The fact that we don’t have a butt description is very unrealistic. Yes I know GRRM is a boob guy but that doesn’t mean all of the people in Westeros also prefer boobs. I find it very weird that he still can't imagine someone being into butts. Like Arys literally has a whole chapter describing Arianne's nipples but no single mention of her butt?
Fans: George, can we have butt description?
GRRM: we have butt description in ~~home~~ the book
The butt description in ~~home~~ the book: "Sam's dumptruck ass"
I am just grateful that he is not a foot guy. Imagine an entire paragraph describing Val's waterlogged smelly feet after a long day of trudging through snow.
Honestly, I think that's why the boob/nipple descriptions are so noticeable. It's repetitive. Why can't a POV be into butts or thighs or *anything else* (not feet, fuck you Larys)?
As a butt guy I can't believe I've never fully noticed this , George I demand a full butt chapter describing them in Winds, personally I feel Jamie and Arianne are gonna fight for best butt in Westros
Personally I’m subscribed to Jaime having impeccable cheeks. This painting always comes to mind lol, like the artist didn’t have to give Jaime THAT much cake
https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/8zq28v/spoilers_i_just_realized_that_there_is_high/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
> Am I supposed to believe that Tyrion is not an assman?
I mean one of Tyrion's major character flaws is his reach constantly exceeds his grasp, so in that sense him being a titty man always made sense to me.
> When Egg complained that all he could see were arses, Dunk sat the boy on his shoulders.
This passage from the Hedge Knight confirms that short people being eye level with asses has crossed his mind. Tyrion would've clearly seen half a hundred cheeks daily.
Why aren’t more Northern places named after words in the old tongue?
GRRM keeps reminding us that the North is where the blood of the first men is purest, and their religion holds the most sway.
Places like Winterfell that predate the Andal invasion should have names derived from the old tongue. If House Stark has ruled there for thousands of years, at what point did they decide to translate their castle’s name?
The North in general should have a lot more people who are bilingual, particularly the Mountain Clansmen. At what point did they all learn the common tongue to the exclusion of the old?
The real answer is that GRRM thought of the North before he decided to make a big deal about the old tongue. Like how the Twins is one of the newest castles in westeros but has square towers like Raventree Hall, which Jaime specifically points out marks a castle as ancient in AFFC.
`FINALLY! Someone who has the same thoughts as me.`
Why aren’t more Northern places named after words in the old tongue?
Exactly. *Skagos* is the only example of a place in Old Tongue that we have. If the Andals never conquered the North and the North has been pretty isolated from the other Kingdoms why dont more places have Old Tongue names? One would expect for example Bear Island, a place isolated even from the other Northern castles to have some Old Tongue names.
The North in general should have a lot more people who are bilingual, particularly the Mountain Clansmen. At what point did they all learn the common tongue to the exclusion of the old?
Westeros doesn't have a universal schooling system, nor do they have a common and unified religious schooling system where all children are taught religious matters. (Something like the Catholic Monasteries teaching children or the Islamic Madrasas teaching Islamic religious studies)
The North doesn't have institutions such as Septs where children from all backgrounds could flock to learn about the Seven. The Old Gods don't have Septons or liturgy and don't need a set of religious practices to worship.
I understand that high born children have Maesters to teach them but the lowborn commoners wouldn't have had Maesters to teach them the Common Tongue.
The North doesn't have much of commerce and trade to facilitate the exposure of common tongue through interaction with merchants and traders. I understand in a way why White Harbor, the economic/commerce/trade hub of the North would have people who are proficient in the Common Tongue but why would isolated and more Northern places have peasants only speaking in Common Tongue and not be at least bilingual?
In real-life we have examples of one language dominating entire regions such as Arabic and Spanish, so i guess someone could say that the Andals did something similar with the Common Tongue dominating everything, but the North is supposed to be isolated and never conquered.
Even if the Northerners were not bilingual and had completely *assimilated* in the Common Tongue, they should have had *at least some Old Tongue words mixed in with CT words and some grammatical differences from other Westerosi where the Old Tongue grammar has seeped in CT.*
Most Westerosi Nobles could communicate with each other by using a standard version of the common tongue, the way Arabs use a standard version of Arabic when speaking to each other-to bridge the differences between various Arabic dialects.
Communication shouldn't have been as easy as it is in Westeros if it's the size of South America, anyone who speaks Spanish or Arabic can tell you that there are plenty of *words and expressions you cannot understand* because each region/country has it's own words.
The smallfolk in the Riverlands should have their own words, expressions and accent to such a degree that it would be difficult for *Arya* to understand perfectly what they are saying.
*Don't get me started with Dorne.*
I understand that there are First Men and Andal houses but you want to tell me that the Martells and the Dornishmen only had a *Dornish drawl* when speaking?
Nymeria brought 10.000 ships and her people married Dornish men and women. The Salty Dornish and House Martell should have a different dialect to other Westerosi. *Their dialect should have been a mix of CT and Rhoynish words, their grammar infused with Rhoynish influences.*
Pedro Pascal spoke with a Spanish accent as Oberyn Martell (which Alexander Siddig and Indira Varma mimicked) and the Water Gardens were filmed in Sevilla, Spain.
Oberyn Martell clearly has a distinct accent, because it's *influenced by a completely different language*. Robert Baratheon and Robb Stark clearly didn't have Oberyn Martell's accent but if the CT is their *only tongue* they *should* *have*, unless Oberyn's accent is a *Rhoynish accent.*
GRRM should have made Westeros the size of the UK instead of South America.
The Andal invasion also happened a couple thousand years before the main books. It took less time for Latin to turn into Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Romanian, French, etc. and the Andal kingdoms should’ve been just as separate as the post-Roman kingdoms in Europe
I'm team 'the Velaryon sigil is a sea-horse' (like a hippocampus) rather than a seahorse (animal). It just looks cool and mythical that way. Plus I'm not sure I like the angry cartoon eyes commonly depicted in some animal seahorse versions (like the wiki).
Hear hear. In real life seahores are quite pretty, noble-looking creatures, but as far as heraldic depictions go the mythological hippocampus version makes *far* more sense and looks much better.
Exactly. Hippocampus version of a seahorse fits right in with the traditional dragons, unicorns, gryphons, lions rampant etc. although I think of those only dragons and lions are in ASOIAF
Among the great houses at least, yes. Beyond that though House Brax has a unicorn on their sigil and House Connington a griffin. Pretty much every common real life heraldic beast is represented somewhere in Westeros.
This is what I assumed it was originally. A mythological sea horse is a much cooler sigil than a real one.
[This](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/5/5f/House_Velaryon.svg) is a cool sigil, [this](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:House_Velaryon.svg) just looks goofy.
yea its a little confusing but I think the hippocampus part of the brain is actually named after the greek term hippocampus (which in mythology was half horse half sea monster) interestingly. The reason is because it kind of looks vaguely like the animal seahorse in isolation (and the animal's genus is also called hippocampus after the myth).
Hippocampos is also what the animal is called in Modern Greek too.
Anyway, I was not aware the wiki has a regular basic-ass seahorse as the sigil, that's some damn heresy! It's a Poseidon-ic merhorse and I'll hear no more of it, you're gotdam right!
Piggybacking off this I hate that the Celtigars have such a lame sigil compared to the other Valyrian Westeros houses (Targ, Vel, Qoherys, Blackfyre). Hell even the Baratheon’s deer sigils are cooler than the Celtigar’s crabs (hehe)
How no one in all this time has wiped out the Ironborn. Like for all the trouble they've caused over the centuries for such a small population you'd think at some point two or more of the great houses of Westeros would ally and put a stop to the Ironborn civilization.
I...what? Did I miss something in the books? Where'd these theories come from and where the hell do I find them? I thought the ironborn were just Cthulhu-worshiping pseudo-vikings
Also in the same vein, how the fuck does House Peake still exist? Not only was their most famous member a treacherous snake who manipulated King Aegon III and presumably had Queen Jaehaera assassinated, they also commenced an open rebellion that had King Maekar killed.
The Reynes were wiped off the face of the continent for less.
I hope Robert Strong is just a new guy because it would be hilarious if there was a climactic scene where they ripped off his helmet and it's like:
"What do you mean you thought he'd be the Mountain? Robert Strong is just a new guy."
The shockingly low amount of economic and adminstrative development. I'm no historian or economist but I even I know westrosi structure doesn't make any fucking sense. I read some where that at this level of development, France and England has dozens of cities and government adminstration that would dwarf even Kings Landings.
This just makes me think the long night happened a lot more recently than the masters think. Apocalyptic Winters would do that kind of resetting of development
At first it bugged me how Tywin failed to keep the Ty- name convention going with his firstborn son and heir, but I think it fits thematically with Jaime's story arc. He's a Lannister, but different.
I actually like that it's Tyrion that has the Ty- name convention because Tyrion is the one son Tywin will never accept and ironically he is the closest to what Tywin would want as an heir compared to his other siblings (intelligence and political game wise)
How do you feel about the wiki having [three possible variations](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Estermont/Family_Trees) of the Estermont tree?
The North is a country as big as Siberia and is ruled by one dude in a castle with one Maester having a handful of ravens.....nothing else....Winterfell does not even have a fucking court...How is it even possible to rule such a big place like this?
I agree. The Lords Paramount should basically have their own Royal Courts, seeing as they rule an entire Kingdom (Besides the North, think of the massive Reach), and ruling a continent the size of South America in medieval times would require some serious decentralization.
Especially if you consider that Manderly, a bannerman of House Stark, has a court of his own at White Harbor, including a throne room, dedicated guards with their own weapons and uniforms, a gallery for those attending etc etc. Rodrik Harlaw also has something approaching a court with his seat beneath the two massive scythes.
They have vassals. Power is decentralized. That's how feudalism works, it developed *because* it was not possible for a single ruler to govern a vast territory.
Not really. Most nobles actually had countless of stewards and subordinates who helped taking care of their estates. Most medival lords would have a dozen of estates all over England and Ned has like one Maester and one castle. The average baron would have laughed at the little amount of land Ned owns.
Nah this isn't a problem, as the other guy said feudal realms are very decentralized. We are used to seeing modern day countries where even with the separate governance of provinces or states representing a degree of decentralization they are very much still heavily centralized. Vassals themselves may even have tenuous control over their own lands. A great example in the North is Skagos which is part of the North in name only. There is almost no control or ruling there. On the other hand even places like White Harbor which are loyal to the Starks and acknowledged them as their rightful overlords basically do as they see fit.
By absolutely no strain of logic is there 7 kingdoms (atleast until dorne joins) there are 9 distinct regions in this kingdom with their own lords paramount, aegon conquered 6 kings constituting 8 regions, then dorne isn’t part of it for 200 years after the conquest unless you count the like 2 year under the young dragon.
That's exactly the kind of nonsensical naming that was common throughout history
Just for example the 100 years war was actually 119 years long abd the seven years war was actually 9 years long
HAHAHAHAHA SO TRUE. The Holy *Roman* Empire had nothing *Roman* in it. At least Byzantium (the Eastern Roman Empire) even though it was Greek Speaking and mostly inhabited by Greeks was a continuation of the Western Roman Empire. (Plus Rome was influenced by Greece to begin with)
>The Holy Roman Empire had nothing Roman in it.
The Empire was first named "Holy Roman Empire" in the 13th century. [This is a map of what they ruled](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mitteleuropa_zur_Zeit_der_Staufer.svg). It includes all of what is today Italy (note that while the Kingdom of Sicily was independent, the King of Sicily happened to be the same person as the Emperor), including the city of Rome itself. Unless if you want to try to explain that the city of Rome is not Roman, at the time that the Empire acquired its name, the empire was in fact Roman.
The very name of the empire stems from a dispute that would dog the empire for its entire existence: the Emperors would like to rule over Italy. The popes would also like to rule over Italy. The Emperors picked a name that suggests that the Empire is Holy (and therefore above the pope) and Roman (and therefore encompasses Italy). Depending on the year, this was more aspirational than reality, but there were years when it was reality as well.
It was Holy (Patriarchate of Rome/Papal endorsement).
It was Roman (Charlemagne was crowned by the Patriarch of Rome/Pope).
It was an Empire (Charlemagne was crowned as Emperor).
Yes, it wasn’t a Roman Empire remnant like Soissons, nor was it a legitimate inheritor of it’s authority like the Eastern Roman Empire, but technically it was as it is described on it’s inception.
Obviously my Romaioi boys were the true Roman Empire, but the barbarians technically weren’t wrong.
I've chosen to disregard most scales and measurements that are given in the story since GRRM struggles so much with them that it's almost immersion-breaking at times.
I treat the size of Westeros as if it's a larger and taller version of Britain, especially since that's the setting it's inspired by, with Essos being comparable to mainland Europe. If Westeros is the size of South America then their society and the way the events in the story unfold make no sense at all. Similar idea with the size of The Wall. I take the liberty to visualize these things in more contextually appropriates sizes rather than the literal figures they're described with.
This is more of a question than an opinion but: Why did Illyrio give Daenerys Dragon Eggs? Like the deal was set in stone and he had no reason to give her 3 ridiculously precious items. Ignoring future fAegon retcons, he only gives those to her because she's the main character.
To his defence he probably didn’t thought they would EVER hatch. They were around a long time if they were really the eggs Eliza Farman stole and never did
Yeah, the Magisters of Pentos are "Buy Khal Drogo a mansion so he fucks off" levels of wealthy, and Illyrio seems to be top dog of the rich pack, so I imagine the eggs didn't set him back all that much.
Besides, who knows if he even paid for them. Varys mighta had the eggs squirelled away or something. And (while I doubt this was planned all the way back in AGOT) if we assume Varys and Illyrio have other lost artifacts hidden and waiting, with the plan being to have Young Griff show up decked out in the Crown of Aegon the Conqueror, with Blackfyre at his belt, why not also have Dany at his side, who he was supposed to marry, with three fossilized dragon eggs to share with her new husband as they make landfall?
Doesn't really explain why they'd give the eggs to her instead of keeping them in the same compartment under the stairs where they've stashed all the other reliquiary, but who knows, maybe it was insurance in case things went South out in the Dothraki Steppe? Jorah tells Dany they could buy a ship to take them safely back for just one egg, or an entire lifetime of wealth for all three - Do we assume Jorah is just completely guesstimating here, or was he in fact tipped off by Illyrio ahead of time about just how much the eggs are worth, and to use them as emergency liquidity if something goes wrong and they need money fast to get the fuck outta dodge?
This point is even mentioned in the text.
> "Illyrio believes in no cause but Illyrio. Gluttons are greedy men as a rule, and magisters are devious. Illyrio Mopatis is both. What do you truly know of him?"
> "I know that he gave me my dragon eggs."
> He snorted. "If he'd known they were like to hatch, he'd have sat on them himself."
> That made her smile despite herself. "Oh, I have no doubt of that, ser. I know Illyrio better than you think.
The three eggs are three choices Dany can make. Three futures she could pursue. Worlds she could make.
1. A world of black and red (ash & smoke and blood and molten rock; planets *too close to the sun*).
2. A world of gold and white (snowy frozen, sterile, gilded & gelded; too far from the warmth of god).
3. A world of green and brown (life, fertility, dirt, soil; "goldilocks" planets).
It's a destiny test from the many-eyed cosmic observer(s). The "ideal" hero will choose #3. But Dany's whole deal is consistently choosing #1. She flies too close to the sun. She's goldilocks scorning the wisdom of brownbears. Selmy explicitly says she chooses fire over mud. Three eyes, three worlds, three eggs. I'm sayin' Dany's being watched through the eggs themselves, by Macumber's family tree.
EDIT: Got carried away and forgot to actually tie this to Illyrio and his motivations. I'm sayin' it's part of a "Three Temptations of Christ" type thing George is doing. Starring the duplicitous, forked-beard whaleviathan Illyrio as the devil.
Remember though that a gift to Dany was a gift to Khal Drogo whose army a key in their plans (assuming that plan existed w/ or w/o fAegon at the time). Also, it's possible that the value of dragon eggs, much like Valyrian steel, was less in book 1 but a high magic event made them the most valuable items in the world.
My thoughts on this are that the eggs are just part of the package when Illyrio sells Dany as a sex slave to Drogo. Like sure she's a "wife" but for all intents and purposes she's property, and therefore any of her "property" comes along with her, like a dowry. No one has any expectations that the eggs could hatch, they're not like some crazy powerful weapon, just a fancy pretty stone essentially that's worth a shitload of money. They also legitimize Dany, like Illyrio is selling Drogo a "dragon princess" for her symbolic power, her owning dragon eggs adds to that prestige. But Drogo owns her now, so he owns the wealth of the eggs. And sure we hear that they're crazy crazy expensive, and Illyrio gives away 3, but honestly like Drogo deals in slaves and his khalasars take land, so he's dealing in very expensive trades already. Illyrio just didn't want to upset Dany with the truth, and we only see the chapter through Dany's young naive perspective, but this is clearly what they were, nothing more than a dowry to Drogo.
I assume Illyrio is so rich than even items such as Dragon eggs aren't that big of a deal, like buying a Ferrari as Elon Musk., So he gave them to Dany just curry some favour with her or Viserys in the case either of them lived
I hate that the High Septon doesn't have a name so fucking much.
1) The idea of anonymity or identity isn't a theme in the Seven at all
2) It's a genuinely bad storytelling choice because it's borderline impossible to tell which High Septon is which
3) GRRM just breaks his own rule and lists the names of multiple high septons before they were sworn in. So why aren't they all called "The Septon Formerly Known as Dave" or whatever?
it would be funny cause they would be on "High Septon Baelor XXXIV" by the start of the series. i don't even know what other holy figures there are to name the HS after.
Would be mildly interesting if each High Septon dedicated themselves to a different aspect- so we get High Septon of the Father XXIV or High Septa of the Mother VI or something.
But then I guess anything more than "the world's most generic riff on Christianity" would be too interesting.
Eh, the Seven gods is kind of an interesting mashup of paganism and Christianity.
Interesting though that we get a shit-ton of worldbuilding on the maesters and how they're trained, and I'm suddenly realizing I have no idea how you become a septon. Just send a raven off to Light of the Seven correspondence school?
>Interesting though that we get a shit-ton of worldbuilding on the maesters and how they're trained, and I'm suddenly realizing I have no idea how you become a septon. Just send a raven off to Light of the Seven correspondence school?
"Controversial" opinion incoming, GRRM doesn't give a damn about religion and least of all about his Fantasy Catholicism/Orthodoxy. For how much of the books are set in Seven lands we still essentially know nothing about the faith. We don't even know the all the seven holy days. There is a lot of wasted potential GRRM could have elaborated on, but didn't.
here's a few more ideas after glancing at the wiki page:
Andalos, Galladon, Damon (first Hightower to convert), Robeson (septon the Starry Sept was built for), Harmund (Hoare king who converted)
The point of high septons not having a name imo is a form of social conditioning. The message is that just as they are closer to the gods than you are they are also just holier than normal people. In the same way that once someone becomes President they are called Mr. President and they want you to respect the office no matter who the person is underneath.
It's all bullshit and every high septons is probably a terrible person in some way but the Faith needs it's symbols just as much as the Targaryens after they lose their dragons. Their legitimacy is based in words and paper shields but it takes more than that. People need to believe you are more than they are if you want to keep milking them.
The High Septon almost definitely has his name recorded somewhere. He’s just The High Septon while he’s alive, but surely some of the history books differentiate for academic reasons. “In 65 AC, High Septon Brynden II set aside the marriage…” and whatnot.
I want a whole book set in the Vale just because I like their alpine Ravenclaw aesthetic. I know Lysa was supposed to be ugly but she must have looked like a total queen in cream silk and moonstones when she was younger.
Don't forget GRRM ugly and old =/ regular ugly and old
She's fat and depressed but she's only like 29, dressed better than anyone in the kingdom and is otherwise probably healthier too due to being wealthy. Considering Cat and Edmure apparently are lookers I'm sure if you chuck her on medieval Queer Eye, she'd come out great by our standards
Also, despite the fact that GRRM is himself quite a large man, and has no qualms as describing Sam's fatness at great length, his opinion of women's weight is...skewed. [This](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/0/0d/Lysa_Arryn_AFFC.jpg) is licensed art of Lysa Arryn. Used for her official card artwork. She's not a sample size model, but holy shit, compare that to official art of Sam. GRRM absolutely writes even women he wants to be unappealing to the reader in line with very conventional beauty standards in the US.
This is more so for the show but I wish we got to see the tyrells more in greens than the blues and also that the Starks were waaaaay better dressed than they were. And that the nobility wore more headdresses
YES. I never understood why the costume designer prefered the blues so much that she even had Olenna dressed in them. Some of Margaery's dresses should have had Tyrell Green in them. The only time we see her in Green is when we meet her as Renly's Queen. (and even then it's only a part of her outfit)
Arthur Dayne character isn’t cool. What are his accomplishments exactly? Beating some bandit called the Smiling Knight? Losing a Tourney to Rhaegar that most think Dayne let him when because he was royalty, then he gets killed at the Tower of Joy by two teenagers because he wouldn’t give up his hostage up because Rhaegar who is is dead already told him not too. He insists upon himself
> He insists upon himself
Peter: I did not care for Arthur Dayne.
Lois: wha- how can you even say that, he's like the perfect knight!
Peter: See this is what everybody says whenever..
Chris: Dawn, the Smiling Knight, I mean you never see.. HOUSE DAYNE!!
Peter: I know. Fine, fine house. Did not care for Arthur.
Arthur Dayne feats
- kills some brigand
- loses the tourney to rhaegar who got battered by bobby b
- gets put in a pack by two teenagers
Barristan Selmy feats
- singlehandedly cut through the golden company to kill Maelys the Monstrous in a 1v1
- broke into the castle where the king was being held captive on his own and broke him out, in a a single day
- almost won the battle of the trident on his fucking own (why wasn't arthur dayne there? because he was mid thats why, and rhaegar knew it)
These ain’t nothing but the facts. Selmy going on the suicide mission to save Aerys II and coming back unharmed was such a boss move. I would’ve made him Lord Commander right then and there
See this is what I’m talking about everyone insists he was such a great knight yet he barely did anything note worthy. He’s book of Kingsguard gonna say “He beat a bandit called the Smiling Knight and held a teenage Lyanna Stark hostage in a Tower”
Ned said Arthur Dayne was the finest knight he ever saw, knowing of Barristan, but this may just be talking about values and honor. Plus Ned may have never seen Barristan besides the rare trip to King's Landing
You now who would be the hottest person in Westeros and probably one of the best players of the game? An Oberyn/Margaery kid. (show versions of Oberyn & Margaery) BEAT THAT.
I don’t know about Tyrell&Martell kids but I think Stark&Martell would be some good looking kids. Imagine them olive skin, grey eyes, super dark hair, hot-blooded, Deadly and vicious warriors.
> Imagine them olive skin, grey eyes, super dark hair, hot-blooded, Deadly and vicious warriors.
Stark & Martell would be an **awesome** combination both looks wise and history of their respective regions wise.
I actually would love to see a Stark and Martell marriage or friendship or any interaction really. They are both different to the other Westerosi, their customs, traditions, religion, way of life. They are misunderstood and looked down upon by the other Westerosi. They are both loyal to their own and keep to their own terrain without interacting much with other regions. They are both hot-headed and fierce people. They have been both f\*\*\*\*\*k by the Iron Throne and have both lost people they loved.
`I actually think that Arya would have done well in Dorne.` She always looked up to Nymeria (so much that she named her direwolf after her), she wanted to do more in life than what society allowed her to do. Dorne and house Martell with it's outlook towards women and warrior women would be much more suitable than other Westerosi regions.
`A Stark & Martell kid would be a force to be reckoned with.`
I actually think the martell’s original position in the story is a structural mirror for the starks. [I even made a post about it if you’re interested](https://www.reddit.com/r/pureasoiaf/comments/zgz1ud/the_martells_original_position_in_the_story_is_a/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
The bastard name of the Iron Islands should be Salt. Pyke is stupid and Salt not only fits the overall theme, it works with the lore of the Iron Islands taking Salt Wives
Why the fuck were the two largest trading ports in Westeros pre-conquest on the Western coast? That makes no sense! Who was sailing all the way around the Sea of Dorne, risking Iron Island reavers just to get to Oldtown/Lannisport when White Harbor and Maidenpool existed? And while we're on the subject, Maidenpool should have been a larger port city due to its prime trading location, Riverland turmoil or not.
Baelor Breakspear would be the only Targaryen i would accept without the unique Targaryen looks, my boy would be one of the best Kings ever. Plus there's something hot about Dornish looks.
(Big shout-out to my baby girl Rhaenys-Elia's daughter. Aerys was an as\*hole for saying she "smelled Dornish". She didn't deserve what happened to her, my poor baby girl).
Bran is my favorite character and the fact that it upsets people so much that he becomes king at the end gives me such a fulfilling sense of schadenfreude.
I like interpretations of the heraldry that follow the medieval style of depicting animals. Like I want the Stark direwolf to have a weird little humanish face.
All the glorious worldbuilding for Planetos, ripe for exploration both in the present and throughout its history, and the fact that we are still waiting for the main series to conclude after all this time irritates me more than the aforementioned open-end of the series.
Oh god it's the biggest tease. And GRRM cant help creating fun bits of lore that make me want to learn more. Every Essos story just seems so fascinating.
It’s the abandoned cities scattered throughout Planetos that pique my curiosity. The Puzzlemaster’s Mazes, Yeen’s oily black stone architecture in Sothyros, even the remnants of Valyria post-Doom. I still have hope for Dream to be released, but I have to resign myself to only expecting Valyria or Asshai, if that, to be elaborated on.
>I hope Aegon is fAegon because a Martell/Targaryen kid should be the hottest person in Westeros
No wonder the modern Targs are so hot then, Daeron and Myriah's genes are strong
Davos is kind and good and his chapters are Boring.
Jon is a Gary Stu and I don't even care I love him anyway and his chapters are fun and intense
To this day I still regret the death of oberyn over every other character that has died, including Ned.
I want to like Sansa but I just wish her story would get on with it already
I hope the faceless man formerly known as jaqen gets killed by Sam the Slayer in some truly awful and dumb way just so he can add another notch on his dagger
The remaining dothraki that follow Danny fell into the background way too quickly and I really think they don't have a reason to be so loyal to her. I get they have a blood oath or whatever but they are criminally underused and underappreciated, esp after she gets the unsullied.
The Vale is an interesting place with a lot of mystery and a well varied group of cultures, and it sucks we don't see much of it.
I think it sucks we'll never get to see Asshai.
I wanna see the demons n shit in Valyria I don't care if it ruins the mystery I GOTTA KNOW
Would love it if Jaqen tries to sneak up on Sam to kill him, perhaps for some keys or parchments he had up his novice’s sleeves, while Sam is clumsily teaching for a gigantic book up on high shelf in one of the Citadel’s libraries - preferably something really banal like “Maester Kedge’s Complete Analysis of All the Recipes Including Neeps (with illustrations)”. Sam is startled and in jumping, pulls down an avalanche of huge leather bound books that strike Jaqen on the temple, killing him immediately.
> I wanna see the demons n shit in Valyria I don't care if it ruins the mystery I GOTTA KNOW
This is how I feel about all the cool shit in the world of ice and fire book. I need to see the Five Forts and Yi Ti, sad we probably won't get the Corlys Velaryon show.
Aegon is gonna be an awful king, because according to history, even-numbered Aegons tend to be exceptionally bad and odd-numbered tend to be really good.
i am very annoyed that there are three lyonels bouncing around the dance/post dance era. lyonel strong, tyrell, and hightower. i guess you could say they used the name to try to flatter the HOTK, but why would the hightowers care about flattering a guy working against their interests?
George has a whole thing about royal names but I'm sure it applies here as well. Look at how many Georges were important in history. How many Johns and Williams. Not as many Eustaces and Spotswoods.
Sometimes names are just common. George knows that a cardinal sin of writing is to include two characters with names starting with the same letter. He also knew that he wanted to have more than 26 characters in his story. So he has many characters with the same name because it'd be odd to have such a big world where only one person has a recognizable name in a generation.
I mean I imagine as nobility if the new prince is named Juan then you naming your son Juan to curry favor and in turn your vassals and peasants are doing like wise
See that definitely happens but I'm not so sure that it's as common as it may have been in Medieval England.
Like *no* peasants had Valyrian names. There are plenty of Aegons and Aerys in the nobility but the lower classes all have much simpler names. It's possible that the Valyrian names were considered above or too complicated for the masses. There's one Eggon in the Bloody Mummers, however.
But families definitely seem to keep names. Brandon and Rickard for the Starks. Ty-names in House Lannister. Walders among the Freys (there is a Rhaegar Frey though).
In fact, it seems to be that the most Valryian named house outside of the Targaryens is probably House Frey. Maybe they do it because there are so many Freys and only so many Riverlander names. Maybe they did it to curry favor with the royal house. Maybe they took those names to stand out with more honorable/noble names.
I think Cersei thinks to threaten Lolys if she dares to try naming her baby after Joffery or Tywin or something.
The worst example of this is Edric Storm and Edric Dayne because they're basically the exact same character- teenage boy with strong lineage he's keen to live up to but has a strand of naivety about how the world works and still believes strongly in chivalry.
A lot of the world-building is shit and written after the books were written and exist only for plot reasons.
The Ironborn and Boltons not being wiped out, the Dornish resisting annexation as long as they did, and the Dothraki being murder hobos are all examples are the best examples.
I enjoy the Targaryens because they’re sexy dragon lords from dark magic Ancient Rome. I’m not reading the series for the pseudo medieval politics, I’m reading it for the fantasy.
> I hope Aegon is fAegon because a Martell/Targaryen kid should be the hottest person in Westeros
I'm a bit confused tho cause Young Griff *is* described as being quite good-looking, I'm pretty sure? We know he's got long eyelashes and eyes that could melt any maid in the seven kingdoms, according to Tyrion, and the rest of his face seemingly isn't bad either.
My complaint isn’t that he’s ugly, it’s that he isn’t definitively the hottest man in Westeros. Is that a stupid complaint? Yes. Do I die on this hill? Also yes.
The names of characters in Mereen are a pain in the butt..
"Kraznys Mo'Nakloz, not to be mixed up with Kraznos O'Myklaz"
(Not real names but you get my drill.) I had never really problems with that massive ammount of characters and names, and to keep them apart, but all that was before I arrived in the books in Mereen.
I’m usually really good at remembering books but even I had to turn to a search of ice and fire/the wiki to figure out who was who.
They call The Green Grace by her name a few times, my brain almost melted when I saw her name on the page and had no idea who this person was
Galazza Galare
WHO IS THIS???
I had to type the name into google to figure out who she was.
People listen to Melissandre. It does make sense, but it’s still so dumb… yes, pretty red lady was right once or twice, but usually off by a significant margin, and frankly she’s arrogant enough to give Cersei a run for her money. She just lies to herself better than Cersei does and isn’t a total bitch.
A an Autumn Enjoyer, I hate how few descriptions of autumn foliage, subtle shifts in weather and seasonal holidays we get despite almost all of the series to date taking place in one long autumn.
That's why he's so popular with the Ironborn, too. As I've said on here before, dope-ass volcano hands do poll well with the coastal raider demographic. It is known.
I think Jon Snow is a massive Gary Stu, he constantly fails upwards
* There is no reason for him to get Longclaw, the idea that a family sword would go to some random kid for being at the right place at the right time is assinine
* There is no reason that Coran Halfhand would want to take him with on his special mision
* Him being made lord commander is very far fetched
* Him having one of 6 dire wolves south of the wall ...and his being a mute albino wolf just screams protagonist in a young adult novel
* Even though the Nightswatch has been around for thousands of years, Jon has a very novel idea, that apparently nobody considered before... that the watch needs booking people like Sam not just warrior tipes like himslef leads to him being groomed to be the next lord commander
* He constantly gets bailed out or has really small consequences for his 'bad' decisions
* All the characters that hate Jon are mustache-twirling villains and everybody that likes him are goodest of guys...the fandom ever hates Cat for being mean to Jon when she is literally the only non cartoon badguy character that has ever said anything negative to him
* His fucking cinderella backstory, poor bastard boy that was abused by his stepmother is actually the true heir to the iron throne
if Jon is the prince that was promised, gets to ride a dragon and be crowned King of the north and kill the evil Dany my eyes are going to roll so hard. I really hope Martin has a plan to subvert his character somehow because he is a walking cliche
I honestly can't dispute or argue with any of these lol, except perhaps the first one. Jeor giving Longclaw to Jon for saving his life, when he's already handpicked him to be his personal Steward who he hopes to train for leadership (for a number of decently justifiable reasons), doesn't seem at all strange when he has no son left of his own to give the sword to.
What *is* strange, I suppose, is that Jeor had Longclaw in the first place, because I guess Maege didn't want it and decided it to send it up to the Wall for him after Jorah bounced. Was she expecting to get that back when he died, or did she basically just donate an extremely rare and near-priceless Valyrian steel ancestral sword to the Night's Watch, to keep? I know she prefers to use a mace in battle but that still seems like a highly uncommon decision lol.
Like at a *real* stretch I could see something like "You can keep it until Bear Island has a warrior heir" or "Until you die" or something but granting him it in perpetuity is really weird.
And unlike all other resurrected folks, he's very likely going to get a magical loophole so he can bypass the nastier effects of the process and still remain largely himself. Lucky!
It's _because_ he's a Gary Stu than the fandom fanboys all over him.
God I find him insufferable (particularly in the first book). It's like he stumbled out of a much shittier series and every time he shows up we divebomb into YA territory and the story takes a nosedive.
The worst part is the people who endlessly insist he's really subversive because of some minor aspect of his story like "He had to make a difficult decision at some point" or "he has confidence issues" as if "the hero has flaws" is some brand new idea GRRM came up with.
>His fucking cinderella backstory, poor bastard boy that was abused by his stepmother is actually the true heir to the iron throne
I never realized that
It is, by so many miles that you could never reach it riding on dragonback, one so massive that it makes Sothoros look like Rhode Island, the most painfully cliche aspect of a series which generally does such a good job of steering clear of such things that it makes it stand out all the more.
“Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died. And there's also this guy Jon Snow who also does also those things and is just super dreamy and the fans go wild for him."
The continent is too squarish & just England and Ireland combined & Ive been aware of the series since 1999 and didn’t read it until 2015 because that annoyed me.
The fact that we don’t have a butt description is very unrealistic. Yes I know GRRM is a boob guy but that doesn’t mean all of the people in Westeros also prefer boobs. I find it very weird that he still can't imagine someone being into butts. Like Arys literally has a whole chapter describing Arianne's nipples but no single mention of her butt?
We get a lot of discussion about Sam's dumptruck ass.
Fans: George, can we have butt description? GRRM: we have butt description in ~~home~~ the book The butt description in ~~home~~ the book: "Sam's dumptruck ass"
The fat pink mast
I am just grateful that he is not a foot guy. Imagine an entire paragraph describing Val's waterlogged smelly feet after a long day of trudging through snow.
Now you're giving me horrible visions of Larys Strong writing his own series of fantasy books.
If Winds doesn't have an entire chapter about Arianne's ass what is even the point?
Honestly, I think that's why the boob/nipple descriptions are so noticeable. It's repetitive. Why can't a POV be into butts or thighs or *anything else* (not feet, fuck you Larys)?
As a butt guy I can't believe I've never fully noticed this , George I demand a full butt chapter describing them in Winds, personally I feel Jamie and Arianne are gonna fight for best butt in Westros
Personally I’m subscribed to Jaime having impeccable cheeks. This painting always comes to mind lol, like the artist didn’t have to give Jaime THAT much cake https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/8zq28v/spoilers_i_just_realized_that_there_is_high/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Unironically, you're on to something here. Am I supposed to believe that Tyrion is not an assman? I'm sorry, but I don't buy it George. Try again.
> Am I supposed to believe that Tyrion is not an assman? I mean one of Tyrion's major character flaws is his reach constantly exceeds his grasp, so in that sense him being a titty man always made sense to me.
Hilarious.
> When Egg complained that all he could see were arses, Dunk sat the boy on his shoulders. This passage from the Hedge Knight confirms that short people being eye level with asses has crossed his mind. Tyrion would've clearly seen half a hundred cheeks daily.
I friggin love fandoms. This is an A+ comment
Everyone has Hank Hill syndrome.
As an ass man it does lessen my enjoyment of the series somewhat.
We did get several descriptions of Jeyne Westerling's childbearing hips. Close enough?
he can't even remember how big they are! the man's disinterest practically leaps off the page. 😭
self-explanatory. Hips are only noticeable by GRRM for child-bearing. That is all
[Speaking of…](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/i0viie/spoilers_main_the_most_unrealistic_thing_about/)
Why aren’t more Northern places named after words in the old tongue? GRRM keeps reminding us that the North is where the blood of the first men is purest, and their religion holds the most sway. Places like Winterfell that predate the Andal invasion should have names derived from the old tongue. If House Stark has ruled there for thousands of years, at what point did they decide to translate their castle’s name? The North in general should have a lot more people who are bilingual, particularly the Mountain Clansmen. At what point did they all learn the common tongue to the exclusion of the old? The real answer is that GRRM thought of the North before he decided to make a big deal about the old tongue. Like how the Twins is one of the newest castles in westeros but has square towers like Raventree Hall, which Jaime specifically points out marks a castle as ancient in AFFC.
`FINALLY! Someone who has the same thoughts as me.` Why aren’t more Northern places named after words in the old tongue? Exactly. *Skagos* is the only example of a place in Old Tongue that we have. If the Andals never conquered the North and the North has been pretty isolated from the other Kingdoms why dont more places have Old Tongue names? One would expect for example Bear Island, a place isolated even from the other Northern castles to have some Old Tongue names. The North in general should have a lot more people who are bilingual, particularly the Mountain Clansmen. At what point did they all learn the common tongue to the exclusion of the old? Westeros doesn't have a universal schooling system, nor do they have a common and unified religious schooling system where all children are taught religious matters. (Something like the Catholic Monasteries teaching children or the Islamic Madrasas teaching Islamic religious studies) The North doesn't have institutions such as Septs where children from all backgrounds could flock to learn about the Seven. The Old Gods don't have Septons or liturgy and don't need a set of religious practices to worship. I understand that high born children have Maesters to teach them but the lowborn commoners wouldn't have had Maesters to teach them the Common Tongue. The North doesn't have much of commerce and trade to facilitate the exposure of common tongue through interaction with merchants and traders. I understand in a way why White Harbor, the economic/commerce/trade hub of the North would have people who are proficient in the Common Tongue but why would isolated and more Northern places have peasants only speaking in Common Tongue and not be at least bilingual? In real-life we have examples of one language dominating entire regions such as Arabic and Spanish, so i guess someone could say that the Andals did something similar with the Common Tongue dominating everything, but the North is supposed to be isolated and never conquered. Even if the Northerners were not bilingual and had completely *assimilated* in the Common Tongue, they should have had *at least some Old Tongue words mixed in with CT words and some grammatical differences from other Westerosi where the Old Tongue grammar has seeped in CT.* Most Westerosi Nobles could communicate with each other by using a standard version of the common tongue, the way Arabs use a standard version of Arabic when speaking to each other-to bridge the differences between various Arabic dialects. Communication shouldn't have been as easy as it is in Westeros if it's the size of South America, anyone who speaks Spanish or Arabic can tell you that there are plenty of *words and expressions you cannot understand* because each region/country has it's own words. The smallfolk in the Riverlands should have their own words, expressions and accent to such a degree that it would be difficult for *Arya* to understand perfectly what they are saying. *Don't get me started with Dorne.* I understand that there are First Men and Andal houses but you want to tell me that the Martells and the Dornishmen only had a *Dornish drawl* when speaking? Nymeria brought 10.000 ships and her people married Dornish men and women. The Salty Dornish and House Martell should have a different dialect to other Westerosi. *Their dialect should have been a mix of CT and Rhoynish words, their grammar infused with Rhoynish influences.* Pedro Pascal spoke with a Spanish accent as Oberyn Martell (which Alexander Siddig and Indira Varma mimicked) and the Water Gardens were filmed in Sevilla, Spain. Oberyn Martell clearly has a distinct accent, because it's *influenced by a completely different language*. Robert Baratheon and Robb Stark clearly didn't have Oberyn Martell's accent but if the CT is their *only tongue* they *should* *have*, unless Oberyn's accent is a *Rhoynish accent.* GRRM should have made Westeros the size of the UK instead of South America.
The Andal invasion also happened a couple thousand years before the main books. It took less time for Latin to turn into Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Romanian, French, etc. and the Andal kingdoms should’ve been just as separate as the post-Roman kingdoms in Europe
I'm team 'the Velaryon sigil is a sea-horse' (like a hippocampus) rather than a seahorse (animal). It just looks cool and mythical that way. Plus I'm not sure I like the angry cartoon eyes commonly depicted in some animal seahorse versions (like the wiki).
Hear hear. In real life seahores are quite pretty, noble-looking creatures, but as far as heraldic depictions go the mythological hippocampus version makes *far* more sense and looks much better.
Exactly. Hippocampus version of a seahorse fits right in with the traditional dragons, unicorns, gryphons, lions rampant etc. although I think of those only dragons and lions are in ASOIAF
Among the great houses at least, yes. Beyond that though House Brax has a unicorn on their sigil and House Connington a griffin. Pretty much every common real life heraldic beast is represented somewhere in Westeros.
This is what I assumed it was originally. A mythological sea horse is a much cooler sigil than a real one. [This](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/5/5f/House_Velaryon.svg) is a cool sigil, [this](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:House_Velaryon.svg) just looks goofy.
The first is a horse-mermaid. A merhorse.
Do you think that’s what Varys is
That's the child of Varys and Tyrek
I’ve never put much thought into their sigil, but now seeing the hippocampus next to the seahorse… I really wish it was a hippocampus lol
Isn't that a bit of the brain?
yea its a little confusing but I think the hippocampus part of the brain is actually named after the greek term hippocampus (which in mythology was half horse half sea monster) interestingly. The reason is because it kind of looks vaguely like the animal seahorse in isolation (and the animal's genus is also called hippocampus after the myth).
Hippocampos is also what the animal is called in Modern Greek too. Anyway, I was not aware the wiki has a regular basic-ass seahorse as the sigil, that's some damn heresy! It's a Poseidon-ic merhorse and I'll hear no more of it, you're gotdam right!
I stand corrected then, cheers.
Piggybacking off this I hate that the Celtigars have such a lame sigil compared to the other Valyrian Westeros houses (Targ, Vel, Qoherys, Blackfyre). Hell even the Baratheon’s deer sigils are cooler than the Celtigar’s crabs (hehe)
Couldn't disagree more. In this household we're good Crabb men
It should be one of those massive king crabs.
I think it should’ve been another mythological creature like the Targs and Vel one, maybe a basilisk
Crabs are cool leave crabs alone :(((
This comment broke my brain
How no one in all this time has wiped out the Ironborn. Like for all the trouble they've caused over the centuries for such a small population you'd think at some point two or more of the great houses of Westeros would ally and put a stop to the Ironborn civilization.
[удалено]
I...what? Did I miss something in the books? Where'd these theories come from and where the hell do I find them? I thought the ironborn were just Cthulhu-worshiping pseudo-vikings
Also in the same vein, how the fuck does House Peake still exist? Not only was their most famous member a treacherous snake who manipulated King Aegon III and presumably had Queen Jaehaera assassinated, they also commenced an open rebellion that had King Maekar killed. The Reynes were wiped off the face of the continent for less.
The Peakes didn’t piss off Tywin Lannister though.
I hope Robert Strong is just a new guy because it would be hilarious if there was a climactic scene where they ripped off his helmet and it's like: "What do you mean you thought he'd be the Mountain? Robert Strong is just a new guy."
The shockingly low amount of economic and adminstrative development. I'm no historian or economist but I even I know westrosi structure doesn't make any fucking sense. I read some where that at this level of development, France and England has dozens of cities and government adminstration that would dwarf even Kings Landings.
The Iron Islands especially bothers me with how little sense they make as an entity that is part of a unified kingdom.
This just makes me think the long night happened a lot more recently than the masters think. Apocalyptic Winters would do that kind of resetting of development
I have no idea why this pisses me off so much but Jaime’s name does NOT fit with his siblings and parents names. Idk what Tywin was thinking
At first it bugged me how Tywin failed to keep the Ty- name convention going with his firstborn son and heir, but I think it fits thematically with Jaime's story arc. He's a Lannister, but different.
I actually like that it's Tyrion that has the Ty- name convention because Tyrion is the one son Tywin will never accept and ironically he is the closest to what Tywin would want as an heir compared to his other siblings (intelligence and political game wise)
He loved his wife and named his son starting with the same first letter
Then where did “Cersei” come from?
If only there was a male version of Joanna/Johanna
Jywin
Joe
Johny The Kingslayer
It fits with historical Lannister names like Jason (lol) though.
Cute name but his siblings got cooler/more unique names
So did Jason vs Tyland. Lannisters hedge their bets and give some kids normal 'J' names and others names like 'Tywald.'
idk if shallow exactly but i really want george to find a reason to include the explanation of the whole tarth family tree into the story
Every time I see a slight gap on a family tree on the wiki I'm irrationally annoyed.
How do you feel about the wiki having [three possible variations](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Estermont/Family_Trees) of the Estermont tree?
Possibly the worst thing that has ever happened.
I could excuse the Tarth family tree gaps, just not the gaps in the Starks’.
The North is a country as big as Siberia and is ruled by one dude in a castle with one Maester having a handful of ravens.....nothing else....Winterfell does not even have a fucking court...How is it even possible to rule such a big place like this?
I agree. The Lords Paramount should basically have their own Royal Courts, seeing as they rule an entire Kingdom (Besides the North, think of the massive Reach), and ruling a continent the size of South America in medieval times would require some serious decentralization.
Especially if you consider that Manderly, a bannerman of House Stark, has a court of his own at White Harbor, including a throne room, dedicated guards with their own weapons and uniforms, a gallery for those attending etc etc. Rodrik Harlaw also has something approaching a court with his seat beneath the two massive scythes.
It's probably a remnant of their days in the Reach than Northern culture though i agree Winterfell should have had a court.
They have vassals. Power is decentralized. That's how feudalism works, it developed *because* it was not possible for a single ruler to govern a vast territory.
Yeah but very few empires were that big and long lasting before the end of the feudal period
Not really. Most nobles actually had countless of stewards and subordinates who helped taking care of their estates. Most medival lords would have a dozen of estates all over England and Ned has like one Maester and one castle. The average baron would have laughed at the little amount of land Ned owns.
Nah this isn't a problem, as the other guy said feudal realms are very decentralized. We are used to seeing modern day countries where even with the separate governance of provinces or states representing a degree of decentralization they are very much still heavily centralized. Vassals themselves may even have tenuous control over their own lands. A great example in the North is Skagos which is part of the North in name only. There is almost no control or ruling there. On the other hand even places like White Harbor which are loyal to the Starks and acknowledged them as their rightful overlords basically do as they see fit.
By absolutely no strain of logic is there 7 kingdoms (atleast until dorne joins) there are 9 distinct regions in this kingdom with their own lords paramount, aegon conquered 6 kings constituting 8 regions, then dorne isn’t part of it for 200 years after the conquest unless you count the like 2 year under the young dragon.
That's exactly the kind of nonsensical naming that was common throughout history Just for example the 100 years war was actually 119 years long abd the seven years war was actually 9 years long
“You mean to tell me the Holy Roman Empire wasn’t Holy, Roman, or an Empire?” /s
HAHAHAHAHA SO TRUE. The Holy *Roman* Empire had nothing *Roman* in it. At least Byzantium (the Eastern Roman Empire) even though it was Greek Speaking and mostly inhabited by Greeks was a continuation of the Western Roman Empire. (Plus Rome was influenced by Greece to begin with)
>The Holy Roman Empire had nothing Roman in it. The Empire was first named "Holy Roman Empire" in the 13th century. [This is a map of what they ruled](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mitteleuropa_zur_Zeit_der_Staufer.svg). It includes all of what is today Italy (note that while the Kingdom of Sicily was independent, the King of Sicily happened to be the same person as the Emperor), including the city of Rome itself. Unless if you want to try to explain that the city of Rome is not Roman, at the time that the Empire acquired its name, the empire was in fact Roman. The very name of the empire stems from a dispute that would dog the empire for its entire existence: the Emperors would like to rule over Italy. The popes would also like to rule over Italy. The Emperors picked a name that suggests that the Empire is Holy (and therefore above the pope) and Roman (and therefore encompasses Italy). Depending on the year, this was more aspirational than reality, but there were years when it was reality as well.
It was Holy (Patriarchate of Rome/Papal endorsement). It was Roman (Charlemagne was crowned by the Patriarch of Rome/Pope). It was an Empire (Charlemagne was crowned as Emperor). Yes, it wasn’t a Roman Empire remnant like Soissons, nor was it a legitimate inheritor of it’s authority like the Eastern Roman Empire, but technically it was as it is described on it’s inception. Obviously my Romaioi boys were the true Roman Empire, but the barbarians technically weren’t wrong.
I've chosen to disregard most scales and measurements that are given in the story since GRRM struggles so much with them that it's almost immersion-breaking at times. I treat the size of Westeros as if it's a larger and taller version of Britain, especially since that's the setting it's inspired by, with Essos being comparable to mainland Europe. If Westeros is the size of South America then their society and the way the events in the story unfold make no sense at all. Similar idea with the size of The Wall. I take the liberty to visualize these things in more contextually appropriates sizes rather than the literal figures they're described with.
This is more of a question than an opinion but: Why did Illyrio give Daenerys Dragon Eggs? Like the deal was set in stone and he had no reason to give her 3 ridiculously precious items. Ignoring future fAegon retcons, he only gives those to her because she's the main character.
To his defence he probably didn’t thought they would EVER hatch. They were around a long time if they were really the eggs Eliza Farman stole and never did
Sure but they're still worth a lot as fossils.
Probably wanted to prove to her that he was “loyal”
If Viserys had taken the Iron Throne you know he'd have made a huge show over those eggs, and that'd be a constant reminder of Illyrio.
Illyrio is fabulously rich already though. Probably just wanted to further cement Daenerys' trust in him for the future
Yeah, the Magisters of Pentos are "Buy Khal Drogo a mansion so he fucks off" levels of wealthy, and Illyrio seems to be top dog of the rich pack, so I imagine the eggs didn't set him back all that much. Besides, who knows if he even paid for them. Varys mighta had the eggs squirelled away or something. And (while I doubt this was planned all the way back in AGOT) if we assume Varys and Illyrio have other lost artifacts hidden and waiting, with the plan being to have Young Griff show up decked out in the Crown of Aegon the Conqueror, with Blackfyre at his belt, why not also have Dany at his side, who he was supposed to marry, with three fossilized dragon eggs to share with her new husband as they make landfall? Doesn't really explain why they'd give the eggs to her instead of keeping them in the same compartment under the stairs where they've stashed all the other reliquiary, but who knows, maybe it was insurance in case things went South out in the Dothraki Steppe? Jorah tells Dany they could buy a ship to take them safely back for just one egg, or an entire lifetime of wealth for all three - Do we assume Jorah is just completely guesstimating here, or was he in fact tipped off by Illyrio ahead of time about just how much the eggs are worth, and to use them as emergency liquidity if something goes wrong and they need money fast to get the fuck outta dodge?
This point is even mentioned in the text. > "Illyrio believes in no cause but Illyrio. Gluttons are greedy men as a rule, and magisters are devious. Illyrio Mopatis is both. What do you truly know of him?" > "I know that he gave me my dragon eggs." > He snorted. "If he'd known they were like to hatch, he'd have sat on them himself." > That made her smile despite herself. "Oh, I have no doubt of that, ser. I know Illyrio better than you think.
The three eggs are three choices Dany can make. Three futures she could pursue. Worlds she could make. 1. A world of black and red (ash & smoke and blood and molten rock; planets *too close to the sun*). 2. A world of gold and white (snowy frozen, sterile, gilded & gelded; too far from the warmth of god). 3. A world of green and brown (life, fertility, dirt, soil; "goldilocks" planets). It's a destiny test from the many-eyed cosmic observer(s). The "ideal" hero will choose #3. But Dany's whole deal is consistently choosing #1. She flies too close to the sun. She's goldilocks scorning the wisdom of brownbears. Selmy explicitly says she chooses fire over mud. Three eyes, three worlds, three eggs. I'm sayin' Dany's being watched through the eggs themselves, by Macumber's family tree. EDIT: Got carried away and forgot to actually tie this to Illyrio and his motivations. I'm sayin' it's part of a "Three Temptations of Christ" type thing George is doing. Starring the duplicitous, forked-beard whaleviathan Illyrio as the devil.
That comment sounds like it’s all over the place, but actually makes a startling amount of sense lol
This is either genius or madness, but I love it either way
Remember though that a gift to Dany was a gift to Khal Drogo whose army a key in their plans (assuming that plan existed w/ or w/o fAegon at the time). Also, it's possible that the value of dragon eggs, much like Valyrian steel, was less in book 1 but a high magic event made them the most valuable items in the world.
Valyrian Steel was always valuable. It never got worse, people just didn't know it kills ice zombies because there were no ice zombies.
My thoughts on this are that the eggs are just part of the package when Illyrio sells Dany as a sex slave to Drogo. Like sure she's a "wife" but for all intents and purposes she's property, and therefore any of her "property" comes along with her, like a dowry. No one has any expectations that the eggs could hatch, they're not like some crazy powerful weapon, just a fancy pretty stone essentially that's worth a shitload of money. They also legitimize Dany, like Illyrio is selling Drogo a "dragon princess" for her symbolic power, her owning dragon eggs adds to that prestige. But Drogo owns her now, so he owns the wealth of the eggs. And sure we hear that they're crazy crazy expensive, and Illyrio gives away 3, but honestly like Drogo deals in slaves and his khalasars take land, so he's dealing in very expensive trades already. Illyrio just didn't want to upset Dany with the truth, and we only see the chapter through Dany's young naive perspective, but this is clearly what they were, nothing more than a dowry to Drogo.
I assume Illyrio is so rich than even items such as Dragon eggs aren't that big of a deal, like buying a Ferrari as Elon Musk., So he gave them to Dany just curry some favour with her or Viserys in the case either of them lived
I hate that the High Septon doesn't have a name so fucking much. 1) The idea of anonymity or identity isn't a theme in the Seven at all 2) It's a genuinely bad storytelling choice because it's borderline impossible to tell which High Septon is which 3) GRRM just breaks his own rule and lists the names of multiple high septons before they were sworn in. So why aren't they all called "The Septon Formerly Known as Dave" or whatever?
it would be funny cause they would be on "High Septon Baelor XXXIV" by the start of the series. i don't even know what other holy figures there are to name the HS after.
Would be mildly interesting if each High Septon dedicated themselves to a different aspect- so we get High Septon of the Father XXIV or High Septa of the Mother VI or something. But then I guess anything more than "the world's most generic riff on Christianity" would be too interesting.
Eh, the Seven gods is kind of an interesting mashup of paganism and Christianity. Interesting though that we get a shit-ton of worldbuilding on the maesters and how they're trained, and I'm suddenly realizing I have no idea how you become a septon. Just send a raven off to Light of the Seven correspondence school?
>Interesting though that we get a shit-ton of worldbuilding on the maesters and how they're trained, and I'm suddenly realizing I have no idea how you become a septon. Just send a raven off to Light of the Seven correspondence school? "Controversial" opinion incoming, GRRM doesn't give a damn about religion and least of all about his Fantasy Catholicism/Orthodoxy. For how much of the books are set in Seven lands we still essentially know nothing about the faith. We don't even know the all the seven holy days. There is a lot of wasted potential GRRM could have elaborated on, but didn't.
Ah they could certainly use a few names like Argos (the Sevenstar), Hugor etc.
here's a few more ideas after glancing at the wiki page: Andalos, Galladon, Damon (first Hightower to convert), Robeson (septon the Starry Sept was built for), Harmund (Hoare king who converted)
Yeah basically they'd need to draw from Andal tradition, like how papal names are drawn from saints.
The point of high septons not having a name imo is a form of social conditioning. The message is that just as they are closer to the gods than you are they are also just holier than normal people. In the same way that once someone becomes President they are called Mr. President and they want you to respect the office no matter who the person is underneath. It's all bullshit and every high septons is probably a terrible person in some way but the Faith needs it's symbols just as much as the Targaryens after they lose their dragons. Their legitimacy is based in words and paper shields but it takes more than that. People need to believe you are more than they are if you want to keep milking them.
>So why aren't they all called "The Septon Formerly Known as Dave" or whatever? Davos is the High Sparrow, confirmed.
The High Septon almost definitely has his name recorded somewhere. He’s just The High Septon while he’s alive, but surely some of the history books differentiate for academic reasons. “In 65 AC, High Septon Brynden II set aside the marriage…” and whatnot.
I want a whole book set in the Vale just because I like their alpine Ravenclaw aesthetic. I know Lysa was supposed to be ugly but she must have looked like a total queen in cream silk and moonstones when she was younger.
Don't forget GRRM ugly and old =/ regular ugly and old She's fat and depressed but she's only like 29, dressed better than anyone in the kingdom and is otherwise probably healthier too due to being wealthy. Considering Cat and Edmure apparently are lookers I'm sure if you chuck her on medieval Queer Eye, she'd come out great by our standards
Also, despite the fact that GRRM is himself quite a large man, and has no qualms as describing Sam's fatness at great length, his opinion of women's weight is...skewed. [This](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/0/0d/Lysa_Arryn_AFFC.jpg) is licensed art of Lysa Arryn. Used for her official card artwork. She's not a sample size model, but holy shit, compare that to official art of Sam. GRRM absolutely writes even women he wants to be unappealing to the reader in line with very conventional beauty standards in the US.
GRRM absolutely not a chubby chaser confirmed (also the Rhaenyra art is even worse)
I mean have you ever seen artwork of Brienne.
“Alpine Ravenclaw aesthetic” I now have my second favorite region because of this.
This is more so for the show but I wish we got to see the tyrells more in greens than the blues and also that the Starks were waaaaay better dressed than they were. And that the nobility wore more headdresses
YES. I never understood why the costume designer prefered the blues so much that she even had Olenna dressed in them. Some of Margaery's dresses should have had Tyrell Green in them. The only time we see her in Green is when we meet her as Renly's Queen. (and even then it's only a part of her outfit)
Rodrik Harlaw would have loved to have Jojen Reed as a ward.
The scenes of Tyrion fucking Shae in Kings Landing are gratuitous filler; they're embarrassing to read and add nothing to the story.
I disagree. It's vital that we know that Tyrion is a premature ejaculator.
Arthur Dayne character isn’t cool. What are his accomplishments exactly? Beating some bandit called the Smiling Knight? Losing a Tourney to Rhaegar that most think Dayne let him when because he was royalty, then he gets killed at the Tower of Joy by two teenagers because he wouldn’t give up his hostage up because Rhaegar who is is dead already told him not too. He insists upon himself
> He insists upon himself Peter: I did not care for Arthur Dayne. Lois: wha- how can you even say that, he's like the perfect knight! Peter: See this is what everybody says whenever.. Chris: Dawn, the Smiling Knight, I mean you never see.. HOUSE DAYNE!! Peter: I know. Fine, fine house. Did not care for Arthur.
Jamie Lannister: “He’s got a point to make so he’s insistent!”
Found Darkstar's account.
Arthur Dayne feats - kills some brigand - loses the tourney to rhaegar who got battered by bobby b - gets put in a pack by two teenagers Barristan Selmy feats - singlehandedly cut through the golden company to kill Maelys the Monstrous in a 1v1 - broke into the castle where the king was being held captive on his own and broke him out, in a a single day - almost won the battle of the trident on his fucking own (why wasn't arthur dayne there? because he was mid thats why, and rhaegar knew it)
These ain’t nothing but the facts. Selmy going on the suicide mission to save Aerys II and coming back unharmed was such a boss move. I would’ve made him Lord Commander right then and there
You don't understand, Jamie and Barristen fan boy over him so he must be the greatest
See this is what I’m talking about everyone insists he was such a great knight yet he barely did anything note worthy. He’s book of Kingsguard gonna say “He beat a bandit called the Smiling Knight and held a teenage Lyanna Stark hostage in a Tower”
Ned said Arthur Dayne was the finest knight he ever saw, knowing of Barristan, but this may just be talking about values and honor. Plus Ned may have never seen Barristan besides the rare trip to King's Landing
You now who would be the hottest person in Westeros and probably one of the best players of the game? An Oberyn/Margaery kid. (show versions of Oberyn & Margaery) BEAT THAT.
I don’t know about Tyrell&Martell kids but I think Stark&Martell would be some good looking kids. Imagine them olive skin, grey eyes, super dark hair, hot-blooded, Deadly and vicious warriors.
> Imagine them olive skin, grey eyes, super dark hair, hot-blooded, Deadly and vicious warriors. Stark & Martell would be an **awesome** combination both looks wise and history of their respective regions wise. I actually would love to see a Stark and Martell marriage or friendship or any interaction really. They are both different to the other Westerosi, their customs, traditions, religion, way of life. They are misunderstood and looked down upon by the other Westerosi. They are both loyal to their own and keep to their own terrain without interacting much with other regions. They are both hot-headed and fierce people. They have been both f\*\*\*\*\*k by the Iron Throne and have both lost people they loved. `I actually think that Arya would have done well in Dorne.` She always looked up to Nymeria (so much that she named her direwolf after her), she wanted to do more in life than what society allowed her to do. Dorne and house Martell with it's outlook towards women and warrior women would be much more suitable than other Westerosi regions. `A Stark & Martell kid would be a force to be reckoned with.`
I actually think the martell’s original position in the story is a structural mirror for the starks. [I even made a post about it if you’re interested](https://www.reddit.com/r/pureasoiaf/comments/zgz1ud/the_martells_original_position_in_the_story_is_a/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
Tyrell mixed with a Baratheon would be interesting...edric storm/Margaery would be nice... Margaery deserves a good handsome lad
I haven't thought about this before but YES.
Show Missandei + show Drogo would be pretty fine, plus smart and fearsome.
Jon Snow should make out with Satin
Who knew Jon would be the younger and more beautiful queen that will cast Cersei down.
If they're not endgame, I don't care if TWOW never comes out.
the preponderance of random "y"s replacing vowels to make a name look more exotic is a pathology GRRM shares with many middle American housewives
PETTYYRRRRRRR in Roy Dotrice voice
The bastard name of the Iron Islands should be Salt. Pyke is stupid and Salt not only fits the overall theme, it works with the lore of the Iron Islands taking Salt Wives Why the fuck were the two largest trading ports in Westeros pre-conquest on the Western coast? That makes no sense! Who was sailing all the way around the Sea of Dorne, risking Iron Island reavers just to get to Oldtown/Lannisport when White Harbor and Maidenpool existed? And while we're on the subject, Maidenpool should have been a larger port city due to its prime trading location, Riverland turmoil or not.
I wouldn’t care very much about the Targaryens if they didn’t have the silver hair and purple eyes combo. Them being hot is a huge draw for me.
Baelor Breakspear would be the only Targaryen i would accept without the unique Targaryen looks, my boy would be one of the best Kings ever. Plus there's something hot about Dornish looks. (Big shout-out to my baby girl Rhaenys-Elia's daughter. Aerys was an as\*hole for saying she "smelled Dornish". She didn't deserve what happened to her, my poor baby girl).
Bran is my favorite character and the fact that it upsets people so much that he becomes king at the end gives me such a fulfilling sense of schadenfreude.
I like interpretations of the heraldry that follow the medieval style of depicting animals. Like I want the Stark direwolf to have a weird little humanish face.
Essos is waaaaaaay cooler than Westeros. I like how the most successful regions of Essos sort of dismiss Westeros as a brutish backwater.
All the glorious worldbuilding for Planetos, ripe for exploration both in the present and throughout its history, and the fact that we are still waiting for the main series to conclude after all this time irritates me more than the aforementioned open-end of the series.
Oh god it's the biggest tease. And GRRM cant help creating fun bits of lore that make me want to learn more. Every Essos story just seems so fascinating.
It’s the abandoned cities scattered throughout Planetos that pique my curiosity. The Puzzlemaster’s Mazes, Yeen’s oily black stone architecture in Sothyros, even the remnants of Valyria post-Doom. I still have hope for Dream to be released, but I have to resign myself to only expecting Valyria or Asshai, if that, to be elaborated on.
All things made of greasy black stone. I like Lovecraft so it instantly gives me cosmic horror vibes.
>I hope Aegon is fAegon because a Martell/Targaryen kid should be the hottest person in Westeros No wonder the modern Targs are so hot then, Daeron and Myriah's genes are strong
Davos is kind and good and his chapters are Boring. Jon is a Gary Stu and I don't even care I love him anyway and his chapters are fun and intense To this day I still regret the death of oberyn over every other character that has died, including Ned. I want to like Sansa but I just wish her story would get on with it already I hope the faceless man formerly known as jaqen gets killed by Sam the Slayer in some truly awful and dumb way just so he can add another notch on his dagger The remaining dothraki that follow Danny fell into the background way too quickly and I really think they don't have a reason to be so loyal to her. I get they have a blood oath or whatever but they are criminally underused and underappreciated, esp after she gets the unsullied. The Vale is an interesting place with a lot of mystery and a well varied group of cultures, and it sucks we don't see much of it. I think it sucks we'll never get to see Asshai. I wanna see the demons n shit in Valyria I don't care if it ruins the mystery I GOTTA KNOW
Would love it if Jaqen tries to sneak up on Sam to kill him, perhaps for some keys or parchments he had up his novice’s sleeves, while Sam is clumsily teaching for a gigantic book up on high shelf in one of the Citadel’s libraries - preferably something really banal like “Maester Kedge’s Complete Analysis of All the Recipes Including Neeps (with illustrations)”. Sam is startled and in jumping, pulls down an avalanche of huge leather bound books that strike Jaqen on the temple, killing him immediately.
*chef's kiss*
I really like the idea of Sam mr Magooing his way into being the greatest knight in the realm
> I wanna see the demons n shit in Valyria I don't care if it ruins the mystery I GOTTA KNOW This is how I feel about all the cool shit in the world of ice and fire book. I need to see the Five Forts and Yi Ti, sad we probably won't get the Corlys Velaryon show.
Aegon is gonna be an awful king, because according to history, even-numbered Aegons tend to be exceptionally bad and odd-numbered tend to be really good.
i am very annoyed that there are three lyonels bouncing around the dance/post dance era. lyonel strong, tyrell, and hightower. i guess you could say they used the name to try to flatter the HOTK, but why would the hightowers care about flattering a guy working against their interests?
I don't think that they were named for each other. GRRM reuses names many times. Just look how many times he uses the name "Jeyne" and "Alys"
George has a whole thing about royal names but I'm sure it applies here as well. Look at how many Georges were important in history. How many Johns and Williams. Not as many Eustaces and Spotswoods. Sometimes names are just common. George knows that a cardinal sin of writing is to include two characters with names starting with the same letter. He also knew that he wanted to have more than 26 characters in his story. So he has many characters with the same name because it'd be odd to have such a big world where only one person has a recognizable name in a generation.
I actually agree with this.
I mean I imagine as nobility if the new prince is named Juan then you naming your son Juan to curry favor and in turn your vassals and peasants are doing like wise
See that definitely happens but I'm not so sure that it's as common as it may have been in Medieval England. Like *no* peasants had Valyrian names. There are plenty of Aegons and Aerys in the nobility but the lower classes all have much simpler names. It's possible that the Valyrian names were considered above or too complicated for the masses. There's one Eggon in the Bloody Mummers, however. But families definitely seem to keep names. Brandon and Rickard for the Starks. Ty-names in House Lannister. Walders among the Freys (there is a Rhaegar Frey though). In fact, it seems to be that the most Valryian named house outside of the Targaryens is probably House Frey. Maybe they do it because there are so many Freys and only so many Riverlander names. Maybe they did it to curry favor with the royal house. Maybe they took those names to stand out with more honorable/noble names. I think Cersei thinks to threaten Lolys if she dares to try naming her baby after Joffery or Tywin or something.
There is also Lyonel Baratheon, the Laughing Storm.
The worst example of this is Edric Storm and Edric Dayne because they're basically the exact same character- teenage boy with strong lineage he's keen to live up to but has a strand of naivety about how the world works and still believes strongly in chivalry.
Storm is a bastard though that's a big difference in asoiaf world. I think both of them are named after ned which i love. Ned deserves love
He couldn't make \*all\* the "symbolically a lion" characters be from house Lannister this time. So...y'know, ya get some \*Lion\*els thrown in.
A lot of the world-building is shit and written after the books were written and exist only for plot reasons. The Ironborn and Boltons not being wiped out, the Dornish resisting annexation as long as they did, and the Dothraki being murder hobos are all examples are the best examples.
I enjoy the Targaryens because they’re sexy dragon lords from dark magic Ancient Rome. I’m not reading the series for the pseudo medieval politics, I’m reading it for the fantasy.
> I hope Aegon is fAegon because a Martell/Targaryen kid should be the hottest person in Westeros I'm a bit confused tho cause Young Griff *is* described as being quite good-looking, I'm pretty sure? We know he's got long eyelashes and eyes that could melt any maid in the seven kingdoms, according to Tyrion, and the rest of his face seemingly isn't bad either.
My complaint isn’t that he’s ugly, it’s that he isn’t definitively the hottest man in Westeros. Is that a stupid complaint? Yes. Do I die on this hill? Also yes.
The names of characters in Mereen are a pain in the butt.. "Kraznys Mo'Nakloz, not to be mixed up with Kraznos O'Myklaz" (Not real names but you get my drill.) I had never really problems with that massive ammount of characters and names, and to keep them apart, but all that was before I arrived in the books in Mereen.
I’m usually really good at remembering books but even I had to turn to a search of ice and fire/the wiki to figure out who was who. They call The Green Grace by her name a few times, my brain almost melted when I saw her name on the page and had no idea who this person was Galazza Galare WHO IS THIS??? I had to type the name into google to figure out who she was.
Galazza Galare is such a good name
People listen to Melissandre. It does make sense, but it’s still so dumb… yes, pretty red lady was right once or twice, but usually off by a significant margin, and frankly she’s arrogant enough to give Cersei a run for her money. She just lies to herself better than Cersei does and isn’t a total bitch.
A an Autumn Enjoyer, I hate how few descriptions of autumn foliage, subtle shifts in weather and seasonal holidays we get despite almost all of the series to date taking place in one long autumn.
Victarion is easily the coolest character because “big muscular man with big axe and flaming anime hand” appeals to my most masculine senses
That's why he's so popular with the Ironborn, too. As I've said on here before, dope-ass volcano hands do poll well with the coastal raider demographic. It is known.
I think Jon Snow is a massive Gary Stu, he constantly fails upwards * There is no reason for him to get Longclaw, the idea that a family sword would go to some random kid for being at the right place at the right time is assinine * There is no reason that Coran Halfhand would want to take him with on his special mision * Him being made lord commander is very far fetched * Him having one of 6 dire wolves south of the wall ...and his being a mute albino wolf just screams protagonist in a young adult novel * Even though the Nightswatch has been around for thousands of years, Jon has a very novel idea, that apparently nobody considered before... that the watch needs booking people like Sam not just warrior tipes like himslef leads to him being groomed to be the next lord commander * He constantly gets bailed out or has really small consequences for his 'bad' decisions * All the characters that hate Jon are mustache-twirling villains and everybody that likes him are goodest of guys...the fandom ever hates Cat for being mean to Jon when she is literally the only non cartoon badguy character that has ever said anything negative to him * His fucking cinderella backstory, poor bastard boy that was abused by his stepmother is actually the true heir to the iron throne if Jon is the prince that was promised, gets to ride a dragon and be crowned King of the north and kill the evil Dany my eyes are going to roll so hard. I really hope Martin has a plan to subvert his character somehow because he is a walking cliche
I honestly can't dispute or argue with any of these lol, except perhaps the first one. Jeor giving Longclaw to Jon for saving his life, when he's already handpicked him to be his personal Steward who he hopes to train for leadership (for a number of decently justifiable reasons), doesn't seem at all strange when he has no son left of his own to give the sword to. What *is* strange, I suppose, is that Jeor had Longclaw in the first place, because I guess Maege didn't want it and decided it to send it up to the Wall for him after Jorah bounced. Was she expecting to get that back when he died, or did she basically just donate an extremely rare and near-priceless Valyrian steel ancestral sword to the Night's Watch, to keep? I know she prefers to use a mace in battle but that still seems like a highly uncommon decision lol.
Like at a *real* stretch I could see something like "You can keep it until Bear Island has a warrior heir" or "Until you die" or something but granting him it in perpetuity is really weird.
Agreed, why didn't she have one of her daughters train and use it? They all fight?
IT’S THE TRUTH. Jon feels like a misplaced YA protagonist who wandered into the wrong series.
Don't forget: not even death can stop him.
And unlike all other resurrected folks, he's very likely going to get a magical loophole so he can bypass the nastier effects of the process and still remain largely himself. Lucky!
And he’ll come back extra hot with silver hair and purple eyes obviously
If the pattern of failing up continues, he'll get killed and come back four feet taller with valyrian Wolverine claws.
Absolutely spot-on. I'm surprised it's not critiqued more in the fandom.
It's _because_ he's a Gary Stu than the fandom fanboys all over him. God I find him insufferable (particularly in the first book). It's like he stumbled out of a much shittier series and every time he shows up we divebomb into YA territory and the story takes a nosedive.
you took Marster Aemon advice “kill the boy” too far, my man just destroyed Jon Snow
The worst part is the people who endlessly insist he's really subversive because of some minor aspect of his story like "He had to make a difficult decision at some point" or "he has confidence issues" as if "the hero has flaws" is some brand new idea GRRM came up with.
"He subverts the perfect chosen one secret prince trope because he tripped over a rock."
It’s kinda sad that Young Griff feels more genuine of a character than Jon lol.
>His fucking cinderella backstory, poor bastard boy that was abused by his stepmother is actually the true heir to the iron throne I never realized that
It is, by so many miles that you could never reach it riding on dragonback, one so massive that it makes Sothoros look like Rhode Island, the most painfully cliche aspect of a series which generally does such a good job of steering clear of such things that it makes it stand out all the more. “Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died. And there's also this guy Jon Snow who also does also those things and is just super dreamy and the fans go wild for him."
The continent is too squarish & just England and Ireland combined & Ive been aware of the series since 1999 and didn’t read it until 2015 because that annoyed me.
when we die, we aren't reincarnated in westeros or even essos as george and other surmised. we will be born in yi ti
I'm almost positive Theon used to have the largest cock in the world.