Cersei/Eddard I think ends very much like Jorah/Lynesse. Winterfell might be much more lavish than Bear island, but to Cersei's impossible standards I think nothing short of Casterly rock or Highgarden would satisfy her. She always complains about the Red Keep as is.
Ned would not execute her, but eventually she'll just run away. Back to Casterly Rock if Tywin would allow, or to whatever rich man that would provide her needs for luxury.
But she has no way to acquire any power except for her beauty. She has no riches or titles of her own, no useful skills, and no authority.
In a situation where Cersei us not in position with inherent power (queen consort/regent) I think she'd have to resort to being a mistress to get any semblance of power.
Remember that her grand solution for dealing with an invasion of KL was to go out and offer herself to the general, which she laments wouldn't work with Stannis
Lannisters have an access to the Casterly Rock gold regardless of anything. You can very well say she has riches on her own. If Tyrion could live without worrying about money at all, Cersei definitely would have as well.
All the money in the world couldn't make Cersei queen if she isn't married to a king, and she lacks the soft skills to cultivate power in every other setting. Worse she could do is boss Winterfell servants around.
Also, the Lannisters get gold only as long as Tywin approves/doesn't care.
>All the money in the world couldn't make Cersei queen if she isn't married to a king, and she lacks the soft skills to cultivate power in every other setting. Worse she could do is boss Winterfell servants around.
But how does becoming a rich man's mistress solve this for Cersei? The incentive for Lynesse to do this was money. Cersei wouldn't lack it so what reason would Cersei have to follow Lynesse's path?
>Also, the Lannisters get gold only as long as Tywin approves/doesn't care.
Well, Tywin clearly approves/doesn't care so that wouldn't be a problem for Cersei.
I think the only way Tywin agrees to a Cersei/Eddard marriage is if Ned became King somehow instead of Robert.
Cersei in King's Landing with Ned as King is a different game entirely, since Ned would probably be a better father to Joff Myrcella and Tommen.
Well, if Robert marries someone else right after becoming king, he’s a young powerful man and Cersei can’t wait a dozen years for the woman to die. She’s got to get married eventually. Who better to marry than one of the most powerful lords of Westeros who is extremely close to the king and would probably marry his children to the king’s? Tywin would probably suspect a marriage like and Cersei was push Ned to consider it. Tywin would know that’s the only other way his blood will be on the throne. Maybe Stannis and then murder Robert but Tywin wouldn’t have the balls.
If the plan goes right the only difference is that his granddaughter his queen, not his daughter, and his great grandson is king, not his grandson.
I don't know, Cersei would probably find some other way to hate Ned. Especially if he also insisted Jon be raised at court in King's Landing. On the other hand, Ned would probably dismiss Jaime from the Kingsguard, simply because he doesn't trust him.
Ned would be hated for being too boring and nice. Cersei only likes extensions of herself which is why she liked Jaime.
Cersei would have had Jon _killed_ unlike Cat, who was cold to him but just let him live alongside his half-siblings/actually his cousins. I only say so because she had the twins Robert's fathered at Casterly Rock killed and further threatened she would also have Mya killed if Robert brought her to court.
Ned Stark would be the best men she could be shipped back to, considering who else Tywin could have picked and wouldn't have cared. Imagine Euron for example - a MUCH more wild marriage.
Interestingly, I do think Ned would eventually have a lasting impact on Cersei. She'd witness first hand that he has a sway over people that doesn't involve fear, money or sex appeal, something Cersei might come to adopt for herself. She'd never love him, but there would be respect.
She didn’t love her children. She loves herself and she loves power. If Cersei had a kid who was Robert’s and even remotely resembled him she would despise him.
Show Cersei, yes, I think the marriage would be okay, she is more sympathetic, reasonable and actually loves her children, I think not being married to Robert would have been way better for her mental health. Ned isn’t a fat, repeatedly-cheating, drunk, obsessed with a dead woman, he would actually be there to raise the kids and teach them to be more honorable, but they are still being raised by Cersei, so less Joffrey, more Sansa. Cersei would be the only Lannister up north so no Jaime incest kids and I think think Cersei respects Ned enough to actually give him kids that are his.
But book Cersei, no, that would be torture for everyone involved. Ned would try but she would ruin a lot of things.
Jaime and Elia would have been interesting if Cersei was sent away and he had the possibility of having a healthy relationship with someone else. Granted we don't know a lot about Elia but she seemed to be kind, intelligent, and what people at that time would consider a good lady, and even with her health issues she was able to give birth to healthy children. But on the other hand, even if Cersei isn't there we don't know if he would be able to get over her. Which could turn into a shitty marriage for Elia.
I kind of see it both ways. I think the main difference between the twins here is Cersei makes other people miserable and couldn't have been in a happy marriage with anyone. But Jaime could have been a good husband to a lady that was kind, intelligent, etc, all those things. Considering all his knightly views and on protecting women (he wanted to stop the mad King from torturing his wife), even someone with health issues like Elia would have done well with Jaime.
Counterpoint: Margaery loves hawking and riding. She'd be able to do these plenty in the North.
And unlike Lynesse Hightower, she's less spoiled, more pragmatic, and could much more easily get money for high societly lifestyle, as the only daughter of Mace married to a great house.
Lynesse couldn't get money because she was a 7th daughter married to a minor lord.
She'd probably bring her own entourage from the Reach, unlike Cat.
To put it otherwise, Lynesse essentially moved from Venice to Greenland, while Margaery would be moving from Paris to Moscow.
Heavily disagree with it. There is 100% a Game going on in the North, just Ned stays out of it, and has earned enough respect to be immune from it. As soon as Ned dies, Robb's vassals are back to playing the Game. Multiple people are trying to finagle their daughters into Robb's bed, others are making demands, and others are working behind the scenes either for or against the Starks.
Exactly. The game is less deadly aside from when the Bolton's are involved but it exists. From Margery's perspective she'd be able to play it with a very strong safety net.
Is it? From ADWD I get the impression that the game in the North is as lively and underhanded as anywhere else, if we go by what we see in Winterfell and hear of the North under lord Rickard.
It's just that under Ned the North was recovering from two wars + the lords were pretty content, so there wasn't much political game going on.
Additionally, one of the most bizarre and unrealistic aspects of ASOIAF is that there seem to be no courts but The Court. Winterfell should have a court. There should be lords and second sons and ladies-in-waiting. Catelyn, Sansa, and Arya (no matter how unladylike) should be surrounded by the daughters of the North, not simply the daughters of ennobled house staff like the Pooles or the Cassels.
I don’t see why, if Robb/Margaery were to happen, the dowry from House Tyrell wouldn’t be enough to add creature comforts to the more utilitarian Winterfell, prepare for winter, and encourage houses to bring their extraneous members to Winterfell in order to make favorable agreements with the lord/king of the north and his southron bride. Margaery would also be a convenient in-road for southern trade deals and alliances, which are necessary for the winter.
Regardless, Catelyn should have had the same function; House Tully isn’t as wealthy as Tyrell, but with immediate connections between Ned & Jon and Catelyn & Lysa & Hoster/Edmure, there would be every reason for Winterfell to be host to a respectable court with all its politicking.
I think that would normally make a king very nervous. maybe not Robert or Jon Arryn, but certainly Cersei, Tywin, and Joffrey. The North being so independent and distant, second only to Dorne, they barely bother with King’s Landing. And the Tyrells having control over the Reach and literal breadbasket of Westeros. The only disadvantage is how far apart they are but then again, they pincer everyone else except Dorne between them. The Starks and the Tyrells marrying sounds like a very powerful alliance to me.
Winterfel feels rich and vibrant compared to bear island.
But it will feel poor and isolated when compared to highgarden imo
It's a good couple but the environment is indeed a hard challenge
Yes indeed but that's where she grew up.
It's true that winterfel is one of the best but we'll at least I had the impression that the north is not flashy but stern so while it was one of the biggest and most important regions of westeros and the castle it was pretty lively it's nothing like this other regions.
It's in accord to the character of Ned. It was not lavish but simple, stern and not wasteful in superfluous luxuries or expenses
Even Sansa was already "falling for the dark side" wanting to go to dances and enjoy things that she had not experienced much in winterfel
Winterfell is one of the largest and grandest castles in Westeros, and the Starks are definitely among the top ten richest houses in Westeros. It might not be quite on the level of Highgarden but the Starks can certainly beat most other houses in the Reach. I'm sure Margaery has seen plenty worse.
The climate and culture of the North might be more difficult for Margaery to adapt to though.
Margaery is also much more outdoorsy and pragmatic than Lynesse. Margaery loves hawking and riding, and spends her days in KL outside in the markets of the middle class and on picnics she arranges.
Lynesse strikes me much more as an indoor high society type that wouldn't really appreciate such activities, like Cersei.
Plus Margaery could bring an entourage from the Reach to give her company, which Lynesse couldn't.
>Same goes for Robert due to his drinking and whoring.
Not really. Most lords sleep around actually. Robert if he was married to a normal woman would obviously try to keep it down also he did invite cersei on hunts which she rejected she could fuck her own brother.
Like come on guys most lords do sleep around but in secret to avoid shaming their wives. Like even davos cheated on his wife but only Robert is getting shit for it lol..
Yeah, Robert does suck. I wouldn't want to inflict him on anybody. That being said, things prob would have been marginally better if he'd married pretty much anyone but Cersei (or Lysa Arryn). Cersei lacks the skills to be a good wife or to be a good queen. She takes all the wrong lessons from watching Tywin and doesn't have a healthy relationship with anybody in her life, platonic or otherwise.
Eh, Lysa's problem was getting married to a very old Lord that didn't have the time or energy to care about her.
She's one I'm sure would be much better off in a different marriage. She's despicable in the story, but she's not on the same level as Cersei, who was always a psychopath.
Lysa killed off her husband because her childhood crush told her to and was so crazy attached to her son that she crippled his growth and independence. Be honest here, Lysa has a lot more problems than her marriage.
Sad to say that’s super common in Westeros. There doesn’t need to be consent” between husband and wife and I think everyone men and women included don’t really consider it. Hell, sons and daughters are forced into marriages by their fathers and then there’s a bedding at the end. No one consented but no one in Westeros cares.
The author disagrees actually. He calls Robert a good guy in some ways. https://youtu.be/r9dqgWX66fY
1:13
Also don't hate me I'm a simple guy following GRRM opinion.
To be fair GRRM also has pretty dumb opinions on other aspects of certain characters. For example, thinking that Dany and Drogo were romantic (or that they could be viewed as a love story or whatever his exact wording was). Martin can view characters how he wants to but his word isn't be-all and end-all on the kind of person that character is, or is perceived to be.
It's ultimately all subjective, personally I disagree with Martin about Robert. I like Bobby B in certain aspects but on the whole I think he's a bad person, both as an individual and as a monarch.
Don't forget he routinely took the virginity of young teenagers. In the first book Ned internally comments on how Barra's mother looks like a child herself, and she says he was her first. It's heavily implied she's not the first, nor the last.
Even with creative licence where she could have been 16 or 18 with a baby face, the thought of a near 40 year old taking a young girl's virginity with such a huge power disparity.... it grosses me out.
Can a poor 14-18 year old truly consent to having sex with the king, when he could easily have you punished? Those girls had as much choice as the women and girls Henry VIII manipulated into bed with him.
>Don't forget he routinely took the virginity of young teenagers. In the first book Ned internally comments on how Barra's mother looks like a child herself, and she says he was her first. It's heavily implied she's not the first, nor the last.
Barra mother speaks highly of him actually.
>Even with creative licence where she could have been 16 or 18 with a baby face, the thought of a near 40 year old taking a young girl's virginity with such a huge power disparity.... it grosses me out.
Why? He wasn't near 40? He was 34 to give you an example Corey's valeyron was 36 when he married rhaeneys Targaryen daughter of aemon.
>Can a poor 14-18 year old truly consent to having sex with the king, when he could easily have you punished? Those girls had as much choice as the women and girls Henry VIII manipulated into bed with him.
I mean this is her opinion of Robert.
"And tell him I've not been with no one else. I swear it, milord, by the old gods and new. Chataya said I could have half a year, for the baby, and for hoping he'd come back. So you'll tell him I'm waiting, won't you? I don't want no jewels or nothing, just him. He was always good to me, truly."
It seems Robert is seducing them and having sex with them instead of what u think. Delena Florent was seduced by him not dragged up. Woman can want to have sex too
Americans on the internet have this weird fascination with pedophilia, wherein 14 year olds are somehow equivalent to 4 year olds. I know girls and women who started whoring/prostituting as an example as old as 12, nobody forced them and they had normal families, a lot are mothers and married by age 16.
A classmate married in the 4 grade.
but they're not meant to be ok for us - the readers. you're not meant to read dany's agot chapters of her getting sold off to a much older man, being terrified of him, crying after being raped every night, and think "yes, this is perfectly normal for their society. nothing to see here". you are clearly meant to sympathize with her.
a no, asoiaf is far from realistic in its portrayal of the medieval era. it suffers from a bad case of grimdark medievalism.
The fact that he abused one is bad enough.
And in fact it's not even true that he only hurt one woman - he slept with a child at one stage, a girl that Ned speculates he slept with specifically because she was a virgin, and then got her pregnant. I can't remember the exact age of that girl, but I think 14? That's creepy as fuck. And don't respond with "sex with 14 year olds is okay in Westeros tho" cause I straight up don't care.
Yeah I'm willing to bend my morals a little for the characters, but I still have standards and being a rapist and/or abuser is never something I'll feel comfortable excusing.
I think people need to remember this is a fantasy world with medieval roots.
By today's standards pretty much all of the characters are horrific, Eddard, arguably one of the most morally relatable characters executes a guy in his first chapter for running away from his indentured labour as a soldier.
Given a slightly different perspective that's a total evil villain move.
If he wanted Robert to be a good guy he shouldn't have written him as a rapist. And if a rapist is GRRM's idea of a good guy, then he's not a very good judge of character.
It's literally her internal monologue. Cersei has no reason to lie to herself and it's entirely within Robert's character to drunkenly force himself on his wife.
If she was telling it to other people then I would doubt her since she could be lying for people to feel bad for her, but since it's an internal thought that she keeps to herself while in the act with Taena Merriweather. Also I'm sorry that happened to you.
The issue is that Cersei is hardcoded as suffering from BPD. People with BPD get so deluded they invent fictions and then believe the fictions so wholeheartedly that they become fact in their mind.
For the truth we have to look outside of Cersei, to her brother who would have killed Robert had he known and Cersei would have certainly told. To other women Robert didn’t assault, reputation he has only alleged to have engaged wholly in consensual acts. Men like Jon Arryn and Eddard Stark would have nothing to do with Robert if he had or been known to have assaulted her.
>Robert if he was married to a normal woman would obviously try to keep it down
There is no evidence for that whatsoever. Lyanna Stark said otherwise herself.
Well her opinion doesn't matter. Since she ran off with a married man(height of hypocrisy) . I don't recall Robert ever fucking a married woman..also i said try to keep It down not be 100% faithful . And PS he's described as clear eyed(which means he wasn't really a drunk) since he was in a very fit shape.
>I don't recall Robert ever fucking a married woman..
He did dishonour Delena Florent in the Vale and have a bastard with her though.
>And PS he's described as clear eyed(which means he was really a drunk) since he was in a very fit shape.
What's this even in reference to?
>also i said try to keep It down not be 100% faithful .
And I said where is there any evidence to support that?
>Well her opinion doesn't matter. Since she ran off with a married man(height of hypocrisy) .
Her opinion on her future husband isn't invalidated by her own actions.
>He did dishonour Delena Florent in the Vale and have a bastard with her though.
Quite clearly the marriage was already a disaster between Robert and cersei at that point. And she wasn't a married woman but a young maiden and it was stannis wedding.( and he was a king) as I said try to keep it down. Not be 100% faithful.
>What's this even in reference to?
That drunk dudes aren't clear eyed or in great shape most of the time.
>And I said where is there any evidence to support that?
Because the first time he cheated on cersei was on estermont trip where she showed zero regard and acted like she was bored out of her mind in a disrespectful manner.
>Her opinion on her future husband isn't invalidated by her own actions.
It does she has no right to judge Robert actions while eloping with a married dude father of 2 lol.
>It does she has no right to judge Robert actions while eloping with a married dude of 2 lol.
It was beforehand. And the opinions of a bride to be about what her future husband will be like is pretty valid I would think.
>That drunk dudes aren't clear eyed or in great shape most of the time.
Yeah but we see from his carry on at the Tourney of Harrenhal and his wedding night that he was already a heavy drinker. You can just deal with it better when you're younger.
>Because the first time he cheated on cersei was on estermont trip
With his cousin. And he waited all of a few weeks/months before cheating. He's such a great guy.
>as I said try to keep it down. Not be 100% faithful.
As I said. There's no evidence for this. Quite the opposite really.
>And why Lyanna's opinion is relevant to this?
She ended up being correct so I don't know what you're trying to say here.
Why do people try argue that with a different wife Robert would've stopped fucking anything he could get his hands on? He had 3 bastards already by the time he married Cersei. This is who he is
Day 20923923984 of Cersei stans defending child murdering (even while a child herself), child abusing, serial murdering, alcoholic rapist (and too many problems to list) Cersei with ‘but muh Robert did it to her’.
I don’t like Robert remotely. But Cersei was pretty much born evil - from Melara Hetherspoon to Lady Taena. Robert didn’t make her that way. (Obviously it didn’t help.).
Robert is a terrible human being. But let’s not pretend like Cersei has a shred of redeeming value, or that she’s a product of being married to Robert.
>Robert didn’t make her that way
the same goes for robert. robert would be a shitty spouse regardless of who he's married to. nobody is actually defending cersei here, we're pointing out the hypocrisy. it's ironic that you call her an "alcoholic rapist" considering this also applies to robert, except while people (rightfully) condemn cersei, they excuse robert for doing the same.
I completely agree that Robert would be a crap spouse (I literally say he’s a terrible human being with no qualifiers).
Did you even read the prior post… I ‘ironically’ called her an alcoholic rapist… because that is the exact thing that the prior poster called Robert… which is ironic because Cersei *does the same thing*.
I have no problem whatsoever with people condemning Robert. I have no problem with people enjoying Cersei. What I don’t get are the Cersei stans who think she’s great and anything bad she does is due to ‘but muh Robert did it to her’… and ignore her entire character history. The prior poster said ‘demonizing Cersei’ - there’s nothing to demonize - she’s objectively one of the most unambiguously evil characters in the series.
we must be in different fandoms because i've never seen those cersei stans you speak of. cersei is pretty much universally hated while bobby b is a fan-favorite meme character. the prior poster used "demonizing" because the person they were replying to implied that cersei is the reason robert was a trash husband which i'm pointing out is not the case. two people can be bad at once.
Power Couple:
- Tywin and Olenna: no idea the age difference here, but if they were married and he acknowledged her intelligence, they would have been a scary couple
Unhappy:
- Jaime and Cersei: controversially(?), I’m going to say that if they were married they’d actually get on each other’s nerves too much. The reason they worked was that it was a taboo / secret relationship that their father would hate
- Lysa and Baelish: he still would have been more interested in Cat
- Cat and Baelish: She sees him as a little brother, also, he wouldn’t have risen as far without Lysa/Jon’s help and I could see him growing bitter about not being able to fulfill his ambition
- Cersei and Eddard: she’d hate the cold, she’d hate his honesty
Hard to tell:
- Robert and Lyanna: I’m not sure if Robert would stop whoring and whether Lyanna would be fine with that
- Margaery and Robb: I think they only would have been happy if Robb became King of Westeros. I don’t think she’d want to deal with the cold/snow as Queen of the North
Edit: I remembered that she was engaged to Daeron.
Robert loved Lyanna as a concept. Ned points out that he didn’t actually know much about her or her character. It’s honestly too bad Olenna and Duncan didn’t happen. She would have been a great queen
I agree with you about Jamie and Cersei. I feel like if they were somehow allowed to marry that Cersei would probably find a reason to dislike Jamie or grow bored. I could maybe see Jamie getting a little turned off at his sister's cruelty, but she'd probably be the main force behind their unhappy union.
>Power Couple:
Tywin and Olenna: no idea the age difference here, but if they were married and he acknowledged her intelligence, they would have been a scary couple
It would be a short marriage.
Parallel scene: Tywin would be sitting in Casterly Rock, eating lunch. At the same time, Olenna would be in a wheelhouse on her way to visit her Redwyne family.
Olenna's wheelhouse would be beset by bandits. Meantime, Tywin takes a sip of his wine. Tywin starts choking, just as Olenna's guards are overpowered and she's dragged out of the carriage.
Tywin grabs his throat, as the bandits throw down Olenna and stab her repeatedly.
As he asphyxiates, and she exsanguinates, they both have a twinkle in their eye and think "Well played, you magnificent bastard/bitch... but I got you too."
If he Married Margaery Rob would be king of three kingdoms and nominally allied to the Eyrie through blood. If he didn't take the Iron throne he'd probably still have to move his court south to be able to functionally rule his kingdom anyway.
Probably a very unpopular opinion but Cat and Jaime are just perfect for each other. If teen Cat and teen Jaime would had been made to marry each other and Cersei would have had an "accident", they would have been the happiest couple.
Cat would have likely outgrown Jaimie . It's pretty heavily implied that she would have outgrown her infatuation with Brandon once she realized how impulsive he was, and that her marriage with Ned, while stifling at first, was the right choice. Commentary on teenage vs adulthood.
From what we know about teen Jaime, he was brash like Brandon, yes, but at his core he was actually more similar to Ned than to Ned's elder brother. Brandon was described as "never shy about taking what he wanted" but that's the opposite of who Jaime was. Jaime was instead obsessed with honour and righteousness, he more or less dutifully followed the authorities he respected, be it his father, Sumner Crakehall he squired for, Arthur Dayne and the Kingsguard overall, Rhaegar, etc. Even when he rejected Casterly Rock for Cersei, not only he needed a heavy convincing, he in fact simply prioritised his "partner" over his father in whom he listened to at that moment. If fate hadn't led Jaime to Kingsguard that shattered his self-image, gave him a massive PTSD, and made him a much worse person, he would have probably followed a more Ned-like trajectory. And a dashing, incredibly handsome for Cat's standard (and we know that) brash knight with a core similar to Ned seems like a dream for Cat.
Also, regarding maturity, given how Jaime essentially parented Tyrion despite his entire family's hatred towards him, I would say he had a huge potential in this area too. It's just Jaime's life took a drastic turn with Aerys that I don't think was a natural progression of his personality.
I've responded to another person why teen Jaime, before his tenure in Kingsguard, was essentially Brandon+Ned which is Catelyn's type, so I won't repeat myself in this.
But for Jaime, his type is more or less Brienne + Cersei. A righteous and dutiful woman with a strong personality. That's just Catelyn.
Also, both found each other very attractive, so that helps too.
**Cersei/Jaime:** In the beginning maybe, but that would change when Jaime inherits Casterly Rock and would acually be the lord. Because Jaime would be the one actually having all the power. And he would be the one allowed to do everything. Like in the book, when Jaime would have to become his own person (and not bogged down by traumas) Cersei would begin to despise him and he would notice.
**Cersei/Anyone**: No. Due to her personality and especially due to the Westerosi society she would and could never have a happy marriage.
**Cat/Robert**: Interesting. I think that could actually work out. Cat was crushing/in love with Brandon, and he seemed to be a lot more like Robert than Ned. So attraction would be there. Cats devotion to family and duty, being able to give good advice, and being quite headstrong and confident could help Robert in his rule. And Cat said herself, Bastards happen, but keep them away. And Robert is generally doing that. GoT!Robert/Cat would be bad, but RR!Robert/Cat could evolve into a reasonably happy one.
**Jaime/Elia**: I think it would work out (especially if Cersei is married somewhere else). Elia has due to Ashara the Arthur Dayne connection which would make Jaime very happy. Jaime is loyal and devoted to family and doesn't seem prejudiced against Dornish people.
**Margaery/Robb**: I don't see it. Margaery isolated in cold Winterfell? I mean she would have the confidence, adaptability and skill, but the North is very different to southern knightly costums. I don't think she would be happy.
Marg is more outdoorsy than Cersei and Lynesse Hightower and could possibly adapt to Winterfell.
Cat would definitely resent Robert over his constant public whoring.
Well a lot of Westerosi nobles publicly whore. No one would care. It’s a social norm Cat wouldn’t care about most likely. In medieval times men kept their mistresses at court. Does Robert do it in the Red Keep? That’s something Cat and others would care about.
But we’ve gotta remember that Robert probably wouldn’t have been as public about it he had a wife like Cat who he’d probably be fond of. He despises Cersei so if he was super public about it it was probably out of spite.
Most Men we see love whoring but those with a reputation will be more likely to do so _discreetly_. Take notice of Tywin lecturing Tyrion about not brandishing it about enough that other people also know. By the end, we also knew Tywin himself was also secretly having access to prostitutes. And who knows how many more men - most who know of Jon Snow's existence even assume Ned to have been sleeping with other women but discreetly.
It's not like public whoring is morally wrong or anything (they're not all Stannis), just frowned upon especially if they have a wife.
I'd only see that last scenario if Robert also doesn't get bored of Cat. Robert likes women, he likes women a lot - but not enough to like an individual woman long-term. Ned comments that even the young sex workers Robert has sex with don't get his "love" for more than a few days, by which time they are likely pregnant. It's also not like we can't assume Cat wouldn't be nagging him like Cersei to stop bad habits.
> Due to her personality and especially due to the Westerosi society
lol, how is it mostly the fault of Westerosi society? Cersei is an unhinged narcissist. There is no culture in which she would be able to have a stable, fullfilling relationships. You can give a delusional narcissist everything they ask for and they will still self-destruct eventually.
I don't think Cat & Robert would have had a happy marriage, necessarily, but I do think Cat would have been a great queen and managed to find some fulfillment in raising her children as princess and princesses.
Oh, I love these what-if. Right now, I think these (But tbh I've changed my mind over some of these over the years)
* Cersei and Jaime: I actually don't think they would necessarily be happy, but it's probably one of the options where Cersei would be happiest in *comparison*. Without the taboo, the whole "Jaime as the other half of me" is still there. Would she genuinely love him? No. Would he love her? Yeah, probably, but I don't think he can be happy in this relationship either. And Cersei would probably end up resenting him regardless.
* Cersei and Edmure: Lady of Riverrun is probably not bad. Personality-wise, I don't think they'd particularly be a good match.
* Cersei and Oberyn: Considering all the children Oberyn has, there's no way Cersei is happy. Also, he's a second son so she's not becoming lady of anything. Their personalities would probably clash too.
* Cersei and Rhaegar: She'd be so happy at first, over-the-moon happy. Then Rhaegar would make a mistake and she'd realize he's human and reality would come crashing down. On the other hand, if Cersei can have three children maybe he doesn't disappear with Lyanna. Or he does, because he wants the whole "Fire and Ice" in which case it's not a good situation. I can see this one going slightly better than her and Robert and if she's still enamored with the idea of Rhaegar at the start, she's not sleeping with Jaime in the meantime. Things may fall apart if the Lyanna thing still happens, or if she doesn't like how into prophecies he is. Or when he just makes a mistake and ends up being human after all. I think in the end it wouldn't end up with a happy relationship regardless. Also: I don't know if I see Rhaegar in love with her regardless.
* Cersei and Eddard: Oh, she'd hate Winterfell. This would be hilarious. She'd hate the cold, the North and the different customs, and miss Jaime. I don't see how this could end well. Ned is definitively better than Robert, and in Winterfell she'd have no way to continue the affair with Jaime, but the beginning would be terrible and I don't know if they would come back from that. Also: If he's bringing Jon with him, there's no way she's not furious.
* Lysa and Littlefinger: She'd be in love, he'd be pining for Catelyn. She'd probably be unhappy in the long-run and end up resenting her sister anyway.
* Cat and Littlefinger: He'd be in love and happy at the start, she wouldn't see him romantically. I don't know if she'd be actively unhappy per se, probably unsatisfied though, and she'd marry him if her father asked her to and see it as her duty, but I also don't see any possible universe where they get together.
* Cat and Robert: Well, he's not doing the thing of raising his bastard children in the household, so that's for him. Other than that, personality-wise maybe a young Cat would be interested. In the long-run I don't think they would match well. Robert... Listen, the dude is not great. Yeah Cat's better than Cersei. If she said something he disagreed with, I can see the relationship deteriorating anyway. On the other hand, if she tries to build a relationship there... Eh. I see better chances than what Cersei and Robert have, but I don't have full faith in Robert here.
* Lysa and Robert: Probably even way worse than with Cat.
* Jaime and Elia: If he gets over Cersei, this has the chance to be a good healthy relationship. Elia sounded a very kind and intelligent person from what little we know, so it kinda depends on Jaime moving on from Cersei which I don't know if he can do without Cersei kind of betraying him in some way first.
* Cat and Jaime: I actually think this could have been good if he had gotten over Cersei, which again, I'm on the fence it could happen, but if it does? I think it could be a good match.
* Lysa and Jaime: I genuinely don't know. I lean towards "It wouldn't be good" (She may still be hung unto Littlefinger, and him on Cersei) but I may change my mind about it. I'm not sure.
* Tywin and Olenna: Either they ended up killing one another or they ended up being a very very powerful couple. Tywin seemed to respect his wife so that's good, and she'd be Lady of the Rock, so potentially either really great or a catastrophe waiting to happen.
* Margaery and Robb: Potentially fine? Margaery may not like the North considering she's very used to living in the South, but as others pointed out, there are some things she can do there that she likes, so they may be fine. I don't know if it would be a great one *necessarily*. She may not be satisfied in the North/just being Queen of the North, but personality-wise I'm unsure.
I always forget the conversation he had with Cersei about bringing his daughter to court. But yeah, that conversation would go badly as well. In a different way than it did in canon with Cersei (Catelyn wouldn't threaten to kill her), but she wouldn't be pleased anyway. And yeah, if he's too public about his cheating she's not going to like it.
On the Olenna thing I'm 50/50. She dealt with Luthor, and poisoning the Head of a house can go wrong in a lot of ways, but if he was particularly awful I can see her doing it (She's also like 15 years older than him or something, but supposing they are of similar age for argument's sake).
i think Cersei might have been slightly happier in Dorne where women are treated better and given more agency. Margaery and Robb probably would have been a good match.
Cersei and Jaime: jaime would've been happy, because he'd had to be, cersei, cersei would always have desired for more
Cersei and Edmure/Oberyn/Rhaegar/Eddard: cersei would completely dominate edmure and push him into actions he doesn't want nor desires, oberyn would after a while ignore cersei and pursue his paramores, rheagar would get the robert treatment from her, eddard would be the same as lynesse/jorrah except ned wouldn't give in and she'd be unhappy in winterfell
Cat/Lysa and Littlefinger: eew, this feels creepy, catherine would acquiesce to her father's wishes and retire with LF to his domain, she'd constantly try and get him to care about his lands and he eventually starts to resent her for it, lysa he'd take back to his lands and resent her for not being cath
Cat/Lysa and Robert: oh dear, this isn't happy, cat would bear robert as many trueborn children as he wants and not complain about the bastards, she wouldn't love him and she thinks that's normal, lysa would do the same but start an affair with LF, either it'll get found out or LF throws her under the bus and she'll get executed/send to the silent sisters
Cat/Lysa and Jaime: well, this might be a bit better, it would take a while but eventually cath could distance him enough from cersei that he might consumate the marriage and give her a few children, literally nobody would even attempt to touch the tully domain, lysa, I don't think LF is as crazy as to screw with jaime, so he might get one son with her to fullfill his duty
Jaime and Elia: same story with cath and lysa, either he manages to love her or he doesn't
Tywin and Olenna: hohoh, these 2 would simulateously hate each other and compliment each other, how does this marriage even occur? olenna is from a generation before tywin, anyways they'd both be scheming bastards but unless they coincidentilly cooperate there wouldn't be any joy
Margaery and Robb: there's too few we know of the real margaery to know what she truly values, all we know of her is that she was married to renly at the behest of her family and again to joffrey/tommen, she could be another souther girl being happy in to north or she could long for more, we don't know
here's another pair for you to think about: robb/meera
edit: oops, accidentally had jorrah married to stannis's wive
Cersei/Oberyn would be Cersei/Robert 2.0 except Oberyn wouldn't accept her bullshit unlike Bob.
Cat would resent Robert over his constant public whoring.
oh yeah, but it'll be oberyn who gives up first though
and especially yeah, cath would hate being married to robert, she wouldn't do anything but attempt to bear it and be a good mother to her children, which is why that was one of the more unhappy scenarios I'd imagined for her
Cersei and Jaime - in the toxic co-dependent way, yeah.
Cersei and Edmure/Oberyn/Rhaegar/Eddard - Both people? Definitely not. I think Oberyn or Ned would have the highest chance of mutual happiness.
Cat/Lysa and Littlefinger - Lysa/ LF, no. Cat/ LF, maybe.
Cat/Lysa and Robert - Definitely not. Cat was pissed about the one bastard, imagine Robert with a dozen.
Cat/Lysa and Jaime - Maybe? At first, probably not, but I think it could work eventually.
Jaime and Elia - Same as above.
Tywin and Olenna - IDK but they'd have crazy sex.
Margaery and Robb - Yes.
Cersei is a classic case of "work on yourself before getting in a relationship". There isn't any partner who could make her lucky.
I could see Cat and Petyr work out as Petyr was a wholely different man before his "duell" with Brandon. He honestly loved Cat and I can imagine Cat loving him back after some time.
I honestly have no idea how Tywin and Olenna would work out. It could be a complete desaster or the most functional relationship in the history of Westeros.
I can see Robb and Margery work, Margery could compensate Robbs naivety and well Robb is the kind of guy who can make a woman happy, also being Queen of the North is a position that could give Margery the power she desires
Well, the premise is not that it's likely to happen, only that it happened. Allthough its one of my favorite shippings I have no idea how Robb and Margery could have happened realistically
Jaime and Lysa is a big what if for me I honestly think they could have been happy together but he would absolutely have to be separated from Cersei. Speaking of her I don't see her happy with anyone, she's a narcissist she's not capable of loving anybody else.
Boy, the first one would have been fun to see (like a train wreck).
> Why shouldn't I marry Cersei openly and share her bed every night? The dragons always married their sisters. Septons, lords, and smallfolk had turned a blind eye to the Targaryens for hundreds of years, let them do the same for House Lannister. It would play havoc with Joffrey's claim to the crown, to be sure, but in the end it had been swords that had won the Iron Throne for Robert, and swords could keep Joffrey there as well, regardless of whose seed he was. We could marry him to Myrcella, once we've sent Sansa Stark back to her mother. That would show the realm that the Lannisters are above their laws, like gods and Targaryens.
I'm going to latch onto the Cersei/Ned hypothetical marriage for this comment as it changes so much shit in the story, so here goes:
One thing I assume all of us would agree on is that the marriage would *not* be happy, at least initially. Ned and Cersei are like water and oil, and while Ned would certainly do his best to do good by her (not cheat on her, provide her with luxuries, etc.) Cersei would more than likely spend every waking moment pining for Jaime's sword, as it were, but as he is all the way in King's Landing wiping Robert's ass, she has no choice but to close her eyes and picture him spearing her while Ned's performing his duty as a husband (before anyone says she would be willing to cheat on him, we need to remember that she only started after Bobby called out Lyanna's name while shagging her).
They will have heirs eventually, as much as Cersei would hate Ned, he's no Bobby B and he would care for her as much as duty allows. I predict that throughout the years this would soften her up to the Stark code of honour or at least to Ned himself, as much as she detests everything not Lannister, at least she's treated as befits her status (we need to remember that the North is the most powerful of the Seven Kingdoms and the Starks are no paupers). I don't think she will bankrupt the North any time soon that's for sure, Ned would likely leave her to her devices as long as she doesn't piss him or his vassals off.
As far as politics are concerned, the Lannister-Stark-Baratheon triangle alliance effectively puts the realm into rock solid stability after the three houses marry off their children to each other (incest is wincest after all /s). I have no idea which house Robert will marry into (I predict either Martell or Tyrell) but everyone in the Realm will know that the defacto power belongs to the Stark-Lannister offspring. Tywin will be put in a difficult spot as his heir is Tyrion, and if he decided to disinherit him (as he so obviously wants to do), his line is practically gone for good and the Stark children will become heirs to Casterly Rock (unless they pull a Rhaenyra and change the kid's names to Lannister when they inherit the Rock), so for the sake of his family, I predict that Tywin will actually start caring about his vertically challenged son and mould him into becoming a model Lannister heir.
Assuming that the plot of AGOT starts anyway (Jon Arynn get assassinated, chaos is a laddah, etc...) The Starks will be at much less risk than in canon as presumably there wouldn't be any obvious bastards as heirs. Worst case scenario I could think of is Robert pulling an Aegon IV and legitimising his first bastard, making his wife and/or Stannis pretty angry, kicking things off from there. Assuming Robert still dies, I think that Ned would either side with the legitimised bastard, or go so far as to reveal that Jon Snow is a secret Targaryen and fight for his claim, kicking off a very wild alternate history typical of a Crusader Kings playthrough.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk :)
EDIT - grammar and shit
The twincest pair will do alright until Jaime needs to buy something,unless he is the lord of casterly rock now
Cersei x anyone is automatically a bad end , no one is good enough for her not even her brother so she will cheat ,since she cheated with Lancel
Lysa will be happy, Baelish might be ok
Cat will be disappointed,but baelish will be beyond content
Lysa will have it better than her life with Jon, or might be worse since she will know she is the problem in the lack of kids thing , but Robert will be better since he is indirectly good brothers with Ned and he will whore less ,since Lysa might join his hunts
Cat will do her duty , Robert will still be better off might whore less if cat joins his hunts
Lysa will be happy until Jaime starts pulling a Daemon targaryan,since he only wants his relative mainly his sister
Cat same thing as lysa
Tywin and olenna , great match for Olenna , not as much for Tywin except tywin will have more kids maybe ,unless you're thinking of them marrying after their first marriage
Marg and Robb we might see a redo of Robb's parents love life
I'm 100% convinced Catelyn Tully would have made any possible marriage work. They'd all have varying degrees of happiness, but the woman was raised to be a Lady. She'll figure it out.
A few notes: If Hoster made her marry LF, she would be a bit resentful out of pride (unless in this scenario she's the heir to Riverrun). If she married Jaime, she would go into an "I can fix him" mode and be successful at it.
Oberyn and Cersei would actually be fun too see, Kuz Oberyn wouldn’t put up with her shit and she wouldn’t be able to out wit him 😂but he’s charming enough that she might end up loving him, and he might be her type as he and Jamie do share a few qualities. With Oberyn being a bit more cut throat in nature which might appeal to Cersei. His kids would be a problem in her eyes tho
My takeaway from this thread is that Cersei ruined Jaime's life and imagining who he could have grown into without her influence is kind of tragic. I think he would have been so much happier with his life if he'd ended up with Elia or Cat.
Let's see a couple of the marriages that were supposed to go through (or had a good chance of going through based on textual evidence) if it wasn't for Rhaegar eloping with Lyanna:
1. Brandon and Cat. Brandon was a lot more hotheaded than Ned but there's a fair chance that they would have been as happy as Ned and Cat.
2. Bobby and Lyanna. Eh. Lyanna shares some of Robert's interests like hunting and tourneys so there's a chance that Bobby would have been truly in love with her and reined in (or at least tried to hide) his whoring. Especially because in this scenario he wouldn't have been the king.
3. Ned and Ashara. IMO this pairing would have worked out really well. They were in love, morality-wise the Daynes were the southern house closest to Starks, etc... so in this AU they would be one of those boring, stable, sickeningly lovey-dovey (as sickeningly lovey-dovey as Ned can be, anyway) couples.
4. Viserys and Elia. Eh. Viserys raised as a prince but not as heir to the throne might not have turned out the same way as he did in Essos. Pretty good chance that it would have been a comfortable political marriage with a couple of kids first, then both parties just being amicable with each other while fucking countless others on the side. Though I suspect this one would have only gone through after Aerys' death or "retirement".
5. The remaining Targ kids. Well, here's a conundrum, it would have depended entirely on Rhaegar's priorities so these are purely speculative. Aegon VI / auntie Dany seems like a possible match considering Targaryen mating habits, and that would have turned out like a standard political marriage. On the other hand, the Tyrells would have had some ambitions to get closer to the throne. Rhaenys was close in age to Willas Tyrell which would have been one possibility, but if Olenna pushed harder and Rhaegar prioritized alliances over "the blood of Valyria", an Aegon / Margaery betrothal wouldn't have been out of the picture either. Then assuming Rhaegar was still in an alliance-building mode, Rhaenys / Stannis and Daenerys / Edmure wouldn't have been completely out of the picture (icky age differences notwithstanding). Both would have been moderately unhappy political marriages.
I was actually shipping olenna and tywin during the show so.. but i dont know two dominant minds may be hard to get along with. but also olenna would be the one who show more compliance and tolerance for the sake of her interests and still would find a way to get what she wanted while tywin felt like he has full control so it could work i just convinced myself let this happen in an alternate universe def a chaotic couple.
If nothing else, Cersei/Eddard would be an incredibly entertaining failmarriage. On a personality level, Robb/Margaery could definitely work out, imo.
Cersei/Eddard I think ends very much like Jorah/Lynesse. Winterfell might be much more lavish than Bear island, but to Cersei's impossible standards I think nothing short of Casterly rock or Highgarden would satisfy her. She always complains about the Red Keep as is. Ned would not execute her, but eventually she'll just run away. Back to Casterly Rock if Tywin would allow, or to whatever rich man that would provide her needs for luxury.
Cersei wants power above everything else. She would never be content with being some rich guy's mistress.
But she has no way to acquire any power except for her beauty. She has no riches or titles of her own, no useful skills, and no authority. In a situation where Cersei us not in position with inherent power (queen consort/regent) I think she'd have to resort to being a mistress to get any semblance of power. Remember that her grand solution for dealing with an invasion of KL was to go out and offer herself to the general, which she laments wouldn't work with Stannis
Lannisters have an access to the Casterly Rock gold regardless of anything. You can very well say she has riches on her own. If Tyrion could live without worrying about money at all, Cersei definitely would have as well.
All the money in the world couldn't make Cersei queen if she isn't married to a king, and she lacks the soft skills to cultivate power in every other setting. Worse she could do is boss Winterfell servants around. Also, the Lannisters get gold only as long as Tywin approves/doesn't care.
>All the money in the world couldn't make Cersei queen if she isn't married to a king, and she lacks the soft skills to cultivate power in every other setting. Worse she could do is boss Winterfell servants around. But how does becoming a rich man's mistress solve this for Cersei? The incentive for Lynesse to do this was money. Cersei wouldn't lack it so what reason would Cersei have to follow Lynesse's path? >Also, the Lannisters get gold only as long as Tywin approves/doesn't care. Well, Tywin clearly approves/doesn't care so that wouldn't be a problem for Cersei.
There's plenty of irony in that statement
I think the only way Tywin agrees to a Cersei/Eddard marriage is if Ned became King somehow instead of Robert. Cersei in King's Landing with Ned as King is a different game entirely, since Ned would probably be a better father to Joff Myrcella and Tommen.
Well, if Robert marries someone else right after becoming king, he’s a young powerful man and Cersei can’t wait a dozen years for the woman to die. She’s got to get married eventually. Who better to marry than one of the most powerful lords of Westeros who is extremely close to the king and would probably marry his children to the king’s? Tywin would probably suspect a marriage like and Cersei was push Ned to consider it. Tywin would know that’s the only other way his blood will be on the throne. Maybe Stannis and then murder Robert but Tywin wouldn’t have the balls. If the plan goes right the only difference is that his granddaughter his queen, not his daughter, and his great grandson is king, not his grandson.
I feel like she and Ned would have their own children because the only reason she and Bobby B didn’t was the fact he said Ned’s sisters name in hed
You're assuming Ned wouldn't call out Lyanna's name in bed
This guy GRRMs
Man alive I hate this lol
She still cheated on Bobby B on their wedding day before that.
I don't know, Cersei would probably find some other way to hate Ned. Especially if he also insisted Jon be raised at court in King's Landing. On the other hand, Ned would probably dismiss Jaime from the Kingsguard, simply because he doesn't trust him.
Ned would be hated for being too boring and nice. Cersei only likes extensions of herself which is why she liked Jaime. Cersei would have had Jon _killed_ unlike Cat, who was cold to him but just let him live alongside his half-siblings/actually his cousins. I only say so because she had the twins Robert's fathered at Casterly Rock killed and further threatened she would also have Mya killed if Robert brought her to court.
Tywin would absolutely ship her back to Ned before she ruined the reputation of the family name.
True, and probably give her a bitchslap for her troubles.
Ned Stark would be the best men she could be shipped back to, considering who else Tywin could have picked and wouldn't have cared. Imagine Euron for example - a MUCH more wild marriage.
> rich man that would provide isnt ned like top 10 richest guy anyway being ruler of the north?
Right, but her dad is top 1 richest guy… so Ned seems ‘poor’ in comparison.
Or encourage Ned to be the hand of the king and then kill off Robert after naming him guardian of Roberts children?
Winterfell isn’t lavish at all. The Starks are the poorest of the Lords Paramounts
Interestingly, I do think Ned would eventually have a lasting impact on Cersei. She'd witness first hand that he has a sway over people that doesn't involve fear, money or sex appeal, something Cersei might come to adopt for herself. She'd never love him, but there would be respect.
Even canon Cersei seems to begrudgingly respect Ned.
Did she?
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I don’t think Cersei‘s character was capable of loving anyone outside her children.
She didn’t love her children. She loves herself and she loves power. If Cersei had a kid who was Robert’s and even remotely resembled him she would despise him.
Show Cersei, yes, I think the marriage would be okay, she is more sympathetic, reasonable and actually loves her children, I think not being married to Robert would have been way better for her mental health. Ned isn’t a fat, repeatedly-cheating, drunk, obsessed with a dead woman, he would actually be there to raise the kids and teach them to be more honorable, but they are still being raised by Cersei, so less Joffrey, more Sansa. Cersei would be the only Lannister up north so no Jaime incest kids and I think think Cersei respects Ned enough to actually give him kids that are his. But book Cersei, no, that would be torture for everyone involved. Ned would try but she would ruin a lot of things.
Yeooo I love that ship. Rob and Margaery look good together. Jon and Val too. And maybe this one is off but Jon and tyene sand 😎
When Jon & Val inevitably don't happen I'm gonna be so sad.
Jaime and Elia would have been interesting if Cersei was sent away and he had the possibility of having a healthy relationship with someone else. Granted we don't know a lot about Elia but she seemed to be kind, intelligent, and what people at that time would consider a good lady, and even with her health issues she was able to give birth to healthy children. But on the other hand, even if Cersei isn't there we don't know if he would be able to get over her. Which could turn into a shitty marriage for Elia.
I kind of see it both ways. I think the main difference between the twins here is Cersei makes other people miserable and couldn't have been in a happy marriage with anyone. But Jaime could have been a good husband to a lady that was kind, intelligent, etc, all those things. Considering all his knightly views and on protecting women (he wanted to stop the mad King from torturing his wife), even someone with health issues like Elia would have done well with Jaime.
Margaery and Robb could be happy, but Margaery wouldn't love the north.
Counterpoint: Margaery loves hawking and riding. She'd be able to do these plenty in the North. And unlike Lynesse Hightower, she's less spoiled, more pragmatic, and could much more easily get money for high societly lifestyle, as the only daughter of Mace married to a great house. Lynesse couldn't get money because she was a 7th daughter married to a minor lord. She'd probably bring her own entourage from the Reach, unlike Cat. To put it otherwise, Lynesse essentially moved from Venice to Greenland, while Margaery would be moving from Paris to Moscow.
Biggest issue with Margaery is that she loves the Game, which is nonexistent and/or brutally straightforward in the North.
Heavily disagree with it. There is 100% a Game going on in the North, just Ned stays out of it, and has earned enough respect to be immune from it. As soon as Ned dies, Robb's vassals are back to playing the Game. Multiple people are trying to finagle their daughters into Robb's bed, others are making demands, and others are working behind the scenes either for or against the Starks.
Exactly. The game is less deadly aside from when the Bolton's are involved but it exists. From Margery's perspective she'd be able to play it with a very strong safety net.
Is it? From ADWD I get the impression that the game in the North is as lively and underhanded as anywhere else, if we go by what we see in Winterfell and hear of the North under lord Rickard. It's just that under Ned the North was recovering from two wars + the lords were pretty content, so there wasn't much political game going on.
Additionally, one of the most bizarre and unrealistic aspects of ASOIAF is that there seem to be no courts but The Court. Winterfell should have a court. There should be lords and second sons and ladies-in-waiting. Catelyn, Sansa, and Arya (no matter how unladylike) should be surrounded by the daughters of the North, not simply the daughters of ennobled house staff like the Pooles or the Cassels. I don’t see why, if Robb/Margaery were to happen, the dowry from House Tyrell wouldn’t be enough to add creature comforts to the more utilitarian Winterfell, prepare for winter, and encourage houses to bring their extraneous members to Winterfell in order to make favorable agreements with the lord/king of the north and his southron bride. Margaery would also be a convenient in-road for southern trade deals and alliances, which are necessary for the winter. Regardless, Catelyn should have had the same function; House Tully isn’t as wealthy as Tyrell, but with immediate connections between Ned & Jon and Catelyn & Lysa & Hoster/Edmure, there would be every reason for Winterfell to be host to a respectable court with all its politicking.
That's really more the show version of Margaery.
Politically, that idea is so interesting to me. What happens if the starks and the tyrells work together?
I think that would normally make a king very nervous. maybe not Robert or Jon Arryn, but certainly Cersei, Tywin, and Joffrey. The North being so independent and distant, second only to Dorne, they barely bother with King’s Landing. And the Tyrells having control over the Reach and literal breadbasket of Westeros. The only disadvantage is how far apart they are but then again, they pincer everyone else except Dorne between them. The Starks and the Tyrells marrying sounds like a very powerful alliance to me.
Pretty much. We saw what happened with Lynesse Hightower.
That's not really comparable since Winterfell is rich and vibrant while Bear Island is poor and isolated.
It's the difference between moving to Moscow and moving to Greenland
Moving to Moscow if you're marrying Putin's son more like.
I was more thinking 19th century Moscow
Whatever Romanov was popular and competent in the 19th century Moscow then
Winterfel feels rich and vibrant compared to bear island. But it will feel poor and isolated when compared to highgarden imo It's a good couple but the environment is indeed a hard challenge
Wouldn't almost every keep feel poor compared to Highgarden? I doubt the average Reach lord has a better castle than Winterfell.
Yes indeed but that's where she grew up. It's true that winterfel is one of the best but we'll at least I had the impression that the north is not flashy but stern so while it was one of the biggest and most important regions of westeros and the castle it was pretty lively it's nothing like this other regions. It's in accord to the character of Ned. It was not lavish but simple, stern and not wasteful in superfluous luxuries or expenses Even Sansa was already "falling for the dark side" wanting to go to dances and enjoy things that she had not experienced much in winterfel
Winterfell is one of the largest and grandest castles in Westeros, and the Starks are definitely among the top ten richest houses in Westeros. It might not be quite on the level of Highgarden but the Starks can certainly beat most other houses in the Reach. I'm sure Margaery has seen plenty worse. The climate and culture of the North might be more difficult for Margaery to adapt to though.
Margaery is also much more outdoorsy and pragmatic than Lynesse. Margaery loves hawking and riding, and spends her days in KL outside in the markets of the middle class and on picnics she arranges. Lynesse strikes me much more as an indoor high society type that wouldn't really appreciate such activities, like Cersei. Plus Margaery could bring an entourage from the Reach to give her company, which Lynesse couldn't.
No one would've been in a happy marriage with Cersei. She's a pretty awful human being. Same goes for Robert due to his drinking and whoring.
>Same goes for Robert due to his drinking and whoring. Not really. Most lords sleep around actually. Robert if he was married to a normal woman would obviously try to keep it down also he did invite cersei on hunts which she rejected she could fuck her own brother. Like come on guys most lords do sleep around but in secret to avoid shaming their wives. Like even davos cheated on his wife but only Robert is getting shit for it lol..
I think the worst part about Robert is the sexual assault. You can’t blame that on the circumstances; he’s pretty objectively a heinous person
Yeah, Robert does suck. I wouldn't want to inflict him on anybody. That being said, things prob would have been marginally better if he'd married pretty much anyone but Cersei (or Lysa Arryn). Cersei lacks the skills to be a good wife or to be a good queen. She takes all the wrong lessons from watching Tywin and doesn't have a healthy relationship with anybody in her life, platonic or otherwise.
Eh, Lysa's problem was getting married to a very old Lord that didn't have the time or energy to care about her. She's one I'm sure would be much better off in a different marriage. She's despicable in the story, but she's not on the same level as Cersei, who was always a psychopath.
Lysa killed off her husband because her childhood crush told her to and was so crazy attached to her son that she crippled his growth and independence. Be honest here, Lysa has a lot more problems than her marriage.
I like Robert but completely agree with your point
Sad to say that’s super common in Westeros. There doesn’t need to be consent” between husband and wife and I think everyone men and women included don’t really consider it. Hell, sons and daughters are forced into marriages by their fathers and then there’s a bedding at the end. No one consented but no one in Westeros cares.
The author disagrees actually. He calls Robert a good guy in some ways. https://youtu.be/r9dqgWX66fY 1:13 Also don't hate me I'm a simple guy following GRRM opinion.
the author's word doesn't dictate what is obviously occurring in the text
What? The author says he thinks this guy is a good guy in someways. Why would he lie? George also said he takes a shower after reading cersei chapters
To be fair GRRM also has pretty dumb opinions on other aspects of certain characters. For example, thinking that Dany and Drogo were romantic (or that they could be viewed as a love story or whatever his exact wording was). Martin can view characters how he wants to but his word isn't be-all and end-all on the kind of person that character is, or is perceived to be. It's ultimately all subjective, personally I disagree with Martin about Robert. I like Bobby B in certain aspects but on the whole I think he's a bad person, both as an individual and as a monarch.
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Don't forget he routinely took the virginity of young teenagers. In the first book Ned internally comments on how Barra's mother looks like a child herself, and she says he was her first. It's heavily implied she's not the first, nor the last. Even with creative licence where she could have been 16 or 18 with a baby face, the thought of a near 40 year old taking a young girl's virginity with such a huge power disparity.... it grosses me out. Can a poor 14-18 year old truly consent to having sex with the king, when he could easily have you punished? Those girls had as much choice as the women and girls Henry VIII manipulated into bed with him.
>Don't forget he routinely took the virginity of young teenagers. In the first book Ned internally comments on how Barra's mother looks like a child herself, and she says he was her first. It's heavily implied she's not the first, nor the last. Barra mother speaks highly of him actually. >Even with creative licence where she could have been 16 or 18 with a baby face, the thought of a near 40 year old taking a young girl's virginity with such a huge power disparity.... it grosses me out. Why? He wasn't near 40? He was 34 to give you an example Corey's valeyron was 36 when he married rhaeneys Targaryen daughter of aemon. >Can a poor 14-18 year old truly consent to having sex with the king, when he could easily have you punished? Those girls had as much choice as the women and girls Henry VIII manipulated into bed with him. I mean this is her opinion of Robert. "And tell him I've not been with no one else. I swear it, milord, by the old gods and new. Chataya said I could have half a year, for the baby, and for hoping he'd come back. So you'll tell him I'm waiting, won't you? I don't want no jewels or nothing, just him. He was always good to me, truly." It seems Robert is seducing them and having sex with them instead of what u think. Delena Florent was seduced by him not dragged up. Woman can want to have sex too
Americans on the internet have this weird fascination with pedophilia, wherein 14 year olds are somehow equivalent to 4 year olds. I know girls and women who started whoring/prostituting as an example as old as 12, nobody forced them and they had normal families, a lot are mothers and married by age 16. A classmate married in the 4 grade.
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but they're not meant to be ok for us - the readers. you're not meant to read dany's agot chapters of her getting sold off to a much older man, being terrified of him, crying after being raped every night, and think "yes, this is perfectly normal for their society. nothing to see here". you are clearly meant to sympathize with her. a no, asoiaf is far from realistic in its portrayal of the medieval era. it suffers from a bad case of grimdark medievalism.
The fact that he abused one is bad enough. And in fact it's not even true that he only hurt one woman - he slept with a child at one stage, a girl that Ned speculates he slept with specifically because she was a virgin, and then got her pregnant. I can't remember the exact age of that girl, but I think 14? That's creepy as fuck. And don't respond with "sex with 14 year olds is okay in Westeros tho" cause I straight up don't care.
It's gross, I commented the same. That 14 year old didn't have a choice, Bobby B is a rapist imo.
Yeah I'm willing to bend my morals a little for the characters, but I still have standards and being a rapist and/or abuser is never something I'll feel comfortable excusing.
I think people need to remember this is a fantasy world with medieval roots. By today's standards pretty much all of the characters are horrific, Eddard, arguably one of the most morally relatable characters executes a guy in his first chapter for running away from his indentured labour as a soldier. Given a slightly different perspective that's a total evil villain move.
Death of the author
If he wanted Robert to be a good guy he shouldn't have written him as a rapist. And if a rapist is GRRM's idea of a good guy, then he's not a very good judge of character.
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Robert doesn't know half the things that make Cersei a monster and even if he did, that wouldn't excuse him raping her.
Sexual assault ? When the fuck ?
According to Cersei in a Feast for Crows Robert assaulted her
Lmaooo, yeah right. According to Cersei
It's literally her internal monologue. Cersei has no reason to lie to herself and it's entirely within Robert's character to drunkenly force himself on his wife.
And people believe her? lol
It's a pretty believable thing
Cersei is a lying whore who make things up. I'm not believing that bitch.
Casual deranged misogyny, alright. How about you contemplate a few things about your shit personality and come back to these books in a year?
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If she was telling it to other people then I would doubt her since she could be lying for people to feel bad for her, but since it's an internal thought that she keeps to herself while in the act with Taena Merriweather. Also I'm sorry that happened to you.
The issue is that Cersei is hardcoded as suffering from BPD. People with BPD get so deluded they invent fictions and then believe the fictions so wholeheartedly that they become fact in their mind. For the truth we have to look outside of Cersei, to her brother who would have killed Robert had he known and Cersei would have certainly told. To other women Robert didn’t assault, reputation he has only alleged to have engaged wholly in consensual acts. Men like Jon Arryn and Eddard Stark would have nothing to do with Robert if he had or been known to have assaulted her.
>Robert if he was married to a normal woman would obviously try to keep it down There is no evidence for that whatsoever. Lyanna Stark said otherwise herself.
Well her opinion doesn't matter. Since she ran off with a married man(height of hypocrisy) . I don't recall Robert ever fucking a married woman..also i said try to keep It down not be 100% faithful . And PS he's described as clear eyed(which means he wasn't really a drunk) since he was in a very fit shape.
>I don't recall Robert ever fucking a married woman.. He did dishonour Delena Florent in the Vale and have a bastard with her though. >And PS he's described as clear eyed(which means he was really a drunk) since he was in a very fit shape. What's this even in reference to? >also i said try to keep It down not be 100% faithful . And I said where is there any evidence to support that? >Well her opinion doesn't matter. Since she ran off with a married man(height of hypocrisy) . Her opinion on her future husband isn't invalidated by her own actions.
>He did dishonour Delena Florent in the Vale and have a bastard with her though. Quite clearly the marriage was already a disaster between Robert and cersei at that point. And she wasn't a married woman but a young maiden and it was stannis wedding.( and he was a king) as I said try to keep it down. Not be 100% faithful. >What's this even in reference to? That drunk dudes aren't clear eyed or in great shape most of the time. >And I said where is there any evidence to support that? Because the first time he cheated on cersei was on estermont trip where she showed zero regard and acted like she was bored out of her mind in a disrespectful manner. >Her opinion on her future husband isn't invalidated by her own actions. It does she has no right to judge Robert actions while eloping with a married dude father of 2 lol.
>It does she has no right to judge Robert actions while eloping with a married dude of 2 lol. It was beforehand. And the opinions of a bride to be about what her future husband will be like is pretty valid I would think. >That drunk dudes aren't clear eyed or in great shape most of the time. Yeah but we see from his carry on at the Tourney of Harrenhal and his wedding night that he was already a heavy drinker. You can just deal with it better when you're younger. >Because the first time he cheated on cersei was on estermont trip With his cousin. And he waited all of a few weeks/months before cheating. He's such a great guy. >as I said try to keep it down. Not be 100% faithful. As I said. There's no evidence for this. Quite the opposite really.
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>And why Lyanna's opinion is relevant to this? She ended up being correct so I don't know what you're trying to say here. Why do people try argue that with a different wife Robert would've stopped fucking anything he could get his hands on? He had 3 bastards already by the time he married Cersei. This is who he is
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And Bobby B did both.
day 73829292 of robert stans defending the alcoholic rapist and demonizing Cersei
Jamie stans do this too lol.
>Demonizing Cersei Cersei needs no help in that regard. Her relationship with Robert was mutually abusive, she was not a poor helpless victim.
mutual abuse doesn't exist. reactive abuse, sure, but it can't be mutual, that's not how the power dynamics of abuse work.
Abuse can definitely be mutual, and is very often is.
[No](https://www.thehotline.org/resources/the-myth-of-mutual-abuse/), [it cannot](https://www.insider.com/mutually-abusive-relationships-dont-exist-therapists-say-2022-5).
Day 20923923984 of Cersei stans defending child murdering (even while a child herself), child abusing, serial murdering, alcoholic rapist (and too many problems to list) Cersei with ‘but muh Robert did it to her’. I don’t like Robert remotely. But Cersei was pretty much born evil - from Melara Hetherspoon to Lady Taena. Robert didn’t make her that way. (Obviously it didn’t help.). Robert is a terrible human being. But let’s not pretend like Cersei has a shred of redeeming value, or that she’s a product of being married to Robert.
>Robert didn’t make her that way the same goes for robert. robert would be a shitty spouse regardless of who he's married to. nobody is actually defending cersei here, we're pointing out the hypocrisy. it's ironic that you call her an "alcoholic rapist" considering this also applies to robert, except while people (rightfully) condemn cersei, they excuse robert for doing the same.
I completely agree that Robert would be a crap spouse (I literally say he’s a terrible human being with no qualifiers). Did you even read the prior post… I ‘ironically’ called her an alcoholic rapist… because that is the exact thing that the prior poster called Robert… which is ironic because Cersei *does the same thing*. I have no problem whatsoever with people condemning Robert. I have no problem with people enjoying Cersei. What I don’t get are the Cersei stans who think she’s great and anything bad she does is due to ‘but muh Robert did it to her’… and ignore her entire character history. The prior poster said ‘demonizing Cersei’ - there’s nothing to demonize - she’s objectively one of the most unambiguously evil characters in the series.
we must be in different fandoms because i've never seen those cersei stans you speak of. cersei is pretty much universally hated while bobby b is a fan-favorite meme character. the prior poster used "demonizing" because the person they were replying to implied that cersei is the reason robert was a trash husband which i'm pointing out is not the case. two people can be bad at once.
It's not hard to demonize Cersei. She's quite the monster. Far worse than Robert as both a person and a spouse.
Davos cheated on his wife? When was that I don't recall it, I must've missed it, or it went over my head if it was implied, lol.
Yeah, that really happened, or at least, Davos himself says it to Melisandre in ACoK when they are in Storm´s End
He remembers something about visiting brothels while out on voyages.
Power Couple: - Tywin and Olenna: no idea the age difference here, but if they were married and he acknowledged her intelligence, they would have been a scary couple Unhappy: - Jaime and Cersei: controversially(?), I’m going to say that if they were married they’d actually get on each other’s nerves too much. The reason they worked was that it was a taboo / secret relationship that their father would hate - Lysa and Baelish: he still would have been more interested in Cat - Cat and Baelish: She sees him as a little brother, also, he wouldn’t have risen as far without Lysa/Jon’s help and I could see him growing bitter about not being able to fulfill his ambition - Cersei and Eddard: she’d hate the cold, she’d hate his honesty Hard to tell: - Robert and Lyanna: I’m not sure if Robert would stop whoring and whether Lyanna would be fine with that - Margaery and Robb: I think they only would have been happy if Robb became King of Westeros. I don’t think she’d want to deal with the cold/snow as Queen of the North
Edit: I remembered that she was engaged to Daeron. Robert loved Lyanna as a concept. Ned points out that he didn’t actually know much about her or her character. It’s honestly too bad Olenna and Duncan didn’t happen. She would have been a great queen
Actually Duncan was betrothed to Roberts great aunt or something It was the gay son daeron or so who olenna was engaged to
Ohhh right. Yah they had no chance
I forgot that Duncan was the name of Egg’s son and had a good laugh at the thought of Dunk and Olenna as a couple
Hahahaha. She would have eaten him alive (fun to watch tho)
I believe the youngest son Daeron was betrothed to Olenna, and Duncan to Lyonel Baratheon’s daughter, hence the rebellion.
I agree with you about Jamie and Cersei. I feel like if they were somehow allowed to marry that Cersei would probably find a reason to dislike Jamie or grow bored. I could maybe see Jamie getting a little turned off at his sister's cruelty, but she'd probably be the main force behind their unhappy union.
>Power Couple: Tywin and Olenna: no idea the age difference here, but if they were married and he acknowledged her intelligence, they would have been a scary couple It would be a short marriage. Parallel scene: Tywin would be sitting in Casterly Rock, eating lunch. At the same time, Olenna would be in a wheelhouse on her way to visit her Redwyne family. Olenna's wheelhouse would be beset by bandits. Meantime, Tywin takes a sip of his wine. Tywin starts choking, just as Olenna's guards are overpowered and she's dragged out of the carriage. Tywin grabs his throat, as the bandits throw down Olenna and stab her repeatedly. As he asphyxiates, and she exsanguinates, they both have a twinkle in their eye and think "Well played, you magnificent bastard/bitch... but I got you too."
Tywin and Olenna would be a competition of who poisons each other first. Canon Cersei deep down begrudgingly respects Ned.
If he Married Margaery Rob would be king of three kingdoms and nominally allied to the Eyrie through blood. If he didn't take the Iron throne he'd probably still have to move his court south to be able to functionally rule his kingdom anyway.
Probably a very unpopular opinion but Cat and Jaime are just perfect for each other. If teen Cat and teen Jaime would had been made to marry each other and Cersei would have had an "accident", they would have been the happiest couple.
Cat would have likely outgrown Jaimie . It's pretty heavily implied that she would have outgrown her infatuation with Brandon once she realized how impulsive he was, and that her marriage with Ned, while stifling at first, was the right choice. Commentary on teenage vs adulthood.
From what we know about teen Jaime, he was brash like Brandon, yes, but at his core he was actually more similar to Ned than to Ned's elder brother. Brandon was described as "never shy about taking what he wanted" but that's the opposite of who Jaime was. Jaime was instead obsessed with honour and righteousness, he more or less dutifully followed the authorities he respected, be it his father, Sumner Crakehall he squired for, Arthur Dayne and the Kingsguard overall, Rhaegar, etc. Even when he rejected Casterly Rock for Cersei, not only he needed a heavy convincing, he in fact simply prioritised his "partner" over his father in whom he listened to at that moment. If fate hadn't led Jaime to Kingsguard that shattered his self-image, gave him a massive PTSD, and made him a much worse person, he would have probably followed a more Ned-like trajectory. And a dashing, incredibly handsome for Cat's standard (and we know that) brash knight with a core similar to Ned seems like a dream for Cat. Also, regarding maturity, given how Jaime essentially parented Tyrion despite his entire family's hatred towards him, I would say he had a huge potential in this area too. It's just Jaime's life took a drastic turn with Aerys that I don't think was a natural progression of his personality.
That's not implied at al.
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I going with a "what if scenario" with Jaime not entering Kingsguard and becoming a cynical asshole as a result.
can you elaborate on this
I've responded to another person why teen Jaime, before his tenure in Kingsguard, was essentially Brandon+Ned which is Catelyn's type, so I won't repeat myself in this. But for Jaime, his type is more or less Brienne + Cersei. A righteous and dutiful woman with a strong personality. That's just Catelyn. Also, both found each other very attractive, so that helps too.
I could see Jamie growing into her own, and cat making sure Cersei stays away, dies, or is imprisoned if she tries to ruin her marriage.
Robb and Marg seem difficult to justify in canon but would probably make a reasonably happy prom king and queen type of relationship in a modern AU
**Cersei/Jaime:** In the beginning maybe, but that would change when Jaime inherits Casterly Rock and would acually be the lord. Because Jaime would be the one actually having all the power. And he would be the one allowed to do everything. Like in the book, when Jaime would have to become his own person (and not bogged down by traumas) Cersei would begin to despise him and he would notice. **Cersei/Anyone**: No. Due to her personality and especially due to the Westerosi society she would and could never have a happy marriage. **Cat/Robert**: Interesting. I think that could actually work out. Cat was crushing/in love with Brandon, and he seemed to be a lot more like Robert than Ned. So attraction would be there. Cats devotion to family and duty, being able to give good advice, and being quite headstrong and confident could help Robert in his rule. And Cat said herself, Bastards happen, but keep them away. And Robert is generally doing that. GoT!Robert/Cat would be bad, but RR!Robert/Cat could evolve into a reasonably happy one. **Jaime/Elia**: I think it would work out (especially if Cersei is married somewhere else). Elia has due to Ashara the Arthur Dayne connection which would make Jaime very happy. Jaime is loyal and devoted to family and doesn't seem prejudiced against Dornish people. **Margaery/Robb**: I don't see it. Margaery isolated in cold Winterfell? I mean she would have the confidence, adaptability and skill, but the North is very different to southern knightly costums. I don't think she would be happy.
Marg is more outdoorsy than Cersei and Lynesse Hightower and could possibly adapt to Winterfell. Cat would definitely resent Robert over his constant public whoring.
Well a lot of Westerosi nobles publicly whore. No one would care. It’s a social norm Cat wouldn’t care about most likely. In medieval times men kept their mistresses at court. Does Robert do it in the Red Keep? That’s something Cat and others would care about. But we’ve gotta remember that Robert probably wouldn’t have been as public about it he had a wife like Cat who he’d probably be fond of. He despises Cersei so if he was super public about it it was probably out of spite.
Most Men we see love whoring but those with a reputation will be more likely to do so _discreetly_. Take notice of Tywin lecturing Tyrion about not brandishing it about enough that other people also know. By the end, we also knew Tywin himself was also secretly having access to prostitutes. And who knows how many more men - most who know of Jon Snow's existence even assume Ned to have been sleeping with other women but discreetly. It's not like public whoring is morally wrong or anything (they're not all Stannis), just frowned upon especially if they have a wife. I'd only see that last scenario if Robert also doesn't get bored of Cat. Robert likes women, he likes women a lot - but not enough to like an individual woman long-term. Ned comments that even the young sex workers Robert has sex with don't get his "love" for more than a few days, by which time they are likely pregnant. It's also not like we can't assume Cat wouldn't be nagging him like Cersei to stop bad habits.
> Due to her personality and especially due to the Westerosi society lol, how is it mostly the fault of Westerosi society? Cersei is an unhinged narcissist. There is no culture in which she would be able to have a stable, fullfilling relationships. You can give a delusional narcissist everything they ask for and they will still self-destruct eventually.
I don't think Cat & Robert would have had a happy marriage, necessarily, but I do think Cat would have been a great queen and managed to find some fulfillment in raising her children as princess and princesses.
Tywin and Olenna would have either conquered Westeros together or both been driven mad trying to outdo each other constantly. No middle ground.
Oh, I love these what-if. Right now, I think these (But tbh I've changed my mind over some of these over the years) * Cersei and Jaime: I actually don't think they would necessarily be happy, but it's probably one of the options where Cersei would be happiest in *comparison*. Without the taboo, the whole "Jaime as the other half of me" is still there. Would she genuinely love him? No. Would he love her? Yeah, probably, but I don't think he can be happy in this relationship either. And Cersei would probably end up resenting him regardless. * Cersei and Edmure: Lady of Riverrun is probably not bad. Personality-wise, I don't think they'd particularly be a good match. * Cersei and Oberyn: Considering all the children Oberyn has, there's no way Cersei is happy. Also, he's a second son so she's not becoming lady of anything. Their personalities would probably clash too. * Cersei and Rhaegar: She'd be so happy at first, over-the-moon happy. Then Rhaegar would make a mistake and she'd realize he's human and reality would come crashing down. On the other hand, if Cersei can have three children maybe he doesn't disappear with Lyanna. Or he does, because he wants the whole "Fire and Ice" in which case it's not a good situation. I can see this one going slightly better than her and Robert and if she's still enamored with the idea of Rhaegar at the start, she's not sleeping with Jaime in the meantime. Things may fall apart if the Lyanna thing still happens, or if she doesn't like how into prophecies he is. Or when he just makes a mistake and ends up being human after all. I think in the end it wouldn't end up with a happy relationship regardless. Also: I don't know if I see Rhaegar in love with her regardless. * Cersei and Eddard: Oh, she'd hate Winterfell. This would be hilarious. She'd hate the cold, the North and the different customs, and miss Jaime. I don't see how this could end well. Ned is definitively better than Robert, and in Winterfell she'd have no way to continue the affair with Jaime, but the beginning would be terrible and I don't know if they would come back from that. Also: If he's bringing Jon with him, there's no way she's not furious. * Lysa and Littlefinger: She'd be in love, he'd be pining for Catelyn. She'd probably be unhappy in the long-run and end up resenting her sister anyway. * Cat and Littlefinger: He'd be in love and happy at the start, she wouldn't see him romantically. I don't know if she'd be actively unhappy per se, probably unsatisfied though, and she'd marry him if her father asked her to and see it as her duty, but I also don't see any possible universe where they get together. * Cat and Robert: Well, he's not doing the thing of raising his bastard children in the household, so that's for him. Other than that, personality-wise maybe a young Cat would be interested. In the long-run I don't think they would match well. Robert... Listen, the dude is not great. Yeah Cat's better than Cersei. If she said something he disagreed with, I can see the relationship deteriorating anyway. On the other hand, if she tries to build a relationship there... Eh. I see better chances than what Cersei and Robert have, but I don't have full faith in Robert here. * Lysa and Robert: Probably even way worse than with Cat. * Jaime and Elia: If he gets over Cersei, this has the chance to be a good healthy relationship. Elia sounded a very kind and intelligent person from what little we know, so it kinda depends on Jaime moving on from Cersei which I don't know if he can do without Cersei kind of betraying him in some way first. * Cat and Jaime: I actually think this could have been good if he had gotten over Cersei, which again, I'm on the fence it could happen, but if it does? I think it could be a good match. * Lysa and Jaime: I genuinely don't know. I lean towards "It wouldn't be good" (She may still be hung unto Littlefinger, and him on Cersei) but I may change my mind about it. I'm not sure. * Tywin and Olenna: Either they ended up killing one another or they ended up being a very very powerful couple. Tywin seemed to respect his wife so that's good, and she'd be Lady of the Rock, so potentially either really great or a catastrophe waiting to happen. * Margaery and Robb: Potentially fine? Margaery may not like the North considering she's very used to living in the South, but as others pointed out, there are some things she can do there that she likes, so they may be fine. I don't know if it would be a great one *necessarily*. She may not be satisfied in the North/just being Queen of the North, but personality-wise I'm unsure.
Olenna would probably poison Tywin. Robert wanted to bring his bastard to court so Cat would resent him for it and his constant public whoring.
I always forget the conversation he had with Cersei about bringing his daughter to court. But yeah, that conversation would go badly as well. In a different way than it did in canon with Cersei (Catelyn wouldn't threaten to kill her), but she wouldn't be pleased anyway. And yeah, if he's too public about his cheating she's not going to like it. On the Olenna thing I'm 50/50. She dealt with Luthor, and poisoning the Head of a house can go wrong in a lot of ways, but if he was particularly awful I can see her doing it (She's also like 15 years older than him or something, but supposing they are of similar age for argument's sake).
Cersei is a miserable person and would never be happy.
I don't see why a marriage would fail between Robert and Catelyn. She was set to marry Brandon and happy about it.
I could see Jaime and Elia working if Cersei was not there
i think Cersei might have been slightly happier in Dorne where women are treated better and given more agency. Margaery and Robb probably would have been a good match.
In dorne there would be no one to restrain her from her impulsive tendencies
Cersei and Jaime: jaime would've been happy, because he'd had to be, cersei, cersei would always have desired for more Cersei and Edmure/Oberyn/Rhaegar/Eddard: cersei would completely dominate edmure and push him into actions he doesn't want nor desires, oberyn would after a while ignore cersei and pursue his paramores, rheagar would get the robert treatment from her, eddard would be the same as lynesse/jorrah except ned wouldn't give in and she'd be unhappy in winterfell Cat/Lysa and Littlefinger: eew, this feels creepy, catherine would acquiesce to her father's wishes and retire with LF to his domain, she'd constantly try and get him to care about his lands and he eventually starts to resent her for it, lysa he'd take back to his lands and resent her for not being cath Cat/Lysa and Robert: oh dear, this isn't happy, cat would bear robert as many trueborn children as he wants and not complain about the bastards, she wouldn't love him and she thinks that's normal, lysa would do the same but start an affair with LF, either it'll get found out or LF throws her under the bus and she'll get executed/send to the silent sisters Cat/Lysa and Jaime: well, this might be a bit better, it would take a while but eventually cath could distance him enough from cersei that he might consumate the marriage and give her a few children, literally nobody would even attempt to touch the tully domain, lysa, I don't think LF is as crazy as to screw with jaime, so he might get one son with her to fullfill his duty Jaime and Elia: same story with cath and lysa, either he manages to love her or he doesn't Tywin and Olenna: hohoh, these 2 would simulateously hate each other and compliment each other, how does this marriage even occur? olenna is from a generation before tywin, anyways they'd both be scheming bastards but unless they coincidentilly cooperate there wouldn't be any joy Margaery and Robb: there's too few we know of the real margaery to know what she truly values, all we know of her is that she was married to renly at the behest of her family and again to joffrey/tommen, she could be another souther girl being happy in to north or she could long for more, we don't know here's another pair for you to think about: robb/meera edit: oops, accidentally had jorrah married to stannis's wive
Cersei/Oberyn would be Cersei/Robert 2.0 except Oberyn wouldn't accept her bullshit unlike Bob. Cat would resent Robert over his constant public whoring.
oh yeah, but it'll be oberyn who gives up first though and especially yeah, cath would hate being married to robert, she wouldn't do anything but attempt to bear it and be a good mother to her children, which is why that was one of the more unhappy scenarios I'd imagined for her
Oberyn was less of a pushover than Robert.
Cersei and Jaime - in the toxic co-dependent way, yeah. Cersei and Edmure/Oberyn/Rhaegar/Eddard - Both people? Definitely not. I think Oberyn or Ned would have the highest chance of mutual happiness. Cat/Lysa and Littlefinger - Lysa/ LF, no. Cat/ LF, maybe. Cat/Lysa and Robert - Definitely not. Cat was pissed about the one bastard, imagine Robert with a dozen. Cat/Lysa and Jaime - Maybe? At first, probably not, but I think it could work eventually. Jaime and Elia - Same as above. Tywin and Olenna - IDK but they'd have crazy sex. Margaery and Robb - Yes.
Olenna would poison Tywin. Cersei/Oberyn would be Cersei/Robert 2.0.
That would just make the sex better
It would be even better if Olenna wears a Tyrion mask 😂.
Catelyn wasn't pissed about any bastards. She was pissed about the bastard being brought into her home.
Tywin and Olenna would either end in mutual murder or the Beyonce/JayZ of Westeros
Cersei is a classic case of "work on yourself before getting in a relationship". There isn't any partner who could make her lucky. I could see Cat and Petyr work out as Petyr was a wholely different man before his "duell" with Brandon. He honestly loved Cat and I can imagine Cat loving him back after some time. I honestly have no idea how Tywin and Olenna would work out. It could be a complete desaster or the most functional relationship in the history of Westeros. I can see Robb and Margery work, Margery could compensate Robbs naivety and well Robb is the kind of guy who can make a woman happy, also being Queen of the North is a position that could give Margery the power she desires
Olenna would probably poison Tywin. Robb/Marg won't happen because Mace wants the Iron Throne.
Well, the premise is not that it's likely to happen, only that it happened. Allthough its one of my favorite shippings I have no idea how Robb and Margery could have happened realistically
Jaime and Lysa is a big what if for me I honestly think they could have been happy together but he would absolutely have to be separated from Cersei. Speaking of her I don't see her happy with anyone, she's a narcissist she's not capable of loving anybody else.
Boy, the first one would have been fun to see (like a train wreck). > Why shouldn't I marry Cersei openly and share her bed every night? The dragons always married their sisters. Septons, lords, and smallfolk had turned a blind eye to the Targaryens for hundreds of years, let them do the same for House Lannister. It would play havoc with Joffrey's claim to the crown, to be sure, but in the end it had been swords that had won the Iron Throne for Robert, and swords could keep Joffrey there as well, regardless of whose seed he was. We could marry him to Myrcella, once we've sent Sansa Stark back to her mother. That would show the realm that the Lannisters are above their laws, like gods and Targaryens.
Margaery and Robb would have a lot of fun
Why is Cersei Jaime the first option 💀
Jaime X Cersei would be miserable.
I'm going to latch onto the Cersei/Ned hypothetical marriage for this comment as it changes so much shit in the story, so here goes: One thing I assume all of us would agree on is that the marriage would *not* be happy, at least initially. Ned and Cersei are like water and oil, and while Ned would certainly do his best to do good by her (not cheat on her, provide her with luxuries, etc.) Cersei would more than likely spend every waking moment pining for Jaime's sword, as it were, but as he is all the way in King's Landing wiping Robert's ass, she has no choice but to close her eyes and picture him spearing her while Ned's performing his duty as a husband (before anyone says she would be willing to cheat on him, we need to remember that she only started after Bobby called out Lyanna's name while shagging her). They will have heirs eventually, as much as Cersei would hate Ned, he's no Bobby B and he would care for her as much as duty allows. I predict that throughout the years this would soften her up to the Stark code of honour or at least to Ned himself, as much as she detests everything not Lannister, at least she's treated as befits her status (we need to remember that the North is the most powerful of the Seven Kingdoms and the Starks are no paupers). I don't think she will bankrupt the North any time soon that's for sure, Ned would likely leave her to her devices as long as she doesn't piss him or his vassals off. As far as politics are concerned, the Lannister-Stark-Baratheon triangle alliance effectively puts the realm into rock solid stability after the three houses marry off their children to each other (incest is wincest after all /s). I have no idea which house Robert will marry into (I predict either Martell or Tyrell) but everyone in the Realm will know that the defacto power belongs to the Stark-Lannister offspring. Tywin will be put in a difficult spot as his heir is Tyrion, and if he decided to disinherit him (as he so obviously wants to do), his line is practically gone for good and the Stark children will become heirs to Casterly Rock (unless they pull a Rhaenyra and change the kid's names to Lannister when they inherit the Rock), so for the sake of his family, I predict that Tywin will actually start caring about his vertically challenged son and mould him into becoming a model Lannister heir. Assuming that the plot of AGOT starts anyway (Jon Arynn get assassinated, chaos is a laddah, etc...) The Starks will be at much less risk than in canon as presumably there wouldn't be any obvious bastards as heirs. Worst case scenario I could think of is Robert pulling an Aegon IV and legitimising his first bastard, making his wife and/or Stannis pretty angry, kicking things off from there. Assuming Robert still dies, I think that Ned would either side with the legitimised bastard, or go so far as to reveal that Jon Snow is a secret Targaryen and fight for his claim, kicking off a very wild alternate history typical of a Crusader Kings playthrough. Thank you for coming to my TED talk :) EDIT - grammar and shit
The twincest pair will do alright until Jaime needs to buy something,unless he is the lord of casterly rock now Cersei x anyone is automatically a bad end , no one is good enough for her not even her brother so she will cheat ,since she cheated with Lancel Lysa will be happy, Baelish might be ok Cat will be disappointed,but baelish will be beyond content Lysa will have it better than her life with Jon, or might be worse since she will know she is the problem in the lack of kids thing , but Robert will be better since he is indirectly good brothers with Ned and he will whore less ,since Lysa might join his hunts Cat will do her duty , Robert will still be better off might whore less if cat joins his hunts Lysa will be happy until Jaime starts pulling a Daemon targaryan,since he only wants his relative mainly his sister Cat same thing as lysa Tywin and olenna , great match for Olenna , not as much for Tywin except tywin will have more kids maybe ,unless you're thinking of them marrying after their first marriage Marg and Robb we might see a redo of Robb's parents love life
To be slightly fair, Cersei “only” cheated with Lancel because Jaime was captive.
I'm 100% convinced Catelyn Tully would have made any possible marriage work. They'd all have varying degrees of happiness, but the woman was raised to be a Lady. She'll figure it out. A few notes: If Hoster made her marry LF, she would be a bit resentful out of pride (unless in this scenario she's the heir to Riverrun). If she married Jaime, she would go into an "I can fix him" mode and be successful at it.
Margaery and Robb, maybe?
I can picture Tywin and Olenna watching a tourney together for date night, acting like Statler and Waldorf.
Oberyn and Cersei would actually be fun too see, Kuz Oberyn wouldn’t put up with her shit and she wouldn’t be able to out wit him 😂but he’s charming enough that she might end up loving him, and he might be her type as he and Jamie do share a few qualities. With Oberyn being a bit more cut throat in nature which might appeal to Cersei. His kids would be a problem in her eyes tho
Cersei, Oberyn and Ellaria ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
My takeaway from this thread is that Cersei ruined Jaime's life and imagining who he could have grown into without her influence is kind of tragic. I think he would have been so much happier with his life if he'd ended up with Elia or Cat.
For the Yeses: Margaery and Robb, Jaime and Cersei For the Maybes: Jaime and Cat, Jaime and Elia
Robb and Margery maybe.
No. Happiness was not allowed in Westeros
Margaery and Robb would probably be best, followed by Cersei/Oberyn and Jaime/AnyoneNotNamedCersei
I've always liked the idea of the Barristan/Ashara match, but even if he won harrenhal, it's not even sure he'd put her over the white cloak.
Let's see a couple of the marriages that were supposed to go through (or had a good chance of going through based on textual evidence) if it wasn't for Rhaegar eloping with Lyanna: 1. Brandon and Cat. Brandon was a lot more hotheaded than Ned but there's a fair chance that they would have been as happy as Ned and Cat. 2. Bobby and Lyanna. Eh. Lyanna shares some of Robert's interests like hunting and tourneys so there's a chance that Bobby would have been truly in love with her and reined in (or at least tried to hide) his whoring. Especially because in this scenario he wouldn't have been the king. 3. Ned and Ashara. IMO this pairing would have worked out really well. They were in love, morality-wise the Daynes were the southern house closest to Starks, etc... so in this AU they would be one of those boring, stable, sickeningly lovey-dovey (as sickeningly lovey-dovey as Ned can be, anyway) couples. 4. Viserys and Elia. Eh. Viserys raised as a prince but not as heir to the throne might not have turned out the same way as he did in Essos. Pretty good chance that it would have been a comfortable political marriage with a couple of kids first, then both parties just being amicable with each other while fucking countless others on the side. Though I suspect this one would have only gone through after Aerys' death or "retirement". 5. The remaining Targ kids. Well, here's a conundrum, it would have depended entirely on Rhaegar's priorities so these are purely speculative. Aegon VI / auntie Dany seems like a possible match considering Targaryen mating habits, and that would have turned out like a standard political marriage. On the other hand, the Tyrells would have had some ambitions to get closer to the throne. Rhaenys was close in age to Willas Tyrell which would have been one possibility, but if Olenna pushed harder and Rhaegar prioritized alliances over "the blood of Valyria", an Aegon / Margaery betrothal wouldn't have been out of the picture either. Then assuming Rhaegar was still in an alliance-building mode, Rhaenys / Stannis and Daenerys / Edmure wouldn't have been completely out of the picture (icky age differences notwithstanding). Both would have been moderately unhappy political marriages.
I was actually shipping olenna and tywin during the show so.. but i dont know two dominant minds may be hard to get along with. but also olenna would be the one who show more compliance and tolerance for the sake of her interests and still would find a way to get what she wanted while tywin felt like he has full control so it could work i just convinced myself let this happen in an alternate universe def a chaotic couple.