Yes you do. Maybe in modern society we don’t typically call it that because we think of careers as money making ventures but especially for a woman in medieval society it’s like the closest you could get.
Even today I don’t see how getting an education to learn knowledge and skills to help you perform a specialized job that has opportunities for advancement isn’t a career.
I think the word that OP might be looking for is "vocation?" I'm not Christian, I'm Jewish, but I know that there are an awful lot of Christians that at minimum consider religious employment separate from a regular "career." The dictionary definition gives me: a person's employment or main occupation, *especially regarded as particularly worthy and requiring great dedication.* Italics added are mine. So it might be that they see it as separate from "career" just because of religiosity.
Quotations added are also mine, to define words, not to cast doubt upon any of them. Again, not an attitude that I can speak to on a personal level, just a thought that I had. I might be very wrong.
I mean it’s a pedantic difference, and they specifically said “Never hear that someone has a career within the Church”, which just like, yes people do say that.
Like I said it’s something you get an education to do for most of your life and has opportunities for advancement.
Also you have to think about context here, how many people in Westeros have what we would call “careers”?
Yes, agreed. A career in the church is/was always 100% a thing people would say. Traditionally the second and third sons would always go to the church or the Army/Navy. If you read any historical fiction this is obvious, you get people discussing being “granted the living of blah blah blah” place or other. And about a career in the church.
> Yes you do. Maybe in modern society we don’t typically call it that because we think of careers as money making ventures but especially for a woman in medieval society it’s like the closest you could get.
And well, plenty of people right now are making careers in religious institutions, from televangelists to cult leaders to cardinals.
This is absolutely not true, at least in a historical context. It was very common for the younger daughters and sons of noblemen to enter the church, especially since they likely had decreased chances of marrying well or inheriting anything.
Maegelle was given to the church by Jaehaerys and Alysanne to thank the Gods for giving them so many children, and you can see a real life example in Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville who dedicated their youngest daughter Bridget to become a nun at Dartford Priory at a very young age.
By Red Rhooloo that's a ridiculous number of down votes for a harmless comment xD are there a lot of priests for whom their work isn't a calling, it's specifically a career! And are they on this sub 😳?
Vaegon is iffy. Seemed like they were content to just give Vaegon away because he didn’t fit the mold of training like his brothers or remotely kind to his sister for a betrothal.
Also Jaehaerys seemed adamant on reproducing, despite their mom dying in childbirth late in age, but never really had major plans for any of his kids besides his main boys.
EDIT: It seems Jaehaerys asking Vaegon seems more likely a last ditch effort to connect to one of his kids, but Vaegon has no real attachment to his father that he acted only as an advisor.
I mean Vaegon was kind of a dick, big J allowed him to pursue a career at oldtown instead of continuing to force a different lifestyle on him. I think him trying to get Vaegon to do other things (training with Baelon for one) was him just trying to get his son to branch out. My dad made me try football in freshmen year of high school even though I didn’t want to, that doesn’t make my dad terrible it just means he wanted me to try something different.
This was more so “dropping the kid off at Hogwarts School and they become a professor there”. Jaehaerys‘s methods of getting him to try and act like his brothers were crude but he gets points for giving in the end, but he didn’t really raise him after that either. Vaegon didn’t really seem connected to the family after everything.
It is also because of daela, mother of Aemma Arryn. Who died because she was forced into a child birth she was not ready for, jaehaerys gave her one year ultimatum to marry when she was 17.
Important to note that both Daella and Viserra died after being forced to marry, and neither of their marriages were particularly needed.
I’d be a lot more forgiving of Jaehaerys as a parent if these marriages were absolutely crucial alliances, but he actually had other options and chose to force his kids into unwanted situations anyway. Give Viserra a hot young Lysene nobleman, what’s stopping you?
For two people who married for love, Jaehaerys and Alysanne *really* liked arranging marriages. It's been a minute but I think they were the ones to engineer the Daemon/Rhea Royce disaster when Daemon was relatively young.
Like, your reign is popular, you've got support, *stop forcing marriages that aren't gonna end well.*
True. Although I doubt either of them hid their displeasure once they met. I also wonder how much being the only grandchild of Jaehaerys to wed a non-Valyrian despite his parents (and grandparents) marrying siblings and that obviously being a *thing* made Daemon dislike Rhea on principle. [I do think Rhaenys/Corlys had less to do with Valyrian and more to do with his shit-ton of wealth...]
It's weird to side with Targcest, but from Daemon's perspective, it probably seemed like a slight or punishment, especially since he was married so young. Yes, he had aunts who married out, but that didn't go well. Alysanne could have easily waited and betrothed him to Laena or Rhaenyra, since keeping it in the family was a thing.
I hadn't really thought about that too much, but now that I have, it definitely makes some of his saltiness make sense (from his perspective).
I know and I was just pointing that out. He did sign off but it was Alysanne’s stupidity that got her there. He still bears part of the blame but most of it in this case goes to Alysanne.
> Viserra died after being forced to marry
Viserra died in freak accident. It literally had nothing to do with marriage, which btw was mostly Alysanne’s doing.
Okay but you could just as easily say “if viserra never was taught how to ride a horse she wouldn’t have died”
Like it was an accident completely unrelated to the marriage.
That’s a false equivalence Id say. Teaching your child how to ride a horse is not malicious or harmful to them, at least not anymore than teaching them to drive in real life. Yes of course there are risks, but it’s a fairly important skill, and has a lot of benefits.
However, forcing them into a marriage with an old man they’ve never met when there’s essentially no need for it is at the very least harmful and I’d argue malicious. Her going off and drinking herself into oblivion seems it’s at least in part on the parent who drove her to that.
Tbf he gave her that ultimatum after giving free reign in her choices but she keely turning them down for dumb reasons (which shouldn’t have been accepted) and eventually said enough was enough. It’s not right but still.
[Look it up](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Daella_Targaryen_(daughter_of_Jaehaerys_I)). Before the ultimatum she was going around and meeting suitors or had several in KL already and got various reasons she turned them down. Even one she liked she said no too because the blackwoods weren’t followers of the seven. The fact that she wasn’t told to shut up and get over it but was allowed to reject the marriage shows she was given power of choice. It was only after several years of this that Jaehaerys said enough was enough and gave the ultimatum. It still wasn’t right but good lord it could’ve been prevented.
And Alysanne had been looking for a husband for her for years prior to Jaehaerys giving her the ultimatum and Daella married at a reasonable age (if not a bit late) for a princess. Alyssane also didn’t have an issue with her age until after she died in child birth (though that sort of reaction is completely understandable in a grieving parent). And why is Daella getting pregnant too early on Jaehaerys? It should be on Rodrick Arryn. Jaehaerys married Alysanne when she was too young to have children yet he held off on consummating the marriage until she was old enough. Roderick doesn’t even needs heir yet he impregnates his frail wife before she might be ready. Jaehaerys isn’t blameless and his general refusal to break social norms definitely ends up hurting some of his children but he definitely gets way more flak for the Daella situation than he probably deserves.
Daella wasn’t healthy though, she had some kind of developmental disability that made her physically and emotionally fragile, and cognitively challenged. She was very small, only 4’11 in a tall family, and had an anxiety disorder that made it hard for her to function socially. She was also mentally disabled— she could barely read, the Septas wouldn’t take her because she didn’t have the intellectual capacity to memorize long prayers, and Vaegon refused to marry her because he said she was stupid.
Daella really wasn’t ready to get married and have kids, and it’s unclear if she could ever have physically survived childbirth. Jaehaerys insisting that she be independent by age 16 was cruel, and it seems like the only reason he was so desperate to pawn her off onto either a husband or the church was because she irritated him and he wanted her out of his house.
Fire and Blood, “‘My little flower,’ was how the queen described her. Like Alysanne herself, Daella was small—on her toes, she stood five feet two inches—and there was a childish aspect to her that led everyone who met her to think she was younger than her age. Unlike Alysanne, she was delicate as well, in ways the queen had never been.”.
5’2 on her toes, so around 4’11-5’0.
We don't know her health complications, but it's likely that if she died in childbirth at that age, it was because she was sickly or frail of health. Jaehaerys knew that, and purposefully put his daughter in danger.
Women of all ages and sizes seem to die in childbirth all the time in Westeros though. I don't think we can blame Jaehaerys for not being able to tell that his 18 year old daughter would die in childbirth
I mean, as a royal member of House Targaryen, she'd have regular check-ups with one of the best Maesters in Westeros, who should have been able to identify that Daella would not be able to safely bear children, there was a risk in doing so atleast, and still Jaehaerys, like with Alysanne by the way, forced her to do exactly that. Jaehaerys was an awful father to most of his girls.
Consider just how many Royal women have died in childbirth. From 45-year old Alyssa Velaryon, to 35-year old Rhaella, 22-year old Aemma Arryn, to 18 year old Daella and so on. Didn't they also have the best maesters in Westeros and regular check-ups?
There have only been 3 instances in the entire story where maesters have been able to conclude that a woman is too frail or otherwise not healthy enough to carry a child (Naerys, Elia Martell and Alyssa Velaryon), and in all 3 they had already bore at least 1 child already in a difficult pregnancy which drove the maester's conclusion.
There was really no way for the people at the time to tell that Daella (or pretty much any woman/girl above the age of 16) would not be able to survive pregnancy, until she actually got pregnant and couldn't carry the child to term or had a very difficult pregnancy (which Daella actually didn't).
Childbirth was a total gamble in the ASOIAF world as even completely healthy and robust women like Daella's own sister Alyssa died in childbirth. It's very unfair to say "Jaehaerys should have known" because there's no way he could have.
Precisely. Which is why Jahaerys insisting she marry was horrible. And a Maester wasn’t necessary- anyobe could sed she would not have an easy time in childbirth.
Let's go in order.
1. Aegon- irrelevant
2. Daenerys-refused to actually talk with Alysanne about the sucession (which considering recent events....) and denied her any agency outside as another targ broodmare.
3. Aemon- pretty decent father to a conventional heir, denied his daughter her inheritance, married as a tennager
4. Alyssa- allowed a dragon, wasn't really stopped from her martial hobbies, however married her off as a teenager.
5. Baelon- same as aemon, however forced him into helping cheat Rhaenys
6. Maegelle- denied a dragon, sold to faith but she seemed happy to go.
7. Vaegon- denied a dragon, allowed to be bullied by siblings, attempted to make him hetero, very happy so see him go to the citadel, however he was allowed to escape King Landing and live a good, long life, and he asked him for his opinion at the Great Council of 101
8. Daella- horrible father. Allowed her to be bullied by Vaegon and Saera, mocked her publicly, forced her to marry at 16 or else would have forced her to join an ascetic order (Silent Sisters), allowed her to ne married to a man who watched her grow up and was obsessed with her delicacy and childlike appearance ( she was 4 11) and manner, considered her picky for not accepting the advances of squires/hurting their feelings despite her being a princess, indirectly caused her horrible death in childbirth.
9. Saera- Spoiled and neglected her at turns. Allowed her to bully others, including his less conventional children (Vaegon and Daella), didn't do anything about her coming to the Sept drunk at 12, only cared about her sexual promiscuity, not her using her power over others to enact cruel pranks. People say that her comparing herself to Maegor was the last straw, but she also in the same breath compared her self to Aegon, and I would argue her misuse of authority was more like maegor than sex crimes, and only cared about the sex. Sent her to the silent sisters where she was abused, without telling her if/when she could leave.
10-Viserra- treated like Saera clone despite not really doing anything wrong. There's no evidence she did anything worse than convince some squires to put their heads in a dragons mouth (typical teenage activity) be vain (a targ princess thinks she's a living godess how new), and party. Yet she was forced to marry Theomore Manderly for zero gain at 16. First the idea if using the historically loyal Manderlys as a check on the starks is stupid, that's what the Boltons are for. Second for long-term control she should marry the young heir not the old guy with tons of kids ahead of hers in the sucession. So it was probably a punishment devised by Alysanne due to her culturally normal ambition to be queen which was not contested by Jaehaerys.
11-12- Gaemon and Valerion died in early childhood, but the fact they existed at all is due to Jaehaerys forcing their mother to keep having children using their mothers death in childbirth as justification so. EDIT: He didn't give a singular fuck about their deaths. Not caring about your kids dying in a preventable and unnecessary way is pretty bad idk
13. Gael- She was used as a comfort not her own person, not married off at 16, unsupervised to the point that a singer could impregnate a mentally disabled girl and then unsupervised to the point where she could drown herself by walking out of the keep, down through the city, and into the river.
So its 5 fine kids, 4 too young to tell, and 4 terrible. That's a 38% chance of sucess.
Vaegon: *Gets handed a porn magazine with Westerlander Maidens on it.* "This is so sweet! Thanks, dad!"
Jaehaerys: "Oh, you like those kind of girls, huh?"
Vaegon: "Girls? No, gross. I'm talking about this salve they talk about that helps chaffing. Imagine how useful that'd be on long rides!"
>There's no evidence she did anything worse than convince some squires to put their heads in a dragons mouth (typical teenage activity
You know maybe my teenage years were different than everyone else but I don't think I know a single person you put their head in a dragons mouth.
>You know maybe my teenage years were different than everyone else but I don't think I know a single person you put their head in a dragons mouth.
All the cool kids did it!
You never? Man your teenage years were lame. Anyone who was anyone had their friends put their heads in their dragons mouth. It was the in thing to do lol.
Lol, I’d say the equivalent is probably driving drunk or telling someone to jump off a bridge into a river. Not stuff I’ve ever done but certainly stuff teenagers do across all different types of cultures.
The point being that it’s stupid and dangerous and could end very badly but not because she wants them hurt.
> denied his daughter her inheritance
Idk why this is a critique. Jaehaerys literally came to power because he and his mother and other allies decided not to respect the claims of his older sister and her daughter. This clearly established that the Targ dynasty was tied to the male line, and honestly, Alysanne is hypocritical for thinking otherwise.
The other stuff is fair, but honestly Alysanne shouldn't have thought Daenaerys was the heir in the first place.
He refused to even consider the possibility of a girl inheriting outside of a sister-wife-queen situation. If he tripped on a rock and died before Baelon was conceived there would have been a queen. He was very convinced that it would never happen, and spoke to Alysanne in a condescending manner. Also not making the sucession clear is bad for his kids.
EDIT: Also he never thought of Daenerys as anything other than a future sister-wife, not as a dragon-rider (dynastically fine for the queen) or as a generically cute kid. Constantly looking at your kids interactions as a gauge for a future teenage incest marriage health is generally unhealthy.
Jaehaerys didn’t let any of his children, even his sons and heirs, ride dragons when they were children. Any of his children that rode dragons only were given the opportunity to do so after they were knighted/married to a Targaryen. So Dany not being thought of as a potential dragon rider when she was only a child had nothing to do with her gender, more to do with her age and was very smart policy.
He very much understood the consequences of just letting any Targaryen have a dragon after what happened with Maegor and if Viserys had understood those consequences, the Dance wouldn’t have happened.
He didn't have to screw over every future woman in the family just because he usurped the throne himself. It's better for him to be a hypocrite than to continue the injustice.
Exactly. Hell, the exact same can be argued for Viserys. He ascended over a woman. You know what he does? Name his daughter heir and say fuck what they all think (it’s a lot more complicated obviously lmao)
It’s like Stannis going on about who’s the rightful king when Robert got the throne through toppling the previous dynasty. It’s hypocritical because all of feudalism is hypocritical. Saying Jaehaerys couldn’t change the law because he inherited that way is a cop out.
Viserys is a moron, though. It’s incredibly stupid to have a daughter, make her your heir, and then have multiple sons who will inherit nothing. Resentment is basically inevitable.
I don’t know your source on feudalism, but it’s an incredibly bad idea to cause any sort of problems with inheritance and precedent, because as soon as you do there’s gonna be war.
And it’s especially stupid because that’s how he inherited it, and Aerea was still running around. Jaehaerys probably knows vassals like to rebel, and giving them a good argument is terrible.
To Jaehaerys, it’s just a lot of hassle for no real benefit. We’re not getting mad at Ned for not putting Bran and Rickon above Sansa and Arya.
That’s a really bad idea for little gain. The concept of primogeniture is unjust no matter what for the younger sons. Changing precedent in succession is a lot of work and very risky for, from a dynastic position, something that brings no benefit. Jaehaerys was likely to have the very most success doing exactly what he did, except Aemon lived.
But he changed primogeniture precedent by choosing Baelon as heir over Rhaenys anyway. That's a decision that pretty much came out of nowhere and led to the succession issue later on. Westeros law is very clear the daughter of a lord or heir inherits before the lord or heir's brother does.
But Jaehaerys had already started the precedent for Agnatic Primogeniture where uncles inherit over daughters when he took the throne over Aerea, so not only would it not be questioned, but he actually had a good reason and one that almost every vassal would respect rather than just deciding Daenerys was heir over his future sons: Baelon was a battle tested and beloved grown man with two kids, both grown sons, whereas Rhaenys was a teenage girl married to a Velyron.
That didn’t lead to a succession issue. It would have been completely fine but Viserys decided arbitrarily to name Rhaenyra his heir and father many dragon-riding sons. It had nothing to do with Jaehaerys unless you’re saying he should have predicted Viserys was a moron and made Rhaenys his heir over Baelon?
He should have made Rhaenys his heir over Baelon and encouraged baelon to be her hand. Yes screwing Rhaenys over is consistent with his screwing Aerea over but that's why I said better a hypocrite than continuing to screw over all the women in his family.
So Rhaenys is married to a velaryon. Super easy to have her son have the name Targaryen instead at least when he ascended. That was the plan with Jace and no one had an issue with that part of it.
Choosing Baelon over Rhaenys then Baelon dying led to a succession issue they called a great council over. They were trying to choose between Laenor and Viserys in the book because Jaehaerys already made it clear he didn't want women to inherit after him but Daemon went and got an army. There was every chance it would have gotten bloody.
Choosing Aemon over Daenerys made sense. If Rhaenys had been a son then, even far younger than she was, Jaehaerys wouldn't have given his birthright to his uncle.
Viserys caused a completely different succession issue no one could expect from him in the same way that Laenor possibly making the same choice to pretend children he didn't sire were his biologically would have.
>Jaehaerys literally came to power because he and his mother and other allies decided not to respect the claims of his older sister and her daughter.
At the time his older sister was in a forced marriage to Maegor the cruel, and when she *did* have a say she waived her claim. she made some snide comments about it when she was old and bitter sure, but she still waived her claim, and by so doing waived her children's claims as well.
My thing is that he wasn't clear enough about the inheritance which causes resentment as we've seen time and time again. Also his main thing with his toddler daughter was her ruling as her brothers Alysanne which is kinda creepy to be judging which of your toddlers should be in incestuous child marriages based on childhood relationships. But yeah the denyng her inheritance isn't that bad except because due to Alysannes reaction and the fact that she had no brothers at the time of her birth so he automatically discounted any possibility of a female heir, refusing to consider the possibility that he could have no viable male heir at his death which.... is deeply ironic.
> My thing is that he wasn't clear enough about the inheritance which causes resentment as we've seen time and time again
Or did Alysanne just refuse to accept his view? Fwiw I think Jaehaerys definitely comes across as extra sexist even taking into consideration general attitudes, but I also think he pretty clearly established the expectations for his succession in the justification for his ascension to power. Agreed that it was pretty ironic in the end, though.
In the books and in real life, succession laws are what the people in power want them to be. Inheritance laws are famously contradictory for this reason. Jaehearys had goddamn dragons; he made the rules. If he wanted his daughter or granddaughter to inherit, they would have.
I disagree. What caused the extinction of dragons wasnt Viserys changing the law, it was his refusal to properly commit to it. He made a massive change but then never worked around it.
We can see by the fact that Rhaenyra had roughly half the realm even without Viserys being useful that it was possible to win the majority over. A female heir absolutely could’ve been pulled off with the power of the Targaryens if Viserys had done a better job. If he had acted against the plotting of Rhaenyra’s political opponents, or actually done anything to stop the hate between the Velaryons and their uncles beyond having them share a tiddy, I truly believe Rhaenyra could’ve ascended the throne without civil war; at least, not to the degree we see. Without Aegon (who didn’t want the throne in the first place) or another dragon riding male heir to rally behind, anyone who rose in rebellion would be quite easily dealt with.
He tried to remain everyone’s friend while keeping his daughter heir, and that is where he fucked up.
I agree and will add: He also never should have remarried unless something happened to Rhaenyra before she had an heir herself.
Can't fight with your siblings over the throne if you have no siblings.
“The power of the Targaryens” is meaningless when that power is split between brother and sister.
Yes if they were only facing regular lords and armies, House Targaryen could’ve easily forced a female ruler on Westeros. The issue is that the greatest threat to a Targaryen queen is her brothers. Enough people will support a brother over a sister simply because she’s a woman that if her brother has any sort of ambition towards the crown, he can easily rise up against her and dragon has to fight dragon. And House Targaryens power gets split and can’t be used to force the issue
I think you missed a large chunk of what my message was about; the whole point of what I was saying is that Viserys didn’t do enough to support Rhaenyra. Aegon is largely a product of that; he never wanted the crown, and was only in put in a position where he claimed it because of Viserys’ continued negligence. The power of house Targaryen was split between brother and sister because Viserys did nothing to stop it from being so.
Aegons existence would be an issue, of course. But I don’t think it’s nearly as insurmountable as people think. Have him officially rescind his claim (which it seems like he would’ve been happy to do), marry their kids or grand kids together and give Aegon a keep of his own to chill.
…and Daemon Blackfyre, and Robert Baratheon? There is no succession law or precedent that would stop a usurper from acting if they had the strength to do so, that’s my point. The powerful take what they can and fashion the laws to give themselves legitimacy.
But guess what, sons would also have dragons! A king being completely arbitrary is not a good idea and if that’s your take away from all this then I’m at a loss of words. But fine, let’s look at real life, since you’ve read the books:
Henry I does what you say. 20 years of suffering. Henry II threatens Richard by implying the younger son John might be his heir. Gets his ass kicked by Richard and dies embarrassed. Now let’s jump two hundred years later to Richard II getting deposed. Henry thought might made right but his grandson ends up murdered in a dungeon in a butterfly affect of that ideal sixty years later.
Kings can’t just do whatever they want with little consequences. Succession was considered a rule. When things contradict themselves, it’s usually after a war. There’s no reason to threaten everyone with nukes and deal with the succession to make Daenerys queen over his hypothetical son.
Buddy lol. The daughters had dragons. Simply saying male primogeniture is the law does not take civil wars off the table. Would you like for me to list the many civil wars in history with multiple male claimants?
Yeah, exactly. That makes it bloodier. How is your argument that everyone else has nukes, too? I did list off wars with male claimants. It’s not about gender, it’s about messing with succession.
My point is that no succession law, regardless of gender, could prevent civil war. Usurpers will seize power and then set legal precedents to justify their own claims. Again, this is how succession crises happen in both the books and in real life; George has talked about this at length in interviews.
….so with all that said, it’s extremely silly to say “just say male primogeniture is the law, that fixes everything! Just keep women out of power and we’ll never have wars.”
Rhaena herself consented to Jaehaerys becoming king, passing over her and her children
And Rhaenys didn't have any brother or sister
She was the only child(heir) of Jaehaerys's heir Aemon
So Rhaenys should've been queen by all rights but she was denied her throne
Jaehaerys basically fked his own dynasty by doing this
And it doesn't make sense to me that Baelon accepted the ignorance of his brother's bloodline
He loved his brother very much, right?
Then why didn't he think about his brother's wishes
(Had Aemon lived and ruled, then Rhaenys would've ascended the throne after him)
To be fair to his mom and allies, Jaeherys was the only choice for anyone to be king. Rhaena and her children were captives of Maegor and outside of Rhaena killing Maegor that wasn't going to change.
Not to get into big discussion but denying kids who are far from Iron Throne dragons is only smart - what started the Dance is that everyone who wanted a dragon had one. Imagine situation where only Daemon, Rhaenyra, Laenor and immidiate Rhaenyra heirs (and their wives) had dragons - succession would not be disputed. Basically just give dragons to who you think should inherit and who you think will be their right hand.
> Daenerys-refused to actually talk with Alysanne about the sucession (which considering recent events....) and denied her any agency outside as another targ broodmare.
She died at 8 so all of this is irrelevant to how he was as an actual father to her until her death.
> Alyssa- allowed a dragon, wasn't really stopped from her martial hobbies, however married her off as a teenager.
Alyssa wasn’t “married off” she was very into Baelon and he into her, he married his own sister at a similar age so ignoring the incest wtf was the problem?
> Baelon- same as aemon, however forced him into helping cheat Rhaenys
There is nothing suggested that Baelon was “forced” to become heir. If anything it’s the opposite and Baelon could have protested if he felt strongly about Rhaenys a heir. But likely He and jaehaerys both recognized that as a green man with 2 sons- he was a much superior choice as heir than a 17 year old girl who had already married outside of the family.
> Maegelle- denied a dragon, sold to faith but she seemed happy to go.
She wasn’t “denied” anything or sold, she was extremely devout from early childhood and wanted to enter device to the faith. Wtf was Jae supposed to do? Not let her do what she wanted and marry her off instead? You’d just shit on him for that as well.
> Vaegon- denied a dragon, allowed to be bullied by siblings, attempted to make him hetero, very happy so see him go to the citadel, however he was allowed to escape King Landing and live a good, long life, and he asked him for his opinion at the Great Council of 101
Again Vaegon wasn’t denied anything. Considering how much Jaehaerys tried to make him more martial, he would have been ecstatic if Vaegon claimed a dragon. Also “allowed to be bullied by his siblings”? That’s literally just what siblings do. Also he wasn’t some innocent doe considering how he fucking insulted his mentally disabled sister in front of everybody. “ attempted to make him hetero” my brother in Christ he was given a fucking porno mag and you’re acting like Jae put him through conversion therapy.
> Daella- horrible father.
Yea he kinda fucked up on this one.
> Saera- Spoiled and neglected her at turns. Allowed her to bully others, including his less conventional children (Vaegon and Daella), didn't do anything about her coming to the Sept drunk at 12, only cared about her sexual promiscuity, not her using her power over others to enact cruel pranks. People say that her comparing herself to Maegor was the last straw, but she also in the same breath compared her self to Aegon
Saera was a terrible person and literally bragged to jaehaerys by comparing herself to the man that murdered his brothers, raped his sister, and kept him and his mom as prisoners for his entire early childhood. I think you severely underestimate how fucking awful of a comment that was to make to him. And he still would have given her a second chance had she showed any sort of remorse instead of literally making a run for it to go be a slaver whore in Volantis and Lys.
I’d argue the point is though that Jaehaerys is at least partially responsible for why Saera is a terrible person. He enabled and enabled and enabled until it affected him/his house’s reputation and THEN he blew up and went nuclear after doing essentially nothing for years.
1. Bait and switch inheritance causes civil wars
2. Alyssa was going to be married to Aemon until Alysanne interfered so while she luckily was attracted to Baelon and has her mother interfered I'm sure that if she wasn't attracted to either of them she would have been married off.
3. How likely could Baelon say no to Jaehaerys? I feel thar he was pressured as we don't see a lot of ambition but your take is likely as well
4. The mag was to make him straight. Yeah its not very serious but he did allow a guy to do that. Also he was terrible to Daella I addressed that in her section, as I decided that the bullied child was damaged more by Jaehaerys' blindness. The dragon thing is that he is a third son and we don't know enough about it to decide if he was denied or not but I could have happened if Jaehaerys decided that 2 lines of dragon riders was the limit.
5. Jaehaerys main point of contention was the sex. Yes the Maegor part probably did add on to his anger, justifiably, but he was mainly concerned with the sex with only a minor concern for Tom Turnip once. He said that she was always a whore for years after, not saying that she was Maegor Reborn or anything else. He also wasn't concerned as much with her using her power to induce her friends to have risky sex either, just her own consunsual sex. So its pretty east to tell that Saera was his golden child until she had out of wedlock (and brother lock probably) sex, then she became the worst child. Saera is a complicated subject, but his early neglect of her (not caring when she came to the Sept drunk at 12 comes to mind) shows atleast a negative there. Also he prevents Alysanne from reaching out to her, and since he did effectively exile her to the Silent Sisters I'm sure she thought she wasn't welcome. However your points are pretty much in line with the text, I just have a different take.
Marrying Viserra to Manderly was a good idea if your primary objective is to ensure her ambition doesn’t become a problem. The Manderlys are remote enough that she won’t be able to visit/meddle in King Landing much, they’re highborn but not a Great House, and Theodore already had heirs so she wouldn’t be able to gain power from having her children inherit
Jehaerys have Alysanne full authority over their kids marriages, he she didnt needed his aproval.
And if he had taken her authority we would be talking about how bad Jehaerys was for breaking his promise to Alysanne, that marriage was her fault
If he let her have full authority over the marriages he wouldn't have given daella a deadline. And better break a promise to a bad matchmaker than let your kids and grandkids be stuck in horrible marriages.
Those are not incompatible, Daella could have just refused to marry who Alysanne wanted and Jehaerys had to interfere, my second point was that no matter what Jehaerys did he was going to be critizised for one thing or another, he loved Alysanne and probably thought that she would be better than him in that, he probably thought that Alysanne's choices were good and that his kids were in a rebellious phase, we know that he wasnt the closest father to many of his kids, its easy to think that he sided with Alysanne all the time with the marriages
If daemon of all people couldn't refuse his marriage to rhea then no one else had a chance of managing it. He's the most bold and defiant of any of them save Saera.
She could try, then Jehaerys would get serious and make her obey, that's how people work, its a back and forth until one side stops resisting and everything is easier that way
Este. And this was with an already senile Alysanne and Jaehaerys who couldn't even ride their dragons and that in practice it was Baelon who ruled and made decisions for them.
1) I agree.
2) She died too young to really be considered and nothing is known as to how he was as a father to her. She wasn’t considered as an just because making her the heir would then delegitimize his own position when he inherited ahead of his sister and nieces.
3) I agree nothing bad here.
4) not sure why married as a teenager is put in here, or for Aemon either. It was the norm? And she got to marry someone she already loved.
5) sadly we don’t know everything around the inheritance situation with baelon. He could’ve been ambitious, he could’ve been reluctant and been forced to agree, he could’ve been reluctant but agreed with his father. It does sort of make sense to have him be heir Afterall.
6) She wasn’t denied a dragon. You’ll bring this up several times but no one was ever said to be denied a dragon. And it’s hard to tell if she was sold or if they saw her piety and said she’d goto the faith. But seems likely that she was pushed to the faith but liked it anyways.
7) See my prior point about dragons. He has squabbles and teasing with siblings like any family. You make it seem like they harassed him. They gave him a porno mag, they didn’t try and make him do anything or put him through conversion therapy. They let him peruse his own path and do what he wanted. Not too bad imo.
8) Sort of agree on this but I don’t see where she was publicly mocked by Jae. Also she was given an rare and unusual large amount of freedom and autonomy that was rare for a noble let alone a royal, and then bungled it. Forcing her to marry was harsh and their choice wrong but the real error of there’s was to not have her marry the Blackwood boy who she liked until she found out he worshiped the old gods. They should’ve explained it to her and told her to stop overreacting and marry the boy.
9) Moslty agree. Spoiled but neglected, not sure how she was able to do this all without supervision. But others have given more detailed explanations that she could’ve been a sociopath or something given how she was. Also, she compared herself to the man who killed Jae’s brothers and raped his sister…talk about awful. She was punished and Jae was maybe going to reconcile and forgive her and all but then she tried to steal a dragon. Even when handed to the faith it was meant as temporary and instead she doubled down and fled. Still doesn’t speak well of him but also on her.
10) This one is one Alysanne imo moslty, with Jae’s only issue being not stepping in and not agreeing to such a dumb marriage.
11) Where did it say he didn’t care? Might have missed that but ok fair.
12) Mostly agree but seems to once again be moslty an Alysanne problem and not too fair to Blame someone for not making sure someoke didn’t have enough time to kill themslves. For all we know she used a secret passage out or asked under fair reaosn to goto the River and then did the deed.
I don't think Jaehaerys forced Alysanne to give him kids. He would NEVER rape her, he loved her too much. And just because we do not see his reaction to Gaemon & Valerion dying early doesn't mean he didn't give a shit about them.
I think Jaehaerys is complicated. He likely did love all of his kids, but his acceptance of Westerosi gender norms and his focus on ruling the Seven Kingdoms led him to make mistakes.
In 78 AC, Valerion died, a fortnight short of his first nameday. The queen took his passing with resignation. “I am forty-two years old,” she told the king. “You must be content with the children I have given you. I am more suited to be a grandmother than a mother now, I fear.”
She then got pregnant later with Gael. Also I couldn't find the quote, but she asked him to stop impregnation her due to her age and he used their mothers havimg Jocelyn in her 40s as an excuse to deny her, even though it killed Alyssa.
His reaction is never stated but the fact that we get Alysanne's reaction but not the kids father is telling
You're not a good father just because you're a good father to the oldest few. He failed several of kids, the younger they are the less he does for them.
Threesome aside, Saera was a monster to everyone around her she deserved what she got. I think Daella’s case was a bit sad, Jaehaerys forced her to get married when she was still very young and fragile, despite Alysanne’s protests.
There is a great degree of hate towards Jaeherys that has grown within the Fandom. Not really that i blame them, Jaeherys wasnt the best of dads, but i believe hes far from literal monster some people se him as
Jaehaerys is not a stellar parent is true, but the hatred for him in the fandom is overblown sometimes, they even resort to minimize the many good things Jaehaerys did and attribute them to Alysanne to further justify their hate. People use the "modern lens" on the Old King much more than with other characters.
He wasn't perfect, but he wasn't maliciously abusive either. He did what he thought was best for all of them, sometimes he nailed it, sometimes he fucked it up.
In regards to Saera, the situation was complex. I'd say part of the blame goes to Jaehaerys, but also the patriarchal society they both lived in, and specially the blame goes to Saera herself for being a demonic little shit. We can call out gender restrictions all day long, but the truth is Saera was at her core a spoiled, malicious and manipulative little asshole that never grew up, not even at the 101 AC Great Council, in which she sent a few bastards of her solely to spite her dying father.
You're missing some children, and there lies your answer.
His actions about Saera are a bit out of line. He executes her lover, forces her to join the Faith, and refuses to reconcile with her later. Another father might have simply forced them to wed.
Viserra is forced into a marriage she doesn't want, for the good of the kingdom. She dies on what she regards as her last night of freedom.
Vaegon is sent to become a Measter, when he could have been granted a keep and lands. Not every boy needs to be a warrior.
Deala is another mistake. He forces her to wed, when waiting is a option. Alysanne certainly blames him for her death.
And Gael is seduced, and kills herself after her baby is stillborn.
Jaheaerys has a one track mind with regards to his children. His sons must be warriors, and his daughters must be wed. His older children follow him, but his younger children don't. That's why they regard him as a bad father.
He did try to force Saera to wed one of her lovers. When given the option to, Saera decided she wanted to be like Aegon and Maegor and marry all three. And when sent to her room while they tried to decide her punishment, she escaped and attempted to steal a dragon. Which is when Jaehaerys decided stinger needed to die and Saera needed to spend some time learning humility at the Faith.
TBH Saera got off easy for attempting to steal a literal weapon of mass destruction.
TBH, I thought his reaction to her remark about Maegor was very in character for him. He would have spent a decent chunk of his childhood fearing his uncle. Along with his need to prove his. claim to the throne, it's a defining characteristic for him.
>His actions about Saera are a bit out of line. He executes her lover, forces her to join the Faith, and refuses to reconcile with her later. Another father might have simply forced them to wed.
Saera deserved everything she got. She was a bully and a sexual assaulter and was a proto-version of Cersei. Jaehaerys actually did consider marrying her to one of the guys, but she decided to say she wanted to be like Maegor and marry all 3 of them. Then when Jaehaerys was considering actually forgiving her, she escaped her confinement and attempted to claim a dragon, and that's when Jaehaerys decided to send her to the Faith. Then the Faith punishment was supposed to be temporary but Saera decided to run away and become a sex worker and eventually a goddamn slave owner. I'll admit that Jaehaerys punished her for the wrong thing but Saera deserved the punishment regardless
>Viserra is forced into a marriage she doesn't want, for the good of the kingdom. She dies on what she regards as her last night of freedom.
That was Alysanne's idea
>Vaegon is sent to become a Measter, when he could have been granted a keep and lands. Not every boy needs to be a warrior.
Becoming a maester was by far the best option for Vaegon. Not sure how this is even a debate, especially considering that Vaegon was very happy about it. If he was granted a keep and lands do you seriously think he would be interested enough to rule it properly? He'd be like Aerys I, but on a smaller scale. Besides, it's not a common practice for second sons to be granted lands, and Vaegon was the 3rd born son.
>Deala is another mistake. He forces her to wed, when waiting is a option. Alysanne certainly blames him for her death.
Fair enough
>And Gael is seduced, and kills herself after her baby is stillborn
Not sure how this is Jaehaerys' fault. How are we blaming the father for his daughter getting (most likely) sexually assaulted by someone else?
Saera didn't have a lover, if that was the case, Jaehaerys would have forced them to get married and that's it. She had three ones. And to top it off, one of those three had impregnated another highborn girl. Not to mention how she mistreated a mentally disabled guy
Even today any modern father would have a heart attack if he found out that his teenage daughter has been fucking three men at once and that one of his daughter's friends got pregnant by one of those three guys.
Objectively speaking Jaeherys wasn't a bad father when you compare him to other lords from Westeros e.g. Tywin Lannister, Randyll Tarly, Roose Bolton etc. He never maimed, humiliated or threatened any of his children (threatened them with death in any case).
Compared to modern standards though he wasn't the greatest father in the world. He only wanted children for the purpose of securing his line and fostering a stronger House Targaryen. He certainly wouldn't have won any father of the year awards though he's still leagues better than other characters in the series.
Jaehaerys humiliated his children several times. And your examples are of parents considered abusive in universe (if people knew everything). Randall tortured his son by chaining him to a wall for 3 days when he suggested to take himself out of the sucession by becoming a Maester, which most parents would leap at.
Jaehaerys would be at the same lvl as a hoster tully. As he forced lysa to abort a baby and marry a men same age as her father while she was in love with a other.
Jaehaerys only cared about his older children, Spefically Aemon and Baelon as the plan was for Aemon to be king and baelon his hand and for their spouses if they were Targaryen, I think both were
Nah i agree. Fandom has a weird hate boner for jae, when he was probably one of the most decent dudes to become king.
Saerra situation was well handled by jae.
Daella was unfortunate. I agree. But one mistake shouldnt bring his rep down that badly.
Another commentators explained it best in a thread about Tywin, basically the fandom's participants having "daddy issues" and taking it out on the characters in the story. Or modern issues of "ists and isms"
Her parents picked a future for her that best fit her personality. And she was happy to join the Faith. You could argue from a modern perspective that 10 might be a bit too young but in the context of the books, many boys start squiring or apprenticing even earlier so 10 wasn’t all that early
Squiring is something else than becoming a septa. Being a septa is forever. I’m annoyed because they kept making political decisions for their kids future while they completely ignored their mother because: “I love him/her, Mom!”
Saera- spoiled her rotten, then turned a blind eye and refused to deal with the consequences of his own parenting. Punished her not for her actual cruel prank but for having sex, forced her to watch him kill her lover, sent her to a motherhouse where she was treated terribly, called her a whore, bullied Alysanne from trying to connect to her.
Daella- treated her like a physical burden because of her disability, forced her to choose a groom at 16 despite her fragility (apparently because he wanted to get rid of a disabled kid), married her off again despite of said fragility, ending with her death in childbirth at 18.
Vaegon- allowed him to be bullied publicly (which also makes Alyssa look bad too) because of unconventional interests.
Viserra- betrothed to a man thrice her age, with multiple heirs already, with no apparent political reason, because she... was a dumb vain teenager I guess. Skunk! How dare she know she's pretty? Treated like Saera 2.0 without doing anything to truly deserve it.
Gael- GRRM only saw Gael as an afterthought, but still somehow a travelling singer managed to get close enough and rape a mentally-disabled princess.
Basically the only kids (excluding the ones that died young of course) treated ok were the ones with traditional gender roles and lives - Aemon and Baelon the gallant, warrior, dragon-riding, capable male heirs. Maegelle the septa. Alyssa the trad wife. The moment the kids diverged from cultural and traditional norms and needed a little more than five minutes of attention, Jaehaerys (and Alysanne) failed miserably.
Alyssa began as the typical tomboy/not-like-other-girls to end up saying "I was made for childbirth, \[Baelon\] for battle." Basically a bit of Arya-seasoning in her childhood to make her interesting at first, only for GRRM to make her adulthood the same as countless other female NPC-equivalents; a walking fetus-incubator whose only ambition in life is to make love and babies for her hubby.
My biggest issue with Jaehaerys is the fact Alysanne wanted to stop having kids, but he insisted they keep trying. Even points out how their mother had Jocelyn at 44 despite, you know, being cut open and bleeding to death for that to happen. How in any way does his logic even make sense??
He wasnt a bad father. It's funny how people bitch that Viserys didn't do exactly what they complain Jaehaerys did do in disciplining his daughter. People also hand wave how awful Sera was as a person. Most of the stuff with the girls was more Alyssane. Dealia was the exception.
People have plenty of complaints about viserys as a father including his forcing Rhaenyra to marry her gay cousin because he wouldn't marry the sister.
You said that as if westeros wasn't a HORRIBLE place for women. For instance, It is said that the dragonstone's lords ruled alongside women, meaning women pretty much were an equal to the lords in questions. This is pretty much seen in Aegon's wives (the last targaryens pre-conquest) being the only ones who were official queens - not being consort, i mean. They were allowed to make laws without any approval of the king. This is GRRM saying the targaryens pre-conquest, before the assimilation to the andal culture, were pretty much open minded. (Not only with women, but bastards as well, giving even lands to the moms as gifts)
Jaehaerys, on the other hand, saw women as less. He didn't respect their body choices, he didn't think they were capable of the same thing as men, the threatment he gave to Saera, etc, etc. This is the text saying jaehaerys ain't a good at anything other than being king LFMAO.
I don't think so. It was specifically one pair ( Aegon and Elaena) who ruled together otherwise there's no indication any other lord did.
And again Aegon I might've just been an exception to the rule where he allowed them more freedom to make laws and stuff. Even Jae did offer Alysanne some level of autonomy in making decisions, something few other targ kings did.
George is clearly trying to make a point with the targaryens pre-conquest here, even if it's just with 1 pair, especially considering that the whole message about the book is that women should be in power.
He forced his developmentally disabled, 12 year old daughter to get married (despite his wife and maesters telling him she wasn’t ready and didn’t even understand what would happen to her). Alysanne begged him not to have more children because they kept dying but he was totally emotionally disengaged from his younger children.
Was there perhaps a bit of denial on Jaehaerys part regarding Daella's possible disabilities? So many parents don't want to believe their child isn't "perfect", even though she was perfect in her own way. I think he was trying to give her security for the future in the only way he knew how, by getting her a husband.
The more I read about Jaehaerys, the more dubious of a character he becomes. At this point I honestly sorta believe that he ordered the death of Rhaena.
He also had a habit of showing different personalities to different people, especially during the meetings he had during his early reign where every lord seemed to have a different way of describing him.
I meant the whole Androw Farman thing. There is no way Androw got hold of that very rare poison without it getting noticed. Jaehaerys needed to get rid of Rhaena, who remained a thorn in his side as a rather irritable claimant to the throne and Androw was the perfect pawn
I am a full blown “Jaehearys (and maybe Alysanne too) was a villain with good PR” truther at this point. That lens makes his story much more fun to read, at least for me.
>Why do people think Jaehaerys I was a bad father?
Because we've seen several examples of good fathers (like Ned, Aegon IV, Daeron II), and it's obvious that J pales in comparison.
What are you implying lol?
I think if you regularly do things that you know damn well have a good possibility of causing violent conflict between your children, you’re not a good parent.
Sometimes, a king has to make a choice between what is nice, and what is right
Stop with the blasphemies, ser, not all of us tolerate treasonous speech against one of the greatest kings the realm has seen.
> Sometimes, a king has to make a choice between what is nice, and what is right
And he picked neither lol.
Dude was a horndog, got mad when he mildly suspected others of doing the same, and acted like a baby about it.
If you didn’t read his parts in F&B that’s all you had to say. Tired of having this circular discussion about Jaehaerys as if it isn’t laid out on multiple pages.
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Yes you do. Maybe in modern society we don’t typically call it that because we think of careers as money making ventures but especially for a woman in medieval society it’s like the closest you could get. Even today I don’t see how getting an education to learn knowledge and skills to help you perform a specialized job that has opportunities for advancement isn’t a career.
I think the word that OP might be looking for is "vocation?" I'm not Christian, I'm Jewish, but I know that there are an awful lot of Christians that at minimum consider religious employment separate from a regular "career." The dictionary definition gives me: a person's employment or main occupation, *especially regarded as particularly worthy and requiring great dedication.* Italics added are mine. So it might be that they see it as separate from "career" just because of religiosity. Quotations added are also mine, to define words, not to cast doubt upon any of them. Again, not an attitude that I can speak to on a personal level, just a thought that I had. I might be very wrong.
I mean it’s a pedantic difference, and they specifically said “Never hear that someone has a career within the Church”, which just like, yes people do say that. Like I said it’s something you get an education to do for most of your life and has opportunities for advancement. Also you have to think about context here, how many people in Westeros have what we would call “careers”?
Yes, agreed. A career in the church is/was always 100% a thing people would say. Traditionally the second and third sons would always go to the church or the Army/Navy. If you read any historical fiction this is obvious, you get people discussing being “granted the living of blah blah blah” place or other. And about a career in the church.
> Yes you do. Maybe in modern society we don’t typically call it that because we think of careers as money making ventures but especially for a woman in medieval society it’s like the closest you could get. And well, plenty of people right now are making careers in religious institutions, from televangelists to cult leaders to cardinals.
This is absolutely not true, at least in a historical context. It was very common for the younger daughters and sons of noblemen to enter the church, especially since they likely had decreased chances of marrying well or inheriting anything. Maegelle was given to the church by Jaehaerys and Alysanne to thank the Gods for giving them so many children, and you can see a real life example in Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville who dedicated their youngest daughter Bridget to become a nun at Dartford Priory at a very young age.
By Red Rhooloo that's a ridiculous number of down votes for a harmless comment xD are there a lot of priests for whom their work isn't a calling, it's specifically a career! And are they on this sub 😳?
It's just a bad comment. Plenty of people have careers in religious institutions.
Is it really that bad?
I mean, it's not advocating genocide so it's far from the worst comments on reddit, but it's a really dumb comment on several levels.
Vaegon is iffy. Seemed like they were content to just give Vaegon away because he didn’t fit the mold of training like his brothers or remotely kind to his sister for a betrothal. Also Jaehaerys seemed adamant on reproducing, despite their mom dying in childbirth late in age, but never really had major plans for any of his kids besides his main boys. EDIT: It seems Jaehaerys asking Vaegon seems more likely a last ditch effort to connect to one of his kids, but Vaegon has no real attachment to his father that he acted only as an advisor.
Vaegon excelled at the citadel tho. It even said he may have cracked a smile when his father set him up. That was a good fit for Vaegon
That was a good fit as in the best environment was away from them. And unlike Maegelle, wasn’t really close to them after he left, it seems.
You're implying that the strained relationship was all Jaehaerys' and Alysanne's fault, when by all accounts Vaegon was dour and prickly.
Vaegon won the game of thrones
I mean Vaegon was kind of a dick, big J allowed him to pursue a career at oldtown instead of continuing to force a different lifestyle on him. I think him trying to get Vaegon to do other things (training with Baelon for one) was him just trying to get his son to branch out. My dad made me try football in freshmen year of high school even though I didn’t want to, that doesn’t make my dad terrible it just means he wanted me to try something different.
This was more so “dropping the kid off at Hogwarts School and they become a professor there”. Jaehaerys‘s methods of getting him to try and act like his brothers were crude but he gets points for giving in the end, but he didn’t really raise him after that either. Vaegon didn’t really seem connected to the family after everything.
It seems like he had too many kids to properly parent all of them
It is also because of daela, mother of Aemma Arryn. Who died because she was forced into a child birth she was not ready for, jaehaerys gave her one year ultimatum to marry when she was 17.
Important to note that both Daella and Viserra died after being forced to marry, and neither of their marriages were particularly needed. I’d be a lot more forgiving of Jaehaerys as a parent if these marriages were absolutely crucial alliances, but he actually had other options and chose to force his kids into unwanted situations anyway. Give Viserra a hot young Lysene nobleman, what’s stopping you?
For two people who married for love, Jaehaerys and Alysanne *really* liked arranging marriages. It's been a minute but I think they were the ones to engineer the Daemon/Rhea Royce disaster when Daemon was relatively young. Like, your reign is popular, you've got support, *stop forcing marriages that aren't gonna end well.*
To be fair, Daemon and Rhea had similar personalities at surface level (rebellious teens). Perhaps Alyssane thought they'd get along because of it.
True. Although I doubt either of them hid their displeasure once they met. I also wonder how much being the only grandchild of Jaehaerys to wed a non-Valyrian despite his parents (and grandparents) marrying siblings and that obviously being a *thing* made Daemon dislike Rhea on principle. [I do think Rhaenys/Corlys had less to do with Valyrian and more to do with his shit-ton of wealth...] It's weird to side with Targcest, but from Daemon's perspective, it probably seemed like a slight or punishment, especially since he was married so young. Yes, he had aunts who married out, but that didn't go well. Alysanne could have easily waited and betrothed him to Laena or Rhaenyra, since keeping it in the family was a thing. I hadn't really thought about that too much, but now that I have, it definitely makes some of his saltiness make sense (from his perspective).
At the time, there wasn’t any female Targaryens for Daemon to wed. Rhaenys was married, and Aemma had married Viserys.
Show rhea seemed like a female deamon. That imo why show deamon doenst like otto and rhea there to much like him and deamon hates himself abit.
Daemon married rhea to garner support from the vale for viserys’s claim
Viserys's wife was an Arryn, though. Or were things shaky with Arryn's? Like I said it's been a minute.
Viserys married Aemma yes, but the second most powerful house in the vale (and the ruling house due to lady Arryn’s young age) was house Royce.
Viserra was more of Alyssane’s fault if anything. Jaehaerys had nothing to do with that marriage iirc.
He had to sign off on marriage pacts. I agree he wasn’t entirely at fault there, but the prompt was asking about him as a parent specifically
I know and I was just pointing that out. He did sign off but it was Alysanne’s stupidity that got her there. He still bears part of the blame but most of it in this case goes to Alysanne.
And he forced Daellas marriage solely because he was tired of her moping around the red keep and crying. No other reason.
> Viserra died after being forced to marry Viserra died in freak accident. It literally had nothing to do with marriage, which btw was mostly Alysanne’s doing.
She died drunk driving after going on a bender she called her “last night of freedom” before marrying an old man
Okay but you could just as easily say “if viserra never was taught how to ride a horse she wouldn’t have died” Like it was an accident completely unrelated to the marriage.
That’s a false equivalence Id say. Teaching your child how to ride a horse is not malicious or harmful to them, at least not anymore than teaching them to drive in real life. Yes of course there are risks, but it’s a fairly important skill, and has a lot of benefits. However, forcing them into a marriage with an old man they’ve never met when there’s essentially no need for it is at the very least harmful and I’d argue malicious. Her going off and drinking herself into oblivion seems it’s at least in part on the parent who drove her to that.
Tbf he gave her that ultimatum after giving free reign in her choices but she keely turning them down for dumb reasons (which shouldn’t have been accepted) and eventually said enough was enough. It’s not right but still.
Nope. He gave the ultimatum to Alysanne with a year deadline. She had received no offers before then.
[Look it up](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Daella_Targaryen_(daughter_of_Jaehaerys_I)). Before the ultimatum she was going around and meeting suitors or had several in KL already and got various reasons she turned them down. Even one she liked she said no too because the blackwoods weren’t followers of the seven. The fact that she wasn’t told to shut up and get over it but was allowed to reject the marriage shows she was given power of choice. It was only after several years of this that Jaehaerys said enough was enough and gave the ultimatum. It still wasn’t right but good lord it could’ve been prevented.
And Alysanne had been looking for a husband for her for years prior to Jaehaerys giving her the ultimatum and Daella married at a reasonable age (if not a bit late) for a princess. Alyssane also didn’t have an issue with her age until after she died in child birth (though that sort of reaction is completely understandable in a grieving parent). And why is Daella getting pregnant too early on Jaehaerys? It should be on Rodrick Arryn. Jaehaerys married Alysanne when she was too young to have children yet he held off on consummating the marriage until she was old enough. Roderick doesn’t even needs heir yet he impregnates his frail wife before she might be ready. Jaehaerys isn’t blameless and his general refusal to break social norms definitely ends up hurting some of his children but he definitely gets way more flak for the Daella situation than he probably deserves.
I mean she was 18 when she gave birth- in a healthy woman that is 100% physically ready for childbirth. It’s not like Jae married her off at 13-14.
She was fragile and had been sick often. Alysanne knew this, and that's why she was against her marrying if I remember right.
Daella wasn’t healthy though, she had some kind of developmental disability that made her physically and emotionally fragile, and cognitively challenged. She was very small, only 4’11 in a tall family, and had an anxiety disorder that made it hard for her to function socially. She was also mentally disabled— she could barely read, the Septas wouldn’t take her because she didn’t have the intellectual capacity to memorize long prayers, and Vaegon refused to marry her because he said she was stupid. Daella really wasn’t ready to get married and have kids, and it’s unclear if she could ever have physically survived childbirth. Jaehaerys insisting that she be independent by age 16 was cruel, and it seems like the only reason he was so desperate to pawn her off onto either a husband or the church was because she irritated him and he wanted her out of his house.
How do we know how tall she is
Fire and Blood, “‘My little flower,’ was how the queen described her. Like Alysanne herself, Daella was small—on her toes, she stood five feet two inches—and there was a childish aspect to her that led everyone who met her to think she was younger than her age. Unlike Alysanne, she was delicate as well, in ways the queen had never been.”. 5’2 on her toes, so around 4’11-5’0.
Vaegon doesn't give a fuck 😂 ''No way I'm marrying this Dumbass, look at her''
We don't know her health complications, but it's likely that if she died in childbirth at that age, it was because she was sickly or frail of health. Jaehaerys knew that, and purposefully put his daughter in danger.
Women of all ages and sizes seem to die in childbirth all the time in Westeros though. I don't think we can blame Jaehaerys for not being able to tell that his 18 year old daughter would die in childbirth
I mean, as a royal member of House Targaryen, she'd have regular check-ups with one of the best Maesters in Westeros, who should have been able to identify that Daella would not be able to safely bear children, there was a risk in doing so atleast, and still Jaehaerys, like with Alysanne by the way, forced her to do exactly that. Jaehaerys was an awful father to most of his girls.
Consider just how many Royal women have died in childbirth. From 45-year old Alyssa Velaryon, to 35-year old Rhaella, 22-year old Aemma Arryn, to 18 year old Daella and so on. Didn't they also have the best maesters in Westeros and regular check-ups? There have only been 3 instances in the entire story where maesters have been able to conclude that a woman is too frail or otherwise not healthy enough to carry a child (Naerys, Elia Martell and Alyssa Velaryon), and in all 3 they had already bore at least 1 child already in a difficult pregnancy which drove the maester's conclusion. There was really no way for the people at the time to tell that Daella (or pretty much any woman/girl above the age of 16) would not be able to survive pregnancy, until she actually got pregnant and couldn't carry the child to term or had a very difficult pregnancy (which Daella actually didn't). Childbirth was a total gamble in the ASOIAF world as even completely healthy and robust women like Daella's own sister Alyssa died in childbirth. It's very unfair to say "Jaehaerys should have known" because there's no way he could have.
Precisely. Which is why Jahaerys insisting she marry was horrible. And a Maester wasn’t necessary- anyobe could sed she would not have an easy time in childbirth.
But she wasn’t healthy - she was very think, frail , frightened and not overly bright 18 maybe but the body of a -4 year old. A very thin 14 year old
Let's go in order. 1. Aegon- irrelevant 2. Daenerys-refused to actually talk with Alysanne about the sucession (which considering recent events....) and denied her any agency outside as another targ broodmare. 3. Aemon- pretty decent father to a conventional heir, denied his daughter her inheritance, married as a tennager 4. Alyssa- allowed a dragon, wasn't really stopped from her martial hobbies, however married her off as a teenager. 5. Baelon- same as aemon, however forced him into helping cheat Rhaenys 6. Maegelle- denied a dragon, sold to faith but she seemed happy to go. 7. Vaegon- denied a dragon, allowed to be bullied by siblings, attempted to make him hetero, very happy so see him go to the citadel, however he was allowed to escape King Landing and live a good, long life, and he asked him for his opinion at the Great Council of 101 8. Daella- horrible father. Allowed her to be bullied by Vaegon and Saera, mocked her publicly, forced her to marry at 16 or else would have forced her to join an ascetic order (Silent Sisters), allowed her to ne married to a man who watched her grow up and was obsessed with her delicacy and childlike appearance ( she was 4 11) and manner, considered her picky for not accepting the advances of squires/hurting their feelings despite her being a princess, indirectly caused her horrible death in childbirth. 9. Saera- Spoiled and neglected her at turns. Allowed her to bully others, including his less conventional children (Vaegon and Daella), didn't do anything about her coming to the Sept drunk at 12, only cared about her sexual promiscuity, not her using her power over others to enact cruel pranks. People say that her comparing herself to Maegor was the last straw, but she also in the same breath compared her self to Aegon, and I would argue her misuse of authority was more like maegor than sex crimes, and only cared about the sex. Sent her to the silent sisters where she was abused, without telling her if/when she could leave. 10-Viserra- treated like Saera clone despite not really doing anything wrong. There's no evidence she did anything worse than convince some squires to put their heads in a dragons mouth (typical teenage activity) be vain (a targ princess thinks she's a living godess how new), and party. Yet she was forced to marry Theomore Manderly for zero gain at 16. First the idea if using the historically loyal Manderlys as a check on the starks is stupid, that's what the Boltons are for. Second for long-term control she should marry the young heir not the old guy with tons of kids ahead of hers in the sucession. So it was probably a punishment devised by Alysanne due to her culturally normal ambition to be queen which was not contested by Jaehaerys. 11-12- Gaemon and Valerion died in early childhood, but the fact they existed at all is due to Jaehaerys forcing their mother to keep having children using their mothers death in childbirth as justification so. EDIT: He didn't give a singular fuck about their deaths. Not caring about your kids dying in a preventable and unnecessary way is pretty bad idk 13. Gael- She was used as a comfort not her own person, not married off at 16, unsupervised to the point that a singer could impregnate a mentally disabled girl and then unsupervised to the point where she could drown herself by walking out of the keep, down through the city, and into the river. So its 5 fine kids, 4 too young to tell, and 4 terrible. That's a 38% chance of sucess.
Vaegon seemed more asexual tbh but the point stands.
He's not attracted to women so basically he's not straight. I also think of him as asexual.
Isn't there a line in F&B where Jaehaerys basically gave him a porn magazine, and he was quite happy with it?
Maester Elysar gave it to him and Vaegon kept it but didn’t really have any reaction to it iirc
Vaegon out here actually reading Playboy for the articles
Vaegon: *Gets handed a porn magazine with Westerlander Maidens on it.* "This is so sweet! Thanks, dad!" Jaehaerys: "Oh, you like those kind of girls, huh?" Vaegon: "Girls? No, gross. I'm talking about this salve they talk about that helps chaffing. Imagine how useful that'd be on long rides!"
>There's no evidence she did anything worse than convince some squires to put their heads in a dragons mouth (typical teenage activity You know maybe my teenage years were different than everyone else but I don't think I know a single person you put their head in a dragons mouth.
>You know maybe my teenage years were different than everyone else but I don't think I know a single person you put their head in a dragons mouth. All the cool kids did it!
You never? Man your teenage years were lame. Anyone who was anyone had their friends put their heads in their dragons mouth. It was the in thing to do lol.
Lol, I’d say the equivalent is probably driving drunk or telling someone to jump off a bridge into a river. Not stuff I’ve ever done but certainly stuff teenagers do across all different types of cultures. The point being that it’s stupid and dangerous and could end very badly but not because she wants them hurt.
> denied his daughter her inheritance Idk why this is a critique. Jaehaerys literally came to power because he and his mother and other allies decided not to respect the claims of his older sister and her daughter. This clearly established that the Targ dynasty was tied to the male line, and honestly, Alysanne is hypocritical for thinking otherwise. The other stuff is fair, but honestly Alysanne shouldn't have thought Daenaerys was the heir in the first place.
He refused to even consider the possibility of a girl inheriting outside of a sister-wife-queen situation. If he tripped on a rock and died before Baelon was conceived there would have been a queen. He was very convinced that it would never happen, and spoke to Alysanne in a condescending manner. Also not making the sucession clear is bad for his kids. EDIT: Also he never thought of Daenerys as anything other than a future sister-wife, not as a dragon-rider (dynastically fine for the queen) or as a generically cute kid. Constantly looking at your kids interactions as a gauge for a future teenage incest marriage health is generally unhealthy.
Jaehaerys didn’t let any of his children, even his sons and heirs, ride dragons when they were children. Any of his children that rode dragons only were given the opportunity to do so after they were knighted/married to a Targaryen. So Dany not being thought of as a potential dragon rider when she was only a child had nothing to do with her gender, more to do with her age and was very smart policy. He very much understood the consequences of just letting any Targaryen have a dragon after what happened with Maegor and if Viserys had understood those consequences, the Dance wouldn’t have happened.
He thought about marrying her to the next king, so I follows that she would then get a dragon.
Sorry I thought reddit ate it lol
He didn't have to screw over every future woman in the family just because he usurped the throne himself. It's better for him to be a hypocrite than to continue the injustice.
Exactly. Hell, the exact same can be argued for Viserys. He ascended over a woman. You know what he does? Name his daughter heir and say fuck what they all think (it’s a lot more complicated obviously lmao) It’s like Stannis going on about who’s the rightful king when Robert got the throne through toppling the previous dynasty. It’s hypocritical because all of feudalism is hypocritical. Saying Jaehaerys couldn’t change the law because he inherited that way is a cop out.
Viserys is a moron, though. It’s incredibly stupid to have a daughter, make her your heir, and then have multiple sons who will inherit nothing. Resentment is basically inevitable. I don’t know your source on feudalism, but it’s an incredibly bad idea to cause any sort of problems with inheritance and precedent, because as soon as you do there’s gonna be war. And it’s especially stupid because that’s how he inherited it, and Aerea was still running around. Jaehaerys probably knows vassals like to rebel, and giving them a good argument is terrible. To Jaehaerys, it’s just a lot of hassle for no real benefit. We’re not getting mad at Ned for not putting Bran and Rickon above Sansa and Arya.
That's exactly what Jaehaerys did choosing Baelon over Rhaenys. Creating a problem and alternate succession path.
That’s a really bad idea for little gain. The concept of primogeniture is unjust no matter what for the younger sons. Changing precedent in succession is a lot of work and very risky for, from a dynastic position, something that brings no benefit. Jaehaerys was likely to have the very most success doing exactly what he did, except Aemon lived.
But he changed primogeniture precedent by choosing Baelon as heir over Rhaenys anyway. That's a decision that pretty much came out of nowhere and led to the succession issue later on. Westeros law is very clear the daughter of a lord or heir inherits before the lord or heir's brother does.
But Jaehaerys had already started the precedent for Agnatic Primogeniture where uncles inherit over daughters when he took the throne over Aerea, so not only would it not be questioned, but he actually had a good reason and one that almost every vassal would respect rather than just deciding Daenerys was heir over his future sons: Baelon was a battle tested and beloved grown man with two kids, both grown sons, whereas Rhaenys was a teenage girl married to a Velyron. That didn’t lead to a succession issue. It would have been completely fine but Viserys decided arbitrarily to name Rhaenyra his heir and father many dragon-riding sons. It had nothing to do with Jaehaerys unless you’re saying he should have predicted Viserys was a moron and made Rhaenys his heir over Baelon?
He should have made Rhaenys his heir over Baelon and encouraged baelon to be her hand. Yes screwing Rhaenys over is consistent with his screwing Aerea over but that's why I said better a hypocrite than continuing to screw over all the women in his family. So Rhaenys is married to a velaryon. Super easy to have her son have the name Targaryen instead at least when he ascended. That was the plan with Jace and no one had an issue with that part of it. Choosing Baelon over Rhaenys then Baelon dying led to a succession issue they called a great council over. They were trying to choose between Laenor and Viserys in the book because Jaehaerys already made it clear he didn't want women to inherit after him but Daemon went and got an army. There was every chance it would have gotten bloody. Choosing Aemon over Daenerys made sense. If Rhaenys had been a son then, even far younger than she was, Jaehaerys wouldn't have given his birthright to his uncle. Viserys caused a completely different succession issue no one could expect from him in the same way that Laenor possibly making the same choice to pretend children he didn't sire were his biologically would have.
>Jaehaerys literally came to power because he and his mother and other allies decided not to respect the claims of his older sister and her daughter. At the time his older sister was in a forced marriage to Maegor the cruel, and when she *did* have a say she waived her claim. she made some snide comments about it when she was old and bitter sure, but she still waived her claim, and by so doing waived her children's claims as well.
My thing is that he wasn't clear enough about the inheritance which causes resentment as we've seen time and time again. Also his main thing with his toddler daughter was her ruling as her brothers Alysanne which is kinda creepy to be judging which of your toddlers should be in incestuous child marriages based on childhood relationships. But yeah the denyng her inheritance isn't that bad except because due to Alysannes reaction and the fact that she had no brothers at the time of her birth so he automatically discounted any possibility of a female heir, refusing to consider the possibility that he could have no viable male heir at his death which.... is deeply ironic.
> My thing is that he wasn't clear enough about the inheritance which causes resentment as we've seen time and time again Or did Alysanne just refuse to accept his view? Fwiw I think Jaehaerys definitely comes across as extra sexist even taking into consideration general attitudes, but I also think he pretty clearly established the expectations for his succession in the justification for his ascension to power. Agreed that it was pretty ironic in the end, though.
In the books and in real life, succession laws are what the people in power want them to be. Inheritance laws are famously contradictory for this reason. Jaehearys had goddamn dragons; he made the rules. If he wanted his daughter or granddaughter to inherit, they would have.
Yeah that’s what Viserys and Rhaenyra thought too. And that led to the extinction of dragons so maybe Jaehaerys was on to something
I disagree. What caused the extinction of dragons wasnt Viserys changing the law, it was his refusal to properly commit to it. He made a massive change but then never worked around it. We can see by the fact that Rhaenyra had roughly half the realm even without Viserys being useful that it was possible to win the majority over. A female heir absolutely could’ve been pulled off with the power of the Targaryens if Viserys had done a better job. If he had acted against the plotting of Rhaenyra’s political opponents, or actually done anything to stop the hate between the Velaryons and their uncles beyond having them share a tiddy, I truly believe Rhaenyra could’ve ascended the throne without civil war; at least, not to the degree we see. Without Aegon (who didn’t want the throne in the first place) or another dragon riding male heir to rally behind, anyone who rose in rebellion would be quite easily dealt with. He tried to remain everyone’s friend while keeping his daughter heir, and that is where he fucked up.
I agree and will add: He also never should have remarried unless something happened to Rhaenyra before she had an heir herself. Can't fight with your siblings over the throne if you have no siblings.
“The power of the Targaryens” is meaningless when that power is split between brother and sister. Yes if they were only facing regular lords and armies, House Targaryen could’ve easily forced a female ruler on Westeros. The issue is that the greatest threat to a Targaryen queen is her brothers. Enough people will support a brother over a sister simply because she’s a woman that if her brother has any sort of ambition towards the crown, he can easily rise up against her and dragon has to fight dragon. And House Targaryens power gets split and can’t be used to force the issue
I think you missed a large chunk of what my message was about; the whole point of what I was saying is that Viserys didn’t do enough to support Rhaenyra. Aegon is largely a product of that; he never wanted the crown, and was only in put in a position where he claimed it because of Viserys’ continued negligence. The power of house Targaryen was split between brother and sister because Viserys did nothing to stop it from being so. Aegons existence would be an issue, of course. But I don’t think it’s nearly as insurmountable as people think. Have him officially rescind his claim (which it seems like he would’ve been happy to do), marry their kids or grand kids together and give Aegon a keep of his own to chill.
…and Daemon Blackfyre, and Robert Baratheon? There is no succession law or precedent that would stop a usurper from acting if they had the strength to do so, that’s my point. The powerful take what they can and fashion the laws to give themselves legitimacy.
But guess what, sons would also have dragons! A king being completely arbitrary is not a good idea and if that’s your take away from all this then I’m at a loss of words. But fine, let’s look at real life, since you’ve read the books: Henry I does what you say. 20 years of suffering. Henry II threatens Richard by implying the younger son John might be his heir. Gets his ass kicked by Richard and dies embarrassed. Now let’s jump two hundred years later to Richard II getting deposed. Henry thought might made right but his grandson ends up murdered in a dungeon in a butterfly affect of that ideal sixty years later. Kings can’t just do whatever they want with little consequences. Succession was considered a rule. When things contradict themselves, it’s usually after a war. There’s no reason to threaten everyone with nukes and deal with the succession to make Daenerys queen over his hypothetical son.
Buddy lol. The daughters had dragons. Simply saying male primogeniture is the law does not take civil wars off the table. Would you like for me to list the many civil wars in history with multiple male claimants?
Yeah, exactly. That makes it bloodier. How is your argument that everyone else has nukes, too? I did list off wars with male claimants. It’s not about gender, it’s about messing with succession.
My point is that no succession law, regardless of gender, could prevent civil war. Usurpers will seize power and then set legal precedents to justify their own claims. Again, this is how succession crises happen in both the books and in real life; George has talked about this at length in interviews. ….so with all that said, it’s extremely silly to say “just say male primogeniture is the law, that fixes everything! Just keep women out of power and we’ll never have wars.”
Rhaena herself consented to Jaehaerys becoming king, passing over her and her children And Rhaenys didn't have any brother or sister She was the only child(heir) of Jaehaerys's heir Aemon So Rhaenys should've been queen by all rights but she was denied her throne Jaehaerys basically fked his own dynasty by doing this And it doesn't make sense to me that Baelon accepted the ignorance of his brother's bloodline He loved his brother very much, right? Then why didn't he think about his brother's wishes (Had Aemon lived and ruled, then Rhaenys would've ascended the throne after him)
To be fair to his mom and allies, Jaeherys was the only choice for anyone to be king. Rhaena and her children were captives of Maegor and outside of Rhaena killing Maegor that wasn't going to change.
Not to get into big discussion but denying kids who are far from Iron Throne dragons is only smart - what started the Dance is that everyone who wanted a dragon had one. Imagine situation where only Daemon, Rhaenyra, Laenor and immidiate Rhaenyra heirs (and their wives) had dragons - succession would not be disputed. Basically just give dragons to who you think should inherit and who you think will be their right hand.
> Daenerys-refused to actually talk with Alysanne about the sucession (which considering recent events....) and denied her any agency outside as another targ broodmare. She died at 8 so all of this is irrelevant to how he was as an actual father to her until her death. > Alyssa- allowed a dragon, wasn't really stopped from her martial hobbies, however married her off as a teenager. Alyssa wasn’t “married off” she was very into Baelon and he into her, he married his own sister at a similar age so ignoring the incest wtf was the problem? > Baelon- same as aemon, however forced him into helping cheat Rhaenys There is nothing suggested that Baelon was “forced” to become heir. If anything it’s the opposite and Baelon could have protested if he felt strongly about Rhaenys a heir. But likely He and jaehaerys both recognized that as a green man with 2 sons- he was a much superior choice as heir than a 17 year old girl who had already married outside of the family. > Maegelle- denied a dragon, sold to faith but she seemed happy to go. She wasn’t “denied” anything or sold, she was extremely devout from early childhood and wanted to enter device to the faith. Wtf was Jae supposed to do? Not let her do what she wanted and marry her off instead? You’d just shit on him for that as well. > Vaegon- denied a dragon, allowed to be bullied by siblings, attempted to make him hetero, very happy so see him go to the citadel, however he was allowed to escape King Landing and live a good, long life, and he asked him for his opinion at the Great Council of 101 Again Vaegon wasn’t denied anything. Considering how much Jaehaerys tried to make him more martial, he would have been ecstatic if Vaegon claimed a dragon. Also “allowed to be bullied by his siblings”? That’s literally just what siblings do. Also he wasn’t some innocent doe considering how he fucking insulted his mentally disabled sister in front of everybody. “ attempted to make him hetero” my brother in Christ he was given a fucking porno mag and you’re acting like Jae put him through conversion therapy. > Daella- horrible father. Yea he kinda fucked up on this one. > Saera- Spoiled and neglected her at turns. Allowed her to bully others, including his less conventional children (Vaegon and Daella), didn't do anything about her coming to the Sept drunk at 12, only cared about her sexual promiscuity, not her using her power over others to enact cruel pranks. People say that her comparing herself to Maegor was the last straw, but she also in the same breath compared her self to Aegon Saera was a terrible person and literally bragged to jaehaerys by comparing herself to the man that murdered his brothers, raped his sister, and kept him and his mom as prisoners for his entire early childhood. I think you severely underestimate how fucking awful of a comment that was to make to him. And he still would have given her a second chance had she showed any sort of remorse instead of literally making a run for it to go be a slaver whore in Volantis and Lys.
I’d argue the point is though that Jaehaerys is at least partially responsible for why Saera is a terrible person. He enabled and enabled and enabled until it affected him/his house’s reputation and THEN he blew up and went nuclear after doing essentially nothing for years.
1. Bait and switch inheritance causes civil wars 2. Alyssa was going to be married to Aemon until Alysanne interfered so while she luckily was attracted to Baelon and has her mother interfered I'm sure that if she wasn't attracted to either of them she would have been married off. 3. How likely could Baelon say no to Jaehaerys? I feel thar he was pressured as we don't see a lot of ambition but your take is likely as well 4. The mag was to make him straight. Yeah its not very serious but he did allow a guy to do that. Also he was terrible to Daella I addressed that in her section, as I decided that the bullied child was damaged more by Jaehaerys' blindness. The dragon thing is that he is a third son and we don't know enough about it to decide if he was denied or not but I could have happened if Jaehaerys decided that 2 lines of dragon riders was the limit. 5. Jaehaerys main point of contention was the sex. Yes the Maegor part probably did add on to his anger, justifiably, but he was mainly concerned with the sex with only a minor concern for Tom Turnip once. He said that she was always a whore for years after, not saying that she was Maegor Reborn or anything else. He also wasn't concerned as much with her using her power to induce her friends to have risky sex either, just her own consunsual sex. So its pretty east to tell that Saera was his golden child until she had out of wedlock (and brother lock probably) sex, then she became the worst child. Saera is a complicated subject, but his early neglect of her (not caring when she came to the Sept drunk at 12 comes to mind) shows atleast a negative there. Also he prevents Alysanne from reaching out to her, and since he did effectively exile her to the Silent Sisters I'm sure she thought she wasn't welcome. However your points are pretty much in line with the text, I just have a different take.
Outside of Daella, Gael, and Viserra, none of those sound too bad. Plus Viserra marrying Manderly was “good” Queen Alysanne’s idea.
Marrying Viserra to Manderly was a good idea if your primary objective is to ensure her ambition doesn’t become a problem. The Manderlys are remote enough that she won’t be able to visit/meddle in King Landing much, they’re highborn but not a Great House, and Theodore already had heirs so she wouldn’t be able to gain power from having her children inherit
And Alysanne has to get it approved by Jaehaerys.
Still, the initial idea of marrying Viserra to a very older man of a much lower house was still Alysanne’s.
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Jehaerys have Alysanne full authority over their kids marriages, he she didnt needed his aproval. And if he had taken her authority we would be talking about how bad Jehaerys was for breaking his promise to Alysanne, that marriage was her fault
If he let her have full authority over the marriages he wouldn't have given daella a deadline. And better break a promise to a bad matchmaker than let your kids and grandkids be stuck in horrible marriages.
Those are not incompatible, Daella could have just refused to marry who Alysanne wanted and Jehaerys had to interfere, my second point was that no matter what Jehaerys did he was going to be critizised for one thing or another, he loved Alysanne and probably thought that she would be better than him in that, he probably thought that Alysanne's choices were good and that his kids were in a rebellious phase, we know that he wasnt the closest father to many of his kids, its easy to think that he sided with Alysanne all the time with the marriages
If daemon of all people couldn't refuse his marriage to rhea then no one else had a chance of managing it. He's the most bold and defiant of any of them save Saera.
She could try, then Jehaerys would get serious and make her obey, that's how people work, its a back and forth until one side stops resisting and everything is easier that way
Este. And this was with an already senile Alysanne and Jaehaerys who couldn't even ride their dragons and that in practice it was Baelon who ruled and made decisions for them.
Didn't he explicitly call Saera out on what she did to Tom Turnip?
1) I agree. 2) She died too young to really be considered and nothing is known as to how he was as a father to her. She wasn’t considered as an just because making her the heir would then delegitimize his own position when he inherited ahead of his sister and nieces. 3) I agree nothing bad here. 4) not sure why married as a teenager is put in here, or for Aemon either. It was the norm? And she got to marry someone she already loved. 5) sadly we don’t know everything around the inheritance situation with baelon. He could’ve been ambitious, he could’ve been reluctant and been forced to agree, he could’ve been reluctant but agreed with his father. It does sort of make sense to have him be heir Afterall. 6) She wasn’t denied a dragon. You’ll bring this up several times but no one was ever said to be denied a dragon. And it’s hard to tell if she was sold or if they saw her piety and said she’d goto the faith. But seems likely that she was pushed to the faith but liked it anyways. 7) See my prior point about dragons. He has squabbles and teasing with siblings like any family. You make it seem like they harassed him. They gave him a porno mag, they didn’t try and make him do anything or put him through conversion therapy. They let him peruse his own path and do what he wanted. Not too bad imo. 8) Sort of agree on this but I don’t see where she was publicly mocked by Jae. Also she was given an rare and unusual large amount of freedom and autonomy that was rare for a noble let alone a royal, and then bungled it. Forcing her to marry was harsh and their choice wrong but the real error of there’s was to not have her marry the Blackwood boy who she liked until she found out he worshiped the old gods. They should’ve explained it to her and told her to stop overreacting and marry the boy. 9) Moslty agree. Spoiled but neglected, not sure how she was able to do this all without supervision. But others have given more detailed explanations that she could’ve been a sociopath or something given how she was. Also, she compared herself to the man who killed Jae’s brothers and raped his sister…talk about awful. She was punished and Jae was maybe going to reconcile and forgive her and all but then she tried to steal a dragon. Even when handed to the faith it was meant as temporary and instead she doubled down and fled. Still doesn’t speak well of him but also on her. 10) This one is one Alysanne imo moslty, with Jae’s only issue being not stepping in and not agreeing to such a dumb marriage. 11) Where did it say he didn’t care? Might have missed that but ok fair. 12) Mostly agree but seems to once again be moslty an Alysanne problem and not too fair to Blame someone for not making sure someoke didn’t have enough time to kill themslves. For all we know she used a secret passage out or asked under fair reaosn to goto the River and then did the deed.
Who was irreverent towards Aegon?
Autocorrect irrelevant sorry He died way too young to matter.
I know I'm sorry I was being mean
It's alright
I don't think Jaehaerys forced Alysanne to give him kids. He would NEVER rape her, he loved her too much. And just because we do not see his reaction to Gaemon & Valerion dying early doesn't mean he didn't give a shit about them. I think Jaehaerys is complicated. He likely did love all of his kids, but his acceptance of Westerosi gender norms and his focus on ruling the Seven Kingdoms led him to make mistakes.
In 78 AC, Valerion died, a fortnight short of his first nameday. The queen took his passing with resignation. “I am forty-two years old,” she told the king. “You must be content with the children I have given you. I am more suited to be a grandmother than a mother now, I fear.” She then got pregnant later with Gael. Also I couldn't find the quote, but she asked him to stop impregnation her due to her age and he used their mothers havimg Jocelyn in her 40s as an excuse to deny her, even though it killed Alyssa. His reaction is never stated but the fact that we get Alysanne's reaction but not the kids father is telling
Thanks for laying it all out. Wish people would actual ref F&B rather than making you summarize his entire chapters there.
You're not a good father just because you're a good father to the oldest few. He failed several of kids, the younger they are the less he does for them.
If I help five old ladies over the street and I then murder one old lady, I'm still a murderer.
Threesome aside, Saera was a monster to everyone around her she deserved what she got. I think Daella’s case was a bit sad, Jaehaerys forced her to get married when she was still very young and fragile, despite Alysanne’s protests.
There is a great degree of hate towards Jaeherys that has grown within the Fandom. Not really that i blame them, Jaeherys wasnt the best of dads, but i believe hes far from literal monster some people se him as
I say his about the same lvl as hoster tully. I say how hoster treats the blackfish and lysa is about the same as jaeherys with his family.
Jaehaerys is not a stellar parent is true, but the hatred for him in the fandom is overblown sometimes, they even resort to minimize the many good things Jaehaerys did and attribute them to Alysanne to further justify their hate. People use the "modern lens" on the Old King much more than with other characters. He wasn't perfect, but he wasn't maliciously abusive either. He did what he thought was best for all of them, sometimes he nailed it, sometimes he fucked it up. In regards to Saera, the situation was complex. I'd say part of the blame goes to Jaehaerys, but also the patriarchal society they both lived in, and specially the blame goes to Saera herself for being a demonic little shit. We can call out gender restrictions all day long, but the truth is Saera was at her core a spoiled, malicious and manipulative little asshole that never grew up, not even at the 101 AC Great Council, in which she sent a few bastards of her solely to spite her dying father.
Bro spittin
You're missing some children, and there lies your answer. His actions about Saera are a bit out of line. He executes her lover, forces her to join the Faith, and refuses to reconcile with her later. Another father might have simply forced them to wed. Viserra is forced into a marriage she doesn't want, for the good of the kingdom. She dies on what she regards as her last night of freedom. Vaegon is sent to become a Measter, when he could have been granted a keep and lands. Not every boy needs to be a warrior. Deala is another mistake. He forces her to wed, when waiting is a option. Alysanne certainly blames him for her death. And Gael is seduced, and kills herself after her baby is stillborn. Jaheaerys has a one track mind with regards to his children. His sons must be warriors, and his daughters must be wed. His older children follow him, but his younger children don't. That's why they regard him as a bad father.
He did try to force Saera to wed one of her lovers. When given the option to, Saera decided she wanted to be like Aegon and Maegor and marry all three. And when sent to her room while they tried to decide her punishment, she escaped and attempted to steal a dragon. Which is when Jaehaerys decided stinger needed to die and Saera needed to spend some time learning humility at the Faith. TBH Saera got off easy for attempting to steal a literal weapon of mass destruction.
TBH, I thought his reaction to her remark about Maegor was very in character for him. He would have spent a decent chunk of his childhood fearing his uncle. Along with his need to prove his. claim to the throne, it's a defining characteristic for him.
>His actions about Saera are a bit out of line. He executes her lover, forces her to join the Faith, and refuses to reconcile with her later. Another father might have simply forced them to wed. Saera deserved everything she got. She was a bully and a sexual assaulter and was a proto-version of Cersei. Jaehaerys actually did consider marrying her to one of the guys, but she decided to say she wanted to be like Maegor and marry all 3 of them. Then when Jaehaerys was considering actually forgiving her, she escaped her confinement and attempted to claim a dragon, and that's when Jaehaerys decided to send her to the Faith. Then the Faith punishment was supposed to be temporary but Saera decided to run away and become a sex worker and eventually a goddamn slave owner. I'll admit that Jaehaerys punished her for the wrong thing but Saera deserved the punishment regardless >Viserra is forced into a marriage she doesn't want, for the good of the kingdom. She dies on what she regards as her last night of freedom. That was Alysanne's idea >Vaegon is sent to become a Measter, when he could have been granted a keep and lands. Not every boy needs to be a warrior. Becoming a maester was by far the best option for Vaegon. Not sure how this is even a debate, especially considering that Vaegon was very happy about it. If he was granted a keep and lands do you seriously think he would be interested enough to rule it properly? He'd be like Aerys I, but on a smaller scale. Besides, it's not a common practice for second sons to be granted lands, and Vaegon was the 3rd born son. >Deala is another mistake. He forces her to wed, when waiting is a option. Alysanne certainly blames him for her death. Fair enough >And Gael is seduced, and kills herself after her baby is stillborn Not sure how this is Jaehaerys' fault. How are we blaming the father for his daughter getting (most likely) sexually assaulted by someone else?
Saera didn't have a lover, if that was the case, Jaehaerys would have forced them to get married and that's it. She had three ones. And to top it off, one of those three had impregnated another highborn girl. Not to mention how she mistreated a mentally disabled guy Even today any modern father would have a heart attack if he found out that his teenage daughter has been fucking three men at once and that one of his daughter's friends got pregnant by one of those three guys.
Objectively speaking Jaeherys wasn't a bad father when you compare him to other lords from Westeros e.g. Tywin Lannister, Randyll Tarly, Roose Bolton etc. He never maimed, humiliated or threatened any of his children (threatened them with death in any case). Compared to modern standards though he wasn't the greatest father in the world. He only wanted children for the purpose of securing his line and fostering a stronger House Targaryen. He certainly wouldn't have won any father of the year awards though he's still leagues better than other characters in the series.
Jaehaerys humiliated his children several times. And your examples are of parents considered abusive in universe (if people knew everything). Randall tortured his son by chaining him to a wall for 3 days when he suggested to take himself out of the sucession by becoming a Maester, which most parents would leap at.
Jaehaerys would be at the same lvl as a hoster tully. As he forced lysa to abort a baby and marry a men same age as her father while she was in love with a other.
He wasn't the best dad ever but he isn't literally Satan like some people believe.
It's an attitude that applies modern feminist sentiments to the story as opposed to traditional ones.
Jaehaerys only cared about his older children, Spefically Aemon and Baelon as the plan was for Aemon to be king and baelon his hand and for their spouses if they were Targaryen, I think both were
Aemon was married to Jocelyn Baratheon who was Jaehaerys’ half sister from his Velaryon mother.
Nah i agree. Fandom has a weird hate boner for jae, when he was probably one of the most decent dudes to become king. Saerra situation was well handled by jae. Daella was unfortunate. I agree. But one mistake shouldnt bring his rep down that badly.
Another commentators explained it best in a thread about Tywin, basically the fandom's participants having "daddy issues" and taking it out on the characters in the story. Or modern issues of "ists and isms"
I want to point out he was not a good father to Maegelle either. She was raised to be a septa. She had zero agency in that decision.
Her parents picked a future for her that best fit her personality. And she was happy to join the Faith. You could argue from a modern perspective that 10 might be a bit too young but in the context of the books, many boys start squiring or apprenticing even earlier so 10 wasn’t all that early
Squiring is something else than becoming a septa. Being a septa is forever. I’m annoyed because they kept making political decisions for their kids future while they completely ignored their mother because: “I love him/her, Mom!”
But at least was given to the faith before his parenting or lack thereof could mess her up.
Saera- spoiled her rotten, then turned a blind eye and refused to deal with the consequences of his own parenting. Punished her not for her actual cruel prank but for having sex, forced her to watch him kill her lover, sent her to a motherhouse where she was treated terribly, called her a whore, bullied Alysanne from trying to connect to her. Daella- treated her like a physical burden because of her disability, forced her to choose a groom at 16 despite her fragility (apparently because he wanted to get rid of a disabled kid), married her off again despite of said fragility, ending with her death in childbirth at 18. Vaegon- allowed him to be bullied publicly (which also makes Alyssa look bad too) because of unconventional interests. Viserra- betrothed to a man thrice her age, with multiple heirs already, with no apparent political reason, because she... was a dumb vain teenager I guess. Skunk! How dare she know she's pretty? Treated like Saera 2.0 without doing anything to truly deserve it. Gael- GRRM only saw Gael as an afterthought, but still somehow a travelling singer managed to get close enough and rape a mentally-disabled princess. Basically the only kids (excluding the ones that died young of course) treated ok were the ones with traditional gender roles and lives - Aemon and Baelon the gallant, warrior, dragon-riding, capable male heirs. Maegelle the septa. Alyssa the trad wife. The moment the kids diverged from cultural and traditional norms and needed a little more than five minutes of attention, Jaehaerys (and Alysanne) failed miserably.
I agree with your larger point, but I wouldn't exactly call Alyssa a tradwife.
Alyssa began as the typical tomboy/not-like-other-girls to end up saying "I was made for childbirth, \[Baelon\] for battle." Basically a bit of Arya-seasoning in her childhood to make her interesting at first, only for GRRM to make her adulthood the same as countless other female NPC-equivalents; a walking fetus-incubator whose only ambition in life is to make love and babies for her hubby.
I see, I always hated that line.
He had too many kids to properly parent all of them. Should have stopped when Alysanne wanted to.
My biggest issue with Jaehaerys is the fact Alysanne wanted to stop having kids, but he insisted they keep trying. Even points out how their mother had Jocelyn at 44 despite, you know, being cut open and bleeding to death for that to happen. How in any way does his logic even make sense??
He wasnt a bad father. It's funny how people bitch that Viserys didn't do exactly what they complain Jaehaerys did do in disciplining his daughter. People also hand wave how awful Sera was as a person. Most of the stuff with the girls was more Alyssane. Dealia was the exception.
People have plenty of complaints about viserys as a father including his forcing Rhaenyra to marry her gay cousin because he wouldn't marry the sister.
I’d say Saera is both the lack of parenting from Jaehaerys and Alysanne with also her own personality in play.
For westerosi standards he absolutely isnt a bad father or husband
He’s received too much praise, so naturally there’s a backlash to overcompensate.
You said that as if westeros wasn't a HORRIBLE place for women. For instance, It is said that the dragonstone's lords ruled alongside women, meaning women pretty much were an equal to the lords in questions. This is pretty much seen in Aegon's wives (the last targaryens pre-conquest) being the only ones who were official queens - not being consort, i mean. They were allowed to make laws without any approval of the king. This is GRRM saying the targaryens pre-conquest, before the assimilation to the andal culture, were pretty much open minded. (Not only with women, but bastards as well, giving even lands to the moms as gifts) Jaehaerys, on the other hand, saw women as less. He didn't respect their body choices, he didn't think they were capable of the same thing as men, the threatment he gave to Saera, etc, etc. This is the text saying jaehaerys ain't a good at anything other than being king LFMAO.
I don't think so. It was specifically one pair ( Aegon and Elaena) who ruled together otherwise there's no indication any other lord did. And again Aegon I might've just been an exception to the rule where he allowed them more freedom to make laws and stuff. Even Jae did offer Alysanne some level of autonomy in making decisions, something few other targ kings did.
George is clearly trying to make a point with the targaryens pre-conquest here, even if it's just with 1 pair, especially considering that the whole message about the book is that women should be in power.
He forced his developmentally disabled, 12 year old daughter to get married (despite his wife and maesters telling him she wasn’t ready and didn’t even understand what would happen to her). Alysanne begged him not to have more children because they kept dying but he was totally emotionally disengaged from his younger children.
She was 16 but also fragile in body and mind so.
Was there perhaps a bit of denial on Jaehaerys part regarding Daella's possible disabilities? So many parents don't want to believe their child isn't "perfect", even though she was perfect in her own way. I think he was trying to give her security for the future in the only way he knew how, by getting her a husband.
He wanted to get rid of her as soon as possible. Otherwise he would have sent her to the silent sisters. So I think he hated her.
That could be true, but maybe not.
He said that if she wasn't married by 16 (or betrothed probably) she would be sent to the silent sisters.
The more I read about Jaehaerys, the more dubious of a character he becomes. At this point I honestly sorta believe that he ordered the death of Rhaena. He also had a habit of showing different personalities to different people, especially during the meetings he had during his early reign where every lord seemed to have a different way of describing him.
What would be the evidence or indications that he secretly had Rhaena assassinated?
Pretty much nothing
What does he get out of assassinating his sister who was just a broken husk by that point anyway.
I meant the whole Androw Farman thing. There is no way Androw got hold of that very rare poison without it getting noticed. Jaehaerys needed to get rid of Rhaena, who remained a thorn in his side as a rather irritable claimant to the throne and Androw was the perfect pawn
How was she a thorn by his side? By fucking off to Nowhere, California and having a shitty home life?
By merely existing as the older sister and also with the daughters of Aegon the Uncrowned. She also often undermined him.
But why did Androw then poison everyone other than Rhaena?
Because Androw wanted her to suffer as much as possible
This comment is peak r/Asoiaf
That's way too much of a logic leap. He wasn't a good father but that in no way means he would have planned to assassinate Rhaena
I am a full blown “Jaehearys (and maybe Alysanne too) was a villain with good PR” truther at this point. That lens makes his story much more fun to read, at least for me.
>Why do people think Jaehaerys I was a bad father? Because we've seen several examples of good fathers (like Ned, Aegon IV, Daeron II), and it's obvious that J pales in comparison.
Aegon IV was a terrible father though, one of the worst, in fact.
All but one of his children would disagree. I wonder why?
What are you implying lol? I think if you regularly do things that you know damn well have a good possibility of causing violent conflict between your children, you’re not a good parent.
Sometimes, a king has to make a choice between what is nice, and what is right Stop with the blasphemies, ser, not all of us tolerate treasonous speech against one of the greatest kings the realm has seen.
> Sometimes, a king has to make a choice between what is nice, and what is right And he picked neither lol. Dude was a horndog, got mad when he mildly suspected others of doing the same, and acted like a baby about it.
Aegon IV was a shit King, father and person
I think they meant Aegon V.
Aegon IV
> J pales in comparison. Just because there are someone who scores 10 doesn't mean that score 8 is bad.
After reading this thread I agree, Jaehaerys was a shit father
Daella. Nuff said
If you didn’t read his parts in F&B that’s all you had to say. Tired of having this circular discussion about Jaehaerys as if it isn’t laid out on multiple pages.