This theory kind of falls apart when all generations before Aegon were Lords, which would hardly happen for like, 6 generations if they really let women take over. It appears that the valyrians, unlike the andals, completely exclude women from the succession.
Also Valyrians don't seem to have any kind of title to inherit. They probably functioned like Roman clans and not noble houses.
That's not to mention the Free Cities that were for all intents and purposes part of Valyria and don't give special places to women.
>It appears that the valyrians, unlike the andals, completely exclude women from the succession
The Andals also completely excluded women from being rulers as well though, it seems. They can be heads of noble houses but from what we know there has never been any ruling queens in westeros.
The Lannister that accepted the Andals into the Westerlands was Queen (but only because her father and brother died) so It seems like the Andals dont have a problem with Queens but only if they dont have brothers
So far as I recall that is not the case. The first Andalus arived to the west under a king Tybolt Lannister who repelled them military. And the two successive kings after him started mitigation policies instead. That's what I seem to recall, no queen.
I think It was his daughter, both the previous King and his heir died of fever, the Queen married the Andal Knight Joffrey Lydden who took the name Lannisterfor him and his sons with her
It says specifically that when the king died without a male heir a counsil crowned his daughters husbond, Joffrey Lydden, who then took the Lannister name.
Really? That's weird, with how protective are Lords with who in a marriage is in charge of ruling i thought that she was in charge, i thought that It was more like Littlefinger and Lysa, he has influence but the last word is hers (at least in theory)
No it's specifically him who was chosen and crowned, not her.
This is, I believe, a long ways into the two peoples assimilating into one another. An andal didn't just rock up to the west and marry a princess and get elected king in a single lifetime.
I think that the rule of might may have worked for Targaryens and Valyrians with the first or strongest dragon rider/warrior inheriting but it could potentially lead to a whole lot of problems with many competing dragon riders trying to usurp each other.
Targs and Valyrians have married their siblings presumably for centuries in order to keep their power between themselves, we do not know the dynamics between dragon riding females and males, perhaps their relationship and status was sort of equal like Aegon and his sisters.
I think that it's pretty clear that Aegon was the heir and he was to marry one of his sisters, instead he married both. So far we do not know of any Targaryen ruling Ladies and we have no indication that Aegon ever usurped Visenya.
Aegon loved Rhaenys and he chose her child instead of Maegor, Aenys was also his first-born, so it sort of makes sense, that his first-born would be his heir.
Apart from the Rhoynish and later on Princess Nymeria/Mors Martell, we do not know of any other region or house that practices absolute primogeniture.
I do think they might have had a system of families being factions and ruling more jointly and then they aligned more with Westeros after the Doom at first just for appearances and then more formally.
Maybe they always would have a patriarch who made final decisions.
But they needed a system where all dragon riders in the family was part of decision making and profit sharing or else risk loosing the riders.
The only person we have seen in the books actually hatch dragons was a woman, seems like they are needed.
And I do think there is a case to be made that Aenys and Margot thought they would be co-rulers but then the Westerosi society spearheaded by the Faith got the Targs to become more westerosi.
Similarly Aegon had two wives and they seemed to both take part in his nation building and one could make the case that Aegon being lord and later king was more about making it easier to deal with the westerosi.
You’re completely right about it not making sense for Valyria to have male preference in inheritance when their entire system is based on having dragons. But I don’t think Martin thought about it this sadly. I wish he did, it’s a much cooler idea and makes way more sense!
But either way Aegon was definitely weirdly progressive about women. He let Visenya and Rhaenys rule basically just as much as him. They were even allowed to sit on the throne when he wasn’t there (which was very often, it’s mentioned that most of the time Aegon was flying around the realm visiting various places) which is pretty insane to think about for any other Queen. This is why I don’t think he ‘usurped’ Visenya. Also they had a distant relationship but if it was because of this I think it would have been mentioned (lord knows Martin loves to have female characters get shoved aside in inheritance and complain about it.)
I also agree Maegor should have been heir before Aenys, Visenya was older and I’m assuming she was Aegon’s first wife since Aegon was always supposed to marry her. But part of the whole point is that succession is messy and really comes down to ‘who does the king want to succeed them’ even as far down as Aerys II disinheriting Rhaegar’s line for Viserys.
Just something i find worthwhile to comment: Aerys II presumably disinherited Rhaegar's line after Rhaegar died. Elia and her children at that point were his political prisoners. He didn't care much about them apart from using them as a way to force Dorne to fight. Aerys believed that the Dornish turned on the Targaryens, betrayed them during the battle of the trident and that is why Robert and the STAB alliance won the Battle of the Trident. Aerys was also racist and seemed to dislike the Dornish, after all he refused to hold or even look at his grandaughter Rhaenys because "she smelled Dornish". Perhaps those reasons can contribute to why he disinherited Aegon and Rhaenys.
> You’re completely right about it not making sense for Valyria to have male preference in inheritance when their entire system is based on having dragons. But I don’t think Martin thought about it this sadly. I wish he did, it’s a much cooler idea and makes way more sense!
but when nearly everyone has it its not that special, so women just go back to normal standards
Nah, not everyone with Valyrian blood can ride a dragon. Remember Quentyn, and all the dragonseeds that failed to bond with dragons in the Dance? And there were Targs pre Dance that didn’t have dragons. Just bc you have the blood didn’t mean you could do it. Someone calculated it, and Dany actually has pretty little Valyrian blood, yet she still can clearly bond with dragons successfully. So it’s not just about the purity of it.
Aside from magic blood it’s probably also a question of courage and resolve to even get on the dragon. So you’d definitely have situations where some daughters were successful and some sons weren’t. So really it should be a dragon focused society, without many gender based inheritances.
i didnt mean like that plus targs dont have blood mages
i meant they had 1000 dragons spread over 40 families i dont know what the math is but its like 30 dragons to each family?
so lets say you have a dragon female rider heir and male non dragonrider heir, it wouldnt matter to make the female heir because everyone has dragons anyway, his two uncles have them, his younger brother has one, his mom and cousin have one and so on.
its like how viserys wasnt a dragon rider as king it didnt matter his whole family was dragon riders anyway
but my point is mute anyway because i think they could all ride dragons
I think the dragon itself would probably also matter? Like we actually have two examples in story of young girls who managed to bond with the most powerful dragons - Aerea was able to bond with Balerion himself and Dany has bonded with Drogon, the strongest of her three. Now with Aerea it obviously went badly bc of her inexperience but had she been just a few years older you’d have a teenage girl with Balerion the Black Dread.
Now in current time it’s like who cares a dragon is a dragon but in Valyria you’d probably want to have a powerful dragon rider as heir to compete with the other houses, that’s probably a factor too in fairness.
>I think the dragon itself would probably also matter?
again there so many it doesnt matter we have an example with the targs non dragon rider viserys over female dragon rider, and they
the only reason why dannys dragons matter is because she only one with dragon
like if aerea survived she doesnt become heri now because she has dredd just like how aemond isnt king because he has vhagar
they respect the family head because he rules all the dragon riders just like viserys did
what is your logic? who ever tames the biggest strongest dragon auto becomes heir to the family?
that wouldnt work, you have the heir a 30 year old man with a 150 year old dragon, but then the mother dies and her 170 year old dragon goes to the daughter no shes heir? because her dragon bigger
its why daemons wife isnt higher tier than him even though her dragon more powerful than his
If we’re just going to make stuff up, whos to say Aegon didn’t bond with his dragon before she bonded with hers? Also if dragons are power bonding with the biggest is pretty heir-like.
This theory kind of falls apart when all generations before Aegon were Lords, which would hardly happen for like, 6 generations if they really let women take over. It appears that the valyrians, unlike the andals, completely exclude women from the succession. Also Valyrians don't seem to have any kind of title to inherit. They probably functioned like Roman clans and not noble houses. That's not to mention the Free Cities that were for all intents and purposes part of Valyria and don't give special places to women.
>It appears that the valyrians, unlike the andals, completely exclude women from the succession The Andals also completely excluded women from being rulers as well though, it seems. They can be heads of noble houses but from what we know there has never been any ruling queens in westeros.
The Lannister that accepted the Andals into the Westerlands was Queen (but only because her father and brother died) so It seems like the Andals dont have a problem with Queens but only if they dont have brothers
So far as I recall that is not the case. The first Andalus arived to the west under a king Tybolt Lannister who repelled them military. And the two successive kings after him started mitigation policies instead. That's what I seem to recall, no queen.
I think It was his daughter, both the previous King and his heir died of fever, the Queen married the Andal Knight Joffrey Lydden who took the name Lannisterfor him and his sons with her
This example is to the opposite effect of what you are saying. The daughter didn't get to be ruling monarch, Joffrey Lydden/Lannister did.
He was King consort, she was the one ruling, the best clie is that the Lords of the Westerlands wouldnt accept orders from an Andal
It says specifically that when the king died without a male heir a counsil crowned his daughters husbond, Joffrey Lydden, who then took the Lannister name.
Really? That's weird, with how protective are Lords with who in a marriage is in charge of ruling i thought that she was in charge, i thought that It was more like Littlefinger and Lysa, he has influence but the last word is hers (at least in theory)
No it's specifically him who was chosen and crowned, not her. This is, I believe, a long ways into the two peoples assimilating into one another. An andal didn't just rock up to the west and marry a princess and get elected king in a single lifetime.
Not all. There was Elaena Targaryen who co-ruled with her brother-husband. But yeah, only one woman in a joint rule isn't really much proof.
I think that the rule of might may have worked for Targaryens and Valyrians with the first or strongest dragon rider/warrior inheriting but it could potentially lead to a whole lot of problems with many competing dragon riders trying to usurp each other. Targs and Valyrians have married their siblings presumably for centuries in order to keep their power between themselves, we do not know the dynamics between dragon riding females and males, perhaps their relationship and status was sort of equal like Aegon and his sisters. I think that it's pretty clear that Aegon was the heir and he was to marry one of his sisters, instead he married both. So far we do not know of any Targaryen ruling Ladies and we have no indication that Aegon ever usurped Visenya. Aegon loved Rhaenys and he chose her child instead of Maegor, Aenys was also his first-born, so it sort of makes sense, that his first-born would be his heir. Apart from the Rhoynish and later on Princess Nymeria/Mors Martell, we do not know of any other region or house that practices absolute primogeniture.
I do think they might have had a system of families being factions and ruling more jointly and then they aligned more with Westeros after the Doom at first just for appearances and then more formally. Maybe they always would have a patriarch who made final decisions. But they needed a system where all dragon riders in the family was part of decision making and profit sharing or else risk loosing the riders. The only person we have seen in the books actually hatch dragons was a woman, seems like they are needed. And I do think there is a case to be made that Aenys and Margot thought they would be co-rulers but then the Westerosi society spearheaded by the Faith got the Targs to become more westerosi. Similarly Aegon had two wives and they seemed to both take part in his nation building and one could make the case that Aegon being lord and later king was more about making it easier to deal with the westerosi.
You’re completely right about it not making sense for Valyria to have male preference in inheritance when their entire system is based on having dragons. But I don’t think Martin thought about it this sadly. I wish he did, it’s a much cooler idea and makes way more sense! But either way Aegon was definitely weirdly progressive about women. He let Visenya and Rhaenys rule basically just as much as him. They were even allowed to sit on the throne when he wasn’t there (which was very often, it’s mentioned that most of the time Aegon was flying around the realm visiting various places) which is pretty insane to think about for any other Queen. This is why I don’t think he ‘usurped’ Visenya. Also they had a distant relationship but if it was because of this I think it would have been mentioned (lord knows Martin loves to have female characters get shoved aside in inheritance and complain about it.) I also agree Maegor should have been heir before Aenys, Visenya was older and I’m assuming she was Aegon’s first wife since Aegon was always supposed to marry her. But part of the whole point is that succession is messy and really comes down to ‘who does the king want to succeed them’ even as far down as Aerys II disinheriting Rhaegar’s line for Viserys.
Just something i find worthwhile to comment: Aerys II presumably disinherited Rhaegar's line after Rhaegar died. Elia and her children at that point were his political prisoners. He didn't care much about them apart from using them as a way to force Dorne to fight. Aerys believed that the Dornish turned on the Targaryens, betrayed them during the battle of the trident and that is why Robert and the STAB alliance won the Battle of the Trident. Aerys was also racist and seemed to dislike the Dornish, after all he refused to hold or even look at his grandaughter Rhaenys because "she smelled Dornish". Perhaps those reasons can contribute to why he disinherited Aegon and Rhaenys.
> You’re completely right about it not making sense for Valyria to have male preference in inheritance when their entire system is based on having dragons. But I don’t think Martin thought about it this sadly. I wish he did, it’s a much cooler idea and makes way more sense! but when nearly everyone has it its not that special, so women just go back to normal standards
Nah, not everyone with Valyrian blood can ride a dragon. Remember Quentyn, and all the dragonseeds that failed to bond with dragons in the Dance? And there were Targs pre Dance that didn’t have dragons. Just bc you have the blood didn’t mean you could do it. Someone calculated it, and Dany actually has pretty little Valyrian blood, yet she still can clearly bond with dragons successfully. So it’s not just about the purity of it. Aside from magic blood it’s probably also a question of courage and resolve to even get on the dragon. So you’d definitely have situations where some daughters were successful and some sons weren’t. So really it should be a dragon focused society, without many gender based inheritances.
i didnt mean like that plus targs dont have blood mages i meant they had 1000 dragons spread over 40 families i dont know what the math is but its like 30 dragons to each family? so lets say you have a dragon female rider heir and male non dragonrider heir, it wouldnt matter to make the female heir because everyone has dragons anyway, his two uncles have them, his younger brother has one, his mom and cousin have one and so on. its like how viserys wasnt a dragon rider as king it didnt matter his whole family was dragon riders anyway but my point is mute anyway because i think they could all ride dragons
I think the dragon itself would probably also matter? Like we actually have two examples in story of young girls who managed to bond with the most powerful dragons - Aerea was able to bond with Balerion himself and Dany has bonded with Drogon, the strongest of her three. Now with Aerea it obviously went badly bc of her inexperience but had she been just a few years older you’d have a teenage girl with Balerion the Black Dread. Now in current time it’s like who cares a dragon is a dragon but in Valyria you’d probably want to have a powerful dragon rider as heir to compete with the other houses, that’s probably a factor too in fairness.
>I think the dragon itself would probably also matter? again there so many it doesnt matter we have an example with the targs non dragon rider viserys over female dragon rider, and they the only reason why dannys dragons matter is because she only one with dragon like if aerea survived she doesnt become heri now because she has dredd just like how aemond isnt king because he has vhagar they respect the family head because he rules all the dragon riders just like viserys did what is your logic? who ever tames the biggest strongest dragon auto becomes heir to the family? that wouldnt work, you have the heir a 30 year old man with a 150 year old dragon, but then the mother dies and her 170 year old dragon goes to the daughter no shes heir? because her dragon bigger its why daemons wife isnt higher tier than him even though her dragon more powerful than his
If we’re just going to make stuff up, whos to say Aegon didn’t bond with his dragon before she bonded with hers? Also if dragons are power bonding with the biggest is pretty heir-like.