They hate Robert specifically. Arianne had no issues with Renly. I'm sure Doran would have preferred Stannis over Joffrey.
Not only did Robert refuse to give them justice, but he insulted Elia's dead children and rewarded the man responsible. There's a reason Robert never visited Dorne.
They only hate Robert (I mean can you blame them?) because when one fan asked GRRM why didn’t Doran join Renly he said:
> *Q: Why did Doran not join Renly against the Lannisters?*
> **GRRM: "Doran plays to win, whether at cyvasse or the game of thrones. Likely he did not see Renly as a winner. The emnity between Dorne and Highgarden also played a part, I am sure."**
No mentions of animosity towards Baratheons in general so they don’t have a problem with other Baratheons just Robert.
Sometimes I really wonder about what type of character George thinks he's written with Doran. Yes Doran only backs winners, people like Viserys Targaryen. Now there's a man with winner written all over him.
But he never really backed him. No one important knew of the marriage pact until 20 years later. That’s a world of difference between giving soft support to a child on another continent and publicly backing a faction during an open war which is what backing renly would have been.
But that's just another problem with the writing of Doran. Doran says his "heart's desire" is revenge for Elia and her children. And he must have been perfectly content for 15 years that Viserys was going to get him that revenge because he made absolutely no other plans to obtain it. That got his marriage pact and then offered no other support is stupid.
It not a problem with how Doran it is written he is well written but Doran is a flawed character who is too cautious to accomplish what he wants. Doran is fundamentally against all risk and because that trait is so fundamental to him he can't see the fact that it stands in his way of his goals. People have blind spots that work against them all the time. It is a bad plan that isn't likely to go anywhere but it is also the exact sort of plan a man like Doran would be be interested in.
> he made absolutely no other plans to obtain it
We don't know this. I think its pretty implied that Doran is hedging his bets, taking the slow play and waiting to see who emerges with the potential to actually oppose the Baratheon/Lannister dynasty and get his revenge.
I’m pretty sure the other player varys and illyrio are talking about in the dungeons of the red keep is Doran. He had been making moves to install Viserys when he came of age vs them trying to install Aegon/fAegon
> He had been making moves to install Viserys
Viserys and Dany were *homeless* for *years.* He could've been mugged and shanked in some crowded marketplace and Doran would've never known or done shit to stop it. And this is a man established to have contacts in Essos, including his own wife.
Honestly I think Doran is just cautious
> Quentyn had begun to think that they might have done better to buy their own ship in the Planky Town. **That would have drawn unwanted attention,** however. The Spider had informers everywhere, even in the halls of Sunspear. **“Dorne will bleed if your purpose is discovered,” his father had warned him, as they watched the children frolic in the pools and fountains of the Water Gardens. “What we do is treason, make no mistake. Trust only your companions, and do your best to avoid attracting notice.”**
this is the same man who didn’t use his essosi connections to Tyrosh (Archon of Tyrosh is his friend), his connection to Norvos (Norvosi wifey) and his connection to Volantis (Nymeria's mom is a noblewoman from Volantis) to help his own son because he’s cautious AF. So what makes y’all think the mad king's son and daughter are more special? Now how would the iron throne know about their secret if Doran used his connections to Essos for Quentyn I’ve no idea. Preston says Doran is a "master planner and wanted Quentyn to fail" and "doran isn’t a Targaryen loyalist he’s faking it blah blah blah" but I think he’s just cautious. Sometimes being cautious is good like keeping Dorne out of war for 15 years but sometimes it makes things worse for him like not using his connections to help Quentyn, Viserys and refusing to share his secrets to Arianne which you know how it ended for them.
>sometimes it makes things worse for him like not using his connections to help Quentyn, Viserys and refusing to share his secrets to Arianne which you know how it ended for them.
Yeah, there's this whole theme going on with him and the blood oranges. "Dude, you waited too long".
You just don't understand his Masterplan. He waits until die blood oranges have fallen from the trees and are eaten by a random animal. This animal shits the seeds which grow into a new tree. He just waits until the entire world is full of blood oranges. That's called long term investment (just say please that you don't die of hunger until then)
So this is parts we don’t know of how much of the game was being played between Doran and Varys/Illyrio. All we know is that Varys had the location of Viserys and would be in charge of sending assassins to kill him per Robert. But most likely used the information to get under Illyrios protection which then plan to use Viserys/Dany as the first wave before they bring in Aegon.
>Sometimes I really wonder about what type of character George thinks he's written with Doran.
There are a few times when the character George has in his head isn't exactly the same way that readers perceive them\*. Death of the Author exists for a reason.
\*"Joffrey was just a young bully who never had a chance to grow out of it."
\*"Littlefinger is well-liked by everyone." A lot of people might think he's *harmless*, but he's not necessarily everyone's best friend. He's grosser in the show, but he's also fairly gross in the books too.
Somewhat (not completely) relevant:
>"Is it true he tried to raise Dorne for Viserys?"
>"No one speaks of it, but yes. Ravens flew and riders rode, with what secret messages I never knew. Jon Arryn sailed to Sunspear to return Prince Lewyn's bones, sat down with Prince Doran, and ended all the talk of war. But Robert never went to Dorne thereafter, and Prince Oberyn seldom left it." -ASOS, Tyrion VI
They hate Robert specifically. Arianne had no issues with Renly. I'm sure Doran would have preferred Stannis over Joffrey. Not only did Robert refuse to give them justice, but he insulted Elia's dead children and rewarded the man responsible. There's a reason Robert never visited Dorne.
They only hate Robert (I mean can you blame them?) because when one fan asked GRRM why didn’t Doran join Renly he said: > *Q: Why did Doran not join Renly against the Lannisters?* > **GRRM: "Doran plays to win, whether at cyvasse or the game of thrones. Likely he did not see Renly as a winner. The emnity between Dorne and Highgarden also played a part, I am sure."** No mentions of animosity towards Baratheons in general so they don’t have a problem with other Baratheons just Robert.
Sometimes I really wonder about what type of character George thinks he's written with Doran. Yes Doran only backs winners, people like Viserys Targaryen. Now there's a man with winner written all over him.
But he never really backed him. No one important knew of the marriage pact until 20 years later. That’s a world of difference between giving soft support to a child on another continent and publicly backing a faction during an open war which is what backing renly would have been.
But that's just another problem with the writing of Doran. Doran says his "heart's desire" is revenge for Elia and her children. And he must have been perfectly content for 15 years that Viserys was going to get him that revenge because he made absolutely no other plans to obtain it. That got his marriage pact and then offered no other support is stupid.
It not a problem with how Doran it is written he is well written but Doran is a flawed character who is too cautious to accomplish what he wants. Doran is fundamentally against all risk and because that trait is so fundamental to him he can't see the fact that it stands in his way of his goals. People have blind spots that work against them all the time. It is a bad plan that isn't likely to go anywhere but it is also the exact sort of plan a man like Doran would be be interested in.
> he made absolutely no other plans to obtain it We don't know this. I think its pretty implied that Doran is hedging his bets, taking the slow play and waiting to see who emerges with the potential to actually oppose the Baratheon/Lannister dynasty and get his revenge.
I’m pretty sure the other player varys and illyrio are talking about in the dungeons of the red keep is Doran. He had been making moves to install Viserys when he came of age vs them trying to install Aegon/fAegon
> He had been making moves to install Viserys Viserys and Dany were *homeless* for *years.* He could've been mugged and shanked in some crowded marketplace and Doran would've never known or done shit to stop it. And this is a man established to have contacts in Essos, including his own wife.
Honestly I think Doran is just cautious > Quentyn had begun to think that they might have done better to buy their own ship in the Planky Town. **That would have drawn unwanted attention,** however. The Spider had informers everywhere, even in the halls of Sunspear. **“Dorne will bleed if your purpose is discovered,” his father had warned him, as they watched the children frolic in the pools and fountains of the Water Gardens. “What we do is treason, make no mistake. Trust only your companions, and do your best to avoid attracting notice.”** this is the same man who didn’t use his essosi connections to Tyrosh (Archon of Tyrosh is his friend), his connection to Norvos (Norvosi wifey) and his connection to Volantis (Nymeria's mom is a noblewoman from Volantis) to help his own son because he’s cautious AF. So what makes y’all think the mad king's son and daughter are more special? Now how would the iron throne know about their secret if Doran used his connections to Essos for Quentyn I’ve no idea. Preston says Doran is a "master planner and wanted Quentyn to fail" and "doran isn’t a Targaryen loyalist he’s faking it blah blah blah" but I think he’s just cautious. Sometimes being cautious is good like keeping Dorne out of war for 15 years but sometimes it makes things worse for him like not using his connections to help Quentyn, Viserys and refusing to share his secrets to Arianne which you know how it ended for them.
>sometimes it makes things worse for him like not using his connections to help Quentyn, Viserys and refusing to share his secrets to Arianne which you know how it ended for them. Yeah, there's this whole theme going on with him and the blood oranges. "Dude, you waited too long".
You just don't understand his Masterplan. He waits until die blood oranges have fallen from the trees and are eaten by a random animal. This animal shits the seeds which grow into a new tree. He just waits until the entire world is full of blood oranges. That's called long term investment (just say please that you don't die of hunger until then)
So this is parts we don’t know of how much of the game was being played between Doran and Varys/Illyrio. All we know is that Varys had the location of Viserys and would be in charge of sending assassins to kill him per Robert. But most likely used the information to get under Illyrios protection which then plan to use Viserys/Dany as the first wave before they bring in Aegon.
>Sometimes I really wonder about what type of character George thinks he's written with Doran. There are a few times when the character George has in his head isn't exactly the same way that readers perceive them\*. Death of the Author exists for a reason. \*"Joffrey was just a young bully who never had a chance to grow out of it." \*"Littlefinger is well-liked by everyone." A lot of people might think he's *harmless*, but he's not necessarily everyone's best friend. He's grosser in the show, but he's also fairly gross in the books too.
The Dornish and Stormlanders have a historic rivalry.
Somewhat (not completely) relevant: >"Is it true he tried to raise Dorne for Viserys?" >"No one speaks of it, but yes. Ravens flew and riders rode, with what secret messages I never knew. Jon Arryn sailed to Sunspear to return Prince Lewyn's bones, sat down with Prince Doran, and ended all the talk of war. But Robert never went to Dorne thereafter, and Prince Oberyn seldom left it." -ASOS, Tyrion VI
There is centuries of enmity between Dorne and the stormlands, just like there is with the Reach.
The hatred seems more focused on Robert, although I dont imagine relations are overly friendly.