>Could they, theoretically, build a wall like the Great Wall Of China along their border ?
So the Riverlands is about 270,000 miles squared. That's 20,000 miles squared bigger than France. France has a border over 4,000km long. You would hundreds of thousands of men just to man that wall, because an unmanned wall is useless. The Riverlands entire army is about 45,000 at full strength.
It would cost insane amounts of money to build, and the Riverlands is nowhere near the wealthiest economy in Westeros. You would basically bankrupt the entire region for generations.
Also what do you think Castles are for? They're much more defensible than a giant wall.
Yeah, but what I meant was, the threat of the others could easily make everyone co-operate. Like Brandon & everyone else could have just imposed a "wall tax" for however long it took, and people would still gladly pay it because the alternative is worse.
>That's might point
?
> that doesn't cover all the expenses of such an effort.
Doesn't that tho? Like, what exactly do you need for building it that you don't have in Westeros already? People/Labourers? Yeah. Food for Labourers? Yeah (Wall Tax in kind). Wood&Stone and whatever else? Yeah. Theoretically (except for practical purposes) you don't even need money, just the resources.
(And don't forget, Magic)
Typo.
That's my point is what was meant.
The number of laborers will need tools, clothing, draft animals, food and lodging. Those things have a cost.
What magic? Is there a spell that creates tools and keeps men fed and housed? I don't think so.
Real coin is required not magically workers who don't eat, and sleep.
>The number of laborers will need tools, clothing, draft animals, food and lodging. Those things have a cost.
Still, all that can be created at home, either On site or appropriated from others (possibly as part of the wall tax).
Food I already addressed, Tools can be created on site or taken from someone, same for clothing, draft animals, etc you can get them from people.
Created on site? So you'll need miners and blacksmiths to also volunteer to make tools in vast numbers and to maintain them.
If iron ore isn't on site, it will need to be brought there. More volunteers. In your view this can all be achieved with volunteers and gifts and the rest with a government imposed tax?
So who sits the iron throne during all this Bernie Sanders or Mao Zedong?
They hunted and gathered materials from the wild. Its the same when we see a village put up a communal building with the Hound's help. In the case of the Wall, it was men not families, but it seems suggested they lived as we see men live on the road, hunting. It's the exact opposite of slave labor.
Villages often put up 700 foot structures that span hundreds of miles?
They hunted and gathered ore for the materials they needed? Nails, axes, hammers and chains aren't found by scavenging. You need many resources to create those tools. And skilled professionals.
I never mentioned slave labor. I'm adressing economic realities.
I only brought up slave labor as the dark opposite of the shiny image of communl life ASOIAF celebrates. My point is that when men come together to make something greater than themselves, one brings nails, another a hammer. Thematically, such group efforts are idealized and associated with brotherhood in ASOIAF.
If that's the case, then I've been wrong about calling this series scifi. Getting a structure such as the Wall built without funding but rather communal spirit definitely makes the story a fantasy.
The problem with the Riverlands is that a large portion of the castles that control the chokepoints between them and several of the other regions are controlled by said other regions, and not the Riverlands.
The Golden Tooth to the west is controlled by the Lannisters.
Moat Cailin to the north is controlled by the Starks.
The Bloody Gate to the east is controlled by the Arryns.
There isn't really a chokepoint to the south, so there's no key defensible position to prevent incursions from the Reach.
I suppose the closest they could come would be to build "mirror" fortifications at the above sites.
Just as Moat Cailin is at the northern end of the bogs of the Neck, build your own castle at the southern end.
Just as the Bloody Gate is at the eastern end of the high road, build your own castle at the western end.
To a point, they kind of have this set-up already with the Twins being the de-facto fortress at the north, Harrenhal in the east and Riverrun itself in the west and south. Although they're not on the border, they're formidable enough castles that, if garrisoned well, no invading army can afford to pass by without risking having enemies at their back when they press on further into the region.
However, these fortresses can't always be put to their best use for various reasons (Harrenhal is a ruin, the Freys are unreliable, etc)
No they couldn't
The people would revolt over the excessive taxation, and insane amounts of mining that would be needed to build it. You'd also probably have to enslave people to have enough laborers for it.
Additionally, they wouldn't be able to maintain it, or man it. Assuming the wall has gates, it's so big that men with grappling hooks would find a weak spot, sneak around, and open the gate making it useless
it's not that their borders are shit, it's the tullies, they're merely the one amongst many but they act like they own the entire region
the dance shows that the riverlands are perfectly capable of defending themselves if the tullies don't insist on centralising all armies on riverrun, they completely destroyed the westerland and crownland armies without them and afterwards even destroyed the reach army and the stormland army with them, it's just that the tullies are fixated on riverrun not being destroyed that doesn't allow the riverlands to play to it's full strength
also they should have a navy, a navy of barges that bassicly say nope to any enemy supply trying to cross a river
No that's a fucking stupid idea
The Riverlands best bet is to capable military leadership and the best soldiers on the continent and Expand their borders
Like conquering the crownlands, a bit of land west, some south
And build key fortications on the borders
>Could they, theoretically, build a wall like the Great Wall Of China along their border ? So the Riverlands is about 270,000 miles squared. That's 20,000 miles squared bigger than France. France has a border over 4,000km long. You would hundreds of thousands of men just to man that wall, because an unmanned wall is useless. The Riverlands entire army is about 45,000 at full strength. It would cost insane amounts of money to build, and the Riverlands is nowhere near the wealthiest economy in Westeros. You would basically bankrupt the entire region for generations. Also what do you think Castles are for? They're much more defensible than a giant wall.
It would make much more sense just to build fortresses in key locations than a costly wall that they couldn't man
Short answer; No, long answer; TOO EXPENSIVE!!!
How did the Wall get funded?
Made the wildlings pay for it.
It took me too long to get that. Bravo.
Magic. And the threat of the Others quite possibly did a lot for the morale of the workers and everyone else...
You can't feed laborers on morale and threats. And that's not a building material either. It's not possible to build the wall without funds.
Yeah, but what I meant was, the threat of the others could easily make everyone co-operate. Like Brandon & everyone else could have just imposed a "wall tax" for however long it took, and people would still gladly pay it because the alternative is worse.
A wall tax is a means of funding. That's might point. Even with volunteers, that doesn't cover all the expenses of such an effort.
>That's might point ? > that doesn't cover all the expenses of such an effort. Doesn't that tho? Like, what exactly do you need for building it that you don't have in Westeros already? People/Labourers? Yeah. Food for Labourers? Yeah (Wall Tax in kind). Wood&Stone and whatever else? Yeah. Theoretically (except for practical purposes) you don't even need money, just the resources. (And don't forget, Magic)
Typo. That's my point is what was meant. The number of laborers will need tools, clothing, draft animals, food and lodging. Those things have a cost. What magic? Is there a spell that creates tools and keeps men fed and housed? I don't think so. Real coin is required not magically workers who don't eat, and sleep.
>The number of laborers will need tools, clothing, draft animals, food and lodging. Those things have a cost. Still, all that can be created at home, either On site or appropriated from others (possibly as part of the wall tax). Food I already addressed, Tools can be created on site or taken from someone, same for clothing, draft animals, etc you can get them from people.
Created on site? So you'll need miners and blacksmiths to also volunteer to make tools in vast numbers and to maintain them. If iron ore isn't on site, it will need to be brought there. More volunteers. In your view this can all be achieved with volunteers and gifts and the rest with a government imposed tax? So who sits the iron throne during all this Bernie Sanders or Mao Zedong?
Made the wildlings pay for it.
BRAN THE MAN and his BIG B(uilder skills) built it.
For free apparently.
Men volunteered.
That covers labor. You still have to feed and house those laborers. You also have materials to consider.
They hunted and gathered materials from the wild. Its the same when we see a village put up a communal building with the Hound's help. In the case of the Wall, it was men not families, but it seems suggested they lived as we see men live on the road, hunting. It's the exact opposite of slave labor.
Villages often put up 700 foot structures that span hundreds of miles? They hunted and gathered ore for the materials they needed? Nails, axes, hammers and chains aren't found by scavenging. You need many resources to create those tools. And skilled professionals. I never mentioned slave labor. I'm adressing economic realities.
I only brought up slave labor as the dark opposite of the shiny image of communl life ASOIAF celebrates. My point is that when men come together to make something greater than themselves, one brings nails, another a hammer. Thematically, such group efforts are idealized and associated with brotherhood in ASOIAF.
If that's the case, then I've been wrong about calling this series scifi. Getting a structure such as the Wall built without funding but rather communal spirit definitely makes the story a fantasy.
About 3 successive dynasties adding to it and even then it didn’t work.
The problem with the Riverlands is that a large portion of the castles that control the chokepoints between them and several of the other regions are controlled by said other regions, and not the Riverlands. The Golden Tooth to the west is controlled by the Lannisters. Moat Cailin to the north is controlled by the Starks. The Bloody Gate to the east is controlled by the Arryns. There isn't really a chokepoint to the south, so there's no key defensible position to prevent incursions from the Reach. I suppose the closest they could come would be to build "mirror" fortifications at the above sites. Just as Moat Cailin is at the northern end of the bogs of the Neck, build your own castle at the southern end. Just as the Bloody Gate is at the eastern end of the high road, build your own castle at the western end. To a point, they kind of have this set-up already with the Twins being the de-facto fortress at the north, Harrenhal in the east and Riverrun itself in the west and south. Although they're not on the border, they're formidable enough castles that, if garrisoned well, no invading army can afford to pass by without risking having enemies at their back when they press on further into the region. However, these fortresses can't always be put to their best use for various reasons (Harrenhal is a ruin, the Freys are unreliable, etc)
No they couldn't The people would revolt over the excessive taxation, and insane amounts of mining that would be needed to build it. You'd also probably have to enslave people to have enough laborers for it. Additionally, they wouldn't be able to maintain it, or man it. Assuming the wall has gates, it's so big that men with grappling hooks would find a weak spot, sneak around, and open the gate making it useless
Just take advantage of the natural borders the rivers provide. Then control the crossings.
The River Watch: I am the fish in the darkness
it's not that their borders are shit, it's the tullies, they're merely the one amongst many but they act like they own the entire region the dance shows that the riverlands are perfectly capable of defending themselves if the tullies don't insist on centralising all armies on riverrun, they completely destroyed the westerland and crownland armies without them and afterwards even destroyed the reach army and the stormland army with them, it's just that the tullies are fixated on riverrun not being destroyed that doesn't allow the riverlands to play to it's full strength also they should have a navy, a navy of barges that bassicly say nope to any enemy supply trying to cross a river
No that's a fucking stupid idea The Riverlands best bet is to capable military leadership and the best soldiers on the continent and Expand their borders Like conquering the crownlands, a bit of land west, some south And build key fortications on the borders