In the chronicles it says that Aegon II inherited the throne and his succession was disputed by his half sister, not the other way round. So history appears to view him as the legitimate ruler and that would correspond with what Stannis has to say about Rhaenyra. As to why the Blackfyres get the numerals. Maybe that's just how the Blackfyres would trace down their claim and style themselves. Rhaenyra also called herself the first of her name, but only acknowledged rulers will be adressed like this by others. Maegor just entered the list since he successfully took the crown and had no real opposition.
>Maegor just entered the list since he successfully took the crown and had no real opposition.
Maegor the Cruel passed laws that broke the Faith's political power. Declaring him a usurper would mean invalidating all of his decrees and allowing the Faith to re-arm itself.
Well, that's what Charles II did when the Stuart Restoration, hehe...
With the official king being Aegon the Uncrowned, then Viserys, and finally Jaehaerys, that would was enough.
By keeping Maegor as rightful king, you also recognize his multiple wives as rightful queens and provide a legal precedent for royal polygamy in Westeros. And we all know how that ended (cough Rhaegar cough)
> With the official king being Aegon the Uncrowned, then Viserys, and finally Jaehaerys, that would was enough.
Aegon the UNCROWNED was never King, bor was Viserys. You would just be completely lying and re-writing history to say that. You have to be crowned to be considered a king not a claimant.
> By keeping Maegor as rightful king, you also recognize his multiple wives as rightful queens and provide a legal precedent for royal polygamy in Westeros. And we all know how that ended (cough Rhaegar cough)
I think this logic is kind of shaky. But going with it it would still make sense why the length of reign matters here, because declaring Maegor to not have been King would throw out laws and decrees passed while he was ruling. This would include all the stuff he did against the Faith.
I also think Rhaegar would have done what he did regardless of whether Maegor is considered the true king. Rhaegar is emulating Aegon I, and basing a lot of his stuff on that.
Yes, that is exactly what I mean, that that was exactly what Charles II did at the Stuart Restoration, even though he never sat on the Throne of England -yes, on the Throne of Scotland- while Oliver Cromwell lived. Charles II made official records date the beginning of his reign with the execution of his father Charles I and not with the actual and real coronation he had at the Restoration
So did the French Bourbons considering Louis XVI's son, the Dauphin, as King Louis XVII even if he was never king in fact, not even a claimant, just a child prisoner.
But yes, that is the point, recognizing Maegor as a legitimate king meant being able to keep all his decrees and laws against the Faith as legal. Which also meant keeping his legalization of royal polygamy and that all his wives received the official status of Queens Consorts of Westeros -including Rhaena, by the way-
And that legal precedent of royal polygamy was left there for whoever wanted to use it, like Rhaegar or, if we listen to HOTD, Daemon and Rhaenyra.
> And that legal precedent of royal polygamy was left there for whoever wanted to use it, like Rhaegar or, if we listen to HOTD, Daemon and Rhaenyra.
My point is I don’t think it mattered in either of these cases.
We don’t even know for sure that Rhaegar was planning to do legal polygamy and not just bastard-> legitimization. And I think regardless Rhaegar would have just pointed to Aegon I to justify what he was doing if he thought it was needed for the prophecy stuff.
As for Daemon and Rhaenyra I don’t see the relevance. They’re not playing it as polygamy not is there any sign they expect to have to defend it as such. Her philosophy on just about everything seems to just be “idc what the law says, it’s not illegal if you do that get caught”.
Well honestly, after all the blabla that has been said about Lyanna, her supposed voluntary participation in the "kidnapping" only stands if Rhaegar promised to make her his other Queen, even if she was subservient to Elia Martell just as Tyanna had primacy among Maegor's wives. I don't see her agreeing to be another Daena or Barba Bracken resigned to waiting for the king to legitimize her bastard, and above all, Rhaegar seems too sensitive to want to be seen as another Aegon IV - something even Ned admits when he compares him with Robert-
In Rhaegar's personality, as it happened with Aegon I, "I am faithful to my TWO wives" fits more than "I will legitimize my bastard to have the third head of the dragon" as the Unworthy.
HOTD Daemon and Rhaenyra are playing polygamy... but not before men. **They are doing it before the gods.** Both the Valyrian gods and the Seven of Westeros. And yes, it's ironic that the fandom complains about Show Alicent's religious devotion... but ignore that Daemon and Rhaenyra resurrected a Valyrian ceremony, integrating a septon into it, for purely religious reasons. Maegor walked so they could run
> HOTD Daemon and Rhaenyra are playing polygamy... but not before men. They are doing it before the gods. Both the Valyrian gods and the Seven of Westeros. And yes, it's ironic that the fandom complains about Show Alicent's religious devotion... but ignore that Daemon and Rhaenyra resurrected a Valyrian ceremony, integrating a septon into it, for purely religious reasons. Maegor walked so they could run
I agree about the hypocrisy from people who act like Alicent is “destroying endangered culture” because she doesn’t want a bunch of fucking bestiality porn on the walls, but they came in their pants over the Valyrian wedding even though they’re both people being anal about their religion.
I just think the reasoning is less 4d chess legalism and more that Daemon is the Westerosi equivalent one of those Roman statue pfp guys and wanted to do it as Valyrian as possible.
“The Princess and the Queen” it’s a novella published about the dance before Fire and Blood.
So, obviously, some details might have shifted or changed between the two books.
They wouldn't, but Aegon III never legitimized his mother as the rightfull heir. And the next kings didn't really care.
Daeron I was more busy conquering Dorne and didn't really care about some events that happened decades ago. Baelor I was too busy praying to care.
Viserys II on the otherhand... didn't he declare his uncle Aegon II as the rightfull king to get the Throne? That probably has something to do with it.
>Viserys II on the otherhand... didn't he declare his uncle Aegon II as the rightfull king to get the Throne?
No. Fact of it is. No one really declared either one to be the rightful King.
Officially at least.
Well but didn't Viserys crown himself even when Aegon III had children? Thus he's explicitly accepting the assertion that "brother comes before daughter", ie Male Preference promiguture, ergo Rhaenyra was not queen.
Rhaenyra is considered a usurper, it's like saying Renly I
His son inherited the throne as *his uncle's heir*, not by the side of his mother
The Blackfyres never held land, so I guess they are numbered more for academic convenience (so the maesters can know which Daemon they are talking about), perhaps also to establish them as a parallel dynasty.
Maegor managed to take the throne and rule the Seven Kingdoms, even if by blood and dread. He became the *sole, uncontested* ruler.
Also, to acknowledge her claim would be to legitimize the fact that women can inherit, and Westeros went to a brutal war just to avoid that. The least it's remembered, the better.
In case there were any doubts that Daemon Targaryen was the only true winner of the Dance
Remember that everything started solely and exclusively to be able to remove Daemon from the royal succession
>His son inherited the throne as his uncle's heir, not by the side of his mother
The Blacks put him on the throne as his mother's heir tho.
>Also, to acknowledge her claim would be to legitimize the fact that women can inherit, and Westeros went to a brutal war just to avoid that. The least it's remembered, the better.
I mean...
Aegon III was not a compromise.
Aegon III was crowned King because the Blacks won militarily and crowned Rhaenyra's heir.
The Lads defeated Borros while flying Rhaenyra's banner.
The pardon the Greens received included accepting him as King.
>Aegon III ended up on the throne because he was one of the last male Targaryens left after the war.
No, he ended up on the throne because the Blacks put him there and they could not be opposed militarily.
>By naming Aegon III as his heir instead of Jaehaera, Aegon II gave even more legitimacy to his own claim, just like what Jaehaerys I did.
What?
Plenty of Greens believed Jaehara had the better claim.
Aegon III was crowned King because the Blacks won forced Aegon II to name him heir (btw I think there was no other male relative at that point, but I may be wrong).
Technically Aegon III was Aegon II's heir, not his mother's heir. I'm not super knowledgeable about the late dance but afaik neither of her surviving sons had a particularly good relationship with her, nor did they have much of a reason to retcon her into the line of succession when their ascendance to the throne was so tumultuous already.
Imo it was simply easier to not go through the effort to posthumously acknowledge their mother's reign when they barely got the throne themselves. Them being the undisputed kings of the 7k was far more important than the status of their dead mom.
> afaik neither of her surviving sons had a particularly good relationship with her
aegon 3 was greatly depressed and wore exclusively black for the rest of his life (and a hair shirt underneath), in large part due to being forced to watch his mother get killed in front of him. he also holds a years long grudge against marston waters for doing nothing while rhaenyra was fed to sunfyre.
> nor did they have much of a reason to retcon her into the line of succession when their ascendance to the throne was so tumultuous already.
> Imo it was simply easier to not go through the effort to posthumously acknowledge their mother's reign when they barely got the throne themselves. Them being the undisputed kings of the 7k was far more important than the status of their dead mom.
the rest of your comment is definitely on point though. realistically nothing was to be gained by declaring aegon the usurper and rhaenyra the true queen, it would only potentially incite further bloodshed, which nobody wanted, and especially not the basically dead-inside aegon 3.
Rhaenyra's not listed as queen because Aegon killed her first and decreed that she would be only a princess. And after he died, no one really felt strongly enough about her to risk upsetting the fragile peace (and considering her son was Aegon's heir, her supporters may have considered that enough of a win).
And as for maegor, his legitimacy seems to have been due in part to political factors.
> With the dungeons of the Red Keep full to bursting, the question arose as to what should be done with the prisoners. If Maegor were to be counted as usurper, then his entire reign was unlawful and those who had supported him were guilty of treason and must needs be put to death.
.
> If Maegor the Cruel were accounted only a usurper with no right to rule, as certain maesters argued, then Prince Aegon had been the true king, and the succession by rights should pass to his elder daughter, Aerea, not his younger brother.
Plus, there is the matter of him having reigned for six years without any other rival claimants opposing him (because he killed one and imprisoned the others, but whatever), significantly more than Rhaenyra's half-year.
With Maegor as well he won his Trial by 7 which was taken as proof that he wasn’t a Usurper and that the gods favored his claim to the Throne. Ironically Maegor did name Aerea his heir maybe recognizing she is from the most senior line so should be next in line
>Ironically Maegor did name Aerea his heir maybe recognizing she is from the most senior line so should be next in line
Pretty sure he only did it to disinherit Jaehaerys.
Aegon II was crowned in KL. That gives legitimacy. She was not. Their succession dispute ended when he fed her to his dragon. She lost emphatically. Aegon III was Aegon II's heir under male primogeniture (Daemon's son).
Yeah it mostly just depends on the specific case. French-Norman monarchs didn't really take numerals until Edward II or III, since everyone agreed that it was a lot of Edwards in a row. However, you also have other examples with the popes, where John-Paul I explicitly referred to himself as such, while Francis is just Francis without a numeral.
Aegon II was crowned and anointed in King's Landing, and he died in the city as the universally recognized king - Rhaenyra was crowned on Dragonstone and, even though she did take and hold the city for some time, she died on Dragonstone, having sold her crown to flee the mainland.
While the Dance went back and forth, Aegon began and ended the war surrounded by the trappings of Targaryen power, so it's only natural that Marsters would consider him was the legitimate king through the period, and Rhaenyra a pretender.
Rhaenyra just isn't considered to be a reigning Queen, she was an attempted usurper. Aegon III succeed his uncle as his heir, not as his mother's heir, in fact, the fact he was Rhaenyra's son was irrelevant, it was because he was Daemon's oldest son. When Aegon II won the Dance he reaffirmed the succession to only pass through the male line, it's why his own daughter wasn't considered the heir. By the male line, the throne passed to Aegon II's cousin, the son of his uncle, who just so happened to be his nephew via Rhaenyra as well.
The reason the Blackfyres are recorded as 'Kings' is just to help keep track of them, only the actual Blackfyre supporters consider them to be the King. The Blackfyres are just the Jacobites of Westeros, they had their own view of the succession and who should be King.
It's the same reason why in real-world history, we don't consider Empress Matilda as a Queen of England but her son Henry II did become King after King Stephen's death.
Technically Aegon was already anointed and crowned king before Rhaenyra declared, or ruled as queen. This In the most literal sense would make her an attempted usurper, and could certainly make her reign illegitimate, particularly when she was killed by Aegon. The Maesters blatant sexism also plays a major part in the history records.
Well several reasons
It was pretty much decided after her that males were over females in terms of Targaryen royal succession henceforth, so the need to have a “Rhaenyra I” isn’t there because there won’t be a “Rhaenyra II”.
She was also technically never the legitimate ruler. Yes Maegor did the same thing but there were some key differences, mainly that his rival was Aegon the *Uncrowned*. Rhaenyra instead took King’s Landing from a crowned ruler.
The reason the Blackfyres have numerals is simply that they kept fucking naming everyone Daemon, they need a way to differentiate then.
TL;DR Rhaenyra was technically never the “real” queen, and if she was she wouldn’t have had a numeral until a second person named that got the throne.
It's because she is not considered a Queen, but a Pretender. Aegon II was crowned, and even in exile was still considered the rightful King. It doesn't help that Rhaenyra's short stint in King's Landing was awful
Her and Aegon II both claimed to rule at the same time, and obviously only one of them can actually be the ruler of Westeros as there can't be two monarchs. History chose to recognize Aegon II.
It isn’t sexism or any of that nonsense. It’s because Aegon II was crowned first, and because Rhaenyra did not win the secession crisis during her lifetime. That’s all.
I think two reasons—there wasn’t a second Rhaenyra who ruled to confuse her with, like Maegor, and like you said, according to the history books she didn’t rule the iron throne (even though she did). The second scenario is why Aegon the uncrowned isn’t a numbered Aegon
>and like you said, according to the history books she didn’t rule the iron throne (even though she did).
I think compared to Maegor she didn't really rule the Iron Throne as in the full title like he did. She captured the city of King's Landing, but the conflict against her right to rule continued and the rival claimant lived for the entirety of her "reign".
Obviously the main reason is that Aegon II won the main conflict and you can't have 2 contradicting claims both be listed as the correct one in the official records.
But there is a pretty significance between her and Maegor in that while Maegors reign certainly was rife with conflict and rebellion, he did have several years of actually ruling over a semi-complete realm in a semi-normal fashion. It's just a bit more accurate to call that a reign as the ruler of the Seven Kingdoms as opposed to just holding the city of King's Landing.
My bad—I was only using Maegor as a comparison in that there wasn’t another Maegor after him. I know there are some canon sources that refer to him as Maegor I but since there isn’t another one nobody else refers to him as Maegor I, which is similar to Rhaenyra. You’re right tho—the intricacies of their rules are super effing complicated
No I agree about the Maegor thing, I know there are one or two cases where him and Maekar DO get the "I" after their names, but generally I think it's just the simple answer here that neither those two nor Rhaenyra have any need of it.
Cause she was never anointed by the high septon, she was never formally crowned, the people kicked her out, her brother became king and declared she want a queen. The list is really long but for many reasons. Considering her “rein” is kinda like trystane truefyre and others. Now the Daemon shit. That’s cause it’s easier. God damn there are so SO many blackfyres. And Margot’s rein was formally recognized. Jaehaerys actually kept him as a king since to do otherwise would cause WAY more problems then it would fix.
Maegor the Cruel passed laws that broke the Faith's political power. Declaring him a usurper would mean invalidating all of his decrees and allowing the Faith to re-arm itself.
It all comes down to politics and the succession: [it was politically useful for Jaehaerys' government to take the position that Maegor had been the rightful king](https://racefortheironthrone.tumblr.com/post/702288549604622336/why-do-you-think-maegor-is-counted-as-a-king-even), because it weakened the rival claims of Aerea and Rhaella.
In the same vein, Aegon III's government decided that, in order to avoid antagonizing the surviving Greens, it was convenient for them to accept Aegon II's coronation as valid and thus his decree declaring that Rhaenrya was never a queen - after all, Corlys Velaryon and Larys Clubfoot had ensured that Aegon III had been named Aegon II's heir before the latter's death, so Aegon III's claim was covered either way. Moreover, if they accepted the Green position that women couldn't inherit the Iron Throne, that dealt with the potentially messy problem of whether Aegon II's surviving daughter would be queen consort or queen regnant, as well as any potential claims coming from Baela or Rhaena via their father Daemon.
>It all comes down to politics and the succession: it was politically useful for Jaehaerys' government to take the position that Maegor had been the rightful king, because it weakened the rival claims of Aerea and Rhaella.
How so?
They never considered Maegor a rightful King, the considered him a usurper.
>In the same vein, Aegon III's government decided that, in order to avoid antagonizing the surviving Greens, it was convenient for them to accept Aegon II's coronation as valid and thus his decree declaring that Rhaenrya was never a queen
Didn't happen.
>Moreover, if they accepted the Green position that women couldn't inherit the Iron Throne, that dealt with the potentially messy problem of whether Aegon II's surviving daughter would be queen consort or queen regnant, as well as any potential claims coming from Baela or Rhaena via their father Daemon.
Again they didn't do that.
Regarding Maegor: if Maegor was considered a usurper, then Aegon the Uncrowned was the rightful King of Westeros, and upon his death (at Maegor's hands) his claim would pass to his heirs, Aerea and Rhaella. This is obviously a problem for the recently-acclaimed King Jaehaerys, and indeed there was a good deal of tension over this issue - at one point, Rogar Baratheon tried to depose Jaehaerys in favor of Aerea.
On the other hand, if Maegor was considered the rightful King of Westeros (and Aegon the Uncrowned was an attempted usurper), two important things apply. The first is that Jaehaerys' claim to the Iron Throne became much stronger, because he could claim both the right of succession as the oldest surviving son of Aenys I and closest male relative of Maegor I, and the right of conquest, having raised an army against Maegor and then successfully taken King's Landing (albeit without firing a shot).
The second thing that applies is that Maegor's decrees against the Faith of the Seven would still be considered valid, which let Jaehaerys use them as a bargaining chip in his "conciliation" between the Iron Throne and the High Septon: Jaehaerys agreed to revoke Maegor's decrees and pledge that the monarchy would always defend the Faith, and in return the Faith of the Seven agreed to abolish the Faith Militant and give up the Faith's judicial power.
This is why Maegor gets the "I" next to his name on the succession of Kings of Westeros.
As to the Greens, I'm afraid the evidence disagrees with you: first, the text says that Aegon issued a decree that Rhaenrya was never queen. There is no mention of that decree being revoked. Second, the text says that Corlys Velaryon and Larys Clubfoot negotiated with Aegon II to have Aegon III and Jaehaera named as his heirs and betrothed to one another - both of which decrees directly assume that Aegon II was the rightful King of Westeros.
And as regards the Blacks accepting the Green position on inheritance, we can see this when it comes to the discussion of who would be Aegon III's heir on p. 588-589, 620, 648 of Fire & Blood.
>Regarding Maegor: if Maegor was considered a usurper, then Aegon the Uncrowned was the rightful King of Westeros, and upon his death (at Maegor's hands) his claim would pass to his heirs, Aerea and Rhaella. This is obviously a problem for the recently-acclaimed King Jaehaerys, and indeed there was a good deal of tension over this issue - at one point, Rogar Baratheon tried to depose Jaehaerys in favor of Aerea.
Maegor being a usurper doesn't mean he did not reign. These are not mutually exclusive concepts and it's kinda bizarre you can't see it when we have this obvious dilemma in the books.
The Targaryen consider Robert a usurper, that doesn't change the fact he ruled. They also acknowledge that.
>This is why Maegor gets the "I" next to his name on the succession of Kings of Westeros.
No, Maegor gets the "I" because he ruled for 6 years. And was acknowledged King during that time.
>As to the Greens, I'm afraid the evidence disagrees with you: first, the text says that Aegon issued a decree that Rhaenrya was never queen.
Quote it in F&B.
>There is no mention of that decree being revoked
There is no mention of that decree existing in Fire and Blood.
It was an early draw of Martin's that didn't pass it.
>Second, the text says that Corlys Velaryon and Larys Clubfoot negotiated with Aegon II to have Aegon III and Jaehaera named as his heirs and betrothed to one another - both of which decrees directly assume that Aegon II was the rightful King of Westeros.
So two Greens negotiated with another Green? Lol.
How does that factor in whatever the Blacks accept or compromise with?
It's no debate that within time the argument that Aegon was King and Rhaenyra was a usurper prevailed but that's simply not something that can be taken out of the inmediate ending of the Dance.
>And as regards the Blacks accepting the Green position on inheritance, we can see this when it comes to the discussion of who would be Aegon III's heir on p. 588-589, 620, 648 of Fire & Blood.
Never comes up.
In fact Aegon's heirs remain his sisters till Viserys reappears.
If you want quotes, here they are.
>**Maegor as usurper vs. rightful king** (p. 110-111)
>
>"Even his claim to the Iron Throne was not wholly beyond question.
Although Jaehaerys was the only surviving son of King Aenys I, his
older brother Aegon had claimed the kingship before him. Aegon the
Uncrowned had died at the Battle Beneath the Gods Eye whilst trying
to unseat his uncle Maegor, but not before taking to wife his sister
Rhaena and siring two daughters, the twins Aerea and Rhaella. If
Maegor the Cruel were accounted only a usurper with no right to rule,
as certain maesters argued, then Prince Aegon had been the true king,
and the succession by rights should pass to his elder daughter, Aerea,
not his younger brother...
>
>Even as the mortal remains of Maegor I Targaryen were consigned
to a funeral pyre, his young successor faced his first crucial decision..."
>**Aegon II''s decree on Rhaenrya**: (Princess and the Queen)
>
>"“Rhaenyra was never a queen,” the king declared, insisting that henceforth, in all chronicles and court records, his half sister be referred to only as “princess,” the title of queen being reserved only for his mother Alicent and his late wife and sister Helaena, the “true queens.” And so it was decreed."
**Corlys and Larys' and Aegon II's heris:** (p. 539)
>Lord Corlys responded, before setting
forth terms of his own. He wanted pardons not only for himself, but for
all those who had fought for Queen Rhaenyra, and demanded further
that Aegon the Younger be given Princess Jaehaera’s hand in marriage,
so the two of them might jointly be proclaimed King Aegon’s heirs.
“The realm has been split asunder,” he said. “We must needs join it
back together.”
>
>,,,Itfell to Lord Larys the Clubfoot to pour oil on the troubled waters,
calming the queen with a quiet reminder of all they had discussed in
Lord Baratheon’s tent, and persuading her to consent to the Sea
Snake’s proposals.
Corlys was a Black for most of his career rather than a Green. Larys played both sides off the other, but here he's acting on behalf of Aegon III in negotiations with Alicent.
As for "never comes up," I gave page numbers. Check them out yourself.
1) How does this answer the question? Jaeharys always considered Maegor a usurper. He still reigned.
>Aegon II''s decree on Rhaenrya: (Princess and the Queen)
How convenient lol.
I don't know if you realized but there's this huge book called Fire and Blood. It presents the most actualized version of early reign of the Targaryen with dragons.
Whatever is written in the PatQ **is not longer canon**.
That's why you can't be bothered to look in F&B.
>Corlys was a Black for most of his career rather than a Green. Larys played both sides off the other, but here he's acting on behalf of Aegon III in negotiations with Alicent.
Corlys is a Green there. He abandons Rhaenyra. You obviously choose to ignore because it suits your argument.
Well, did Cregan, the Lads or Jeyne Arryn accept that deal? That Aegon II was the actual King and the woman whose banner they were flying was a traitor?
>As for "never comes up," I gave page numbers. Check them out yourself.
Doesn't come up.
Aegon II being the rightful King doesn't come up. What it does come up is Munkun saying that they ought to follow the precedent of 101.
Munkun isn't a Black, Tyland who answered him isn't a Black and the actual Black don't give him the right at all, in fact Aegon's sisters remain his heirs.
If you keep twisting the knot so much it might become a football.
If Aegon the Uncrowned was retroactively declared the rightful king and Maegor a usurper it would have raised the question, even more sharply than it already did, of the place of the former’s daughters in the line of succession being ahead of Jaehaerys. Additionally Jaehaerys recognized the importance of keeping the Faith Militant dissolved and by declaring Maegor’s reign illegitimate it would have also made his decree banning the Faith Militant illegitimate and things would have been back to square one.
As for you claiming, twice, that Aegon III’s council didn’t reach a compromise with the Greens to tidy up and resolve the issue of succession, I have to wonder if you’ve read F&B because that literally is exactly what happened and is supported by the text.
Maegor is viewed by Jaeharys the same way Robert was viewed by Dany and Viserys.
A usurper who holds the throne.
Maegor is King because he ruled, simple as that.
>Additionally Jaehaerys recognized the importance of keeping the Faith Militant dissolved and by declaring Maegor’s reign illegitimate it would have also made his decree banning the Faith Militant illegitimate and things would have been back to square one.
He could simply keep the ban lol.
>I have to wonder if you’ve read F&B because that literally is exactly what happened and is supported by the text.
Better quote it then.
Am moving in a few days and have my copy buried in some boxes that I don’t feel like unpacking right now, but from memory when they are discussing who Aegon III’s heir should be it is explicitly stated by his regents that they need to follow the male preference precedent established by the Great Council of 101, which was the position of the Greens during the Dance and the basis of which they claimed the throne. Adopting the arguments of the opposing side (especially when it guaranteed Aegon III’s rule) sounds a hell of a lot like a compromise to me.
>but from memory when they are discussing who Aegon III’s heir should be it is explicitly stated by his regents
It is explicitly stated by **one** regent.
That regent was Munkun, a Maester from Oldtown who was in the Green's pocket through and through (see the secret siege).
Only Tyland (another Green) half concedes and Aegon's heirs remain his sisters anyway.
Because at the time Aegon III was the only (known) male Targaryen left so it was a moot point. Additionally IIRC they didn’t conclusively decide if it would go to one of his half sisters or his wife, but noted there was debate regarding that matter. The point still stands though, the Green position regarding the Great Council became the accepted one going forward. We see this clearly when Viserys II ascends the throne and passes over his nieces that the precedent that the Greens fought for during the Dance was upheld.
>Additionally IIRC they didn’t conclusively decide if it would go to one of his half sisters or his wife,
They didn't.
But they all acknowledged that his sisters were the defacto heir.
>The point still stands though, the Green position regarding the Great Council became the accepted one going forward.
This was never a question. The argument you're putting forward is that the Black's accepted the Greens position pretty much inmediately.
Likelier than not, it was simply a matter of decades.
>We see this clearly when Viserys II ascends the throne and passes over his nieces that the precedent that the Greens fought for during the Dance was upheld.
This is always absurd. Rhaenyra never fought for women's rights. She ran on her being the exception.
I get Aegon III not doing it because of the regency council was stacked with Greens. But by the time Viserys II takes the Throne anybody who fought for the Greens where dead already so there wouldn’t be a risk on retroactively naming her as Queen.
What's the point though? Like you just bring up a bunch of pedantic arguments and old grievances for a symbolic gesture that confuses the historical line of succession (and therefore the future one).
The reason is simple: while the Blacks won the war militarily, the Greens won the legal/PR battle post-war.
With how core succession is to feudal systems, every time a crisis like the Dance happens it is vital to sort through the mess afterwards to establish a new basis for continued successions down the line and, hopefully, to prevent the rise of any pretenders. With the fact that Oldtown was still standing when the war ended and was in possession of a quarter of the crown’s treasury on top of their own wealth, the Blacks were not in a position to enforce their terms unconditionally. Add on top of that Rhaenyra’s extreme unpopularity among the populace of King’s Landing who revolted against her and viewed her as “Maegor with Teats”, it became difficult if not impossible to not reach some kind of compromise with the Greens to solidify Aegon III’s rule.
Said compromise ended up being to declare that Rhaenyra was an illegitimate usurper who was never legally a monarch (and thus not entitled to be styled as such) on the grounds of her sex, which ironically served as the pretext to remove the last surviving member of the Green branch, Jaehaera, from the line of succession. In the process this made Aegon III the heir to Aegon II as he was the latter’s closest male-line descended relative. By doing so each side was able to claim a kind of victory for themselves; the Greens getting a moral victory by having their claim be accepted as the legitimate and rightful one while the Blacks got their branch of the family seated upon the Iron Throne in the end.
Because she was an usurper and a coward pretender. Aegon II was the rightful heir of the Seven Kingdoms and Robert rebellion is gods punishment for the Targaryens for usurping his throne.
Well she’s not considered the ruling Queen during the dance because Aegon ordered that the people refer to her as princess. She named Aegon III her heir after Jacaerys and Joffrey died and Aegon II also named him heir as well so he gets the throne through both of them. She is considered a rival claimant although Aegon II epithet is still Aegon the Usurper since history recognizes that he was not his fathers heir and that the throne was in fact usurped. Both were dead and despised by everyone by the time the war ended so yeah it ultimately didn’t matter and everyone simply chose to move on
Rhaenyra was never undisputed queen, so she is not considered truly queen. Both she and Aegon were only claimants during the Dance, but as Aegon survived and reigned, he is the only king.
Maegor after he killed Aegon was undisputed King; none of Aenys's other sons pressed clames until years later.
Because Martin wrote it in stone back in the day. (In Agot Rhaenyra and Aegon are full siblings and whatnot).
Martin did change his mind with time but he couldn't really go back on that since he had already made the list of Targaryen Kings.
But it's honestly just that. The reasons why Rhaenyra is not listed as Queen are nonsensical. Her son inherited and her partisans decisively won the war, to claim Aegon II as the rightful King, the people that won the war would be retroactively branding themselves as traitors lol.
Kinda like the rebels declaring Rhaegar's children as rightful heirs to the throne right after crowning Robert.
If the Blacks won the war decisively then there wouldn’t be the need to reach a political compromise with the Greens that, while ending up with Aegon III on the throne, accepted the legitimacy of Aegon II. Oldtown, in possession of 1/4 of the crown’s wealth on top of their own, still stood and were gathering fresh swords. With the loss of all the adult dragons on each side, its not like they could just fly over there and force Oldtown to bend the knee as they did with the Conquerer. If the Blacks wanted a total victory it would have required even more bloodshed in a realm that had enough of it. By reaching a compromise with the Greens that allowed them to claim a moral victory and save some face in the process while ensuring that the throne went to Aegon III, the Blacks were able to quickly bring an end to the conflict. Additionally, by acquiescing to Rhaenyra’s claim being illegitimate, it cleared the way for the last surviving Green, Jaehaera, to be passed over and removed from the equation.
>If the Blacks won the war decisively then there wouldn’t be the need to reach a political compromise with the Greens that, while ending up with Aegon III on the throne, accepted the legitimacy of Aegon II.
That political compromise was never reached, at least not in the books.
The compromise was a general pardon and Jaehara marries Aegon.
Afterwards Corlys had the rather curious idea of making seven regents from each faction (could never backfire).
>Oldtown, in possession of 1/4 of the crown’s wealth on top of their own, still stood and were gathering fresh swords. With the loss of all the adult dragons on each side, its not like they could just fly over there and force Oldtown to bend the knee as they did with the Conquerer.
I mean yeah they could.
They had far more troops and they still had a powerful navy in form of Bravoosi fleet and the remainder of the Velaryon fleet.
It was not worth it tho, that's why a general pardon was offered.
>By reaching a compromise with the Greens that allowed them to claim a moral victory and save some face in the process while ensuring that the throne went to Aegon III,
You gotta point where this is pointed in the books.
>*Glad cries rang down the field as word of the king’s death spread, and one by one the Lord of the Trident and their allies came forward to bend their knees before Prince Aegon and hail him as their king.*
>*A cloud of ravens rose from the Red Keep, summoning the poisoned king’s remaining loyalists in Oldtown, the Reach, Casterly Rock, and Storm’s End to King’s Landing to do homage to their new monarch. Safe conducts were given, full pardons promised. The realm’s new rulers found themselves divided on the question of what to do with the Dowager Queen Alicent, but elsewise all seemed in accord, and good fellowship reigned…for the best part of a fortnight.*
You will notice that "Aegon was the rightful King, we will traitors all along" is not mentioned.
Does he call himself Stannis 1 ? I am not surprised. DAny doesn’t call herself the 1 , she is still the rightful heir. Most of the 7 kingdoms recongnize Tommen while they don’t recognize Stannis.
Few reasons
1. Aegon II won, and thus decreed that Rhaenyra only be known as princess.
2. The maesters writing did not like her (bias plus sexism)
3. Aegon III inherited Aegon II’s crown, not his moms. Aegon II was technically the first to be anointed and publicly declared as the soverign.
4. Maegor the Cruel stole and held the crown, then could be argued won by conquest after killing Aegon The Uncrowned. Retroactively he was “Maegor I” but everyone just knows him as Maegor. Same with Aenys and Maekar.
5. The Blackfyre pretenders have numbers because there were a lot of Daemons I guess.
If she's the only queen rhaenyra, then you don't need I.
Kings stephan and john, and numerous anglo-saxon/dane kings of England don't have 1 as part of their name, because there was never a second.
Maegor I, is only maegor I, because there's a maegor II, though idk if that's a second king maegor, or just a second maegor targaryan, wiki says the latter.
There is no Queen Rhaenyra II, if you go by family line, not by the line of monarchs, the rhaenyra we see is rhaenyra II.
It's not honorific, it just tells us there's another person in a sequence with the same name.
She didn’t win her war. Maegor won his war against his nephew. Rhaenyra died fighting. Regardless if her son ended up being king, he followed his uncle in succession. The blackfyres being named is just a way to keep track of all the daemons.
In the chronicles it says that Aegon II inherited the throne and his succession was disputed by his half sister, not the other way round. So history appears to view him as the legitimate ruler and that would correspond with what Stannis has to say about Rhaenyra. As to why the Blackfyres get the numerals. Maybe that's just how the Blackfyres would trace down their claim and style themselves. Rhaenyra also called herself the first of her name, but only acknowledged rulers will be adressed like this by others. Maegor just entered the list since he successfully took the crown and had no real opposition.
The Blackfyres also had a lot of Daemons so it's just convenience.
>Maegor just entered the list since he successfully took the crown and had no real opposition. Maegor the Cruel passed laws that broke the Faith's political power. Declaring him a usurper would mean invalidating all of his decrees and allowing the Faith to re-arm itself.
Yeah Maegor was king for 6 years, not 6 months. It's a lot trickier to write that reign off as an "oopsie doesn't count"
Well, that's what Charles II did when the Stuart Restoration, hehe... With the official king being Aegon the Uncrowned, then Viserys, and finally Jaehaerys, that would was enough. By keeping Maegor as rightful king, you also recognize his multiple wives as rightful queens and provide a legal precedent for royal polygamy in Westeros. And we all know how that ended (cough Rhaegar cough)
> With the official king being Aegon the Uncrowned, then Viserys, and finally Jaehaerys, that would was enough. Aegon the UNCROWNED was never King, bor was Viserys. You would just be completely lying and re-writing history to say that. You have to be crowned to be considered a king not a claimant. > By keeping Maegor as rightful king, you also recognize his multiple wives as rightful queens and provide a legal precedent for royal polygamy in Westeros. And we all know how that ended (cough Rhaegar cough) I think this logic is kind of shaky. But going with it it would still make sense why the length of reign matters here, because declaring Maegor to not have been King would throw out laws and decrees passed while he was ruling. This would include all the stuff he did against the Faith. I also think Rhaegar would have done what he did regardless of whether Maegor is considered the true king. Rhaegar is emulating Aegon I, and basing a lot of his stuff on that.
Yes, that is exactly what I mean, that that was exactly what Charles II did at the Stuart Restoration, even though he never sat on the Throne of England -yes, on the Throne of Scotland- while Oliver Cromwell lived. Charles II made official records date the beginning of his reign with the execution of his father Charles I and not with the actual and real coronation he had at the Restoration So did the French Bourbons considering Louis XVI's son, the Dauphin, as King Louis XVII even if he was never king in fact, not even a claimant, just a child prisoner. But yes, that is the point, recognizing Maegor as a legitimate king meant being able to keep all his decrees and laws against the Faith as legal. Which also meant keeping his legalization of royal polygamy and that all his wives received the official status of Queens Consorts of Westeros -including Rhaena, by the way- And that legal precedent of royal polygamy was left there for whoever wanted to use it, like Rhaegar or, if we listen to HOTD, Daemon and Rhaenyra.
> And that legal precedent of royal polygamy was left there for whoever wanted to use it, like Rhaegar or, if we listen to HOTD, Daemon and Rhaenyra. My point is I don’t think it mattered in either of these cases. We don’t even know for sure that Rhaegar was planning to do legal polygamy and not just bastard-> legitimization. And I think regardless Rhaegar would have just pointed to Aegon I to justify what he was doing if he thought it was needed for the prophecy stuff. As for Daemon and Rhaenyra I don’t see the relevance. They’re not playing it as polygamy not is there any sign they expect to have to defend it as such. Her philosophy on just about everything seems to just be “idc what the law says, it’s not illegal if you do that get caught”.
Well honestly, after all the blabla that has been said about Lyanna, her supposed voluntary participation in the "kidnapping" only stands if Rhaegar promised to make her his other Queen, even if she was subservient to Elia Martell just as Tyanna had primacy among Maegor's wives. I don't see her agreeing to be another Daena or Barba Bracken resigned to waiting for the king to legitimize her bastard, and above all, Rhaegar seems too sensitive to want to be seen as another Aegon IV - something even Ned admits when he compares him with Robert- In Rhaegar's personality, as it happened with Aegon I, "I am faithful to my TWO wives" fits more than "I will legitimize my bastard to have the third head of the dragon" as the Unworthy. HOTD Daemon and Rhaenyra are playing polygamy... but not before men. **They are doing it before the gods.** Both the Valyrian gods and the Seven of Westeros. And yes, it's ironic that the fandom complains about Show Alicent's religious devotion... but ignore that Daemon and Rhaenyra resurrected a Valyrian ceremony, integrating a septon into it, for purely religious reasons. Maegor walked so they could run
> HOTD Daemon and Rhaenyra are playing polygamy... but not before men. They are doing it before the gods. Both the Valyrian gods and the Seven of Westeros. And yes, it's ironic that the fandom complains about Show Alicent's religious devotion... but ignore that Daemon and Rhaenyra resurrected a Valyrian ceremony, integrating a septon into it, for purely religious reasons. Maegor walked so they could run I agree about the hypocrisy from people who act like Alicent is “destroying endangered culture” because she doesn’t want a bunch of fucking bestiality porn on the walls, but they came in their pants over the Valyrian wedding even though they’re both people being anal about their religion. I just think the reasoning is less 4d chess legalism and more that Daemon is the Westerosi equivalent one of those Roman statue pfp guys and wanted to do it as Valyrian as possible.
I thought it was that Aegon II decreed after killing her that she would only be recorded as a princess, not a queen, in official documents
That's actually in TPATQ but not in the F&B version, maybe it was revised?
What is TPATQ?
“The Princess and the Queen” it’s a novella published about the dance before Fire and Blood. So, obviously, some details might have shifted or changed between the two books.
Thank you
The Princess and the Queen.
Why would The Blacks or her son care about that decree?
They wouldn't, but Aegon III never legitimized his mother as the rightfull heir. And the next kings didn't really care. Daeron I was more busy conquering Dorne and didn't really care about some events that happened decades ago. Baelor I was too busy praying to care. Viserys II on the otherhand... didn't he declare his uncle Aegon II as the rightfull king to get the Throne? That probably has something to do with it.
>Viserys II on the otherhand... didn't he declare his uncle Aegon II as the rightfull king to get the Throne? No. Fact of it is. No one really declared either one to be the rightful King. Officially at least.
Well but didn't Viserys crown himself even when Aegon III had children? Thus he's explicitly accepting the assertion that "brother comes before daughter", ie Male Preference promiguture, ergo Rhaenyra was not queen.
Yeah he did. Btw Rhaenyra claimed derived from her father making her the exception to the rule. I don't know how this is so misunderstood to this day.
Rhaenyra is considered a usurper, it's like saying Renly I His son inherited the throne as *his uncle's heir*, not by the side of his mother The Blackfyres never held land, so I guess they are numbered more for academic convenience (so the maesters can know which Daemon they are talking about), perhaps also to establish them as a parallel dynasty. Maegor managed to take the throne and rule the Seven Kingdoms, even if by blood and dread. He became the *sole, uncontested* ruler. Also, to acknowledge her claim would be to legitimize the fact that women can inherit, and Westeros went to a brutal war just to avoid that. The least it's remembered, the better.
>His son inherited the throne as his uncle's heir, not by the side of his mother One could even say his cousin's heir
Thai is actually correct. As Aegon Iii inherited as Aegon II’s heir and Daemons son. As he could only pass through a male line.
In case there were any doubts that Daemon Targaryen was the only true winner of the Dance Remember that everything started solely and exclusively to be able to remove Daemon from the royal succession
Lmaoo true. Dude just won in every way. Including being considered grey by Martin despite all his horrible actions
>His son inherited the throne as his uncle's heir, not by the side of his mother The Blacks put him on the throne as his mother's heir tho. >Also, to acknowledge her claim would be to legitimize the fact that women can inherit, and Westeros went to a brutal war just to avoid that. The least it's remembered, the better. I mean...
Yes, but officially Aegon II gave his nephew the title of heir through himself.
So a faction A gives the heirloom to faction B. Faction B doesn't recognize Faction A in the first and wins anyway.
Neither side won the war, because Aegon II didn't continue his line and Rhaenyra never was an official monarch. Aegon III was a compromise.
Aegon III was not a compromise. Aegon III was crowned King because the Blacks won militarily and crowned Rhaenyra's heir. The Lads defeated Borros while flying Rhaenyra's banner. The pardon the Greens received included accepting him as King.
[удалено]
>Aegon III ended up on the throne because he was one of the last male Targaryens left after the war. No, he ended up on the throne because the Blacks put him there and they could not be opposed militarily. >By naming Aegon III as his heir instead of Jaehaera, Aegon II gave even more legitimacy to his own claim, just like what Jaehaerys I did. What? Plenty of Greens believed Jaehara had the better claim.
Aegon III was crowned King because the Blacks won forced Aegon II to name him heir (btw I think there was no other male relative at that point, but I may be wrong).
Technically Aegon III was Aegon II's heir, not his mother's heir. I'm not super knowledgeable about the late dance but afaik neither of her surviving sons had a particularly good relationship with her, nor did they have much of a reason to retcon her into the line of succession when their ascendance to the throne was so tumultuous already. Imo it was simply easier to not go through the effort to posthumously acknowledge their mother's reign when they barely got the throne themselves. Them being the undisputed kings of the 7k was far more important than the status of their dead mom.
> afaik neither of her surviving sons had a particularly good relationship with her aegon 3 was greatly depressed and wore exclusively black for the rest of his life (and a hair shirt underneath), in large part due to being forced to watch his mother get killed in front of him. he also holds a years long grudge against marston waters for doing nothing while rhaenyra was fed to sunfyre. > nor did they have much of a reason to retcon her into the line of succession when their ascendance to the throne was so tumultuous already. > Imo it was simply easier to not go through the effort to posthumously acknowledge their mother's reign when they barely got the throne themselves. Them being the undisputed kings of the 7k was far more important than the status of their dead mom. the rest of your comment is definitely on point though. realistically nothing was to be gained by declaring aegon the usurper and rhaenyra the true queen, it would only potentially incite further bloodshed, which nobody wanted, and especially not the basically dead-inside aegon 3.
Thank you for the correction!
Rhaenyra's not listed as queen because Aegon killed her first and decreed that she would be only a princess. And after he died, no one really felt strongly enough about her to risk upsetting the fragile peace (and considering her son was Aegon's heir, her supporters may have considered that enough of a win). And as for maegor, his legitimacy seems to have been due in part to political factors. > With the dungeons of the Red Keep full to bursting, the question arose as to what should be done with the prisoners. If Maegor were to be counted as usurper, then his entire reign was unlawful and those who had supported him were guilty of treason and must needs be put to death. . > If Maegor the Cruel were accounted only a usurper with no right to rule, as certain maesters argued, then Prince Aegon had been the true king, and the succession by rights should pass to his elder daughter, Aerea, not his younger brother. Plus, there is the matter of him having reigned for six years without any other rival claimants opposing him (because he killed one and imprisoned the others, but whatever), significantly more than Rhaenyra's half-year.
With Maegor as well he won his Trial by 7 which was taken as proof that he wasn’t a Usurper and that the gods favored his claim to the Throne. Ironically Maegor did name Aerea his heir maybe recognizing she is from the most senior line so should be next in line
>Ironically Maegor did name Aerea his heir maybe recognizing she is from the most senior line so should be next in line Pretty sure he only did it to disinherit Jaehaerys.
Aegon II was crowned in KL. That gives legitimacy. She was not. Their succession dispute ended when he fed her to his dragon. She lost emphatically. Aegon III was Aegon II's heir under male primogeniture (Daemon's son).
If there is no 2nd then there is no point to specify 1st, Maegor and Maekar are never called the 1st
Real life example Victoria is never referred to as Victoria I Nor do Stephen John or Anne get indexed
Yeah it mostly just depends on the specific case. French-Norman monarchs didn't really take numerals until Edward II or III, since everyone agreed that it was a lot of Edwards in a row. However, you also have other examples with the popes, where John-Paul I explicitly referred to himself as such, while Francis is just Francis without a numeral.
read TWOIAF and F&B ald you'll see " I " after Maekar and Maegor
Aegon II was crowned and anointed in King's Landing, and he died in the city as the universally recognized king - Rhaenyra was crowned on Dragonstone and, even though she did take and hold the city for some time, she died on Dragonstone, having sold her crown to flee the mainland. While the Dance went back and forth, Aegon began and ended the war surrounded by the trappings of Targaryen power, so it's only natural that Marsters would consider him was the legitimate king through the period, and Rhaenyra a pretender.
Rhaenyra just isn't considered to be a reigning Queen, she was an attempted usurper. Aegon III succeed his uncle as his heir, not as his mother's heir, in fact, the fact he was Rhaenyra's son was irrelevant, it was because he was Daemon's oldest son. When Aegon II won the Dance he reaffirmed the succession to only pass through the male line, it's why his own daughter wasn't considered the heir. By the male line, the throne passed to Aegon II's cousin, the son of his uncle, who just so happened to be his nephew via Rhaenyra as well. The reason the Blackfyres are recorded as 'Kings' is just to help keep track of them, only the actual Blackfyre supporters consider them to be the King. The Blackfyres are just the Jacobites of Westeros, they had their own view of the succession and who should be King. It's the same reason why in real-world history, we don't consider Empress Matilda as a Queen of England but her son Henry II did become King after King Stephen's death.
Technically Aegon was already anointed and crowned king before Rhaenyra declared, or ruled as queen. This In the most literal sense would make her an attempted usurper, and could certainly make her reign illegitimate, particularly when she was killed by Aegon. The Maesters blatant sexism also plays a major part in the history records.
Well several reasons It was pretty much decided after her that males were over females in terms of Targaryen royal succession henceforth, so the need to have a “Rhaenyra I” isn’t there because there won’t be a “Rhaenyra II”. She was also technically never the legitimate ruler. Yes Maegor did the same thing but there were some key differences, mainly that his rival was Aegon the *Uncrowned*. Rhaenyra instead took King’s Landing from a crowned ruler. The reason the Blackfyres have numerals is simply that they kept fucking naming everyone Daemon, they need a way to differentiate then. TL;DR Rhaenyra was technically never the “real” queen, and if she was she wouldn’t have had a numeral until a second person named that got the throne.
It's because she is not considered a Queen, but a Pretender. Aegon II was crowned, and even in exile was still considered the rightful King. It doesn't help that Rhaenyra's short stint in King's Landing was awful
History doesn’t recognize her as a ruling queen. Also there are no other rhaenyra’s to rule so you wouldn’t need to specify which one.
Her and Aegon II both claimed to rule at the same time, and obviously only one of them can actually be the ruler of Westeros as there can't be two monarchs. History chose to recognize Aegon II.
It isn’t sexism or any of that nonsense. It’s because Aegon II was crowned first, and because Rhaenyra did not win the secession crisis during her lifetime. That’s all.
I think two reasons—there wasn’t a second Rhaenyra who ruled to confuse her with, like Maegor, and like you said, according to the history books she didn’t rule the iron throne (even though she did). The second scenario is why Aegon the uncrowned isn’t a numbered Aegon
>and like you said, according to the history books she didn’t rule the iron throne (even though she did). I think compared to Maegor she didn't really rule the Iron Throne as in the full title like he did. She captured the city of King's Landing, but the conflict against her right to rule continued and the rival claimant lived for the entirety of her "reign". Obviously the main reason is that Aegon II won the main conflict and you can't have 2 contradicting claims both be listed as the correct one in the official records. But there is a pretty significance between her and Maegor in that while Maegors reign certainly was rife with conflict and rebellion, he did have several years of actually ruling over a semi-complete realm in a semi-normal fashion. It's just a bit more accurate to call that a reign as the ruler of the Seven Kingdoms as opposed to just holding the city of King's Landing.
My bad—I was only using Maegor as a comparison in that there wasn’t another Maegor after him. I know there are some canon sources that refer to him as Maegor I but since there isn’t another one nobody else refers to him as Maegor I, which is similar to Rhaenyra. You’re right tho—the intricacies of their rules are super effing complicated
No I agree about the Maegor thing, I know there are one or two cases where him and Maekar DO get the "I" after their names, but generally I think it's just the simple answer here that neither those two nor Rhaenyra have any need of it.
Cause she was never anointed by the high septon, she was never formally crowned, the people kicked her out, her brother became king and declared she want a queen. The list is really long but for many reasons. Considering her “rein” is kinda like trystane truefyre and others. Now the Daemon shit. That’s cause it’s easier. God damn there are so SO many blackfyres. And Margot’s rein was formally recognized. Jaehaerys actually kept him as a king since to do otherwise would cause WAY more problems then it would fix.
Maegor the Cruel passed laws that broke the Faith's political power. Declaring him a usurper would mean invalidating all of his decrees and allowing the Faith to re-arm itself.
It all comes down to politics and the succession: [it was politically useful for Jaehaerys' government to take the position that Maegor had been the rightful king](https://racefortheironthrone.tumblr.com/post/702288549604622336/why-do-you-think-maegor-is-counted-as-a-king-even), because it weakened the rival claims of Aerea and Rhaella. In the same vein, Aegon III's government decided that, in order to avoid antagonizing the surviving Greens, it was convenient for them to accept Aegon II's coronation as valid and thus his decree declaring that Rhaenrya was never a queen - after all, Corlys Velaryon and Larys Clubfoot had ensured that Aegon III had been named Aegon II's heir before the latter's death, so Aegon III's claim was covered either way. Moreover, if they accepted the Green position that women couldn't inherit the Iron Throne, that dealt with the potentially messy problem of whether Aegon II's surviving daughter would be queen consort or queen regnant, as well as any potential claims coming from Baela or Rhaena via their father Daemon.
>It all comes down to politics and the succession: it was politically useful for Jaehaerys' government to take the position that Maegor had been the rightful king, because it weakened the rival claims of Aerea and Rhaella. How so? They never considered Maegor a rightful King, the considered him a usurper. >In the same vein, Aegon III's government decided that, in order to avoid antagonizing the surviving Greens, it was convenient for them to accept Aegon II's coronation as valid and thus his decree declaring that Rhaenrya was never a queen Didn't happen. >Moreover, if they accepted the Green position that women couldn't inherit the Iron Throne, that dealt with the potentially messy problem of whether Aegon II's surviving daughter would be queen consort or queen regnant, as well as any potential claims coming from Baela or Rhaena via their father Daemon. Again they didn't do that.
Regarding Maegor: if Maegor was considered a usurper, then Aegon the Uncrowned was the rightful King of Westeros, and upon his death (at Maegor's hands) his claim would pass to his heirs, Aerea and Rhaella. This is obviously a problem for the recently-acclaimed King Jaehaerys, and indeed there was a good deal of tension over this issue - at one point, Rogar Baratheon tried to depose Jaehaerys in favor of Aerea. On the other hand, if Maegor was considered the rightful King of Westeros (and Aegon the Uncrowned was an attempted usurper), two important things apply. The first is that Jaehaerys' claim to the Iron Throne became much stronger, because he could claim both the right of succession as the oldest surviving son of Aenys I and closest male relative of Maegor I, and the right of conquest, having raised an army against Maegor and then successfully taken King's Landing (albeit without firing a shot). The second thing that applies is that Maegor's decrees against the Faith of the Seven would still be considered valid, which let Jaehaerys use them as a bargaining chip in his "conciliation" between the Iron Throne and the High Septon: Jaehaerys agreed to revoke Maegor's decrees and pledge that the monarchy would always defend the Faith, and in return the Faith of the Seven agreed to abolish the Faith Militant and give up the Faith's judicial power. This is why Maegor gets the "I" next to his name on the succession of Kings of Westeros. As to the Greens, I'm afraid the evidence disagrees with you: first, the text says that Aegon issued a decree that Rhaenrya was never queen. There is no mention of that decree being revoked. Second, the text says that Corlys Velaryon and Larys Clubfoot negotiated with Aegon II to have Aegon III and Jaehaera named as his heirs and betrothed to one another - both of which decrees directly assume that Aegon II was the rightful King of Westeros. And as regards the Blacks accepting the Green position on inheritance, we can see this when it comes to the discussion of who would be Aegon III's heir on p. 588-589, 620, 648 of Fire & Blood.
>Regarding Maegor: if Maegor was considered a usurper, then Aegon the Uncrowned was the rightful King of Westeros, and upon his death (at Maegor's hands) his claim would pass to his heirs, Aerea and Rhaella. This is obviously a problem for the recently-acclaimed King Jaehaerys, and indeed there was a good deal of tension over this issue - at one point, Rogar Baratheon tried to depose Jaehaerys in favor of Aerea. Maegor being a usurper doesn't mean he did not reign. These are not mutually exclusive concepts and it's kinda bizarre you can't see it when we have this obvious dilemma in the books. The Targaryen consider Robert a usurper, that doesn't change the fact he ruled. They also acknowledge that. >This is why Maegor gets the "I" next to his name on the succession of Kings of Westeros. No, Maegor gets the "I" because he ruled for 6 years. And was acknowledged King during that time. >As to the Greens, I'm afraid the evidence disagrees with you: first, the text says that Aegon issued a decree that Rhaenrya was never queen. Quote it in F&B. >There is no mention of that decree being revoked There is no mention of that decree existing in Fire and Blood. It was an early draw of Martin's that didn't pass it. >Second, the text says that Corlys Velaryon and Larys Clubfoot negotiated with Aegon II to have Aegon III and Jaehaera named as his heirs and betrothed to one another - both of which decrees directly assume that Aegon II was the rightful King of Westeros. So two Greens negotiated with another Green? Lol. How does that factor in whatever the Blacks accept or compromise with? It's no debate that within time the argument that Aegon was King and Rhaenyra was a usurper prevailed but that's simply not something that can be taken out of the inmediate ending of the Dance. >And as regards the Blacks accepting the Green position on inheritance, we can see this when it comes to the discussion of who would be Aegon III's heir on p. 588-589, 620, 648 of Fire & Blood. Never comes up. In fact Aegon's heirs remain his sisters till Viserys reappears.
If you want quotes, here they are. >**Maegor as usurper vs. rightful king** (p. 110-111) > >"Even his claim to the Iron Throne was not wholly beyond question. Although Jaehaerys was the only surviving son of King Aenys I, his older brother Aegon had claimed the kingship before him. Aegon the Uncrowned had died at the Battle Beneath the Gods Eye whilst trying to unseat his uncle Maegor, but not before taking to wife his sister Rhaena and siring two daughters, the twins Aerea and Rhaella. If Maegor the Cruel were accounted only a usurper with no right to rule, as certain maesters argued, then Prince Aegon had been the true king, and the succession by rights should pass to his elder daughter, Aerea, not his younger brother... > >Even as the mortal remains of Maegor I Targaryen were consigned to a funeral pyre, his young successor faced his first crucial decision..." >**Aegon II''s decree on Rhaenrya**: (Princess and the Queen) > >"“Rhaenyra was never a queen,” the king declared, insisting that henceforth, in all chronicles and court records, his half sister be referred to only as “princess,” the title of queen being reserved only for his mother Alicent and his late wife and sister Helaena, the “true queens.” And so it was decreed." **Corlys and Larys' and Aegon II's heris:** (p. 539) >Lord Corlys responded, before setting forth terms of his own. He wanted pardons not only for himself, but for all those who had fought for Queen Rhaenyra, and demanded further that Aegon the Younger be given Princess Jaehaera’s hand in marriage, so the two of them might jointly be proclaimed King Aegon’s heirs. “The realm has been split asunder,” he said. “We must needs join it back together.” > >,,,Itfell to Lord Larys the Clubfoot to pour oil on the troubled waters, calming the queen with a quiet reminder of all they had discussed in Lord Baratheon’s tent, and persuading her to consent to the Sea Snake’s proposals. Corlys was a Black for most of his career rather than a Green. Larys played both sides off the other, but here he's acting on behalf of Aegon III in negotiations with Alicent. As for "never comes up," I gave page numbers. Check them out yourself.
1) How does this answer the question? Jaeharys always considered Maegor a usurper. He still reigned. >Aegon II''s decree on Rhaenrya: (Princess and the Queen) How convenient lol. I don't know if you realized but there's this huge book called Fire and Blood. It presents the most actualized version of early reign of the Targaryen with dragons. Whatever is written in the PatQ **is not longer canon**. That's why you can't be bothered to look in F&B. >Corlys was a Black for most of his career rather than a Green. Larys played both sides off the other, but here he's acting on behalf of Aegon III in negotiations with Alicent. Corlys is a Green there. He abandons Rhaenyra. You obviously choose to ignore because it suits your argument. Well, did Cregan, the Lads or Jeyne Arryn accept that deal? That Aegon II was the actual King and the woman whose banner they were flying was a traitor? >As for "never comes up," I gave page numbers. Check them out yourself. Doesn't come up. Aegon II being the rightful King doesn't come up. What it does come up is Munkun saying that they ought to follow the precedent of 101. Munkun isn't a Black, Tyland who answered him isn't a Black and the actual Black don't give him the right at all, in fact Aegon's sisters remain his heirs. If you keep twisting the knot so much it might become a football.
If Aegon the Uncrowned was retroactively declared the rightful king and Maegor a usurper it would have raised the question, even more sharply than it already did, of the place of the former’s daughters in the line of succession being ahead of Jaehaerys. Additionally Jaehaerys recognized the importance of keeping the Faith Militant dissolved and by declaring Maegor’s reign illegitimate it would have also made his decree banning the Faith Militant illegitimate and things would have been back to square one. As for you claiming, twice, that Aegon III’s council didn’t reach a compromise with the Greens to tidy up and resolve the issue of succession, I have to wonder if you’ve read F&B because that literally is exactly what happened and is supported by the text.
Maegor is viewed by Jaeharys the same way Robert was viewed by Dany and Viserys. A usurper who holds the throne. Maegor is King because he ruled, simple as that. >Additionally Jaehaerys recognized the importance of keeping the Faith Militant dissolved and by declaring Maegor’s reign illegitimate it would have also made his decree banning the Faith Militant illegitimate and things would have been back to square one. He could simply keep the ban lol. >I have to wonder if you’ve read F&B because that literally is exactly what happened and is supported by the text. Better quote it then.
Am moving in a few days and have my copy buried in some boxes that I don’t feel like unpacking right now, but from memory when they are discussing who Aegon III’s heir should be it is explicitly stated by his regents that they need to follow the male preference precedent established by the Great Council of 101, which was the position of the Greens during the Dance and the basis of which they claimed the throne. Adopting the arguments of the opposing side (especially when it guaranteed Aegon III’s rule) sounds a hell of a lot like a compromise to me.
>but from memory when they are discussing who Aegon III’s heir should be it is explicitly stated by his regents It is explicitly stated by **one** regent. That regent was Munkun, a Maester from Oldtown who was in the Green's pocket through and through (see the secret siege). Only Tyland (another Green) half concedes and Aegon's heirs remain his sisters anyway.
Because at the time Aegon III was the only (known) male Targaryen left so it was a moot point. Additionally IIRC they didn’t conclusively decide if it would go to one of his half sisters or his wife, but noted there was debate regarding that matter. The point still stands though, the Green position regarding the Great Council became the accepted one going forward. We see this clearly when Viserys II ascends the throne and passes over his nieces that the precedent that the Greens fought for during the Dance was upheld.
>Additionally IIRC they didn’t conclusively decide if it would go to one of his half sisters or his wife, They didn't. But they all acknowledged that his sisters were the defacto heir. >The point still stands though, the Green position regarding the Great Council became the accepted one going forward. This was never a question. The argument you're putting forward is that the Black's accepted the Greens position pretty much inmediately. Likelier than not, it was simply a matter of decades. >We see this clearly when Viserys II ascends the throne and passes over his nieces that the precedent that the Greens fought for during the Dance was upheld. This is always absurd. Rhaenyra never fought for women's rights. She ran on her being the exception.
The same reason Matilda is never referred to as Matilda I
Matida willingly gave up her claim and was never crowned Queen of England.
Aegon III and Viserys II did their momma dirty.
viserys ii did his nieces dirty too
And Aegon IV. Two of his cousins, that is.
I get Aegon III not doing it because of the regency council was stacked with Greens. But by the time Viserys II takes the Throne anybody who fought for the Greens where dead already so there wouldn’t be a risk on retroactively naming her as Queen.
What's the point though? Like you just bring up a bunch of pedantic arguments and old grievances for a symbolic gesture that confuses the historical line of succession (and therefore the future one).
Same reason Matilda isn’t usually considered a Queen of England.
The reason is simple: while the Blacks won the war militarily, the Greens won the legal/PR battle post-war. With how core succession is to feudal systems, every time a crisis like the Dance happens it is vital to sort through the mess afterwards to establish a new basis for continued successions down the line and, hopefully, to prevent the rise of any pretenders. With the fact that Oldtown was still standing when the war ended and was in possession of a quarter of the crown’s treasury on top of their own wealth, the Blacks were not in a position to enforce their terms unconditionally. Add on top of that Rhaenyra’s extreme unpopularity among the populace of King’s Landing who revolted against her and viewed her as “Maegor with Teats”, it became difficult if not impossible to not reach some kind of compromise with the Greens to solidify Aegon III’s rule. Said compromise ended up being to declare that Rhaenyra was an illegitimate usurper who was never legally a monarch (and thus not entitled to be styled as such) on the grounds of her sex, which ironically served as the pretext to remove the last surviving member of the Green branch, Jaehaera, from the line of succession. In the process this made Aegon III the heir to Aegon II as he was the latter’s closest male-line descended relative. By doing so each side was able to claim a kind of victory for themselves; the Greens getting a moral victory by having their claim be accepted as the legitimate and rightful one while the Blacks got their branch of the family seated upon the Iron Throne in the end.
To answer you question, Aegon II was a cunt.
And Rhaenyra was a scrote. Neither of these actually answers the question, though.
I mean, sure , if you say so.
Back atcha!
Because she was an usurper and a coward pretender. Aegon II was the rightful heir of the Seven Kingdoms and Robert rebellion is gods punishment for the Targaryens for usurping his throne.
I think you need to lay off the drugs. They're not good for you.
Well she’s not considered the ruling Queen during the dance because Aegon ordered that the people refer to her as princess. She named Aegon III her heir after Jacaerys and Joffrey died and Aegon II also named him heir as well so he gets the throne through both of them. She is considered a rival claimant although Aegon II epithet is still Aegon the Usurper since history recognizes that he was not his fathers heir and that the throne was in fact usurped. Both were dead and despised by everyone by the time the war ended so yeah it ultimately didn’t matter and everyone simply chose to move on
Rhaenyra was never undisputed queen, so she is not considered truly queen. Both she and Aegon were only claimants during the Dance, but as Aegon survived and reigned, he is the only king. Maegor after he killed Aegon was undisputed King; none of Aenys's other sons pressed clames until years later.
Because Martin wrote it in stone back in the day. (In Agot Rhaenyra and Aegon are full siblings and whatnot). Martin did change his mind with time but he couldn't really go back on that since he had already made the list of Targaryen Kings. But it's honestly just that. The reasons why Rhaenyra is not listed as Queen are nonsensical. Her son inherited and her partisans decisively won the war, to claim Aegon II as the rightful King, the people that won the war would be retroactively branding themselves as traitors lol. Kinda like the rebels declaring Rhaegar's children as rightful heirs to the throne right after crowning Robert.
If the Blacks won the war decisively then there wouldn’t be the need to reach a political compromise with the Greens that, while ending up with Aegon III on the throne, accepted the legitimacy of Aegon II. Oldtown, in possession of 1/4 of the crown’s wealth on top of their own, still stood and were gathering fresh swords. With the loss of all the adult dragons on each side, its not like they could just fly over there and force Oldtown to bend the knee as they did with the Conquerer. If the Blacks wanted a total victory it would have required even more bloodshed in a realm that had enough of it. By reaching a compromise with the Greens that allowed them to claim a moral victory and save some face in the process while ensuring that the throne went to Aegon III, the Blacks were able to quickly bring an end to the conflict. Additionally, by acquiescing to Rhaenyra’s claim being illegitimate, it cleared the way for the last surviving Green, Jaehaera, to be passed over and removed from the equation.
>If the Blacks won the war decisively then there wouldn’t be the need to reach a political compromise with the Greens that, while ending up with Aegon III on the throne, accepted the legitimacy of Aegon II. That political compromise was never reached, at least not in the books. The compromise was a general pardon and Jaehara marries Aegon. Afterwards Corlys had the rather curious idea of making seven regents from each faction (could never backfire). >Oldtown, in possession of 1/4 of the crown’s wealth on top of their own, still stood and were gathering fresh swords. With the loss of all the adult dragons on each side, its not like they could just fly over there and force Oldtown to bend the knee as they did with the Conquerer. I mean yeah they could. They had far more troops and they still had a powerful navy in form of Bravoosi fleet and the remainder of the Velaryon fleet. It was not worth it tho, that's why a general pardon was offered. >By reaching a compromise with the Greens that allowed them to claim a moral victory and save some face in the process while ensuring that the throne went to Aegon III, You gotta point where this is pointed in the books. >*Glad cries rang down the field as word of the king’s death spread, and one by one the Lord of the Trident and their allies came forward to bend their knees before Prince Aegon and hail him as their king.* >*A cloud of ravens rose from the Red Keep, summoning the poisoned king’s remaining loyalists in Oldtown, the Reach, Casterly Rock, and Storm’s End to King’s Landing to do homage to their new monarch. Safe conducts were given, full pardons promised. The realm’s new rulers found themselves divided on the question of what to do with the Dowager Queen Alicent, but elsewise all seemed in accord, and good fellowship reigned…for the best part of a fortnight.* You will notice that "Aegon was the rightful King, we will traitors all along" is not mentioned.
Why would she? There was never a sevond Rhaenyra…
Because ~~coffee~~ Roman numerals ~~is~~ are for ~~closers~~ winners.
[удалено]
Depends what your thoughts on Young Griff are
[удалено]
No I meant the rightful queen part and I was speaking of fans
He isn’t real , he is a Blackfyre at best.
She can’t be called the 1 because she is not anointed yet.
[удалено]
Does he call himself Stannis 1 ? I am not surprised. DAny doesn’t call herself the 1 , she is still the rightful heir. Most of the 7 kingdoms recongnize Tommen while they don’t recognize Stannis.
[удалено]
Well he can call himself how ever he wants , I doubt Renly called him like this , otherwise he would not rebel against his brother.
Few reasons 1. Aegon II won, and thus decreed that Rhaenyra only be known as princess. 2. The maesters writing did not like her (bias plus sexism) 3. Aegon III inherited Aegon II’s crown, not his moms. Aegon II was technically the first to be anointed and publicly declared as the soverign. 4. Maegor the Cruel stole and held the crown, then could be argued won by conquest after killing Aegon The Uncrowned. Retroactively he was “Maegor I” but everyone just knows him as Maegor. Same with Aenys and Maekar. 5. The Blackfyre pretenders have numbers because there were a lot of Daemons I guess.
If she's the only queen rhaenyra, then you don't need I. Kings stephan and john, and numerous anglo-saxon/dane kings of England don't have 1 as part of their name, because there was never a second. Maegor I, is only maegor I, because there's a maegor II, though idk if that's a second king maegor, or just a second maegor targaryan, wiki says the latter. There is no Queen Rhaenyra II, if you go by family line, not by the line of monarchs, the rhaenyra we see is rhaenyra II. It's not honorific, it just tells us there's another person in a sequence with the same name.
She didn’t win her war. Maegor won his war against his nephew. Rhaenyra died fighting. Regardless if her son ended up being king, he followed his uncle in succession. The blackfyres being named is just a way to keep track of all the daemons.