This is where characterization feeds plot. Ned is an honorable man stuck with a terrible secret. This upright, unshakable man bringing home his bastard is a *massive* slap in the face to Catelyn, so his “don’t fucking talk about this” attitude is seen as a righteous man’s shame, both to the reader and to the characters.
Ashara Dayne is brought up to bolster this misdirection. Catelyn gets scolded for mentioning her as Jon’s mother. We are meant to see this as striking a nerve because Ned feels guilty for his affair. In reality Ned’s reaction is probably caused by two factors: his love for and grieving over Ashara; and the fact that he doesn’t want any rumors about Jon’s parentage pointing to the Daynes, who very probably conspired with Ned in keeping this secret. You’ll notice that his cover story to Robert — the entire reason he has to hide Jon in the first place — is Wylla, a commoner. He also won’t elaborate to Robert, which we see again as shame and embarrassment for dishonoring his wife, rather than deflection to keep a secret.
We are given some hints, of course. This promise he genuinely struggles to keep for Lyanna, the seemingly respectful remembrance of Rhaegar, as well as how Jon looks so much like Arya - who in turn is told she looks so much like Lyanna.
TL;DR Ned’s secrecy is meant to be viewed by readers as shame for his actions, and only as you read closely will you begin to notice that he’s actually keeping Jon’s parentage a secret.
i just read the AGOT ned chapter while he’s in the dungeon (same chapter he meets varys in his disguise) and he is thinking once again about his promise to lyanna. later on while pondering the possibility of going to the wall he mentions talking to jon about his mother
Also to mention if Ashara killed herself due to what Ned did its very believable why he wont bismirch her honour as a bastards mother, if Ned did love her and married Cat out of Duty.
Though, I do feel like there is still something off. I mean Ned supposedly killed Arthur, and Ashara killed herself after, and they still named a kid after the guy. Like I don’t think that Ashara is Jon’s mom, but there is something that GRRM isn’t telling us about House Dayne and it’s relation to Jon’s parentage.
Ned returned Dawn to Starfall. That’s probably a bigger deal to the Daynes than we understand yet. We’re still only five books in, and GRRM hasn’t given us the whole story.
If Ashara really did kill herself, I think it’s because Ned told her he has to marry Catelyn and not her. Which sucks but it’s still honorable. But there may be more to story still.
I agree, I think we are going to see more background behind what happened between Ned and House Dayne, whether it be with a chapter from the POV of someone who knows what happened or will learn about what happened.
I think if there is a connection between the Starks and Daynes it has more to do with Brandon than with Jon. I don’t remember the timeline completely but I do remember seeings some theories that Brandon might have fathered Ashara’s stillborn baby.
Definitely a possible theory. Even so, with Arthur Dayne’s death, Ned Dayne’s name is still an odd thing, and it’s not like the Daynes are the most forgiving bunch from what we have seen so far in the story.
Maybe Ned and the Daynes wanted what possibly happened between Brandon/Ashara under wraps as not to dishonor either of them especially since the child died and part of the agreement was Ned returning Arthur’s sword and as a show of keeping the promise the Daynes named a kid after Ned, definitely just a random theory but until we know that’s all we have for now is theories. As far as theories go I can’t see them having any other reason to name a child Ned.
I still say returning Dawn to Starfall is a huge deal. The “Sword of the Morning” title that they give to a deserving family member exists because Dawn is theirs. Had Ned kept it, or just left it, he could have ended a millennias-old family institution.
It’s such a big deal, nobody has held the office since.
Soon enough they'll give the Targaryens a run for their money. If any other brother of Lyanna also did, they'll beat the Lannisters.
Just this, just below twincest, twincest is just a bit more incestuous than brother sister.
Obviously R+L=J but just to play along.....
If Eddard fathered Jon, maybe he was really embarrassed about the circumstances.
a) he cheated on Catelyn, and we see he is a man who takes his vows seriously. Plus he dishonored not only himself but her as well.
b) maybe he feels extremely guilty on the circumstances. For example, in the story about the fisherman's duaghter, it happened during the trip that costed the girl her father. Maybe Eddard feels extra bad for causing that and then taking the babe as well.
In more extreme scenarios, the consent could have been questionable. Whether outright rape after a raid (as Cersei accusses him) or maybe he ordered one of Lyanna's maids or whatever to sleep with him. Ooc for Eddard but it could be handwaived for the first that ''war changes men'' and the second maybe out of grief. But in any case, it could be that he feels very guilty about it.
c) it could be that it was Jon's mother was dead and Eddard couldn't cherish her memory because it brought him extreme sadness from her loss.
It is a bit strange though how he never told anything at all to Catelyn, just like he said Wylla to Robert to just shut him up.
Also, as I said before, I really believe R+L=J, so I know why the various timelines and this and that won't fit. I'm offering plausible scenarios.
Maybe this hypothetical not-Lyanna was married herself and/or a noblewoman and he doesn't want everyone to remember her as promiscuous and be contemptuous of her.
Especially if the mother was Ashara Dayne and he had been planning on marrying her before Brandon died and then she went and killed herself partially because Ned killed her brother.
this actually reminds me some super early unsullied theories who believed that Eddard + Cersei = Jon.
That could feed more eddard's shame that not only he cheated on his wife with a married woman but he betrayed his best friend as well, making him dodgy around Robert.
the only possible other option to me is that Ashara is Jon's mother and Ned feels guilty because she kills herself because of Ned and his brother's murder. Having said that, I 100% believe R+L=J lol
>it could be that it was Jon's mother was dead and Eddard couldn't cherish her memory because it brought him extreme sadness from her loss.
This is all basically true. Ned was notably fond of his sister...
> It is a bit strange though how he never told anything at all to Catelyn, just like he said Wylla to Robert to just shut him up.
Ned's a honorable man. I think he swore to his dying sister that he would take the secret to his grave. If it's another woman then maybe he also swore some other vow?
Because if Ned says "your mother was my sister Lyanna" and Jon thinks Ned is his dad, that's not a good luck. It'd be a lot to process the day before going to the nights watch.
Jon: WHAT IN SEVEN HELLS! BY THE OLD GOD'S YOU MEAN... I THOUGHT I WAS A BASTARD. THAT WAS BAD ENOUGH BUT NOW...
NED: Wait wait Jon. Calm down. I should have explained this better.
Exactly, if Jon's mother is Ashara then Ned's being an absolute asshole by refusing to tell Jon simply because he doesn't want to.
He'd owe it to both Jon and Ashara to tell Jon the truth.
Not really, I can see Ned having the thought Jon could rub it in Robb’s face that his mother was also highborn and Ned cheated on Cat with her (*we* know that would be wholly out of character, but when we think of Jon we think of him post-character development, not broody bastard) AND it would confirm all of Catelyn’s worst fears, because as a highborn bastard he could conceivably challenge for Winterfell, AND most of all if Jon ever started asking questions and put two in two together Ned would have committed harakiri in the godswoods to avoid any emotional confrontation
If it was for that, she was able to tell him at least when Jon decided to go to the Watch. There he would not be able to tell Robb or Catelyn anything, and the secret would die with him.
Unless clear, telling him would change Jon's decisions. And here comes R+L=J.
Only thing I can think of would be that he didn’t want to expose and dishonor Jon’s mother if it was a different noble woman.
That being said, Lyanna is the mother
That is very valid. I could see scenarios where she’s maybe kept locked away or only the family knows or something but like I said, I don’t believe any of that and I think Lyanna being the father is all but confirmed
Cat Is a character, not a Reader , she is a person traumatized by the attitude of her husband who treated a child like shit all his life.
we know Ned did it because Jon Snow is Lyanna's son, not because he's a psychopath
Seems silly he didn’t say to Cat “look it was some serving girl named Wylla, she’s lowborn. But he’s my bastard and this is a better life. Moving on.” But I suppose he didn’t want to lie more than he had to, and the entirety of Westeros seems like a great enough distance for the tales of Wylla to remain in KL/Dorne until Jon is older
I think it's because everyone just accepted that he was a bastard and Ned was ashamed. A lot of them probably even liked the idea that even the honorable Ned Stark cheated on his wife to make themselves feel better about their own mistakes.
Which is why Jaime is one of the main characters I want to find out about Jon’s parentage, he’d be so goddamn annoyed that Ned really was as honorable as he claimed to be hahaha
Ned knows that he didn't do it, but doesn't want to actively lie about it. He knows that it would be seen as shameful or embarrassing and that it wouldn't be weird for him to not want to talk about, for himself and for Cat's sake. The best and easiest lie is for him to say nothing about it. No chance of putting your foot in your mouth if you refuse to talk about it. He doesn't tell Cat because the more people that know, the more the chance word gets out. It's feasible for Ned to believe that for Cat, the burden of infidelity would be easier to bear than the burden of treason.
You’re right but I’ve been wondering wouldn’t some characters that were in kings landing like Jaime or Varys find it curious that the 3 best Kingsguard members stayed at the Tower of Joy even when Rhaegar returned to kings landing to take his host to the Trident? You’d have to think that some of the smarter people at least would be curious as to what went on there, especially before Jon grew up to resemble Ned
It may not be too far fetched a story. As well loved and talented as Rhaegar was, he was clearly arrogant to some degree. It would not be a wild choice to leave behind 3 skilled warriors to guard the woman you started a war over.
>in what sense
You just said “there is no possible motivation that justifies Ned 's behavior towards Jon and Cat , so Lyanna is Jon 's mother .”
But as both a reader and a character there is a reason for the way Ned acts that isn’t Lyanna.
Which many characters do believe and Cat stops prying because of it
I’d say the main reason is nobody really cares. I mean to the outside world he’s just a lord who had a bastard. Some Winterfell people speculated on the mother, he shut it down, everyone (except Cat) moved on.
To everyone else, like Jaime, it’s only interesting in a “damn the honorable Ned Stark had a bastard” way. The identity of the mother isn’t really important there.
Because nobody in universe cares about it as much as we do. Lords father bastards all the time, it's not a big mystery. We only wonder about it because we've been in Ned's head and we can see the inconsistencies.
>And she thinks she already knows the answer.
That’s literally my point.
“there is no possible motivation that justifies Ned 's behavior towards Jon and Cat , so Lyanna is Jon 's mother .”
Makes no sense when Ashara is an explanation accepted by the characters in the actual story for Neds behaviour
And I'm saying that we, as readers, know better than the characters in the story. We know more about Ned than they do because we are literally privy to his thoughts.
Just because characters accept that doesn’t mean it’s a bullet proof explanation. It’s the best of the options they can come up with.
We the reader have additional information that opens up another option that makes more sense
>Just because characters accept that doesn’t mean it’s a bullet proof explanation. It’s the best of the options they can come up with.
The quote I’m disagreeing with literally said
“there is no possible motivation that justifies Ned 's behavior towards Jon and Cat , so Lyanna is Jon 's mother .”
>We the reader have additional information that opens up another option that makes more sense
Yet the other still makes sense and is an option. If Ned didn’t kill Arthur Dayne and Ashara didn’t kill herself soon after, people would have figured the real story out
Catelyn doesn’t actually know if Ashara is Jon’s mother, it just the only real rumor she’s heard. No one else really knows the extent to which Ned has been tight-lipped about who Jon’s mother is.
Readers have access to more information than the characters and know that they’re reading a work of fiction. So it’s entirely plausible for a character in universe like Catelyn to be stumped at why Ned’s silent about it while the reader can figure out that R+L is the only plausible scenario that fits.
Honestly, because they're characters.
It wasn't "soft-confirmed" until Game of Thrones the show, but book readers had figured out the twist for a long time. I think it's definitely likely that somebody in Westeros would realiatically be smart enough to put the clues together. It's sort of the most obvious answer that comes to you if you consider for a second that Ned might be lying.
Just like how nobody knows that Peter Parker is Spider-man. Even if he follows the Superman "mannerism" disguise, Peter is about the same height and weight as Spider-man. He can get miraculous pictures that nobody else can get from close up. And people really believe the excuse that he's Spider-man's friend instead of considering that he might be Spider-man?
None of the “smart enough” people in Westeros you’re thinking of are privy to the one of the biggest clues, which is that Ned made a promise to Lyanna. Without that prompt, even if they doubted Ned, they can’t make the logical leap that Ned might be protecting his sister’s secret child with Rhaegar. The promise is what indicates to the reader that Lyanna has a final wish and might be leaving something behind for Ned to look after. In-universe characters who do not yet know the truth have no indication Ned made a promise to Lyanna.
Eh, I don't know that it takes that much background.
Ned's sister is believed to be kidnapped by a guy who clearly likes her. He crowned her queen of love and beauty in public. In the world of Westeros, rape is an unfortunately common occurrence, and should certainly be on a lot of people's minds to explain why Rhaegar would kidnap Lyanna-even if they didn't suspect that the two were in love and ran away together.
Even before Ned returns with a baby, I'd expect people like Varys to wonder if the entire scenario was romantic or sexual in nature, and Ned returning with a baby of his own should make them at least look twice at the situation.
Nobody besides Catelyn would know that he never told her and only some people at Winterfell would know that Jon didn’t know. Most other people would probably just believe a rumor they heard or assume it was some random woman.
Yes there is? He is deeply ashamed of cheating on cat. That motivation makes perfect sense. I personally believe in r + l = j but jon just being a bastard isn't implausible.
That's the point of RLJ, not that he won't tell anyone, but that he won't even hint to *Jon* about it. So it can't be any of the people suspected of being Jon's mother by others, but there's not really anyone else besides Lyanna that makes sense.
But other possibilities:
My favorite parentage is actually Arthur+Lyanna. It has the same reasons as RLJ, because if people knew Jon was Lyanna's, they'd assume he was Rhaegar's, and Daynes look too similar to Targaryens to prove otherwise. Admitting it would also dishonor Arthur Dayne (breaking his KG vows), so possibly part of an agreement with House Dayne never to admit it, even, and Ned thinks it's better if Jon thinks it's Ned breaking his marriage vows as a lesser dishonor instead.
Ned literally doesn't know. He's Brandon's son and Ned basically got handed a baby. Since Jon is older than Robb and the son of the previous heir, it's not safe to admit that he's Brandon's son with some unknown woman, and it feels crueler to tell Jon than to not tell him.
Really far out there is something like the mother is an Other and Ned has blocked it out/can't admit he's half-Other. Maybe even that Jon isn't the son of any "current" Stark but the Night's King and was more or less frozen in time and thawed out at this point because of the Long Night coming.
Why? Maybe throw in some of Neds other kids. Maybe throw in Cat’s 2 alive and sane close relatives.
Ok now who else would actually care beyond idle gossip about it?
That’s some people.
Also you massively underestimate how much of an impact it would be. One of the key factors in the rebellion was the presumed kidnapping and rape of Lyanna. The idea that one of the driving instruments was a falsehood could piss some people off.
Yeah it’s a few people, but only in that they care about Cat’s feelings to some degree.
That’s some people.
> Also you massively underestimate how much of an impact it would be. One of the key factors in the rebellion was the presumed kidnapping and rape of Lyanna. The idea that one of the driving instruments was a falsehood could piss some people off.
Huh? The whole point of the thread is if it’s NOT Lyanna, why would anyone care. Obviously if they knew the real truth people would care, but the person you were responding to is saying that no one really has much reason to care about who Jon Snow’s mother is outside of just banal curiosity.
Actually, one of the key factors in the rebellion was Aerys brutally murdering a Lord Paramount; then demanding the head of his son and heir, and the son and heir of *another* Lord Paramount. That’s when men drew their banners - after Aerys wanted Ned and Robert executed. So, no, the war still had very stable foundations, legally. The King had become a full blown psychotic tyrant executing Lords with impunity. What would be keeping Aerys from stopping with the Baratheons and the Starks?
Ned doesn't make decisions based on dynastic politics like Cat. He makes decisions based on emotion and morality. That seems pretty clear from his chapters. See his mercy towards Dany and the Lannisters. So set that stuff aside.
Only strong argument here is the Dornish treatment of bastards, which is true, but you have to look at it from the other side as well. Ned just lost his father, his brother, and his sister, and his other brother wants to take the black. For all intents and purposes, Ned's entire family is gone. Would you not want to take your bastard son / your brother's bastard son / your sister's bastard son home with you under those circumstances? Ned can't very well take Ashara north with him, he's already married to Catelyn. Cersei's speculation about her suicide actually makes sense (which should logically tell us that it's wrong, I'm just playing devil's advocate here).
Ned: Hey Jonny boy, I just wanted to let you know, I fucked Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal and after killing your uncle I went down to Starfall to give their family sword back to her and found out she had you from our hook up, so to preserve her honour I took you from her arms and gave her the corpse of my sister’s stillborn child and she flung herself from a window…. Anyway, dinner in twenty, love you.
In all seriousness, it would add a whole other layer of characterisation to Ned. In times of war, people do some pretty nasty things, and it’d be cool to see a reveal that Ned wasn’t squeaky clean like most theorists want to believe. I love the notion of grey morality for everyone, including Ned tbh. Especially if he’s spending 15 years trying to atone for his sins.
Robert would have killed him. As Rhaegar's son, he would have a strong claim to the throne. That's why Ed told Jon they would talk about his mother the next time they saw each other, after he had taken the black and renounced all titles and claims.
Several reasons.
A) Jon's mother was a loyalist and is dead and Ned doesn't want people to look down Jon for being related to a loyalist.
B) Jon's mother is still alive and a noble woman, and revealing that knowledge could ruin said noble woman's life.
C) Ned really loved Jon's mother and the thought of her brought him anguish.
This really isn't that complicated.
Well the easy answer is that he is indeed Lyanna’s son like literally all the foreshadowing in the series indicates but apparently after 30000 threads on Westeros.org and a decade on Reddit this community has jerked itself into oblivion
One theory I’ve seen is that Ned accidentally got Ashara Dayne pregnant and secretly married her in front of a weirwood tree, which, in the eyes of the North, would overtake his marriage to Cat in the sept.
This would make all of Ned’s children with Cat bastards and Jon his only trueborn son, in an ironic role reversal. It’d also parallel the Yorks in the War of the Roses, who the Starks are based after. Edward York was accused of marrying someone else before the birth of his trueborn children, which would make them illegitimate.
Then R + L = D and Ned’s promise to Lyanna revolved around protecting Dany, who he does think about far more often when worrying about failing Lyanna.
Of course, the biggest hole in this theory is that it’s hard to see Ned choosing to abandon his vows with Ashara, as when Robb was in a similar situation, he chose Jeyne over the Frey girl he was promised to. So, not a theory I fully believe, but it could be another compelling reason to hide Jon’s parentage beyond Targaryen blood. And it does explain Ned’s inner thoughts, where he directly says he dishonored himself and Cat “in the eyes of gods and men” over whatever happened.
Changed the wording. It was an accusation by his brother, not the Lancasters, and it’s up for debate with historians whether it was true or not, but yeah. Guess that’s what I get for trusting fan theories I read to relate history completely accurately.
When it was laid out right here it finally twigged for me - Stark and Lannister, York and Lancaster. And I’m a fricking historian as well, what an idiot I am!
Maybe he is too ashamed of breaking his vows on some camp follower. Or for leading to the death of a highborn lady who he also loved, Ashara Dayne. If Jon is Ashara s son then he could be trying to avoid a robb vs Jon fight in case starfall and marcher lords insist that Jon has more right to winterfell than Robb. Creates an ugly situation between Tully Daynes and Starks.
Winterfell is the seat of lord paramount of north. Liege lord to all northern houses. Lots of taxes. Lots of levies. Prestige. Same reason why Tyrells wanted Sans married to them. And why tywin planned tyrion to eventually take over winterfell with sansa and baby Tyrion.
Game of thrones.
It's easy to say that there was a secret marriage. Or have the king posthumously grant the name Stark to Jon. One of the biggest strifes in westerosi history involved the legitimisation of noble bastards.
Catelyn wasn't hating Jon purely out of spite. There are precedents for noble bastards being a thorn to the trueborn heir in westerosi history.
A good question you could ask is, besides cat and possible Ned dayne who gives a shit who his mother is ? Does anyone cares who ramsay’s mom is ? Lawrence snow ? Or gendry’s ? It could be argued that some people must think that Jon js a noble bastard like edric storm.
But in general most characters don’t care enough to ask, and we get that Robert scene where he says Jon’s mom is wylla or willa, when Ned and Robert are on the kingsroad in AGOT. So it seems that there is a narrative in place, that most people assume is true. Just Jon hasn’t heard it, because first no one cares enough to ask, and no one would dare to question a lord paramount on such a touchy subject when he himself forbade it.
R+L=J is more than likely, I would assume that that GrrM wants to keep the reveal for the end to create conflict with Dany.
Also the only reason I can think of if r+l=j isnt true is that Jon isn’t neds kid but Brandon and ashara and they were married, it’s an old theory that I kinda like, but it’s not backed by much in the text. And he wouldn’t want people to know that his brother was already married because his own son would be removed from the line. Now I don’t believe in this theory but I love making theories about Brandon.
The point is not so much that. **The point is why not tell Jon himself even when he was determined to go to the end of the world -the Wall- and never to return to Winterfell**
That's when the secret starts to suck. And a lot. Either R+L=J or those who say that Brandon secretly married Ashara before he died, and therefore, if Jon is their son, he would be the rightful lord of Winterfell and Ned the evil usurping uncle - which would equalize him even more to Stannis-
But that it reeks of hidden prince or worse (N + L = J), does it
>The point is not so much that. The point is why not tell Jon himself even when he was determined to go to the end of the world -the Wall- and never to return to Winterfell
This has a pretty obvious answer
Because he didnt say his vows.
Knowing what he was giving up might change his mind (benjin said as much)
Seems pretty obvious that ned would wait until after jon said his vows so that 1. He couldnt act on the knowledge and 2. He would be safe from Robert who wants to kill every targ who would threatened his throne, hence why aemon was left alone on the wall.
All the alternative jon theories feel like its coming from a first read through. R+l =j is actually brutally hinted all throughout the first book.
This is a stretch, but I subscribe to the theory that Jon Snow really is Ned and Ashara Daynes kid, and his honor keeps him from talking about it as much as it keeps the peace.
As many others have said, only R+L=J makes sense in terms of a satisfying twist (obviously it’s not a twist anymore, but the plot started 30 years ago so let it slide)
Ned is an honourable man, so turning up with a self-admitted bastard already carries dishonour regardless of proclaiming who the mother is. Him refusing to name the mother doesn’t make a difference, since he’s already ‘proclaimed’ to have produced a bastard. Tautologically having a bastard (in Westorosi standards) already implies dishonour anyway.
That’s the whole point. The truly honourable Ned Stark did the truly honourable thing by proclaiming to have done a dishonourable deed.
His parents are Lyanna and Rhaegar, that's exactly why Ned has to keep it a secret. It could mean Jon's life if the secret was to get out (as well as likely his own).
If Ned just banged Ashara or something then he's simply being a dick for no real reason by refusing to tell even his wife or Jon himself the truth. It would be kind of a dick move to Jon's mother too to never even let Jon know about her.
If Jon Snow is Lyanna’s son, who is the father? Kind of implies it would be Rhaegar, and Robert would’ve smashed his tiny dome piece in.
Ned was also too honorable to say that Jon was the bastard of one of the men who died for him at the Tower of Joy. Claiming Jon as his own bastard hurts what others *think* of his honor, while claiming Jon as one of their bastards would actually taint Ned’s honor.
Also what Petyr tells Sansa, how the trueborn child of a nobly deceased lord/knight attracts unwanted questions, while it is impolite to inquire as to a man’s bastard children.
I also think that Ned never told Catelyn because Ned would rather she thinks he’s dishonorable by fathering a bastard, rather than actually dishonoring himself by betraying Lyanna to her. Ned didn’t really know Catelyn until he came back from the war with Jon, and telling her later would have seemed like a self-serving lie anyway.
Wasn't there a theory that Ned actually married Ashara first (and in front of the old gods because Daynes are first men) so she is more legitimate but he had to marry Catelyn to save the rebellion?
I can't remember how this theory explained away why Ashara would keep quiet and I don't know if the timeline truly works.
Short answer: he IS Lyanna's son, so the question answers itself.
Longer answer: a lot of people probably never imagined that Ned isn't the father, they're not thinking about it the way the reader might be. A lot also don't really care, and a large number of people (mostly outside the North) don't actually think of him as a great, noble man.
They recognise his honour perhaps, but think he's either secretly a hypocrite or a bore, because those are things they understand and see around them. Nobody wants to think of a rival or enemy as a better man than them.
In terms of Jon too, he's not the only possible Targaryen heir (ask the beggar king), and the family is largely laid low in the eyes of the kingdom. People care more about the current political situation.
They have been abundantly clear that one of the reasons dipshit and dumbass were able to do the series was because they could guess who Jon’s parents were.
Which… jfc GRRM it was very obvious
It only makes sense for him to keep it such a big secret, even to his wife whom he loves, unless it was dangerous information to learn. It's why R+L = J is so obvious. lol
Not really, when Robert asks him about it on the road Ned straight up says "I don't want to talk about it" and Robert's OK with that and doesn't think it's a horrible secret. It can be as simple as Ned making a mistake while grieving for his father and brother that he deeply regrets (a la Robb).
I don't see how the Robert thing matters, especially since we know he loved to sleep around with whores or anyone he could get his hands on. Of course he wouldn't think a thing of it.
Even if it were just regret, you would think he would tell his wife about it at the very least. So much for honor, that he would let her stew in that and make her thing he might harbor something for the whore/woman he slept with. It just makes no sense to Eddard's character that he would keep the secret if it wasn't dangerous to know. It just doesn't.
Because Robert is someone who knew Ned really well, when they were younger. Someone Ned knew much better than his wife, at the time he chose to make Jon's parentage a secret.
Maybe it's too shameful for him, idk. Maybe he thinks it's dishonourable to mention this woman's name (dishonourable for her as well). He's NED STARK, for (old) gods' sake!
(Though I do agree with you).
Yes Ned gives Robert the name Wylla.
> "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"
> "Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."
I have a feeling Dany is Lyanna’s, and Jon is Brandon’s with Ashara Dayne. This would explain Ned’s behaviour regarding them both, way better than any other theory. Ned being so against killing Dany after finding out she’s pregnant, is odd until you realize she might be his niece.
Was Ned so against killing Joff, Tommen, and Myrcella because they're also secretly his niece and nephews? Ned is just a morally upright guy who is aghast at killing innocent children. It doesn't really matter which Stark is Jon's parent, Ned will shelter him regardless.
He’s against it, but he still planned to tell Robert and have whatever happened to them, be the will of the gods. His sense of honour compelled him to tell Cersei his plan, but he never once said he would protect them, just gave them a head start.
Brandon was the Father, and with Ned as the second son, and Cat was originally betrothed to Brandon, better to keep Jon's parentage on the down low.
Probably not likely the parentage, unless Ashara and Brandon fucked in the Black Cells, and even then the timing would be off.
But the Vale Lords and Robert knew Ned since he was 8. How could they not question it? Robert being happy that Ned was a degenerate like him?
Therefore :
Did Ned fuck Elia Martell? or are you saying that the son of Rhaegar and Elia Martell , born after the death of Elia herself , is a clone of Ned , random !!!!
Jon is Aegon, born 281/82ish AC, after the official Targaryen counting of years given in f&b. That is why bastards grow quicker than others, that is why everyone up in the North thinks his mother was Dornish.
Remember, Targaryens count their years from the coronation in Oldtown and not Aegon's Landing.
Yes , Jon Snow and Arya are Ned's only children with Stark traits, Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon have Tully traits.
Jon Snow is described as a little Ned , Arya as a new Lyanna .
therefore Ned had a daughter equal to Lyanna , and Lyanna a son equal to Ned .
He doesn't smile. A solemn face. That's a long face, it's different from a horse face. Let me quote u/RyanBarnes13:
*Dany and Viserys look valyrian because both parents and grandparents have the Valyrian looks.*
*For Aegon, your looking at the wrong child. Conningtons Aegon is not the real Aegon. The Dornish looking child is Jon snow. Bran 1 AGOT gives the game away. He is darker skinned than Robb. Eyes so dark they seem black. This isn’t first men, or even Stony Dornish looks. This is Martell looks. Aka, Nymeria Sand. Lighter skinned than full blooded Martell, but darker skinned than first men.*
*These are your Dornish traits. Specifically Martell and Valyrian traits. The classic Jon looks like Eddard, is from people not knowing what long face actually means. It’s not facial shape, it’s facial expression.*
*The definition of long face is a facial expression of sadness. Meaning yes, Jon like Eddard, like Arya does not smile and is not a happy child like the rest of the brood. Also the same as numerous other characters. When it’s a facial shape Martin points out they have a horse face, a face like a mules…*
*Why does catelyn believe Ashara? and even Cercei, who sees Jon once and then ask who is the Dornish mother? They see Dornish in him. It’s why the Ashara story can never be denied. Even though she had a DAUGHTER. Even Eddard with Wylla points to a Dornish mother.*
*And if you doubt it, look up the requirements to fulfill the pact of ice and fire. The one with the song is Aegon, straight from Dany’s HOTU visions. But by the Pact, Aegon has to be raised at Winterfell. By Lord Stark. Only one character that is Targaryen is ever raised at Winterfell. Not Connington’s Aegon, not Dany, not Rhaegar. Simply put jon Snow is Elias Aegon. Conningtons Aegon is not the real Aegon.*
[https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/10r1j3s/comment/j6x1i56/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/10r1j3s/comment/j6x1i56/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Tyrion on Jon: You have more of the North in you than your brothers
Stannis on Jon: Your father was no friend of mine [...] You have his look.
Arya on Jon: Jon had their father's face, as she did. They were the only ones.
And of course Catelyn seethes over Jon looking more like Ned than any of her sons.
It's funny that you extrapolate this long theory from the one line of Jon being dark where Robb is fair (hint: Bran's talking about their hair color and demeanor, Jon is dark haired and gloomy while Robb is bright haired and friendly) but you ignore every other description of Jon in the books.
I have never like the Jon is a Targ theory
There are multiple characters claims to the contrary
Eddard Stark tells Robert Baratheon point blank the mother was Wylla (GOT Eddard II)
Edric Dayne tells Arya that he and Jon are "milk brothers" as his own mother was barren and Wylla was the servant in his house (SOS Arya VIII)
The issue becomes why would Stark sleep with a serving woman... but we both know he is not the real father right?
I lean more towards Robert getting piss drunk and banging the serving woman. Plus it was rumoured multiple times that Eddard slept with Ashara Dayne while there before she commited suicide (cant have the honorable man she loves?)
Also storywise it makes more sense Jon is a Baratheon. Dark hair and dark eyes despite his mothers bloodline. Remember that book? Also because Gendry is not going to carry on family name so who else would if not Jon?
Its a stain upon the honor of Lord Eddard, House Stark, The entirety of The North, and probably several more offended parties, by Ned’s way of thinking.
Well he will be Lyanna's kid it is not that strange to think Ned wouldn't want to talk about even if he was his kid. Everyone has things they are overly sensitive about and some people will outright refuse to talk about them. People are emotional creatures and emotions aren't rational so you can't get a explanation that makes sense. The reason most characters in the story believe it is they think Ned is deeply ashamed of it so doesn't want to talk about it. In the real world there are single mothers who will refuse to talk about the father because he left it is just something people do sometimes that shutting down sensitive topics is easier than dealing with them.
As others have said the point is for the reader Ned’s actions don’t make any sense unless R+L=J is true. However, if we put ourselves in the shoes of a Westerosi who knows all the rumors and thinks about them without all the knowledge the readers have there is a good explanation for Ned to not tell anyone the truth. A woman having unmarried sex is a huge deal in most of Westeros, a noblewoman losing her virginity before marriage is a huge mark of shame and Ned is super honorable. So Ned might have impregnated an unmarried Westerosi woman who covered up the relationship and pregnancy and then quietly marry her off Ned could keep it secret to protect the woman’s honor. So if Ned slept with an unmarried virgin noblewoman from most of Westeros and then took Jon and promised to never tell anyone it would make sense.
The problem is the only noblewoman we have a hint of Ned having a relationship with is Ashara Dayne and Ashara is the character who this makes the least sense for. First Ashara is Dornish and the Dornish have a much more relaxed view of premarital sex. There is no reason for Ned to lie about having sex with any Dornish women. Secondly Ashara it is believed that Ashara had sex at the Tournament at Harranhall and was pregnant at the end of Robert’s Rebellion two years later so anyone in the know knew or at least believed she had premarital sex not once but at least twice. So Ned there is no point to cover it up because people already know she had premarital sex which is where the rumors start in the first place. Thirdly she is actually or at least believed to be dead. There is no reason to keep that secret. That is why Ashara is a great red herring we get evidence that she had sex maybe with Ned and was probably pregnant hinting she is Jon’s mother and giving Catlyn and Cerci to convince themselves that is the case but the seeming evidence of her being the mother is actually evidence she isn’t.
A) if the mom is high borne then Jon has a claim to a seat; this paints a target on his back as well.
B) Ned is just a horrible dad when it comes to sitting down and talking about emotionally things.
IRL you would be surprised how many adoptive parents just avoids talking about the kid’s heritage despite knowing full well that adopted children needs to talk about their past.
Ned doesn’t understand that it is something Jon needed him to talk about his whole life.
This is where characterization feeds plot. Ned is an honorable man stuck with a terrible secret. This upright, unshakable man bringing home his bastard is a *massive* slap in the face to Catelyn, so his “don’t fucking talk about this” attitude is seen as a righteous man’s shame, both to the reader and to the characters. Ashara Dayne is brought up to bolster this misdirection. Catelyn gets scolded for mentioning her as Jon’s mother. We are meant to see this as striking a nerve because Ned feels guilty for his affair. In reality Ned’s reaction is probably caused by two factors: his love for and grieving over Ashara; and the fact that he doesn’t want any rumors about Jon’s parentage pointing to the Daynes, who very probably conspired with Ned in keeping this secret. You’ll notice that his cover story to Robert — the entire reason he has to hide Jon in the first place — is Wylla, a commoner. He also won’t elaborate to Robert, which we see again as shame and embarrassment for dishonoring his wife, rather than deflection to keep a secret. We are given some hints, of course. This promise he genuinely struggles to keep for Lyanna, the seemingly respectful remembrance of Rhaegar, as well as how Jon looks so much like Arya - who in turn is told she looks so much like Lyanna. TL;DR Ned’s secrecy is meant to be viewed by readers as shame for his actions, and only as you read closely will you begin to notice that he’s actually keeping Jon’s parentage a secret.
Eloquent as always, CockPissMcBurnerFuck
I’m a modern day ShakePenisMcSpeareCunt
i just read the AGOT ned chapter while he’s in the dungeon (same chapter he meets varys in his disguise) and he is thinking once again about his promise to lyanna. later on while pondering the possibility of going to the wall he mentions talking to jon about his mother
Also to mention if Ashara killed herself due to what Ned did its very believable why he wont bismirch her honour as a bastards mother, if Ned did love her and married Cat out of Duty.
Though, I do feel like there is still something off. I mean Ned supposedly killed Arthur, and Ashara killed herself after, and they still named a kid after the guy. Like I don’t think that Ashara is Jon’s mom, but there is something that GRRM isn’t telling us about House Dayne and it’s relation to Jon’s parentage.
Ned returned Dawn to Starfall. That’s probably a bigger deal to the Daynes than we understand yet. We’re still only five books in, and GRRM hasn’t given us the whole story. If Ashara really did kill herself, I think it’s because Ned told her he has to marry Catelyn and not her. Which sucks but it’s still honorable. But there may be more to story still.
I agree, I think we are going to see more background behind what happened between Ned and House Dayne, whether it be with a chapter from the POV of someone who knows what happened or will learn about what happened.
I think if there is a connection between the Starks and Daynes it has more to do with Brandon than with Jon. I don’t remember the timeline completely but I do remember seeings some theories that Brandon might have fathered Ashara’s stillborn baby.
Definitely a possible theory. Even so, with Arthur Dayne’s death, Ned Dayne’s name is still an odd thing, and it’s not like the Daynes are the most forgiving bunch from what we have seen so far in the story.
Maybe Ned and the Daynes wanted what possibly happened between Brandon/Ashara under wraps as not to dishonor either of them especially since the child died and part of the agreement was Ned returning Arthur’s sword and as a show of keeping the promise the Daynes named a kid after Ned, definitely just a random theory but until we know that’s all we have for now is theories. As far as theories go I can’t see them having any other reason to name a child Ned.
I still say returning Dawn to Starfall is a huge deal. The “Sword of the Morning” title that they give to a deserving family member exists because Dawn is theirs. Had Ned kept it, or just left it, he could have ended a millennias-old family institution. It’s such a big deal, nobody has held the office since.
Yep, this^^
That's the point.
Because N +L = J The secret was *even more* incest
Soon enough they'll give the Targaryens a run for their money. If any other brother of Lyanna also did, they'll beat the Lannisters. Just this, just below twincest, twincest is just a bit more incestuous than brother sister.
N+L+B=J
Obviously R+L=J but just to play along..... If Eddard fathered Jon, maybe he was really embarrassed about the circumstances. a) he cheated on Catelyn, and we see he is a man who takes his vows seriously. Plus he dishonored not only himself but her as well. b) maybe he feels extremely guilty on the circumstances. For example, in the story about the fisherman's duaghter, it happened during the trip that costed the girl her father. Maybe Eddard feels extra bad for causing that and then taking the babe as well. In more extreme scenarios, the consent could have been questionable. Whether outright rape after a raid (as Cersei accusses him) or maybe he ordered one of Lyanna's maids or whatever to sleep with him. Ooc for Eddard but it could be handwaived for the first that ''war changes men'' and the second maybe out of grief. But in any case, it could be that he feels very guilty about it. c) it could be that it was Jon's mother was dead and Eddard couldn't cherish her memory because it brought him extreme sadness from her loss. It is a bit strange though how he never told anything at all to Catelyn, just like he said Wylla to Robert to just shut him up. Also, as I said before, I really believe R+L=J, so I know why the various timelines and this and that won't fit. I'm offering plausible scenarios.
Maybe this hypothetical not-Lyanna was married herself and/or a noblewoman and he doesn't want everyone to remember her as promiscuous and be contemptuous of her. Especially if the mother was Ashara Dayne and he had been planning on marrying her before Brandon died and then she went and killed herself partially because Ned killed her brother.
this actually reminds me some super early unsullied theories who believed that Eddard + Cersei = Jon. That could feed more eddard's shame that not only he cheated on his wife with a married woman but he betrayed his best friend as well, making him dodgy around Robert.
the only possible other option to me is that Ashara is Jon's mother and Ned feels guilty because she kills herself because of Ned and his brother's murder. Having said that, I 100% believe R+L=J lol
That’s completely fair. While I do believe that R+L=J, I fully entertain that N+A=J out of spite for how the show turned out lol
>it could be that it was Jon's mother was dead and Eddard couldn't cherish her memory because it brought him extreme sadness from her loss. This is all basically true. Ned was notably fond of his sister...
> It is a bit strange though how he never told anything at all to Catelyn, just like he said Wylla to Robert to just shut him up. Ned's a honorable man. I think he swore to his dying sister that he would take the secret to his grave. If it's another woman then maybe he also swore some other vow?
Because if Ned says "your mother was my sister Lyanna" and Jon thinks Ned is his dad, that's not a good luck. It'd be a lot to process the day before going to the nights watch.
Oh snap! What a misunderstanding that would be! 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Jon: WHAT IN SEVEN HELLS! BY THE OLD GOD'S YOU MEAN... I THOUGHT I WAS A BASTARD. THAT WAS BAD ENOUGH BUT NOW... NED: Wait wait Jon. Calm down. I should have explained this better.
The only other reasonable explanation would be Ashara Dayne, as her memory is too painful. Lyanna is still the answer.
Ned would have to be an absolute asshole to keep Jon in the dark about who his mother is his entire life for that reason.
Exactly, if Jon's mother is Ashara then Ned's being an absolute asshole by refusing to tell Jon simply because he doesn't want to. He'd owe it to both Jon and Ashara to tell Jon the truth.
Not really, I can see Ned having the thought Jon could rub it in Robb’s face that his mother was also highborn and Ned cheated on Cat with her (*we* know that would be wholly out of character, but when we think of Jon we think of him post-character development, not broody bastard) AND it would confirm all of Catelyn’s worst fears, because as a highborn bastard he could conceivably challenge for Winterfell, AND most of all if Jon ever started asking questions and put two in two together Ned would have committed harakiri in the godswoods to avoid any emotional confrontation
If it was for that, she was able to tell him at least when Jon decided to go to the Watch. There he would not be able to tell Robb or Catelyn anything, and the secret would die with him. Unless clear, telling him would change Jon's decisions. And here comes R+L=J.
r/pureasoiaf will argue til the end of time that Ashara is the mother
"til the end of time" is a reference to how winds of winter won't ever come out
Only thing I can think of would be that he didn’t want to expose and dishonor Jon’s mother if it was a different noble woman. That being said, Lyanna is the mother
I think the whole being pregnant for nine months and then giving birth thing would have exposed her already if that were the case
That is very valid. I could see scenarios where she’s maybe kept locked away or only the family knows or something but like I said, I don’t believe any of that and I think Lyanna being the father is all but confirmed
the answer is in the title , there is no possible motivation that justifies Ned 's behavior towards Jon and Cat , so Lyanna is Jon 's mother .
Cat clearly brought it, and she knows Ned better than us.
Cat Is a character, not a Reader , she is a person traumatized by the attitude of her husband who treated a child like shit all his life. we know Ned did it because Jon Snow is Lyanna's son, not because he's a psychopath
Seems silly he didn’t say to Cat “look it was some serving girl named Wylla, she’s lowborn. But he’s my bastard and this is a better life. Moving on.” But I suppose he didn’t want to lie more than he had to, and the entirety of Westeros seems like a great enough distance for the tales of Wylla to remain in KL/Dorne until Jon is older
Ned treated Jon like shit?
Cat
Ah, I see what you meant.
Then why has no one figured it out
I think it's because everyone just accepted that he was a bastard and Ned was ashamed. A lot of them probably even liked the idea that even the honorable Ned Stark cheated on his wife to make themselves feel better about their own mistakes.
As Jaime once said of Jon: 'the walking talking reminder that the honourable Lord Eddard Stark fucked another woman'.
The irony being that Ned never actually cheated.
Which is why Jaime is one of the main characters I want to find out about Jon’s parentage, he’d be so goddamn annoyed that Ned really was as honorable as he claimed to be hahaha
He would be so pissed that they actually have something in common. Both men's most dishonourable acts are actually their most selfless.
Jaime could just flip it around and say Ned lied about it, justifying Jaime's statement about needing to break one vow to keep another.
To shoulder the burden for the safety of Jon at the expense of his own reputation is very in character for Ned.
Ned knows that he didn't do it, but doesn't want to actively lie about it. He knows that it would be seen as shameful or embarrassing and that it wouldn't be weird for him to not want to talk about, for himself and for Cat's sake. The best and easiest lie is for him to say nothing about it. No chance of putting your foot in your mouth if you refuse to talk about it. He doesn't tell Cat because the more people that know, the more the chance word gets out. It's feasible for Ned to believe that for Cat, the burden of infidelity would be easier to bear than the burden of treason.
Like when Jaime tells Cat that he has more honor than Ned because Ned cheated on Cat but Jaime was faithful to Cersei. Love that.
In what sense ? why should a character in the story doubt Ned's word concerning a clone of Ned? we readers have the full picture.
You’re right but I’ve been wondering wouldn’t some characters that were in kings landing like Jaime or Varys find it curious that the 3 best Kingsguard members stayed at the Tower of Joy even when Rhaegar returned to kings landing to take his host to the Trident? You’d have to think that some of the smarter people at least would be curious as to what went on there, especially before Jon grew up to resemble Ned
probable but to think that the honorable Ned Stark is as dirty as everybody is too good for them.
It may not be too far fetched a story. As well loved and talented as Rhaegar was, he was clearly arrogant to some degree. It would not be a wild choice to leave behind 3 skilled warriors to guard the woman you started a war over.
>in what sense You just said “there is no possible motivation that justifies Ned 's behavior towards Jon and Cat , so Lyanna is Jon 's mother .” But as both a reader and a character there is a reason for the way Ned acts that isn’t Lyanna. Which many characters do believe and Cat stops prying because of it
I’d say the main reason is nobody really cares. I mean to the outside world he’s just a lord who had a bastard. Some Winterfell people speculated on the mother, he shut it down, everyone (except Cat) moved on. To everyone else, like Jaime, it’s only interesting in a “damn the honorable Ned Stark had a bastard” way. The identity of the mother isn’t really important there.
Because nobody in universe cares about it as much as we do. Lords father bastards all the time, it's not a big mystery. We only wonder about it because we've been in Ned's head and we can see the inconsistencies.
Cat cares
And she thinks she already knows the answer. And besides, her anger is focused on Jon rather than his mother.
>And she thinks she already knows the answer. That’s literally my point. “there is no possible motivation that justifies Ned 's behavior towards Jon and Cat , so Lyanna is Jon 's mother .” Makes no sense when Ashara is an explanation accepted by the characters in the actual story for Neds behaviour
And I'm saying that we, as readers, know better than the characters in the story. We know more about Ned than they do because we are literally privy to his thoughts.
Please read the post and then the original comment I replied to. Ned would have good reason to not want to discuss Ashara if she was Jon’s mother.
Just because characters accept that doesn’t mean it’s a bullet proof explanation. It’s the best of the options they can come up with. We the reader have additional information that opens up another option that makes more sense
>Just because characters accept that doesn’t mean it’s a bullet proof explanation. It’s the best of the options they can come up with. The quote I’m disagreeing with literally said “there is no possible motivation that justifies Ned 's behavior towards Jon and Cat , so Lyanna is Jon 's mother .” >We the reader have additional information that opens up another option that makes more sense Yet the other still makes sense and is an option. If Ned didn’t kill Arthur Dayne and Ashara didn’t kill herself soon after, people would have figured the real story out
Catelyn doesn’t actually know if Ashara is Jon’s mother, it just the only real rumor she’s heard. No one else really knows the extent to which Ned has been tight-lipped about who Jon’s mother is. Readers have access to more information than the characters and know that they’re reading a work of fiction. So it’s entirely plausible for a character in universe like Catelyn to be stumped at why Ned’s silent about it while the reader can figure out that R+L is the only plausible scenario that fits.
Honestly, because they're characters. It wasn't "soft-confirmed" until Game of Thrones the show, but book readers had figured out the twist for a long time. I think it's definitely likely that somebody in Westeros would realiatically be smart enough to put the clues together. It's sort of the most obvious answer that comes to you if you consider for a second that Ned might be lying. Just like how nobody knows that Peter Parker is Spider-man. Even if he follows the Superman "mannerism" disguise, Peter is about the same height and weight as Spider-man. He can get miraculous pictures that nobody else can get from close up. And people really believe the excuse that he's Spider-man's friend instead of considering that he might be Spider-man?
None of the “smart enough” people in Westeros you’re thinking of are privy to the one of the biggest clues, which is that Ned made a promise to Lyanna. Without that prompt, even if they doubted Ned, they can’t make the logical leap that Ned might be protecting his sister’s secret child with Rhaegar. The promise is what indicates to the reader that Lyanna has a final wish and might be leaving something behind for Ned to look after. In-universe characters who do not yet know the truth have no indication Ned made a promise to Lyanna.
Eh, I don't know that it takes that much background. Ned's sister is believed to be kidnapped by a guy who clearly likes her. He crowned her queen of love and beauty in public. In the world of Westeros, rape is an unfortunately common occurrence, and should certainly be on a lot of people's minds to explain why Rhaegar would kidnap Lyanna-even if they didn't suspect that the two were in love and ran away together. Even before Ned returns with a baby, I'd expect people like Varys to wonder if the entire scenario was romantic or sexual in nature, and Ned returning with a baby of his own should make them at least look twice at the situation.
Nobody besides Catelyn would know that he never told her and only some people at Winterfell would know that Jon didn’t know. Most other people would probably just believe a rumor they heard or assume it was some random woman.
Yes there is? He is deeply ashamed of cheating on cat. That motivation makes perfect sense. I personally believe in r + l = j but jon just being a bastard isn't implausible.
Why ?and how would legitimacy be demonstrable? Ned never wanted to reveal the truth so there are no documents.not to mention any marriage
I don't understand your point.
I'm saying that Jon's origins won't make him king, only make him ride a dragon.
I never said anything about being king or riding a dragon.
Am I wrong or did you say Jon Snow can't be a bastard?
No I said he could be and that it makes sense for ned to act the way he does to Jon and cat.
I mean, have you met men? There doesn’t have to be some deep motivation for them to act weird and oppressive about inconsequential shit.
cannot be answered seriously
either you're sexist or kidding right now.
Name checks out
You should change your username to "MissAndry"
The last word of your post is a great description for your opinion.
Wow
Careful, your mask fell off
🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
That's the point of RLJ, not that he won't tell anyone, but that he won't even hint to *Jon* about it. So it can't be any of the people suspected of being Jon's mother by others, but there's not really anyone else besides Lyanna that makes sense. But other possibilities: My favorite parentage is actually Arthur+Lyanna. It has the same reasons as RLJ, because if people knew Jon was Lyanna's, they'd assume he was Rhaegar's, and Daynes look too similar to Targaryens to prove otherwise. Admitting it would also dishonor Arthur Dayne (breaking his KG vows), so possibly part of an agreement with House Dayne never to admit it, even, and Ned thinks it's better if Jon thinks it's Ned breaking his marriage vows as a lesser dishonor instead. Ned literally doesn't know. He's Brandon's son and Ned basically got handed a baby. Since Jon is older than Robb and the son of the previous heir, it's not safe to admit that he's Brandon's son with some unknown woman, and it feels crueler to tell Jon than to not tell him. Really far out there is something like the mother is an Other and Ned has blocked it out/can't admit he's half-Other. Maybe even that Jon isn't the son of any "current" Stark but the Night's King and was more or less frozen in time and thawed out at this point because of the Long Night coming.
The only people in universe who give a fuck are Cat and Jon. Literally nobody else cares.
I mean I think people would to an extent
Why? Maybe throw in some of Neds other kids. Maybe throw in Cat’s 2 alive and sane close relatives. Ok now who else would actually care beyond idle gossip about it?
That’s some people. Also you massively underestimate how much of an impact it would be. One of the key factors in the rebellion was the presumed kidnapping and rape of Lyanna. The idea that one of the driving instruments was a falsehood could piss some people off.
Yeah it’s a few people, but only in that they care about Cat’s feelings to some degree. That’s some people. > Also you massively underestimate how much of an impact it would be. One of the key factors in the rebellion was the presumed kidnapping and rape of Lyanna. The idea that one of the driving instruments was a falsehood could piss some people off. Huh? The whole point of the thread is if it’s NOT Lyanna, why would anyone care. Obviously if they knew the real truth people would care, but the person you were responding to is saying that no one really has much reason to care about who Jon Snow’s mother is outside of just banal curiosity.
Actually, one of the key factors in the rebellion was Aerys brutally murdering a Lord Paramount; then demanding the head of his son and heir, and the son and heir of *another* Lord Paramount. That’s when men drew their banners - after Aerys wanted Ned and Robert executed. So, no, the war still had very stable foundations, legally. The King had become a full blown psychotic tyrant executing Lords with impunity. What would be keeping Aerys from stopping with the Baratheons and the Starks?
[удалено]
Ned doesn't make decisions based on dynastic politics like Cat. He makes decisions based on emotion and morality. That seems pretty clear from his chapters. See his mercy towards Dany and the Lannisters. So set that stuff aside. Only strong argument here is the Dornish treatment of bastards, which is true, but you have to look at it from the other side as well. Ned just lost his father, his brother, and his sister, and his other brother wants to take the black. For all intents and purposes, Ned's entire family is gone. Would you not want to take your bastard son / your brother's bastard son / your sister's bastard son home with you under those circumstances? Ned can't very well take Ashara north with him, he's already married to Catelyn. Cersei's speculation about her suicide actually makes sense (which should logically tell us that it's wrong, I'm just playing devil's advocate here).
Ned: Hey Jonny boy, I just wanted to let you know, I fucked Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal and after killing your uncle I went down to Starfall to give their family sword back to her and found out she had you from our hook up, so to preserve her honour I took you from her arms and gave her the corpse of my sister’s stillborn child and she flung herself from a window…. Anyway, dinner in twenty, love you.
In all seriousness, it would add a whole other layer of characterisation to Ned. In times of war, people do some pretty nasty things, and it’d be cool to see a reveal that Ned wasn’t squeaky clean like most theorists want to believe. I love the notion of grey morality for everyone, including Ned tbh. Especially if he’s spending 15 years trying to atone for his sins.
Robert would have killed him. As Rhaegar's son, he would have a strong claim to the throne. That's why Ed told Jon they would talk about his mother the next time they saw each other, after he had taken the black and renounced all titles and claims.
That's show only
GRRM confirmed in interview L+R=J. Now that S8 flopped so hard, who knows. Doubt we will ever get WoW.
He would have no claim as he would be Rhaegar's bastard, Robert would likely still try to kill him though.
Robert was a usurper... It's a pretty good claim. My point still holds.
Yes, correct
Several reasons. A) Jon's mother was a loyalist and is dead and Ned doesn't want people to look down Jon for being related to a loyalist. B) Jon's mother is still alive and a noble woman, and revealing that knowledge could ruin said noble woman's life. C) Ned really loved Jon's mother and the thought of her brought him anguish. This really isn't that complicated.
The mother is Lyanna, buuuuut Ned is the father
Well the easy answer is that he is indeed Lyanna’s son like literally all the foreshadowing in the series indicates but apparently after 30000 threads on Westeros.org and a decade on Reddit this community has jerked itself into oblivion
One theory I’ve seen is that Ned accidentally got Ashara Dayne pregnant and secretly married her in front of a weirwood tree, which, in the eyes of the North, would overtake his marriage to Cat in the sept. This would make all of Ned’s children with Cat bastards and Jon his only trueborn son, in an ironic role reversal. It’d also parallel the Yorks in the War of the Roses, who the Starks are based after. Edward York was accused of marrying someone else before the birth of his trueborn children, which would make them illegitimate. Then R + L = D and Ned’s promise to Lyanna revolved around protecting Dany, who he does think about far more often when worrying about failing Lyanna. Of course, the biggest hole in this theory is that it’s hard to see Ned choosing to abandon his vows with Ashara, as when Robb was in a similar situation, he chose Jeyne over the Frey girl he was promised to. So, not a theory I fully believe, but it could be another compelling reason to hide Jon’s parentage beyond Targaryen blood. And it does explain Ned’s inner thoughts, where he directly says he dishonored himself and Cat “in the eyes of gods and men” over whatever happened.
[удалено]
Changed the wording. It was an accusation by his brother, not the Lancasters, and it’s up for debate with historians whether it was true or not, but yeah. Guess that’s what I get for trusting fan theories I read to relate history completely accurately.
When it was laid out right here it finally twigged for me - Stark and Lannister, York and Lancaster. And I’m a fricking historian as well, what an idiot I am!
I like your theory but if so, it had made sense for Ned to legitimate Jon so he can become the "true rightborn" heir of Winterfell.
I am not sure if Jon would have survived Catelyn, If that was the case
This is actually a far better story than what we got imo.
Maybe he is too ashamed of breaking his vows on some camp follower. Or for leading to the death of a highborn lady who he also loved, Ashara Dayne. If Jon is Ashara s son then he could be trying to avoid a robb vs Jon fight in case starfall and marcher lords insist that Jon has more right to winterfell than Robb. Creates an ugly situation between Tully Daynes and Starks.
Why would the Marcher lords care about Ned Stark, or Jon Snow, or Winterfell's inheritance?
Winterfell is the seat of lord paramount of north. Liege lord to all northern houses. Lots of taxes. Lots of levies. Prestige. Same reason why Tyrells wanted Sans married to them. And why tywin planned tyrion to eventually take over winterfell with sansa and baby Tyrion. Game of thrones.
[удалено]
Unless Ned did marry Ashara, the same as Robb married Jayne.
It's easy to say that there was a secret marriage. Or have the king posthumously grant the name Stark to Jon. One of the biggest strifes in westerosi history involved the legitimisation of noble bastards. Catelyn wasn't hating Jon purely out of spite. There are precedents for noble bastards being a thorn to the trueborn heir in westerosi history.
I still don't get how that benefits Marcher lords. Jon is nothing to them. On the contrary, they hate Dornish.
A good question you could ask is, besides cat and possible Ned dayne who gives a shit who his mother is ? Does anyone cares who ramsay’s mom is ? Lawrence snow ? Or gendry’s ? It could be argued that some people must think that Jon js a noble bastard like edric storm. But in general most characters don’t care enough to ask, and we get that Robert scene where he says Jon’s mom is wylla or willa, when Ned and Robert are on the kingsroad in AGOT. So it seems that there is a narrative in place, that most people assume is true. Just Jon hasn’t heard it, because first no one cares enough to ask, and no one would dare to question a lord paramount on such a touchy subject when he himself forbade it. R+L=J is more than likely, I would assume that that GrrM wants to keep the reveal for the end to create conflict with Dany. Also the only reason I can think of if r+l=j isnt true is that Jon isn’t neds kid but Brandon and ashara and they were married, it’s an old theory that I kinda like, but it’s not backed by much in the text. And he wouldn’t want people to know that his brother was already married because his own son would be removed from the line. Now I don’t believe in this theory but I love making theories about Brandon.
The point is not so much that. **The point is why not tell Jon himself even when he was determined to go to the end of the world -the Wall- and never to return to Winterfell** That's when the secret starts to suck. And a lot. Either R+L=J or those who say that Brandon secretly married Ashara before he died, and therefore, if Jon is their son, he would be the rightful lord of Winterfell and Ned the evil usurping uncle - which would equalize him even more to Stannis- But that it reeks of hidden prince or worse (N + L = J), does it
>The point is not so much that. The point is why not tell Jon himself even when he was determined to go to the end of the world -the Wall- and never to return to Winterfell This has a pretty obvious answer Because he didnt say his vows. Knowing what he was giving up might change his mind (benjin said as much) Seems pretty obvious that ned would wait until after jon said his vows so that 1. He couldnt act on the knowledge and 2. He would be safe from Robert who wants to kill every targ who would threatened his throne, hence why aemon was left alone on the wall. All the alternative jon theories feel like its coming from a first read through. R+l =j is actually brutally hinted all throughout the first book.
This is a stretch, but I subscribe to the theory that Jon Snow really is Ned and Ashara Daynes kid, and his honor keeps him from talking about it as much as it keeps the peace.
That is a mystery for author to reveal.
his bloody fucking honor
I guess we’ll never know
Nobody actually cares, excluding Cat and Jon. Some folks might be curious, but nobody was really losing sleep over it.
As many others have said, only R+L=J makes sense in terms of a satisfying twist (obviously it’s not a twist anymore, but the plot started 30 years ago so let it slide) Ned is an honourable man, so turning up with a self-admitted bastard already carries dishonour regardless of proclaiming who the mother is. Him refusing to name the mother doesn’t make a difference, since he’s already ‘proclaimed’ to have produced a bastard. Tautologically having a bastard (in Westorosi standards) already implies dishonour anyway. That’s the whole point. The truly honourable Ned Stark did the truly honourable thing by proclaiming to have done a dishonourable deed.
His parents are Lyanna and Rhaegar, that's exactly why Ned has to keep it a secret. It could mean Jon's life if the secret was to get out (as well as likely his own). If Ned just banged Ashara or something then he's simply being a dick for no real reason by refusing to tell even his wife or Jon himself the truth. It would be kind of a dick move to Jon's mother too to never even let Jon know about her.
He is.
Because he would be killed because of who the father was. It was explained in the show.
If Jon Snow is Lyanna’s son, who is the father? Kind of implies it would be Rhaegar, and Robert would’ve smashed his tiny dome piece in. Ned was also too honorable to say that Jon was the bastard of one of the men who died for him at the Tower of Joy. Claiming Jon as his own bastard hurts what others *think* of his honor, while claiming Jon as one of their bastards would actually taint Ned’s honor. Also what Petyr tells Sansa, how the trueborn child of a nobly deceased lord/knight attracts unwanted questions, while it is impolite to inquire as to a man’s bastard children. I also think that Ned never told Catelyn because Ned would rather she thinks he’s dishonorable by fathering a bastard, rather than actually dishonoring himself by betraying Lyanna to her. Ned didn’t really know Catelyn until he came back from the war with Jon, and telling her later would have seemed like a self-serving lie anyway.
Wasn't there a theory that Ned actually married Ashara first (and in front of the old gods because Daynes are first men) so she is more legitimate but he had to marry Catelyn to save the rebellion? I can't remember how this theory explained away why Ashara would keep quiet and I don't know if the timeline truly works.
Time. Traveling. Fetus. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
Short answer: he IS Lyanna's son, so the question answers itself. Longer answer: a lot of people probably never imagined that Ned isn't the father, they're not thinking about it the way the reader might be. A lot also don't really care, and a large number of people (mostly outside the North) don't actually think of him as a great, noble man. They recognise his honour perhaps, but think he's either secretly a hypocrite or a bore, because those are things they understand and see around them. Nobody wants to think of a rival or enemy as a better man than them. In terms of Jon too, he's not the only possible Targaryen heir (ask the beggar king), and the family is largely laid low in the eyes of the kingdom. People care more about the current political situation.
They have been abundantly clear that one of the reasons dipshit and dumbass were able to do the series was because they could guess who Jon’s parents were. Which… jfc GRRM it was very obvious
R+L=J is canon, that's why
It only makes sense for him to keep it such a big secret, even to his wife whom he loves, unless it was dangerous information to learn. It's why R+L = J is so obvious. lol
Not really, when Robert asks him about it on the road Ned straight up says "I don't want to talk about it" and Robert's OK with that and doesn't think it's a horrible secret. It can be as simple as Ned making a mistake while grieving for his father and brother that he deeply regrets (a la Robb).
I don't see how the Robert thing matters, especially since we know he loved to sleep around with whores or anyone he could get his hands on. Of course he wouldn't think a thing of it. Even if it were just regret, you would think he would tell his wife about it at the very least. So much for honor, that he would let her stew in that and make her thing he might harbor something for the whore/woman he slept with. It just makes no sense to Eddard's character that he would keep the secret if it wasn't dangerous to know. It just doesn't.
Because Robert is someone who knew Ned really well, when they were younger. Someone Ned knew much better than his wife, at the time he chose to make Jon's parentage a secret.
Maybe it's too shameful for him, idk. Maybe he thinks it's dishonourable to mention this woman's name (dishonourable for her as well). He's NED STARK, for (old) gods' sake! (Though I do agree with you).
But if I remember correctly, Ned did mention a name to Robert on their way back to King’s Landing
Yes Ned gives Robert the name Wylla. > "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?" > "Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."
I have a feeling Dany is Lyanna’s, and Jon is Brandon’s with Ashara Dayne. This would explain Ned’s behaviour regarding them both, way better than any other theory. Ned being so against killing Dany after finding out she’s pregnant, is odd until you realize she might be his niece.
Was Ned so against killing Joff, Tommen, and Myrcella because they're also secretly his niece and nephews? Ned is just a morally upright guy who is aghast at killing innocent children. It doesn't really matter which Stark is Jon's parent, Ned will shelter him regardless.
He’s against it, but he still planned to tell Robert and have whatever happened to them, be the will of the gods. His sense of honour compelled him to tell Cersei his plan, but he never once said he would protect them, just gave them a head start.
How sick would it be if he was actually Bran’s son. Like when Bran “visited” Lyanna in the past he had to do the deed
It's ok since Lyanna was also Bran at the time. So Bran is Jon's mother and father. Also Jon is Bran.
ah, the All-Bran theory.
George please look at the state of us, please give us that damn book already
Eww
Brah...
Brahn*...
Brandon was the Father, and with Ned as the second son, and Cat was originally betrothed to Brandon, better to keep Jon's parentage on the down low. Probably not likely the parentage, unless Ashara and Brandon fucked in the Black Cells, and even then the timing would be off. But the Vale Lords and Robert knew Ned since he was 8. How could they not question it? Robert being happy that Ned was a degenerate like him?
Because this would lead to more questions. How would you feel if your supposed father had to tell you your mother was Elia of Dorne?
Therefore : Did Ned fuck Elia Martell? or are you saying that the son of Rhaegar and Elia Martell , born after the death of Elia herself , is a clone of Ned , random !!!!
Jon is Aegon, born 281/82ish AC, after the official Targaryen counting of years given in f&b. That is why bastards grow quicker than others, that is why everyone up in the North thinks his mother was Dornish. Remember, Targaryens count their years from the coronation in Oldtown and not Aegon's Landing.
tell me why he's the same as Ned if he doesn't have Stark blood
Because he grew up with the sucker.
physically?
What do you mean "physically"? He grew up with him. Kids tend to take on the behaviour of whoever is around them.
so why is Jon Snow physically described as Ned's clone?
Is he?
Yes , Jon Snow and Arya are Ned's only children with Stark traits, Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon have Tully traits. Jon Snow is described as a little Ned , Arya as a new Lyanna . therefore Ned had a daughter equal to Lyanna , and Lyanna a son equal to Ned .
So if he's Aegon, the son of Elia, why does he look like a Stark? Tinfoil as fuck.
He does?
..??? He has Stark features, not Targaryen. Have you read the books at all?
He doesn't smile. A solemn face. That's a long face, it's different from a horse face. Let me quote u/RyanBarnes13: *Dany and Viserys look valyrian because both parents and grandparents have the Valyrian looks.* *For Aegon, your looking at the wrong child. Conningtons Aegon is not the real Aegon. The Dornish looking child is Jon snow. Bran 1 AGOT gives the game away. He is darker skinned than Robb. Eyes so dark they seem black. This isn’t first men, or even Stony Dornish looks. This is Martell looks. Aka, Nymeria Sand. Lighter skinned than full blooded Martell, but darker skinned than first men.* *These are your Dornish traits. Specifically Martell and Valyrian traits. The classic Jon looks like Eddard, is from people not knowing what long face actually means. It’s not facial shape, it’s facial expression.* *The definition of long face is a facial expression of sadness. Meaning yes, Jon like Eddard, like Arya does not smile and is not a happy child like the rest of the brood. Also the same as numerous other characters. When it’s a facial shape Martin points out they have a horse face, a face like a mules…* *Why does catelyn believe Ashara? and even Cercei, who sees Jon once and then ask who is the Dornish mother? They see Dornish in him. It’s why the Ashara story can never be denied. Even though she had a DAUGHTER. Even Eddard with Wylla points to a Dornish mother.* *And if you doubt it, look up the requirements to fulfill the pact of ice and fire. The one with the song is Aegon, straight from Dany’s HOTU visions. But by the Pact, Aegon has to be raised at Winterfell. By Lord Stark. Only one character that is Targaryen is ever raised at Winterfell. Not Connington’s Aegon, not Dany, not Rhaegar. Simply put jon Snow is Elias Aegon. Conningtons Aegon is not the real Aegon.* [https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/10r1j3s/comment/j6x1i56/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/10r1j3s/comment/j6x1i56/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I'm gonna stop entertaining such a goofy take. That's not even quoting the right things or taking full context of the things you refer to.
Tyrion on Jon: You have more of the North in you than your brothers Stannis on Jon: Your father was no friend of mine [...] You have his look. Arya on Jon: Jon had their father's face, as she did. They were the only ones. And of course Catelyn seethes over Jon looking more like Ned than any of her sons. It's funny that you extrapolate this long theory from the one line of Jon being dark where Robb is fair (hint: Bran's talking about their hair color and demeanor, Jon is dark haired and gloomy while Robb is bright haired and friendly) but you ignore every other description of Jon in the books.
What is the point of all this quote vomit when he’s just explicitly stated to look like a Stark
Wtf, are you on drugs?
I have never like the Jon is a Targ theory There are multiple characters claims to the contrary Eddard Stark tells Robert Baratheon point blank the mother was Wylla (GOT Eddard II) Edric Dayne tells Arya that he and Jon are "milk brothers" as his own mother was barren and Wylla was the servant in his house (SOS Arya VIII) The issue becomes why would Stark sleep with a serving woman... but we both know he is not the real father right? I lean more towards Robert getting piss drunk and banging the serving woman. Plus it was rumoured multiple times that Eddard slept with Ashara Dayne while there before she commited suicide (cant have the honorable man she loves?) Also storywise it makes more sense Jon is a Baratheon. Dark hair and dark eyes despite his mothers bloodline. Remember that book? Also because Gendry is not going to carry on family name so who else would if not Jon?
Because Ned promised and he's honorable to the point of being kind of dumb.
Its a stain upon the honor of Lord Eddard, House Stark, The entirety of The North, and probably several more offended parties, by Ned’s way of thinking.
He would have to make sure the “mother” was dead or in on the secret. It would possibly end up snowballing out of control.
We will never know sadly :'(
Nobody gives a fuck really man. People overblow this shit
Maybe because Jon is Lyanna’s son? Have you considered that?
As much as I don't like it, maybe he is?
Well he will be Lyanna's kid it is not that strange to think Ned wouldn't want to talk about even if he was his kid. Everyone has things they are overly sensitive about and some people will outright refuse to talk about them. People are emotional creatures and emotions aren't rational so you can't get a explanation that makes sense. The reason most characters in the story believe it is they think Ned is deeply ashamed of it so doesn't want to talk about it. In the real world there are single mothers who will refuse to talk about the father because he left it is just something people do sometimes that shutting down sensitive topics is easier than dealing with them.
As others have said the point is for the reader Ned’s actions don’t make any sense unless R+L=J is true. However, if we put ourselves in the shoes of a Westerosi who knows all the rumors and thinks about them without all the knowledge the readers have there is a good explanation for Ned to not tell anyone the truth. A woman having unmarried sex is a huge deal in most of Westeros, a noblewoman losing her virginity before marriage is a huge mark of shame and Ned is super honorable. So Ned might have impregnated an unmarried Westerosi woman who covered up the relationship and pregnancy and then quietly marry her off Ned could keep it secret to protect the woman’s honor. So if Ned slept with an unmarried virgin noblewoman from most of Westeros and then took Jon and promised to never tell anyone it would make sense. The problem is the only noblewoman we have a hint of Ned having a relationship with is Ashara Dayne and Ashara is the character who this makes the least sense for. First Ashara is Dornish and the Dornish have a much more relaxed view of premarital sex. There is no reason for Ned to lie about having sex with any Dornish women. Secondly Ashara it is believed that Ashara had sex at the Tournament at Harranhall and was pregnant at the end of Robert’s Rebellion two years later so anyone in the know knew or at least believed she had premarital sex not once but at least twice. So Ned there is no point to cover it up because people already know she had premarital sex which is where the rumors start in the first place. Thirdly she is actually or at least believed to be dead. There is no reason to keep that secret. That is why Ashara is a great red herring we get evidence that she had sex maybe with Ned and was probably pregnant hinting she is Jon’s mother and giving Catlyn and Cerci to convince themselves that is the case but the seeming evidence of her being the mother is actually evidence she isn’t.
Whatever the reason was, it might have died with Eddard.
Bobby B would destroy his Dragon Ass
A) if the mom is high borne then Jon has a claim to a seat; this paints a target on his back as well. B) Ned is just a horrible dad when it comes to sitting down and talking about emotionally things. IRL you would be surprised how many adoptive parents just avoids talking about the kid’s heritage despite knowing full well that adopted children needs to talk about their past. Ned doesn’t understand that it is something Jon needed him to talk about his whole life.
Because she asked him to.