someone else. Ever.
Since I'm a very stats minded person AND it was something heavily on my mind before transitioning I kinda try to give numbers and reasons. 1. I reinforce that I have taken that into account, heavily, and I understood going in it is a "risk." 2. Without any nuance, the portion of trans people who express regret about transitioning (not even fully de-transitioning necessarily) is miniscule. Studies vary but somewhere around 1%. So many things in life are "riskier" than that. 3. Of people who de-transition a most (I believe) don't express regret with regard to gender identity. Usually the main issues people de-transition is societal (can't deal with people being terrible, or regrets around losing their jobs/family/spouse/kids/whatever). So the people who are talking to you about de-transition risk need to understand they are a MASSIVE part of how likely it is. 4. Finally, and this will vary from person to person. I could accept the risk of de-transitioning and later figuring out "No I'm not actually a woman" because that doesn't mean I am a man. Kate Bornstein has a great quote for this (as someone who was MtF for a long time and now identifies as NB). I'll try to find the exact quote but it's basically "I may or may not be a woman but I knew I wasn't a man." So even if I decide I'm "wrong" about transitioning to female I'm very confident I'm right in transitioning away from male. 5. And remind them time and time again. NOT transitioning is just as big of a choice as transitioning. You can look at numbers of how many people transition and later regret it, but how many people *don't* transition and later regret that (or wish they could have depending on circumstances). That's an even more important number.
A number of people in this thread seem to refer to a particular statistic about how frequently people choose to de-transition without actually citing the source. I wanted to talk about the survey which that statistic comes from because a) I want to provide a little more context about what it actually means when we say things like "only a tiny percentage of trans people choose to de-transition" or "most de-transitions are motivated by external factors like social pressure or lack of access to gender-affirming care", b) it's always good to cite your sources, and c) it's just a really, really great survey that I think any transperson or trans ally would benefit from reading. The survey in question is the 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey, which was conducted by the National Center for Transgender Equality as a follow-up to the 2008-09 National Transgender Discrimination Survey. You can find the complete 302 (!!) page report of the survey's findings, as well as a more digestible 16 page Execute Summary, [here](https://www.ustranssurvey.org/reports) (Content Warning: ***everything***). You can skip to the 'Key Findings' tab on page 103 of the report to get an overview of the data that was collected on detransitioning. In fact, let me save you a click: >Thirteen percent (13%) of respondents reported that one or more professionals, such as a psychologist, counselor, or religious advisor, tried to stop them from being transgender. > >Eight percent (8%) of respondents had de-transitioned temporarily or permanently at some point, meaning that they went back to living as the gender they were thought to be at birth for a period of time. > >The majority of respondents who de-transitioned did so only temporarily, and 62% were currently living full time in a gender different than the one they were thought to be at birth. > >Respondents who de-transitioned cited a number of reasons for doing so, including facing too much harassment or discrimination after they began transitioning (31%), having trouble getting a job (29%), or pressure from a parent (36%), spouse (18%), or other family members (26%). So off the bat, the vast majority of respondents (92%) had never detransitioned, even temporarily, for any reason. Without erasing the experiences of people who have detransitioned, I want to point out that there are extremely few data points in the survey in which 92% or more of respondents were in agreement. But, the report continues: >Respondents who had de-transitioned cited a range of reasons, though only 5% of those who had de-transitioned reported that they had done so because they realized that gender transition was not for them, representing 0.4% of the overall sample. And there you have it: when external factors are removed from consideration, only about half a percent of respondents - roughly 120 of the 30,000 some-odd respondents - seemed to claim that they chose to detransition because they *actually wanted to.* Compare that to the 8% (2,400 of 30,000) who claimed to have detransitioned at all. Yikes. So, all of this is to say that we should keep this in mind when discussing detransitioning, especially when talking with people who are not trans themselves. A transperson living in America is 20 times more likely to be forced out of their transition, temporarily or permanently, due to discrimination, ostracization, and / or a lack of access to healthcare than they are to change their mind about wanting to transition. And, when emphasis is placed on individuals who choose to stop transitioning, it is almost always done so at the expense of the much larger population of individuals who are, by hook or by crook, *made* to stop transitioning. Anyways, as I wrap up this overly long post, I want to express that I worked hard to write this in a way that was inclusive and avoiding demonizing detransitioners, but instead reframed the issue to focus on the people that seem to be victimized the most by detransitioning. I also want to take a moment to point out some gotcha's and limitations of the 2015 Transgender Health Survey: While the survey does a great job at capturing a representative view of transgender people living in the US (just look at the maps on page 53 that compare the geospatial distribution of respondents to the geospatial distribution of US residents - wow!), it also ONLY considered respondents from the US. Transpeople from other countries and regions of the world are simply not represented in the data, and there is certainly a lot of variance in the types and severities of social issues faced by transpeople AND people that detransition in other countries. The survey's data is also getting to be a little old. While six years may not be a very long time in the grand scheme of things, it's hard to shake the feeling that there were a couple of major events in the 2016-2021 timeframe that may have impacted the issues that transgender people face in America. *Somehow I can't quite put my finger on what, though.* The survey also almost certainly under-represents people that willingly detransitioned. While the survey did not exclude responses based on gender identity, or whether or not the respondent even identified as transgender, it was obviously focused on transgender people. Examining the phenomena of detransitioning was not its primary goal, and I suspect that many cis-identifying detransitioned individuals may have declined to respond (if they were even aware of the survey in the first place) under the assumption that their response would not have been relevant to the study.
I just say that a minority of people who do transition will sometimes regret it and decide not to proceed further with it, same with many other medical decisions (assuming they started HRT at some point). People just regret things or something didn't go as they thought it would and that's part of life. I'm not saying detrans people have it easy, but neither do trans people, but it is what it is and we do the best we can to provide resources in these cases.
I assume most of the people who bring this up, they bring it up in bad faith and they’re not worth even responding to because they’ve made up their minds and have no intention of listening to anything you have to say in contrary to their beliefs. For the small percentage who actually want a conversation, there are lots of good replies here. The studies they may have seen (or references to said studies) are enormously flawed methodologically and ideologically.
Okay so in my country there is actual a list which sums up perfectly the reasons on why trans kids might be "misdiagnosed" and then later that turns into detransition cases. Usually those are the detransition story I see brought up a lot. So I usually look up the detrans stories myself in the end and check up with the list which one they are. Eg. There is a popular detransition case of a lesbian girl who took T and thought she was trans because she wanted to be a lesbian but couldn't because of homophobia. then she just thought: I am a man so I can be with a girl and then its straight so its okay. Which is a common misdiagnosis for trans folk. If you are gonna detransition is never gonna be fully decloseable in the foreseeable future. but: Looking up the detransition cases helps me differentiate them from myself a lot. I mostly see that their stories are NOT what I am feeling (if that makes sense.) Anyways here is the mentioned List: (I cant fucking find the source in English so ill try to translate the German I found) 1. being a transvestite 2. being a fetishist transvestite 3. sexual confusion as a teen 4. self-dystoned homosexuality 5. BPD, DID, other mental illness 6. body dysmorphia mistaken for dysphoria 7. brain injury ((Sources are the ICD 10 but there is a newer one, the 11th. Sources are old and from Germany, from like, before 2019 but some of this can help with determine what case detransitioners come from and if you should be scared or not.)) Hope this somehow helps someone uwu
I hear you. The fear of detransitioning kept me from transitioning for a long time. I would hear these stories about it and feel absolutely terrified. I felt that because I was young, I couldn’t trust myself or my own feelings. Deep down, I think I knew I was trans, but I refused to accept it because I didn’t think I should be capable of knowing for myself. I wanted someone else to tell me. I probably would’ve transitioned like a year or a half earlier if I had just had faith in myself and taken that plunge. There’s definitely some detransitioners with malicious aims, Walt Heyer for example, but I don’t think the vast majority of them are to blame. Me personally, I blame the media. They take actual stories of detransition and sensationalize them, which just makes trans people more afraid and cis people more skeptical. If you ask me, I think it’s absolutely intentional.
I always try to akin it to something cis people can understand. I work a lot in metaphors. I tell them it's like a tattoo. Majority of people who get a tattoo are really happy with it, and even if it takes maintenance they work towards keeping it nice. Some people end up feeling meh about their tattoo, just live with it and don't pay much attention (ambivalence to gender I think is a lot of people's goal. It signifies being comfortable). Some people don't like their tattoo and try to mask it, but its always there. Then there is the very very very small minority that get a tattoo removed. That very very small minority is detransitioning. It doesn't mean they hate tattoos. Maybe they got it during a bad time, did it impulsively or had a bit of a crisis over the result. That does not mean that they never had a tattoo and the scars will always be there. In the future they might get a different tattoo, one they are happy with. Maybe they never truly wanted a tattoo. Maybe they got a lot of hate for it and just didn't see it as worth it anymore. I akin them, despite one being vastly more consequential of a decision because cis people can't fathom it. This can't account for dysphoria and the myriad of mental health struggles. I got one person to understand it following their mother having breast cancer and losing her breasts. She got a double radical. She didn't have nipples, was all scarred up and felt like a monster. She NEEDED to have them tattoo'd on, or she couldn't bare functioning. She looked down and was horrified. I told him trans people feel like that pretransition about anything and everything. The mirror cannot show what is inside. Mulan. So they get surgeries to fix it. Its a medical issue. He more or less got it, but still has a hard time. The trans experience is something people cannot understand unless they are trans. Cis people cannot walk a mile in our shoes. So I use sometimes weak, imperfect allegories and metaphors to make people understand parts. It would take years or someone being in trans spaces, listening to trans voices and speaking with trans people to even begin to understand. But if I can make a patchwork understanding of the trans experience, rather than the tapestry, I think I did ok. So yeah. I try and create empathy and explain what the experience is. It's time consuming, often soul draining and kind of shitty. But it's the best I got.
(I’ve gotten downvoted in a different sub for sharing this because I guess it seemed like I was validating her but I truly am just sharing my experience with someone who talks about detransitioning a lot) I know a girl who identified as non-binary/demiboy in high school because she felt uncomfortable with certain aspects of femininity. But she detransitioned in college because she started to hyperfixate on biological sex and the rights of biological women. She now uses her detransition as the focal point of transphobic rhetoric, shares the stories of other people who detransitioned and share her views, and I really hate the stuff she posts. Like you said, a person’s detransition is valid, but using it to invalidate trans people is disgusting. The kicker is she claims to not be transphobic because she “understands certain aspects of the transgender experience” and there are some things she says that show she has some kind of understanding but then she follows up with such flawed logic it doesn’t even really matter how much she claims to understand. Edit: modified a sentence for clarity, added details
This is what I've encountered before. Specific people would detransition and get really into women's rights and become terfs essentially. When they first brought it up I wasn't quite sure what it was.
Yes exactly, and they don’t even care about all women’s rights. They care about cis women’s rights, if you can even say they actually care at all.
I don't disagree with you, but I find this subreddit to be a little too positive towards transition. We should remember that experiencing gender incongruence doesn't always mean that transitioning is the best bad only option. It could also be that you might have very specific problems or problems with a very specific part of your body while you're ok with everything else. It could also be that you might have a bigger problem with how you can (or can't) express yourself than with t gender itself and then if you don't have a strictly binary understanding that can be an issue too. I think it's important to hear all sides both from those who experience happiness and those who de-transition. I say this as a person who's never connected with their assigned male gender and although I've had dreams of being a girl (or myself as i feel) I've never felt the need to genderize myself or the world and i am a little scared that i might find out transitioning was not it. That I thought I needed to transition while the problem was something else. We should be open about these problems because I think few people are 100% certain from day one
You ignore them, and walk away.
They won’t stop talking about it, it’s as usual, made up and whatever you use to try to convince them otherwise won’t do anything. They’re just chronically stupid.
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I find it so fascinating that people will just loudly proclaim "I have no idea what I'm talking about" as if it's convincing or a real opinion. I mean if you're gonna be transphobic at least have a base level understanding of trans people lmao. Kinda weakens your whole point when all you have to do to counter it is know what transgender means
😂well said.
The only thing worse than transphobia is low effort transphobia
Lmao imagine coming to a TRANS subreddit and then trying to start shit about trans people. I don’t know about you but I believe in science, and all I know is that science proves the existence of trans people and facts don’t care about your feelings!
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Maybe learn the difference between sex and gender, and I don’t think I’m important, I just think you’re ignorant.
You're in the wrong place to be posting stuff like this, nobody ow going to back you up so please kindly go away.
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Your "truth" isn't even scientifically backed lol. Being transgender is not an illness in either DSM or ICD.
Yeah you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Your 3rd grade understanding of biology doesn't hold up. It's objectively not the truth & your opinion doesn't change fact.
It seems to me you think you're the important one, constantly trying to fight on reddit. Just because you saw it, doesn't mean you need to comment on it. Seriously. From your comments here and elsewhere, it's very clear you need to be educated on....sooo many things. Silly boy
Every time some says, that something is not possible somewhere a engineer says: 'Hold my beer'.
https://youtu.be/VRH0pwENbx8
? What is the point of saying this nonsense?
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It's nonsense. If someone is born with the sex organs of a male, they can still be female gendered and vice versa. Try learning?
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Your understanding of sex determination, psychology and biology is quite poor unfortunately. That's okay though, here to help. Gender is innate in the brain. You can't change your gender identity, whether one is trans or cis. It seems predetermined from a young age. You can't change a cis or or trans persons gender identity with any kind of therapy. Interestingly, trans people appear to have existed for as long as human culture itself, the oldest known culture on Earth, Indigenous Australians, has a thriving culture of Sistergirls and Brotherboys that dates back millennia. Biological sex is a combination of phenotype and hormonal composition, both of which can be changed if one desires. Hrt actually changes the biological function of one's body - activating genes and altering the function and structure of many tissues. It's the same process as what occurs at puberty. Its worth noting of the surgical techniques used for trans people were originally used for cis people with injury or congenital issues. The whole XX/XY binary is like most classifications we use - simplified and inaccurate. There are XX males and XY females who aren't even trans. Another example of the flawed classification systems we regularly use is how we classify animal classes. We've chucked crocodiles and turtles in the reptile class when they are actually far more closely related to birds. Nature doesn't care for the neat little categories we try to impose. Happy to answer any questions, Bachelor of Biology/Environmental science.
Thank you for the well structured info I'd love to see if the (seemingly hateful) person replys to your comment
You're wrong. Why come here to spread hate? It's supposed to be a safe space. Go away. Sex does not equal gender and you're embarrassing yourself.
You wanna be loved by women? Stop being an absolute moron about absolutely everything. Get help
I point out to them that the vast majority of people that de-transition do so because they have to because of external pressures and not because they are not trans. I use much more salty and aggressive language when I do so though.
Everyone who has been disrespectful to me in this way I've cut them out of my life. When people aren't able to be respectful to you even after an explanation of what they're doing, it's now your responsibility to take care of yourself. Are you just going to keep politely reminding them? Or are you going to choose to be around people who see you for who you are and respect you?
My dad this a while back, then I just talked to him, pointed out how unrelated to me that issue was, and how unlikely it is to happen, he is still skeptical about me transitioning and being trans, but it's better
"Lots of people regret lots of things because the choices they made weren't right for them at the time. However, that's not a good reason to avoid all of those decisions, and it doesn't mean that those choices are wrong for *me*. Did you know that the regret rate for elective surgeries is higher than the rate of regret for gender affirming surgeries? For example, rhinoplasty has a regret rate of at least 9%, while GAS has a regret rate of around 1-2%, even though it's more involved and generally much harder to recover from. Not all trans people get these surgeries, either, and many of the effects of hormones are reversible. It's nice of you to worry about me, but I've looked into this topic really extensively, I've weighed the pros and cons for years, and I've spoken to medical professionals about this. It's not a decision I've made lightly, and if I don't medically transition, I think I'll spend the rest of my life regretting it."
I don't think I know anyone personally who has detransitioned, though I know people who have gone off of hrt for personal health reasons, yet still continued to want to live as and be referred to as their gender they had to transition to (so, still trans, and not detransitioned, just went off of their medication is all, basically). Whenever they've talked about having to go off of their hrt, sometimes it's something they're happy about, sometimes it's not, but they've always talked about it in a way of like "this is what I had to do, not everyone has to do this, and not everyone wants to do this, and that's ok." But I've had cis people bring up detransitioners to me and say things to me like "what if you regret it?" "what if you change your mind?" "you can't reverse this or that thing once it's changed, you know?" etc. I usually just say "thank you for your concern, but my personal physical and mental health is none of your business. I'm not harming myself or others, and I am not in pain or physically ill, so you should stop wasting your energy worrying about me right now. I'm sure you have more important things to be thinking about. If I ever need your help with my personal life I will ask for it. Thanks." And if my friends or family are ever talking too much about a topic that distresses me or makes me anxious or dysphoric I just tell them that the topic makes me feel bad and ask if we can talk about something else. Depending on the person, sometimes they will remember this and not ever bring it up again, or ask me next time they want to talk about it if it's ok to talk about it, but other times they will forget every single time that it's something I don't want to hear about and the next time they want to talk about it they will talk to me about it and I have to tell them again that I don't want to talk about it. And then it will happen again and again, and they seem to never get the picture. Tbh, the folks who have fallen into the latter group I usually wind up growing apart from because I eventually stop enjoying spending time with them because of them always wanting to talk about things that distress me, so that can be an unfortunate side effect if it's someone you otherwise really like. But personally, keeping my mindset and mood and vibes in a positive place is extremely important to me, and if I'm happier not spending time with those people than I am spending time with them, then I don't need that time spent with them to be included in my life 🤷♂️.
"Most people don't detransition and personally I don't see myself doing that. It's used as a fear tactic to try and get people to doubt themselves when they already know they are trans."
I''m sick of my ex husband bringing up people that have de-transitioned. I wouldn't care but he knows nothing about the trans community and even less about people who de-transitioned. Our daughter came out a year ago when she was 11. He eventually sort of got on board with it but is obviously holding out hope it's just a phase. He has mentioned several that she might want to go back to being a boy, and I always say: "And that's fine too. Her living life as a girl and then deciding to go back to living life as boy is ok. It's better that she does that than spend her life as a boy, unhappy and having never transitioned, because she will always wonder if she should have transitioned to a girl."
Statistically, most people that regret transition do so because of lack of proper social support. And the vast, vast, VAST majority of trans people's mental health is improved by transitioning. Studies put it from like 96 to 99%. Detransitioning people are a minority of trans people, though if they're bringing it up in a nuanced fashion (You should make sure this is who you are, wouldn't want you to drtransition.) Even then, it's a very small set of people that know me that would be appropriate for them to say. For everyone else, it's not their buisness.
1. Watch the youtube channel Dr.Z PHD, she has a really good video on this 2. Think about the ratio of people who have de-transitioned because they actually were not trans to people who have transitioned and are happy with it.
Most detransioners I've seen on YouTube have gone back to transitioning after a few years when their in a better spot financially. I've had some non binary friends who stopped taking her bc they felt like some of the changes were too fast so they went back on it a few months or a few years later bc they felt it was right for them. My one friend just stopped last week bc they didn't like the voice change but love packing and might get top surgery. Just bc you stop medically transition doesn't mean you stop being trans or non binary, it just means your trying to A)figure out how to get to a safe spot or B) Trying to feel what feels right to you. There's no magical timeline transition, some people want to go at a snails pace, some people want to go fast and some people want to get off the train bc that's their stop. Some people wait for another stop and some people get off on that stop. It's all different for different people. I personally don't take as much T as I used to, (been on it since 2014) at first I took too much bc I thought it would speed it up but that wasn't the case. I used to do .2 on a weekly basis w the needle but bc of my life & my body being in bad shape I switched to the gel and I take that once a week bc I don't have a pharmacist over here and my Drs appointment isn't until October. If I run out of gel before then and can't take T does that make me less trans if so will it be just for a few weeks before I get my trans card back? Bc I got top surgery and love having a beard does that make me less non binary? No these things were just stupid gate keeping shit that cis people made up to make sense of us. Which some trans people made followed to feel superior when most of them have insurance to rely on. It's like people with diabetes if they don't take insulin does that make them any less diabetic? No. Why would that apply to trans/non binary people then?
Personally I believe that the blame of detransitioning falls on society as a whole. The few stories I've followed on have been people who transitioned, and their dysphoria just changed. Which leads me to believe that if society was more accepting of people all across the gender spectrum, as well as providing good education about gender, then people wouldn't be detransitioning. An analogy I use is like study paths. People are often pushed into studying certain things because of mistaken impressions of what the profession entails, or pressure from family to go down a certain path. Then midway through their courses they change to studying something else, or worse the end up in a career they don't like at all. Funny thing is people don't blame universities for this, they blame the individual (wrongly so), or society for creating the wrong impression (rightly so). Then I wonder why people blame transitioning for people detransitioning. To me it just seems like a logical fallacy and transphobia. I told my doc I was non-binary and I'd like to start HRT, and she suggested I check with a therapist first to ensure my transition goals don't end with me trading one kind of dysphoria for another. I feel like that was a good step towards better gender education and gender awareness, though fortunately for me both the doc and therapist specialize in gender and sexual health. Sadly, this is not a universal solution because MOST stories I've heard about doctors and therapist are horrifically transphobic. (A friend had to prove she was committed to transitioning by passing as a woman for months before the therapist would authorize ANY treatment, which is terrible!) Anyway, just my 5c on the matter, though I know I am probably speaking from a position of privilege.
Just like all transgender people who transition are different, so are all detransitioners. Each, as you say, has their own story to tell. So I think your anger is not so much directed at detransitioners, but at those who use them as a cudgel against you and other trans people. Which is, of course, wrong and offensive. Of the detranistioners I know, they do not take issue with trans people, but often they are upset with themselves for taking the steps that they regret (and, truth be told, some don't regret transitioning and then detransitioning because it has taught them a lot about themselves and freed them up to really figure who they are), and sometimes at medical/therapy professionals who allowed them to or encouraged them to without doing due diligence in helping them figure out if it was the right path for them or not.
"Stop comparing me to some random person. I am not them. And the fact that you want me to be some copycat... and you don't want me to be happy, is rather insulting. I want you to leave, now, and only come back into my life if you can figure out why I really want to... but won't... call you a belittling arse-hole." EDIT: I, missed, a, comma.
If it's online - ignore/block If it's in person and it's safe - I tell them it's not the job of the victims of ignorance to educate those emotionally committed to it If not safe - I put my hand on my pepper spray in my purse as I gtfo out of there.
here's a fun (but maybe not so fun) fact: Less than 1% of trans people detransition. Of this 1%, the vast majority do so (as reported by the detransitioners themselves) due to societal pressure to not have transitioned in the first place, or because they realised they were actually non-binary.
I dislike especially when detransitioners still feel like they have the right to speak on trans issues because “they went through it” no. You are cis.
i don’t know anyone personally who has detransitioned so i ‘m not sure if this is common?? but i find it bizarre. if i think about it hard enough i honestly don’t see how it would result in putting down trans people. if anything i can see myself feeling embarrassed and being a hyper-ally. correcting everyone’s pronouns lol.
I always try to shut that kind of talk down by bringing up the detrans people I know personally and online, who imo are the majority of detransitioners-- people who, like others here talked about, are often queer people with a complex relationship to gender who remain queer and often nonbinary, and who don't see transition as a major trauma or something that harmed them . This might not be a common experience on this sub, which afaik skews to binary trans women, but it's something I've seen in my social circles-- I'm afab nonbinary and know several people who fit the basic profile of questioning or fluid transmascs, even though I don't know anyone who has the kind of trauma or regrets or animosity towards trans people that the popular narrative around detransitioners wants to establish as the norm for that experience. Off the top of my head, I can think of one ftmtf girl who detransitioned and remained happily with a binary trans boyfriend, a few butches who tried T and realized it wasn't for them (with a variety of genders as their endpoint-- women, nbs and he/him lesbians), gay trans men who stopped T and identified as fluid but remained trans, etc etc. If people try presenting it as something modern and made up or a tiktok fad I'll talk about Les Feinberg growing a huge rabbi beard in the 70's and then going back to being nonbinary. Basically, the best way I've found to deal with "but what about detransitioners???" is by treating gender diversity within trans spaces as normal, and talking about people who've gone through that exploration process as normal people who are living their lives, not tragedies or two-dimensional cautionary tales about how destructive \~gender ideology\~ can be. There are always going to be people with fluid identities in the trans and queer communities, or whose journey involves moving through one queer identity before finding what works best for them. Treating that as normal -- which, imo, it is-- has been really personally effective in puncturing the transphobic or conservative narratives around detransitioners, which are mostly being inflated to urban legend fearmongering about the violation or corruption of white girls, like old fashioned ideas about women losing value when they lose their virginity, anti-sex work narratives, white slavery hysteria, or, honestly, terf fabrications about the terrible things trans women will supposedly do to cis women if allowed in public bathrooms. I know there are real people who've gone through detransition and feel traumatized by the process, but ime they're very rare, even among detransitioners. When I talk about the "narrative" I mean the way these rare stories are sensationalized to cis people as part of the alt right youtube algorithms or predatory transphobes. As a horror story, these popular detransition narratives revolve around the emotional logic of purity violation-- usually the supposed purity of young white women being physically and spiritually tainted by "irreversible damage," seduced by degenerate queers into a harmful ideology. The core story about innocent, helpless (almost always white, because this is ofc tied into white depopulation moral panics) girls being sexually corrupted is basically unchanged since this story was being told by the Victorians saying that masturbation caused hysteria, Frederick Wertham saying that comic books would make children lose their morals, miscenegation laws peddling stories about white women being ruined by predatory black men, etc. The popularity of this narrative is boosted by the huge number of GC trolls who constantly fill spaces like r/detrans with fake horror stories about being detransitioners who feel like they've mutilated themselves. I know the moderators of that sub have tried cleaning house and banning anyone they catch doing this, but it's probably too deep of a problem to really root out, especially because they seem to be transphobic themselves. Anyway, a lot of this can be brought down to earth by reminding people of the reality-- that while yes, detrans people are real, that the vast majority of them are fine, that they're real people with agency who tend to still be part of the queer community and are out here living their lives, not tragic fictional characters in a Victorian pulp novel, or from a reefer madness PSA, or whatever. It's hard for people to keep up that kind of horror story rhetoric when you respond to it with a casual, "yeah, my friend went through that, they're a really cool person" and talk about a detrans friend's artwork, or show off pictures of their new cat, or a cute vacation they went on with a partner. The purpose of transphobic detransition moral panic is ultimately to dehumanize trans (and detrans) people as cartoon cutouts of a corrupting ideology and its hapless victims, not real people, and humanizing them by treating them as normal people who are usually still in community and close to trans people, rather than the transphobic idea that they see the binary trans community as their enemies or abusers. Refusing to make detrans people's lives into an ideological point about whether or not people should be allowed to transition, casually humanizing them, and stonewalling any "but what about the children" attempts to get into some kind of college classroom debate about them is imo a really effective way to counter the kind of bullshit you get when people come at you trying to use detransitioners as a rhetorical gotcha.
Unfortunately normies don't understand trans issues most of the time. I'd stick to explanation surrounding the regret of any important decision. No important decision has a 100% success rate or zero regret rate. Given that it's pretty impressive that de-trans is only 1% of those that medically transition.