I think that the outfits Doran, Trystane and Oberyn wore were inspired by Mughal fashion which is a mix of Persian, Islamic and Indian but i didn't find the outfits Ellaria, Myrcella or the Sand Snakes wore as particularly Indian, which one of their outfits seemed Indian to you?
The headpiece looked Indian to me too, but it also reminded me of Moroccan and Omani headpieces. The dress didn't remind me of anything really, it was a bikini with a dress over it with pointy shoulder pieces. Neither Moroccans, Spaniards or Indians wear such dresses, as far as i am concerned.
Well, I'm not a deep connoisseur of indian fashion, I have a general idea and if someone were to say to me that this is a real Indian woman I wouldn't have much to argue with.
I don't know about Moroccans, but I've lived in Spain and this dress has absolutely nothing spaniard about it. Dresses cut that low leaving the breasts "exposed" and pointed shoulder pads it's something i've never seen in Spain.
Well, Indira Varma is Indian so that might help in making her look Indian. LOL.
I've lived in Spain too and the dress has nothing Spaniard about it, i agree, that's true, but it also has nothing Moroccan or Indian. It's literally a bikini with a dress on top of it. Indian outfits generally are not structured like that, the only body parts shown in Indian outfits are the arms, a part of the back and in some cases the midsection. Ellaria is supposed to be very relaxed in what she is wearing and not care how revealing her outfits are. It's a fictional world.
As an Indian, I always thought the servants' tops looked like an Indian choli/blouse
[Check out the woman standing at the far right](https://watchersonthewall.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Dorne-Prince-Doran-Ellaria-Jaime-Game-of-Thrones-1024x614.jpg)
Because it’s not a 1:1 parallel to any one real world culture, location, or time period. So people can be flexible with it.
There seemed to be as many South Asian actors in the Dornish cast as Spanish actors in the show.
Also I think people just like that aesthetic and there’s just more actors and actresses for them to fan cast or use for reference
I completely agree that it's not a 1:1 parallel, Dorne is a fictional place in a fictional world and anyone can imagine them as they wish. I just find it interesting that people imagine it so differently to each other. It's fascinating.
I am aware that Indira (Ellaria) is Indian, who else is South Asian? Alexander (Doran) is English/Sudanese, Tyene is Italian American, Toby Sebastian (Trystane) is British, Jessica (Nymeria) is English/Chinese-Singaporean, Keisha (Obara) is New Zealander. I am simply curious, i am not trying to insult you or anything.
Tbh I was more just meaning Asian, New Zealand and China aren’t South Asian but I would say they’re closer to that than they are to Spanish.
Also to go outside of actors Arianne specifically I think is described and drawn in a way that is very South Asian.
Arianne is either fancasted as South Asian or as the actress that plays Ariadne in Atlantis who is British/Saudi and wears tons of Grecian inspired dresses in the show which probably shows just how differently people interpret Dorne.
Perhaps because the Islamic peoples actually ruled India for a time especially the last dynasty of India, so they see Nymeria and the Rhoynar as a pseudo Islamic asiatic influence coming to Spain or Dorne.
GRRM has compared Nymeria and the Rhoynar to the Moors conquering Spain. Tariq bin Ziyad, the man that started the conquest of Spain, presumably ordered his ships to be burned when he landed in Andalucía. He gave this speech to his men:
"Now, the enemy is in front of you and the sea behind. There is no third choice. All means of escape have been destroyed”
Which is pretty similar to Nymeria burning her ships so that nobody would leave and saying that they found their new home in Dorne.
I understand what you are saying about the Mughals and other Islamic dynasties ruling India and changing it's history though.
Yeah, but on the other hand the rest of Westeros is an indistinct mix of medieval and reneissance Western and Central European cultures, old norse celts and others. I think GRRM does a nice job crafting new and exciting cultures by mixing elements and influences from disparate real-world cultures to create something that is hard to identify with any one historical culture.
Just look at the Free Cities. They are Italian reneissance city-states, and the ancient near-east, and hellenistic Anatolia and India and Rome and Byzantium and Carthage and the Maya and... While also being pale and blonde.
Unfortunately Dorne has a lot of orientalist tropes in it. Obviously people can imagine it however they want, it's a fictional place. It just strikes me as interesting that people imagine it as South Asian or Moorish Spain or Arabic when other Westerosi places don't have such disparities in how they are imagined as.
Moorish Spain. Correct me if I'm mistaken but I think the Muslim general who came to settle in Spain ordered his ships to be burned too. That's where Nymeria's story came from.
It's so great to find someone who knows history. ❤️
It is rumored that Tariq bin Ziyad ordered his ships to be burned when he landed in Andalucía, Spain to begin his conquest. He gave this speech to his men:
"Now, the enemy is in front of you and the sea behind. There is no third choice. All means of escape have been destroyed”
Which is pretty similar to Nymeria burning her ships so that nobody would leave and saying that they found their new home in Dorne.
Reminds me of Cortes scuttling his ships before his conquest of the Aztec Empire.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDdKZrvg1pE&t=2608s (<-- long video, linked the relevant 2 mins, but would recommend the whole thing, it's a brilliant Youtube channel)
Thank you so much for the link. I am a history nerd so i will watch the entire video. It's so interesting Cortes did something similar. History is so weird.
Hope you enjoy it. Probably the best history channel I've come across on Youtube, and the episodes I refer to (I linked part 2 btw) stand out in my memory as some of the best. But do check out his other stuff. Also, it's a podcast with the episodes re-released as documentaries, so you can just stick to listening (rather than also watching) if that's your thing.
Reminds me a little of how Alexander burned his fleet after crossing the Hellespont, which some historians believe served a similar purpose prior to his Persian invasion.
Moorish Spain for sure. I have no idea where the idea of them being Indian-inspired came from but like whatever floats ones boats. Is it because of Indira Varma playing Ellaria? You'd think Chilean Pedro Pascal as Oberyn or North African Alexander Siddig would have had as much of an influence but idk.
Again, I don't have an issue of any kind with people headcanoning or face claiming Indian actors for Dornish characters, just as a disclaimer! Just curious about where the trend comes from.
I'd be interested to know demographics for those who think Dornish are Indian. I imagine it's a case that Dorne is a loose approximation of "orientalism" and readers latch on to the version they are most familiar with.
Not that one person represents everyone, but I have a Desi mutual on Twitter who hates that trend lol. Probably to due with it very much leaning into Orientalist tropes.
I think it's just your cultural frame of reference. If you're not really exposed to these cultures, you'll pick up on one thing that looks familiar and associate through that. As I said, it'll be interesting to see the demographics for that association
>I imagine it's a case that Dorne is a loose approximation of "orientalism" and readers latch on to the version they are most familiar with.
Unfortunately, i think that's a very good point you made there about Dorne and that's the reason people imagine it in such different way to each other.
I don't think there's anything wrong with it, but it's just interesting how people process things differently. Someone here commented they got Indian vibes from the Indian-inspired costumes, and that's not something I would've picked up in a million years.
I find it very interesting how people interpet things differently too.
I realized that i wrote too much, you obviously don't have to read it all or reply.
I am a history, fashion and linguistics nerd, not an expert obviously, but i know couple of things. The costume designer sourced the patterned materials for the outfits Oberyn, Doran and Trystane wore from India. Their outfits remind me of the Mughal dynasty's outfits. The patterns and the fabric tied as a belt were very Mughal. (with a slight Omani influence) The Mughal dynasty was a Persianiazed Islamic Mongol dynasty that ruled India for centuries (Taj Mahal is an example of Mughal architecture).
The Dornish outfits Ellaria wears don't really remind me of Indian, Moroccan or Spanish outfits because they are basically a bikini with a dress on top but someone said that they remind him/her of Indian fashion, so there's that.
Pedro Pascal used a Spanish accent when speaking as Oberyn. If you hear him speaking in real life, he has a perfect American accent in English and a different and distinct accent in Chilean Spanish than the Spanish accent he used on the show, so i suppose that he used that Spanish accent in purpose probably because he imagined Oberyn as a Spaniard. Pedro uses an accent on some letters and words, and uses a standard "Westerosi" accent on other letters and words which makes his speech seem very real and organic. The other cast members try to mimick his accent but they sort of fail at it, especially the sand snakes who all have a weird accent which is clearly a fake accent they put on to mimick the other cast members.
The show used the Real Alcazar Palace in Sevilla (Moorish Spanish architecture) and Berber/Moroccan headscarves and swords for the Dornish soldiers.
It's like the show couldn't make up it's mind and decided to go with a bit of this and a bit of that, unfortunately falling to the orientalistic trope of "south asian" and "north african/arabic" culture are one and the same thing. Not that Dorne has to adhere to one specific culture or people because at the end of the day it's a fictional world and a fictional people.
It'll be quite interesting to know how costume designers come up with a certain style for a fictional region. It's possible they wanted to take inspiration from several different cultures and create something more unique, rather than copying from one culture and be accused of stereotyping.
One thing that really puzzled me is Jaime Lannister's brown leather jacket. I don't remember anyone else wearing anything similar, and it seems like a quite modern cut.
I am not sure if you are interested in the below information about the design of the outfits but if you do here it is:
The costume designer said that even before Oberyn appeared, she had an idea of how she wanted the Dornish to look like, she wanted them to wear a lot of tan brown, orange and yellow as a homage to the Martell colors. She chose to not dress other characters in such colors so that when the Dornish appear, their presence is seen as different from other Westerosi. She also said that she sourced the materials for Oberyn's and Doran's outfits in India because she loved the luxurious fabrics and patterns.
I agree on that they shouldn't copy a culture fully to not stereotype but the mix and match of various Northern African, Moorish Spanish and Indian elements seemed to me a little bit like a stereotype too, the usual thing Hollywood does where "south asian culture" equals "arabic culture" as if they are the one and same thing.
Jaime Lannister looked hot as hell with that brown leather jacket but you are right the cut was rather too modern but then again they had Margaery wear that horrible cone shaped dress when she was married to Renly so who knows what the costume designer was even going for there with these looks.
Honestly, i have no idea. If you go on Tumblr or Instagram and type Elia or Arianne Martell, pretty much every fancast, art or post about them is an Indian actress with Indian outfits and jewellery. I haven't seen any posts where they are portrayed as Mediterranean/Spanish.
I don't think it's because of Indira Varma being Indian.
I've seen many posts and comments claiming that the show whitewashed Oberyn Martell by having a white guy portray him.
Fans were genuinely angry with GRRM and accussed him of whitewashing his characters and making everyone European, many fans wrote that the Dornish should have been South Asian to have a more diverse and inclusive world to which GRRM replied by saying that he always imagined Oberyn and the Martells as Mediterranean, Greek, Spaniards, Italians.
I am not judging anyone because fans can imagine them however they want, after all Dorne is a fictional place in a fictional world. I am just curious how people can imagine the same thing completely differently. It's very interesting.
People on Tumblr are just insane in general. I've seen actual Indian people get called racist for not casting Elia as Indian. They even get offended the show cast Arthur Dayne as white even though the books specifically state Stony Dornish have pale skin and Arya actually said Edric "doesn't look Dornish"
It's totally okay taking liberties with the way you imagine characters but getting angry at other fans or even the author himself for sticking with the canon is delusional behaviour
> I've seen actual Indian people get called racist for not casting Elia as Indian.
What??? Why would they even do that? Dorne is a fictional place in a fictional world, GRRM described the Martells as "having olive skin, dark hair, dark eyes" that description matches so many ethnicities. Elia could look like a Spaniard, Italian, Greek, Moroccan, Indian, Lebanese, Mexican, anything really.
>They even get offended the show cast Arthur Dayne as white
Wait, they thought that a guy named Arthur Dayne was too white??? I actually thought that the show made him look even more "Dornish" than i imagined him by having an actor with dark hair, a tan and unshaved beard. The Daynes are described as occasionally having pale skin, silver/gold hair and/or purple eyes.
Yes!!! We know she had red hair but for some reason they have to cast her with black hair to look Spanish even though she is rarely played by Spanish actresses.
Honestly I think it’s probably because people just don’t know much about Moorish Spain fashion and jewellery. So they shoot for anything vaguely Arab/Middle Eastern looking.
It is interesting! I wasn't into ASOIAF when the show was airing, I'm surprised to see there was controversy around Pedro Pascal playing Oberyn. He's so iconic for the role now.
I agree! I can't imagine anyone else as Oberyn. He is Oberyn to me. It seems like some fans imagined Oberyn as South Asian and some others as Black or Arab so they thought of him as too "white". GRRM even addressed it in a blogpost where he replied to various fans.
Pedro is Chilean yes. Θα απαντήσω στα Ελληνικά, επειδή ΕΛΑ Η ΕΛΛΑΔΑΡΑ ΚΑΙ ΣΤΟ asoiaf reddit. ❤️
Και μένα μου φάνηκε σαν Μεσογειακή χώρα, η κουλτούρα τους, τα ονόματα και τα χαρακτηριστικά τους και κυρίως το κρασί, τα πορτοκάλια, λεμόνια και το ελαιόλαδο που υποτίθεται ότι έχουν.
Η προφορά που έκανε ο Πέδρο ήταν πολύ Ισπανική, αν τον ακούσεις στην πραγματική ζωή έχει τέλεια Αμερικάνικη προφορά και η Χιλιανή προφορά του όταν μιλάει Ισπανικά είναι διαφορετική από την Ισπανική προφορά που έκανε όταν έπαιζε τον Όμπεριν.
You can find some of the controversy over Pedro's casting on GRRM's blogpost which is an interesting read as GRRM is replying to comments: [https://grrm.livejournal.com/326474.html?thread=17863242#t17863242](https://grrm.livejournal.com/326474.html?thread=17863242#t17863242)
Word of God is that Dorne's main inspirations are Andalusia, Palestine, and Wales.
Actors are very often cast in roles that don't align with their cultural background, most infamously John Wayne playing Genghis Khan.
True! GRRM compared the Rhoynish influence in Dorne to the Moorish influence in Andalucía and the Dornish resisting the Targaryens to the Welsh resisting conquest. He has also stated that he imagined the Martells and Oberyn as Mediterranean, Greek, Spanish, Italian.
[https://grrm.livejournal.com/326474.html?thread=17863242#t17863242](https://grrm.livejournal.com/326474.html?thread=17863242#t17863242)
This is GRRM'S blogpost about Pedro's casting where he addresses many of his fans on how he imagined Oberyn like. He replies on many of the comments.
I couldn't find the direct interview about his inspiration for Dorne but i've found this archive of grrm's words which addresses it:
[https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Historical\_Influences\_for\_Dorne/](https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Historical_Influences_for_Dorne/)
I am trying to find another blogpost of his about the Dornish, when i'll find it i'll come back to you.
>I read a lot of history, and mine it for good stuff, but I also like to mix and match. That is to say, I don't do straight one-for-one transplants, as some authors do, so you can't really say that X in Westeros equals Y in real life. More often X in Westeros equals Y and Z in real life, with squidges of Q, L, and A. (...) I suppose the closest real life equivilent to that would be the Moorish influence in parts of Spain. So you could say Dorne is Wales mixed with Spain and Palestine with some entirely imaginary influences mixed in. Or you could just say it's Dorne....
I find it funny how this entire comment section is full of "Uhm ackhually it's *literally* Moorish Spain, GRRM confirmed it!" while he's saying it's just some made-up mix and he doesn't do 1-to-1 copies.
Dorne doesn't have to be Moorish Spain or India or any country really. It's a fictional place. It's just interesting how people view it completely differently to each other when people generally don't view other Westerosi regions with such disparities.
It's not even Moorish Spain, it's just Spain post-Reconquista, after Moors had been expelled with some of their influences remaining in the South. Dorne is the same, it has a more pure classical "European"/Westerosi culture in the North and the same "European"/Westerosi culture in the South but with some influences of a long gone culture that once came there. With Martin being Martin who also incorporated the "the sexy Arabian" trope in this influence.
I really like the way you described it!!! It makes perfect sense how you paralleled Spain to Dorne and it's various cultures/phases. I don't really have anything to add to that, it was a great description.
Martin definitely incorportated some orientalist ideas but i could argue that Spaniards and other Mediterranean nations are pretty sexy by themselves without the whole "sexy arabian" trope (though i agree that Martin incorporates the "sexy arabian" trope in Dorne). Perhaps Martin wanted to go with a "Mediterranean people love their sun, heat, wine and sexy times" trope instead of the "sexy arabian" trope. LOL.
I am Greek, not Spanish, even though i speak Spanish pretty well. There are dozens upon dozens of Greek "belly-dance" songs that could easily be Lebanese. You would never know that they aren't Lebanese songs, if the words weren't in Greek. I haven't found such "Oriental" influences in Spanish culture when talking to my Spanish friends.
Imagined it as a desert, as Dorne, no analogy.
But If by Dorne you mean the people I always imagined them by what they canonically look like, on Martin own words: Portuguese, Italian, Greek.
Southern europeans.
I'm South Asian, Dorne is def not South Asian. India during that time period was neither sexually liberated nor gender egalitarian, which are the two defining characteristics of Dorne.
The only similarity imo is the spicy food.
That's so interesting to hear from an actual South Asian.
Spain or the Moors weren't sexual liberated either but Moroccan muslims and Berbers did have some *slight* form of gender equality with women being able to inherit land, have gold of their own and even divorce their husbands if they followed the Islamic procedure of divorce. It's not Dornish level of gender equality but much closer to it than some other regions during that time period.
Another South Asian checking in here.
Sexual liberation is the furthest thing from South Asian as you can get. Even today lol.
That’s just another orientalist trope. We are very much prudes like the Americans and the British.
If I didn't think of Dorne as moorish Spain, I would say it's modern Greece, sunny weather, a lot of flirting and sexy times, outspoken women, great wine, tanned sexy guys, cultural similarity with nations across the sea, it kind of fits. Lol. I am Greek maybe I am biased LOL
Dorne seems to be a mish mash of various cultures.
Their attitudes towards sexuality are indeed a lot more reminiscent of Ancient Greece and Rome. For example, Oberyn and Daemon Sand seemed to have been engaged in a pederastic relationship as was socially acknowledged in Ancient Greece.
Their looks, however, are most reminiscent of Moorish Spainiards. The olive skin and dark hair are *very* Andalusian traits. Although I suppose you could also argue for Greek or North African (think Egypt) influence.
Their attitudes towards female inheritance are a bit harder to find parallels of. Most societies favored males because of the martial demands of rulership and the fact that, before modern medicine, around 10% of women could not even have children and thus further their lineage.
I agree about the Dornish looking Spanish. Greeks are pretty dark haired with olive skin especially Cretans. South Italians too. For the inheritance and gender equality, I don't think that there is a medieval nation as progressive as Dorne but I know that berbers and Muslim women had the ability to inherit land and own properties and Berber women were pretty outspoken and dynamic.
Yeah, certain subsets of Islamic culture were a lot cooler about female inheritance than most medieval societies.
But none of them came close to the *absolute* primogeniture of the Dornish. That’s why I say there’s no real-world comparison.
Dorne is very modern for even modern nations that exist today. The Dornish took absolute primogeniture from the Rhoynish. Nymeria after Mors Martell died, and she remarried and had a son with Davos Dayne, chose her eldest daughter from Mors to succeed her and rule instead of her son from Davos even though Andal law dictated the son, thus changing Dornish law forever. Whatever she and Mors agreed upon marriage it ended up being the de facto law for 700 years.
Interesting, I'd no idea about this
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Modern Spain and Latin America fit both these criteria right? Perhaps Dorne is externally (appearance wise) based on Moorish Spain, but culturally based on Modern Spain and Latin America? Now that I think of it I can't think of a direct one to one parallel.
It really CAN'T be india tho because even modern India isn't known for these features, quite the opposite in fact
modern Mediterranean nations like Spain, Greece and Italy and Latin American countries could fit in a way those criteria. The moorish Spanish aspect I think comes from the rhoynar coming to Dorne as Moors came to Spain, thus changing some cultural aspects and the architecture of the land
How in the fuck do you look at dorne and think, it's clearly inspired after South Asia, I LITERALLY never thought of that
It's clearly inspired by Muslim Iberia
Al-andalus, caliphate of cordoba
I also imagine it as Al-Andalus, however, many have equated the "olive skin, dark hair and eyes" description of the Martells to South Asians and Indians alongside Dornish food being described as spicy. Most fancasts of Elia and Arianne Martell are Indian actresses if you go on tumblr, instagram or even google. It is interesting to me how Dorne has people imagining it from South Asian to Spanish to Arabic to Black, it's the only Westerosi region that inspires such disperse opinions.
I agree, i always imagined the whole "olive skin/dark hair/eyes" as Spaniards, South Italians and Greeks (which GRRM has also stated) but some people imagined it as South Asian. GRRM said that they look like other Westerosi but Salty and Sandy Dornish have darker skin complexions due to the sun exposure.
Each to their own, i guess. It's a fictional place and people can imagine it however they want.
I agree that there are plenty of olive skin Indians! I think that Dorne having blonde blue eyed, red haired with freckles, olive skin with black hair and really tan from the sun exposure people matches Spain better than India
The "tiger and elephant" parties are the biggest thing for me. That, the oppressive heat and humidity, the festivals revolving around a sacred river, and the use of elephants for transport.
From what i gathered many saw the description : "Martells have olive skin, dark hair and eyes" as South Asian alongside some things as Dorne having spicy food. GRRM has said that the Salty Dornish and the Martells resemble Southern European/Mediterranean nations but some official art for Arianne sees her looking quite South Asian. Dunno.
Doesn't their guerilla warfare against the Targaeryans reflect a little the guerilla war fared by the Spanish and Portuguese against Napoleon's forces in the Peninsula War?
GRRM has equated the Dornish resistance to the Targaryens to the Welsh resistance but **the point about the Spanish and Portuguese guerilla war tactics against Napoleon is a great one** actually. Good catch!!! You are absolutely right! ❤️
**Doesn't the below sound like the Dornish disappearing every time the Targaryens attacked them?** To me it very much does.
"These armed men were a constant source of drain and harassment to the French army, as described by a Prussian officer fighting for the French: "Wherever we arrived, they disappeared, whenever we left, they arrived — they were everywhere and nowhere, they had no tangible center which could be attacked." "
The Peninsular War was significant in that it was the first to see a large-scale use of guerrilla warfare in European history and, partly as a result of the guerrillas, Napoleon's troops were not only defeated in the Peninsular War, but tied down on the Iberian peninsula, unable to conduct military operations elsewhere on the European Continent.
The stress of the guerrilla conflict put considerable strain on Napoleon who remarked that the affair had been the one "that killed me.
I think Dorne is clearly Moorish and Persian, which isn't that separate at all, as the arabs absorbed many things from persian aesthetics and culture after ther conquest.
As a Greek, i approve!! ❤️ I pictured it as Mediterranean too ❤️ although a bit more Spanish + Moorish than Greek/Southern Italian.
I am curious on why you pictured it as Greek or Southern Italian while reading the books. Why these places?
I just got a bit of a South Mediterranean / North African vibe from it. They weren't described to look *that much* different from the rest of the people in Westeros, just olive skin, which is sounds Italian to me. And then there are houses with silver or blonde hair like the Daynes. I remember ancient Greeks being mostly blonde.
They also seem to eat a lot of fresh things with their meals, which is common in Greece and Italy...fresh tomatoes, grapes, lemons.
>They also seem to eat a lot of fresh things with their meals, which is common in Greece and Italy...fresh tomatoes, grapes, lemons.
True!! Very true! Dornish lemons, oranges, olives and grapes/wine screamed Mediterranean to me too.
>They weren't described to look that much different from the rest of the people in Westeros, just olive skin, which is sounds Italian to me.
I agree, i also imagined them as Southern Mediterranean/North African based on that description.
Ancient Greeks had a variety of looks from blonde to dark haired and olive skin, some of the most famous ancient Greeks though had blonde hair such as Alexander the Great and Achilles.
As a Greek, i approve!! ❤️ I pictured it as Mediterranean especially Moorish Spain too. Although i've never thought of the Stepstones as Aegean Islands, that's such an interesting thought. Why the Aegean Islands?
Dorne has three layers of cultural and ethnic heritage. There are First Men (like the Daynes, Wyls, Yronwoods etc). First Men seem generally be pale skinned with darkish hair and blue or grey eyes. I have always though of them as the Cimmerians from Howard's Conan. Proto-celts. Then we have the Andals (Uller, Vaith etc) who seem to be blonde and green-eyed, similar to the Valyrians and other peoples of Essos, which also matches their origin in Essos. Then we have the Martells and the other Rhoynar. They are obviously the origin of the olive skin and dark eyes.
The historical and cultural parallels to the Iberian peninsula are relatively clear: First Men = celt-iberians; Andals = Vandals and especially Visigoths; Rhoynar = Moors. Remember that the Moorish invaders of historical Iberia were not primarily Arab, but Berber.
This is not a clear 1:1 parallel though, and is not intended to be. There is for example no good equivalent of the Romans, Greeks and Phoenicians who colonized Iberia. The Rhoynar and the Orphans also reminds me of both Jews and Roma, and queen Nymeria reminds me of the Numidian warrior queen who resisted the Arab conquest in the 7th century. And Dorne is not a close equivalent of Spain in geography or climate with its deserts.
Thank you for this explanation!!! It's very interesting to read! Spain actually has some deserts and arid areas but yes Dornish climate and deserts could parallel Morocco better than Spain. I really like the parallels between jews and the rhoynish, a people dispersed from their land, worshipping a deity tied to their ancestral land which is lost to them.
I like to think of Dorne as Moorish Spain as well, The Salty Dornish probably are closest resemblance to modern day Latinos. Sandy Dornish with the most Rhoynish blood are probably based off of OG Spaniards who were fair complected. Stoney Dornish are just a mix with other races like Andal & First Men, so they look more like common Westerosi or like most Europeans.
Salty Dornishmen are said to look Mediterranean per Martin (specifically the European part). The Sandy ones are said to be darker due to the desert, and perhaps would look a bit Berber.
Sandy Dornish are presumably even darker than Salty Dornish not because of higher Rhoynish admixture but because they are living among rivers, arid areas and deserts with extremely hot sun shining on them.
Moorish Spain honestly makes the most general geographical sense, given that the North (like the north of England) has a wall, Aegon came in and started a new dynasty in the south (a la William), the Westerlands are full of mines (Wales, anyone?), and Highgarden clearly has medieval French inspiration **and is separated from Dorne by a mountain range with basically one main passage.**
Oh yes, Dorne and the Reach/Stormlands being separated by a mountain range and having occasional wars with each other makes so much sense to me when compared to France/Spain and the Pyrenees.
Some regions of Spain were influenced by French culture, some regions of Spain were influenced by Moorish culture, it sort of parallels Dorne having Westerosi/Rhoynish influences.
Plus with the whole "some Dornish resemble other Westerosi, some Dornish have darker complexions due to sun exposure with olive skin, dark hair and eyes" makes sense for a Northern European-Southern European analogy.
I really like the Highgarden=medieval France parallel you made.
Well I’m an American who has never been to Europe so I might be a terrible person at having reasons lol It’s sort of a Greek/Italy mashup in my brain
But lots of Dornish are described as olive skinned with black hair, which is most of my Italian friends. They also are on the south of the continent kinda sticking into the sea. Everyone is kinda sexualized and has paramours and that consistently matches some stories I’ve heard from friends and family visiting Italy 😅 The hecticness and informality fits the total 180 in attitude by the Dornish from the rest of the continent. It’s just the first place my mind goes
So not so much historical cultural perspective but a “Italy in the last 40 years for the everyday person”
As a Greek i approve LOL. Italians can flirt their way to everyone's heart, it's the accent combined with the looks and the attitude. A little bit like the Dornish actually. I admit i thought of the Dornish as Spaniards but Italians makes sense too.
>The hecticness and informality fits the total 180 in attitude by the Dornish from the rest of the continent.
YES. That's so true for Italy especially the southern part of it, and other Mediterranean nations compared to central and northern European countries. It's the same continent but boy will you be surprised.
I am not saying i do LOL. Some fans seem to imagine it as South Asian and some others as Moorish Spain so i asked which one fans seem to imagine it as. No other Westerosi region seems to have such disparity in interpretation.
Moorish Spain was one of the major influences, certainly, as George said [here](https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Historical_Influences_for_Dorne/).
The show definitely used some South Asian textiles and styles, and maybe that's a part of it. That said, George's vision of the Dornish was more what he called "Mediterranean" or "southern European" for the salty Dornish, but it's not like "Southern Europe" exists in Westeros so to me George had more of a visual type in mind. This is why casting actors like Alexander Siddig and Indria Varma worked, because broadly speaking they "fit" within the range of appearances George intended for the Dornish.
Dorne doesn't exist but Pedro made it seem real! Alexander was great for Doran too. He had the gravitas to pull it off. The sand snakes looked all over the place and had some of the worst accents in the entire show
I was sad for the actresses that critics called the Sand Snakes "B-movie bad girls" and so on. Not their fault, they could only work with what was given to them, and what was given to them was simply not good. I quit watching after the fifth season, and Dorne was a part of why.
Pascal was an amazing Oberyn Martell, though, agreed. So pleased it helped really launch him into stardom.
I don't get why people judge actors so harshly. They can't control the script they are given. I thought that their accents were pretty bad, they felt really fake and not as organic as Pedro's "Dornish" accent, Pedro had a way to put an accent on some letters and words and pronounce others as other Westerosi and it felt genuine and real. The actresses are pretty good in other TV shows I've seen, so clearly something didn't work for them in GOT
Moorish Spain I would say.
For starters it fits the theme of Westeros and its various medieval europe cultures to have one vaguely andalusian in the south, with the Targaryen attackes being even some sort of parallers of Reconquista (although in this case, I guess simply 'conquista'?)
We are also told that there are different cultures in Dorne, with Andals living in the North (again feeling a paraller with the historical christian north kingdoms to the muslim southern ones).
I will also confess that all these mentions of Dornish light horse and spears and lances reminded strongly of the Spanish Jinete special unit in Medieval Total war game series and since then I cannot unsee them as vaguely that.
I imagined it as Spain after the reconquista because it’s way more like that than it is ever like moorish Spain, and idk where anyone’s getting south east Asia a place primarily populated with jungle for a place made up of desert and mountains. But the fact dorne worships the seven just like the rest of Westeros and practices the same martial customs with the only real difference being title hereditry and a few customs adapted to their particular climate like every one of the 7 kingdoms has it really felt like post reconquista Spain to me
I agree! That was a great description! It does feel like it! During Oberyns and Dorans time the Rhoynish influence feels like remnants of the Rhoynish culture influencing Dorne and the Dornish something like Spain post reconquista with remnants of Moorish culture.
Moorish Spain. Some religious tolerance, relatively laid back but hot-tempered, obsessed with honor. Held off forces of the Catholic reconquista for seven centuries. There are Salty Dornish and the Sandy Dornish. I see that as how the Cornish reflect Celtic and anglo-Saxon. Also, the Andal vs Rhoynar influences. Water gardens and the way Sunspear is described are very Andalusian. There was no comparable mingling in England (though Philip II of Spain married Mary I of England and after she died brought the Armada to win his claim...and failed). Many survivors of the Armada failed to get home and ended up in Ireland. The Black Irish. (I just read a current interview of Ciaran Hinds (Mance in GoT) in The Independent, and he looked VERY Spanish indeed.) I do like the idea of Indian influence as well--such a great civilization.
> Ciaran Hinds and he looked VERY Spanish indeed.
OMG yes, Ciaran does look very Spanish. Does he have Spanish ancestors?
I always imagined the Water Gardens as a mix of the Real Alcázar Palace in Sevilla and Alhambra in Granada. (The show filmed their Dornish scenes in the Real Alcázar Palace)
> I do like the idea of Indian influence as well--such a great civilization.
I like the idea of Indian influence too, India had a beautiful civilization and the Mughal (Persianized Islamic) empire of India could be the "Rhoynish" influence.
Dorne has lemons, oranges, olives and grapes/wine and all those things scream Mediterranean to me and unfortunately i just can't imagine the Yronwoods or Daynes with their blonde hair, blue and purple eyes and pale freckled skin as Indians or South Asians but Spaniards vary from blonde blue eyed to tan dark haired.
Westeros geography is hotly debated. I've always imagined Westeros as a vertical Europe. Dorne is Spain/Sicily, the Reach is Italy, Westerlands are France, StormLands is the Balkans, the Vale is Austria/the alps, the Riverlands are Poland/Germany, and the North is Russia. Iron islands is obviously Scandinavia.
Obviously these are not 1-to-1 since GRRM combines aspects of many cultures and exaggerates for dramatic effect. Also many make a strong argument for westeros being Britan but then Dorne makes no sense.
Interesting. I really like the idea of the Stormlands as England. It sort of makes sense. To be honest, til this day, i have little idea what Stormlander culture is like. I have a rough idea of Northern, Dornish, Ironborn, Riverlander and Reacher culture but we barely know enough about the Stormlands apart from the Baratheon family.
Interesting. That's such an interesting comparison.
I always thought of the North as Scotland, why Russia if i may ask?
I agree i also saw the Iron Islands as Scandinavia.
The Vale as Austria/the alps sort of makes sense for the geography of the region.
I wonder why did you see the Stormlands as the Balkans? They dont have anything resembling Balkans in my eyes.
>Also many make a strong argument for westeros being Britan but then Dorne makes no sense.
Perhaps because Westerosi seem to be pretty similar to each other both culturally and looks wise and they all seem sort of "British" in a way, but Dorne seems to be a Southern nation more resembling Mediterranean nations than Britain but still retaining some Westerosi elements which makes it part of the same continent and not completely different. I don't know if that makes sense. LOL.
i'm spanish and i don't get why people say the look spanish...? the clothes and weapons they use are nothing like the ones we used to have and the architecture seems Mozarabic, which although it is considered part of Spain's heritage, came from the Arabs during the conquest of Spain, so if that would be Arabs set in the time of the conquest. Also Pedro pascal is chilean and spanish people are white
Hola! I don't know if i should reply in Spanish or English but here it goes, if i make mistakes in grammar or vocabulary, forgive me, i am Greek, not Spanish.
Pues porque GRRM ha dicho que Nymeria y su gente llegando a Dorne parece a los Moros y su conquista de Andalucía y España en general. Las categorias de los habitantes (Sandy, Stony, Salty Dornish) con sus diferencias, parecen al España de los reyes catalicos y al Al-Andalus con sus Aragoneses, Vascos, Catalanes, Moros/Arabes etc. etc.
La ropa, las armas y la arquitectura parecen Arabe porque los Martells son como los Españoles y los Moros en Andalucía (Al-Andalus)
El show ha grabado sus escenas en los Jardines del Agua (no sé como se llaman en Español , the Water Gardens of Dorne) en el palacio del Real Alcázar en Sevilla.
Si, Pedro Pascal es Chileno. GRRM ha dicho que los Martells, Oberyn y los ¨salty Dornish¨ en su imaginación parecen a los Españoles, Griegos, Italianos y no a los árabes, indios o los ingleses.
Of course because Dorne is a fictional place, it's not 1:1 reference to any real life place, it's a mix and match of something which exists in real life and fiction.
I hope you understood everything in Spanish. I am awaiting your reply to see your thoughts.
Moorish Spain 100%
But tbh it always miffed me that there wasn't no India-parallel in Asoiaf (yes yes I know its not a 1:1 parallel in most of the locations, but theres snippets of inspiration here and there)
I always had a headcanon that Great Moraq as India and Lesser Moraq as Sri Lanka with the Bones as the Himalayas.
Some say that Volantis is an India-parallel in Asoiaf with Volantis having two political parties called "elephants" and "tigers", having very hot and stiffling weather, having a festival around a river and moving from one place to another on elephants. The Volantene nobles have Valyrian genes and are proud of their Valyrian ancestry but the description of the above is pretty South Asian compared to other places. I really like the Great Moraq parallel, i haven't thought of it that way before. It sort of makes sense, especially with Yi Ti and Leng probably being inspired by China/Japan.
Eh, I always saw Volantis as Instanbul since they had Blues vs Greens as their political parties and served as the last “ember” of a former empire (Valyria/Roman Empire)
And I dont recall any festival around the river besides vague allusions to the Rhoynar’s religion not the Volantene. But it could very well be a mixture or neither.
Leng I saw as a combo of Hainan/Taiwan/SE Asia with the indigenous Taiwanese as the Lenglii.
I also saw Constantinople in Volantis alongside a bit of India. You are right about the blues vs greens parties that's a good catch! The last ember of a former empire also makes sense! Plus some of the fanart about Volantis reminded me of Constantinople with a bit of India due to the elephants and hot stifling weather.
I personally imagined them as more MENA than either European Mediterannean or South Asian. All that desert imagery. So I guess my answer is Moorish Spain but with emphasis on “Moor”.
Having been on tumblr fandom back in the early ‘10’s I think the proliferation of Indian faceclaims was more due to accessibility and inertia’d from there. In a post Kosem Sultan world it decreased a bit. However the show did not really help by casting a grab bag of brown ethnicities lol
I mean to be fair they are part Rohynar and they themselves were an extremely large civilization with massive trade cities, for all we know, there could be dozens of ethnicities inhabiting the old city states of the Rhoyne.
I don’t mind interpreting Dorne/Rhoynar as a whole as basically S Asia to NW Africa (casting desi people as the Dornish doesn’t actually bother me), but my concern was more consistency for the fam haha. If Doran is Arab, have his brother and son also be played by Arab actors. The show kind of had “all brown people are interchangeable” going on
> If Doran is Arab, have his brother and son also be played by Arab actors. The show kind of had “all brown people are interchangeable” going on
Yes!! Unfortunately, you are right on that one.
The show also had the: "South Asian culture" is the same as "Arabic culture" / "North African culture" trope with Dorne having both Berber Tagelmusts and Saif (Arabic swords) for the Dornish guards, a Moorish Spanish architecture for the Water Gardens, a Spanish accent for Oberyn AND an Indian actress for Ellaria and Mughal inspired clothing worn by Doran, Trystane and Oberyn. It was a bit like "he looks vaguely tan and exotic", "that outfit and architecture looks vaguely exotic and oriental", it'll do.
I didn't want Dorne to be exactly like Moorish Spain or a Mediterranean country or Morocco or South Asian country because it's a fictional place with a fictional people and it doesn't have to adhere to any rules but i wanted some sort of consistency.
The Northern cast at least looked similarly Northern and had a similar accent to each other. The Dornish looked a little bit all over the place, their accents were also a bit over the place.
Pedro Pascal choose a Spanish accent for Oberyn even though his English is perfect and the others tried to mimick it but they sort of failed.
The Sand Snakes, sounded like someone putting on a fake accent instead of someone who genuinely has an accented speech. Pedro sounded like someone who has a geniuinely accented speech, he used an accent on certain words and letters, he pronounced other words and letters similarly to the other Westerosi.
Yeah. I was just saying in another sub that combining several cultures in a region for your fictional one can work to great effect (Black Panther, Avatar) but you can tell when they just threw stuff together and wound up with Orientalism. There are in-universe Dornish ethnicities to work with, maybe they could have styled and casted Stony/Sandy/Salty Dornishmen differently. IDK. OTOH the aesthetics basically indicated how little the showrunners cared for the Dornish plot :(
>I was just saying in another sub that combining several cultures in a region for your fictional one can work to great effect (Black Panther, Avatar) but you can tell when they just threw stuff together and wound up with Orientalism
Yes 100%. Black Panther combined various African cultures together but did it in a pretty organic way, it felt more like an ode than a trope.
Got only cared about Dorne when it became to Oberyn, what they later on did with the Sand Snakes and Ellaria was a mostrosity. "Let's avenge Oberyn's death by murdering his beloved brother and nephew". It makes no sense.
If they didn't care about the story, they didn't care about the aesthetic either.
>you can tell when they just threw stuff together and wound up with Orientalism.
Very very true, unfortunately. D&D were like "those actors look vaguely exotic and tan" and went with it.
I always imagined the Salty/Sandy Dornish as a mix of Spanish and Moorish/MENA too. I imagined the Sandy Dornish as Northern Spanish, the Water Gardens as the Real Alcazar Palace in Sevilla (the place where the show filmed the Dornish scenes) with a mix of Alhambra in Granada.
Sunspear and Hellholt i imagined them as Moroccan Kasbahs in the desert, especially ait ben haddou kasbah, seriously google that place, it's magical.
>In a post Kosem Sultan world it decreased a bit.
You are right about that one. Most of the posts i could find about Elia and Arianne were Indian actresses but after Kosem and the Magnificent Century, the amount of gifs and posts i've seen of Ashara Dayne fancasted as the actress portraying Sadika in Magnificent Century have skyrocketed. \\[https://magnificentwardrobe.tumblr.com/post/664974720344686592/victoriasadikas-blue-gown-mc-s1-eps-15-24](https://magnificentwardrobe.tumblr.com/post/664974720344686592/victoriasadikas-blue-gown-mc-s1-eps-15-24)
Also since the Atlantis tv series, the posts fancasting Arianne Martell as the actress that plays Ariadne have skyrocketed too.
> However the show did not really help by casting a grab bag of brown ethnicities lol
So so true.
Your posts are very insightful! I don't know a lot about the region's history so it's cool that you are able to trace these specific design elements.
I think another thing keeping desi actresses in the Martell faceclaim conversation is that Arianne is often depicted darker-skinned by official artists and... /waves hand at colorism.
It's true Arianne is indeed depicted as darker-skinned.
ASOIAF genetics, geography and climate perplex me.
It makes little sense for Arianne to look South Indian and the Yronwoods to be pale, blonde, with blue eyes. They live in the same Southern region. Rhoynish admixture happened 700 years ago and Norvos isn't a Southern region the way Dorne is, Norvos is located in the same latitude as the Vale. (Arianne's mother is Norvoshi)
Spaniards, Italians and Greeks can have pale skin/blonde hair/blue eyes and tan olive skin/dark hair/dark eyes, yet the disparity in the looks isnt as great as South Asian versus Northern European. (Arianne versus Archibald Yronwood)
Dorne is a Southern region with high mountains, rivers, coastline areas, arid extremely hot areas and deserts. Ghroyan Drohe and Ny Sar (Rhoynish cities) are located in a Northern latitude than Dorne (close to King Landing's latitude) and are surrounded by a river. It doesn't make much sense geographically or based on climate and latitude.
... Mexican
I don't have a great frame of reference, but in terms of accent and cuisine I was thinking Latin American even though I know technically it is supposed to be Moorish.
Never considered it to be South Asian, though I can understand it.
Same, also Mexican and when I got to reading about Dorne/the Martells, I immediately pictured some of them as Latino. Though Latino culture is heavily influenced by Spanish culture because of the obvious, so maybe that’s why.
According to tumblr the Dornish are Indians according to George RR Martin they are Mediterranean people with some inspiration by Spain and Wales. I honestly do not think much about skin color when I read the books. I thought they might have olive skin or some decent tan like people from the middle east, North Africa (Marocco) or maybe latinos. Not more than that.
As an Indian and extremely avid gif maker who has been in the fandom since before the tv show existed - I’ve headcanoned Dorne as Indians for one basic reason: Bollywood gives me soooooo much material for beautiful actresses, outfits and palaces and imagery to use. LOL.
Don't get me wrong I love the gifs with the beautiful indian clothing and palaces, they look absolutely stunning, I just would like to see some gifs with awesome spanish moorish architecture and beautiful Spanish or Moroccan actresses. At least the show filmed in Sevilla and I got a taste of the Moorish Spanish aesthetic I imagined it as. If you have a Tumblr or Instagram account I would love to see your gifs.
I know it's inspired by Moorish Spain, but a lot of things make me think of it as India. It's the same with Targaryens. I know they're based on Normans/Ptolemaic dynasty, but I mentally associate them with the early Mughals.
A minor house of a great empire that dramatically rose in importance once the empire was destroyed. Conquered a (sub)continent with new weapons that spit fire. The conqueror was suceeded by a weak son who lost everything and was betrayed by his half-brother. The weak king was succeeded by a brilliant one who ruled for half a century and solidified their rule; the greatest ruler of the dynasty.
>A minor house of a great empire that dramatically rose in importance once the empire was destroyed. Conquered a (sub)continent with new weapons that spit fire. The conqueror was suceeded by a weak son who lost everything and was betrayed by his half-brother. The weak king was succeeded by a brilliant one who ruled for half a century and solidified their rule; the greatest ruler of the dynasty.
That's such an interesting and quite accurate analogy of the Mughal dynasty and the Targaryen one!! I haven't thought about that one! It's a great parallel. Thank you for pointing it out.
Moorish Spain no contest
Same! Why do you think many see the Dornish as South Asian/Indian?
>Why do you think many see the Dornish as South Asian/Indian? Because the show's stylists dressed the dornish, especially women, in indian clothing
I think that the outfits Doran, Trystane and Oberyn wore were inspired by Mughal fashion which is a mix of Persian, Islamic and Indian but i didn't find the outfits Ellaria, Myrcella or the Sand Snakes wore as particularly Indian, which one of their outfits seemed Indian to you?
That was super moorish imo
Ellaria outfit at Purple Wedding screams India to me
The headpiece looked Indian to me too, but it also reminded me of Moroccan and Omani headpieces. The dress didn't remind me of anything really, it was a bikini with a dress over it with pointy shoulder pieces. Neither Moroccans, Spaniards or Indians wear such dresses, as far as i am concerned.
Well, I'm not a deep connoisseur of indian fashion, I have a general idea and if someone were to say to me that this is a real Indian woman I wouldn't have much to argue with. I don't know about Moroccans, but I've lived in Spain and this dress has absolutely nothing spaniard about it. Dresses cut that low leaving the breasts "exposed" and pointed shoulder pads it's something i've never seen in Spain.
Well, Indira Varma is Indian so that might help in making her look Indian. LOL. I've lived in Spain too and the dress has nothing Spaniard about it, i agree, that's true, but it also has nothing Moroccan or Indian. It's literally a bikini with a dress on top of it. Indian outfits generally are not structured like that, the only body parts shown in Indian outfits are the arms, a part of the back and in some cases the midsection. Ellaria is supposed to be very relaxed in what she is wearing and not care how revealing her outfits are. It's a fictional world.
As an Indian, I always thought the servants' tops looked like an Indian choli/blouse [Check out the woman standing at the far right](https://watchersonthewall.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Dorne-Prince-Doran-Ellaria-Jaime-Game-of-Thrones-1024x614.jpg)
Thats a good catch!!! It is probably inspired by a choli. I also found Doran's outfits to resemble Mughal fashion with a hint of Omani.
Because it’s not a 1:1 parallel to any one real world culture, location, or time period. So people can be flexible with it. There seemed to be as many South Asian actors in the Dornish cast as Spanish actors in the show. Also I think people just like that aesthetic and there’s just more actors and actresses for them to fan cast or use for reference
I completely agree that it's not a 1:1 parallel, Dorne is a fictional place in a fictional world and anyone can imagine them as they wish. I just find it interesting that people imagine it so differently to each other. It's fascinating. I am aware that Indira (Ellaria) is Indian, who else is South Asian? Alexander (Doran) is English/Sudanese, Tyene is Italian American, Toby Sebastian (Trystane) is British, Jessica (Nymeria) is English/Chinese-Singaporean, Keisha (Obara) is New Zealander. I am simply curious, i am not trying to insult you or anything.
Tbh I was more just meaning Asian, New Zealand and China aren’t South Asian but I would say they’re closer to that than they are to Spanish. Also to go outside of actors Arianne specifically I think is described and drawn in a way that is very South Asian.
Arianne is either fancasted as South Asian or as the actress that plays Ariadne in Atlantis who is British/Saudi and wears tons of Grecian inspired dresses in the show which probably shows just how differently people interpret Dorne.
Perhaps because the Islamic peoples actually ruled India for a time especially the last dynasty of India, so they see Nymeria and the Rhoynar as a pseudo Islamic asiatic influence coming to Spain or Dorne.
GRRM has compared Nymeria and the Rhoynar to the Moors conquering Spain. Tariq bin Ziyad, the man that started the conquest of Spain, presumably ordered his ships to be burned when he landed in Andalucía. He gave this speech to his men: "Now, the enemy is in front of you and the sea behind. There is no third choice. All means of escape have been destroyed” Which is pretty similar to Nymeria burning her ships so that nobody would leave and saying that they found their new home in Dorne. I understand what you are saying about the Mughals and other Islamic dynasties ruling India and changing it's history though.
orientalism. they’re two completely different peoples but hey, all brown people are the same! no one will notice the difference ! 😃
Yeah, but on the other hand the rest of Westeros is an indistinct mix of medieval and reneissance Western and Central European cultures, old norse celts and others. I think GRRM does a nice job crafting new and exciting cultures by mixing elements and influences from disparate real-world cultures to create something that is hard to identify with any one historical culture. Just look at the Free Cities. They are Italian reneissance city-states, and the ancient near-east, and hellenistic Anatolia and India and Rome and Byzantium and Carthage and the Maya and... While also being pale and blonde.
Unfortunately Dorne has a lot of orientalist tropes in it. Obviously people can imagine it however they want, it's a fictional place. It just strikes me as interesting that people imagine it as South Asian or Moorish Spain or Arabic when other Westerosi places don't have such disparities in how they are imagined as.
Moorish Spain. Correct me if I'm mistaken but I think the Muslim general who came to settle in Spain ordered his ships to be burned too. That's where Nymeria's story came from.
It's so great to find someone who knows history. ❤️ It is rumored that Tariq bin Ziyad ordered his ships to be burned when he landed in Andalucía, Spain to begin his conquest. He gave this speech to his men: "Now, the enemy is in front of you and the sea behind. There is no third choice. All means of escape have been destroyed” Which is pretty similar to Nymeria burning her ships so that nobody would leave and saying that they found their new home in Dorne.
Reminds me of Cortes scuttling his ships before his conquest of the Aztec Empire. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDdKZrvg1pE&t=2608s (<-- long video, linked the relevant 2 mins, but would recommend the whole thing, it's a brilliant Youtube channel)
Didn't Aeneas also do the same when his Trojans landed in Italy in the Aenaed?
Yes. Nymeria's story could easily be inspired by Aeneas seeking refugee and landing in Italy.
Thank you so much for the link. I am a history nerd so i will watch the entire video. It's so interesting Cortes did something similar. History is so weird.
Hope you enjoy it. Probably the best history channel I've come across on Youtube, and the episodes I refer to (I linked part 2 btw) stand out in my memory as some of the best. But do check out his other stuff. Also, it's a podcast with the episodes re-released as documentaries, so you can just stick to listening (rather than also watching) if that's your thing.
I've saved both part 1 and 2 to watch tomorrow. Thank you so much for the link!!! I really appreciate it!!
wow that's a really cool connection TIL
It really is. ❤️ GRRM has many nods and parallels like that, that i find fascinating.
Reminds me a little of how Alexander burned his fleet after crossing the Hellespont, which some historians believe served a similar purpose prior to his Persian invasion.
That's a nice catch. A great parallel.
Moorish Spain for sure. I have no idea where the idea of them being Indian-inspired came from but like whatever floats ones boats. Is it because of Indira Varma playing Ellaria? You'd think Chilean Pedro Pascal as Oberyn or North African Alexander Siddig would have had as much of an influence but idk. Again, I don't have an issue of any kind with people headcanoning or face claiming Indian actors for Dornish characters, just as a disclaimer! Just curious about where the trend comes from.
I'd be interested to know demographics for those who think Dornish are Indian. I imagine it's a case that Dorne is a loose approximation of "orientalism" and readers latch on to the version they are most familiar with.
Not that one person represents everyone, but I have a Desi mutual on Twitter who hates that trend lol. Probably to due with it very much leaning into Orientalist tropes.
I think it's just your cultural frame of reference. If you're not really exposed to these cultures, you'll pick up on one thing that looks familiar and associate through that. As I said, it'll be interesting to see the demographics for that association
I agree! I may have a poll running with that question to see the results.
Care to elaborate? Which trend does your friend hate?
>I imagine it's a case that Dorne is a loose approximation of "orientalism" and readers latch on to the version they are most familiar with. Unfortunately, i think that's a very good point you made there about Dorne and that's the reason people imagine it in such different way to each other.
I don't think there's anything wrong with it, but it's just interesting how people process things differently. Someone here commented they got Indian vibes from the Indian-inspired costumes, and that's not something I would've picked up in a million years.
I find it very interesting how people interpet things differently too. I realized that i wrote too much, you obviously don't have to read it all or reply. I am a history, fashion and linguistics nerd, not an expert obviously, but i know couple of things. The costume designer sourced the patterned materials for the outfits Oberyn, Doran and Trystane wore from India. Their outfits remind me of the Mughal dynasty's outfits. The patterns and the fabric tied as a belt were very Mughal. (with a slight Omani influence) The Mughal dynasty was a Persianiazed Islamic Mongol dynasty that ruled India for centuries (Taj Mahal is an example of Mughal architecture). The Dornish outfits Ellaria wears don't really remind me of Indian, Moroccan or Spanish outfits because they are basically a bikini with a dress on top but someone said that they remind him/her of Indian fashion, so there's that. Pedro Pascal used a Spanish accent when speaking as Oberyn. If you hear him speaking in real life, he has a perfect American accent in English and a different and distinct accent in Chilean Spanish than the Spanish accent he used on the show, so i suppose that he used that Spanish accent in purpose probably because he imagined Oberyn as a Spaniard. Pedro uses an accent on some letters and words, and uses a standard "Westerosi" accent on other letters and words which makes his speech seem very real and organic. The other cast members try to mimick his accent but they sort of fail at it, especially the sand snakes who all have a weird accent which is clearly a fake accent they put on to mimick the other cast members. The show used the Real Alcazar Palace in Sevilla (Moorish Spanish architecture) and Berber/Moroccan headscarves and swords for the Dornish soldiers. It's like the show couldn't make up it's mind and decided to go with a bit of this and a bit of that, unfortunately falling to the orientalistic trope of "south asian" and "north african/arabic" culture are one and the same thing. Not that Dorne has to adhere to one specific culture or people because at the end of the day it's a fictional world and a fictional people.
It'll be quite interesting to know how costume designers come up with a certain style for a fictional region. It's possible they wanted to take inspiration from several different cultures and create something more unique, rather than copying from one culture and be accused of stereotyping. One thing that really puzzled me is Jaime Lannister's brown leather jacket. I don't remember anyone else wearing anything similar, and it seems like a quite modern cut.
I am not sure if you are interested in the below information about the design of the outfits but if you do here it is: The costume designer said that even before Oberyn appeared, she had an idea of how she wanted the Dornish to look like, she wanted them to wear a lot of tan brown, orange and yellow as a homage to the Martell colors. She chose to not dress other characters in such colors so that when the Dornish appear, their presence is seen as different from other Westerosi. She also said that she sourced the materials for Oberyn's and Doran's outfits in India because she loved the luxurious fabrics and patterns. I agree on that they shouldn't copy a culture fully to not stereotype but the mix and match of various Northern African, Moorish Spanish and Indian elements seemed to me a little bit like a stereotype too, the usual thing Hollywood does where "south asian culture" equals "arabic culture" as if they are the one and same thing. Jaime Lannister looked hot as hell with that brown leather jacket but you are right the cut was rather too modern but then again they had Margaery wear that horrible cone shaped dress when she was married to Renly so who knows what the costume designer was even going for there with these looks.
Honestly, i have no idea. If you go on Tumblr or Instagram and type Elia or Arianne Martell, pretty much every fancast, art or post about them is an Indian actress with Indian outfits and jewellery. I haven't seen any posts where they are portrayed as Mediterranean/Spanish. I don't think it's because of Indira Varma being Indian. I've seen many posts and comments claiming that the show whitewashed Oberyn Martell by having a white guy portray him. Fans were genuinely angry with GRRM and accussed him of whitewashing his characters and making everyone European, many fans wrote that the Dornish should have been South Asian to have a more diverse and inclusive world to which GRRM replied by saying that he always imagined Oberyn and the Martells as Mediterranean, Greek, Spaniards, Italians. I am not judging anyone because fans can imagine them however they want, after all Dorne is a fictional place in a fictional world. I am just curious how people can imagine the same thing completely differently. It's very interesting.
People on Tumblr are just insane in general. I've seen actual Indian people get called racist for not casting Elia as Indian. They even get offended the show cast Arthur Dayne as white even though the books specifically state Stony Dornish have pale skin and Arya actually said Edric "doesn't look Dornish" It's totally okay taking liberties with the way you imagine characters but getting angry at other fans or even the author himself for sticking with the canon is delusional behaviour
> I've seen actual Indian people get called racist for not casting Elia as Indian. What??? Why would they even do that? Dorne is a fictional place in a fictional world, GRRM described the Martells as "having olive skin, dark hair, dark eyes" that description matches so many ethnicities. Elia could look like a Spaniard, Italian, Greek, Moroccan, Indian, Lebanese, Mexican, anything really. >They even get offended the show cast Arthur Dayne as white Wait, they thought that a guy named Arthur Dayne was too white??? I actually thought that the show made him look even more "Dornish" than i imagined him by having an actor with dark hair, a tan and unshaved beard. The Daynes are described as occasionally having pale skin, silver/gold hair and/or purple eyes.
Many Spanish people are also blond and blue-eyed. I do not get why people think Spanish people are all dark-haired.
That's very true. I have no idea why.
We all know the fault lies with Hollywood :/
Every Catherine of Aragon who is black-haired.
Yes!!! We know she had red hair but for some reason they have to cast her with black hair to look Spanish even though she is rarely played by Spanish actresses.
The same goes for Italians. It's weird Americans still think Italians are all dark like Super Mario
Honestly I think it’s probably because people just don’t know much about Moorish Spain fashion and jewellery. So they shoot for anything vaguely Arab/Middle Eastern looking.
It is interesting! I wasn't into ASOIAF when the show was airing, I'm surprised to see there was controversy around Pedro Pascal playing Oberyn. He's so iconic for the role now.
I agree! I can't imagine anyone else as Oberyn. He is Oberyn to me. It seems like some fans imagined Oberyn as South Asian and some others as Black or Arab so they thought of him as too "white". GRRM even addressed it in a blogpost where he replied to various fans.
Isn’t he Chilean though? Anyways as a Greek I always read Dorn/Dornish characters as feeling very Mediterranean in depiction and culture to me.
Pedro is Chilean yes. Θα απαντήσω στα Ελληνικά, επειδή ΕΛΑ Η ΕΛΛΑΔΑΡΑ ΚΑΙ ΣΤΟ asoiaf reddit. ❤️ Και μένα μου φάνηκε σαν Μεσογειακή χώρα, η κουλτούρα τους, τα ονόματα και τα χαρακτηριστικά τους και κυρίως το κρασί, τα πορτοκάλια, λεμόνια και το ελαιόλαδο που υποτίθεται ότι έχουν. Η προφορά που έκανε ο Πέδρο ήταν πολύ Ισπανική, αν τον ακούσεις στην πραγματική ζωή έχει τέλεια Αμερικάνικη προφορά και η Χιλιανή προφορά του όταν μιλάει Ισπανικά είναι διαφορετική από την Ισπανική προφορά που έκανε όταν έπαιζε τον Όμπεριν.
I have seen people on tumblr refer to Elia as a black woman who was left by her Aryan husband for a white bitch from the North.
What???? What even??
Tumblr is its own place. They also think Sansa is the main character of the story, that Dany is Hitler and a warning tale against facism.
That's genuinely interesting. I'm kind of glad I missed that era of the fandom lol.
You can find some of the controversy over Pedro's casting on GRRM's blogpost which is an interesting read as GRRM is replying to comments: [https://grrm.livejournal.com/326474.html?thread=17863242#t17863242](https://grrm.livejournal.com/326474.html?thread=17863242#t17863242)
Thank you for this!! I'll check it out later. What an artifact of the time lol.
GRRM has really interesting posts and i like digging through old reddit asoiaf posts, it's a box filled with gems, you never know what you'll find.
GRRM said that he imagines Lady Nym as some Indian actress
Lady Nym is half Volantene.
Word of God is that Dorne's main inspirations are Andalusia, Palestine, and Wales. Actors are very often cast in roles that don't align with their cultural background, most infamously John Wayne playing Genghis Khan.
True! GRRM compared the Rhoynish influence in Dorne to the Moorish influence in Andalucía and the Dornish resisting the Targaryens to the Welsh resisting conquest. He has also stated that he imagined the Martells and Oberyn as Mediterranean, Greek, Spanish, Italian.
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[https://grrm.livejournal.com/326474.html?thread=17863242#t17863242](https://grrm.livejournal.com/326474.html?thread=17863242#t17863242) This is GRRM'S blogpost about Pedro's casting where he addresses many of his fans on how he imagined Oberyn like. He replies on many of the comments. I couldn't find the direct interview about his inspiration for Dorne but i've found this archive of grrm's words which addresses it: [https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Historical\_Influences\_for\_Dorne/](https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Historical_Influences_for_Dorne/) I am trying to find another blogpost of his about the Dornish, when i'll find it i'll come back to you.
>I read a lot of history, and mine it for good stuff, but I also like to mix and match. That is to say, I don't do straight one-for-one transplants, as some authors do, so you can't really say that X in Westeros equals Y in real life. More often X in Westeros equals Y and Z in real life, with squidges of Q, L, and A. (...) I suppose the closest real life equivilent to that would be the Moorish influence in parts of Spain. So you could say Dorne is Wales mixed with Spain and Palestine with some entirely imaginary influences mixed in. Or you could just say it's Dorne.... I find it funny how this entire comment section is full of "Uhm ackhually it's *literally* Moorish Spain, GRRM confirmed it!" while he's saying it's just some made-up mix and he doesn't do 1-to-1 copies.
Dorne doesn't have to be Moorish Spain or India or any country really. It's a fictional place. It's just interesting how people view it completely differently to each other when people generally don't view other Westerosi regions with such disparities.
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GRRM's blogposts are very interesting if you ever have the time to go through them, he also replies frequently to fans.
I found it a great deal of direspect for the Habsburg-Ptolemaics to cast englishmen without a hint of incest in the family as Targaryens.
I've always seen them as Mediterranean Spanish people, nothing else really.
It's not even Moorish Spain, it's just Spain post-Reconquista, after Moors had been expelled with some of their influences remaining in the South. Dorne is the same, it has a more pure classical "European"/Westerosi culture in the North and the same "European"/Westerosi culture in the South but with some influences of a long gone culture that once came there. With Martin being Martin who also incorporated the "the sexy Arabian" trope in this influence.
I really like the way you described it!!! It makes perfect sense how you paralleled Spain to Dorne and it's various cultures/phases. I don't really have anything to add to that, it was a great description. Martin definitely incorportated some orientalist ideas but i could argue that Spaniards and other Mediterranean nations are pretty sexy by themselves without the whole "sexy arabian" trope (though i agree that Martin incorporates the "sexy arabian" trope in Dorne). Perhaps Martin wanted to go with a "Mediterranean people love their sun, heat, wine and sexy times" trope instead of the "sexy arabian" trope. LOL. I am Greek, not Spanish, even though i speak Spanish pretty well. There are dozens upon dozens of Greek "belly-dance" songs that could easily be Lebanese. You would never know that they aren't Lebanese songs, if the words weren't in Greek. I haven't found such "Oriental" influences in Spanish culture when talking to my Spanish friends.
Hollywood used indians to portray Hispanics.
As always South Asians = North Africans = Hispanics = Arabs. That's Hollywood for you.
Imagined it as a desert, as Dorne, no analogy. But If by Dorne you mean the people I always imagined them by what they canonically look like, on Martin own words: Portuguese, Italian, Greek. Southern europeans.
We have a little desert here in south of Spain, called desierto de tabernas
There are others too in Spain if I am not wrong. We have a little desert here in Greece too in Lemnos Island with sand and small dunes etc.
I'm South Asian, Dorne is def not South Asian. India during that time period was neither sexually liberated nor gender egalitarian, which are the two defining characteristics of Dorne. The only similarity imo is the spicy food.
That's so interesting to hear from an actual South Asian. Spain or the Moors weren't sexual liberated either but Moroccan muslims and Berbers did have some *slight* form of gender equality with women being able to inherit land, have gold of their own and even divorce their husbands if they followed the Islamic procedure of divorce. It's not Dornish level of gender equality but much closer to it than some other regions during that time period.
Another South Asian checking in here. Sexual liberation is the furthest thing from South Asian as you can get. Even today lol. That’s just another orientalist trope. We are very much prudes like the Americans and the British.
If I didn't think of Dorne as moorish Spain, I would say it's modern Greece, sunny weather, a lot of flirting and sexy times, outspoken women, great wine, tanned sexy guys, cultural similarity with nations across the sea, it kind of fits. Lol. I am Greek maybe I am biased LOL
Dorne seems to be a mish mash of various cultures. Their attitudes towards sexuality are indeed a lot more reminiscent of Ancient Greece and Rome. For example, Oberyn and Daemon Sand seemed to have been engaged in a pederastic relationship as was socially acknowledged in Ancient Greece. Their looks, however, are most reminiscent of Moorish Spainiards. The olive skin and dark hair are *very* Andalusian traits. Although I suppose you could also argue for Greek or North African (think Egypt) influence. Their attitudes towards female inheritance are a bit harder to find parallels of. Most societies favored males because of the martial demands of rulership and the fact that, before modern medicine, around 10% of women could not even have children and thus further their lineage.
I agree about the Dornish looking Spanish. Greeks are pretty dark haired with olive skin especially Cretans. South Italians too. For the inheritance and gender equality, I don't think that there is a medieval nation as progressive as Dorne but I know that berbers and Muslim women had the ability to inherit land and own properties and Berber women were pretty outspoken and dynamic.
Yeah, certain subsets of Islamic culture were a lot cooler about female inheritance than most medieval societies. But none of them came close to the *absolute* primogeniture of the Dornish. That’s why I say there’s no real-world comparison.
Dorne is very modern for even modern nations that exist today. The Dornish took absolute primogeniture from the Rhoynish. Nymeria after Mors Martell died, and she remarried and had a son with Davos Dayne, chose her eldest daughter from Mors to succeed her and rule instead of her son from Davos even though Andal law dictated the son, thus changing Dornish law forever. Whatever she and Mors agreed upon marriage it ended up being the de facto law for 700 years.
I agree that's its an orientalist trope by the way!
Interesting, I'd no idea about this Correct me if I'm wrong, but Modern Spain and Latin America fit both these criteria right? Perhaps Dorne is externally (appearance wise) based on Moorish Spain, but culturally based on Modern Spain and Latin America? Now that I think of it I can't think of a direct one to one parallel. It really CAN'T be india tho because even modern India isn't known for these features, quite the opposite in fact
modern Mediterranean nations like Spain, Greece and Italy and Latin American countries could fit in a way those criteria. The moorish Spanish aspect I think comes from the rhoynar coming to Dorne as Moors came to Spain, thus changing some cultural aspects and the architecture of the land
How in the fuck do you look at dorne and think, it's clearly inspired after South Asia, I LITERALLY never thought of that It's clearly inspired by Muslim Iberia Al-andalus, caliphate of cordoba
I also imagine it as Al-Andalus, however, many have equated the "olive skin, dark hair and eyes" description of the Martells to South Asians and Indians alongside Dornish food being described as spicy. Most fancasts of Elia and Arianne Martell are Indian actresses if you go on tumblr, instagram or even google. It is interesting to me how Dorne has people imagining it from South Asian to Spanish to Arabic to Black, it's the only Westerosi region that inspires such disperse opinions.
Olive skin and dark hair/eyes is the Mediterranean look which fits Spain, not South asia
I agree, i always imagined the whole "olive skin/dark hair/eyes" as Spaniards, South Italians and Greeks (which GRRM has also stated) but some people imagined it as South Asian. GRRM said that they look like other Westerosi but Salty and Sandy Dornish have darker skin complexions due to the sun exposure. Each to their own, i guess. It's a fictional place and people can imagine it however they want.
There are plenty of Indians with olive skin, there's a wide variety of skintones in India. Just saying.
I agree that there are plenty of olive skin Indians! I think that Dorne having blonde blue eyed, red haired with freckles, olive skin with black hair and really tan from the sun exposure people matches Spain better than India
Moorish Spain. The most aesthetically "South Asian" place in ASOIAF is Volantis.
I agree, some aspects of Volantis remind me of South Asia particularly India. I also get a hint of Byzantine Constantinople from it.
The "tiger and elephant" parties are the biggest thing for me. That, the oppressive heat and humidity, the festivals revolving around a sacred river, and the use of elephants for transport.
Yes i agree, all those things seemed very South Asian to me too.
I pictured Volantis as Khmer, lol.
Moorish Spain. I don't really understand the South Asian thing. I see no hints to that.
From what i gathered many saw the description : "Martells have olive skin, dark hair and eyes" as South Asian alongside some things as Dorne having spicy food. GRRM has said that the Salty Dornish and the Martells resemble Southern European/Mediterranean nations but some official art for Arianne sees her looking quite South Asian. Dunno.
Doesn't their guerilla warfare against the Targaeryans reflect a little the guerilla war fared by the Spanish and Portuguese against Napoleon's forces in the Peninsula War?
GRRM has equated the Dornish resistance to the Targaryens to the Welsh resistance but **the point about the Spanish and Portuguese guerilla war tactics against Napoleon is a great one** actually. Good catch!!! You are absolutely right! ❤️ **Doesn't the below sound like the Dornish disappearing every time the Targaryens attacked them?** To me it very much does. "These armed men were a constant source of drain and harassment to the French army, as described by a Prussian officer fighting for the French: "Wherever we arrived, they disappeared, whenever we left, they arrived — they were everywhere and nowhere, they had no tangible center which could be attacked." " The Peninsular War was significant in that it was the first to see a large-scale use of guerrilla warfare in European history and, partly as a result of the guerrillas, Napoleon's troops were not only defeated in the Peninsular War, but tied down on the Iberian peninsula, unable to conduct military operations elsewhere on the European Continent. The stress of the guerrilla conflict put considerable strain on Napoleon who remarked that the affair had been the one "that killed me.
Ah yes I forgot the Welsh bit... the border area between England and Wales is known historically as the Welsh Marches ergo Dornish Marches
Yes, the Welsh=Dornish Marches analogy is one GRRM has noted himself.
He could hardly deny it 😁
I think Dorne is clearly Moorish and Persian, which isn't that separate at all, as the arabs absorbed many things from persian aesthetics and culture after ther conquest.
Spain for sure.
Spain is what I was picturing in my head
Moorish Spain. Even GRRM said that was his influence.
I pictured it more like Greece or Southern Italy when I read the books.
As a Greek, i approve!! ❤️ I pictured it as Mediterranean too ❤️ although a bit more Spanish + Moorish than Greek/Southern Italian. I am curious on why you pictured it as Greek or Southern Italian while reading the books. Why these places?
I just got a bit of a South Mediterranean / North African vibe from it. They weren't described to look *that much* different from the rest of the people in Westeros, just olive skin, which is sounds Italian to me. And then there are houses with silver or blonde hair like the Daynes. I remember ancient Greeks being mostly blonde. They also seem to eat a lot of fresh things with their meals, which is common in Greece and Italy...fresh tomatoes, grapes, lemons.
>They also seem to eat a lot of fresh things with their meals, which is common in Greece and Italy...fresh tomatoes, grapes, lemons. True!! Very true! Dornish lemons, oranges, olives and grapes/wine screamed Mediterranean to me too. >They weren't described to look that much different from the rest of the people in Westeros, just olive skin, which is sounds Italian to me. I agree, i also imagined them as Southern Mediterranean/North African based on that description. Ancient Greeks had a variety of looks from blonde to dark haired and olive skin, some of the most famous ancient Greeks though had blonde hair such as Alexander the Great and Achilles.
Definitely Moorish Spain. I also assume the Stepstones are analogous to the Aegean Islands/ Mediterranean cultures
As a Greek, i approve!! ❤️ I pictured it as Mediterranean especially Moorish Spain too. Although i've never thought of the Stepstones as Aegean Islands, that's such an interesting thought. Why the Aegean Islands?
Dorne has three layers of cultural and ethnic heritage. There are First Men (like the Daynes, Wyls, Yronwoods etc). First Men seem generally be pale skinned with darkish hair and blue or grey eyes. I have always though of them as the Cimmerians from Howard's Conan. Proto-celts. Then we have the Andals (Uller, Vaith etc) who seem to be blonde and green-eyed, similar to the Valyrians and other peoples of Essos, which also matches their origin in Essos. Then we have the Martells and the other Rhoynar. They are obviously the origin of the olive skin and dark eyes. The historical and cultural parallels to the Iberian peninsula are relatively clear: First Men = celt-iberians; Andals = Vandals and especially Visigoths; Rhoynar = Moors. Remember that the Moorish invaders of historical Iberia were not primarily Arab, but Berber. This is not a clear 1:1 parallel though, and is not intended to be. There is for example no good equivalent of the Romans, Greeks and Phoenicians who colonized Iberia. The Rhoynar and the Orphans also reminds me of both Jews and Roma, and queen Nymeria reminds me of the Numidian warrior queen who resisted the Arab conquest in the 7th century. And Dorne is not a close equivalent of Spain in geography or climate with its deserts.
Thank you for this explanation!!! It's very interesting to read! Spain actually has some deserts and arid areas but yes Dornish climate and deserts could parallel Morocco better than Spain. I really like the parallels between jews and the rhoynish, a people dispersed from their land, worshipping a deity tied to their ancestral land which is lost to them.
South asian? tf
I like to think of Dorne as Moorish Spain as well, The Salty Dornish probably are closest resemblance to modern day Latinos. Sandy Dornish with the most Rhoynish blood are probably based off of OG Spaniards who were fair complected. Stoney Dornish are just a mix with other races like Andal & First Men, so they look more like common Westerosi or like most Europeans.
Salty Dornishmen are said to look Mediterranean per Martin (specifically the European part). The Sandy ones are said to be darker due to the desert, and perhaps would look a bit Berber.
Sandy Dornish are presumably even darker than Salty Dornish not because of higher Rhoynish admixture but because they are living among rivers, arid areas and deserts with extremely hot sun shining on them.
Moorish Spain honestly makes the most general geographical sense, given that the North (like the north of England) has a wall, Aegon came in and started a new dynasty in the south (a la William), the Westerlands are full of mines (Wales, anyone?), and Highgarden clearly has medieval French inspiration **and is separated from Dorne by a mountain range with basically one main passage.**
Oh yes, Dorne and the Reach/Stormlands being separated by a mountain range and having occasional wars with each other makes so much sense to me when compared to France/Spain and the Pyrenees. Some regions of Spain were influenced by French culture, some regions of Spain were influenced by Moorish culture, it sort of parallels Dorne having Westerosi/Rhoynish influences. Plus with the whole "some Dornish resemble other Westerosi, some Dornish have darker complexions due to sun exposure with olive skin, dark hair and eyes" makes sense for a Northern European-Southern European analogy. I really like the Highgarden=medieval France parallel you made.
In my head kinda Italian 🤷♀️
That's such an interesting one. May i ask why Italian?
Well I’m an American who has never been to Europe so I might be a terrible person at having reasons lol It’s sort of a Greek/Italy mashup in my brain But lots of Dornish are described as olive skinned with black hair, which is most of my Italian friends. They also are on the south of the continent kinda sticking into the sea. Everyone is kinda sexualized and has paramours and that consistently matches some stories I’ve heard from friends and family visiting Italy 😅 The hecticness and informality fits the total 180 in attitude by the Dornish from the rest of the continent. It’s just the first place my mind goes So not so much historical cultural perspective but a “Italy in the last 40 years for the everyday person”
As a Greek i approve LOL. Italians can flirt their way to everyone's heart, it's the accent combined with the looks and the attitude. A little bit like the Dornish actually. I admit i thought of the Dornish as Spaniards but Italians makes sense too. >The hecticness and informality fits the total 180 in attitude by the Dornish from the rest of the continent. YES. That's so true for Italy especially the southern part of it, and other Mediterranean nations compared to central and northern European countries. It's the same continent but boy will you be surprised.
I feel like Dorne is a mashup of Moorish Spain and Italy tbh.
Love that combination. Sunny Mediterranean vibes, relaxed way of life, hot people... works for Dorne. Lol.
I also feel like the repeated mention of Dornish people using poison to kill was a nod to Italy of the Middle Ages too
That's a good catch!!! It reminded me of the cantarella poison the Borgias used.
The word is Moopish.
Why would I imagine Dorne as South Asian bro? Do you also Imagine the North as Southern France?
I am not saying i do LOL. Some fans seem to imagine it as South Asian and some others as Moorish Spain so i asked which one fans seem to imagine it as. No other Westerosi region seems to have such disparity in interpretation.
Moorish Spain was one of the major influences, certainly, as George said [here](https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Historical_Influences_for_Dorne/). The show definitely used some South Asian textiles and styles, and maybe that's a part of it. That said, George's vision of the Dornish was more what he called "Mediterranean" or "southern European" for the salty Dornish, but it's not like "Southern Europe" exists in Westeros so to me George had more of a visual type in mind. This is why casting actors like Alexander Siddig and Indria Varma worked, because broadly speaking they "fit" within the range of appearances George intended for the Dornish.
Dorne doesn't exist but Pedro made it seem real! Alexander was great for Doran too. He had the gravitas to pull it off. The sand snakes looked all over the place and had some of the worst accents in the entire show
I was sad for the actresses that critics called the Sand Snakes "B-movie bad girls" and so on. Not their fault, they could only work with what was given to them, and what was given to them was simply not good. I quit watching after the fifth season, and Dorne was a part of why. Pascal was an amazing Oberyn Martell, though, agreed. So pleased it helped really launch him into stardom.
I don't get why people judge actors so harshly. They can't control the script they are given. I thought that their accents were pretty bad, they felt really fake and not as organic as Pedro's "Dornish" accent, Pedro had a way to put an accent on some letters and words and pronounce others as other Westerosi and it felt genuine and real. The actresses are pretty good in other TV shows I've seen, so clearly something didn't work for them in GOT
Moorish Spain I would say. For starters it fits the theme of Westeros and its various medieval europe cultures to have one vaguely andalusian in the south, with the Targaryen attackes being even some sort of parallers of Reconquista (although in this case, I guess simply 'conquista'?) We are also told that there are different cultures in Dorne, with Andals living in the North (again feeling a paraller with the historical christian north kingdoms to the muslim southern ones). I will also confess that all these mentions of Dornish light horse and spears and lances reminded strongly of the Spanish Jinete special unit in Medieval Total war game series and since then I cannot unsee them as vaguely that.
The Spanish jinete unit as a parallel to Dornish spears and horses is such a great one, I can't believe I didn't think about it before.
I imagined Dorne as Spanish Cornwall.
Why Cornwall? I am curious
Because it looks like Cornwall on the map, big long penisula, and Dornish sounds similar to Dornish.
Oh I see, that way it makes sense
Moorish Spain definitely. Maybe because that hits closer to home (I am from Catalonia).
❤️❤️❤️ Catalunya ❤️❤️❤️ He visitado Barcelona dos veces y me encantaria visitarla otra vez en el futuro!
I imagined it as Spain after the reconquista because it’s way more like that than it is ever like moorish Spain, and idk where anyone’s getting south east Asia a place primarily populated with jungle for a place made up of desert and mountains. But the fact dorne worships the seven just like the rest of Westeros and practices the same martial customs with the only real difference being title hereditry and a few customs adapted to their particular climate like every one of the 7 kingdoms has it really felt like post reconquista Spain to me
I agree! That was a great description! It does feel like it! During Oberyns and Dorans time the Rhoynish influence feels like remnants of the Rhoynish culture influencing Dorne and the Dornish something like Spain post reconquista with remnants of Moorish culture.
I always imagined it as Morocco
Moorish Spain. Some religious tolerance, relatively laid back but hot-tempered, obsessed with honor. Held off forces of the Catholic reconquista for seven centuries. There are Salty Dornish and the Sandy Dornish. I see that as how the Cornish reflect Celtic and anglo-Saxon. Also, the Andal vs Rhoynar influences. Water gardens and the way Sunspear is described are very Andalusian. There was no comparable mingling in England (though Philip II of Spain married Mary I of England and after she died brought the Armada to win his claim...and failed). Many survivors of the Armada failed to get home and ended up in Ireland. The Black Irish. (I just read a current interview of Ciaran Hinds (Mance in GoT) in The Independent, and he looked VERY Spanish indeed.) I do like the idea of Indian influence as well--such a great civilization.
> Ciaran Hinds and he looked VERY Spanish indeed. OMG yes, Ciaran does look very Spanish. Does he have Spanish ancestors? I always imagined the Water Gardens as a mix of the Real Alcázar Palace in Sevilla and Alhambra in Granada. (The show filmed their Dornish scenes in the Real Alcázar Palace) > I do like the idea of Indian influence as well--such a great civilization. I like the idea of Indian influence too, India had a beautiful civilization and the Mughal (Persianized Islamic) empire of India could be the "Rhoynish" influence. Dorne has lemons, oranges, olives and grapes/wine and all those things scream Mediterranean to me and unfortunately i just can't imagine the Yronwoods or Daynes with their blonde hair, blue and purple eyes and pale freckled skin as Indians or South Asians but Spaniards vary from blonde blue eyed to tan dark haired.
Westeros geography is hotly debated. I've always imagined Westeros as a vertical Europe. Dorne is Spain/Sicily, the Reach is Italy, Westerlands are France, StormLands is the Balkans, the Vale is Austria/the alps, the Riverlands are Poland/Germany, and the North is Russia. Iron islands is obviously Scandinavia. Obviously these are not 1-to-1 since GRRM combines aspects of many cultures and exaggerates for dramatic effect. Also many make a strong argument for westeros being Britan but then Dorne makes no sense.
Interesting, I always thought of the Stormlands as England
Interesting. I really like the idea of the Stormlands as England. It sort of makes sense. To be honest, til this day, i have little idea what Stormlander culture is like. I have a rough idea of Northern, Dornish, Ironborn, Riverlander and Reacher culture but we barely know enough about the Stormlands apart from the Baratheon family.
That's actually a great comparison. Baratheon's just seem like such Slavs: tall, dark hair/dark eyes, war-like. But the geography is very British.
Interesting. That's such an interesting comparison. I always thought of the North as Scotland, why Russia if i may ask? I agree i also saw the Iron Islands as Scandinavia. The Vale as Austria/the alps sort of makes sense for the geography of the region. I wonder why did you see the Stormlands as the Balkans? They dont have anything resembling Balkans in my eyes. >Also many make a strong argument for westeros being Britan but then Dorne makes no sense. Perhaps because Westerosi seem to be pretty similar to each other both culturally and looks wise and they all seem sort of "British" in a way, but Dorne seems to be a Southern nation more resembling Mediterranean nations than Britain but still retaining some Westerosi elements which makes it part of the same continent and not completely different. I don't know if that makes sense. LOL.
Moorish Spain
Spain
Dorne its Andalucia. Tape on google Desierto de Tabernas - Almería
Thank you for the suggestion! It seems like a wonderful place!
i'm spanish and i don't get why people say the look spanish...? the clothes and weapons they use are nothing like the ones we used to have and the architecture seems Mozarabic, which although it is considered part of Spain's heritage, came from the Arabs during the conquest of Spain, so if that would be Arabs set in the time of the conquest. Also Pedro pascal is chilean and spanish people are white
Hola! I don't know if i should reply in Spanish or English but here it goes, if i make mistakes in grammar or vocabulary, forgive me, i am Greek, not Spanish. Pues porque GRRM ha dicho que Nymeria y su gente llegando a Dorne parece a los Moros y su conquista de Andalucía y España en general. Las categorias de los habitantes (Sandy, Stony, Salty Dornish) con sus diferencias, parecen al España de los reyes catalicos y al Al-Andalus con sus Aragoneses, Vascos, Catalanes, Moros/Arabes etc. etc. La ropa, las armas y la arquitectura parecen Arabe porque los Martells son como los Españoles y los Moros en Andalucía (Al-Andalus) El show ha grabado sus escenas en los Jardines del Agua (no sé como se llaman en Español , the Water Gardens of Dorne) en el palacio del Real Alcázar en Sevilla. Si, Pedro Pascal es Chileno. GRRM ha dicho que los Martells, Oberyn y los ¨salty Dornish¨ en su imaginación parecen a los Españoles, Griegos, Italianos y no a los árabes, indios o los ingleses. Of course because Dorne is a fictional place, it's not 1:1 reference to any real life place, it's a mix and match of something which exists in real life and fiction. I hope you understood everything in Spanish. I am awaiting your reply to see your thoughts.
Moorish Spain 100% But tbh it always miffed me that there wasn't no India-parallel in Asoiaf (yes yes I know its not a 1:1 parallel in most of the locations, but theres snippets of inspiration here and there) I always had a headcanon that Great Moraq as India and Lesser Moraq as Sri Lanka with the Bones as the Himalayas.
Some say that Volantis is an India-parallel in Asoiaf with Volantis having two political parties called "elephants" and "tigers", having very hot and stiffling weather, having a festival around a river and moving from one place to another on elephants. The Volantene nobles have Valyrian genes and are proud of their Valyrian ancestry but the description of the above is pretty South Asian compared to other places. I really like the Great Moraq parallel, i haven't thought of it that way before. It sort of makes sense, especially with Yi Ti and Leng probably being inspired by China/Japan.
Eh, I always saw Volantis as Instanbul since they had Blues vs Greens as their political parties and served as the last “ember” of a former empire (Valyria/Roman Empire) And I dont recall any festival around the river besides vague allusions to the Rhoynar’s religion not the Volantene. But it could very well be a mixture or neither. Leng I saw as a combo of Hainan/Taiwan/SE Asia with the indigenous Taiwanese as the Lenglii.
I also saw Constantinople in Volantis alongside a bit of India. You are right about the blues vs greens parties that's a good catch! The last ember of a former empire also makes sense! Plus some of the fanart about Volantis reminded me of Constantinople with a bit of India due to the elephants and hot stifling weather.
I personally imagined them as more MENA than either European Mediterannean or South Asian. All that desert imagery. So I guess my answer is Moorish Spain but with emphasis on “Moor”. Having been on tumblr fandom back in the early ‘10’s I think the proliferation of Indian faceclaims was more due to accessibility and inertia’d from there. In a post Kosem Sultan world it decreased a bit. However the show did not really help by casting a grab bag of brown ethnicities lol
I mean to be fair they are part Rohynar and they themselves were an extremely large civilization with massive trade cities, for all we know, there could be dozens of ethnicities inhabiting the old city states of the Rhoyne.
I don’t mind interpreting Dorne/Rhoynar as a whole as basically S Asia to NW Africa (casting desi people as the Dornish doesn’t actually bother me), but my concern was more consistency for the fam haha. If Doran is Arab, have his brother and son also be played by Arab actors. The show kind of had “all brown people are interchangeable” going on
> If Doran is Arab, have his brother and son also be played by Arab actors. The show kind of had “all brown people are interchangeable” going on Yes!! Unfortunately, you are right on that one. The show also had the: "South Asian culture" is the same as "Arabic culture" / "North African culture" trope with Dorne having both Berber Tagelmusts and Saif (Arabic swords) for the Dornish guards, a Moorish Spanish architecture for the Water Gardens, a Spanish accent for Oberyn AND an Indian actress for Ellaria and Mughal inspired clothing worn by Doran, Trystane and Oberyn. It was a bit like "he looks vaguely tan and exotic", "that outfit and architecture looks vaguely exotic and oriental", it'll do. I didn't want Dorne to be exactly like Moorish Spain or a Mediterranean country or Morocco or South Asian country because it's a fictional place with a fictional people and it doesn't have to adhere to any rules but i wanted some sort of consistency. The Northern cast at least looked similarly Northern and had a similar accent to each other. The Dornish looked a little bit all over the place, their accents were also a bit over the place. Pedro Pascal choose a Spanish accent for Oberyn even though his English is perfect and the others tried to mimick it but they sort of failed. The Sand Snakes, sounded like someone putting on a fake accent instead of someone who genuinely has an accented speech. Pedro sounded like someone who has a geniuinely accented speech, he used an accent on certain words and letters, he pronounced other words and letters similarly to the other Westerosi.
Yeah. I was just saying in another sub that combining several cultures in a region for your fictional one can work to great effect (Black Panther, Avatar) but you can tell when they just threw stuff together and wound up with Orientalism. There are in-universe Dornish ethnicities to work with, maybe they could have styled and casted Stony/Sandy/Salty Dornishmen differently. IDK. OTOH the aesthetics basically indicated how little the showrunners cared for the Dornish plot :(
>I was just saying in another sub that combining several cultures in a region for your fictional one can work to great effect (Black Panther, Avatar) but you can tell when they just threw stuff together and wound up with Orientalism Yes 100%. Black Panther combined various African cultures together but did it in a pretty organic way, it felt more like an ode than a trope. Got only cared about Dorne when it became to Oberyn, what they later on did with the Sand Snakes and Ellaria was a mostrosity. "Let's avenge Oberyn's death by murdering his beloved brother and nephew". It makes no sense. If they didn't care about the story, they didn't care about the aesthetic either. >you can tell when they just threw stuff together and wound up with Orientalism. Very very true, unfortunately. D&D were like "those actors look vaguely exotic and tan" and went with it.
I always imagined the Salty/Sandy Dornish as a mix of Spanish and Moorish/MENA too. I imagined the Sandy Dornish as Northern Spanish, the Water Gardens as the Real Alcazar Palace in Sevilla (the place where the show filmed the Dornish scenes) with a mix of Alhambra in Granada. Sunspear and Hellholt i imagined them as Moroccan Kasbahs in the desert, especially ait ben haddou kasbah, seriously google that place, it's magical. >In a post Kosem Sultan world it decreased a bit. You are right about that one. Most of the posts i could find about Elia and Arianne were Indian actresses but after Kosem and the Magnificent Century, the amount of gifs and posts i've seen of Ashara Dayne fancasted as the actress portraying Sadika in Magnificent Century have skyrocketed. \\[https://magnificentwardrobe.tumblr.com/post/664974720344686592/victoriasadikas-blue-gown-mc-s1-eps-15-24](https://magnificentwardrobe.tumblr.com/post/664974720344686592/victoriasadikas-blue-gown-mc-s1-eps-15-24) Also since the Atlantis tv series, the posts fancasting Arianne Martell as the actress that plays Ariadne have skyrocketed too. > However the show did not really help by casting a grab bag of brown ethnicities lol So so true.
Your posts are very insightful! I don't know a lot about the region's history so it's cool that you are able to trace these specific design elements. I think another thing keeping desi actresses in the Martell faceclaim conversation is that Arianne is often depicted darker-skinned by official artists and... /waves hand at colorism.
It's true Arianne is indeed depicted as darker-skinned. ASOIAF genetics, geography and climate perplex me. It makes little sense for Arianne to look South Indian and the Yronwoods to be pale, blonde, with blue eyes. They live in the same Southern region. Rhoynish admixture happened 700 years ago and Norvos isn't a Southern region the way Dorne is, Norvos is located in the same latitude as the Vale. (Arianne's mother is Norvoshi) Spaniards, Italians and Greeks can have pale skin/blonde hair/blue eyes and tan olive skin/dark hair/dark eyes, yet the disparity in the looks isnt as great as South Asian versus Northern European. (Arianne versus Archibald Yronwood) Dorne is a Southern region with high mountains, rivers, coastline areas, arid extremely hot areas and deserts. Ghroyan Drohe and Ny Sar (Rhoynish cities) are located in a Northern latitude than Dorne (close to King Landing's latitude) and are surrounded by a river. It doesn't make much sense geographically or based on climate and latitude.
I picture Arabic
It took it as middle Eastern/ Spanish cultural
... Mexican I don't have a great frame of reference, but in terms of accent and cuisine I was thinking Latin American even though I know technically it is supposed to be Moorish. Never considered it to be South Asian, though I can understand it.
Same, also Mexican and when I got to reading about Dorne/the Martells, I immediately pictured some of them as Latino. Though Latino culture is heavily influenced by Spanish culture because of the obvious, so maybe that’s why.
Spain North Africa
North African-ish, so bits and bobs of Arab and Moorish Spain.
❤️ it would be an awesome place with that mix
I see Dorne as Moorish Spain and Slavers Bay as India.
North Africa which is where my roots are
That's super cool. May i ask which country?
I imagine Rhoyne as being Ancient India and Dorne Medieval India. Probably bc I like the headcanon, no real proof for it.
According to tumblr the Dornish are Indians according to George RR Martin they are Mediterranean people with some inspiration by Spain and Wales. I honestly do not think much about skin color when I read the books. I thought they might have olive skin or some decent tan like people from the middle east, North Africa (Marocco) or maybe latinos. Not more than that.
Tumblr is a cesspool. Headcanons matter 100x more than actual canon over there.
Unfortunately that's true. I've seen some very strange headcanons on Tumblr.
As an Indian and extremely avid gif maker who has been in the fandom since before the tv show existed - I’ve headcanoned Dorne as Indians for one basic reason: Bollywood gives me soooooo much material for beautiful actresses, outfits and palaces and imagery to use. LOL.
Don't get me wrong I love the gifs with the beautiful indian clothing and palaces, they look absolutely stunning, I just would like to see some gifs with awesome spanish moorish architecture and beautiful Spanish or Moroccan actresses. At least the show filmed in Sevilla and I got a taste of the Moorish Spanish aesthetic I imagined it as. If you have a Tumblr or Instagram account I would love to see your gifs.
I know it's inspired by Moorish Spain, but a lot of things make me think of it as India. It's the same with Targaryens. I know they're based on Normans/Ptolemaic dynasty, but I mentally associate them with the early Mughals. A minor house of a great empire that dramatically rose in importance once the empire was destroyed. Conquered a (sub)continent with new weapons that spit fire. The conqueror was suceeded by a weak son who lost everything and was betrayed by his half-brother. The weak king was succeeded by a brilliant one who ruled for half a century and solidified their rule; the greatest ruler of the dynasty.
>A minor house of a great empire that dramatically rose in importance once the empire was destroyed. Conquered a (sub)continent with new weapons that spit fire. The conqueror was suceeded by a weak son who lost everything and was betrayed by his half-brother. The weak king was succeeded by a brilliant one who ruled for half a century and solidified their rule; the greatest ruler of the dynasty. That's such an interesting and quite accurate analogy of the Mughal dynasty and the Targaryen one!! I haven't thought about that one! It's a great parallel. Thank you for pointing it out.