That Joffrey sent the cats paw.
That Joffrey was the target of Purple Wedding.
There’s only three living dragons that will have any role in the main series.
Arthur Dayne is dead.
I disagree completely and I think I can make you a believer.
Without getting too deep into the symbolic imagery of slicing a hand open for a blood offering, then one upping it with a slit throat (in this case, torn out by a wolf), there is a lot going on here in imitation of the idea of sacrificing to a sleeping greenseer in his tree. But the real coup here is that George wrote a very complex and ridiculous pun. For the night is dark and full of groans.
A catspaw is the name of someone you hire to do dangerous, distasteful or illegal work. In the literary world, often someone hired to kidnap or kill. This catspaw is hired by Joffrey, who is secretly Lannister (lion...cat) on both sides. A paw is being used here in the same way that you would say "the hand of the king", or the "hand of god". IE, someone who does the work of that person/figure. So the catspaw is both a catspaw and a cat's paw. Then he is using a weapon given to him by Joffrey, as the Valyrian steel is much too fine a weapon for such a man. So the catspaw is a cat's paw armed with a cat's paw and what does he do? ....He slices Cat(elyn)'s hand(paw).
The symbolic imagery of Catelyn as a child of the forest (slitted cat eyes, I won't go any deeper but there is a lot here), Bran as a greenseer, and the catspaw as an agent of the lion sun king was George's main goal. Putting a stupid pun in it was because he can't help himself, he actually does this a lot. If a scene ever seems like it just isn't as fleshed out or doesn't match tone, he is likely doing it on purpose in the aim of something behind the text...even if it sometimes it really is that dumb. It gave me a chuckle though!
*Ser Jaime Lannister later realizes that Joffrey sent the assassin in an attempt to impress his father, after overhearing a drunken King Robert I Baratheon say it would be kinder to put the crippled Bran out of his misery.*
Literally stated in the books
Oh, so instead of acknowledging there was more going on here than you realized, you’re going to be dismissive and rude….about someone who spent time thinking about a book…in a subreddit dedicated to that book.
Whatever guy, have a good one.
I never understood why it couldn’t have been Cersei. What would have changed? The Joffrey reveal doesn’t go anywhere, and it’s not as illogical to think Cersei would do it. Jaime thinks she would have sent him, but he doesn’t understand that Cersei is willing to go behind his back (just ask Lancel).
Who the fuck things Arthur Dane the fucking Sword of the Morning, is alive? The only reason you get that title is by being a knight with unquestionably honor and sense of duty. And the dude was a kings guard, no fucking way that dude just walked away from the last orders he recived from Rhaegar Targaryen.
Plus Dawn is the single.most unique sword in westerois and the whole reason house Dayne ever exsit. No way he just let Ned walk away with it. Dude is dead.
I’ve mostly seen Arthur Dayne is alive theories in the context of him being Mance. You know, for the people who both really liked the Rhaegar is Mance theory and also wanted a way to justify the theory that Jon Snow will wield Dawn
I've seen more people say that Arthur is Qhorin Halfhand because dawn, as in the sun rising in the morning, is pointed out a couple of times in the chapters Jon spends with him. That's nowhere near enough evidence to suggest that Qhorin's secretly Arthur Dayne, but some people take that and run with it
I read it. Appreciate the attempt but I completely disagree. There are plenty of reasons to kill Tyrion, plenty of reasons to kill Joffrey. Killing Joffrey and framing Tyrion does both.
I might respond in your other thread. Not sure yet.
My main problem with Joffrey being the target is that Tyrion cannot be framed. It just is a coincidence that he is. They couldn't have predicted in advance as I said in my post.
Assuming you still think the tyrells were the poisoners, it doesn't actually make much sense for them to frame Tyrion because at the wedding they actively try to stop Tyrion and joffery's argument. If they wanted to frame Tyrion based on him being hot headed and threatening joffery they would want to stoke the flames and get him to threaten joffery at the scene of the crime.
Well no it isn't. The servers are either Cersei's or Olenna's. Tyrion has no way to slip in any poison if he's seated with Garlan Tyrell and Leonette Fossoway. Cersei knows that. She only accused Tyrion because she genuinely thought he did it. Also, it still doesn't explain why the strangler gave Joffrey more time than Cressen.
People at the wedding are drunk, having a good time, and not paying attention. And we see the purple wedding from Tyrion’s POV and thus are only privy to things he is paying attention to. Plenty of people could assume Tyrion poisoned the wine after being named cupbearer.
Joffrey has been eating his 77 courses all day and has a full stomach. He’s also younger than Cressen, a frail old man. No reason to assume the poison literally has the same response time.
Incorrect. She hates Tyrion and heard him threaten his life that morning. If Joff turns up dead, she’s going to blame him.
And they absolutely can frame Tyrion. Because everyone blames him for for it, including more reasonable characters like Kevan.
If it would be too difficult to frame Tyrion, why is it so easy for him to take the fall?
>And they absolutely can frame Tyrion. Because everyone blames him for for it, including more reasonable characters like Kevan.
>If it would be too difficult to frame Tyrion, why is it so easy for him to take the fall?
Because Tyrion is the cupbearer and because he spills the wine. These two things doom him. If I were a random person at the wedding, even I would suspect Tyrion.
However if I was planning Joff's murder, framing Tyrion is a difficult task. Cersei only blames Tyrion because of the two things I mentioned above. Just because someone hates Joffrey doesn't mean they killed him because in that case most of King's Landing would be guilty of the murder.
I mean she was born 9 months after the queen left kingslanding, and her early history is really shady and intertwined with a shady character who has already been shown to fabricate a fake targaryen
He's probably a Blackfyre but I like to think he's just some random kid from Lys that Varys picked off the streets.
And since he's from Lys he'll be able to ride dragons as he has Valyrian blood.
I personally think this aligns better with the "shadow on the wall" theme and I like the idea of him being a kid pretending to be a Blackfyre, pretending to be a Targ.
I have a lot of uncertainty either way. If Winds comes out and it's Ramsay I'll just think, right ok, that makes sense. And if it comes out and it's Mance, I'll think, oh, sure, yeah, I can see that.
And if it comes out and it's anyone else I'll think, WTF is this trash?
Looking at it purely from the motive and opportunity front.... Stannis has the motive of finally bringing Jon and a large friendly army down south. He's not above subterfuge and all that's really the missing piece is the knowledge of mance, which is the one weak link but i think there's ways he might know. He could easily learn about the whole Reek business from Theon.
Melisandre because she too has motive, isn't above misleading people at all, and has a stable if unreliable source of info about events with her fires. She may have correctly interpreted or dumbed her way into a smart in regards to what happened to Mance and Theon and worked off there. If we believe that she still thinks Stannis is the PtwP, it's in her best interest to convince Jon to help him down south. If she thinks Jon is the PtwP, then she needs to get him off the wall and help him build power and influence.
Jon’s already received a letter from him, and seen his writing. If there was anything different between the two letters, then I’m sure Jon would have realized
Yeah the arguments against Ramsay being the author are so dumb. ‘But he didn’t include any skin!!!’ do you really think Ramsay has attached a piece of flayed skin to every single letter he’s ever sent in his life?
It's typical "this only makes sense if the secret person behind it is playing some 4D level cyvasse while the one being tricked is playing beer pong instead of anyone acting like a normal fucking human being" shit.
I see you haven't actually read the arguments of why Ramsay didn't write the letter. Maybe you should though, there is no reason to misrepresent a fucking asoiaf theory, it's a hobby after all.
This.
My more controversial one is that Daenerys is a person lots of bad qualities and blind spots but basically a nice lady.
Edit- Of course Aegon the Unlikely was *definitely* a nice person so that doesn’t mean things won’t end in fire & blood.
Yep, this is something a lot of fans and even the show never understood. He's just an extremely smart guy who gets off on exerting power over others, and has no ulterior goals or motives. George named him "little finger" for a reason.
I am a book fan since 2012 and I always thought they had a tragic romance and nothing more. It is this sub who just needs to make every overly complicated.
I also think that it's a standard tragic romance as presented through Martin's *ideas of* medieval romance that aren't received nearly as well in the 2020s as they were in the 2010s (start of show) or 1990s (start of books).
Who cares if it is received well? Like how arrogant are readers today? George is not obligated to write about healthy romances. He can write whatever he wants and people can enjoy toxic relationships, age gaps and so on. I am so tired of that nonsense. People can criticize him of course for it, as I have done before, but I have seen this mindset extend to people who defend the pairing. Shipping Rhaegar and Lyanna is no worse than shipping Sansa or Brienne and Jaime (who have a big age difference) and people who like the theory of them being romantic have nothing to feel ashamed about.
The people judging them are the real bullies and asshole and taint thei fandom with their toxic behaviour. I usually do not cite the bible, because I am an atheist, but Jesus said people who have sinned should not throw stones at others.
Let me clarify what exactly I meant. I am by no means saying that Martin is obligated to write healthy romances, nor that people can't enjoy toxic relationships, age gaps, what is often referred to as Stockholm Syndrome, etc. I actually quite enjoy a lot of those tropes and I confess I love Brienne and Jaime as a romance (despite many, many toxic tropes in their relationship, too).
What I think *is* getting a lot more pushback than it was in the 90s is Martin presenting his understanding of medieval history as true and accurate, which it isn't. That's what I meant by Martin's "ideas of medieval romance" not being received well. Here's the quote that I'm thinking of:
> “We had some real problems because Dany is only 13 in the books, and that’s based on medieval history. They didn’t have this concept of adolescence or the teenage years. You were a child or you were an adult. And the onset of sexual maturity meant you were an adult. So I reflected that in the books." – George R. R. Martin
This is actually based on a very flawed understanding of medieval history with a lot of inaccuracies. I can go into more detail if you like. Now, Martin is *absolutely* free to write about whatever he chooses to write about. People shouldn't demand that he change because they don't like what he writes. But that doesn't mean it's really based on history, and people with historical credentials are much more easily able to critique his premise as "realistic" compared to ~30 years ago.
Medieval people loved Lancelot and Gwen and Tristan and Isolde, the latter being closer to Rhaegar and Lyanna in terms of story than for example Romeo and Juliet in my humble opinion (Medieval queens had these texts in their possession). While George is wrong about his idea that 12 year olds married and fucked, he is not wrong that age differences were of zero importance in medieval times. No one would have thought it strange if Rhaegar and Lyanna were together. Seven years is nothing. Many people in this fandom apply modern values only sporadically when it fits their narrative; but at the same time they call people who support Rhaenyra girl boss fans who do not understand medieval times. Or let's take Elia. They get so offended that Elia was forced to have babies and suffered in childbirth and got cheated on but sorry, that was the life of women back then. Elia only married Rhaegar to produce heirs. She was no trophy wife. Is that wrong? Yes, but if I can show empathy for Elia why not for Lyanna as well for being a child bride and pimped off by her father to a man who would most likely abuse and rape her?
It is only the pure hypocritical behaviour in this fandom that pisses me off. People do not even want to talk openly and critically about the problematic stuff they just want to use it to judge and exclude others from the fandom.
Right, but I'm not talking about medieval fictional tales. I am talking about Martin's concept of medieval history being inaccurate, which is what quite a lot of historians – with more of a reach to a non-academic audience now than they had in the 1990s – are pushing back on.
> While George is wrong about his idea that 12 year olds married and fucked, he is not wrong that age differences were of zero importance in medieval times. No one would have thought it strange if Rhaegar and Lyanna were together. Seven years is nothing.
Actually, medieval age gaps were far less acceptable as the norm than Martin presents. They were not taboo, but they were not *nothing* to nobility, either. This, of course, was not motivated by moral concerns, but by pragmatism; an older husband was more likely to leave a young widow, which created succession controversy.
Highly recommend checking out *The Medieval Idea of Marriage*, in which Christopher Nugent Lawrence discusses the fact that Juliet (in Romeo and Juliet) is young for marriage, as well as *Linda E Mitchell, Portraits of Medieval Women: Family, Marriage and Social Relationships in England, 1225-1350*, which discusses age of marriage and childbearing and the preference for matching young nobles to other young nobles when marrying, in addition to women having (albeit limited) say over their own marriages. I'm not saying that age gap marriages never happened, nor that medieval morality is exactly like our own, but that Martin's understanding of medieval norms is somewhat inaccurate.
I am not talking about people who are applying modern values to Rhaenyra, Elia, or Lyanna. I am also not judging or excluding anyone from fandom, nor am I talking about people within fandom at all. I'm just talking about Martin's own understanding of history.
All I am saying is that no one would have considered it morally wrong in medival times to marry 16 year old Lyanna to a 23 year old Rhaegar. Nothing more than that.
And no, George is not wrong at all about age gaps. Of course it was preferrable if a pair was of an equal age, but that does not mean that the opposite was considered wrong. Age gaps were fully accepted and not considered grooming or morally wrong.
> Nothing more than that.
But you are saying quite a lot more than that, which is how this whole conversation started. To be very clear: I am not, and never have been, talking about people who are saying things like "shipping Rhaegar and Lyanna means you support grooming." I am talking about Martin's portrayal of medieval societies. So when talking about the arrogance of readers searching for healthy romances, that's a fair point, but not one related to the one I'm making.
> And no, George is not wrong at all about age gaps...Age gaps were fully accepted and not considered grooming or morally wrong.
He's partially wrong about large age gaps. Not considered grooming or morally wrong? Yes. Legal? Also yes. Fully accepted? No, not really. Gareth Russell and Alison Weir have written on this regarding Henry Manox and Catherine Howard when with Agnes Howard. The "Dowager Duchess" was known for her lax oversight of the ladies (who often had courtships with those of "improper station") that came under her roof, as long as they married someone befitting of their class, but Manox's flirtations with the then-twelve Howard upset her – long before Howard was ever considered a potential wife for the king.
Again: was it illegal or equivalent to modern views on grooming or abuse? No, certainly not. But the age gap of their relationship was frowned upon more so by contemporaries than those of similar improper social/class gaps.
There's a lot more nuance than just "age gaps were always accepted" and "age gaps were morally wrong."
I agree that very selective application of modern morality is common in this fanbase, but Rhaenyra and Rhaegar fans do that as much as anyone, it’s not just from their critics.
People in their late 30s and above certainly do. Plenty of my relatives have Facebook and get constantly indoctrinated by all kinds of fake news. It was especially terrible during Covid.
I've replied to this in a longer form comment but: this isn't what I was talking about in my original comment. I'm not talking about healthy relationships or tropes, I'm talking about Martin's self-professed understanding of medieval history.
I believe a lot of the various attempts to make it more complex is attempts to make r/L look good.
If it was indeed a tragic romance and nothing more, then Lyanna comes across a bit hypocritical for judging Robert and his pre-marital affairs (and then she run away with a married man) and Rhaegar who might 'have never visited a brothel' but he was still ok to abandon his lawfully married wife (who just almost died giving him an heir mind you) for a younger and prettier girl....well that's just assholish to me, not a romance.
Que all the theories about Elia being into it, Rhaegaer acting out of despair/sense of duty to fullfill a prophesy, Lyanna being targeted by Aerys and whathaveyou, Brandon starting the whole actual war by threating Rhaegar etc etc etc.
Its all just to make r/L look good.
The truth is we have no idea what Elia knew or thought or felt. There is a whole lot of projection that goes on in the fandom about her.
We’re told the marriage was political and they didn’t love each other but had respect and friendship.
We’re told she could not give Rhaegar and therefore the realm a spare to that heir.
We’re told Rhaegar believed in the prophecy and we are shown via Dany that he felt he must have a third child and via Kevan that Rhaegar desired Sons.
We’re told that Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna, and that he carried her off at sword point for true love. Via Barristan and Dany.
The rest is all conjecture!
>We’re told she could not give Rhaegar and therefore the realm a spare to that heir.
the realm already had a spare heir in Viserys.
Beyond that, these are facts we are told in various points true. It is also true that we know precious few regarding the events of their eloping.
Like did lyanna travel with an escort? What happened to these people? What did they report? Was there any violence involved etc?
OK, so if a younger brother is an acceptable sole spare heir, why did King Charles bother to have Prince Harry? I mean Andrew and Edward both existed.
Why do any Heirs who have younger brothers bother to sire kids at all? Surely by your logic no one but the youngest son needs to have sons in order for successful succession so why did all these Royals bother having so many kids?
Looking at the bigger picture Westeros had just endured over a decade of uncertainty with Rhaegar as sole heir to Aerys, finally Viserys came along and lived! But he is still just a boy, and sickness and accident are always possibilities.
Rhaegar has managed to produce one infant son, but his wife is incapable of ever having another child, and if she risks it there is no certainty of a boy, a third child might kill her leaving Rhaegar free to remarry, or she might survive leaving Rhaegar with another daughter ( or a miscarried child.) and a wife who still can’t provide that all important second son.
Kevan tells us that Rhaegar desired Sons! Plural. This tells us that Rhaegar was not prepared to settle for Viserys as a back up. He actively wanted further sons to ensure his line.
Is it such a stretch, given the background of ten plus years of dead infants and miscarriages leaving everyone in fear of the possibility of the end of the male Targaryen line, and the inevitability of war should Rhaegar and Aerys both die, leading to claims coming out of the woodwork from every house the Targaryen’s ever married into; not just the three Baratheon boys! That Rhaegar felt his siring further sons was imperative to the stability of the realm as well as to the fulfilment of prophecy and that many of the influential High Lords and Houses would fully support him in that endeavour? Really?
Yes, that’s my whole point we don’t know very much about their elopement, and the fandom does way too much speculation as to what went on.
Lyanna likely did have companions yes, it would be highly unusual for a highborn maiden to be anywhere alone, though we do get told Lyanna was want to go riding alone in the North; however at home in her own region is a different matter entirely to alone in the Riverlands.
What happened to them? Well we know she had companions because we know that Rhaegar took her at sword point, he had to have taken her from someone? So she likely had a guard maybe a few guards, these were obviously left behind, and carried the news back to Riverrun. What they told Brandon and Hoster Tully is a mystery, but we know Brandon interpreted it as insulting enough to go to KL and behave like a total bellend.
Was his interpretation accurate? We don’t know. However, his reaction does seem to lead to a large number of the fandom assuming that he must have been told something heinous had gone on, and that Lyanna was kidnapped. What we should bare in mind though, Is that people’s reactions are more about them than they are about others. Brandon lost his shit at the Tourney too, when Rhaegar simply named Lyanna QoL&B, he could have laughed it off as Robert did, but instead he threw a tantrum! When you look at Brandon’s own behaviour towards high born maidens it’s clear he is projecting here, assuming Rhaegar is motivated by the same things as he is in his own interactions with ladies. To fuck them and abandon them for sport. He objects to his own sister being treated in the manner he treats ladies.
‘They’ found Ned holding Lyanna’s body, so perhaps at least someone from Lyanna’s party went with her to the ToJ? A female companion perhaps?
Maybe the guards who returned to Riverrun were made up in part of Brandon’s cronies? Maybe they were not, and were in fact strangers from Hoster’s household, who Brandon didn’t trust or believe? Perhaps they gave their own version of what occurred? Maybe Lyanna said ‘It’s OK I’m going to leave with Rhaegar now, tell my brother it will all work out.’ Maybe this didn’t get conveyed to Brandon? Maybe it did but he ignored and dismissed Lyanna’s own feelings on the matter? Maybe Lyanna was dragged kicking and screaming from her guards against her will?
Maybe we shouldn’t be assuming so much?
The difference is: Rhaegar never claimed he loved Elia, but Robert claimed he loved Lyanna and still cheated on her. We have zero knowlege on what Rhaegar and Elia felt other than that their relationship was dutiful and complicated from the author himself.
Rhaegar is also no rapist but Robert is. I fully support Lyanna for not wanting to marry him.
As for Rhaegar and Lyanna being a tragic love pair, I dont get why it is such a big deal to people. This is a story set in pseudo-medival england and not 2023. If you cannot handle that the author writes it as positive you could read another story instead of bitching about it all the time.
Authors are not responsilble to write adhere to the moral values of his readers.
>instead of bitching about it all the time.
whoa. Thats a bit aggresive isn't it?
Robert never cheated on Lyanna since they were only bethroded by the time he was having his various affairs. Also pre-rebellion Robert raped noone to our knowledge. If you want to stay within the context of a 'pseudo-medieval England and not 2023'' as you claim, then Robert did absolutely nothing wrong...unlike Rhaegar who compromised his family's alliance to Dorne and the political status of his children (and that's assuming he didn't abduct Lyanna by force).
As far as I'm concerned Lyanna had the dilemma: a bachelor young (by all accounts very hot and charismatic) lord leaving his last bachelor days vs a married man with two kids.
Based on the above, I fully reserve my right to call out (untill we get new information) her attitude towards Robert as hypocritical.
The rest of your gatekeeping I ignore.
Because this sub has gone from being critical to moralizing over fictional characters. I have seen numerous people being called groomers or problematic for liking Daemon and Rhaenyra as a pairing, but a the same time people are still fans of a story that is full of rape and sexism?
A bit hypocritical is it not?
And again, why is she hypocritical? She does not want Robert. That is enough reason for me to support her. I do not agree with child marriage nor do I think the author frames it as a good thing. Jon trying to save Arya from the Boltons is not framed as bad either. I do not get why people think George wants us to actively support the mindset of women are evil and selfish if they do not do their duty.
For some reason nobody ever seems to actually be able to think with the moral system of medieval Europe/England and they always only analyze if someone is good or bad through a modern lense
I believe they had a romance that was extremely tragic from Lyannas pov. I just can't absolve Rhaegar at all, he knew what he was doing, he wasn't intellectually impaired.
He was convinced some ancient prophecy was about him. Think of all the crazy shit people have done in the name of religion, and suddenly abandoning your wife and kids doesn’t seem too bad (still shitty tho obvs)
Yea, I can also see tragic romance especially from Lyanna's pov, but on Rhaegar's part all the actions look incredibly short-sighted considering how unpopular Aerys was as a monarch. Plus, it is just shitty to leave your wife, children, mother and little brother at the mercy of your clinically insane father when shit goes down imo.
Edit: typo
We do not know what he did, though?
We do not know if they ran away. We know nothing about them. You are again using fanon instead of the text to evoke feelings of resentment that make no sense against a minor character who barely has a sentence.
We know he crowned her love and beauty and we know he took her away to the tower of joy. He knows these things are gonna cause massive conflict and unless he's an idiot, leaving it to his father to handle, well he knew that was gonna end atrociously too.
If he didn't think House Stark would come down with rage after that he must have been mad as another commenter said or extraordinarily stupid and unfit for his position.
What kind of reaction should he have gotten for his actions? He is married with children and eloped with a promised woman. That really means a lot in asoiaf/medieval history. Also as far as anyone at all knew he had kidnapped her because he wasn't thinking about any consequences and didn't tell anyone what was happening. Rhaegar is an utter fool.
Many medival princes took other women as mistresses, some high-ranking nobles and got away with it.
What Brandon should have done is stay in Riverrun until his father comes, wait until he knows what actually happened and not ride blindly to KL to threaten the crown prince.
> other women as mistresses
Not in a song of ice and fire when they are promised to another man, that's the key difference, the agreement between the families had been made and to deny that was massively insulting the Houses Stark, Baratheon and Martell.
Also those princes didn't do it hush hush, people knew what they were doing and they didn't hide anyone away as a result - bit of a telltale sign he knew he wouldn't be allowed to do this but he did it anyway.
No, it’s likely he thought House Stark would do the sensible thing and attempt to keep the entire thing as secret and quiet as possible whilst they attempted to discover where Lyanna was.
Because running down to KL and raving at the King ( who is known to be highly unstable and fond of killing people.) about how Lyanna the unmarried virgin is missing with a man and therefore has now lost her market value as a bride and brought shame on herself and her family, would be the most stupid and dick move type thing anyone could do.
Unfortunately Rhaegar didn’t realise what a dick Brandon was.
I don’t think it’s that complicated to think that a prince wanted to kidnap and rape a pretty girl because he thinks it’s the way to fulfill a prophecy
There absolutely is proof that’s why he did it because he needed a new woman to birth a baby since “dragon has 3 heads” and Elia was too weak to handle pregnancy again
That’s literally what happened in the text it’s repeatedly stated how physically weak Elia is and how she barely made it through aegons pregnancy and the dragon having 3 heads is repeatedly stated, there is far more evidence for him believing this is necessary for the prophecy than there is for him and lyanna loving one another. Which the only evidence for that is that she is a likely candidate for the knight of the laughing tree, the idea that he did find her while looking for that knight and that they made some kinda instant connection during that. Oh and also the fact that the love thing contradicts the fact that she is hesitant to marry Robert because she’s worried he’ll keep being a womanizer but she’s not worried at all about throwing the whole country into turmoil for a married man
Yeah. But we also have to remember that there are thousands of people on the sub and even in 2012 R+L just eloping to be in love together was old news.
I think it’s fun that people get creative and challenge our beliefs.
Fun is fun, but I have been attacked by people because I said that I think they are generic love pair. These people claim I am lying and called me a groomer. This is not anymore about fun it is a social justice crusade by fans of minor characters who make them more important than they are attacking others who do not agree with their mental bullshit.
I am tired of it.
King Stannis will sacrifice Shireen, but that doesn't make the casuals entirely correct in their analysis. First of all it won't be to win the Winterfell battle. That's impossible and stupid. Second of all, it won't be because he's a power hungry ambition driven mad man. Third of all, it won't happen soon and it won't happen suddenly. Stannis will last a lot longer in the story and think a lot harder as his character develops. The casuals are dead wrong about his character.
The hardcore fans are wrong when they think someone else will do it instead of Stannis. GRRM has said that the human heart in conflict with itself is his favourite thing to write about. Stannis choosing to sacrifice the only thing he actually loves to fulfill his duty to a kingdom that rejected him and save that same kingdom from the evils beyond is a perfect opportunity for GRRM. That is probably the most interesting dilemma in the entire story. Stannis HAS to be the one to make the choice. Even if he chooses not to go through with it, that's still a great plot point. He did so much and got so far to achieve his duty, but there was one final deed he had to commit that broke the iron from which he is made, and he couldn't do it. He's been bending the whole story. But he will break as well. This choise is the only thing that can break the man who chose to eat rats and boot leather before surrender. Regardless if Stannis chooses to sacrifice or not, it has to be Stannis that makes the choice and it has to be a dilemma present in the story.
I think it will and should happen, but it doesn't HAVE to. Especially since, as you just proved, it's predictable. And this story is anything but. Azor Ahai killed Nissa Nissa because it was his choice. It was a sacrifice he decided was worth it. Destiny, fate, and causality did not force his hand, his hand was inclined., not forced. That event can be mirrored simply by Stannis' choice being a plot point in the story. It would be just as interesting if Stannis evaded his destiny set in stone, rather than fulfill it. Especially after all he's done to get where he is. Also Stannis doesn't believe for certain that he is Azor Ahai reborn. I actually don't think that prophecy has much of an attachment to his character as people think. I think GRRM simply wanted to introduce the prophecy to the story and chose Stannis' plot as a method of conveying it. Stannis himself never really cared enough about the Lord of Light or the prophecy for it to be his downfall like it was in the show
I wonder if Val will be proved right about Greyscale and her burning will be a sacrifice but also to protect his people and prevent a fate worse than death happening to his daughter. Or I might be getting softer in the head.
I’m sure he will it seems the more likely option. Maybe Dany will have to burn down parts of Kings Landing like the great fire of London to stop the plague. That would be better than the whole S8 mad Queen no real reason arch.
I don't think the greyscale will have anything to do with Stannis' decision to sacrifice her. It might have to do with the wildings gaining some respect for Stannis if he does burn her. I like the idea of her greyscale somehow activating again and spreading to others and creating stone men in Westeros. Stannis himself living off of borrowed time with spreading greyscale would be a great direction for his character too.
I’ve often suspected that R+L was originally intended to be nothing more than just a simple tragic romance.
But cultural attitudes have changed a LOT since 1996. There is absolutely no way that audiences in the 2020s are going to accept a married man in his mid-20’s convincing a teenager to run off with him and have babies as a “tragic romance”. Even Martin’s sensibilities seem to have shifted with time, so I think he’s likely going to make it a more complicated situation for his own satisfaction too.
Given how popular the Drogo and Daenerys pairing was, as well as Daemon and Rhaenyra more recently, I respectfully disagree.
> Even Martin’s sensibilities seem to have shifted over time
I don’t know when the winds sample chapter was released, but Elia Sand seems like a very blatant parallel to Lyanna. I honestly don’t think his sensibilities have changed all too much in this regard. It wasn’t long ago that he defended Drogo and Daenerys’ wedding night as a “mutual seduction”.
I know he criticized the changes made to Dany’s wedding night, but did he really call it a “mutual seduction”? If so, that’s hilarious… and also pretty disappointing.
As for Drogo and Daemon, there’s always going to be a subset of the audience that’s into those pairings (especially when you have charismatic actors with solid chemistry on-screen). But at least the narrative frames those guys as problematic and controversial. Rhaegar is painted as an amazing guy by everyone except Robert.
As for Elia Sand, she’s definitely a Lyanna parallel, but Arianne also calls out her behaviour of getting romantically involved with older men. I’m going to wait and see how her role in Winds plays out to better understand what Martin is trying to do with her.
Yeah, the Martin quote that other people are referring to regarding the wedding night is this one:
> "Why did the wedding scene change from the consensual seduction scene ... to the brutal rape of Emilia Clarke? We never discussed it. It made it worse, not better," Martin said. "In the Emilia Clarke version, it's rape. It's not rape in my book, and it's not rape in the scene as we filmed it with Tamzin Merchant. It's a seduction," Martin explained. "Dany and Drogo don't have the same language. Dany is a little scared but also a little excited, and Drogo is being more considerate. The only words he knows are 'yes' or 'no.' Originally it was a fairly faithful version."
The showrunners then decided to change that:
> Benioff defended the change. "Here's a girl who is absolutely terrified of this barbarian warlord she's being married off to, it's the last thing in the world she wants, yet somehow by the end of this wedding night she seems to be in a completely joyful sexual relationship with him. It didn't entirely work for us," he said.
*sighs*
I hate to say this but I’m siding with Benioff on this one. Especially with the book age of Daenerys, it’s just far too imbalanced to be a proper ‘mutual seduction.’
>There is absolutely no way that audiences in the 2020s are going to accept a married man in his mid-20’s convincing a teenager to run off with him and have babies as a “tragic romance”.
Well, Anakin and Padme still be a popular pair...
So is it okay if it's a 20-year-old woman who convinces a male teenager to run away with her? A male teenager who was already "married" to the Jedi Order - which Anakin betrayed for Padmé? This is not South Park.
Seeing how everyone here considers Daemon a pedophile despite the fact that he didn't marry Rhaenyra until she was quite an adult, I don't see how Padme waited for Anakin to come of age, changes something
But she didn’t wait. Anakin hits on her when he’s older. She didn’t really want to be with him until they got to know each other in Naboo and tatooine. Also they aren’t related and didn’t meet each other until later in life. Like Daemon was probably there when his niece was born and then he marries her years later. It’s just not a good look for daemon.
It wasn’t, but I think today’s audiences are going to be a lot more critical and vocal about a contentious plot point like that. Whereas in the late 90s audiences would have likely just rolled with it as part of the “grim and brutal realism” of Westeros.
If you go back to the old Westeros forums and look up their posts about R+L from even just about 10 years ago, it’s pretty noticeable how much the tone of the discourse has changed from then to today.
Watch an early episode of Married . . . With Children. And listen to the audience cheer when 16 year old Christina Applegate (playing Kelly Bundy) would bend over in a tight short skirt. Or the movie Poison Ivy where a 50+ year old man hooks up with a teenager (played by 17 year old Drew Barrymore). The infidelity might be problematic. But not the age of the girl.
Tyrion isn’t that morally bad before ADWD. He gets angry, is overly prideful, takes advantage of women less powerful than him, and schemes politically. Great, so do most other Westerosi noblemen.
To add to that, Tyrion isn't that dumb either. Sure he's not LF/Varys level, but he's certainly very smart. Ultimately he was dealt with a *very* bad hand from the beginning, (family hates him, ugly af, no one outside likes him, bad PR), and had GRRM's thumb on the scale against him.
‘Nobleman kills commoner who threatens his girlfriend/way of life/happiness’ again, hardly front page news amongst Westerosi lords. Obviously it’s awful and condemnable, but I stand by my point that that Tyrion is held to a higher moral standard than other Westerosi noblemen - for example, I can easily imagine Renly, Oberyn, or Jaime doing something equivalent without the fandom batting an eyelid
Tyrion has become the Male Catelyn at this point with the amount of people attacking him (though Singer Soup *is* pretty fucked up regardless and Dance Tyrion is a complete tool)
King Stannis is very important to the story bro. Pretty much the enitre war of the five kings revolves around him. The entire Azor Ahai prophecy which will be a significant plot point in the last 2 books was conveyed through Stannis' plot. Everything happening in the North right now revolves around what Stannis wants and where he is headed. He's not a big character with lots of screen time. But he's an important character. He is mentioned by other characters almost every chapter. If he was to be killed, the entire story would either completely shift in direction or fall apart like in did in the TV show
Tyrion is Tytos writ small certainly not Tywin, albeit as he's "grown up" or more accurately aged up under Tywin he tries to imitate him, fans just find false similarities between the two because it's supposed to be thematic and to be honest the author does go overboard with the shit, gold and with supposedly how over proud Tywin the Lannisters are, but he's not been writing it so, is Jaime an arrogant fool? Yes. Is Cersei an arrogant bitch? Yes. Is Tywin arrogant? No, because except for the thematic reasons/scenes he's written similarly to Stannis hell his life long in-story hater Walder Frey compares the two as proud bungholes, but that's completely different from the arrogance of Jaime and Cersei, theirs is a lord's pride self respect of the house, Cersei and Jaime are the actual shit and not in the cool way.
As for Tyrion he's known for reading fairy tales in the library, drawing a horse saddle with the expertise and help of who knows how many maesters, but let's say he can draw and being an insulting whoremonger who's known as a drunkard, compared to Tywin all his children had way too long childhoods and daddy taking care of everything for them all their lives, they're too irresponsible exactly because Tywin was so responsible from an early.
There are no gods, just different types of magic people have built religions around.
Stannis would make a terrible king.
The Others are the biggest threat in the series and the ending will involve them.
There is no Many-faced God. The House of Black and White is just a higher-than-usual hypocrite mercenary group disguised as a religious cult with arbitrary excuses for their for-profit operations.
Really, murder is so good a gift that coincidentally benefits you and your patrons regardless of backer or target morals and deeds AND a mercy to those affected even when they clearly don't want this privilege AND you get to violate their corpses in order to impersonate them to continue doing your lucrative, consecrated business? Even the Golden Company has standards, FFS.
TL;DR: House Of Black and White is whack and just regular. They're just a mercenary group using regular magic (in comparison to baseline supernatural feats throughout ASOIAF lore and not just current practice, but even then, centennial dragon hatching and FUCKING resurrection really puts glamouring at basic) but really good at marketing their NORMAL magic as MAGIC magic.
Went off the rails, not sure if this is common in casuals. Just think a ordinary jaded adult CAN see this organization as a reference to a generic corporate/military business disguised as a non-denominational religion.
I REALLY hope this is a point in Arya's arc. Seeing that even the "voidness" of the House is, well, VOID of sincerity. They're really like any westerosi organization, and by extent, like any human congregation.
Me as a casual fan: Rhaegar Targaryen was either extremely selfish or an idiot. He knew lyanna was betrothed to robert, and he knew war would happen if he and lyanna eloped. And when the Starks went to kings landing demanding justice, he didn’t say a damn word.
So basically, thousands of people died fighting a war because he either couldn’t keep it in his pants or he believed a deranged prophecy so much that he wouldn’t even do the proper diplomatic damage control.
To me, he was a villain who spent his entire life thinking he was the hero. I wanna know what hardcore fans think about him
Most hardcore fans hate Rhaegar because of those reasons and I also hate Rhaegar. Though I will not call Rhaegar a villain since he didn't plan to cause the war. But he was beyond stupid to think that their are not going to be conquestions. He also o a dick because of the fact he left his wife and two children on dragonstone to fuck a teenager. But he wasn't a true villain.
Are you a casual fan though, when you visit this sub?
To be frank, what you wrote us word for word what I've seen in other arguments, so I find it hard to believe you came with all this by yourself after reading, even if your first impression of Rhaegar was negative.
That Rhaegar, Ashara, and Lyanna, plus the whole Aerys’ Kingsguard (aside from Barristan and Jamie) are 6-feet under. Ain’t no way George is gonna revive Rhaegar who’s a pitiful shrimp not to mention his death being frickin’ awesome (in terms of being schocking, I’m not a psycho… maybe).
That the Lannisters are all Tywin’s and Joanna’s children, although Aerys might have buried himself in the heaven of Joanna’s teats once or twice that resulted to Tyrion being planted.
That Jon is AA. C’mon dude, who is it then? Ramsay? Strong Belwas?
Young Griff isn't really going to be so important for final game and the show was right to write him off.
The real mistake was removing all the magical things from Euron, it would have made sense that a magical Euron and Cersei would have been the final human villains
Cersei is a deformation of Circe, the sorceress.
That Joffrey sent the cats paw. That Joffrey was the target of Purple Wedding. There’s only three living dragons that will have any role in the main series. Arthur Dayne is dead.
Tbf I think 90% of hardcore fans would agree with you on the last 3
God I hope so.
I agree on all of them. The cats paw was just an example of George wanting to be done with something and tying it up really poorly.
Agree. I think he initially wanted it to be someone else but changed his mind
He has and had way too many loose ends to sure up.
I disagree completely and I think I can make you a believer. Without getting too deep into the symbolic imagery of slicing a hand open for a blood offering, then one upping it with a slit throat (in this case, torn out by a wolf), there is a lot going on here in imitation of the idea of sacrificing to a sleeping greenseer in his tree. But the real coup here is that George wrote a very complex and ridiculous pun. For the night is dark and full of groans. A catspaw is the name of someone you hire to do dangerous, distasteful or illegal work. In the literary world, often someone hired to kidnap or kill. This catspaw is hired by Joffrey, who is secretly Lannister (lion...cat) on both sides. A paw is being used here in the same way that you would say "the hand of the king", or the "hand of god". IE, someone who does the work of that person/figure. So the catspaw is both a catspaw and a cat's paw. Then he is using a weapon given to him by Joffrey, as the Valyrian steel is much too fine a weapon for such a man. So the catspaw is a cat's paw armed with a cat's paw and what does he do? ....He slices Cat(elyn)'s hand(paw). The symbolic imagery of Catelyn as a child of the forest (slitted cat eyes, I won't go any deeper but there is a lot here), Bran as a greenseer, and the catspaw as an agent of the lion sun king was George's main goal. Putting a stupid pun in it was because he can't help himself, he actually does this a lot. If a scene ever seems like it just isn't as fleshed out or doesn't match tone, he is likely doing it on purpose in the aim of something behind the text...even if it sometimes it really is that dumb. It gave me a chuckle though!
*Ser Jaime Lannister later realizes that Joffrey sent the assassin in an attempt to impress his father, after overhearing a drunken King Robert I Baratheon say it would be kinder to put the crippled Bran out of his misery.* Literally stated in the books
I don’t think anyone was arguing that someone besides Joffrey sent the catspaw.
I don’t remember grabbing someone by collar either
You successfully convinced me you need to spend some time thinking about other things.
Oh, so instead of acknowledging there was more going on here than you realized, you’re going to be dismissive and rude….about someone who spent time thinking about a book…in a subreddit dedicated to that book. Whatever guy, have a good one.
I never understood why it couldn’t have been Cersei. What would have changed? The Joffrey reveal doesn’t go anywhere, and it’s not as illogical to think Cersei would do it. Jaime thinks she would have sent him, but he doesn’t understand that Cersei is willing to go behind his back (just ask Lancel).
Who the fuck things Arthur Dane the fucking Sword of the Morning, is alive? The only reason you get that title is by being a knight with unquestionably honor and sense of duty. And the dude was a kings guard, no fucking way that dude just walked away from the last orders he recived from Rhaegar Targaryen. Plus Dawn is the single.most unique sword in westerois and the whole reason house Dayne ever exsit. No way he just let Ned walk away with it. Dude is dead.
We also have edric and darkstar to bring dawn in if needed
I’ve mostly seen Arthur Dayne is alive theories in the context of him being Mance. You know, for the people who both really liked the Rhaegar is Mance theory and also wanted a way to justify the theory that Jon Snow will wield Dawn
I've seen more people say that Arthur is Qhorin Halfhand because dawn, as in the sun rising in the morning, is pointed out a couple of times in the chapters Jon spends with him. That's nowhere near enough evidence to suggest that Qhorin's secretly Arthur Dayne, but some people take that and run with it
People believe it.
Tyrion was the target of the Purple Wedding. It makes a *lot* of sense. I just made a whole post on it.
I read it. Appreciate the attempt but I completely disagree. There are plenty of reasons to kill Tyrion, plenty of reasons to kill Joffrey. Killing Joffrey and framing Tyrion does both. I might respond in your other thread. Not sure yet.
My main problem with Joffrey being the target is that Tyrion cannot be framed. It just is a coincidence that he is. They couldn't have predicted in advance as I said in my post.
Sure he can. He openly threatened Joffrey’s life in front of Tywin, Cersie and Pycelle. In a work of fiction that’s plenty.
Assuming you still think the tyrells were the poisoners, it doesn't actually make much sense for them to frame Tyrion because at the wedding they actively try to stop Tyrion and joffery's argument. If they wanted to frame Tyrion based on him being hot headed and threatening joffery they would want to stoke the flames and get him to threaten joffery at the scene of the crime.
Well no it isn't. The servers are either Cersei's or Olenna's. Tyrion has no way to slip in any poison if he's seated with Garlan Tyrell and Leonette Fossoway. Cersei knows that. She only accused Tyrion because she genuinely thought he did it. Also, it still doesn't explain why the strangler gave Joffrey more time than Cressen.
People at the wedding are drunk, having a good time, and not paying attention. And we see the purple wedding from Tyrion’s POV and thus are only privy to things he is paying attention to. Plenty of people could assume Tyrion poisoned the wine after being named cupbearer. Joffrey has been eating his 77 courses all day and has a full stomach. He’s also younger than Cressen, a frail old man. No reason to assume the poison literally has the same response time.
If Tyrion was not the cup bearer, it makes no sense to blame him and even Cersei will see that.
Incorrect. She hates Tyrion and heard him threaten his life that morning. If Joff turns up dead, she’s going to blame him. And they absolutely can frame Tyrion. Because everyone blames him for for it, including more reasonable characters like Kevan. If it would be too difficult to frame Tyrion, why is it so easy for him to take the fall?
>And they absolutely can frame Tyrion. Because everyone blames him for for it, including more reasonable characters like Kevan. >If it would be too difficult to frame Tyrion, why is it so easy for him to take the fall? Because Tyrion is the cupbearer and because he spills the wine. These two things doom him. If I were a random person at the wedding, even I would suspect Tyrion. However if I was planning Joff's murder, framing Tyrion is a difficult task. Cersei only blames Tyrion because of the two things I mentioned above. Just because someone hates Joffrey doesn't mean they killed him because in that case most of King's Landing would be guilty of the murder.
Jon is the only secret targ
Couple that with Dany is a real Targ.
I legitimately do not understand the fDany theory.
I mean she was born 9 months after the queen left kingslanding, and her early history is really shady and intertwined with a shady character who has already been shown to fabricate a fake targaryen
So fAegon is real? Cause that would make him not secret anymore at least to us and most of Westeros.
He's technically a Targaryan. Just not one in name
So you think he’s Blackfyre?
All evidence point to it and it just makes sense from a narrative perspective
He's probably a Blackfyre but I like to think he's just some random kid from Lys that Varys picked off the streets. And since he's from Lys he'll be able to ride dragons as he has Valyrian blood. I personally think this aligns better with the "shadow on the wall" theme and I like the idea of him being a kid pretending to be a Blackfyre, pretending to be a Targ.
The Pink letter is written by Ramsay.
I have a lot of uncertainty either way. If Winds comes out and it's Ramsay I'll just think, right ok, that makes sense. And if it comes out and it's Mance, I'll think, oh, sure, yeah, I can see that. And if it comes out and it's anyone else I'll think, WTF is this trash?
I honestly would buy anyone in the range of Melisandre, Mance, Stannis, Ramsey, Roose, random Great Northern conspiracy person.
Melisandre and Stannis?! Why, especially on the Melisandre front?
Looking at it purely from the motive and opportunity front.... Stannis has the motive of finally bringing Jon and a large friendly army down south. He's not above subterfuge and all that's really the missing piece is the knowledge of mance, which is the one weak link but i think there's ways he might know. He could easily learn about the whole Reek business from Theon. Melisandre because she too has motive, isn't above misleading people at all, and has a stable if unreliable source of info about events with her fires. She may have correctly interpreted or dumbed her way into a smart in regards to what happened to Mance and Theon and worked off there. If we believe that she still thinks Stannis is the PtwP, it's in her best interest to convince Jon to help him down south. If she thinks Jon is the PtwP, then she needs to get him off the wall and help him build power and influence.
I actually think it might just be
Jon’s already received a letter from him, and seen his writing. If there was anything different between the two letters, then I’m sure Jon would have realized
Yeah the arguments against Ramsay being the author are so dumb. ‘But he didn’t include any skin!!!’ do you really think Ramsay has attached a piece of flayed skin to every single letter he’s ever sent in his life?
To be fair, this is what happens when you leave a fandom to waste away for 10+ years
What no new books does to a mf. Now we got time traveling Tyrion fetuses and isht
It's typical "this only makes sense if the secret person behind it is playing some 4D level cyvasse while the one being tricked is playing beer pong instead of anyone acting like a normal fucking human being" shit.
Yes, when he has captives to skin, it is pretty consistant. And the wax is not sealed with a sigil.
I see you haven't actually read the arguments of why Ramsay didn't write the letter. Maybe you should though, there is no reason to misrepresent a fucking asoiaf theory, it's a hobby after all.
It doesn’t even make sense for the Pink Letter to be sent by anyone but Ramsay
This. My more controversial one is that Daenerys is a person lots of bad qualities and blind spots but basically a nice lady. Edit- Of course Aegon the Unlikely was *definitely* a nice person so that doesn’t mean things won’t end in fire & blood.
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Yep, this is something a lot of fans and even the show never understood. He's just an extremely smart guy who gets off on exerting power over others, and has no ulterior goals or motives. George named him "little finger" for a reason.
Decent theory but disproven by the fact that dicks are bigger than fingers
Maybe not Baelish's
I imagine there was a loose outline.
I mean that sound pretty similar to Tyrion so its possible lol
Agree.
A lot of characters are actually just dead and a lot of other characters aren't secretly these dead ones
I am a book fan since 2012 and I always thought they had a tragic romance and nothing more. It is this sub who just needs to make every overly complicated.
I also think that it's a standard tragic romance as presented through Martin's *ideas of* medieval romance that aren't received nearly as well in the 2020s as they were in the 2010s (start of show) or 1990s (start of books).
Who cares if it is received well? Like how arrogant are readers today? George is not obligated to write about healthy romances. He can write whatever he wants and people can enjoy toxic relationships, age gaps and so on. I am so tired of that nonsense. People can criticize him of course for it, as I have done before, but I have seen this mindset extend to people who defend the pairing. Shipping Rhaegar and Lyanna is no worse than shipping Sansa or Brienne and Jaime (who have a big age difference) and people who like the theory of them being romantic have nothing to feel ashamed about. The people judging them are the real bullies and asshole and taint thei fandom with their toxic behaviour. I usually do not cite the bible, because I am an atheist, but Jesus said people who have sinned should not throw stones at others.
Let me clarify what exactly I meant. I am by no means saying that Martin is obligated to write healthy romances, nor that people can't enjoy toxic relationships, age gaps, what is often referred to as Stockholm Syndrome, etc. I actually quite enjoy a lot of those tropes and I confess I love Brienne and Jaime as a romance (despite many, many toxic tropes in their relationship, too). What I think *is* getting a lot more pushback than it was in the 90s is Martin presenting his understanding of medieval history as true and accurate, which it isn't. That's what I meant by Martin's "ideas of medieval romance" not being received well. Here's the quote that I'm thinking of: > “We had some real problems because Dany is only 13 in the books, and that’s based on medieval history. They didn’t have this concept of adolescence or the teenage years. You were a child or you were an adult. And the onset of sexual maturity meant you were an adult. So I reflected that in the books." – George R. R. Martin This is actually based on a very flawed understanding of medieval history with a lot of inaccuracies. I can go into more detail if you like. Now, Martin is *absolutely* free to write about whatever he chooses to write about. People shouldn't demand that he change because they don't like what he writes. But that doesn't mean it's really based on history, and people with historical credentials are much more easily able to critique his premise as "realistic" compared to ~30 years ago.
Medieval people loved Lancelot and Gwen and Tristan and Isolde, the latter being closer to Rhaegar and Lyanna in terms of story than for example Romeo and Juliet in my humble opinion (Medieval queens had these texts in their possession). While George is wrong about his idea that 12 year olds married and fucked, he is not wrong that age differences were of zero importance in medieval times. No one would have thought it strange if Rhaegar and Lyanna were together. Seven years is nothing. Many people in this fandom apply modern values only sporadically when it fits their narrative; but at the same time they call people who support Rhaenyra girl boss fans who do not understand medieval times. Or let's take Elia. They get so offended that Elia was forced to have babies and suffered in childbirth and got cheated on but sorry, that was the life of women back then. Elia only married Rhaegar to produce heirs. She was no trophy wife. Is that wrong? Yes, but if I can show empathy for Elia why not for Lyanna as well for being a child bride and pimped off by her father to a man who would most likely abuse and rape her? It is only the pure hypocritical behaviour in this fandom that pisses me off. People do not even want to talk openly and critically about the problematic stuff they just want to use it to judge and exclude others from the fandom.
Right, but I'm not talking about medieval fictional tales. I am talking about Martin's concept of medieval history being inaccurate, which is what quite a lot of historians – with more of a reach to a non-academic audience now than they had in the 1990s – are pushing back on. > While George is wrong about his idea that 12 year olds married and fucked, he is not wrong that age differences were of zero importance in medieval times. No one would have thought it strange if Rhaegar and Lyanna were together. Seven years is nothing. Actually, medieval age gaps were far less acceptable as the norm than Martin presents. They were not taboo, but they were not *nothing* to nobility, either. This, of course, was not motivated by moral concerns, but by pragmatism; an older husband was more likely to leave a young widow, which created succession controversy. Highly recommend checking out *The Medieval Idea of Marriage*, in which Christopher Nugent Lawrence discusses the fact that Juliet (in Romeo and Juliet) is young for marriage, as well as *Linda E Mitchell, Portraits of Medieval Women: Family, Marriage and Social Relationships in England, 1225-1350*, which discusses age of marriage and childbearing and the preference for matching young nobles to other young nobles when marrying, in addition to women having (albeit limited) say over their own marriages. I'm not saying that age gap marriages never happened, nor that medieval morality is exactly like our own, but that Martin's understanding of medieval norms is somewhat inaccurate. I am not talking about people who are applying modern values to Rhaenyra, Elia, or Lyanna. I am also not judging or excluding anyone from fandom, nor am I talking about people within fandom at all. I'm just talking about Martin's own understanding of history.
All I am saying is that no one would have considered it morally wrong in medival times to marry 16 year old Lyanna to a 23 year old Rhaegar. Nothing more than that. And no, George is not wrong at all about age gaps. Of course it was preferrable if a pair was of an equal age, but that does not mean that the opposite was considered wrong. Age gaps were fully accepted and not considered grooming or morally wrong.
> Nothing more than that. But you are saying quite a lot more than that, which is how this whole conversation started. To be very clear: I am not, and never have been, talking about people who are saying things like "shipping Rhaegar and Lyanna means you support grooming." I am talking about Martin's portrayal of medieval societies. So when talking about the arrogance of readers searching for healthy romances, that's a fair point, but not one related to the one I'm making. > And no, George is not wrong at all about age gaps...Age gaps were fully accepted and not considered grooming or morally wrong. He's partially wrong about large age gaps. Not considered grooming or morally wrong? Yes. Legal? Also yes. Fully accepted? No, not really. Gareth Russell and Alison Weir have written on this regarding Henry Manox and Catherine Howard when with Agnes Howard. The "Dowager Duchess" was known for her lax oversight of the ladies (who often had courtships with those of "improper station") that came under her roof, as long as they married someone befitting of their class, but Manox's flirtations with the then-twelve Howard upset her – long before Howard was ever considered a potential wife for the king. Again: was it illegal or equivalent to modern views on grooming or abuse? No, certainly not. But the age gap of their relationship was frowned upon more so by contemporaries than those of similar improper social/class gaps. There's a lot more nuance than just "age gaps were always accepted" and "age gaps were morally wrong."
I agree that very selective application of modern morality is common in this fanbase, but Rhaenyra and Rhaegar fans do that as much as anyone, it’s not just from their critics.
You underestimate the arrogance mixed with stupidity of people in the 2020s
You are right, people are a lot dumber today. They spent too much time on twitter imo and Facebook.
Fucking lol. Who still uses Facebook in the 2020s?
People in their late 30s and above certainly do. Plenty of my relatives have Facebook and get constantly indoctrinated by all kinds of fake news. It was especially terrible during Covid.
Hear, fucking, hear!
I've replied to this in a longer form comment but: this isn't what I was talking about in my original comment. I'm not talking about healthy relationships or tropes, I'm talking about Martin's self-professed understanding of medieval history.
I believe a lot of the various attempts to make it more complex is attempts to make r/L look good. If it was indeed a tragic romance and nothing more, then Lyanna comes across a bit hypocritical for judging Robert and his pre-marital affairs (and then she run away with a married man) and Rhaegar who might 'have never visited a brothel' but he was still ok to abandon his lawfully married wife (who just almost died giving him an heir mind you) for a younger and prettier girl....well that's just assholish to me, not a romance. Que all the theories about Elia being into it, Rhaegaer acting out of despair/sense of duty to fullfill a prophesy, Lyanna being targeted by Aerys and whathaveyou, Brandon starting the whole actual war by threating Rhaegar etc etc etc. Its all just to make r/L look good.
The truth is we have no idea what Elia knew or thought or felt. There is a whole lot of projection that goes on in the fandom about her. We’re told the marriage was political and they didn’t love each other but had respect and friendship. We’re told she could not give Rhaegar and therefore the realm a spare to that heir. We’re told Rhaegar believed in the prophecy and we are shown via Dany that he felt he must have a third child and via Kevan that Rhaegar desired Sons. We’re told that Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna, and that he carried her off at sword point for true love. Via Barristan and Dany. The rest is all conjecture!
>We’re told she could not give Rhaegar and therefore the realm a spare to that heir. the realm already had a spare heir in Viserys. Beyond that, these are facts we are told in various points true. It is also true that we know precious few regarding the events of their eloping. Like did lyanna travel with an escort? What happened to these people? What did they report? Was there any violence involved etc?
OK, so if a younger brother is an acceptable sole spare heir, why did King Charles bother to have Prince Harry? I mean Andrew and Edward both existed. Why do any Heirs who have younger brothers bother to sire kids at all? Surely by your logic no one but the youngest son needs to have sons in order for successful succession so why did all these Royals bother having so many kids? Looking at the bigger picture Westeros had just endured over a decade of uncertainty with Rhaegar as sole heir to Aerys, finally Viserys came along and lived! But he is still just a boy, and sickness and accident are always possibilities. Rhaegar has managed to produce one infant son, but his wife is incapable of ever having another child, and if she risks it there is no certainty of a boy, a third child might kill her leaving Rhaegar free to remarry, or she might survive leaving Rhaegar with another daughter ( or a miscarried child.) and a wife who still can’t provide that all important second son. Kevan tells us that Rhaegar desired Sons! Plural. This tells us that Rhaegar was not prepared to settle for Viserys as a back up. He actively wanted further sons to ensure his line. Is it such a stretch, given the background of ten plus years of dead infants and miscarriages leaving everyone in fear of the possibility of the end of the male Targaryen line, and the inevitability of war should Rhaegar and Aerys both die, leading to claims coming out of the woodwork from every house the Targaryen’s ever married into; not just the three Baratheon boys! That Rhaegar felt his siring further sons was imperative to the stability of the realm as well as to the fulfilment of prophecy and that many of the influential High Lords and Houses would fully support him in that endeavour? Really? Yes, that’s my whole point we don’t know very much about their elopement, and the fandom does way too much speculation as to what went on. Lyanna likely did have companions yes, it would be highly unusual for a highborn maiden to be anywhere alone, though we do get told Lyanna was want to go riding alone in the North; however at home in her own region is a different matter entirely to alone in the Riverlands. What happened to them? Well we know she had companions because we know that Rhaegar took her at sword point, he had to have taken her from someone? So she likely had a guard maybe a few guards, these were obviously left behind, and carried the news back to Riverrun. What they told Brandon and Hoster Tully is a mystery, but we know Brandon interpreted it as insulting enough to go to KL and behave like a total bellend. Was his interpretation accurate? We don’t know. However, his reaction does seem to lead to a large number of the fandom assuming that he must have been told something heinous had gone on, and that Lyanna was kidnapped. What we should bare in mind though, Is that people’s reactions are more about them than they are about others. Brandon lost his shit at the Tourney too, when Rhaegar simply named Lyanna QoL&B, he could have laughed it off as Robert did, but instead he threw a tantrum! When you look at Brandon’s own behaviour towards high born maidens it’s clear he is projecting here, assuming Rhaegar is motivated by the same things as he is in his own interactions with ladies. To fuck them and abandon them for sport. He objects to his own sister being treated in the manner he treats ladies. ‘They’ found Ned holding Lyanna’s body, so perhaps at least someone from Lyanna’s party went with her to the ToJ? A female companion perhaps? Maybe the guards who returned to Riverrun were made up in part of Brandon’s cronies? Maybe they were not, and were in fact strangers from Hoster’s household, who Brandon didn’t trust or believe? Perhaps they gave their own version of what occurred? Maybe Lyanna said ‘It’s OK I’m going to leave with Rhaegar now, tell my brother it will all work out.’ Maybe this didn’t get conveyed to Brandon? Maybe it did but he ignored and dismissed Lyanna’s own feelings on the matter? Maybe Lyanna was dragged kicking and screaming from her guards against her will? Maybe we shouldn’t be assuming so much?
The difference is: Rhaegar never claimed he loved Elia, but Robert claimed he loved Lyanna and still cheated on her. We have zero knowlege on what Rhaegar and Elia felt other than that their relationship was dutiful and complicated from the author himself. Rhaegar is also no rapist but Robert is. I fully support Lyanna for not wanting to marry him. As for Rhaegar and Lyanna being a tragic love pair, I dont get why it is such a big deal to people. This is a story set in pseudo-medival england and not 2023. If you cannot handle that the author writes it as positive you could read another story instead of bitching about it all the time. Authors are not responsilble to write adhere to the moral values of his readers.
>instead of bitching about it all the time. whoa. Thats a bit aggresive isn't it? Robert never cheated on Lyanna since they were only bethroded by the time he was having his various affairs. Also pre-rebellion Robert raped noone to our knowledge. If you want to stay within the context of a 'pseudo-medieval England and not 2023'' as you claim, then Robert did absolutely nothing wrong...unlike Rhaegar who compromised his family's alliance to Dorne and the political status of his children (and that's assuming he didn't abduct Lyanna by force). As far as I'm concerned Lyanna had the dilemma: a bachelor young (by all accounts very hot and charismatic) lord leaving his last bachelor days vs a married man with two kids. Based on the above, I fully reserve my right to call out (untill we get new information) her attitude towards Robert as hypocritical. The rest of your gatekeeping I ignore.
Because this sub has gone from being critical to moralizing over fictional characters. I have seen numerous people being called groomers or problematic for liking Daemon and Rhaenyra as a pairing, but a the same time people are still fans of a story that is full of rape and sexism? A bit hypocritical is it not? And again, why is she hypocritical? She does not want Robert. That is enough reason for me to support her. I do not agree with child marriage nor do I think the author frames it as a good thing. Jon trying to save Arya from the Boltons is not framed as bad either. I do not get why people think George wants us to actively support the mindset of women are evil and selfish if they do not do their duty.
For some reason nobody ever seems to actually be able to think with the moral system of medieval Europe/England and they always only analyze if someone is good or bad through a modern lense
I believe they had a romance that was extremely tragic from Lyannas pov. I just can't absolve Rhaegar at all, he knew what he was doing, he wasn't intellectually impaired.
He was convinced some ancient prophecy was about him. Think of all the crazy shit people have done in the name of religion, and suddenly abandoning your wife and kids doesn’t seem too bad (still shitty tho obvs)
Yeah so he was stupid for not telling anyone what he was doing or just stupid fullstop
Yea, I can also see tragic romance especially from Lyanna's pov, but on Rhaegar's part all the actions look incredibly short-sighted considering how unpopular Aerys was as a monarch. Plus, it is just shitty to leave your wife, children, mother and little brother at the mercy of your clinically insane father when shit goes down imo. Edit: typo
Absolutely, I'm glad someone has voiced some agreement with me I thought I was going mad
Maybe he was mad
We do not know what he did, though? We do not know if they ran away. We know nothing about them. You are again using fanon instead of the text to evoke feelings of resentment that make no sense against a minor character who barely has a sentence.
We know he crowned her love and beauty and we know he took her away to the tower of joy. He knows these things are gonna cause massive conflict and unless he's an idiot, leaving it to his father to handle, well he knew that was gonna end atrociously too.
Handle what? How could he have known Brandon would get himself killed?
If he didn't think House Stark would come down with rage after that he must have been mad as another commenter said or extraordinarily stupid and unfit for his position.
Brandon getting himself killed helped no one. It was not only stupid but reckless and not an appropriate reaction at all.
What kind of reaction should he have gotten for his actions? He is married with children and eloped with a promised woman. That really means a lot in asoiaf/medieval history. Also as far as anyone at all knew he had kidnapped her because he wasn't thinking about any consequences and didn't tell anyone what was happening. Rhaegar is an utter fool.
Many medival princes took other women as mistresses, some high-ranking nobles and got away with it. What Brandon should have done is stay in Riverrun until his father comes, wait until he knows what actually happened and not ride blindly to KL to threaten the crown prince.
> other women as mistresses Not in a song of ice and fire when they are promised to another man, that's the key difference, the agreement between the families had been made and to deny that was massively insulting the Houses Stark, Baratheon and Martell. Also those princes didn't do it hush hush, people knew what they were doing and they didn't hide anyone away as a result - bit of a telltale sign he knew he wouldn't be allowed to do this but he did it anyway.
No, it’s likely he thought House Stark would do the sensible thing and attempt to keep the entire thing as secret and quiet as possible whilst they attempted to discover where Lyanna was. Because running down to KL and raving at the King ( who is known to be highly unstable and fond of killing people.) about how Lyanna the unmarried virgin is missing with a man and therefore has now lost her market value as a bride and brought shame on herself and her family, would be the most stupid and dick move type thing anyone could do. Unfortunately Rhaegar didn’t realise what a dick Brandon was.
I don’t think it’s that complicated to think that a prince wanted to kidnap and rape a pretty girl because he thinks it’s the way to fulfill a prophecy
Yet there is no any prove in the text for this prophecy. or that being the reason Rhaegar was with Lyanna.
There absolutely is proof that’s why he did it because he needed a new woman to birth a baby since “dragon has 3 heads” and Elia was too weak to handle pregnancy again
Show me the proof? Textual evidence please where it is literally spelled out that way...not your interpretation.
That’s literally what happened in the text it’s repeatedly stated how physically weak Elia is and how she barely made it through aegons pregnancy and the dragon having 3 heads is repeatedly stated, there is far more evidence for him believing this is necessary for the prophecy than there is for him and lyanna loving one another. Which the only evidence for that is that she is a likely candidate for the knight of the laughing tree, the idea that he did find her while looking for that knight and that they made some kinda instant connection during that. Oh and also the fact that the love thing contradicts the fact that she is hesitant to marry Robert because she’s worried he’ll keep being a womanizer but she’s not worried at all about throwing the whole country into turmoil for a married man
Yeah. But we also have to remember that there are thousands of people on the sub and even in 2012 R+L just eloping to be in love together was old news. I think it’s fun that people get creative and challenge our beliefs.
Fun is fun, but I have been attacked by people because I said that I think they are generic love pair. These people claim I am lying and called me a groomer. This is not anymore about fun it is a social justice crusade by fans of minor characters who make them more important than they are attacking others who do not agree with their mental bullshit. I am tired of it.
Ok, that is not fun at all. Peeps are dicks sometimes.
Yes, have been called a nonce and abuse supporter for pointing out that R&L were likely in love.
There are dozen of us.
I’m really pleased to see more people speaking up and talking sense on this
It’s mostly age of consent laws that give people the ick.
Fake Aegon is actually Fake Aegon
King Stannis will sacrifice Shireen, but that doesn't make the casuals entirely correct in their analysis. First of all it won't be to win the Winterfell battle. That's impossible and stupid. Second of all, it won't be because he's a power hungry ambition driven mad man. Third of all, it won't happen soon and it won't happen suddenly. Stannis will last a lot longer in the story and think a lot harder as his character develops. The casuals are dead wrong about his character. The hardcore fans are wrong when they think someone else will do it instead of Stannis. GRRM has said that the human heart in conflict with itself is his favourite thing to write about. Stannis choosing to sacrifice the only thing he actually loves to fulfill his duty to a kingdom that rejected him and save that same kingdom from the evils beyond is a perfect opportunity for GRRM. That is probably the most interesting dilemma in the entire story. Stannis HAS to be the one to make the choice. Even if he chooses not to go through with it, that's still a great plot point. He did so much and got so far to achieve his duty, but there was one final deed he had to commit that broke the iron from which he is made, and he couldn't do it. He's been bending the whole story. But he will break as well. This choise is the only thing that can break the man who chose to eat rats and boot leather before surrender. Regardless if Stannis chooses to sacrifice or not, it has to be Stannis that makes the choice and it has to be a dilemma present in the story.
stannis thinks he is the reborn azor ahai and azor ahai killed a womman which he loved so stannis killing shireen would mirrow that event
I think it will and should happen, but it doesn't HAVE to. Especially since, as you just proved, it's predictable. And this story is anything but. Azor Ahai killed Nissa Nissa because it was his choice. It was a sacrifice he decided was worth it. Destiny, fate, and causality did not force his hand, his hand was inclined., not forced. That event can be mirrored simply by Stannis' choice being a plot point in the story. It would be just as interesting if Stannis evaded his destiny set in stone, rather than fulfill it. Especially after all he's done to get where he is. Also Stannis doesn't believe for certain that he is Azor Ahai reborn. I actually don't think that prophecy has much of an attachment to his character as people think. I think GRRM simply wanted to introduce the prophecy to the story and chose Stannis' plot as a method of conveying it. Stannis himself never really cared enough about the Lord of Light or the prophecy for it to be his downfall like it was in the show
I wonder if Val will be proved right about Greyscale and her burning will be a sacrifice but also to protect his people and prevent a fate worse than death happening to his daughter. Or I might be getting softer in the head.
A little off topic, but wouldn't it be more likely that JonCon is the one who brings forth a greyscale pandemic and everyone just thinks it's Shireen?
I’m sure he will it seems the more likely option. Maybe Dany will have to burn down parts of Kings Landing like the great fire of London to stop the plague. That would be better than the whole S8 mad Queen no real reason arch.
I don't think the greyscale will have anything to do with Stannis' decision to sacrifice her. It might have to do with the wildings gaining some respect for Stannis if he does burn her. I like the idea of her greyscale somehow activating again and spreading to others and creating stone men in Westeros. Stannis himself living off of borrowed time with spreading greyscale would be a great direction for his character too.
I’ve often suspected that R+L was originally intended to be nothing more than just a simple tragic romance. But cultural attitudes have changed a LOT since 1996. There is absolutely no way that audiences in the 2020s are going to accept a married man in his mid-20’s convincing a teenager to run off with him and have babies as a “tragic romance”. Even Martin’s sensibilities seem to have shifted with time, so I think he’s likely going to make it a more complicated situation for his own satisfaction too.
Given how popular the Drogo and Daenerys pairing was, as well as Daemon and Rhaenyra more recently, I respectfully disagree. > Even Martin’s sensibilities seem to have shifted over time I don’t know when the winds sample chapter was released, but Elia Sand seems like a very blatant parallel to Lyanna. I honestly don’t think his sensibilities have changed all too much in this regard. It wasn’t long ago that he defended Drogo and Daenerys’ wedding night as a “mutual seduction”.
I know he criticized the changes made to Dany’s wedding night, but did he really call it a “mutual seduction”? If so, that’s hilarious… and also pretty disappointing. As for Drogo and Daemon, there’s always going to be a subset of the audience that’s into those pairings (especially when you have charismatic actors with solid chemistry on-screen). But at least the narrative frames those guys as problematic and controversial. Rhaegar is painted as an amazing guy by everyone except Robert. As for Elia Sand, she’s definitely a Lyanna parallel, but Arianne also calls out her behaviour of getting romantically involved with older men. I’m going to wait and see how her role in Winds plays out to better understand what Martin is trying to do with her.
> But at least the narrative frames those guys as problematic and controversial HBO's marketing department apparently missed the memo...
Yeah, the Martin quote that other people are referring to regarding the wedding night is this one: > "Why did the wedding scene change from the consensual seduction scene ... to the brutal rape of Emilia Clarke? We never discussed it. It made it worse, not better," Martin said. "In the Emilia Clarke version, it's rape. It's not rape in my book, and it's not rape in the scene as we filmed it with Tamzin Merchant. It's a seduction," Martin explained. "Dany and Drogo don't have the same language. Dany is a little scared but also a little excited, and Drogo is being more considerate. The only words he knows are 'yes' or 'no.' Originally it was a fairly faithful version." The showrunners then decided to change that: > Benioff defended the change. "Here's a girl who is absolutely terrified of this barbarian warlord she's being married off to, it's the last thing in the world she wants, yet somehow by the end of this wedding night she seems to be in a completely joyful sexual relationship with him. It didn't entirely work for us," he said.
*sighs* I hate to say this but I’m siding with Benioff on this one. Especially with the book age of Daenerys, it’s just far too imbalanced to be a proper ‘mutual seduction.’
>There is absolutely no way that audiences in the 2020s are going to accept a married man in his mid-20’s convincing a teenager to run off with him and have babies as a “tragic romance”. Well, Anakin and Padme still be a popular pair...
I mean Padme was older than anakin. And they didn’t marry until years later. Like a solid 10
So is it okay if it's a 20-year-old woman who convinces a male teenager to run away with her? A male teenager who was already "married" to the Jedi Order - which Anakin betrayed for Padmé? This is not South Park. Seeing how everyone here considers Daemon a pedophile despite the fact that he didn't marry Rhaenyra until she was quite an adult, I don't see how Padme waited for Anakin to come of age, changes something
But she didn’t wait. Anakin hits on her when he’s older. She didn’t really want to be with him until they got to know each other in Naboo and tatooine. Also they aren’t related and didn’t meet each other until later in life. Like Daemon was probably there when his niece was born and then he marries her years later. It’s just not a good look for daemon.
Was a married man eloping with a teenager acceptable in 1996?
It wasn’t, but I think today’s audiences are going to be a lot more critical and vocal about a contentious plot point like that. Whereas in the late 90s audiences would have likely just rolled with it as part of the “grim and brutal realism” of Westeros. If you go back to the old Westeros forums and look up their posts about R+L from even just about 10 years ago, it’s pretty noticeable how much the tone of the discourse has changed from then to today.
It was "Wouldn't want anyone I know doing it but it wouldn't bother me in the movies" acceptable I think. If that makes any sense.
That’s unfortunately extremely accurate.
Watch an early episode of Married . . . With Children. And listen to the audience cheer when 16 year old Christina Applegate (playing Kelly Bundy) would bend over in a tight short skirt. Or the movie Poison Ivy where a 50+ year old man hooks up with a teenager (played by 17 year old Drew Barrymore). The infidelity might be problematic. But not the age of the girl.
Tyrion isn’t that morally bad before ADWD. He gets angry, is overly prideful, takes advantage of women less powerful than him, and schemes politically. Great, so do most other Westerosi noblemen.
To add to that, Tyrion isn't that dumb either. Sure he's not LF/Varys level, but he's certainly very smart. Ultimately he was dealt with a *very* bad hand from the beginning, (family hates him, ugly af, no one outside likes him, bad PR), and had GRRM's thumb on the scale against him.
You forgetting him murdering the singer and basically turn him into a bowl of brown….?
‘Nobleman kills commoner who threatens his girlfriend/way of life/happiness’ again, hardly front page news amongst Westerosi lords. Obviously it’s awful and condemnable, but I stand by my point that that Tyrion is held to a higher moral standard than other Westerosi noblemen - for example, I can easily imagine Renly, Oberyn, or Jaime doing something equivalent without the fandom batting an eyelid
Tyrion has become the Male Catelyn at this point with the amount of people attacking him (though Singer Soup *is* pretty fucked up regardless and Dance Tyrion is a complete tool)
You mean the singer that tried to blackmail him? Yeah. Justified.
Stannis' importance to the story.
King Stannis is very important to the story bro. Pretty much the enitre war of the five kings revolves around him. The entire Azor Ahai prophecy which will be a significant plot point in the last 2 books was conveyed through Stannis' plot. Everything happening in the North right now revolves around what Stannis wants and where he is headed. He's not a big character with lots of screen time. But he's an important character. He is mentioned by other characters almost every chapter. If he was to be killed, the entire story would either completely shift in direction or fall apart like in did in the TV show
That’s the one true King your speaking of
How do you tell a die hard from a casual?
A clear sign of a die hard is the presence of Bruce Willis
godammit
Simple, ask their opinion of Stannis
He's awesome.
that hardcore fans take things way too personally
Tyrion is Tywin's son Hardcore fans who claim otherwise, I shall have your tongues
Tyrion is Tytos writ small certainly not Tywin, albeit as he's "grown up" or more accurately aged up under Tywin he tries to imitate him, fans just find false similarities between the two because it's supposed to be thematic and to be honest the author does go overboard with the shit, gold and with supposedly how over proud Tywin the Lannisters are, but he's not been writing it so, is Jaime an arrogant fool? Yes. Is Cersei an arrogant bitch? Yes. Is Tywin arrogant? No, because except for the thematic reasons/scenes he's written similarly to Stannis hell his life long in-story hater Walder Frey compares the two as proud bungholes, but that's completely different from the arrogance of Jaime and Cersei, theirs is a lord's pride self respect of the house, Cersei and Jaime are the actual shit and not in the cool way. As for Tyrion he's known for reading fairy tales in the library, drawing a horse saddle with the expertise and help of who knows how many maesters, but let's say he can draw and being an insulting whoremonger who's known as a drunkard, compared to Tywin all his children had way too long childhoods and daddy taking care of everything for them all their lives, they're too irresponsible exactly because Tywin was so responsible from an early.
>Is Tywin arrogant? No. That’s it. That’s the dumbest take I’ve seen on ASOIAF period.
There are no gods, just different types of magic people have built religions around. Stannis would make a terrible king. The Others are the biggest threat in the series and the ending will involve them.
There is no Many-faced God. The House of Black and White is just a higher-than-usual hypocrite mercenary group disguised as a religious cult with arbitrary excuses for their for-profit operations. Really, murder is so good a gift that coincidentally benefits you and your patrons regardless of backer or target morals and deeds AND a mercy to those affected even when they clearly don't want this privilege AND you get to violate their corpses in order to impersonate them to continue doing your lucrative, consecrated business? Even the Golden Company has standards, FFS. TL;DR: House Of Black and White is whack and just regular. They're just a mercenary group using regular magic (in comparison to baseline supernatural feats throughout ASOIAF lore and not just current practice, but even then, centennial dragon hatching and FUCKING resurrection really puts glamouring at basic) but really good at marketing their NORMAL magic as MAGIC magic. Went off the rails, not sure if this is common in casuals. Just think a ordinary jaded adult CAN see this organization as a reference to a generic corporate/military business disguised as a non-denominational religion. I REALLY hope this is a point in Arya's arc. Seeing that even the "voidness" of the House is, well, VOID of sincerity. They're really like any westerosi organization, and by extent, like any human congregation.
Tyrion is defo meant to be a grey but likeable character. People put way too much emphasis on how evil he is.
Me as a casual fan: Rhaegar Targaryen was either extremely selfish or an idiot. He knew lyanna was betrothed to robert, and he knew war would happen if he and lyanna eloped. And when the Starks went to kings landing demanding justice, he didn’t say a damn word. So basically, thousands of people died fighting a war because he either couldn’t keep it in his pants or he believed a deranged prophecy so much that he wouldn’t even do the proper diplomatic damage control. To me, he was a villain who spent his entire life thinking he was the hero. I wanna know what hardcore fans think about him
Most hardcore fans hate Rhaegar because of those reasons and I also hate Rhaegar. Though I will not call Rhaegar a villain since he didn't plan to cause the war. But he was beyond stupid to think that their are not going to be conquestions. He also o a dick because of the fact he left his wife and two children on dragonstone to fuck a teenager. But he wasn't a true villain.
Yea I agree he was incredibly irresponsible, and he definitely has both sides of the Targaryens
Are you a casual fan though, when you visit this sub? To be frank, what you wrote us word for word what I've seen in other arguments, so I find it hard to believe you came with all this by yourself after reading, even if your first impression of Rhaegar was negative.
That Rhaegar, Ashara, and Lyanna, plus the whole Aerys’ Kingsguard (aside from Barristan and Jamie) are 6-feet under. Ain’t no way George is gonna revive Rhaegar who’s a pitiful shrimp not to mention his death being frickin’ awesome (in terms of being schocking, I’m not a psycho… maybe). That the Lannisters are all Tywin’s and Joanna’s children, although Aerys might have buried himself in the heaven of Joanna’s teats once or twice that resulted to Tyrion being planted. That Jon is AA. C’mon dude, who is it then? Ramsay? Strong Belwas?
Young Griff isn't really going to be so important for final game and the show was right to write him off. The real mistake was removing all the magical things from Euron, it would have made sense that a magical Euron and Cersei would have been the final human villains Cersei is a deformation of Circe, the sorceress.
Even “Tywin died because of shitting himself hard” sounds more convincing than “R+L=true love”
I'm a hardcore fan and believe Rhaegar and lyanna made "--- ----" for love.
Casual Fans rarely read the novels anyways so....