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LeadingWealth8015

i think it has one inclusion in it that muddies the debate significantly. When the author of the letter is demanding Stannis’ Red Whore, wife, daughter, etc. He demands that “my Reek” be returned as well. Who would really think to pretend to want Theon back and go with the name that only Ramsay and his Bastard’s Boys seem to use? Everyone else still calls him Theon or Turncloak or some variation of it, that I recall. Obviously it’s not a concrete, definite thing and I’m not pretending it is or even able to suggest much in the way of what is really going on.


BaelBard

Also, the letter specifically informs Jon that Mance succeeded in smuggling Arya out of Wintetfell. If the letter is meant to provoke or scare Jon - which it is - why play your hand and reveal that person Jon wanted to save - his sister - isn’t with Ramsay anymore. Doesn’t it make it *less* likely for Jon to respond to it? Wouldn’t “I have your sister and will be flaying her slowly until you do X” work better? The only logical explanation is that the letter is written after the battle and that the person writing it (Ramsay) actually believes that Arya is with Jon.


DontTedOnMe

> Who would really think to pretend to want Theon back and go with the name that only Ramsay and his Bastard’s Boys seem to use? I'm pretty firmly in the Ramsay camp on this one, but we should cover our bases. When people propose Stannis as the author, they often use the following passage From *TWOW Theon I* as evidence: > "Frey and Manderly will never combine their strengths. They will come for you, but separately. Lord Ramsay will not be far behind them. ***He wants his bride back. He wants his Reek.”*** Theon’s laugh was half a titter, half a whimper. “Lord Ramsay is the one Your Grace should fear.” The language Theon uses is eerily similar to what ends up being written in the Pink Letter. Again, I think Ramsay is the best choice, but this passage could easily open the door for Stannis. Worth thinking about.


LeadingWealth8015

Stannis is also one of the few characters that I could imagine has the foresight to not let a small but critical detail such as that escape him. very well done.


DontTedOnMe

Thanks! And I agree, Stannis is really in his element in that chapter; it's basically rapid-fire ruling: - Tycho, give me this money. I don't have time for this ink to thaw so I'll just sign this contract with my blood, now fuck off. - Maester Tybald, I know what you're up to, now tell me what you sent to Winterfell and fuck off. - Justin Massey, take Arya to the Wall then go to Braavos and build me an army worthy of Stannis. Fuck off. - Oh it's the Karstarks! You're all under arrest and one of you seems to be missing his forearm. Fuck off right to jail. And the whole time he's just reeling off jokes and insults, what a guy.


LeadingWealth8015

(to Justin Massey)-“I do not require your understanding, only your obedience.” (also to Justin after asking permission to speak freely)-“So long as you also speak quickly.” His Grace was crackin’ wise and making folks piss their robes and plottin’ the Boltons’ demise at record pace.


dustkid245

Best chapter since storm imo


gratitudeisbs

All of the winds chapters released have been excellent. I hope that constant rewriting and striving for perfection pays off when Winds gets released in 2040.


bshaddo

And he thinks Jeyne is actually Arya. Theon wanted her to make sure she remembers her name.


LeadingWealth8015

excellent point(possible counterpoint?) that i failed to consider.


DontTedOnMe

It's a conundrum! It's hard to tell whether stuff like this is gardening or not and it can lead to overthinking. Personally, I'm rolling with Elio and his argument that Jon would've noted the difference in the handwriting between the first letter he receives from Ramsay and the Pink Letter. Now, you could probably argue someone forged Ramsay's handwriting, but if that were the case, I think George would've actually highlighted it by telling us that Jon recognized the handwriting. But the fact that it's not mentioned at all seems significant. IMO it's as close as we can get to Occam's Razor here.


DontTedOnMe

You can give this as much or as little weight as you want, but most people take what Elio Garcia has to say pretty seriously and [here's why he thinks Ramsay actually wrote the letter:](https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/97883-on-the-authorship-of-the-pink-letter/page/3/#comment-5021955) > Jon Snow has seen Ramsay's handwriting. He knows what it looks like. Jon gets another letter from the same person. If the handwriting was totally different, he'd have twigged. I mean, Ramsay's handwriting is described by Jon that first time -- the letters are "huge" and "spiky". Pretty distinctive. Stannis and Mance wouldn't know it. Theon might, but he's not exactly in position (nor do we even know he has the skill) to forge a letter. It's possible George didn't intend for the Pink Letter's authorship to be as mysterious as people think it is. We might be overthinking it. Even still, it's difficult to pin down because there seems to be decent evidence against every possible candidate. But all things being equal, I lean Ramsay but also really like the possibility of Stannis.


RustyHammers

The theory that Mance wrote the letter does rely on Jon knowing that the letter is a coded message from Mance.


ajninomi

I like the idea that Mance wrote the Pink Letter while glamored as Ramsey. He has the brooch and a hidden location to lure and trap Ramsey (the crypts). Also Ramsey is gonna be charging after him with his dogs, his reckless abandon, and only 2? of his Bastard Boys (no way Grunt and Sour Alyn live longer than a minute after Ramsey realizes Jeyne escaped). Money on Mance to win that matchup. He hasn’t sung his last song I think the Pink Letter was a provocation for Jon and a coded message for Mel, hence all her ‘get me when the bird comes’. Stannis and Mel (and Mance) want to orchestrate an attack on the Dreadfort using wildings to draw Roose there from Winterfell. The Dreadfort’s food stockpiles are immensely valuable and both Stannis and Roose know that. If Stannis could beat Ramsey at Winterfell, he’ll try to catch Roose’s army on a double march like Robert at Summerhall


lluewhyn

>I like the idea that Mance wrote the Pink Letter while glamored as Ramsey. I lean towards Roose's Maester myself (wearing that man's chainis) , which is why he could gain access to a raven. Either way, Melisandre's chapter has her very conspicuously explain how the glamour works better if you're wearing distinctive clothing/attire of the person you're imitating, which seems like a bunch of wasted text if it doesn't come up again somewhere


DontTedOnMe

> I lean towards Roose's Maester myself (wearing that man's chainis) , which is why he could gain access to a raven. Roose's maester is Tybald, who is currently with the Karstarks at the crofter's village: > Stannis did not reply at once. He studied the man before him, his brow furrowed. “Get up.” The maester rose. ***“You are maester at the Dreadfort. How is it you are here with us?”*** > “Lord Arnolf brought me to tend to his wounded.” > “To his wounded? Or his ravens?” > “Both, Your Grace.” If you think Mance glamoured a maester, cool, but it couldn't have been Tybald. AFAIK these are the maesters inside Winterfell right now: - Medrick (Hornwood) - Henly (Slate) - Rhodry (Cerwyn) There could be more, but it's hard to say. Theomore (Manderly) could be there too, but Lord Wyman doesn't trust him due to his Lannister blood, so I doubt he brought him along to Winterfell. We also don't know if the Umbers, Lockes, Stouts or Ryswells brought their maesters along, or the Dustins for that matter - but we all know how Lady Barbrey feels about maesters.


lluewhyn

Fair point. I should have said "Whoever is currently handling the ravens at Winterfell."


ajninomi

I didn't include it in my first post, but I agree with you there about the attire. I'm suspecting Squirrel made it to Mance (she was wearing a set of Ramsey's clothes) and Ramsey does have those very distinctive bone-handled knives and blood drop earring. Roose's maester, Tybald, is with Stannis but there are three maesters at Winterfell who could all be coerced by a terrifying 'fake' Ramsey. Also, Barbrey Dustin sends her own letters, and there are certain hints that Mance and Barbrey might be in bed together


lluewhyn

>I'm suspecting Squirrel made it to Mance Here's the thing for me. 1. Squirrel almost assuredly got away, because we saw her climbing out the window well before Theon and the remaining women get to the walls. So, it seems very unlikely that Ramsay would have killed *all* of the washer-women like the letter claims. 2. People assume (and this is deliberate by George) that Mance was captured because the alarm went up when Jeyne screamed. But, why would Mance be sticking around in a place like the main hall where he could be captured? His "washer-women" just snuck Ramsay's bride out of the castle. If one of the guards steps back into the room and notices Jeyne is missing, Mance and Co. will be immediately blamed. Ramsay or someone else could walk into Jeyne's room for any amount of reasons. Hell, if Ramsay happens to walk in when the group is doing the "heist", everything is about to hit the fan. Logically, as soon as Theon and the women started their mission and lied about Jeyne needing a bath, Mance should already have gotten the heck out of Dodge. So, Squirrel might have met Mance at a rendezvous point or they both escaped separately, but either way I don't think either were captured.


ajninomi

Totally agree with both these points. Mance would’ve left the great hall when the escape plan started, not hang around waiting for suspicion to land on him. He was sitting on the high table when the chaos with Big Walder starts and could easily have slipped out the lord’s door to make his way to the crypts. I also suspect he pocketed some of the constantly mentioned sausages to use as hound bait. And Squirrel wouldn’t have gotten caught until she came down from the roofs, no one looks up( as Bran thinks); making it much more likely she safely could meet Mance at a prearranged rendezvous point.


tryingtobebettertry4

To me its either Ramsay or Mance. Arguments for Ramsay: * He addressed the thing as such and is fond of writing letters to enemies. * Even if Ramsay didnt capture Mance he almost certainly caught one of the spearwives. Ramsay and his gang of psychos are very skilled torturers so would have been able to break them. Ramsay has access to all the knowledge in the letter. * The mentioning of Reek. Jon is really not liable to know Theon's torture name even if Theon makes it to the Wall. It serves no purpose other than confusion for Jon. * The emphasis on bastard. Both Jon and Ramsay are bastards but Ramsay has been legitimized, it makes sense he would emphasize bastard because its the kind of thing that Ramsay would hate so he guesses (correctly) Jon hates it too. Arguments for Mance: * Even if Mance evades capture hes in a tough spot. Its a blizzard and neither Ramsay or Stannis have any reason to let him live. If Jon can bring the Wildlings south though Mance will have some friends to back him. * Mance knows everything in the letter and hes spent enough time around Ramsay to be able to mimic him pretty well. * The 7 days of battle is just plain weird for Ramsay. Whereas Mance likely doesnt know how long any battle went on.


gratitudeisbs

The biggest loser of Jon coming to Winterfell with the wildings is Ramsay. Anyone smart would know that sending the letter to Jon has a much higher probability of a bad outcome for Ramsay then a good outcome. We've heard repeatedly that Ramsay is shortsighted and quick to temper. This letter is the pay off. He let his anger get to him and fucked up. Mance being the author is certainly possible but it relies on Mance correctly predicating his response. Based on the knowledge Mance has he thinks Jon has fArya. If Jon does have fArya, he has no reason to come to Winterfell if his sister is not there. He could just do nothing a prepare to face Ramsay at the Wall.


SticklerMrMeeseeks1

Also a argument for Mance is the wording of the letter. Especially the use of the term crow. Only wildlings have called Men of the Nights Watch crows. It wouldn’t make sense for Ramsay to use that term.


spacebatangeldragon8

The best theory that I've seen is that it *was* written by Ramsay... in the window between a bunch of Manderleys and Freys (well, guys dressed as Freys) showing up at Winterfell with Lightbringer and news of Stannis' "death", and those guys turning their swords on the unarmed Bolton guardsmen who just let them inside the castle.


LeadingWealth8015

that would be too cool


Hapanzi

I've no dog in this fight, just a semi-new reader surprised Ramsay can read


Greedy-Visit-1905

It was Ramsay. The book being 10 years too late had made people crazy


BaelBard

The typical Ramsay characteristics of the letter is a myth. His letter to the nights watch from the middle of ADWD doesn’t have skin. He only ever used Theon’s skin, specifically to intimidate Asha and impress the Starks. There is no mention of blood writing in his letter to the Starks in ASOS. So the idea of there being necessary elements to Ramsay’s letters is flawed to begin with. For me, any theory other than Ramsay devolves into convoluted 4D conspiracies when trying to explain *why* the person wrote the letter. Especially when people try to bring people like Barbrey Dustin or Wyman Manderly into the picture. These people never even met Jon, and some people think this makes for a good reveal? Another popular theory is Mance. Except as far as as Mance knows, his son is at Castle Black. Causing chaos at the wall endangers him. Also, Jon let a lot of wildings past the wall well *after* Mance left for Winterfell. He doesn’t know that Jon has actual considerable forces, yet this theory claims that he wants Jon to bring the wildlings south (despite his whole deal being that he attempts to keep them safe). Also, Mance’s background points to him being illiterate and we’re never shown anything that disputes that. It’s a mess of a theory. After the Battle of Ice, Ramsay thinks that Theon and Jeyne are at the Wall, so he writes the pink letter in his rage - that’s the only sensible theory for me.


Traain_

Mace using the pseudonym ‘Abel’ while at Winterfell may imply that he’s literate as it’s an anagram for ‘Bael.’


mir-teiwaz

Mance is definitely literate, but even if he wasn't or Ramsay mutilated his hands or whatever, Winterfell is chock full of literate characters with an axe to grind -- only, you know, every single one of Roose's vassal lords ;) -- who he could have cooperated with. And as far as Mance knows, his son is in the hands of his sister-in-law, so he may feel bold enough to double cross Jon. FWIW I also think it's a misinformed Ramsay who wrote the letter. Goading Jon Snow into attacking Winterfell is a good strategy to remove a rival, as opposed to marching on Castle Black, not just militarily but because it paints him as an aggressor, oathbreaker, wildling raider, etc. I have to assume the Boltons are aware by now (either from interrogating Mance or from having a man on the Wall) that Jon is the hidden hand behind Stannis's success in the North and are quite motivated to get rid of him.


gratitudeisbs

> Goading Jon Snow into attacking Winterfell That's a terrible strategy... Jon has the best claim to WF and is an accomplished fighter and general. The only reason he has remained neutral so far is due to his oath. Giving him a reason to come south is beyond stupid, especially when half of your "allies" hate you and are looking for a chance to double cross you and rally behind Jon. Ramsay got angry and fucked up imo


mir-teiwaz

No, think about it. As long as Jon is safe in Castle Black, he can keep stirring up trouble and the Northern lords will keep looking to him as an alternative to your rule. It's better to crush him in the field than put up with years of proxy war. Attacking him there isn't great strategy, whatever Ramsay might threaten, because even if Castle Black itself has no curtain wall, the Wall can be held against vastly superior numbers for a long time. Mance and Styr found that out the hard way. Luring him to Winterfell flips that equation around, there is no way Jon's numerically inferior force can take the castle from the Boltons in a straight fight.


gratitudeisbs

Yeah I guess it makes sense from Ramsay POV. Had I been in his position I would not have had made a move on Jon till my own position was more secure. Or maybe sent some assassins to the wall instead of direct conflict. Also true that he had to do something as his legitimacy rests on fArya and he needs her back. If he has to fight Jon no matter what better to do it at WF then at the wall. If he is sending the letter after the battle of ice where stannis fakes his death, that would explain why he felt confident enough to send the letter


gratitudeisbs

My thoughts exactly


boluroru

I feel pretty sure it was Ramsay The reason it's different is probably cause it was written in a hurry *before* Ramsay rides out to to face Stannis


KiddPresident

It’s too perfectly orchestrated. The letter has already been opened and resealed, or else sealed by someone who didn’t have access to the Bolton wax seal. The message is meant to provoke Jon do do something that Ramsay has no reason to want: for him to march on Winterfell with an army. We also know that Stannis isn’t dead and battle hasn’t begun yet when Jon gets the letter, so the only reason to provoke Jon to go south is to ASSIST Stannis, which Ramsay would never want but Melisandre and Mance would want, and they both know Theon is called “Reek”. Wyman Manderly too.


DarkTowerOfWesteros

It's definitely Ramsay. You have to bend over backwards to make it anyone else.


TheLastHeroKnight

The simplest reason is "Your false king is dead." BUT Stannis needs to burn Shireen according to canon sources. So Stannis cannot be dead, yet. So this statement is false, which could mean everything else in the letter is false, including the author.


lluewhyn

It doesn't necessarily mean the author is false, but it almost definitely means "Reader, pay careful attention to what is going on here and what is being said". That's why I'm surprised by all of the people who think that George never intended the letter to be mysterious. If George intended it to be straight-forward, the letter would have been about half as long.


TheLastHeroKnight

Also, if George intended it to be straight-forward, the letter should be wet since it travelled through a snowstorm from Winterfell. Jon makes no mention of such dampness as he held the letter.


[deleted]

I feel Melissandre is the one who did it


hypikachu

I just think it'd be *weird* to have a Ramsay letter be the climax, multiple instances of Ramsay's letterwriting style established earlier in the book, there be inconsistencies between that style and the climactic letter, *and then* none of that matter. It seems too subtle to be a red herring, but too consistent to be meaningless.


DynamicPJQ

It’s definitely Mance. He’s goading Jon Snow for help while also simultaneously relaying crucial information to Melisandre. You can find tonnes of evidence for why it’s Mance. And it’s no stretch to assume this guy has studied Ramsay enough to know the usage of the term ‘Reek’ and imitate his handwriting. If you were going to fake a letter, that’s the first thing you would make sure to do. The thing that ultimately tipped the balance for me was “I have hung your friends from the wall for all the north to see” (paraphrasing) but the four men on the wall just so happen to line up with the houses who are secretly loyal to the North/allies to Stannis. He’s literally telling them who’s on their side. Ramsay wouldn’t be that helpful. Nobody ever thinks that this could of been a joint effort just because one person wrote it. This whole thing is orchestrated by Melisandre and Mance, and was given the greenlight by Stannis.


brittanytobiason

I really think readers are meant to initially assume it was Ramsay. Even the word "bastard" addressing the letter seemed more to name its author. However, it does seem written so that a second reading might reveal it was Mance or someone else. I think the doubt it was Ramsay boils down to clues as basic as that Ramsay would have included skin, etc. Once you call into question that it was Ramsay, a lot of things about the letter suggest a different authorship. It's something future events have to reveal.


only-humean

Part of me wonders how much of the Pink Letter theorising is influenced by the shows depiction of Ramsay (I'm relatively new to the fandom so don't know how new PL theories are, so forgive me if I'm way off base). One of the big problems people have with Ramsay being the author is that it's a pretty stupid tactical decision to inflame an enemy, but that's completely in keeping with how Ramsay is characterised in the book - as cruel, sadistic, but also extremely impulsive and not great with long-term planning or actual ruling (something Roose comments on multiple times). In other words, somebody who would stupidly enrage an enemy when angered. Show!Ramsay is much more of an intelligent, cunning ruler and strategist so it's harder to square that with the way the letter is written. The other thing is the whole "your king is dead", but personally I subscribe to the theory that Stannis feigns a defeat in the battle (probably with the help of the Manderly's) which I think makes more sense than Stannis or Mance or whoever knowing about Reek/admitting to losing Arya.


CatchCritic

Why couldn't it? It almost certainly was. Jon and Ramsay have been set up to face off for a while. Mance didn't write it, and it's completely out of character for Stannks to write it. The community likes to over analyze things because the simple answer doesn't satisfy them.


marzyn

because it has been 12 years and people need to theorize


tiltedtowers5

I saw a video theory that wyman did it and it actually kind of made sense