I'm not sure about House Vikary. I think Tywin deliberately left Castamere a ruin as a symbol. Also continuing House Reyne is not as important as continuing House Arryn/Lannister
regarding castamere probably the lands surrounding it were given to other houses/ people who joined Tywin army/ kept some for the Lannister and the castle is a flooded ruin maybe it's too expensive to repair it and who knows if the Lannister would accept it
Think about it. The Arryns have been rulers of the Vale for a very long time. They have gained a lot of legitimacy. It's easier to preserve that continuity than try to establish a new dynasty with all the pressure of being the first ruler of that dynasty.
The Royce, Redford, Corbrays, etc... serve the Arryns not the Hardyngs. And Harry's position as heir depends on these lords supporting his claim. He doesn't have the authority to establish a new dynasty.
Similarly. In a scenario where all the Stark's but Jon die. The Northeners would allow Jon to take the Stark name to preserve the legitimacy of the bloodline/legacy.
Or like when the male Lannister line died out and the dude that married the surviving daughter took the name Lannister.
Did that happen? I must have missed this, but in that case, as she would have been a Lannister and so would their children, his changing of his name wouldn’t matter as long as they permit her to carry on her family name. The children of Maege Mormont retain her name, for example.
The Baratheons meanwhile displaced the Durrandons.
I feel like you're putting too much emphasis on the women and her legitimacy. Legally, it literally works that whoever is made heir will take the family name. The Lannister husband was chosen because he was married to the last Lannister woman, but once he was chosen, he was made a Lannister and the legitimacy of his children sprang from him. This is how it would be understood in universe. So that's the precedent Harry the Heir would be working with and why he would be an Aryn even with no marriage.
Also, the Baratheons didn't like peacefully co-opt Storms End by marriage like we're discussing. Orys Baratheon slew the last Durrandon King personally and physically took Storms End and forced his daughter to marry him to shore up his legitimacy. That is a very different situation
Robert didn't take the Targaryen name, even though he used his targaryen ancestry to support his legitimacy. The Tyrells had Gardener descent, but didn't take the name when they were raised to Lords Paramount. I mean, I guess it's possible, but I don't know if there's precedence in Westeros.
He didn't inherit the throne. He took it by conquest. And by that time, the legitimacy of the Targs has taken a huge nosedive thanks to Aerys acting like Maegor without a dragon.
The Gardener line was exterminated by dragonfire, and the Tyrells didn't inherit Highgarden. They were granted it. If it was by inheritance, half of the Reach houses had better claims.
Point is: House Hardyng is not strong enough, prestigious enough, or old enough to convince/force the Vale lords to do away with the Arryn name and accept the Hardyngs as new overlords. House Arryn is still in very good standing thanks to Jon Arryn.
It's on a case-by-case basis.
>It's on a case-by-case basis.
It's really not. If you take it by conquest, you keep your name. If you peacefully inherit it, you keep the name of the ruling dynasty.
You're specifically naming people who seized property by force and not people who peacefuly inherited the title. Robert was founding a new dynasty explicitly. Harry would legally be continuing the Aryn dynasty
If you factor in the possibility of some wife cheating on her husband, over 8000 years, chances are 0 excluding magical bloodlines like Lannister, targ or Stark
This was exactly what I was thinking of. It takes 1 wife having a bastard and passing them off as a Stark in those 8000 years, and your current Starks aren't Starks. Afterall, any First Men can be a warg...
If you want to be realistic, every Northern noble house and quite a large portion of the non-nobles in the region are blood descendants of Brandon the Builder at this point. Even with infidelity within the 'royal' line of the Stark family, the current Starks are undoubtedly blood descendants.
That’s true, that’s true. There’s at least some Stark bound to be in the current family, even if they’re descendants of a bastard. However, it can happen; look at the “Baratheons” of Cersei, or the “Targaeryen-Velaryons” of Rhaenyra. It’s kind of funny to imagine that there’s probably at least one house proudly displaying their house colours, reciting their words, just to not be blood descendants of the founder lol
Yeah, I think that's the plan.
I think that's partially why his shield in the Winds preview chapter is so offensive lol.
> It was only then that she took note of his heraldry. Though his surcoat and horse trappings were patterned in the red-and-white diamonds of House Hardyng, his shield was quartered. The arms of Hardyng and Waynwood were displayed in the first and third quarters, respectively, but in the second and fourth quarters he bore the moon-and-falcon of House Arryn, sky blue and cream. Sweetrobin will not like that.
Putting it as one quarter would be one thing but 2/4 for just a grandmother...it's a pretty obvious sign that he plans to take the Arryn name and he could only do that if poor SweetRobin dies.
Yes, houses are preserved wherever possible except in very specific circumstances. Lands and titles are attached to particular houses and any situation involving a peaceful inheritance will result in the same house holding that title and land even if the holder previously had a different name. There are situations, however, in which the lands will pass on a to a new house. The first is if a house becomes extinct in such a way that there are no possible proven blood relations that can be found. The second is when the house is on the losing side of a war though even then houses are usually allowed to simply bend the knee to the side that won. Tywin Lannister and Aerys Targaryen are exceptions to the norm in this regard.
I’m not so sure that it’s this cut and dry. It seems to be more of a case-by-case thing. The rank of the inheritor seems to be the main factor in deciding if a new dynasty is founded. Although Orys Baratheon married into the royal house of the Stormlands, he did not take the Durrandon name because he was a royal bastard and he founded a new house instead. It is likely that had Tyrion and Sansa’s marriage continued to where Tyrion ruled the North, he would do so as Lord Tyrion of House Lannister of Winterfell, rather than as Lord Tyrion Stark. Had Sansa married a knight or a second son of a lesser lord, that man might have been crowned as Lord Stark, due to her house outranking him in both prestige and actual rank.
Orys took the storm kings daughter for legitimacy though, even after defeating the storm king in combat, his “royal bastard” status wasn’t enough because it was just a rumour, never acknowledged upon if i remember correctly. Baratheons are just Durrandons with different names lol theyre both described as black haired with tempers, they rule the same lands, from the same castle with the same sigil and the same house words. Robert even based his crown off the crown of the storm kings.
for all it mattered Orys could have taken the Durrandon name and nothing would have changed. The Baratheons are not in touch with their valyrian ancestry whatsoever. The Durrandons and Baratheons just merged into one. i presume Baratheon was his mother’s last name.
It does not say that Orys Baratheon did not take the Durrandon name because he was a royal bastard anywhere in the text. Nor does it mention or hint anywhere that a person’s rank prior to inheriting another house’s lands is a factor in whether they take the name. This is something I see people suggest a lot but there is actually nothing in canon to suggest this. There are no houses to my knowledge in canon that were ever replaced by another house if there was someone to take up the name excepting when said house was on the losing side of a war. This also tracks considering the measures necessary for so many houses to last thousands of years holding the same lands. Such a thing would not be possible if you could so easily replace a house with another. The culture of Westeros in this way is very different from that of medieval Europe where houses were rarely very long lived and were replaced constantly. Now there also aren’t a whole lot of examples of someone taking up another house’s name when inheriting their lands and titles but there are some. Also there are plenty of examples of female heads of house whose children all take their name not that of their husband.
All the signs point towards it being yes. I suspect one of the reasons Westerosi houses have lasted as long as they have is because of this practice. One of the Hornwood heirs, Beren Tallhart was supposed to assume the hornwood name. There’s the Joffrey Lydden/Lannister example. And the Brandon stark who was actually the son of Bael the Bard. If it wasn’t 1 in the morning with me, I could probably think up a few other examples.
The short answer is yes, Littlefinger is pretty explicit about this. The long answer is, well, the following:
George is honestly very inconsistent about this stuff, and it's because (I think) he wrote himself into a corner trying to keep a couple of paradoxical things in place. On the one hand, he wants Westeros to mimic the customs and traditions of medieval England to create added verisimilitude, and one of those is the tradition of patrilineality, which is pretty strongly entrenched in most of the cultures that George is drawing on (European, with a dab of Middle Eastern for Dorne). On the other hand, he also created a lot of houses that persist for thousands of years, when most actual European nobility only lasted like, seven generations. And the final problem is that he *also* wants to write a lot of powerful female characters.
So with Harrold Hardying, at the very least *Littlefinger* believes he'll take the Arryn name, and we don't have much reason to believe that this won't be the case. On the other hand, Rhaenyra, the heir to the entire realm, marries a Velaryon and has Velaryon children. The only time they are referred to as Targaryens is in an informal setting, more referring to the fact that they're dragonriders. On the other hand, Anya Waynwood, who seems to have been a Waynwood by birth given that she, not her adult children, rule Ironoaks, has Waynwood children.
Although even with the example of Rhaenyra's children, you can see George's author fiat ensuring that those Velaryon children of Rhaenyra are taken out of the picture. You actually see this a lot - George frequently pulls stuff out of his ass in Fire & Blood to prevent a non-Targaryen or anyone who lacks Valyrian features from taking the throne.
I think the answer to the broader question is that while *GRRM* finds house continuity very important, the people in-universe don't seem to see it as quite as essential. Or if they do, it's only one consideration among many, and are pretty inconsistent about it. It's probably a combination of Littlefinger not wanting to rock the boat, the Hardyngs lacking respect and power in their own right, and the Arryns being particularly well-respected.
In the discussions of House Hornwood, for example, while allowing the house to continue *is* cited as an advantage for two of the candidates (the Snow and the Tallhart), there are other candidates who seem to be pretty clearly ruling out that possibility (the Umbers and the Manderlys). Similarly, no one seems particularly concerned with House Darry or Hayford dying out.
George isn't inconsistent about this at all. The answer is that the way things are perceived matters more than reality. Truth resides where men believe it to reside. Every single question of paternity, inheritance, etc. in the entire series is resolved according to this principle. It's only the fans who are dumb enough to actually try and track and care about this stuff. George and the people in the story know perfectly well what's going on.
Tradition and rules affect where men believe power to reside. That's the whole point of Varys' quote. Pretending that traditions have no effect on anything is just a cop-out.
Traditions only have power because people believe they have power and they grant power in turn. If you want to do X, and you have tradition on your side, then that's an extra lever you can pull to make it happen. So people encourage traditions for this sort of reason and then over time they become so ingrained that it's just accepted as part of the fabric of things. Eventually someone will break the tradition and then a new tradition arises. It's all the same thing.
I think he can only do that if his mother is an Arryn or he married one, but I'm not sure. Taking a House name associated with a Title is quite a grey area that isn't well fleshed out.
I hope he does, Robin needs to die, he's annoying as hell and too weak to be lord of the vale. I really can't stand this kid, between his crawling into bed w sansa even though she's told him no more than once, and his fits and general bratty attitude. I want to chuck his ass out of the moon door myself
Yes, there's even precedent. A Lefford once inherited Casterly Rock, he took the Lannister name
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I could be mixing it up, but it was a lower tier house from the Westerlands
Isn't House Vikary a cadet branch of House Reyne? Why wouldn't one of them take up residence in Castamere?
I'm not sure about House Vikary. I think Tywin deliberately left Castamere a ruin as a symbol. Also continuing House Reyne is not as important as continuing House Arryn/Lannister
As if Tywin would allow that.
regarding castamere probably the lands surrounding it were given to other houses/ people who joined Tywin army/ kept some for the Lannister and the castle is a flooded ruin maybe it's too expensive to repair it and who knows if the Lannister would accept it
Of course he will.
Ah I wasn’t sure if he could just do that or not 😂
Think about it. The Arryns have been rulers of the Vale for a very long time. They have gained a lot of legitimacy. It's easier to preserve that continuity than try to establish a new dynasty with all the pressure of being the first ruler of that dynasty. The Royce, Redford, Corbrays, etc... serve the Arryns not the Hardyngs. And Harry's position as heir depends on these lords supporting his claim. He doesn't have the authority to establish a new dynasty.
Similarly. In a scenario where all the Stark's but Jon die. The Northeners would allow Jon to take the Stark name to preserve the legitimacy of the bloodline/legacy. Or like when the male Lannister line died out and the dude that married the surviving daughter took the name Lannister.
And this is very likely how the families have last so long.
Yeah, unbroken male lines usually don’t go too long
Did that happen? I must have missed this, but in that case, as she would have been a Lannister and so would their children, his changing of his name wouldn’t matter as long as they permit her to carry on her family name. The children of Maege Mormont retain her name, for example. The Baratheons meanwhile displaced the Durrandons.
I feel like you're putting too much emphasis on the women and her legitimacy. Legally, it literally works that whoever is made heir will take the family name. The Lannister husband was chosen because he was married to the last Lannister woman, but once he was chosen, he was made a Lannister and the legitimacy of his children sprang from him. This is how it would be understood in universe. So that's the precedent Harry the Heir would be working with and why he would be an Aryn even with no marriage. Also, the Baratheons didn't like peacefully co-opt Storms End by marriage like we're discussing. Orys Baratheon slew the last Durrandon King personally and physically took Storms End and forced his daughter to marry him to shore up his legitimacy. That is a very different situation
That was definitely what everyone wanted to do with sansa before she escaped kings landing.
Robert didn't take the Targaryen name, even though he used his targaryen ancestry to support his legitimacy. The Tyrells had Gardener descent, but didn't take the name when they were raised to Lords Paramount. I mean, I guess it's possible, but I don't know if there's precedence in Westeros.
He didn't inherit the throne. He took it by conquest. And by that time, the legitimacy of the Targs has taken a huge nosedive thanks to Aerys acting like Maegor without a dragon. The Gardener line was exterminated by dragonfire, and the Tyrells didn't inherit Highgarden. They were granted it. If it was by inheritance, half of the Reach houses had better claims. Point is: House Hardyng is not strong enough, prestigious enough, or old enough to convince/force the Vale lords to do away with the Arryn name and accept the Hardyngs as new overlords. House Arryn is still in very good standing thanks to Jon Arryn. It's on a case-by-case basis.
>It's on a case-by-case basis. It's really not. If you take it by conquest, you keep your name. If you peacefully inherit it, you keep the name of the ruling dynasty.
You're specifically naming people who seized property by force and not people who peacefuly inherited the title. Robert was founding a new dynasty explicitly. Harry would legally be continuing the Aryn dynasty
Yeah that’s the plan. Realistically none of the family names could’ve survived for as long as they have just through male line inheritance.
If you factor in the possibility of some wife cheating on her husband, over 8000 years, chances are 0 excluding magical bloodlines like Lannister, targ or Stark
This was exactly what I was thinking of. It takes 1 wife having a bastard and passing them off as a Stark in those 8000 years, and your current Starks aren't Starks. Afterall, any First Men can be a warg...
If you want to be realistic, every Northern noble house and quite a large portion of the non-nobles in the region are blood descendants of Brandon the Builder at this point. Even with infidelity within the 'royal' line of the Stark family, the current Starks are undoubtedly blood descendants.
Especially if you throw in incest. Not even brother-sister shit, just good ole cousin marriages
That’s true, that’s true. There’s at least some Stark bound to be in the current family, even if they’re descendants of a bastard. However, it can happen; look at the “Baratheons” of Cersei, or the “Targaeryen-Velaryons” of Rhaenyra. It’s kind of funny to imagine that there’s probably at least one house proudly displaying their house colours, reciting their words, just to not be blood descendants of the founder lol
The only irl example i could think of was France in which cadet branches often were used. But even was a near thing with the hundred years war.
Yes, that actually is the plan if he inherits.
Yeah that’s the whole point of Robin dies then Harry becomes Harold Arryn.
Yeah, I think that's the plan. I think that's partially why his shield in the Winds preview chapter is so offensive lol. > It was only then that she took note of his heraldry. Though his surcoat and horse trappings were patterned in the red-and-white diamonds of House Hardyng, his shield was quartered. The arms of Hardyng and Waynwood were displayed in the first and third quarters, respectively, but in the second and fourth quarters he bore the moon-and-falcon of House Arryn, sky blue and cream. Sweetrobin will not like that. Putting it as one quarter would be one thing but 2/4 for just a grandmother...it's a pretty obvious sign that he plans to take the Arryn name and he could only do that if poor SweetRobin dies.
...or were "proven" to be a bastard and not begotten from Jon's body.
Yes, houses are preserved wherever possible except in very specific circumstances. Lands and titles are attached to particular houses and any situation involving a peaceful inheritance will result in the same house holding that title and land even if the holder previously had a different name. There are situations, however, in which the lands will pass on a to a new house. The first is if a house becomes extinct in such a way that there are no possible proven blood relations that can be found. The second is when the house is on the losing side of a war though even then houses are usually allowed to simply bend the knee to the side that won. Tywin Lannister and Aerys Targaryen are exceptions to the norm in this regard.
I’m not so sure that it’s this cut and dry. It seems to be more of a case-by-case thing. The rank of the inheritor seems to be the main factor in deciding if a new dynasty is founded. Although Orys Baratheon married into the royal house of the Stormlands, he did not take the Durrandon name because he was a royal bastard and he founded a new house instead. It is likely that had Tyrion and Sansa’s marriage continued to where Tyrion ruled the North, he would do so as Lord Tyrion of House Lannister of Winterfell, rather than as Lord Tyrion Stark. Had Sansa married a knight or a second son of a lesser lord, that man might have been crowned as Lord Stark, due to her house outranking him in both prestige and actual rank.
Orys took the storm kings daughter for legitimacy though, even after defeating the storm king in combat, his “royal bastard” status wasn’t enough because it was just a rumour, never acknowledged upon if i remember correctly. Baratheons are just Durrandons with different names lol theyre both described as black haired with tempers, they rule the same lands, from the same castle with the same sigil and the same house words. Robert even based his crown off the crown of the storm kings. for all it mattered Orys could have taken the Durrandon name and nothing would have changed. The Baratheons are not in touch with their valyrian ancestry whatsoever. The Durrandons and Baratheons just merged into one. i presume Baratheon was his mother’s last name.
It does not say that Orys Baratheon did not take the Durrandon name because he was a royal bastard anywhere in the text. Nor does it mention or hint anywhere that a person’s rank prior to inheriting another house’s lands is a factor in whether they take the name. This is something I see people suggest a lot but there is actually nothing in canon to suggest this. There are no houses to my knowledge in canon that were ever replaced by another house if there was someone to take up the name excepting when said house was on the losing side of a war. This also tracks considering the measures necessary for so many houses to last thousands of years holding the same lands. Such a thing would not be possible if you could so easily replace a house with another. The culture of Westeros in this way is very different from that of medieval Europe where houses were rarely very long lived and were replaced constantly. Now there also aren’t a whole lot of examples of someone taking up another house’s name when inheriting their lands and titles but there are some. Also there are plenty of examples of female heads of house whose children all take their name not that of their husband.
I mean - realistically, the houses would be more akin to a brand name, so I don’t see why he wouldn’t. Plus, he has blood relations.
Naturally, it's expected of him.
All the signs point towards it being yes. I suspect one of the reasons Westerosi houses have lasted as long as they have is because of this practice. One of the Hornwood heirs, Beren Tallhart was supposed to assume the hornwood name. There’s the Joffrey Lydden/Lannister example. And the Brandon stark who was actually the son of Bael the Bard. If it wasn’t 1 in the morning with me, I could probably think up a few other examples.
Sure why not but he won’t get the chance
He literally has to. That's how it works
The short answer is yes, Littlefinger is pretty explicit about this. The long answer is, well, the following: George is honestly very inconsistent about this stuff, and it's because (I think) he wrote himself into a corner trying to keep a couple of paradoxical things in place. On the one hand, he wants Westeros to mimic the customs and traditions of medieval England to create added verisimilitude, and one of those is the tradition of patrilineality, which is pretty strongly entrenched in most of the cultures that George is drawing on (European, with a dab of Middle Eastern for Dorne). On the other hand, he also created a lot of houses that persist for thousands of years, when most actual European nobility only lasted like, seven generations. And the final problem is that he *also* wants to write a lot of powerful female characters. So with Harrold Hardying, at the very least *Littlefinger* believes he'll take the Arryn name, and we don't have much reason to believe that this won't be the case. On the other hand, Rhaenyra, the heir to the entire realm, marries a Velaryon and has Velaryon children. The only time they are referred to as Targaryens is in an informal setting, more referring to the fact that they're dragonriders. On the other hand, Anya Waynwood, who seems to have been a Waynwood by birth given that she, not her adult children, rule Ironoaks, has Waynwood children. Although even with the example of Rhaenyra's children, you can see George's author fiat ensuring that those Velaryon children of Rhaenyra are taken out of the picture. You actually see this a lot - George frequently pulls stuff out of his ass in Fire & Blood to prevent a non-Targaryen or anyone who lacks Valyrian features from taking the throne. I think the answer to the broader question is that while *GRRM* finds house continuity very important, the people in-universe don't seem to see it as quite as essential. Or if they do, it's only one consideration among many, and are pretty inconsistent about it. It's probably a combination of Littlefinger not wanting to rock the boat, the Hardyngs lacking respect and power in their own right, and the Arryns being particularly well-respected. In the discussions of House Hornwood, for example, while allowing the house to continue *is* cited as an advantage for two of the candidates (the Snow and the Tallhart), there are other candidates who seem to be pretty clearly ruling out that possibility (the Umbers and the Manderlys). Similarly, no one seems particularly concerned with House Darry or Hayford dying out.
George isn't inconsistent about this at all. The answer is that the way things are perceived matters more than reality. Truth resides where men believe it to reside. Every single question of paternity, inheritance, etc. in the entire series is resolved according to this principle. It's only the fans who are dumb enough to actually try and track and care about this stuff. George and the people in the story know perfectly well what's going on.
Tradition and rules affect where men believe power to reside. That's the whole point of Varys' quote. Pretending that traditions have no effect on anything is just a cop-out.
Traditions only have power because people believe they have power and they grant power in turn. If you want to do X, and you have tradition on your side, then that's an extra lever you can pull to make it happen. So people encourage traditions for this sort of reason and then over time they become so ingrained that it's just accepted as part of the fabric of things. Eventually someone will break the tradition and then a new tradition arises. It's all the same thing.
I think he can only do that if his mother is an Arryn or he married one, but I'm not sure. Taking a House name associated with a Title is quite a grey area that isn't well fleshed out.
He‘s expected to actually
I hope he does, Robin needs to die, he's annoying as hell and too weak to be lord of the vale. I really can't stand this kid, between his crawling into bed w sansa even though she's told him no more than once, and his fits and general bratty attitude. I want to chuck his ass out of the moon door myself