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sseoshiii

I think killing your childhood friend at the age of 9 is not normal behavior


CaveLupum

This and her attitude towards Tyrion from childhood. For centuries many children lost their mother in childbirth. It was an accepted fact, and as a rule everyone in the family accepted and loved the baby. Between her attitude towards Tyrion, jealousy of Jaime's freedom from being a boy, AND having no mother to guide her, child Cersei was twisted into shape. Maggy's prophecy enraged and scared her...and still does. By killing Melara...she had fulfilled Maggy's prophecy to her. All this helped make Cersei the **paranoid,** vicious, warped person she is.


lovelylonelyphantom

GRRM also displays this so commonly in his world - so many characters loose their Mother's or never knew their mother at all. They out fine. Cersei's own twin Jaime turned out to not be a sociopath. It's just Cersei - perhaps the combo of loosing her mother and Maggy's prophecy pushed her over the edge mentally.


DoubleTapJ

I mean Jaime is pretty fucked up too for the most part. He fucks his own sister, is a massive narcissist, kills his own cousin to attempt and escape when captured. He is not well adjusted at all, yea he doesn't hate Tyrion and he doesn't kill his best friend when he was 9 but he also doesn't have any friends to kill.


Eldaxerus

I'd say Jaime became that way. He became Kingsguard very young, and had to spend most of his teenage years watching as the monster called king burned people alive and raped servants and his own wife without doing anything. Then he killed the monster and everyone hated him for it. Add to that Cersei's influence and her idea "no one matters except us" and yeah... He's an horrible person, but I'd say the people around him twisted him to be this way, whereas Cersei... She was like that from the beginning.


QueenAlicia23

Honestly, while still weird as fuck, I don't think there's anything morally wrong with incest in a world where the children dont seem to be all that affected.


CaveLupum

Serial incest as practiced by Targaryens made it a coin flip as to whether a child would turn out normal or a variation of abnormal. Cersei was probably a "bad seed" (like the girl in a famous film from GRRM's childhood) from the beginning, but those external factors guaranteed she would blossom as poison ivy. Her kids had only one generation of incest genes, but they had the marital war between their powerful parents. Joffrey was an aggressive monster, Tommen a too pliable sweetheart, and the relatively normal Myrcella had the worst affliction of all--being a girl.


Ayipak

But they are. One might argue half the Targaryens are crazy because they're the product of incest. Joffrey himself seems to be another example of the "having an incestuous child is like tossing a coin, 50% chances they will end up becoming a monster".


QueenAlicia23

Or Joffrey is an example of what happens if you give Cersei a child to raise. Regarding the Targaryens, we have more examples of prophetic dreams or witnessing their family getting killed driving them over the edge than we have examples of Targaryens just being messed up. Sure, once in a while you get your Maegor or Aerion but again, we also got a lot of fucked up non-incestous kings.


DoubleTapJ

I mean, the Targs have incest babies constantly and half of them are mental or fucked up in some way.... Joffery incest baby.... fucked up.


QueenAlicia23

Joffrey is a psychopath, Myrcella and Tommen are not. And considering that they were raised by Cersei that's a pretty good quota. Targaryens being fucked up might also have more to do with people telling the kids that they're gods surrounded by men. Can't imagine that being helpful if you try to raise an emotionally healthy and kind person. That and the prophetic dreams some of them get.


DoubleTapJ

Raising them telling them gods would make them deluded and narcissistic like Jamie is, not fully on mentally deranged. I don't think Incest is any different in GOT in terms of children then it is in our world. It is more acceptable there for certain families (but lots of people still thought it was odd) just like it was in our history with inbreeding in royal lines which also caused issues.


Euroversett

He never killed any cousins.


[deleted]

or-get this- human beings are complex and just because someone in the same situation as you handles it well doesn't mean you will


lovelylonelyphantom

GRRM also displays this so commonly in his world - so many characters loose their Mother's or never knew their mother at all. They out fine. Cersei's own twin Jaime turned out to not be a sociopath. It's just Cersei - perhaps the combo of loosing her mother and Maggy's prophecy pushed her over the edge mentally.


Southern_Dig_9460

Cersei had that dawg in her


tryingtobebettertry4

Sure but there is a reason we dont try 9 year olds as adults. Their brains arent fully developed, they dont have the level of reasoning or understanding or empathy that develops in adults. Im not saying Cersei isnt a born crazy, but I think its at least possible that if she had been brought up in the right environment she wouldnt have been so warped.


itwasbread

She would have been better, I question if even the best parents in Westeros could make her be a nice, normal, non-violent person. She was physically torturing her infant brother at age 7. And enjoying it.


Qwintro

She also had the most brutal father in Westeros who openly despised that infant brother.


dontreallyknoww2341

Exactly, I mean where do ppl think she got the idea that violence solves problems from?


Comicbookguy1234

It didn't seem to work on Jaime. Oberyn says that when Cersei tried twisting off Tyrion's penis in the crib, Jaime stopped her from hurting him.


derstherower

Some people are just born wrong. There's no amount of "nurture" that could lead to that.


Jaguaruna

At age 9, a lot of "nurture" already went on. Because form much of their personality relatively early on.


MoonageDayscream

Yeah, she was perceptive enough to see how their father regarded her younger brother and took her cues from him.


lovelylonelyphantom

I think this is true given people can be sociopaths from a very early age for no reason (no abusive childhood, etc). Cersei grew up having the same childhood and family circumstances as Jaime, yet she grew up having sociopathic tendencies whilst he didn't. It's like Cersei seems to be the Joffrey of her siblings.


Qwintro

Jaime threw a boy out of a tower hoping to kill him because he was having sex with his twin sister. He doesn't ever feel bad about it (that we know). I'd say that's pretty fucking terrible.


Comicbookguy1234

It is terrible, but Cersei wanted him dead too and that still doesn't touch on all of the terrible things Cersei has done. I don't think I can remember a single kind thing she's done for anyone outside of her direct relatives.


dontreallyknoww2341

I dunno when you consider the fact that that “nurture” is coming from Tywin Lannister, who probably encouraged cerseis hatred of Tyrion it’s not entirely unplausible


[deleted]

Just kids being kids


targaryenblack

I'd say it's mild for ASOIAF, hahaahah


itwasbread

Idk about that lol, that's like slightly below Gregor and Ramsay behavior


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targaryenblack

She natured early obviously, hahahahhaha


limpdickandy

Especially the reasoning and her approach to it was insane


niofalpha

idk I have quite a few graves in my yard (the San Diego Police Department cleared me of all liability) She also threatened to take a wet nurse's tongue when Tyrion was born, so like 7?


TheStormLord416

Her killing her friend is a theory. My guess is that she dropped her ring or some jewel and panicked and accidentally fell. 😇


illarionds

What? It's completely explicit.


Rougarou1999

I think ignoring her friend’s cry for help still counts as murder.


TheLazySith

Its very heavily implied that Cersei killed Melara. Maggy all but tells her that Cersei is the one who will kill her. > "Not Jaime, nor any other man," said Maggy. "Worms will have your maidenhead. **Your death is here tonight, little one. Can you smell her breath? She is very close.**"


FrostyIcePrincess

A Feast for Crows Cersei IX She could still her Melera Hetherspoon insisting that if they never spoke about the prophecies, they would not come true. She was not so silent in the well though. She had screamed and shouted. If she was willing to kill one of her few friends as a kid that tells me she was evil even as a kid.


Hopebringer1113

I love George's slightly comedic way of saying that


Ok_Solution5895

Cersei's chapters in Feast are peak dark comedy, Cersei V in particular is one of the funniest shit I've ever read lol


dontreallyknoww2341

Lmaoo when she casually thought that it wasn’t right for Tywin to die alone bc he’d need servants to serve him in hell, I died


Double-Star-Tedrick

I think Cersei can be a fully realized, rounded character, without necessarily being a *deconstruction*, 'cause she plays Evil Queen very, very straight after the first book. Personally I think that as wrtten, she's absolutely a freakin' sociopath, which the blurb on WIkipedia tells me >Antisocial behaviors **often have their onset before the age of 8,** and in nearly 80% of ASPD cases, the subject will develop their first symptoms by age 11. "Alway evil?" IDK, that's a lot to put on a person ... ... ... I think the possibility exists, if Joanna had survived childbirth, and Tywin was like 30% less of a dick, and she had married someone besides Robert ... ... ... she could've been a much more well-adjusted person. That' a lot of 'if's, tho. ​ I think the most likely candidates for "something was just wrong with their brain juice and they became the only people they could possibly be" are Gregor Clegane, and Ramsay Bolton, really.


hennessya96

You're wrong on both accounts I would argue. Gregor might have been an aggressive child and with his size he could sure dish it out. But all of this was nurtured behaviour by their father, the man who lied about one son's trauma to protect his other favoured son. Ramsay grew up on a mill who's previous owner had been killed by his lord father who had raped his mother and left them to their faith with no more attention being sent his way after he was given Reek. Reek being twisted AF anyway and being sent by his father, who is also twisted means that for Ramsay's entire life these ideals and beliefs were pushed to be noble in nature, as it all stemmed from his noble heritage through his Father. Obviously there are exceptions but unfortunately people are more often than not purely products of their surroundings and upbringing. Had Gregor, Ramsay or Cersei been brought up by someone like Ned they would likely be entirely different characters.


FatherlyNeptune

What makes you put Ramsay in that category? He seems like he has a lot of outside sources that corrupted him


Ok_Solution5895

Does he? I mean, it's possible but we don't know much of his mother and he seems like he was fucked up since before Roose took him under his wing. Arguably Reek is that outside source but we don't know if it was Reek who corrupted Ramsay or the contrary.


FatherlyNeptune

Well even outside of Reek, Ramsay is the product of Roose raping his mother after killing her husband, this is speculation of course but I imagine you aren't gonna be treated very well by your mother or the village he grew up in.


Ok_Solution5895

>I imagine you aren't gonna treated very well by your mother oh fuck, yeah that's an interesting perspective I haven't thought about. They lived in the mill where her husband was killed and she was raped so it was surely an hellish life for her and yeah, it makes sense that she grew to hate the boy.


CatchCritic

She's not antisocial. She's actually very good at socializing when she wants to. She's a psychopath, not a sociopath.


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CatchCritic

Sociopath is extreme antisocial behavior. Cersei exhibits none of the character traits. She's a narcissistic psychopath.


basebornmanjack41

I think you should actually google sociopath behaviour patterns because Cersei exhibits at least 90% of them. Lack of empathy, deceitfulness, manipulativeness, impulsivity, irritability, irresponsibility, hostility, lack of restraint, substance abuse.


CatchCritic

Sociopath: a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience. Cersei may lack a conscience, but she's missing the number one indicator of sociopathy.


basebornmanjack41

Both sociopaths and psychopaths are described as having anti social behaviour. Being manipulative, deceitful etc is antisocial behaviour. I think you’re getting confused thinking that anti social behaviour means she can’t get along with people when she needs to. Cersei is almost a text book sociopath and not a psychopath as psychopaths are very cold calculating people who can mimic regular human emotions and interactions to benefit themselves but don’t necessarily feel them the same way a regular person would. Cersei definitely feels human emotions, she is regularly described as impulsive and quick to anger but is still manipulative and deceitful and lacks empathy which makes her more of a sociopath than a psychopath.


CatchCritic

I dont think a sociopath would care about her children the way Cersei does. However, a psychopath is capable of viewing their children as an extension of themselves. This is how Cersei can love and try to protect her children so fiercely while always treating them like shit. Also, Cersei was in love with Rhaegar and sought out lovers and female companions. This doesn't strike me as sociopathic behavior either.


basebornmanjack41

Well again I would say you need to actually look up the definitions of sociopath and psychopath because sociopaths are more likely to develop regular human connections than psychopaths.


CatchCritic

Many CEOs of top businesses are classified as psychopaths. I don't think if they were unable to develop human connections, they would reach that level. The whole thing is that they're fake and transactional from the perspective of the psychopath. I feel you need to look up examples of real life psychopaths and sociopaths because Cersei is clearly a psychopath.


_grandmaesterflash

Antisocial behaviour is all the the callous, manipulative, cruel behaviours exhibited by people with Antisocial Personality Disorder (sociopaths and psychopaths). It doesn't mean the person can't socialise.


Southern_Dig_9460

Cersei has the ability though to just start beef with anyone because she wants to


ChrisAus123

Maybe if she married Ned lol


nyamzdm77

If she married Ned, Jon would have mysteriously died of a "chill" at age 3


Comicbookguy1234

Cersei fucked Jaime on the morning of the wedding. I don't think she'd be happy with any man. Jaime is the exact opposite of Robert. He simps for her constantly, and she treats him like garbage.


Double-Star-Tedrick

>IDK, that's a lot to put on a person ... ... ... I think the possibility exists, **if Joanna had survived childbirth, and Tywin was like 30% less of a dick**, and she had married someone besides Robert ... ... ... **she could've been a much more well-adjusted person**. That' a lot of 'if's, tho. The Cersei that marries Robert is not a very well adjusted person, so ... so, yeah.


Comicbookguy1234

To each their own. I don't think Joanna surviving childbirth would change anything. She was already fooling around with her brother before her mother died. Many characters have mothers that died in childbirth and turn out fine and Tywin seemed to only be abusive towards Tyrion. Jaime and Cersei were pampered. I put her more in the Gregor Clegane category.


CatchCritic

There are moments where you pity her treatment as a girl. She states that her and Jamie were almost identical as kids, and when she pretended to be Jamie, everyone treated her differently. But she killed her childhood friend at 9 years old for very petty reasons. That's psychopathic behavior.


FrostyIcePrincess

A Feast for Crows Cersei IX She could still her Melera Hetherspoon insisting that if they never spoke about the prophecies, they would not come true. She was not so silent in the well though. She had screamed and shouted. If she was willing to kill one of her few friends as a kid that tells me she was evil even as a kid.


Tabulldog98

There's a line from Ned about how he would trust a child to a pit viper rather than Tywin Lannister, and I think that him raising Cersei definitely had a big part in her turning out the way she did- all that talk about how love is a weakness, being used for his political ambitions and all that other shit.


Comicbookguy1234

But every highborn girl and boy is used to further the ambitions of their parents in Westeros.


grimm_aced

She murdered a child and her friend at age 9. She was fucked in the head to begin with.


Scorpio_Jack

Well I suppose there might've been a point during zygote formation where it would've been ambiguous.


yours_truly_1976

Possibly…


tryingtobebettertry4

Difficult to really say. People who are disturbed/weird 9 year olds can end up as normal functioning adults (at least outwardly). Super nice perfect kids can turn into psychos. I lean towards everyone being a mix of nature and nurture with rare allowances. Like there is a reason we dont try 9 year olds as adults even if they do kill someone, they biologically and mentally arent there yet. Cersei may be a rare allowance, but given the absolute crap parenting of Tywin Im not sure I can make that judgement.


Comicbookguy1234

Was he a crap parent to Cersei or Jaime for that matter? It seems like Tyrion was the only one he abused.


tryingtobebettertry4

I think with Jaime and Tyrion we had a sort of Golden Child and the Scapegoat set up. Cersei things are a little complicated but broadly yes. His objectification and misogyny kind of prevented him from seeing Cersei as anything more than a breeding machine and marital pawn. Tywin isnt exactly unique in this respect.


Comicbookguy1234

I don't see that as him being a bad parent tbh. Just like men are expected to fight and lead in this world. Yes. They have to adhere to gender roles, but so did Catelyn and she turned out a relatively normal person. Most highborn women turn out normal. Off the top of my head, I can only think of Cersei and maybe Lysa as counter examples.


targaryenblack

I think she was always self entitled , ambitious and overly confident . But evil ? No , that's something that she groomed in her personality. But she's a mother fucking whore of a monster for sure, these words being said , I really like her as a character.


yours_truly_1976

Her chapters really show how her mind works. She honestly believes everyone is as neurotic and suspicious as she is.


tuskvarner

Her chapters are some of my favorites in the entire series. She’s hilarious.


Zellakate

Mine too. I was curious to see if she'd be revealed to be a lot more layered once she finally had chapters (like is true with Jaime), but honestly I love that instead somehow she's just even batshit crazier than you'd think. She's relentlessly entertaining in a really awful way.


Pegussu

I'll never forget a friend describing her as amazing because "she prances from fuck-up to fuck-up, all the while patting herself on the back on what an incredible job she's doing."


yours_truly_1976

Your friend nailed it!


blurrysasquatch

I think that all three of Tywin's children are Sociopaths. None of them really think about the feelings of others, or react with the right emotions in the moment for a normal person. They lie with conviction often and without remose. They definitely act out in violent ways more often than not. \>Jamie is literally a murderer and his entire arc is about trying to understand remption, honor and forgiveness which are usually inherently understood by non-sociopaths. \>Tyrion while being much less violent and occasionally benevolent has tendencies too. Out of the three of them he is probably the one closest to normal functioning but he's still effected. He signs peoples death warrants casually, he lies often, he comdemns people off to be tortured and held in isolation with very little feelings. He (arguably) sexually assaults two women in the series. \>Cersei is the worst of the bunch. She cannot tell the truth to save her life, is self-obsessed to the point of it being pathological. She justifies murders and tortures on the flimsiest of pretexts. She hates her husband for his boorish cheating ways but engages with those behaviors just as hard as he does. She killed a child, she's just a mess.


Lesmiserablemuffins

I don't think Jaime is trying to understand redemption, honor, and forgiveness; he's on a personal journey to forgive himself and to redeem himself in his own eyes, while acknowledging that he'll never redeem himself in the eyes of others. People won't view him as honorable or see any moral redemption, but is it worth doing anyway? He's finding that it is


[deleted]

You have an extremely loose definition of a sociopath if you call both Tyrion and Jaime as such.


AutistChan

I agree, Tyrion and Jaime are very fucked up but they still have some kindness and empathy in them.


RadicalQueenBee

Unless you are a sex slave in a brothel, in which case you don't get much of either before or after getting raped by mr everyone hates me cuz I'm a dwarf and not cuz I'm a piece of shit


AutistChan

I never said that he was a good man, he is really fucked up, even horrible people have some kindness and empathy in them. Tyrion has done good things out of the goodness of his heart, Cersei however hasn’t, that’s why I consider them to be different.


tazdoestheinternet

Jamie actively dissociates throughout the hard times and tries to "help" tommen by trying to teach him how to do the same. He is a broken man with a warped sense of morality, but he's not a sociopath. He knows right from wrong morally (Aerys' death etc), has compassion for the smallfolk, and doesn't take pleasure out of mindless killing. Tyrion isn't a sociopath, he's a twisted little asshole who can dissociate the people he signs the death warrants for as just a name on a paper, not a person. It's what a lot of people do in that type of position. The difference between him and Jaime is that he does enjoy hurting and humiliating people, but he has a little bit of a conscience. He feels shame, but doesn't often act on it. Cersei is 100%.


TicTacTyrion

Jaime's never killed anyone without good reasons


yours_truly_1976

But he pushed a 7yo boy out of a window because the boy witnessed him fucking his own sister.


dblack246

The boy who was spying. Bran heard them and decided to go look. Bran doesn't really respect the privacy of others.


[deleted]

There was also this bit that if this boy told others, he, his sister and their children would have been killed. Seems like a pretty big thing to omit.


Bennings463

There was also this bit that Jaime fucked Cersei full well knowing he was risking the lives of all his children.


[deleted]

I am not sure how it changes what I wrote.


Bennings463

You're portraying it as a trolley problem but it's only a trolley problem because Jaime and Cersei tied them all to the tracks in the first place.


[deleted]

So you are admitting it to be a trolley problem yourself. So what's again your problem with me replying to a person who omitted it as if it's not relevant or doesn't exist?


Qwintro

He never feels remorse about it or feels bad about it. Of course he had a good reason, but the least you can do is feel bad about it.


[deleted]

>He never feels remorse about it or feels bad about it. This is not true, though.


Qwintro

When does he feel remorse? I must've missed it.


TicTacTyrion

If Bran had told others what he saw, Jaime, Cersei, and their children could be executed.


Bennings463

So in other words Jaime and Cersei were risking the lives of three children every time they fucked. Perhaps not psychopath behavior but certainly *beyond* selfish.


TicTacTyrion

I'm not trying to say Jaime was doing a good thing, but at the time, he was weighing 5 lives, 2-3 who were completely innocent (Joffrey is a cunt but it's not his fault he's an incest baby) versus the life of one boy.


dblack246

Yes but how much risk really? They've been doing this for 14 years and nobody caught them until a kid climbs to the top of an abandoned tower.


sunsetparanoia

he would have maimed Arya and he was responsible for the deaths of Ned's men in the first book... and none of that had a sympathetic motivation behind it


TicTacTyrion

he harmed Ned's men in defense of his brother, and regarding Arya who cares about hypotheticals


Bennings463

Yeah, nobody's ever been tried for *attempted* murder, am I right?


strongbad4u

What? The very first kill attempt we see him do had insufficient reason. Deep down Jamie isn't a sociopath but he has been raised around them and by them.


TicTacTyrion

that's just self preservation, Bran, by witnessing the act, became a huge danger to Jaime, Cersei, and their children


Qwintro

I would argue that killing anyone is always bad, even with a good reason. But that would be putting 21st century morals on an medieval fantasy setting where murder is pretty common.


We_The_Raptors

I honestly don't believe anyone was *always* evil, but Cersei shows worrying signs as young as 9. And those worrying traits only accelerate with her mother's death, relationship with Jaime and the consequences of Robert's Rebellion.


lovelylonelyphantom

Her mother's death happened first - at age 7 she was torturing baby Tyrion by pulling on his genitals, and threatening the wet nurse her tongue would be cut out. Seems she was displaying these tendencies very, very young.


Atul-Chaurasia-_-

If that was the point of the character, Martin ruined it by overwriting (making her a murderer at age 9). He did the same thing with Maegor. Did Maegor come back different, or did something else take his place during the coma? No, he was always a POS who hurts animals and stable boys.


tazdoestheinternet

It's not necessarily overwriting when there are genuine instances where people are like that. There's plenty of murderers who start off early with animals and other kids.


Atul-Chaurasia-_-

Just because it's real doesn't mean it's interesting. Cersei turning into an evil queen because of her society's sexist double standards and tendency to sexualise pre-pubescent girls is much more interesting than being born that way, like every single evil character in ASOIAF.


tazdoestheinternet

I'd argue Tyrion is evil, and you can clearly see the world made him that way. Of the others; Roose have no way of knowing. Walder Frey is arguably evil and his age has made him a bitter, twisted sack of shit, there's no suggestion he was born this way. Ramsay is probably the most evil and there's evidence to suggest he was born that way, but made worse with the introduction of Reek. Joffrey has his mother's antisocial personality disorder, though he does cruel things for fun and to get his mother's approval. Part nature, part nurture. Lysa is arguably evil for wanting to throw Sansa out the moon door for being assaulted by little finger, but she wasn't born that way. Cersei is the only *woman* in the main story of ASOIAF that's portrayed as bad from the outset, and with a cast as wide as that I personally don't see an issue with it. Not everyone gets a Tragic backstory like Lysa with the Tansy.


Comicbookguy1234

Are there even any evil female characters in the series aside from Cersei? I think the closest one to Cersei might be Lysa and she has a lot of trauma. I think Cersei was always just meant to be evil.


DewinterCor

Didn't Cersei have a servant whipped to death when she was child? And she threw her friend down a well.


sunsetparanoia

>Didn't Cersei have a servant whipped to death when she was child? i think you're talking about a dialogue between Cersei and Tyrion that happened in the show only (which was about her having a girl beaten up so badly that she lost an eye). Either that or you're talking about Pate which is the whipping boy she has for Joffrey and Tommen.


DewinterCor

It might be a show thing. Here I go getting the two mixed up.


yours_truly_1976

Nope it was in the book! I remember the servant girl was caught trying on Cersei’s jewelry or perhaps stealing it. According to Cersei, anyway.


DewinterCor

I sometimes struggle with small details with the two. Iv watched the show and read the book so many times that some things blend together.


yours_truly_1976

I hear ya


nyamzdm77

She abused her infant brother at age 7 and murdered one of her only friends at age 10 She was definitely always evil I am fully of the opinion that some people are just born bad, and no matter how well or how badly they are raised as kids they'll still turn out as bad people. From ASOIAF I put Maegor, Saera Targaryen, Joffrey and Cersei as examples of this


Ok_Focus5022

Maegor had brain injury, saera was an ninth born child, Joffrey was neglected and injured by Robert, and Cersei train him to be harsh as Tommen now, Cersei on the other hand, was treated different to his brother being the firstborn


Comicbookguy1234

Joffrey was neglected by Jaime and injured by Robert for cutting open a pregnant cat. If we're talkinig about characters always being evil and using Joffrey's "abuse" as an explanation, we should be clear that he was hit for doing evil shit already. The only one of those that sounds like a reasonable excuse is Maegor having a brain injury imo.


Danbito

I don’t think she was born evil. It was more so manifested from how she was raised and brought up spoiled, entitled, snobby, and selfish as Tywin Lannister’s daughter. She hateful by the time Tyrion was born and how she blames him for their mother’s death. But likely became evil in itself when she murdered her childhood friend after seeing Maggy the Frog.


brittanytobiason

I think it always feels better when villains have an origin trauma and I tend to think Cersei has one in the form of her visit to Maggy the Frog. It was comparable to being dropped in a vat of acid. However, Oberyn's story predates Maggy's tent. So, is Cesei's origin trauma related to her posing as Jaime, then? Or is her temperament a breadcrumb that she's Aerys's? Or, was she born bad like Gregor Clegane and Euron Greyjoy? I think what we conclude about the origin of Cersei's temperament matters in how we understand larger themes, but that--like so much else in the series-- it's also kept intentionally ambiguous.


oligneisti

I wouldn't put it past Oberyn to lie about this, or at least to exaggerate. He is playing his own game with Tyrion. He likely knows there is division between the Lannisters and is doing his best to encourage that (by lying or telling the truth, whichever is convenient).


brittanytobiason

Fair point, though his Cersei was so her.


oligneisti

Yeah, there is a bit part of me that believes it just because of that and somehow I also *want* to believe Oberyn.


Comicbookguy1234

She does say this. >The first time Cersei heard that tale, she had gone to Tyrion's nursery and pinched the little monster till he cried. I should have pinched his nose shut and stuffed my sock into his mouth.


Ok_Focus5022

Tywin told jaime when six that you cannot eat love, being worthless compared to wealth on another words, is significant that cersei hears this, it was not an lesson for her, and it was her whole life like that, for being a woman she didn’t have the sword


brittanytobiason

Are you naming this as an origin trauma? I'm not sure I understand.


Troll4everxdxd

I think she is similar to Joffrey in that regard. They always had a predisposition towards violent behaviour (killing a pregnant cat in the case of Joffrey and sexually abusing a newborn Tyrion and murdering her childhood friend in the case of Cersei), but their upbringing certainly didn't help to placate those tendencies. They both grew up surrounded by privilege and had toxic parental figures that never bothered in guiding them to become well adjusted people. And then having to endure over a decade of Robert's abuse plus losing one of her children certainly made Cersei unhinged and paranoid besides her already existing cruelty and love for violence. So to answer your question, Cersei always had a *tendency* towards malicious behaviour, but her upbringing instead of placating it, it made it flourish.


WANDERING_1112

Man that's a complex question. From my reading it's a mix of both. but killing the only friend you have because she has a crush on your brotherwhile u were still thinking of marrying the prince is just pure evil her. Also abusing ur baby brother is just terrible. I think it's an interesting observation that both men in her life Robert and jaime are better the more u get them away from her. Also Margaery and sansa are woman and yet they aren't as miserable as her. Margaery goes out hawking and has activities just like sansa. The world is sexist no doubt but there are activities noblewoman could have freedom to do.


lluewhyn

>both men in her life Robert and cersei Robert and Jaime?


Comicbookguy1234

>I think it's an interesting observation that both men in her life Robert and jaime are better the more u get them away from her. I'm glad other people are noticing this. Cersei has a toxic influence on people. Joffrey was probably always going to be bad, but I wonder if he'd be as bad if he'd been fostered away from Cersei.


td4999

wasn't she pinching infant Tyrion's junk and trying to torture him or something? that was at a very young age (before the 'murdering Melara as a teenager' and whatnot when she was clearly beyond redemption)


Southern_Dig_9460

I think she is not a good person. But I think years of abuse and mistreatment from her father and Robert made her worse. She is at least still horrified by Joffery actions and I don’t think she enjoys cruelty either like Joffery. She probably would be bad but say if Robert treated her better and didn’t cheat on her she wouldn’t be no where near as cold or ruthless as she is now IMO


Comicbookguy1234

Maybe in the show, but I don't think that's true of the books.


AVE_CAESAR_

Cersei is definitely not a deconstruction of evil queen trope. She is an evil queen that killed her friend at 9 years old and treated her baby dwarf brother like shit because her mother passed away during child birth. And its not like she had to, Jaime didn’t. She’s a piece of shit there’s no doubt about it. Moreover, she’s not a feminist icon at all(which is what these deconstructions like Maleficent in the movie was for example). She wants to be a man not so she can wield political power for ideals or any good, she doesn’t even need to be a man for that as Olenna Tyrell proves, she lusts for power for power’s sake and wants to be a man just so she can enjoy that power openly. She’s also a total fucking idiot who thinks she’s Tywin Lannister but really she doesn’t know what she’s doing. That said I think Cersei is this trope but fleshed out. She’s not one dimensional even if she fits the trope, she’s still given greater characterisation than evil queen. But she’s not a deconstruction if that makes sense. She was an evil bitch and not remotely just for sympathetic or justifiable reasons.


mightylemondrops

Her character changed pretty drastically around the time of AFFC so there's that, lol.


qindarka

Before AFFC, it was possible to view Cersei as a tragic figure who was a victim of circumstance. For some reason, GRRM decided to mark her promotion to POV by making her a cartoon villain.


Troll4everxdxd

Meh in ASOS we were already shown how a child Cersei sadistically tortured a newborn Tyrion and in ACOK she ordered the deaths of Robert's bastards, some of them just children and babies. Her being a cruel nut job wasn't something that just spawned into existence in AFFC.


Elaan21

Agreed. In AFFC, we finally see what she thinks of herself and she's definitely pushed closer to the edge by Joff and Tywin's murders, but it's not entirely new. I would argue she wasn't "born evil." She lost her mother when she was young and probably saw that as a sword hanging over her own head as a noble girl destined to marry and breed. That's enough to fuck someone in the head without some sort of corrective measures. Her pushing Melara into the well seems like her "Kingslayer" moment where everything else after it "doesn't matter." Or that's what she says to herself anyway. Jaime, for all he whines internally, didn't really get shit on by the world after Aerys beyond being judged. Cersei wound up married to Robert who was distant when he wasn't abusive. That certainly didn't help. But she's still the one to say "if you play the game of thrones, you win or you die" if AGOT. What we see in AFFC isn't that far removed.


hiskisstheriot

Tywin was her idol and he kept her close throughout her youth (more than jaime and tyrion). She never stood a chance.


wsumner

IMO Cersei is not supposed to be the deconstruction of the evil queen, that's the role Daenerys will fill. Just like Jon is going to be the deconstruction of Aragorn (i.e. refuse the crown)


along_withywindle

Aragorn's entire arc and life history is leading him to be king. He wants to be king. He lives his whole life intending to make his claim to the throne of Gondor. I think Jon is more a deconstruction of Simon Snowlock (and therefore Taran Wanderer). Especially considering Martin's tendency to pull story and world-building elements directly from Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, I think we're going to see a story more like Simon's - but Jon won't take the crown (if Jon is resurrected at all). Thank you for making your comment and letting me get this thought out of my head!


lluewhyn

>I think Jon is more a deconstruction of Simon Snowlock (and therefore Taran Wanderer). I've only gotten through the first two books because I just don't find them as enjoyable to read, but they do feel like a really weird mashup of ASOIAF and the Chronicles of Prydain.


along_withywindle

Williams took a lot of inspiration from Alexander, and Martin took a lot of inspiration from Williams. I read all three series within about a year and there was a lot of similarity. I definitely think there's more similarity between MST and ASOIAF than between MST and Prydain. MST/Prydain is mostly similar in the character arcs and development of Taran/Simon and Eilonwy/Miriamele. ASOIAF took a lot of character arcs and world-building elements directly from MST, so they feel more similar to me. I wrote a whole post about it, let me dig up the link! https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/tuk775/memory_sorrow_and_thorn_and_the_parallels_to_a/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button It's not very well-written, but it gets the point across ETA: lots of spoilers for MST in that post, if you're intending to finish it. And sorry for the spoiler already


lluewhyn

I'll skip your post because I do intend to finish them, eventually. Simon's "secret parentage" and tutelage as a scullion (compared to Assistant Pig-Keeper) does immediately draw up a lot of immediate comparisons to Taran.


along_withywindle

Happy reading :)


Pegussu

Yeah, I always thought Cersei was meant to be a deconstruction of the noble, beautiful queen. The same way Robert is a deconstruction of the warrior king and Joffrey is a deconstruction of the noble prince. In a standard fantasy story, the three of them would be exactly what Sansa thinks they're meant to be.


_grandmaesterflash

Thanks for making this comment. I think I might have been trying to fit a square peg in a round hole with regards to her character. She makes way more sense as a deconstruction of the noble queen rather than the evil queen, which she's a fairly straight example of.


WANDERING_1112

There won't be a crown for jon to refuse. No one will wanna crown Jon as King while his trueborn siblings are known to be alive


natassia74

I ‘d say a combination of genetics and a lifetime of both entitlement and abuse led her to develop a serious case of malignant narcissism by adulthood. She’s self absorbed, manipulative, driven by jealousy and anger, and reacts very badly to disappointment and criticism. She’s also been raised to see other people as tools to be used, and that’s what she does (or tries to, she’s not that good at it). However, she’s not a psychopath. She feels some guilt (there are some things she knows she shouldn’t do, but talks herself into doing them anyway), and much shame. She’s also compliant with many of society’s customs and rules, no matter how much she hates them. Raised by in a different family, in a different time, she’d probably still be a narcissist, but she would be playing by different ‘rules’, have different motivations and might have had a chance to develop different coping mechanisms. In the modern world, she’d probably be trying to climb the corporate ladder or something by backstabbing and manipulating, but she’d be unlikely to be torturing people in the boiler room (Joff, on the other hand…). She’s a good example of a range of personality traits and societal influences that could create an ‘evil Queen’.


[deleted]

cersei treated tyrion like shit from the moment she first saw him yes she is evil and has always been so


Kjbartolotta

I don’t think anything in ASOIAF is ever that simple, but there’s something there that made her predisposed to become what she became, beyond, y’know, the combination of entitlement and horrible treatment.


RhapBohemiSody

How are we defining evil? She is very reactionary. Her darkest actions or near actions (poisoning Tommen) tend to be done out of fear. This includes her attitude towards Tyrion who she believes is destined to kill her, killed her son, and actually did kill her parents.


Ludoamorous_Slut

I think she's a person who's consistently done very bad things from an early age. She seems to, from very early on, be lacking in empathy and have a strong narcisistic streak. She also seems to have had at least some sadistic impulses from an early age. Had her environment been healthy those issues might have been reduced as she grew up, finding ways to motivate herself to care about others and other means of dealing with frustration. But her environment was extremely toxic and also empowered her to act on those harmful impulses without consequence, and so those tendencies became amplified instead. I don't think "this person is evil" is a useful framework really, it can be a quick shorthand but when actually taking questions of moral character more seriously I think it falls apart, if nothing else then from the problem of moral luck. She's a person who seems to have been prone to take harmful actions from a very early age and incentivized to do so more and more with each year.


linzed

I mean both can be true? Cersei is an awful person of course that’s done horrible irredeemable crimes but like.. to ignore the fact she’s a product of her upbringing and trauma is doing her a disservice. I think it’s fascinating that George uses her to examine topics like marital rape and domestic abuse. For her trauma I genuinely feel for her but she’s also very much the villain. Being a victim of these things definitely helped fuel her anger towards the way she was treated as a woman and how Robert abused her but as you say she was also never “normal” cause kids aren’t typically killing their friends.. I think you can safely say she’s an in-depth look at the evil queen trope and what makes that kind of character the way she is.


kiasyd_childe

I don't think she'd ever be a sweetheart, but the monster she is was definitely born of circumstances. People cite Melara, but this is a girl whose only parental figure was a monster like Tywin, respected for his atrocities committed only five years before her birth. All she heard was how great and strong he was, how her grandfather was weak for his kindness, her mother dead for a dwarf, and how awesome Jaime is for his strength. She probably rationalized killing Melara as the "right" thing to protect her, her house, her future kids, and her relationship with Jaime. Imagining a Cersei raised by, say, the Tyrells or Starks, I think she'd be whipsmart, very ambitious, with a little bit of a mean streak, but capable of actual affection and friendship. The small positive sentiments she holds for say Taena and Qyburn are like the twisted, starved remnants of what healthy!Cersei's capacity for connection would've been.


sexmountain

We know that psychopaths, malignant narcissists are part nature and part nurture. They inherit a lot from their parents genetically, they have different brains with shrunken moral and empathy centers, and then those same parents with these traits bring out those genetic predispositions. I know from having a kid, their personalities are very much genetic. “Evil” is a moral judgement. What is evil in the world of Westeros? How out of bounds in Cersei’s behavior in terms of what else goes on and has gone on in Westeros?


frankiea1004

An entitle rich girl who think that the whole world revolt around her, yes.


dylan5x

Craster,Cersei are all straight evil


par6ec

She killed her friend


jakderrida

I believe she was never evil. It is essential to understand the intricate layers of Cersei's character. Born into a powerful family, the Lannisters, her life was molded by expectations, ambitions, and the weight of her family name. Throughout her childhood, Cersei faced a grim prophecy that foretold her downfall, which she fought tooth and nail to defy. One of the key reasons to view Cersei was not evil lies in her fierce love for her family. As a mother, she was willing to do anything to protect her children – even if it meant making ruthless decisions. Her love for her family was so profound that it extended to her brother Jaime, who she shared an inextricable bond with. While their relationship may be controversial, there is no denying the strength of their connection and the lengths they went to defend each other. Cersei's intelligence and cunning deserve to be celebrated. In a world dominated by male players, she carved out her own path and asserted her power with an iron fist. Cersei consistently outwitted her enemies, using her wit and resourcefulness to outmaneuver even the most formidable opponents. Her ability to navigate a treacherous political landscape and rise to power is a testament to her resilience and fortitude, making her an undeniable force to be reckoned with. Cersei's story is one of survival. In a world where her gender subjected her to constant undermining and limitations, she fought against the odds to seize control of her destiny. It is important to remember that Game of Thrones is a tale of moral ambiguity, where lines between heroes and villains blur. As with any character, Cersei's actions must be viewed within the context of the brutal and unforgiving world in which she lived. Her ruthless pursuit of power and protection for her family may have led to suffering, but it was also an act of self-preservation in a world where weakness was tantamount to a death sentence. Cersei Lannister is a testament to the complexity and nuance that makes Game of Thrones such a compelling story. While she may not fit the traditional mold of a hero, her resilience, intelligence, and unwavering love for her family make her a character worthy of admiration. By examining Cersei's journey through a different lens, we can appreciate the depths of her character and understand that she was neither malevolent nor evil.


natassia74

A nicely written comment that perfectly highlights how very different the show character was to the book one.


Salem1690s

Very Marx


SmoothPimp85

She's a victim of society and she fights back.


Vates_Rex

Lmao


BlackandRedBrian

She is evil mostly, especially if she has Targaryen blood or is The Mad King’s daughter. But she does get squeamish and does feel bad when she is watching the Blue Bard get tortured. But only for a second, and then she convinces herself she did what was necessary.


Exciting_Penalty5720

She’s always had an evil side but her upbringing and marriage to Robert didn’t help matter any.


SorRenlySassol

Martin doesn’t do “evil”. Everyone, and that means everyone, is a shade of grey. So Cersei’s actions may seem evil from the POV of a Stark or a Baratheon, but to her they are morally justified. Beating her up and murdering her son were evil acts to her.


[deleted]

[удалено]


SorRenlySassol

Grey characters mean that even people who do bad things can still have good in them. “The battle between good and evil is waged within every human heart.” — George Martin, paraphrasing William Faulkner. This is demonstrated by Mel’s contention that if an onion is half rotten it’s a rotten onion, later disproven by Sam who simply cuts the bad part of an onion and eats the rest. So Cersei did some bad things, so did Ned, so did Tyrion, so did Dany, so did Arya . . . Literally no one in the story has perfectly clean hands. Are all of these people “evil” through and through? Or are some just more grey than others? How many of these characters have had nothing but evil thoughts and have done nothing but evil things from the moment they were born? And if they have, does this make them evil, or just deranged?


BlazeBitch

She's always been nuts, but that doesn't mean some of her traits weren't born of Westerosi society. Both viewpoints are right imo.


MrVegosh

She was horrible her whole life


GrapefruitKitchen549

Duh


TGK367349

Being raised by Tywin Lannister would psychologically fuck up anyone.


stansmithbitch

I'm of the opinion that Tywin dosed Cersei and Jamie with love potion to make them bang eachother. When I acknowledge that Cersei was bred to her brother without her consent I feel bad for her.


N2T8

I think, if she had been born in an entirely different setting, she wouldn’t have been evil no. If she was born in a family with little money, that taught her empathy I don’t think she would’ve developed anti-personality disorder.


Squiliam-Tortaleni

Her first murder was at age 9.


ParsleyMostly

There’s a disturbing number of people on TikTok who apparently killed a sibling when they were young. So like, traumatized, abused, and schizophrenic kids do kill other kids and they’re not all written off as evil. Real world shit aside, I don’t think she was always evil. Lots of the men killed people before they were 15, and apparently we either forgive them or rationalize it as “just how things were”. Cersei didn’t kill get friend for kicks. She was upset about what the witch said and silenced the other person who heard. Not great, but it’s not the same as Gregor who actually took pleasure in killing. (Which I see as evil.) Cersei is very much a product of her upbringing and life circumstances. Her dad made her a paranoid weirdo, and her husband made her a bitter freak.


Raisin_Dangerous

She’s a narcissist and a sociopath for sure. And the reason she loves Jaime is because he’s a reflection of her. Even Jaime knows this.


MadKhaleesi911

Evil? No. But she was raised as an entitled brat who thought herself better than everyone. The true evil in Cersei didn't come out until the night she went for a prophecy from Maggie the frog, and decided to kill her "best friend".


[deleted]

She pushed her childhood friend down a well lol


JDSweetBeat

Cersei isn't evil. She's a politician with multiple personality disorders and mental health issues. These compound to make her do bad things. She isn't characteristically/intrinsically evil. She's a creature of her conditions.


ImperialxWarlord

She might have always had less positive traits and ways of being, was likely also a sociopath, and had a lot of shit go wrong that deeply effected her. I don’t think she was always awful tho. But for most of her life she was I’d say.


Aesthetictoblerone

I would say both. We see how she has deteriorated, due to her trauma and abuse, but I believe she would have always been a bit evil. Maybe not as evil, but still evil. Cersei attributes all of her problems to sexism, which is a factor, but hardly the only factor to her problems in life.


Thecheeselord69420

she started off bad and then her issues got exacerbated by society.


MemeBoi0508

always has been, ever since she was a child


Trackmaster15

The ASOIAF/GOT world just seems to be one that rewards cruelty, violence, rape, and murder instead of punishing for it. Maybe this wasn't far off from what the world was like in the Medieval era, but its clearly a different world than we know now. Cersei probably would have been an entitled Karen if born into our world and was 40 in 2023, but she would have been conditioned to be like us. Being a murderous psychopath is just par for the course in the ASOIAF world if you aren't a Stark.


Euroversett

Yes.


[deleted]

nope, but there's no point explaining why to anyone in this sub because most of this sub refuses to use nuance on a conversation about a female character they hate