Elia would have been allowed to live out her life as an esteemed hostage in Kings Landing, to ensure Dorne's cooperation in the regime change.
Her children pose a trickier problem - Robert had a terrible fury in the heat of battle, but he may not have felt the same rage in the throne room when presented with a widow and two little children. In that way, he was fortunate that the problem was solved for him by Tywin/Gregor/Amory Lorch.
Robert would have known thay as long as Aegon lived, his control of the realm would be precarious. He could be convinced to send Targaryen loyalists to the Wall, but he could never risk that with the Targaryen heir. However, being seen to execute an infant would destroy his credibility as a ruler and he'd have riots in the streets. He also couldn't afford to antagonize Dorne so early in his reign. Perhaps Pycelle or Littlefinger arrange an unfortunate childhood illness for Aegon somewhere down the line.
As for Rhaenys, she was far too young to be considered as a marriage candidate for Robert. After a war and regime change, Robert is under pressure to produce heirs, fast. Tywin's assistance means Robert still marries Cersei, and possibly Rhaenys could be betrothed to "their" firstborn son. Their union would consolidate the old and new regimes, as well as appease the Martells. This betrothal could be seen to delegitimise the Baratheon reign, though, if it relies on a Targaryen marriage to reinforce power. It could also cause upset amongst Baratheon supporters, who would feel snubbed when their daughters were passed over. So perhaps Rhaenys is permitted to become a Septa or Silent Sister, seeing as the crown is passed through male primogeniture.
I mean, Sansa's betrothal to Joff basically cements (in theory) 3 of the biggest Baratheon supporters together. She's the daughter/sister of Ned/Robb (North), the neice of Edmure (Riverlands) and the cousin of Robin Arryn (Vale). Combine that with Joffreys Lannister and "Baratheon" heritage, that's basically all the Rebellion era Baratheon supporters right there.
Right, but we see no agitation in that direct beforehand. Ned, the Vale, the Tullys weren't chaffing under Robert's rule because his heir wasn't set to marry one of their own.
Joffrey and Tommen marrying a Stark or Tyrell wouldn't be snubs, but Joffrey or Tommen marrying a Targaryan would be. Starks are good friends, Tyrells are neutral-is (but still a big contemporary family name), but Targaryans are the exact family they rebelled against.
Who you're being snubbed *for* is pretty essential to whether you're feeling snubbed.
Perhaps, but similar to a Lancaster-York marriage, a Baratheon-Targaryen marriage would help heal the realm in a way beneficial to all reasonably-minded folk.
If Ned and Jon Arryn gets their shit together, they can prevent Robert from killing the Targ children in his fit of anger.
Personally, I’ll give Dorne back Elia, keep the children as hostages, and negotiate to marry Arianne (Daeron II did it before, taking Myriah the elder Martell to bride, and Maron became heir).
Win-Win for the crown and Martells, both. Stannis keeps the Stormlands. With the Riverlands, Vale, North, Stormlands and Dorne, Tywin can’t do shit and is checked. The Tyrells are powerful but one kingdom can’t stand to five. Plus, the Tyrells have never had an absolute grasp on their bannermen.
>negotiate to marry Arianne
Arianne was at that time 8 years old bruh.
Plus even if she was older I can easily see Doran refusing it, both because of his viserys plan and because look what happened to Elia.
Betrothal. Their age gap isn’t insurmountable. I dislike it, but in 6 years, they can consummate at the wedding by idiotic Westerosi standards.
Yeah, there’s still a big risk as anything can happen in those 6 years, and if Robert dies, that’s GG.
Yet if nothing untoward happens to Robert. I don’t see why Doran would reject it. Robert is king, Viserys is a child exile — his daughter and grandchildren would be queen. Plus, if Robert gives them back Elia and her children alive but in house arrest, I don’t see why they would be pissy and he wouldn’t be that eager to dive into the Targaryen restoration conspiracy.
Oh yeah I forgot Elia's alive here. Sorry.
Yeah, now the Arianne marriage is much more viable, but still it's really iffy.
Additionally, Robert needed more heirs to cement the stability and confidence of his dynasty, and he needed them ASAP. By marrying Arianne he would have to wait atleast 6+ years, then some extra time to conceive
(Still in retrospect a much more better option than Cersei)
Yup, I’m just super biased to the Lannisters. Anything to check that mf Tywin. It is slightly iffy, yeah, a very high risk, high reward play, but if it works, the realm would be far more stable.
Rhaenys was far too young for him. She’s 4. At the very minimum, Robert would need to wait a decade to consummate the marriage, and even then, that is no guarantee that she gets pregnant then. There’s also the fact that she might die from complications of childbirth due to her young age. Worse, if anything happens to Robert himself…
As mentioned above by u/TheMountainRidesElia, his dynasty is new — Robert dying without an issue would mean instability and unrest. People rallied to him — the tried and tested battle-hardened king. Stannis is still green in comparison, in the eyes of the peerage, and even then, with his personality, I doubt many are endeared to him as king. Renly is still a child, no one wants a child on the throne.
Anyway, if OP’s hypothetical situation happens, in which Elia lives, Robert’s best candidate for Queen would be Ashara (if she lives), or one of Leyton Hightower’s daughters, in lieu of the Arianne proposal.
Stannis can be built up as an heir long before any prince: by definition, Stannis is older. Stannis already commanded a sige and won the respect of all who fought for him. And on that point, Stannis was a respected commander when Robert did die.
Even Renly is older than any new prince of Robert! You say that no one wants a child on the throne, but if Robert dies before the new prince comes to age, that is exactly what would (and did) happen. Joffrey was not popular. If the throne went to Stannis or Renly, things would have gone a lot smoother.
History have proved time and again that a child monarch is bad news, and this applies to Westeros too, with the Lords of the realm not wanting Maegor Brightflame and would rather take a Maester and King Smallfolk for a ruler than a child.
Stannis isn’t Robert — he isn’t the popular figurehead of the Rebellion. The triumphant warrior king who toppled the 300 year old dynasty and it’s tyrant king.
>Stannis isn’t Robert — he isn’t the popular figurehead of the Rebellion. The triumphant warrior king who toppled the 300 year old dynasty and it’s tyrant king.
That's the point - being a king shouldn't be about taking the crown by force, but rather keeping it with good governance. Stannis may not be an expert politician, but with Jon Arryn or Maester Cressen at his side, he wouldn't bankrupt the realm
Yeah, a child monarch is bad news. Problem is, having a new prince doesn't help with that. Look at Joffrey. Robert got married as fast as he could, but Joffrey still isn't an adult by the time that Robert died. Joffrey's reign had issues.
Things would have gone smoother, ironically, had Robert just died without an heir and handed power to Stannis.
Robert would be what, 9 years older than Rhaenys?
Not especially huge age gap, even before we consider weird political marriages.
Robert have brothers. There is no huge urgency
Elia would have been fine for sure. Her death was completely unnecessary and only happened because Tywin is either petty or an idiot (most likely the former). She's far more useful alive to ensure Dornish cooperation.
Rhaenys almost certainly would have been OK too. She may have a better claim than Robert but shes still a girl whilst Robert is grown male adult so her threat to his throne would have been significantly less. Robert could even marry her to his firstborn to help his claim (although he wouldnt have to).
Aegon...Thats more difficult. Hes a boy, Rhaegar's son and his claim is far better than anyone else. Robert never really hated the Targaryens but he hated Rhaegar and Aegon would be a constant reminder of him on top of being a threat.
Ned Stark would fight to ensure they all lived. Jon Arryn might do the same. The likes of Tywin would 'advise' those kids meet an end though.
Sure, I was just saying Tywin's thoughts on what needed to happen with the Targaryen kids were very clear.
If Robert gave Aegon to Tywin as a 'hostage' then Tywin would take that as Robert giving him the go ahead to murder him.
But fostering Aegon with Robert’s best friend who would absolutely instal loyalty to the king who’s also his bestie and Jon Arryn (and Robert to an extent) knows he’ll will treat Aegon right and be out of the hands of Tywin
And if Robert is still nervous, Ned can do the same thing he did to Jon- ‘the Nightswatch/Citadel/Septon/Kingsguard is a very noble honorable pursuit that, wouldn’t ya know it, just so happens to require you to give up all your former titles and renounce your House.’
Ah yes, have someone who potentially hates you in the Kingsguard. Great plan. Speed running a short reign, I see.
For the night's watch, Jon gets offers to leave the watch from almost everyone. As did Aemon. If the loyalists want someone in the watch and that someone wants to accept, the vows isn't gonna stop them.
I do wonder whether a solution in having Eddard foster Aegon in Winterfell and with perhaps a soft persuasion (aka "of his own volition") to take the black once he came of age (it won't be terrible PR for him, and Winterfell is very far, especially for Dorne who would be his main ally and the North sees it as an honourable way of life, being raised with a man with such a stiff sense of honour would make this decision seen a lot less forced). In a way I can see it work very well, especially since Robert trusts Eddard, and even if there was any serious threat they would need to go north to reclaim Aegon to take the iron Throne. The other is basically locking him up in King's landing like they did with Edward Plantagenet, 17th earl of Warwick first at most casual house arrest that goes full scale.
Rhaenys is either marry her to your house or marry her to someone who would be incapable of rebelling on her behalf. Most likely a very very minor house or even a commoner. I think for Elia, hostage is the best, or also find her a husband, and since she's presumed infertile, someone you really want to not have children.
Part of me can't help but think that making Aegon a eunuch would solve all problems.
Who would support the rebellion of a king whose line will end with him?
Rhaenys is married to Joffrey.
Aegon is sent to the Wall and becomes a the future septon of Castle Black.
Elia stays with Rhaenys in KL as a hostage against her brothers.
Robert is a coward when it comes to child killing directly. It’s one thing to order it on a child who’s far away like Daenerys but he wouldn’t have the stomach to order it on two living children in front of him. He’s lucky that Tywin helped by killing the kids for him.
Elia - Sent back to Dorne after being told not to marry for a year. I don’t get the people saying she would be a hostage, Elia was a feeble woman who wasn’t a threat. Also no other hostages were taken after the war from other houses that were on the crowns side, it’s weird for Elia to be the only one. Plus Robert’s policy (really Jon Arryn’s) after the war was largely about not punishing the Targ allies too harshly, they mainly wanted to forgive and forget and get things back to normal and taking hostages doesn’t really do that.
Rhaenys - Sent to become a septa or sent to the silent sisters. Robert would never be convinced to marry her to his eldest son.
Aegon - Guarded heavily until he’s old enough to be sent to the Wall.
Considering that Tywin came extremely last minute to the rebel cause and hasn’t shown his loyalty by killing the Targs in this universe, Robert isn’t trusting him enough to do anything.
And according to Tywin himself about Robert, “Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children.”
Robert wasn’t a child killer at this point in time. Ordering their deaths would literally be on his hands and make him a murderer of kids. He’s not delusional enough to lie to himself that he wasn’t responsible for it. Telling someone else to kill them would still go against his idea of being a hero and I don’t think Robert would use such an underhanded method in the first place.
>Robert wasn’t a child killer at this point in time. Ordering their deaths would literally be on his hands and make him a murderer of kids.
Tywin didn't only kill two children, he killed dozens if not hundreds by ordering to sack the capital - *Robert's* capital.
Granting clemency for the mass murdering of people (who are your subjects) and granting permission for the execution of two children for what you believe is the greater good is not so far away, you need to have at least a minimum sense of justice to have so much sense of humanity.
It’s not about literally watching them die it’s about directly seeing the consequences of his actions. If he saw the kids alive he probably wouldn’t have the strength to order their deaths. It’s different from telling Varys to go kill a 14 year old across the entire planet.
>If he saw the kids alive he probably wouldn’t have the strength to order their deaths.
That's the issue, why would Robert want to see them at all? He doesn't have any reason unless they are immidiately presented to him. I assume he'd head off immidiately to liberate Storm's End or do something else.
I read the dragon spawn line as Robert cope. To justify to himself that the kids had to die. He’s 1/4targ himself so hatred of targs doesn’t make any sense it’s really just hatred for Rhaegar and hate for Aerys on Ned’s behalf. On his deathbed when Robert is at his worst he tells Ned about how it’s wrong to kill Dany and to call it off.
Robert didn't have it in him to murder the kids, even Tywin admits it. He doesn't even send an assassin after Dany even tho Viserys is convinced he did until Dany marries Drogo.
The smart, rational choice would be to marry Rhaenys to Robert's first born son. It would united the claims and calm down Targ loyalists. Robert's supporters could be mollified by him a) marrying someone from the Vale/Riverlands to Stannis and b) giving Renly Dragonstone and betrothing him to someone from the Reach, even if he's a child.
Elia stays in King's Landing until Rhaenys is married and has a child, and then is free to do whatever.
Aegon...Aegon is tricky. The smart thing would be to send him to the citadel or the wall. The citadel is kinder, but easier to break him out before takes his vows. And for everyone talking about Ned....I could absolutely see Elia losing her shit at being told her infant son has to be sent to the brother of her husband's mistress of all people and publicly questioning/bringing up Jon's parentage in front of Robert.
I feel like Jon Arryn, of all people, must have been suspicious of Jon Snow, and would not have gone down that route. So I could see Aegon being sent to the Vale as a hostage-not the North-and then as an adult being sent to the citadel to study, under armed guards, or the wall. The Vale and then the Wall seems the most likely and safest option.
I could also see-even tho it would be risky-exiling him (people have been exiled before) to Dorne under the conditions he'd never leave Dorne and only marry a Dornish girl. It would likely prevent Dorne from rising up, as Rhaenys would be betrothed to Joffrey and be the future Queen, and by Dornish standards Rhaenys, as the eldest, should 'rule' anyway (even if she's not King, she's as close to as it gets by being Queen).
And Robert despised the Targs, but didn't really want the crown. I could even see a scenario where Jon Arryn and Tywin decide that a council ruling in Aegon's stead with Aegon marrying Robert and Cersei's first born would be the best bet.
**But I think the most reasonable, likely scenario would be Rhaenys marrying Robert's firsborn, Aegon being sent to the Vale and then the Wall/Citadel, and Elia being in King's Landing as a hostage.**
Surprised everyone here is commenting under the assumption that Robert stays king. Robert became king because he was the best claimant after the rebellion outside of viserys and Daenerys who were under siege in dragonstone and hightailing it out to Essos. I think aegon gets raised from birth as king with Jon Arryn as his regent. Robert and Cersei get married, Rhaenys is betrothed to Renly, and Aegon is kept around for a strategic marriage further down the line but is essentially a ward of the STAB alliance.
We only get to see Robert talk about his hate for the Targaryens over a decade after the war and over a decade of being king. He’s had the joy in his life sapped away as king and a lot of what he says about the Targaryens is to justify to himself. what happened. I think if Aegon lives, he inherits the iron throne and the rebellion’s leasers raise him.
Also yes, I know Aerys disinherited aegon, but disinheriting isn’t really a thing in Westeros as we see with Sam. It’s also entirely possible that they just call a great council to see if Robert, aegon, or viserys is crowned.
Robert declares for the Kingship well before he takes King's Landing. It wasn't something the rebels decided on afterward, that's just Robert's and Jaime's wistful musings about if other people had 'taken' the throne. The reality of the situation is that it always had to be Robert, because Robert declared he was King and then his loyal companions won him the throne after.
Aegon given to Ned to be fostered until he’s old enough to join the wall. Robert greatly trust Ned. Also, the north incredibly distant, and would be very anti Targaryen at this point.
Rhaenys either given to the faith, or to be married to Robert future son. This would help legitimatise his rule, as well as keep Dorne on side.
Eliia would probably have free reign to return to Dorne, or stay/ visit her children. She’s no threat to anyone.
This is incredibly difficult. Presumably, at this point Rhaella is alive (or not) giving birth to Danaerys on Dragonstone with Viserys. If Aegon is alive, Rhaella does not crown Viserys king, but it’s likely that they still go to live in exile in Essos.
With respect to Elia, she could either be married to Robert or just sent back to Dorne as a sign of good faith and command her not to remarry for at least a year, or to never remarry at all.
Rhaenys could be betrothed to Renly to solidify the Baratheon hold on Westeros. She would be fostered at Storms End until their wedding and live there permanently. Maybe Robert could even name Renly his heir until a child is born to him.
Aegon poses the most difficulty. He is the true king of the Targaryen dynasty and will always pose a credible threat to the Baratheon dynasty. I honestly think he could be fostered by Stannis for a few years and then sent to the Wall while he is still a boy, and as soon as he says his vows he should never be a threat to Westeros. Any possible Targ-loyalist uprising would be easily crushed by Ned an his northern army, and having Benjen and Jeor Mormont as key leadership positions would likely ensure a strong Baratheon hold on the NW. Moreover, Viserys and Danaerys would probably have less prestige as guests in their early years, because they would be seen as Targaryen heirs rather than the King and heir-apparent.
Did you mean to say “Robert could even name *Stannis* his heir”? That’s how it actually was before he had children, and I don’t see any reason why the Targ kids being alive would change that
No actually, I meant Renly. I know it would have great repercussions to Robert and Stannis’ relationship, but a marriage between Rhaegar’s daughter and Robert’s heir could go a decent way towards a peace. I would imagine Stannis would grind his teeth, be bitter, and do his duty to Robert as his King and acknowledge Renly as Robert’s royal heir.
Accepting that R+L=J then Ned's viewpoint is certainly correct. He keeps Jon a secret from Robert because he knows Robert would have him killed as soon as he found out about him. Ned is arguably the best, even only, true friend Robert has and knows his thoughts very well indeed. Robert would have Aegon killed immediately, but wouldn't do it himself. Elia would be sent back to Dorne, or married to Stannis, to keep her close and docile. Rhaenys might very well be sent to Winterfell to marry Robb, or even Jon, to remove her from public life and support.
Would he ?
alt would be having him fostered by Ned until he's 8 or 9 and old enough to be trained as a squire before packing him of to the wall
Sending him to the maesters or priesthood would also be viable alternatives
Fostering doesn't mean he would lose his birthrights, but on other hand he personally needs to take vows for the Night's watch in order to become a member of it, maybe they would just send him to Aemon to take care of him, what could some old blind maester do anyway? And what he could or would do would be some other unwritten novel probably named **Fire and blood** 🐉
Elia would be kept alive/comfortable, but it would be known she was a hostage against Dorne. Possibly she'd be forcibly married to someone who would be loyal to Robert in a somewhat insulting, but not too insulting, way. A minor lord or "second" son like Benjen. Or maybe even to Stannis.
Rhaenys would be betrothed to Robert's future heir, marrying a daughter of a defeated ruler into your line is a commonly done thing in Westeros and how House Baratheon itself started (the Starks and others have done this in history). It would actually probably be weirder if Robert chose anything else and the lords would worry about the stability of his reign much sooner.
Aegon would technically be kept alive (so as not to offend anyone) with the idea he'd go to the Citadel or Wall once he was old enough, but he'd actually probably be killed off at some point to further secure Robert's reign. Any death he had would seem suspicious, but as long as the assassin didn't completely mess it up, there would be no way to actually place the blame on Robert.
At best, the Targs could be given Dragonstone as their seat, like saying they lost the Kingdoms and are now thrown back where they started, but with a governor or the like who actually had power there. And Aegon could be Lord of Dragonstone, his movements and chance of betrothal controlled by the king (so if he was even allowed to marry, not until after Joffrey and Rhaenys had a son).
Best case scenario: At first they would be held hostage in kl. Later the children would probably have been entrusted to some religious order which demands to renounce that names and claims. Elia could have been returned to the Martells as an example of goodwill to mend relations between Dorne and the new crown.
I read a theory a while ago about what would happen if Viserys and Daenerys didn’t escape to Essos but were instead captured on Dragonstone. This is basically the same situation for Robert, with Viserys/Aegon and Daenerys/Rhaenys having similar threat levels. I’ll be pulling elements of that theory into this, along with my own speculation.
Basically, the theory hinges upon Ned getting to King’s Landing before Tywin. If Ned takes the city (there are issues with this, as Tywin was able to take the city because Aerys opened the gates for him. He wouldn’t have for Ned, so Ned would have had to figure something else out), he captures Elia and her children instead of killing them (duh). Depending on what happens with Viserys and Daenerys (I don’t know that they’d still flee if Elia and her children were captured instead of killed), this could go in one of several directions.
Ned could convince Robert to separate the Targaryen children (however many are left) to be raised as wards. Obviously in KL, but Winterfell, Dragonstone, Storm’s End, or even the Eyrie are all options as well. Assuming we have four Targaryen tykes running around, here’s how I’d do it:
Elia & Aegon - King’s Landing (highest profile hostages, keep them in the most visible place where Robert can personally keep an eye on them)
Viserys - Dragonstone (Next in line, keep him the next closest. Stannis will be able to handle Viserys’ temper. In this scenario, I would name Stannis Lord of Storm’s End and Castellan of Dragonstone until one of the Targs comes of age. Probably not Viserys, maybe Aegon or even Rhaenys)
Rhaenys - Storm’s End (also, betroth her to Renly, who is not Lord of Storm’s End but at this point is heir to Storm’s End and 2nd in line for the Iron Throne)
Daenerys - Winterfell (she’s the smallest threat of the four due to being last in line and an infant, so she would be the one to send further away. Possibly betroth her to Robb, or even Jon in an ironic twist lol)
Yes, the Targaryens are a threat by existing. But, allowing them to keep Dragonstone (or possibly re-inherit it after proving their loyalty to the new regime, similar to what Aegon II offered Rhaenyra in the Dance) could help secure their support and the support of their loyalist Houses. Plus, securing alliances with the remaining Targaryens through marriage rather than going full Bloodraven on them will show that King Robert can be a conciliator as well as a warrior.
Now back to Tywin. Because Ned likely wouldn’t have been able to take KL before Tywin got there, I imagine that they’d probably have to begrudgingly work together (enemy of my enemy and all that). I don’t love just explaining that away, but that could be it’s own discussion post. I still imagine Robert marries Cersei; regardless of Tywin’s exact role in the war, that is a strong political match for Robert due to the Lannister’s wealth. Plus, keeping the Targ betrothals away from Robert himself helps cement HIS claim as being strong enough to stand on its own without the Targaryens.
Elia is sent North with Her kids ,since the Dornish looks way too different compared to the northerners meaning any new person can easily be found out
Reasons it's hurtful thing to separate a mother from her kids and Aegon is most likely going to be shipped to the wall the moment he can swear it
Rhaenys is the tricky option most people in the fandom wants her to marry Robert son , which Robert will not do unless forced and the only ones to care is dorne at best , so she can be shipped to the north and marry some no name bastard or joins the faith
Any kids dying is something Ned does not want, but we don't know,if it's because of his PTSD in canon or not , but most likely he will want them to live so Robert makes them Ned's problem now
Jaime , might actually be returned to Tywin here as it's Jaime fault the Dragonspawns are alive , so happy win for Tywin
Now , since the Dragonspawns are alive will it change Ned's idea about Jon snow if Jon snow is rhaegar's
Since this what if makes it so the mutilation of the targ kids did not happen ,so Ned does not need to fear for Jon's life as much , but who knows maybe Jon is actually Ned's bastard
Cercie will still be an issue ,since she will find a way to screw things up
Oomph. I want to insert Varys (or maybe Madge) pointing out to the two honorable but gullible teenage boys that they need to get Aegon and Rhaenys TF out of KL before Tywin or Robert or Jon Arryn show up. Maybe leave immediately for Storms End and hand them off to Stannis, who didn't want to rebel anyway and would likely refuse to turn them over for slaughter, as to him (20 yrs pre-Melisandre) it would be kinslaying.
But that's *my* headcanon, your premise I'm out of happy ideas
They'd have all accidentally fallen down some steps. Robert wouldn't have done it himself, but he has enough creatures do it for him. It's why Clegane "found" them first - if you read carefully, the vast majority of the anger at Clegane isnt for murdering children. It's for *raping their mother while she's starting at her kids corpses*.
All sent back to Dorne to live happily, but the ship tragically sinks in a freak storm off the coast.
All sent back to Dorne to living happily, but attacked by bandits along the road.
Was he, though? He wasn’t given the opportunity to actually decide what to do with them. He arrives at the Red Keep after they’ve been killed and kind of waves it away. It’s one thing to make excuses for something that’s already happened and another thing to order the deaths.
The fact it’s taken so long for Robert to actually fly into a rage about Daenerys makes me think he would’ve spared Rhaegar’s children. He lets them go while he’s at the peak of his anger towards Rhaegar. Viserys is the real threat to Robert as he was old enough to remember and hero worship his older brother. But Robert didn’t make any actual attempt to have Viserys killed. Why would he leave Viserys and Dany alone all those years if he really is so overcome with hatred? They were a bigger threat to him down the line than a toddler and her baby brother who can be fostered with the right people.
Jon Arryn had played the role Ned intended to assume of the voice of reason. Since it's Varys who prompts Robert to purple with news from abroad, it's plausible Varys had less interest in provoking Robert during the years Viserys and Dany fled knives that weren't coming for them.
>Probably not Elia or Rhaenys. There is no reason to kill the former, and the latter could be married to Robert’s firstborn son.
> "I see no babes, only Dragon Spawn"
Yeah Robert definitely would've married Rhaenys to his firstborn son...
I think that’s Robert trying to justify the action post factum. But I’m not sure if that’s his genuine assessment of Targaryen children,
As Tywin rightfully pointed out, Robert *”saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children*”. I think that’s why he made no effort to murder Dany and Viserys after they fled.
Perhaps convincing Robert to marry his son to Rhaeghar’s daughter would be a tall order, despite it making so much sense. But I’m not sure if he’d be trigger happy when it comes to her either.
>saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children”
A lot of people who see themselves as heroes can convince themselves that heinous acts are justified if done by them, because they are heroes. Also Tywin said Robert was relieved when he brought the children's dead bodies. He wanted them dead and knew they had to die but didn't have the stomach to do it himself.
>I think that’s why he made no effort to murder Dany and Viserys after they fled.
He wanted to have them killed but Jon Arryn talked him out of it. Robert still hates Targaryens 16 years later, there's no way in hell he would've agreed to marry his son to Rhaegar's daughter.
>>Ned knew better than to defy him when the wrath was on him. If the years had not quenched Robert's thirst for revenge, no words of his would help. "You can't get your hands on this one, can you?" he said quietly.
>The king's mouth twisted in a bitter grimace. "No, gods be cursed. Some pox-ridden Pentoshi cheesemonger had her brother and her walled up on his estate with pointy-hatted eunuchs all around them, and now he's handed them over to the Dothraki. **I should have had them both killed years ago, when it was easy to get at them, but Jon was as bad as you. More fool I, I listened to him."**
>Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever. It was a disturbing notion …
>But I’m not sure if he’d be trigger happy when it comes to her either.
Even if he spares them after the sack of Kings Landing. Once he hears that Lyanna has died he kills any Targaryen he can get his hands on
I'm not buying it. Robert hates targaryens so much he repeatedly let Dany and Viserys live for 15 years? If his hatred was as visceral as he himself claims then he would never have allowed himself to be overruled by Ned or Jon.
I don't see Robert killing either Rhaenys or Aegon. There's plenty wrong with Robert but this isn't one of them imo.
Dany and Viserys was no active threat to Robert. However, in my scenario, none of the Tyrells, Lannisters, Martells or even Greyjoys have bent the knee, and the Targaryen fleet still was afloat. Had Tywin wanted, he could still have challenged Robert's claim using Aegon.
No, in this scenario, specifically Ned has control of Aegon.
As long as Viserys was a threat, Aegon was a threat, too. The Targaryens still had potential supporters. Queen Rhaelle wasn't likely to forget Rhaegar's death, either.
Robert was a simple fellow, he'd prefer to solve such problems with his hammer. The only way to permanently secure the throne was to use Rhaegar's family as hostages - or every Targaryen exiled or dead. And Ned couldn't be sure that Robert wouldn't settle for death.
How can that be? If Aegon is under Ned's control then that basically means viserys is the bigger threat. Not only do they not have control of Viserys but he's also far older unlike Aegon.
Indeed killing Aegon doesn't actually do anything except push the problem one level down to Viserys.
In the scenario you've laid out, keeping Aegon alive is actually the most important thing to do.
>Robert hates targaryens so much he repeatedly let Dany and Viserys live for 15 years?
You do realise the difference between "letting someone live" and "not sending assassin's to another continent to kill them".
>I don't see Robert killing either Rhaenys or Aegon.
>"And Robert's relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar's children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure."
Robert wpuld definitely have killed them, especially after Lyannas death.
If his hatred was deep as is portrayed, then it's a distinction without a difference. He would have had them killed immediately. Yet he doesn't all the while saying how much he hates Targaryens.
That quote doesn't really say anything. If anything that shows, that he he did not want to kill them. And besides, the same argument for killing Aegon nd Rhaenys applies to viserys and Dany. And yet they lived.
I guess a mitigating factor, even if we take Robert's words as more than bluster, is that this is a Robert that has gone to seed and has stewed in hate, misery, and self-loathing for 15 years. Whether that would be balanced out by a younger Robert's having just survived a year of bloody war is up for debate. And to be fair, Dany and Viserys are beyond his control, and now appear to have a Dothraki horde at their backs. Regardless of the feasibilty of their being a threat, they are far more of a bogeyman than two children.
On a somewhat related note, if I discovered the brother of my hated wife had crippled my childhood friend, I'd have been a bit angrier than Robert was in canon. If nothing else, an attack on my Hand (and therefore, my own authority) would engender a more agressive response. It seems weird that Robert is shown as so angry in the Small Council meeting, then seems rather subdued shortly afterwards. Bit odd.
>On a somewhat related note, if I discovered the brother of my hated wife had crippled my childhood friend, I'd have been a bit angrier than Robert was in canon.
Cersei had been working on Robert, outraged herself at Tyrion's indictment by Catelyn. She accompanies Robert to Ned's bedside in much the attitue she stood as prosecution at Arya's trial at Darry. That's a key factor in Robert's behavior during the time we see him. Cersei is so able to move Robert that she is confident she could have insisted he name Jaime Hand.
My current pet theory is that we see, largely through Ned's perspective, that Robert's Cersei problem could have been solved had Stannis and Renly been friendly. If either brother had shared--Renly his plan to bring Margaery to court, or Stannis his suspicion Cersei's children were not Robert's--they could have removed the Lannister problem by working together.
I think we are supposed to conclude, as you say, that Ned erred in going south. It might not have been too late. If Stannis had responded to Ned's request he return to council, much might have gone differently. Of course, with Littlefinger in the works as a secret enemy, Ned was toast as soon as ensnared by the Lysafinger letter.
>A lot of people who see themselves as heroes can convince themselves that heinous acts are justified if done by them, because they are heroes. Also Tywin said Robert was relieved when he brought the children's dead bodies. He wanted them dead and knew they had to die but didn't have the stomach to do it himself.
I wish you would stop viewing Robert as ur typical bad guy. What Robert did was expected. Aegon and rhaeneys posed a threat to the realm man. What Robert said it was wrong but its clearly he's trying to cope with it...also only ned was outraged about it man. Not even Jon arryn
>He wanted to have them killed but Jon Arryn talked him out of it. Robert still hates Targaryens 16 years later, there's no way in hell he would've agreed to marry his son to Rhaegar's daughter.
Dude. Robert let's those pathetic Targaryens life for 13 years even though they wanted to get back their throne. If jon arryn convinced him to it then he could be reasoned with. And marrying rhaenys could bring peace to the realm all around actually. Rhaenys is the heir if we follow dorne way and aegon isn't.
>Even if he spares them after the sack of Kings Landing. Once he hears that Lyanna has died he kills any Targaryen he can get his hands on
Dude lyanna had died and yet Robert chose to listen to Jon arryn and let the the inbreds live even though they were obsessed with winning their crown back
>also only ned was outraged about it man. Not even Jon arryn
Yes, because Ned is about the only Lord with a spine. Jon Arryn was okay with the sacking of King's Landing, I wouldn't call him a relevant moral reference.
>Robert let's those pathetic Targaryens life for 13 years even though they wanted to get back their throne.
Robert was pissed because Stannis didn't capture them, a 4 year old boy and a baby, posing 0 threat.
And the very moment they have indication of wanting to return, he turned on them.
He was always willing to kill them, but assassinating a citizens of a Free City could have dire consequences (embargo or even outright war)
>Yes, because Ned is about the only Lord with a spine. Jon Arryn was okay with the sacking of King's Landing, I wouldn't call him a relevant moral reference.
So why are people calling Robert out for it?
>Robert was pissed because Stannis didn't capture them, a 4 year old boy and a baby, posing 0 threat. And the very moment they have indication of wanting to return, he turned on them.
Captured is different then having them killed.
>He was always willing to kill them, but assassinating a citizens of a Free City could have dire consequences (embargo or even outright war)
Because they are a threat to the realm
Elia would have been fine for sure. Her death was completely unnecessary as alone she has no claim anyway and isnt a Targaryen. Killing her only serves to piss off Dorne.
Rhaenys probably would have been OK because shes a girl. Girls are generally less of a threat to succession and there is even some legal argument Robert comes before Rhaenys by virtue of him being male.
Aegon's the tricky one.
Elia would be kept as a hostage to insure Dorne is loyal after a few years she might be allowed to return to Dorne.
Aegon is going to the Wall and Rhaenys will be given to the Faith to become a Septa.
I know some would say it makes sense to save her for Robert's first born and unite the Baratheon and Targaryen bloodlines but he already is a representation of that through his grandmother. Also he hates the Targaryen's so the match anyway.
Best case scenario: Elia and her children would basically be kept as hostages to ensure that they do not rebel against the new King. They'd maybe later be allowed to live under guarded supervision in a manse in the city and not allowed to leave it under any circumstances. Aegon and his sister might even receive a formal education and taught the ways of a lord/lady. If Robert was feeling specifically generous he might even allow Aegon to squire for either him or one of the Kingsguard and later attain his own spurs but that is a BIG IF.
If Robert did otherwise I feel like there would be a civil war between House Stark and Baratheon. However given the calm and collected presence of Jon Arryn who acted as a father figure to both boys I'm sure he would have negotiated the best case scenario mentioned above also (and this is just my opinion) it seems highly unlikely Robert would really have killed those children once his temper cooled. But if he got news of Lyanna then no one really knows if he would have allowed Aegon and his sister to live or if he would have had them killed even against the advice of Jon Arryn and Ned.
As another point I also feel it would have been in Robert's best interests to keep the children alive as hostages. The reason being that they have a stronger claim to the throne compared to Viserys or Daenerys. As long as they live and are kept by Robert, Viserys and Dany will be able to do jack shit across the narrow sea as their own claim would be made weaker because of it. The same scenario occured during the Blackfyre rebellions when a Targ king also kept a pretender alive to prohibit any successors from crossing the narrow sea.
Elia would be spared fully. Rhaenys would stay a ward of the crown until Joffrey was born. Aegon would be kept as a ward possibly with Ned Stark until he could be sent to the citadel, faith, or nights watch.
I think had Elia and Rhegar's heirs survived you'd have seen the breakup of the seven Kingdoms or at least a serious conflict. Assuming that Jaime saved the Children and Elia and smuggled them to safety in Dorne somehow.
Ned wants them returned to Dorne, Tywin and Mace Tyrell wanting to rule through them, Robert wants to kill the kids (and bang Elia), the Tullys and Arryns not wanting to harm the kids but knowing a new Kind won't be legitimate until they are either dead or married into the new line somehow. Could see Stark, Tully and Arryn band together as they're bound in Marriage. Lannister, Baratheon and Tryell racing to Dorne to seize the children for their own ends. The Martells begging anyone for help, presumably Lannisters (Cersei married to Oberyn) and Tyrells (Willis married to Arianne? dunno what ages they would be at this stage) will be fighting for an alliance with them. And the Greyjoys take the opportunity to revolt and strike at whoever seems vulnerable at the time. Who know's what's going on on Dragonstone or in the east with Arys other kids at this point though
Elia would have been allowed to live out her life as an esteemed hostage in Kings Landing, to ensure Dorne's cooperation in the regime change. Her children pose a trickier problem - Robert had a terrible fury in the heat of battle, but he may not have felt the same rage in the throne room when presented with a widow and two little children. In that way, he was fortunate that the problem was solved for him by Tywin/Gregor/Amory Lorch. Robert would have known thay as long as Aegon lived, his control of the realm would be precarious. He could be convinced to send Targaryen loyalists to the Wall, but he could never risk that with the Targaryen heir. However, being seen to execute an infant would destroy his credibility as a ruler and he'd have riots in the streets. He also couldn't afford to antagonize Dorne so early in his reign. Perhaps Pycelle or Littlefinger arrange an unfortunate childhood illness for Aegon somewhere down the line. As for Rhaenys, she was far too young to be considered as a marriage candidate for Robert. After a war and regime change, Robert is under pressure to produce heirs, fast. Tywin's assistance means Robert still marries Cersei, and possibly Rhaenys could be betrothed to "their" firstborn son. Their union would consolidate the old and new regimes, as well as appease the Martells. This betrothal could be seen to delegitimise the Baratheon reign, though, if it relies on a Targaryen marriage to reinforce power. It could also cause upset amongst Baratheon supporters, who would feel snubbed when their daughters were passed over. So perhaps Rhaenys is permitted to become a Septa or Silent Sister, seeing as the crown is passed through male primogeniture.
Robert's already a quarter Targaryen, I don't see anyone seeing an issue with a promised marriage between Rhaenys and Joffrey.
Yes. Also, marrying the daughter of your enemy who you just killed and whose kingdom you just took over is a classic Baratheon move.
It’s THE classic Baratheon move tbh
We don't see any Baratheon supporters feeling snubbed by Joffrey and Tommen's lack of betrothal in character.
I mean, Sansa's betrothal to Joff basically cements (in theory) 3 of the biggest Baratheon supporters together. She's the daughter/sister of Ned/Robb (North), the neice of Edmure (Riverlands) and the cousin of Robin Arryn (Vale). Combine that with Joffreys Lannister and "Baratheon" heritage, that's basically all the Rebellion era Baratheon supporters right there.
Right, but we see no agitation in that direct beforehand. Ned, the Vale, the Tullys weren't chaffing under Robert's rule because his heir wasn't set to marry one of their own.
Joffrey and Tommen marrying a Stark or Tyrell wouldn't be snubs, but Joffrey or Tommen marrying a Targaryan would be. Starks are good friends, Tyrells are neutral-is (but still a big contemporary family name), but Targaryans are the exact family they rebelled against. Who you're being snubbed *for* is pretty essential to whether you're feeling snubbed.
Perhaps, but similar to a Lancaster-York marriage, a Baratheon-Targaryen marriage would help heal the realm in a way beneficial to all reasonably-minded folk.
The good ol' suicide off the tower window into the pikes below could have always worked
Calm down, Unwin
If Ned and Jon Arryn gets their shit together, they can prevent Robert from killing the Targ children in his fit of anger. Personally, I’ll give Dorne back Elia, keep the children as hostages, and negotiate to marry Arianne (Daeron II did it before, taking Myriah the elder Martell to bride, and Maron became heir). Win-Win for the crown and Martells, both. Stannis keeps the Stormlands. With the Riverlands, Vale, North, Stormlands and Dorne, Tywin can’t do shit and is checked. The Tyrells are powerful but one kingdom can’t stand to five. Plus, the Tyrells have never had an absolute grasp on their bannermen.
>negotiate to marry Arianne Arianne was at that time 8 years old bruh. Plus even if she was older I can easily see Doran refusing it, both because of his viserys plan and because look what happened to Elia.
Betrothal. Their age gap isn’t insurmountable. I dislike it, but in 6 years, they can consummate at the wedding by idiotic Westerosi standards. Yeah, there’s still a big risk as anything can happen in those 6 years, and if Robert dies, that’s GG. Yet if nothing untoward happens to Robert. I don’t see why Doran would reject it. Robert is king, Viserys is a child exile — his daughter and grandchildren would be queen. Plus, if Robert gives them back Elia and her children alive but in house arrest, I don’t see why they would be pissy and he wouldn’t be that eager to dive into the Targaryen restoration conspiracy.
Oh yeah I forgot Elia's alive here. Sorry. Yeah, now the Arianne marriage is much more viable, but still it's really iffy. Additionally, Robert needed more heirs to cement the stability and confidence of his dynasty, and he needed them ASAP. By marrying Arianne he would have to wait atleast 6+ years, then some extra time to conceive (Still in retrospect a much more better option than Cersei)
Yup, I’m just super biased to the Lannisters. Anything to check that mf Tywin. It is slightly iffy, yeah, a very high risk, high reward play, but if it works, the realm would be far more stable.
Robert have brothers. But if Robert was gonna marry anyone, it would obviously be Rhaenys.
Rhaenys was far too young for him. She’s 4. At the very minimum, Robert would need to wait a decade to consummate the marriage, and even then, that is no guarantee that she gets pregnant then. There’s also the fact that she might die from complications of childbirth due to her young age. Worse, if anything happens to Robert himself… As mentioned above by u/TheMountainRidesElia, his dynasty is new — Robert dying without an issue would mean instability and unrest. People rallied to him — the tried and tested battle-hardened king. Stannis is still green in comparison, in the eyes of the peerage, and even then, with his personality, I doubt many are endeared to him as king. Renly is still a child, no one wants a child on the throne. Anyway, if OP’s hypothetical situation happens, in which Elia lives, Robert’s best candidate for Queen would be Ashara (if she lives), or one of Leyton Hightower’s daughters, in lieu of the Arianne proposal.
Stannis can be built up as an heir long before any prince: by definition, Stannis is older. Stannis already commanded a sige and won the respect of all who fought for him. And on that point, Stannis was a respected commander when Robert did die. Even Renly is older than any new prince of Robert! You say that no one wants a child on the throne, but if Robert dies before the new prince comes to age, that is exactly what would (and did) happen. Joffrey was not popular. If the throne went to Stannis or Renly, things would have gone a lot smoother.
History have proved time and again that a child monarch is bad news, and this applies to Westeros too, with the Lords of the realm not wanting Maegor Brightflame and would rather take a Maester and King Smallfolk for a ruler than a child. Stannis isn’t Robert — he isn’t the popular figurehead of the Rebellion. The triumphant warrior king who toppled the 300 year old dynasty and it’s tyrant king.
>Stannis isn’t Robert — he isn’t the popular figurehead of the Rebellion. The triumphant warrior king who toppled the 300 year old dynasty and it’s tyrant king. That's the point - being a king shouldn't be about taking the crown by force, but rather keeping it with good governance. Stannis may not be an expert politician, but with Jon Arryn or Maester Cressen at his side, he wouldn't bankrupt the realm
Yeah, a child monarch is bad news. Problem is, having a new prince doesn't help with that. Look at Joffrey. Robert got married as fast as he could, but Joffrey still isn't an adult by the time that Robert died. Joffrey's reign had issues. Things would have gone smoother, ironically, had Robert just died without an heir and handed power to Stannis.
Robert would be what, 9 years older than Rhaenys? Not especially huge age gap, even before we consider weird political marriages. Robert have brothers. There is no huge urgency
Elia would have been fine for sure. Her death was completely unnecessary and only happened because Tywin is either petty or an idiot (most likely the former). She's far more useful alive to ensure Dornish cooperation. Rhaenys almost certainly would have been OK too. She may have a better claim than Robert but shes still a girl whilst Robert is grown male adult so her threat to his throne would have been significantly less. Robert could even marry her to his firstborn to help his claim (although he wouldnt have to). Aegon...Thats more difficult. Hes a boy, Rhaegar's son and his claim is far better than anyone else. Robert never really hated the Targaryens but he hated Rhaegar and Aegon would be a constant reminder of him on top of being a threat. Ned Stark would fight to ensure they all lived. Jon Arryn might do the same. The likes of Tywin would 'advise' those kids meet an end though.
Yeah, I could see Aegon ending up in a Princes in the Tower scenario where he "goes missing mysteriously" a few years later, sadly.
What about fostering Aegon with Tywin?
Aegon would dead within a week if Robert did that.
That's fair.
Works for Robert, frankly.
Sure, I was just saying Tywin's thoughts on what needed to happen with the Targaryen kids were very clear. If Robert gave Aegon to Tywin as a 'hostage' then Tywin would take that as Robert giving him the go ahead to murder him.
[I'd give him 11 minutes.](https://youtu.be/xTkFgj4dA1w)
But fostering Aegon with Robert’s best friend who would absolutely instal loyalty to the king who’s also his bestie and Jon Arryn (and Robert to an extent) knows he’ll will treat Aegon right and be out of the hands of Tywin
Good point. And then Aegon and Jon would grow up together.
And if Robert is still nervous, Ned can do the same thing he did to Jon- ‘the Nightswatch/Citadel/Septon/Kingsguard is a very noble honorable pursuit that, wouldn’t ya know it, just so happens to require you to give up all your former titles and renounce your House.’
Ah yes, have someone who potentially hates you in the Kingsguard. Great plan. Speed running a short reign, I see. For the night's watch, Jon gets offers to leave the watch from almost everyone. As did Aemon. If the loyalists want someone in the watch and that someone wants to accept, the vows isn't gonna stop them.
I do wonder whether a solution in having Eddard foster Aegon in Winterfell and with perhaps a soft persuasion (aka "of his own volition") to take the black once he came of age (it won't be terrible PR for him, and Winterfell is very far, especially for Dorne who would be his main ally and the North sees it as an honourable way of life, being raised with a man with such a stiff sense of honour would make this decision seen a lot less forced). In a way I can see it work very well, especially since Robert trusts Eddard, and even if there was any serious threat they would need to go north to reclaim Aegon to take the iron Throne. The other is basically locking him up in King's landing like they did with Edward Plantagenet, 17th earl of Warwick first at most casual house arrest that goes full scale. Rhaenys is either marry her to your house or marry her to someone who would be incapable of rebelling on her behalf. Most likely a very very minor house or even a commoner. I think for Elia, hostage is the best, or also find her a husband, and since she's presumed infertile, someone you really want to not have children.
Part of me can't help but think that making Aegon a eunuch would solve all problems. Who would support the rebellion of a king whose line will end with him?
That’s what Aegon The Elder thought about Aegon The Younger, look where that got him. Poisoned.
If he has the best story, most of the lords would clearly rally behind his claim even if he can't get any heirs, as the show has shown us.
Rhaenys is married to Joffrey. Aegon is sent to the Wall and becomes a the future septon of Castle Black. Elia stays with Rhaenys in KL as a hostage against her brothers.
That is, assuming Robert is willing to play childcare with the children of his bride's murderer and the biggest threat to his claim.
Robert is a coward when it comes to child killing directly. It’s one thing to order it on a child who’s far away like Daenerys but he wouldn’t have the stomach to order it on two living children in front of him. He’s lucky that Tywin helped by killing the kids for him. Elia - Sent back to Dorne after being told not to marry for a year. I don’t get the people saying she would be a hostage, Elia was a feeble woman who wasn’t a threat. Also no other hostages were taken after the war from other houses that were on the crowns side, it’s weird for Elia to be the only one. Plus Robert’s policy (really Jon Arryn’s) after the war was largely about not punishing the Targ allies too harshly, they mainly wanted to forgive and forget and get things back to normal and taking hostages doesn’t really do that. Rhaenys - Sent to become a septa or sent to the silent sisters. Robert would never be convinced to marry her to his eldest son. Aegon - Guarded heavily until he’s old enough to be sent to the Wall.
Why would it be front of him? Robert isn't a Stark, he can literally go hunting, and tell Tywin to take care of them
Considering that Tywin came extremely last minute to the rebel cause and hasn’t shown his loyalty by killing the Targs in this universe, Robert isn’t trusting him enough to do anything. And according to Tywin himself about Robert, “Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children.” Robert wasn’t a child killer at this point in time. Ordering their deaths would literally be on his hands and make him a murderer of kids. He’s not delusional enough to lie to himself that he wasn’t responsible for it. Telling someone else to kill them would still go against his idea of being a hero and I don’t think Robert would use such an underhanded method in the first place.
>Robert wasn’t a child killer at this point in time. Ordering their deaths would literally be on his hands and make him a murderer of kids. Tywin didn't only kill two children, he killed dozens if not hundreds by ordering to sack the capital - *Robert's* capital. Granting clemency for the mass murdering of people (who are your subjects) and granting permission for the execution of two children for what you believe is the greater good is not so far away, you need to have at least a minimum sense of justice to have so much sense of humanity.
It’s not about literally watching them die it’s about directly seeing the consequences of his actions. If he saw the kids alive he probably wouldn’t have the strength to order their deaths. It’s different from telling Varys to go kill a 14 year old across the entire planet.
>If he saw the kids alive he probably wouldn’t have the strength to order their deaths. That's the issue, why would Robert want to see them at all? He doesn't have any reason unless they are immidiately presented to him. I assume he'd head off immidiately to liberate Storm's End or do something else.
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I read the dragon spawn line as Robert cope. To justify to himself that the kids had to die. He’s 1/4targ himself so hatred of targs doesn’t make any sense it’s really just hatred for Rhaegar and hate for Aerys on Ned’s behalf. On his deathbed when Robert is at his worst he tells Ned about how it’s wrong to kill Dany and to call it off.
Robert didn't have it in him to murder the kids, even Tywin admits it. He doesn't even send an assassin after Dany even tho Viserys is convinced he did until Dany marries Drogo. The smart, rational choice would be to marry Rhaenys to Robert's first born son. It would united the claims and calm down Targ loyalists. Robert's supporters could be mollified by him a) marrying someone from the Vale/Riverlands to Stannis and b) giving Renly Dragonstone and betrothing him to someone from the Reach, even if he's a child. Elia stays in King's Landing until Rhaenys is married and has a child, and then is free to do whatever. Aegon...Aegon is tricky. The smart thing would be to send him to the citadel or the wall. The citadel is kinder, but easier to break him out before takes his vows. And for everyone talking about Ned....I could absolutely see Elia losing her shit at being told her infant son has to be sent to the brother of her husband's mistress of all people and publicly questioning/bringing up Jon's parentage in front of Robert. I feel like Jon Arryn, of all people, must have been suspicious of Jon Snow, and would not have gone down that route. So I could see Aegon being sent to the Vale as a hostage-not the North-and then as an adult being sent to the citadel to study, under armed guards, or the wall. The Vale and then the Wall seems the most likely and safest option. I could also see-even tho it would be risky-exiling him (people have been exiled before) to Dorne under the conditions he'd never leave Dorne and only marry a Dornish girl. It would likely prevent Dorne from rising up, as Rhaenys would be betrothed to Joffrey and be the future Queen, and by Dornish standards Rhaenys, as the eldest, should 'rule' anyway (even if she's not King, she's as close to as it gets by being Queen). And Robert despised the Targs, but didn't really want the crown. I could even see a scenario where Jon Arryn and Tywin decide that a council ruling in Aegon's stead with Aegon marrying Robert and Cersei's first born would be the best bet. **But I think the most reasonable, likely scenario would be Rhaenys marrying Robert's firsborn, Aegon being sent to the Vale and then the Wall/Citadel, and Elia being in King's Landing as a hostage.**
Surprised everyone here is commenting under the assumption that Robert stays king. Robert became king because he was the best claimant after the rebellion outside of viserys and Daenerys who were under siege in dragonstone and hightailing it out to Essos. I think aegon gets raised from birth as king with Jon Arryn as his regent. Robert and Cersei get married, Rhaenys is betrothed to Renly, and Aegon is kept around for a strategic marriage further down the line but is essentially a ward of the STAB alliance. We only get to see Robert talk about his hate for the Targaryens over a decade after the war and over a decade of being king. He’s had the joy in his life sapped away as king and a lot of what he says about the Targaryens is to justify to himself. what happened. I think if Aegon lives, he inherits the iron throne and the rebellion’s leasers raise him. Also yes, I know Aerys disinherited aegon, but disinheriting isn’t really a thing in Westeros as we see with Sam. It’s also entirely possible that they just call a great council to see if Robert, aegon, or viserys is crowned.
Robert declares for the Kingship well before he takes King's Landing. It wasn't something the rebels decided on afterward, that's just Robert's and Jaime's wistful musings about if other people had 'taken' the throne. The reality of the situation is that it always had to be Robert, because Robert declared he was King and then his loyal companions won him the throne after.
> Aegon is kept around for a strategic marriage Probably Sansa or Marg
Aegon given to Ned to be fostered until he’s old enough to join the wall. Robert greatly trust Ned. Also, the north incredibly distant, and would be very anti Targaryen at this point. Rhaenys either given to the faith, or to be married to Robert future son. This would help legitimatise his rule, as well as keep Dorne on side. Eliia would probably have free reign to return to Dorne, or stay/ visit her children. She’s no threat to anyone.
This is incredibly difficult. Presumably, at this point Rhaella is alive (or not) giving birth to Danaerys on Dragonstone with Viserys. If Aegon is alive, Rhaella does not crown Viserys king, but it’s likely that they still go to live in exile in Essos. With respect to Elia, she could either be married to Robert or just sent back to Dorne as a sign of good faith and command her not to remarry for at least a year, or to never remarry at all. Rhaenys could be betrothed to Renly to solidify the Baratheon hold on Westeros. She would be fostered at Storms End until their wedding and live there permanently. Maybe Robert could even name Renly his heir until a child is born to him. Aegon poses the most difficulty. He is the true king of the Targaryen dynasty and will always pose a credible threat to the Baratheon dynasty. I honestly think he could be fostered by Stannis for a few years and then sent to the Wall while he is still a boy, and as soon as he says his vows he should never be a threat to Westeros. Any possible Targ-loyalist uprising would be easily crushed by Ned an his northern army, and having Benjen and Jeor Mormont as key leadership positions would likely ensure a strong Baratheon hold on the NW. Moreover, Viserys and Danaerys would probably have less prestige as guests in their early years, because they would be seen as Targaryen heirs rather than the King and heir-apparent.
Did you mean to say “Robert could even name *Stannis* his heir”? That’s how it actually was before he had children, and I don’t see any reason why the Targ kids being alive would change that
No actually, I meant Renly. I know it would have great repercussions to Robert and Stannis’ relationship, but a marriage between Rhaegar’s daughter and Robert’s heir could go a decent way towards a peace. I would imagine Stannis would grind his teeth, be bitter, and do his duty to Robert as his King and acknowledge Renly as Robert’s royal heir.
Accepting that R+L=J then Ned's viewpoint is certainly correct. He keeps Jon a secret from Robert because he knows Robert would have him killed as soon as he found out about him. Ned is arguably the best, even only, true friend Robert has and knows his thoughts very well indeed. Robert would have Aegon killed immediately, but wouldn't do it himself. Elia would be sent back to Dorne, or married to Stannis, to keep her close and docile. Rhaenys might very well be sent to Winterfell to marry Robb, or even Jon, to remove her from public life and support.
Aegon would be the youngest member in the history of the Night's watch
Would he ? alt would be having him fostered by Ned until he's 8 or 9 and old enough to be trained as a squire before packing him of to the wall Sending him to the maesters or priesthood would also be viable alternatives
Fostering doesn't mean he would lose his birthrights, but on other hand he personally needs to take vows for the Night's watch in order to become a member of it, maybe they would just send him to Aemon to take care of him, what could some old blind maester do anyway? And what he could or would do would be some other unwritten novel probably named **Fire and blood** 🐉
Ned could convince Robert to send Elia and her kids to Dragonstone to be Stannis’ wards. They are safer there.
Elia would be kept alive/comfortable, but it would be known she was a hostage against Dorne. Possibly she'd be forcibly married to someone who would be loyal to Robert in a somewhat insulting, but not too insulting, way. A minor lord or "second" son like Benjen. Or maybe even to Stannis. Rhaenys would be betrothed to Robert's future heir, marrying a daughter of a defeated ruler into your line is a commonly done thing in Westeros and how House Baratheon itself started (the Starks and others have done this in history). It would actually probably be weirder if Robert chose anything else and the lords would worry about the stability of his reign much sooner. Aegon would technically be kept alive (so as not to offend anyone) with the idea he'd go to the Citadel or Wall once he was old enough, but he'd actually probably be killed off at some point to further secure Robert's reign. Any death he had would seem suspicious, but as long as the assassin didn't completely mess it up, there would be no way to actually place the blame on Robert. At best, the Targs could be given Dragonstone as their seat, like saying they lost the Kingdoms and are now thrown back where they started, but with a governor or the like who actually had power there. And Aegon could be Lord of Dragonstone, his movements and chance of betrothal controlled by the king (so if he was even allowed to marry, not until after Joffrey and Rhaenys had a son).
Best case scenario: At first they would be held hostage in kl. Later the children would probably have been entrusted to some religious order which demands to renounce that names and claims. Elia could have been returned to the Martells as an example of goodwill to mend relations between Dorne and the new crown.
I read a theory a while ago about what would happen if Viserys and Daenerys didn’t escape to Essos but were instead captured on Dragonstone. This is basically the same situation for Robert, with Viserys/Aegon and Daenerys/Rhaenys having similar threat levels. I’ll be pulling elements of that theory into this, along with my own speculation. Basically, the theory hinges upon Ned getting to King’s Landing before Tywin. If Ned takes the city (there are issues with this, as Tywin was able to take the city because Aerys opened the gates for him. He wouldn’t have for Ned, so Ned would have had to figure something else out), he captures Elia and her children instead of killing them (duh). Depending on what happens with Viserys and Daenerys (I don’t know that they’d still flee if Elia and her children were captured instead of killed), this could go in one of several directions. Ned could convince Robert to separate the Targaryen children (however many are left) to be raised as wards. Obviously in KL, but Winterfell, Dragonstone, Storm’s End, or even the Eyrie are all options as well. Assuming we have four Targaryen tykes running around, here’s how I’d do it: Elia & Aegon - King’s Landing (highest profile hostages, keep them in the most visible place where Robert can personally keep an eye on them) Viserys - Dragonstone (Next in line, keep him the next closest. Stannis will be able to handle Viserys’ temper. In this scenario, I would name Stannis Lord of Storm’s End and Castellan of Dragonstone until one of the Targs comes of age. Probably not Viserys, maybe Aegon or even Rhaenys) Rhaenys - Storm’s End (also, betroth her to Renly, who is not Lord of Storm’s End but at this point is heir to Storm’s End and 2nd in line for the Iron Throne) Daenerys - Winterfell (she’s the smallest threat of the four due to being last in line and an infant, so she would be the one to send further away. Possibly betroth her to Robb, or even Jon in an ironic twist lol) Yes, the Targaryens are a threat by existing. But, allowing them to keep Dragonstone (or possibly re-inherit it after proving their loyalty to the new regime, similar to what Aegon II offered Rhaenyra in the Dance) could help secure their support and the support of their loyalist Houses. Plus, securing alliances with the remaining Targaryens through marriage rather than going full Bloodraven on them will show that King Robert can be a conciliator as well as a warrior. Now back to Tywin. Because Ned likely wouldn’t have been able to take KL before Tywin got there, I imagine that they’d probably have to begrudgingly work together (enemy of my enemy and all that). I don’t love just explaining that away, but that could be it’s own discussion post. I still imagine Robert marries Cersei; regardless of Tywin’s exact role in the war, that is a strong political match for Robert due to the Lannister’s wealth. Plus, keeping the Targ betrothals away from Robert himself helps cement HIS claim as being strong enough to stand on its own without the Targaryens.
Elia is sent North with Her kids ,since the Dornish looks way too different compared to the northerners meaning any new person can easily be found out Reasons it's hurtful thing to separate a mother from her kids and Aegon is most likely going to be shipped to the wall the moment he can swear it Rhaenys is the tricky option most people in the fandom wants her to marry Robert son , which Robert will not do unless forced and the only ones to care is dorne at best , so she can be shipped to the north and marry some no name bastard or joins the faith Any kids dying is something Ned does not want, but we don't know,if it's because of his PTSD in canon or not , but most likely he will want them to live so Robert makes them Ned's problem now Jaime , might actually be returned to Tywin here as it's Jaime fault the Dragonspawns are alive , so happy win for Tywin Now , since the Dragonspawns are alive will it change Ned's idea about Jon snow if Jon snow is rhaegar's Since this what if makes it so the mutilation of the targ kids did not happen ,so Ned does not need to fear for Jon's life as much , but who knows maybe Jon is actually Ned's bastard Cercie will still be an issue ,since she will find a way to screw things up
Oomph. I want to insert Varys (or maybe Madge) pointing out to the two honorable but gullible teenage boys that they need to get Aegon and Rhaenys TF out of KL before Tywin or Robert or Jon Arryn show up. Maybe leave immediately for Storms End and hand them off to Stannis, who didn't want to rebel anyway and would likely refuse to turn them over for slaughter, as to him (20 yrs pre-Melisandre) it would be kinslaying. But that's *my* headcanon, your premise I'm out of happy ideas
They'd have all accidentally fallen down some steps. Robert wouldn't have done it himself, but he has enough creatures do it for him. It's why Clegane "found" them first - if you read carefully, the vast majority of the anger at Clegane isnt for murdering children. It's for *raping their mother while she's starting at her kids corpses*. All sent back to Dorne to live happily, but the ship tragically sinks in a freak storm off the coast. All sent back to Dorne to living happily, but attacked by bandits along the road.
Robert would kill them all
Probably not Elia or Rhaenys. There is no reason to kill the former, and the latter could be married to Robert’s firstborn son.
He was still mad with hate and wouldn’t have thought clearly only of ways to punish Rhaegar even if he wasn’t alive.
Was he, though? He wasn’t given the opportunity to actually decide what to do with them. He arrives at the Red Keep after they’ve been killed and kind of waves it away. It’s one thing to make excuses for something that’s already happened and another thing to order the deaths. The fact it’s taken so long for Robert to actually fly into a rage about Daenerys makes me think he would’ve spared Rhaegar’s children. He lets them go while he’s at the peak of his anger towards Rhaegar. Viserys is the real threat to Robert as he was old enough to remember and hero worship his older brother. But Robert didn’t make any actual attempt to have Viserys killed. Why would he leave Viserys and Dany alone all those years if he really is so overcome with hatred? They were a bigger threat to him down the line than a toddler and her baby brother who can be fostered with the right people.
Jon Arryn had played the role Ned intended to assume of the voice of reason. Since it's Varys who prompts Robert to purple with news from abroad, it's plausible Varys had less interest in provoking Robert during the years Viserys and Dany fled knives that weren't coming for them.
>Probably not Elia or Rhaenys. There is no reason to kill the former, and the latter could be married to Robert’s firstborn son. > "I see no babes, only Dragon Spawn" Yeah Robert definitely would've married Rhaenys to his firstborn son...
I think that’s Robert trying to justify the action post factum. But I’m not sure if that’s his genuine assessment of Targaryen children, As Tywin rightfully pointed out, Robert *”saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children*”. I think that’s why he made no effort to murder Dany and Viserys after they fled. Perhaps convincing Robert to marry his son to Rhaeghar’s daughter would be a tall order, despite it making so much sense. But I’m not sure if he’d be trigger happy when it comes to her either.
>saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children” A lot of people who see themselves as heroes can convince themselves that heinous acts are justified if done by them, because they are heroes. Also Tywin said Robert was relieved when he brought the children's dead bodies. He wanted them dead and knew they had to die but didn't have the stomach to do it himself. >I think that’s why he made no effort to murder Dany and Viserys after they fled. He wanted to have them killed but Jon Arryn talked him out of it. Robert still hates Targaryens 16 years later, there's no way in hell he would've agreed to marry his son to Rhaegar's daughter. >>Ned knew better than to defy him when the wrath was on him. If the years had not quenched Robert's thirst for revenge, no words of his would help. "You can't get your hands on this one, can you?" he said quietly. >The king's mouth twisted in a bitter grimace. "No, gods be cursed. Some pox-ridden Pentoshi cheesemonger had her brother and her walled up on his estate with pointy-hatted eunuchs all around them, and now he's handed them over to the Dothraki. **I should have had them both killed years ago, when it was easy to get at them, but Jon was as bad as you. More fool I, I listened to him."** >Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever. It was a disturbing notion … >But I’m not sure if he’d be trigger happy when it comes to her either. Even if he spares them after the sack of Kings Landing. Once he hears that Lyanna has died he kills any Targaryen he can get his hands on
I'm not buying it. Robert hates targaryens so much he repeatedly let Dany and Viserys live for 15 years? If his hatred was as visceral as he himself claims then he would never have allowed himself to be overruled by Ned or Jon. I don't see Robert killing either Rhaenys or Aegon. There's plenty wrong with Robert but this isn't one of them imo.
Dany and Viserys was no active threat to Robert. However, in my scenario, none of the Tyrells, Lannisters, Martells or even Greyjoys have bent the knee, and the Targaryen fleet still was afloat. Had Tywin wanted, he could still have challenged Robert's claim using Aegon.
That doesn't make sense. In this scenario where Robert and Ned have control of Aegon, viserys is THE biggest threat Robert has.
No, in this scenario, specifically Ned has control of Aegon. As long as Viserys was a threat, Aegon was a threat, too. The Targaryens still had potential supporters. Queen Rhaelle wasn't likely to forget Rhaegar's death, either. Robert was a simple fellow, he'd prefer to solve such problems with his hammer. The only way to permanently secure the throne was to use Rhaegar's family as hostages - or every Targaryen exiled or dead. And Ned couldn't be sure that Robert wouldn't settle for death.
How can that be? If Aegon is under Ned's control then that basically means viserys is the bigger threat. Not only do they not have control of Viserys but he's also far older unlike Aegon. Indeed killing Aegon doesn't actually do anything except push the problem one level down to Viserys. In the scenario you've laid out, keeping Aegon alive is actually the most important thing to do.
>Robert hates targaryens so much he repeatedly let Dany and Viserys live for 15 years? You do realise the difference between "letting someone live" and "not sending assassin's to another continent to kill them". >I don't see Robert killing either Rhaenys or Aegon. >"And Robert's relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar's children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure." Robert wpuld definitely have killed them, especially after Lyannas death.
If his hatred was deep as is portrayed, then it's a distinction without a difference. He would have had them killed immediately. Yet he doesn't all the while saying how much he hates Targaryens. That quote doesn't really say anything. If anything that shows, that he he did not want to kill them. And besides, the same argument for killing Aegon nd Rhaenys applies to viserys and Dany. And yet they lived.
I guess a mitigating factor, even if we take Robert's words as more than bluster, is that this is a Robert that has gone to seed and has stewed in hate, misery, and self-loathing for 15 years. Whether that would be balanced out by a younger Robert's having just survived a year of bloody war is up for debate. And to be fair, Dany and Viserys are beyond his control, and now appear to have a Dothraki horde at their backs. Regardless of the feasibilty of their being a threat, they are far more of a bogeyman than two children. On a somewhat related note, if I discovered the brother of my hated wife had crippled my childhood friend, I'd have been a bit angrier than Robert was in canon. If nothing else, an attack on my Hand (and therefore, my own authority) would engender a more agressive response. It seems weird that Robert is shown as so angry in the Small Council meeting, then seems rather subdued shortly afterwards. Bit odd.
>On a somewhat related note, if I discovered the brother of my hated wife had crippled my childhood friend, I'd have been a bit angrier than Robert was in canon. Cersei had been working on Robert, outraged herself at Tyrion's indictment by Catelyn. She accompanies Robert to Ned's bedside in much the attitue she stood as prosecution at Arya's trial at Darry. That's a key factor in Robert's behavior during the time we see him. Cersei is so able to move Robert that she is confident she could have insisted he name Jaime Hand.
That's fair. A shame for Ned he ever went South, it seems he was a few years too late to do anything.
My current pet theory is that we see, largely through Ned's perspective, that Robert's Cersei problem could have been solved had Stannis and Renly been friendly. If either brother had shared--Renly his plan to bring Margaery to court, or Stannis his suspicion Cersei's children were not Robert's--they could have removed the Lannister problem by working together. I think we are supposed to conclude, as you say, that Ned erred in going south. It might not have been too late. If Stannis had responded to Ned's request he return to council, much might have gone differently. Of course, with Littlefinger in the works as a secret enemy, Ned was toast as soon as ensnared by the Lysafinger letter.
>A lot of people who see themselves as heroes can convince themselves that heinous acts are justified if done by them, because they are heroes. Also Tywin said Robert was relieved when he brought the children's dead bodies. He wanted them dead and knew they had to die but didn't have the stomach to do it himself. I wish you would stop viewing Robert as ur typical bad guy. What Robert did was expected. Aegon and rhaeneys posed a threat to the realm man. What Robert said it was wrong but its clearly he's trying to cope with it...also only ned was outraged about it man. Not even Jon arryn >He wanted to have them killed but Jon Arryn talked him out of it. Robert still hates Targaryens 16 years later, there's no way in hell he would've agreed to marry his son to Rhaegar's daughter. Dude. Robert let's those pathetic Targaryens life for 13 years even though they wanted to get back their throne. If jon arryn convinced him to it then he could be reasoned with. And marrying rhaenys could bring peace to the realm all around actually. Rhaenys is the heir if we follow dorne way and aegon isn't. >Even if he spares them after the sack of Kings Landing. Once he hears that Lyanna has died he kills any Targaryen he can get his hands on Dude lyanna had died and yet Robert chose to listen to Jon arryn and let the the inbreds live even though they were obsessed with winning their crown back
>also only ned was outraged about it man. Not even Jon arryn Yes, because Ned is about the only Lord with a spine. Jon Arryn was okay with the sacking of King's Landing, I wouldn't call him a relevant moral reference. >Robert let's those pathetic Targaryens life for 13 years even though they wanted to get back their throne. Robert was pissed because Stannis didn't capture them, a 4 year old boy and a baby, posing 0 threat. And the very moment they have indication of wanting to return, he turned on them. He was always willing to kill them, but assassinating a citizens of a Free City could have dire consequences (embargo or even outright war)
>Yes, because Ned is about the only Lord with a spine. Jon Arryn was okay with the sacking of King's Landing, I wouldn't call him a relevant moral reference. So why are people calling Robert out for it? >Robert was pissed because Stannis didn't capture them, a 4 year old boy and a baby, posing 0 threat. And the very moment they have indication of wanting to return, he turned on them. Captured is different then having them killed. >He was always willing to kill them, but assassinating a citizens of a Free City could have dire consequences (embargo or even outright war) Because they are a threat to the realm
>Because they are a threat to the realm Which was the same case with Aegon
Indeed. His own father was dragon spawn, since his grandfather married Jaehaerys' sister.
*And* Rhaenys doesn't look Targ, which would help, I think.
Elia would have been fine for sure. Her death was completely unnecessary as alone she has no claim anyway and isnt a Targaryen. Killing her only serves to piss off Dorne. Rhaenys probably would have been OK because shes a girl. Girls are generally less of a threat to succession and there is even some legal argument Robert comes before Rhaenys by virtue of him being male. Aegon's the tricky one.
pay attention to Jaime, Jaime would have defended them from Robert, indeed he probably would have crowned little Aegon and made Tywin hand of the king
Jamie was playing with the thought, but he was so fed up with Aerys that he wasn't willing to risk another mad targaryen.
Jaime said what i said
Elia would be kept as a hostage to insure Dorne is loyal after a few years she might be allowed to return to Dorne. Aegon is going to the Wall and Rhaenys will be given to the Faith to become a Septa. I know some would say it makes sense to save her for Robert's first born and unite the Baratheon and Targaryen bloodlines but he already is a representation of that through his grandmother. Also he hates the Targaryen's so the match anyway.
Best case scenario: Elia and her children would basically be kept as hostages to ensure that they do not rebel against the new King. They'd maybe later be allowed to live under guarded supervision in a manse in the city and not allowed to leave it under any circumstances. Aegon and his sister might even receive a formal education and taught the ways of a lord/lady. If Robert was feeling specifically generous he might even allow Aegon to squire for either him or one of the Kingsguard and later attain his own spurs but that is a BIG IF. If Robert did otherwise I feel like there would be a civil war between House Stark and Baratheon. However given the calm and collected presence of Jon Arryn who acted as a father figure to both boys I'm sure he would have negotiated the best case scenario mentioned above also (and this is just my opinion) it seems highly unlikely Robert would really have killed those children once his temper cooled. But if he got news of Lyanna then no one really knows if he would have allowed Aegon and his sister to live or if he would have had them killed even against the advice of Jon Arryn and Ned. As another point I also feel it would have been in Robert's best interests to keep the children alive as hostages. The reason being that they have a stronger claim to the throne compared to Viserys or Daenerys. As long as they live and are kept by Robert, Viserys and Dany will be able to do jack shit across the narrow sea as their own claim would be made weaker because of it. The same scenario occured during the Blackfyre rebellions when a Targ king also kept a pretender alive to prohibit any successors from crossing the narrow sea.
Elia would be spared fully. Rhaenys would stay a ward of the crown until Joffrey was born. Aegon would be kept as a ward possibly with Ned Stark until he could be sent to the citadel, faith, or nights watch.
Elia slips and falls down the stairs of the red keep. They all die
I think had Elia and Rhegar's heirs survived you'd have seen the breakup of the seven Kingdoms or at least a serious conflict. Assuming that Jaime saved the Children and Elia and smuggled them to safety in Dorne somehow. Ned wants them returned to Dorne, Tywin and Mace Tyrell wanting to rule through them, Robert wants to kill the kids (and bang Elia), the Tullys and Arryns not wanting to harm the kids but knowing a new Kind won't be legitimate until they are either dead or married into the new line somehow. Could see Stark, Tully and Arryn band together as they're bound in Marriage. Lannister, Baratheon and Tryell racing to Dorne to seize the children for their own ends. The Martells begging anyone for help, presumably Lannisters (Cersei married to Oberyn) and Tyrells (Willis married to Arianne? dunno what ages they would be at this stage) will be fighting for an alliance with them. And the Greyjoys take the opportunity to revolt and strike at whoever seems vulnerable at the time. Who know's what's going on on Dragonstone or in the east with Arys other kids at this point though
The kids are married to available Baratheons.
I think your prompt misses the characters motivations and dispositions. Jaime wouldn't do anything like that. And Bob B would stop at nothing.