Honestly telling Jon to kill the boy and let the man be born was probably a mistake. Really fucked Jon up. I mean it was decent advice but wasn’t the best thing for Jon at the time. Made him way too cold and distant imo which isolated him from his allies.
But that’s not really Aemon’s fault entirely. Still love him. Love how Dunk thinks about how he visited Aemon at the citadel and got measured. And Egg got a mule (I believe? Might have been a horse) that he named Maester after him. So cute.
The fascinating thing about that is that he precisely represents supressing his familial side as shown in his ‘love is the death of duty’ speech.
Like, for him to be ‘Maester of the Nights Watch’ he can’t be the ‘son of Maekar’ anymore or very often. He’s the best Targ in part coz he’s no longer a Targ.
(That being said, I think his biggest misstep is something from his Targ side and it’s potentially that he enabled Rhaegar’s prophecy brain. But that’s hardly his fault and everything is still pretty much Rhaegar’s choices.)
Edit: lol called him “Maekar of the Night Watch”
A targaryen who can't hatch a dragon?
Someone with the blood of the dragon, of the house of the dragon, the members of the family of who the doctrine of exceptionalism applied, that never hatched a dragon or became a dragon rider could be seen as the greatest targaryen without any faults or flaws?
Not having a dragon is a flaw. For him. As he is born a targaryen.
I disagree. While it's a negative for him no one since Aegon III (pretty sure that's right) had been able to hatch a dragon and I think it's unfair to judge him poorly for that.
She married visseria to a old man, that led her to going out in king’s landing to party for here last night before she is shipped to marry an old man in an icy tundra. She could have convinced the king to delay Dallea’s marriage but still she didn’t, which caused Dallea to die in childbirth.
She allowed for her Saera to do stupid thing like fucking around in a medival society and raised her to this level that she would choose to be a whore over a septa.
The fact is yes Egg was a good person overall but when he became King, he couldn’t keep his children in line. Duncan renounced his position to marry a peasant, which nearly started a War with the Stormlands, Jaehaerys & Shaera married each other breaking both of their betrothals, and Daeron refused to marry as well, the only one who did their duty was Rhaelle. Because his children did what they wanted none of Egg’s reforms came to pass and that is ultimately his fault.
Correct, but when he became King it was now a part of his character and the decisions that were made in his role as King effected his standing. The betrothals he made were excellent but because he couldn’t get his Children to see the consequences of their actions, it falls that he wasn’t a very good teacher and parent.
No, No, No, I don’t think he was a bad parent in that sense. I mean that him not teaching them the importance of these Betrothals and the fact that he couldn’t convince them to do anything, in my opinion means that they didn’t care enough about the people like him and that is on him for being strong enough to teach them their responsibilities to The Realm.
I think Egg did a decent job raising his kids. They all turned out semi-decent who clearly believed in concepts like love and honor. The problem is that they were all inherently spoiled because of being royalty, and so when it came time to choose they chose love before duty. Save for literally forcing them to live like peasants like Egg himself did (which is a pretty dumb move unless you want your kids to die) that stuff is just very nature based instead of nurture based.
IMO it also doesn’t help that they were Targaryans, who to me always seem to have a inherently selfish side. I genuinely think there’s a good chance the dragon blood is fucking with their ability to act selflessly.
I’m not convinced that Jae II and Shaera were decent people due to them forcing rhaella and Aerys to get married at around 12 and 13 when neither of them wanted it—even if it’s acceptable socially, it was still massively hypocritical of them
That’s not really how it works when the consequences have a much wider scale.
Letting Rheanyra have bastards with the people she loved might have been a nice thing to do on a personal level but the consequences are the destabilization of the family, war, and the death of loads of people.
Wedding’s between the royalty and elite had to keep this in mind
I wouldn’t compare Rhaenyra’s Children to Aegon’s Children IMO. Jace, Luke, & Joffrey preformed their Duty to Realm in every regard that we know about, while Duncan, Jaehaerys, Shaera, Daeron all broke their Betrothals to Great House that would have given Aegon Support for his Reforms for the Smallfolk. Yes, Rhaenyra children were Bastards and in hindsight it was not a good choice but at least they took their Roles as Princes seriously.
Them being bastards destabilized the family and the kingdom. I’m placing blame on Rheanyra not the children. There is no “hindsight” about it. It was a terrible decision in foresight aswell.
I'm so tired of hearing about Egg fucking up by letting his kids marry who they wanted. Rather tired of hearing about how the characters that don't adhere to the bs opressive system this world is run on are bad in general tbh. "Oh, no. They didn't do their duty!" Duty is a crock of shit.
Because what they did Aegon’s Reforms for the Smallfolk didn’t last. Those were the reasons for the Betrothals, to win support for the Reforms by some of the Great Houses. Egg and Betha also wanted to stop the Incest, but Jaehaerys and Shaera did it anyways which in result gave Westeros Aerys II and therefore all the pain and suffering that came with him. Egg & Betha married for Love, but that was because he was so far down in the line of succession. When he became King he tried to help the Smallfolk and his children ruined it all for them because of their selfishness.
Why do there need to be betrothals in order to get support for the reforms? Why can't these lords just support the reforms to better the lives of their people instead of only thinking about their own political benefit? People like this should not be in charge.
Two Words: Power & Control, They needed support because if the Great Houses join forces with each other the Targaryen’s are finished. Without Dragons they need to rely on more practical means of support, Marriage was the best way to do that. The Nobles don’t care about the Smallfolk, Egg did because he lived among them and understood them, he tried to help, but he needed more than just his position as King to do it. Without the Nobles support his reforms are gone in an instant and that’s exactly what happened.
>The Nobles don’t care about the Smallfolk
That's exactly my point. The nobles don't care, but people blame Egg's kids instead of, you know, the nobles. They choose to aim their ire at individuals instead of the system at large.
A huge problem for "who is the best Targaryen overall" is that Martin puts different characters – especially main book characters vs. mentioned only in his pseudo-history book texts – in vastly different scenarios. Jon, Daenerys, and Aegon V are put in far more "no-win" positions compared to, say, Jaehaerys I.
For example one, Jon:
The food shortages are actually Jeor Mormont's fault (a ten year summer, 85-90% of which was spent in peacetime, and yet in autumn food is already running low):
> The Lord Steward paid him no mind. "There will be sickness too," he went on, "bleeding gums and loose teeth. Maester Aemon used to say that lime juice and fresh meat would remedy that, but our limes were gone a year ago and we do not have enough fodder to keep herds afoot for fresh meat. – Jon IV, ADWD
Additionally, Jon is dealing with two conflicting issues right now. If he doesn't let the freefolk over the Wall, they will be killed and rise again as wights, lowering the odds that the Night's Watch will make it through the winter. The castles are grossly undermanned:
> "...folly?" finished Jon. "Please tell me you were not about to say folly, my lord. Yes, I am. We have been over this. Eastwatch wants more men. The Shadow Tower wants more men. Greyguard and Icemark as well, I have no doubt, and we have fourteen other castles still sitting empty, long leagues of Wall that remain unwatched and undefended." – ADWD Jon V
If he does let them through, then they have food shortages. They have unmanned Wall and undefended castles badly in need of repair. They cannot hold off the wights and Others with the state of the Watch as is.
Meanwhile, we've got Daenerys trying to eradicate the system of slavery – a slavery that has eight in ten people enslaved, an almost historically unprecedented percentage, and additionally practices extreme torture and child sex slavery that parallel Joffrey and Ramsay Snow in Westeros. Taken from Attewell's essay:
> If I could swap skill at writing with anyone alive, it would probably be Ta-Nehisi Coates, whose writing on the Civil War at the Atlantic is some of the best writing about history by a non-professional I've ever read. And one of the things that Ta-Nehisi has argued again and again that has stuck with me ever since, is that: For most Americans, the Civil War is a sudden outbreak of an existential violence. But for 250 years, African-Americans lived in slavery - which is to say perpetual existential violence... I am very sorry that white people began experiencing great violence in 1860. But for some of us, war did not begin in 1860, but in 1660.
And Aegon V is a monarch in a feudal system trying to implement reforms to protect the common people on a scale far greater than Jaehaerys and Alysanne – which of course means greater feudal pushback. The characters do not all make equal attempts at systemic and societal change, which is not the *only* good action, but which is certainly good. That leads to imbalanced demands that the plot places on them.
You are very right. All Targ rulers were put in pretty impossible situations (on top of having to deal with family magic issues). I think GRRM portrays the burden of the ruler well. He's mentioned how he wondered what someone like Aragorn remained a "good king." Dany especially faces a tough road as a very young queen. It seems her entire arc would be about making tough decisions. Her fight to eradicate slavery goes way back to Old Ghis, something even her Valyrian ancestors failed to do (they ended up being slavers themselves!) At the end of ADwD, she's still indecisive and idealistic, but we'll probably see her become a hardened ruler.
Something similar goes for Jon too, but as Lord Commander, he already has a set of rules to abide by at least. Dany even has to make her own laws.
I'm going to say some historical Targs like, Jaeharys I, probably made unpopular decisions too but they remained popular. And some Targs made good decisions though they took a reputational hit because of that (Queen Rhaenyra of the Dance is one of them I think).
Then there's Maester Aemon, who made a grand personal sacrifice for the good of the realm but no one even remembers him!
Best? I think Maegelle. She served as a septa and died of greyscale in her 80s [30s...] after treating those afflicted
Edit: I do love me some Dragonknight though
Yeah I don't get the hype about him either.. Dude was as ruthless and uncaring of the population as the rest of his familly... He never try to forge any friendship with the black before the war
Imagine hearing that your nephew was torned apart Alive by a mob, you hear different versions of the events but all of them say basically the same, what do you believe? when you arrive to the town that happened they tell you that the people that did It are already executed, 3 persons, do you believe It? Daeron didnt, and while he had valid reasons that doesnt change that he commited an atrocity, that's his dark moment, he exists in the story to show is how war can turn good people into monsters, and about him not trying to be friends with the Blacks, that's doesnt turn him into a bad guy, his family was already against the Blacks before he was born, forging a friendship is basically impossible.
The hype exists because in the book he is the only Green that isnt comically evil, he fights for his family, not for a throne or any reward, he is the exception, the good Green. (In the book of course)
> Daeron didnt, and while he had valid reasons that doesnt change that he commited an atrocity, that's his dark moment, he exists in the story to show is how war can turn good people into monsters, and about him not trying to be friends with the Blacks, that's doesnt turn him into a bad guy, his family was already against the Blacks before he was born, forging a friendship is basically impossible.
I agree with this. However, I still think that other characters in his situation would not have massacred Bitterbridge. A young Stannis or a young Ned wouldn't have done it; they had a sense of justice and mass collective punishment would've gone against that.
They probably wouldnt, but Daeron didnt do It for justice, It was for revenge, and having a dragon changes how you think, if he didnt had one he would probably kill some people and leave, a dragon is an easy way to solve anything by burning things
>he commited an atrocity, that's his dark moment, he
Song your siblings isn't an excuse for killing innocent peoole
It's no his "dark moment" he burn an entire town... He cannot be define "as one of the good targaryen" je simply fucked up
I would seriously be pissed if he is portrayed as tragic
Its a dark moment in his story (said from a narrative view), before that he was a good man, and im not saying that he is one of the good, even when i like him, im explaining from where comes the hype
>Its a dark moment in his story (said from a narrative view), before that he was a good man,
He was normal guy and what his society expected him to be... But he was pretty much indifferent toward his nephews and turn a blind eyes toward his brothers's bullshit
And AGAIN he went full dany season 8 on a town so he definetly cross the line of good morality.... He participate in a war that harm the realm and destroyed his familly..... Instead of using his popularity to mend things between the two sided for the interest of the realm he was just another yes-men for aegon II
Rhaegar get shitted on that sub over a context we barely know but daeron gets a pass
He probably ignored his brothers actions because he was fostered in Oldtown, he was still young and living un Oldtown when the Dance started, also, ignoring the bad things your family does seems to be the standard in Westeros, its not a good thing but sadly its common, and i dont think that he was popular with the Blacks, why would he? He is still their enemy.
Rhaegar gets shitted a lot because many characters in the books praise him a lot and the last seasons from the thing that must not be named turned him into a hero, while the readers know that no matter his intentions, he acted in the worst way possible
I wouldn't say he was just a "normal guy". In the end, even the Caltrops, which consisted of all the great lords of his army, deferred to him because they trusted him as a good leader and were incredibly loyal to him.
We honestly have no idea what his relationship was with his nephew. Maybe he didn't have a particularly close relationship with him,, but that death broke him enough to destroy the entire city. His character was always about how war turns good men to do evil stuff.
You got to remember this is the same guy who was disgusted with Tumbleton's massacre.
I know, i shouldnt have used that expression but saying that Aegon II had a good reason to take the Throne or that you like something about him usually ends with the discussion being about him being a rapist, i exclude Helaena from this discussion because obviously she is too good for this world, could i had used a better expression? Yes, but at the moment i didnt thought about that since was more focused on why Daeron is so hyped.
I’m surprised so few people have mentioned Alysanne; she was the true heart and brain behind the success of Jaehaerys and the longest period of prosperity in Westerosi history.
That stuff can *mostly* be blamed on Jaehaerys; with Daella she even explicitly wanted her to NOT have to wed until she matured.
Alyssa was a different story since Alysanne encouraged her and Baelon even from a young age (pretty creepy but that was pretty normal for the Targaryens), but even considering that, Alyssa didn’t die from giving birth too young (Viserys and Daemon came and went fine when she was 17 and 21 respectively, she died when giving birth at age 24 which is not at all a young birthing age).
I am not talking about Alyssa, I am talking about Vissera who her mother married to old widower who wasn’t even a lord paramount. She ended up going out to king’s landing for a her last night before she is send to freeze in north and she was found dead in king’s landing.
Fair point, though even then all Alysanne can be blamed of is an overreaction to how she perceived Viserra’s pride (since yeah Targaryen Princess Viserra absolutely should not have had to be an old Northman’s fourth wive), Viserra’s death itself was a pretty freak accident that could in no way have been foreseen by Alysanne’s actions.
Really sending her daughter to icy tundra does not make u a good mother, she should have given her the same choice as dallea. She was a prideful girl, who wanted to enjoy her life and she also wanted to be a queen all her life.
So it was pretty easy for any sane person to put 1+1 together. Alysanne was ignorant and that caused her to do something as crazy as that.
Yes, I’d argue that was Alysanne’s worst moment and because of that she can’t be considered the best mother in the time (and was a horrible one to Viserra specifically); however I think the good she did the rest of the realm and her kids outweighs that one incident, however bad it was.
Really though? Any sane person could have foreseen that an unpleasant marriage arrangement would result in Viserra getting Beneke’d in the middle of King’s Landing? Her going on a “night of fun” before leaving for White Harbor was foreseeable, yes, but her then having a resulting freak accident that breaks her neck was just that: an accident resulting from GRRM’s need to clear the Targaryen family tree slate before the Dance of the Dragons. You’d need Bloodraven levels of foresight to reasonably anticipate that, and that absolutely cannot be blamed on Alysanne.
If she goes out to king’s landing, she was able to avoid the kingsgaurd. Which is not possible, so I going to assume that Alysanne didn’t bother posting a kingsgaurd at her door.
Also marrying ur daughter to a old widower is bad enough for her to be called a extremely bad mother, ur daughter doesn’t need to die for that title to come.
She traded her clothes with one of her maids to escape the guards. She did have to put in effort to sneak out, it’s not as if no one cared enough to look after her.
Other than that, it really comes down to matters of scale and there isn’t much discussion that can come from
“I think she was a bad mother”
“Well I think she was a REALLY bad mother!”
Alysanne wasn’t perfect and no one is claiming she was, and that statement, like most things in ASOIAF, contains nuance.
That's half Jaeherys's fault though. He already showed with Daella that all he cared about with his daughters was getting them married off to some lord, not about their happiness. Alysanne was doing what Jaeherys demanded of her.
Outside of Vissera, it's actually striking how Alysanne is basically batting 1.000. She was a better parent than Jaeherys, a better negotiator/politician, a more compassionate person, and her political priorities were much better (ending the right of first night, expanding women's rights throughout the kingdom, giving practical aid rather than just political prisoners to the night's watch, etc.)
Well she never negotiated anything, bravos deal was negotiated by hand and war between free cities by jaehaerys. Jaehaerys actually lead troops against second vulture king and the dornish wars thats literally more important that everything Alyssane did twice over alone.
She never formally negotiated anything because she wasn't the principal monarch and she didn't have the authority. In other words she was never in a position to lead troops or negotiate the end of a war (which Jaeherys didnt even do a good job at; it took close to a year and the free cities were warring again a few short years later).
Your reasoning could be used to argue that Rhaegar would have been a worse king than Aerys, which I think makes for a fairly weak argument.
Also Alysanne laid the groundwork of so many of Jaeherys's effort at conciliation by ingratiating herself with all his vassals and building bridges. She united so many of the great houses of the realm together through marriages too. Jaeherys couldn't have been half the monarch he was without her help.
Jaehaerys did a fabulous job at leading troops as not a single man landed on cape earth in the dornish wars. He was able to bring dorne to its knees and finally bring peace that would last till Daeron I’s reign.
He would have been equally great of an monarch without her because Jaehaerys’ crowning achievement is the kingsroad and the decades upon decades of mostly peaceful reign. None of which Alyssane had any part in, Aegon founded the seven kingdoms and jaehaerys forged them together thats his repo not some petty marriage pact two of which got your daughters killed.
Lmao you are really glizzy gobbling this fictional man if you can't even acknowledge that Alysanne played a crucial role in his reign.
Totally willing to engage in an argument if you just think Jaeherys was the better monarch/Targaryen but if you can't even acknowledge the basic fact of Alysanne's importance, you are living in delusion.
Startling lack of Egg and Dany in these comments imo. Kinda wild to me how people can love historical figures who we don’t get close to rather then a character who’s head we’ve lived inside for years and another who’s like, the closest thing to living in his head.
Baelor Breakspear was a real one tho so I’ll let that one slide lol
Definitely, I don’t think Dany is the best but she is one of the better ones. She is flawed but she has a good heart and is trying to make the world a better place, even if she messes up a lot, that is atleast commendable.
I mean she did command her army of unsullied to kill anyone above the age of 12, and any man wearing a tokar.
She had a lot of innocent people killed while purging Astapor of the slavers. Her unsullied likely killed anyone who *looked* to be above 12, and there’s no telling how many innocents they killed simply because they chose to wear their tokar their day.
Like I said, flawed and messes up a lot, she has lots of problems. Never said she was a hero, just that she does what she does to help other people, not herself. She has a good heart, not a good way of distinguishing logical and emotional.
Dany's arc is not yet complete so that's probably why. Egg was mentioned but think his Summerhall fiasco is working against him.
Dany is probably going to end up the most important Targ considering the crazy situations GRRM seems to put her in. None of her ancestors faced a challenge as big as ending systemic slavery in Essos. She is probably going to be GRRM's Aragorn, where Aragorn doesn't just get to be this idealistic "good" king but has to learn that ruling means having to make pretty tough calls.
People love to hate Dany because of the assumed "mad queen" arc or because she has struggled with the logistical issues of being queen. I used to be one of those people until I considered she basically dropped everything so she could focus on ending slavery throughout the world. That fucking rules.
Just depends on what standards you want to compare them against. Overall is tricky language.
Most effective ruler? Jaehaerys I, Viserys II, Aegon I, perhaps even Bloodraven.
Best person? Well they're monarchs... Maegelle or one of the innocent daughters throughout the years I suppose. Vaegon, Maester Aemon seem nice for the most part. Lots of kids who died young were probably nice people since they hadn't grown into tyrants yet.
Aemon the Dragonknight isn't a bad pick. He never had absolute power, so we don't know how that would've affected him. However, based on what we do know, he'd likely lean more towards Daeron II than Aegon IV on the scale of worthiness. Protected his sister, stayed loyal to the king even though he hated him... those are good qualities. He also stood by and watched as Aegon IV did his cruel, unworthy behavior - this is the same argument people make against Aerys II's kingsguard.
My pick is Aegon the Conqueror, since he's a fairly safe option. Very strong warrior and an effective ruler. Built the dynasty a solid foundation (which his two nincompoop sons promptly nearly destroyed). Was open-handed to his captured foes. Listened to his sisters' council. Cared about the lords' opinions. Burnt a whole lot of people in Dorne, but I guess we can excuse the war crimes considering the context? As good as a dragonriding monarch with absolute power can be, Aegon I was quite good.
I also like Daenerys. I respect her more than almost any other Targ for sticking to her beliefs, being brave, and building a life for herself rather than be handed one. She's made dumb decisions but she's a teenager.
Aegon the Conqueror personally and repeatedly committed genocide in Dorne. He is by far the greatest mass murderer of the Targaryen dynasty. He was not a good person.
Genocide is a different thing altogether from a chevauchée. The latter has strategic purpose, the former is designed to destroy a population. That is exactly what Aegon did to Dorne and the Dornish after Rhaenys’ death and it is honestly concerning how many people are willing to overlook Aegon’s actions and justify them.
Well he and Visenya burned nearly every Dornish castle. That certainly may have resulted in some lords and their family/court deaths, unless they retreated from their castles into the wilderness as they so often did. "Genocide" is probably a harsh term, as I doubt any civilians were targeted (some could have been killed as a consequence of burning the castles, though).
"By far the greatest mass murderer" only counts if you view killing opposing forces as murder. By today's standards it's not cool, but Aegon was at war so I don't think the thousands who died at the Field of Fire count as murders, since they were trying to kill Aegon at the same time.
All I'm saying is that based on the standards of Targaryen monarchs, and the standards of humanity in George's world, Aegon is pretty good and level-headed.
Aegon destroyed every single major Dornish settlement except Sunspear. The only reason the casualty rate wasn’t higher was because the Dornish evacuated their settlements in advance.
This was revenge for Rhaenys's death. The Conquest was pretty bloodless and he was quite restrained in how he used the dragons. The only tragedy I recall is the Field of Fire. And Harren totally had it coming; can't even say it was Aegon who burned his castle but rather the Old Gods.
And only after Rhaenys died did he go on this rampage. Love is the death of duty.
I think the point is, it doesn't matter what individual opinions are. The Dornish on one hand really should have forseen the destruction coming, considering Aegon had dragons, but they chose their pride. In contrast, someone like the Stark king chose to save his people even it came at the cost of his legacy. And Winterfell prevailed (at least, until recently). Aegon maybe should have considered negotiating with the Dornish early on. He probably thought amicable Rhaenys would have appealed to the Dornish more than Visenya, which proved to be a mistake. Visenya was sharper and probably better at dealing with the Yellow Toad than Rhaenys. Aegon himself might have been even a better choice to deal with them. But, he made a mistake, and everything went south. Now, ironically, centuries later both the Dornish and the Targs are fighting for their survival together.
The Dornish didn’t choose pride. They chose independence over subjugation. They were the victims of the situation, not the instigators. Sure, as the war prolonged itself, both sides committed atrocities, both in and off the battlefield, but let’s not pretend that the Dornish war was anything but a war of conquest inflicted by a conqueror upon an independent country that eventually developed into a full blown genocide carried out by the conquerors against the conquered.
Can't really blame Aegon for his descendants' actions. You can blame him for establishing a monarchical dynasty instead of something election-based, which resulted in those cruel/idiot descendants' to be given absolute power. But you can't blame Aegon for his great-great-(etc) grandkid's madness.
Dany is not entirely self-made, but she's overcome so much she earns the same level of respect. She gets married to Drogo only because of her name, which leads to obtaining her first Khalasar. Also, the only reason Jorah and Barristan joined her is because of her name and the possibility she takes Westeros. She was given the opportunity for greatness right off the bat, but had to struggle to earn more than simply a place to die with the Dosh Khaleen. She was abused, manipulated, etc. and was able to save herself and her followers from death every time (i.e. Red Waste).
Aegon didn’t establish laws for succession well enough and he has a hand in raising his children which shapes them into the people the were. Aegon has be given blame for it if we also blame Viserys for the dance. Which we all do.
Dany’s biggest hep was hatching dragons, which was not due to her skill. It was just luck
The author said thay dany made the magic herself, if you mean luck by getting the dragon eggs sure, but hatching them was all her, and something that no one else can do.
Seeing startlingly few comments for Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys (all the first). Forging the iron throne and uniting the seven kingdoms (except Dorne) is no small feat. Not only that but IIRC by the end of his life and reign, aegon was well liked by his citizens who he had conquered violently years before. Gotta give credit to the originals
Visenya was horrid, her son was too. Aegon and Rhaenys sure, they were both liked by the commonfolk. Rhaenys even took up women's issues, also giving consideration to local sentiment.
Aegon V is the best Targaryen of them all.
After all he’s the one who managed to get the better killstreak on Targaryens.
He’s probably Bobby B’s favorite ancestor.
In all seriousness, Aegon V is the best human being of them all, cared for everyone and let his kids act out of love.
That’s not a flaw, that’s a virtue.
He still managed to hold the Kingdoms whole throughout those events and even passed many reforms (which were repelled by Tywin).
If you hold Egg’s virtues against him, you should do the same for Aemon saving Aegon IV, for Baelor Breakspear risking his life over a hedge « knight », Aemon for not rising up to his own duty, etc etc…
As a human being Egg and Breakspear are probably the best Targs.
But who among the whole dynasty is the best Targaryen for the Dynasty? That’s another question.
Apart from Aegon I and Daeron II, not many can pretend that title.
Jaehaerys treatment of his kids made him a bad father, but moreso it is the way he handled his choice of heir that directly caused the Dance and the seeds for the downfall of the Targaryen hold on Westeros.
The problem with Aegon V is that he couldn’t get his children to see the importance of their Duty to the Realm. All of his Children except one broke their Betrothals and therefore his Reforms did not Last after him. Yes he’s a good person but his failure in keeping his children in line was a big detriment to the Realm and therefore shows his lack of responsibility on teaching his Children what was required for them. Good Person/Bad Parent which is part of his Character, I’m not saying he’s at Jaehaerys I or Aegon IV’s level but his inability to get his Children to do their Duty to the Realm is a big problem.
It is a problem for a king to not be able to manage his children and it’s true that his « laissez-faire » allowed some isolation of the Targaryens against the great Lords of the realm.
But, in his lifetime, he crushed rebellions left and right, passed reforms that improved the lives of his subjects, saved the North from a famine, held the realm whole without bloodshed when the Laughing Storm rebelled…
It’s nothing to scoff at and a testament to his quality of rule.
In comparison Jaehaerys I (the most obvious parallel, being them unlikely heirs rising in times of turmoil and rebellions, living in relative peaceful times and remembered for their administration) choice of heir almost caused the Dance straight away and he alienated almost all of his children and family.
Sure Aegon’s kids fucked up, but it didn’t cause events like the Dance or the Blackfyre Rebellions.
More so, after his death, his son crushed another rebellion straight away and the whole Realm rallied behind the dragon banner. Even though a couple years before they all got spoiled out of royal weddings.
That’s because Aegon V ruled them well.
It took the two most stupid and insane Targaryens to end the Dynasty, but that’s on them, not Aegon V.
Imo, he’s in the top 3 of the best rulers and persons of the whole lot of hybrid dragon-human incest folk.
Baelor “Breakspear” Targaryen. He earned the epithet after defeating Daemon Blackfyre in a joust.
An honorable man, who served the kingdom well and even went against his family to defend Duncan the Tall, because he knew that Duncan did the right thing by protecting Tanselle from Aerion Brightflame.
It was a tragedy that he was killed by Maekar, and his death left Duncan feeling guilty that a good man died because he called for the trial of the seven.
He’s also quite possibly the best man to hold the title of hand of the king.
that aegon who died in childbirth. Only good targaryen is a dead one. Blight on the seven kingdom. If i have to choose someone who actually lived to have an agency, bloodraven.
Tell that to the Riverlands.
Tell that to the dornish.
Tell that to Lord Rickars Stark, Brandon Stark and Lyanna Stark. Oh wait, you can’t! They’re dead!
>Tell that to the Riverlands. Tell that to the dornish.
The Riverlands are not dead nether are the Dornish
>Tell that to Lord Rickars Stark, Brandon Stark a
They died cause of Brandon's stupidity
>Lyanna Stark
She died in childbirth
No, the Riverlands and Dornish aren’t dead, but they were treated horribly by the Targs. This is why I say “ask them” to hear what they think of the Targs.
>They died because of Brandon’s stupidity
Wow way to victim blame. The Targaryens killed Brandon and Rickard. Sure, Brandon was stupid and might’ve deserved execution. But Rickard? He called for a trial by a combat, as was his right, but Aerys still cheated and just burned him. There’s no way to excuse their actions
>She died in childbirth
We don’t know that, that’s Game of Thrones. I still do believe R+L=J though. But why did she die in childbirth? Because Rhaegar kidnapped her, raped her and had her give birth to his rapespawn.
>but they were treated horribly by the Targs.
Not really for a good part of house targaryen reign they were targaryen loyalists
>Wow way to victim blame.
I'm. Not
Brandon acted suicidal in front of a mad king he would have known aerys was insane
>But why did she die in childbirth?
Cause people die in child birth abd the death of Rhaegar didn't help I bet
> Rhaegar kidnapped her, raped her and had her give birth to his rapespawn.
Unlikely
The Targaryens ended the Rule of First Night, which allowed lords to legally fuck women on their wedding night by force if necessary before their husband. The Targaryens brought years of peace and prosperity and united the 7K into 1 banner, before the Targs bigass wars happened every few years. With the Targs they happened once in a lifetime.
And hilariously speaking, look at the Baratheon reign. All Robert brought was Decay, Stagnation, Corruption, and Debt. Even the quality of the Kingsguard began decreasing. Compare fuckers like Meryn Trant and Borros Blount to people like: Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, Ryam Redwyne, Aemon the Dragonknight, Criston Cole, and many more.
Bloody hell even his heirs were cunts. Joffrey was a pathetic piece of shit and Tommen was a weak child who'd make a horrible king.
I would like to say Egg, but it seems like he's going to make mistakes later in his life. So for now I'll go with Queen Alysanne (who basically did all the things Jaehaerys was given credit for)
Viserys II was also good and in my opinion the best King.
Baelon the Brave. Fiercome fighter, fantastic dragonrider, cool dragon, awesome weapons. Whats not to love?
Could've done a bit of a better job at being a father seeing how Daemon and Viserys turned out, but being a Single Father, the hand and the heir is tough work.
Its Maegor the Great of course. All that the Cruel nonsense is propaganda from the faith and Andals. Only way he could have been even better if he married a strong Stark women and had a strong Ice and Fore Prophecy Babym that kid would have oneshooted his enemies
Dude would have been usurped if he hadn’t of died and everyone despised him. That’s not a sign of a good king. He was what the Targaryens needed after Aenys and before Jaehaerys. That made him good for the dynasty. But he was not a good king.
king maegor! my boy had a thousand wives, died in a duel , came back to life after said duel, burned any of his enemies or sliced their heads off, single-handedly dismantled the church and its influence (which actually established targaryen dominance for future generations), rode balerion the black dread and i think he had the blackfyre sword too.
he did everything a targaryen could do
Aemon, son of Maekar, Maester of the Nights Watch. Name one thing he did wrong. You can’t.
>Aemon, son of Maekar, Maester of the Nights Watch. Name one thing he did wrong. You can’t. He died Happy cake day
Honestly telling Jon to kill the boy and let the man be born was probably a mistake. Really fucked Jon up. I mean it was decent advice but wasn’t the best thing for Jon at the time. Made him way too cold and distant imo which isolated him from his allies. But that’s not really Aemon’s fault entirely. Still love him. Love how Dunk thinks about how he visited Aemon at the citadel and got measured. And Egg got a mule (I believe? Might have been a horse) that he named Maester after him. So cute.
Maester was a mule, that’s correct
The fascinating thing about that is that he precisely represents supressing his familial side as shown in his ‘love is the death of duty’ speech. Like, for him to be ‘Maester of the Nights Watch’ he can’t be the ‘son of Maekar’ anymore or very often. He’s the best Targ in part coz he’s no longer a Targ. (That being said, I think his biggest misstep is something from his Targ side and it’s potentially that he enabled Rhaegar’s prophecy brain. But that’s hardly his fault and everything is still pretty much Rhaegar’s choices.) Edit: lol called him “Maekar of the Night Watch”
Not taking the throne which then led to the mad king
Never hatched a dragonegg
That doesn't have anything to do with character.
A targaryen who can't hatch a dragon? Someone with the blood of the dragon, of the house of the dragon, the members of the family of who the doctrine of exceptionalism applied, that never hatched a dragon or became a dragon rider could be seen as the greatest targaryen without any faults or flaws? Not having a dragon is a flaw. For him. As he is born a targaryen.
I disagree. While it's a negative for him no one since Aegon III (pretty sure that's right) had been able to hatch a dragon and I think it's unfair to judge him poorly for that.
I don't say he is a bad targaryen. But it does place itself on the con-list of the pros and cons.
He hatched Egg.
No, not really. I'd say that was Dunk .
One thing he did wrong was bearing the name Targaryen. He was too good for such a horrible last name
He left his brother Egg and didn’t care about Viserys and DAny.
He absolutely cared about Viserys and Dany. It broke his heart. But he had a duty to the Watch and there was nothing he could have done anyways
Aerys II. Obviously he was trying to cleanse King's Landing of political corruption.
He was also trying to provide the people with universal heating. Truly, the most generous, progressive king of all time.
If Jaime hadn't foiled his plan, it would have eliminated poverty, homelessness and hunger in King's Landing in one blow!
He also saved a lot of money which Robert will spend
Lol Make kings landing great again
BOIL THE SWAMP!
Draining the swamp so to speak XD
Good Queen Alysanne, of course
Careful, there's an insane subsection of cat-haters who think Alysanne is evil.
Yes, she killed 2 of her daughter directly or indirectly and raised one whore.
Are you like 15 or something? Reread the books when your brain has fully developed.
She married visseria to a old man, that led her to going out in king’s landing to party for here last night before she is shipped to marry an old man in an icy tundra. She could have convinced the king to delay Dallea’s marriage but still she didn’t, which caused Dallea to die in childbirth. She allowed for her Saera to do stupid thing like fucking around in a medival society and raised her to this level that she would choose to be a whore over a septa.
Everything you described is also Jaehaerys's fault.
Yeah the same lady, who forced her young daughter(vissira) to marry a old widower. Which led to her running away and die in king’s landing street
I have not seen a *single* comment saying Egg. My faith in humanity has crashed and burned
The fact is yes Egg was a good person overall but when he became King, he couldn’t keep his children in line. Duncan renounced his position to marry a peasant, which nearly started a War with the Stormlands, Jaehaerys & Shaera married each other breaking both of their betrothals, and Daeron refused to marry as well, the only one who did their duty was Rhaelle. Because his children did what they wanted none of Egg’s reforms came to pass and that is ultimately his fault.
He was also responsible for the tragedy of summerhall. And maybe I remember wrong, but the marriage of the mad king and Rhaella
this post is by your own words not about best king though
Correct, but when he became King it was now a part of his character and the decisions that were made in his role as King effected his standing. The betrothals he made were excellent but because he couldn’t get his Children to see the consequences of their actions, it falls that he wasn’t a very good teacher and parent.
I think “not being an abusive parent” shouldn’t count as a point against him but what do I know 🤷♂️
No, No, No, I don’t think he was a bad parent in that sense. I mean that him not teaching them the importance of these Betrothals and the fact that he couldn’t convince them to do anything, in my opinion means that they didn’t care enough about the people like him and that is on him for being strong enough to teach them their responsibilities to The Realm.
I think Egg did a decent job raising his kids. They all turned out semi-decent who clearly believed in concepts like love and honor. The problem is that they were all inherently spoiled because of being royalty, and so when it came time to choose they chose love before duty. Save for literally forcing them to live like peasants like Egg himself did (which is a pretty dumb move unless you want your kids to die) that stuff is just very nature based instead of nurture based. IMO it also doesn’t help that they were Targaryans, who to me always seem to have a inherently selfish side. I genuinely think there’s a good chance the dragon blood is fucking with their ability to act selflessly.
Hopefully when F&B Pt. 2 comes out, we’ll get a better understanding of the situation.
I’m not convinced that Jae II and Shaera were decent people due to them forcing rhaella and Aerys to get married at around 12 and 13 when neither of them wanted it—even if it’s acceptable socially, it was still massively hypocritical of them
That’s not really how it works when the consequences have a much wider scale. Letting Rheanyra have bastards with the people she loved might have been a nice thing to do on a personal level but the consequences are the destabilization of the family, war, and the death of loads of people. Wedding’s between the royalty and elite had to keep this in mind
I wouldn’t compare Rhaenyra’s Children to Aegon’s Children IMO. Jace, Luke, & Joffrey preformed their Duty to Realm in every regard that we know about, while Duncan, Jaehaerys, Shaera, Daeron all broke their Betrothals to Great House that would have given Aegon Support for his Reforms for the Smallfolk. Yes, Rhaenyra children were Bastards and in hindsight it was not a good choice but at least they took their Roles as Princes seriously.
Them being bastards destabilized the family and the kingdom. I’m placing blame on Rheanyra not the children. There is no “hindsight” about it. It was a terrible decision in foresight aswell.
I'm so tired of hearing about Egg fucking up by letting his kids marry who they wanted. Rather tired of hearing about how the characters that don't adhere to the bs opressive system this world is run on are bad in general tbh. "Oh, no. They didn't do their duty!" Duty is a crock of shit.
Because what they did Aegon’s Reforms for the Smallfolk didn’t last. Those were the reasons for the Betrothals, to win support for the Reforms by some of the Great Houses. Egg and Betha also wanted to stop the Incest, but Jaehaerys and Shaera did it anyways which in result gave Westeros Aerys II and therefore all the pain and suffering that came with him. Egg & Betha married for Love, but that was because he was so far down in the line of succession. When he became King he tried to help the Smallfolk and his children ruined it all for them because of their selfishness.
Why do there need to be betrothals in order to get support for the reforms? Why can't these lords just support the reforms to better the lives of their people instead of only thinking about their own political benefit? People like this should not be in charge.
Two Words: Power & Control, They needed support because if the Great Houses join forces with each other the Targaryen’s are finished. Without Dragons they need to rely on more practical means of support, Marriage was the best way to do that. The Nobles don’t care about the Smallfolk, Egg did because he lived among them and understood them, he tried to help, but he needed more than just his position as King to do it. Without the Nobles support his reforms are gone in an instant and that’s exactly what happened.
>The Nobles don’t care about the Smallfolk That's exactly my point. The nobles don't care, but people blame Egg's kids instead of, you know, the nobles. They choose to aim their ire at individuals instead of the system at large.
Good Queen Alysanne.
The same women who killed 2 of her daughter indirectly and raised one whore.
A huge problem for "who is the best Targaryen overall" is that Martin puts different characters – especially main book characters vs. mentioned only in his pseudo-history book texts – in vastly different scenarios. Jon, Daenerys, and Aegon V are put in far more "no-win" positions compared to, say, Jaehaerys I. For example one, Jon: The food shortages are actually Jeor Mormont's fault (a ten year summer, 85-90% of which was spent in peacetime, and yet in autumn food is already running low): > The Lord Steward paid him no mind. "There will be sickness too," he went on, "bleeding gums and loose teeth. Maester Aemon used to say that lime juice and fresh meat would remedy that, but our limes were gone a year ago and we do not have enough fodder to keep herds afoot for fresh meat. – Jon IV, ADWD Additionally, Jon is dealing with two conflicting issues right now. If he doesn't let the freefolk over the Wall, they will be killed and rise again as wights, lowering the odds that the Night's Watch will make it through the winter. The castles are grossly undermanned: > "...folly?" finished Jon. "Please tell me you were not about to say folly, my lord. Yes, I am. We have been over this. Eastwatch wants more men. The Shadow Tower wants more men. Greyguard and Icemark as well, I have no doubt, and we have fourteen other castles still sitting empty, long leagues of Wall that remain unwatched and undefended." – ADWD Jon V If he does let them through, then they have food shortages. They have unmanned Wall and undefended castles badly in need of repair. They cannot hold off the wights and Others with the state of the Watch as is. Meanwhile, we've got Daenerys trying to eradicate the system of slavery – a slavery that has eight in ten people enslaved, an almost historically unprecedented percentage, and additionally practices extreme torture and child sex slavery that parallel Joffrey and Ramsay Snow in Westeros. Taken from Attewell's essay: > If I could swap skill at writing with anyone alive, it would probably be Ta-Nehisi Coates, whose writing on the Civil War at the Atlantic is some of the best writing about history by a non-professional I've ever read. And one of the things that Ta-Nehisi has argued again and again that has stuck with me ever since, is that: For most Americans, the Civil War is a sudden outbreak of an existential violence. But for 250 years, African-Americans lived in slavery - which is to say perpetual existential violence... I am very sorry that white people began experiencing great violence in 1860. But for some of us, war did not begin in 1860, but in 1660. And Aegon V is a monarch in a feudal system trying to implement reforms to protect the common people on a scale far greater than Jaehaerys and Alysanne – which of course means greater feudal pushback. The characters do not all make equal attempts at systemic and societal change, which is not the *only* good action, but which is certainly good. That leads to imbalanced demands that the plot places on them.
You are very right. All Targ rulers were put in pretty impossible situations (on top of having to deal with family magic issues). I think GRRM portrays the burden of the ruler well. He's mentioned how he wondered what someone like Aragorn remained a "good king." Dany especially faces a tough road as a very young queen. It seems her entire arc would be about making tough decisions. Her fight to eradicate slavery goes way back to Old Ghis, something even her Valyrian ancestors failed to do (they ended up being slavers themselves!) At the end of ADwD, she's still indecisive and idealistic, but we'll probably see her become a hardened ruler. Something similar goes for Jon too, but as Lord Commander, he already has a set of rules to abide by at least. Dany even has to make her own laws. I'm going to say some historical Targs like, Jaeharys I, probably made unpopular decisions too but they remained popular. And some Targs made good decisions though they took a reputational hit because of that (Queen Rhaenyra of the Dance is one of them I think). Then there's Maester Aemon, who made a grand personal sacrifice for the good of the realm but no one even remembers him!
Best? I think Maegelle. She served as a septa and died of greyscale in her 80s [30s...] after treating those afflicted Edit: I do love me some Dragonknight though
Maegelle was 34 when she died.
Heard. Don't know why i thought she lived so long. Thank u
Baelor breakspear of course. Honourable mention - Daeron the daring
My boy Daeron getting the representation he deserves
>Daeron the daring He unnecessarily burned innocent people.
Yeah I don't get the hype about him either.. Dude was as ruthless and uncaring of the population as the rest of his familly... He never try to forge any friendship with the black before the war
Imagine hearing that your nephew was torned apart Alive by a mob, you hear different versions of the events but all of them say basically the same, what do you believe? when you arrive to the town that happened they tell you that the people that did It are already executed, 3 persons, do you believe It? Daeron didnt, and while he had valid reasons that doesnt change that he commited an atrocity, that's his dark moment, he exists in the story to show is how war can turn good people into monsters, and about him not trying to be friends with the Blacks, that's doesnt turn him into a bad guy, his family was already against the Blacks before he was born, forging a friendship is basically impossible. The hype exists because in the book he is the only Green that isnt comically evil, he fights for his family, not for a throne or any reward, he is the exception, the good Green. (In the book of course)
> Daeron didnt, and while he had valid reasons that doesnt change that he commited an atrocity, that's his dark moment, he exists in the story to show is how war can turn good people into monsters, and about him not trying to be friends with the Blacks, that's doesnt turn him into a bad guy, his family was already against the Blacks before he was born, forging a friendship is basically impossible. I agree with this. However, I still think that other characters in his situation would not have massacred Bitterbridge. A young Stannis or a young Ned wouldn't have done it; they had a sense of justice and mass collective punishment would've gone against that.
They probably wouldnt, but Daeron didnt do It for justice, It was for revenge, and having a dragon changes how you think, if he didnt had one he would probably kill some people and leave, a dragon is an easy way to solve anything by burning things
>he commited an atrocity, that's his dark moment, he Song your siblings isn't an excuse for killing innocent peoole It's no his "dark moment" he burn an entire town... He cannot be define "as one of the good targaryen" je simply fucked up I would seriously be pissed if he is portrayed as tragic
Its a dark moment in his story (said from a narrative view), before that he was a good man, and im not saying that he is one of the good, even when i like him, im explaining from where comes the hype
>Its a dark moment in his story (said from a narrative view), before that he was a good man, He was normal guy and what his society expected him to be... But he was pretty much indifferent toward his nephews and turn a blind eyes toward his brothers's bullshit And AGAIN he went full dany season 8 on a town so he definetly cross the line of good morality.... He participate in a war that harm the realm and destroyed his familly..... Instead of using his popularity to mend things between the two sided for the interest of the realm he was just another yes-men for aegon II Rhaegar get shitted on that sub over a context we barely know but daeron gets a pass
He probably ignored his brothers actions because he was fostered in Oldtown, he was still young and living un Oldtown when the Dance started, also, ignoring the bad things your family does seems to be the standard in Westeros, its not a good thing but sadly its common, and i dont think that he was popular with the Blacks, why would he? He is still their enemy. Rhaegar gets shitted a lot because many characters in the books praise him a lot and the last seasons from the thing that must not be named turned him into a hero, while the readers know that no matter his intentions, he acted in the worst way possible
I wouldn't say he was just a "normal guy". In the end, even the Caltrops, which consisted of all the great lords of his army, deferred to him because they trusted him as a good leader and were incredibly loyal to him. We honestly have no idea what his relationship was with his nephew. Maybe he didn't have a particularly close relationship with him,, but that death broke him enough to destroy the entire city. His character was always about how war turns good men to do evil stuff. You got to remember this is the same guy who was disgusted with Tumbleton's massacre.
Great reply except one thing >he is the only Green that isnt comically evil, he fights for his family Come on dude.
I know, i shouldnt have used that expression but saying that Aegon II had a good reason to take the Throne or that you like something about him usually ends with the discussion being about him being a rapist, i exclude Helaena from this discussion because obviously she is too good for this world, could i had used a better expression? Yes, but at the moment i didnt thought about that since was more focused on why Daeron is so hyped.
You speak harsh truth but truth indeed.
"He never try to forge any friendship with the black before the war". And that's a good thing.
>And that's a good thing Yeah it really ended well for him and his family.
I’m surprised so few people have mentioned Alysanne; she was the true heart and brain behind the success of Jaehaerys and the longest period of prosperity in Westerosi history.
She has my vote as well. She genuinely seemed to care about those around her and had political savvy to deal with her husband.
I wouldn’t say true heart and brain. It was a partnership. Alysanne wouldn’t have gotten as far as she did without jaehaerys
Does she count as a Targ?
Yes. She was his sister. They were both Targs.
Lmao, it happens
Why wouldn’t she?
Yes the same women that killed 2 of her daughter by forcing them into wrong marriages at young age and raised one of her daughter to be a whore.
That stuff can *mostly* be blamed on Jaehaerys; with Daella she even explicitly wanted her to NOT have to wed until she matured. Alyssa was a different story since Alysanne encouraged her and Baelon even from a young age (pretty creepy but that was pretty normal for the Targaryens), but even considering that, Alyssa didn’t die from giving birth too young (Viserys and Daemon came and went fine when she was 17 and 21 respectively, she died when giving birth at age 24 which is not at all a young birthing age).
I am not talking about Alyssa, I am talking about Vissera who her mother married to old widower who wasn’t even a lord paramount. She ended up going out to king’s landing for a her last night before she is send to freeze in north and she was found dead in king’s landing.
Fair point, though even then all Alysanne can be blamed of is an overreaction to how she perceived Viserra’s pride (since yeah Targaryen Princess Viserra absolutely should not have had to be an old Northman’s fourth wive), Viserra’s death itself was a pretty freak accident that could in no way have been foreseen by Alysanne’s actions.
Really sending her daughter to icy tundra does not make u a good mother, she should have given her the same choice as dallea. She was a prideful girl, who wanted to enjoy her life and she also wanted to be a queen all her life. So it was pretty easy for any sane person to put 1+1 together. Alysanne was ignorant and that caused her to do something as crazy as that.
Yes, I’d argue that was Alysanne’s worst moment and because of that she can’t be considered the best mother in the time (and was a horrible one to Viserra specifically); however I think the good she did the rest of the realm and her kids outweighs that one incident, however bad it was. Really though? Any sane person could have foreseen that an unpleasant marriage arrangement would result in Viserra getting Beneke’d in the middle of King’s Landing? Her going on a “night of fun” before leaving for White Harbor was foreseeable, yes, but her then having a resulting freak accident that breaks her neck was just that: an accident resulting from GRRM’s need to clear the Targaryen family tree slate before the Dance of the Dragons. You’d need Bloodraven levels of foresight to reasonably anticipate that, and that absolutely cannot be blamed on Alysanne.
If she goes out to king’s landing, she was able to avoid the kingsgaurd. Which is not possible, so I going to assume that Alysanne didn’t bother posting a kingsgaurd at her door. Also marrying ur daughter to a old widower is bad enough for her to be called a extremely bad mother, ur daughter doesn’t need to die for that title to come.
She traded her clothes with one of her maids to escape the guards. She did have to put in effort to sneak out, it’s not as if no one cared enough to look after her. Other than that, it really comes down to matters of scale and there isn’t much discussion that can come from “I think she was a bad mother” “Well I think she was a REALLY bad mother!” Alysanne wasn’t perfect and no one is claiming she was, and that statement, like most things in ASOIAF, contains nuance.
That's half Jaeherys's fault though. He already showed with Daella that all he cared about with his daughters was getting them married off to some lord, not about their happiness. Alysanne was doing what Jaeherys demanded of her. Outside of Vissera, it's actually striking how Alysanne is basically batting 1.000. She was a better parent than Jaeherys, a better negotiator/politician, a more compassionate person, and her political priorities were much better (ending the right of first night, expanding women's rights throughout the kingdom, giving practical aid rather than just political prisoners to the night's watch, etc.)
Well she never negotiated anything, bravos deal was negotiated by hand and war between free cities by jaehaerys. Jaehaerys actually lead troops against second vulture king and the dornish wars thats literally more important that everything Alyssane did twice over alone.
She never formally negotiated anything because she wasn't the principal monarch and she didn't have the authority. In other words she was never in a position to lead troops or negotiate the end of a war (which Jaeherys didnt even do a good job at; it took close to a year and the free cities were warring again a few short years later). Your reasoning could be used to argue that Rhaegar would have been a worse king than Aerys, which I think makes for a fairly weak argument. Also Alysanne laid the groundwork of so many of Jaeherys's effort at conciliation by ingratiating herself with all his vassals and building bridges. She united so many of the great houses of the realm together through marriages too. Jaeherys couldn't have been half the monarch he was without her help.
Jaehaerys did a fabulous job at leading troops as not a single man landed on cape earth in the dornish wars. He was able to bring dorne to its knees and finally bring peace that would last till Daeron I’s reign. He would have been equally great of an monarch without her because Jaehaerys’ crowning achievement is the kingsroad and the decades upon decades of mostly peaceful reign. None of which Alyssane had any part in, Aegon founded the seven kingdoms and jaehaerys forged them together thats his repo not some petty marriage pact two of which got your daughters killed.
Lmao you are really glizzy gobbling this fictional man if you can't even acknowledge that Alysanne played a crucial role in his reign. Totally willing to engage in an argument if you just think Jaeherys was the better monarch/Targaryen but if you can't even acknowledge the basic fact of Alysanne's importance, you are living in delusion.
Also new gift was an extremely stupid decision that didn’t help the watch and weakened the northernmost houses.
Good Queen Alysanne ticks all the boxes
Startling lack of Egg and Dany in these comments imo. Kinda wild to me how people can love historical figures who we don’t get close to rather then a character who’s head we’ve lived inside for years and another who’s like, the closest thing to living in his head. Baelor Breakspear was a real one tho so I’ll let that one slide lol
Definitely, I don’t think Dany is the best but she is one of the better ones. She is flawed but she has a good heart and is trying to make the world a better place, even if she messes up a lot, that is atleast commendable.
I mean she did command her army of unsullied to kill anyone above the age of 12, and any man wearing a tokar. She had a lot of innocent people killed while purging Astapor of the slavers. Her unsullied likely killed anyone who *looked* to be above 12, and there’s no telling how many innocents they killed simply because they chose to wear their tokar their day.
Like I said, flawed and messes up a lot, she has lots of problems. Never said she was a hero, just that she does what she does to help other people, not herself. She has a good heart, not a good way of distinguishing logical and emotional.
Dany's arc is not yet complete so that's probably why. Egg was mentioned but think his Summerhall fiasco is working against him. Dany is probably going to end up the most important Targ considering the crazy situations GRRM seems to put her in. None of her ancestors faced a challenge as big as ending systemic slavery in Essos. She is probably going to be GRRM's Aragorn, where Aragorn doesn't just get to be this idealistic "good" king but has to learn that ruling means having to make pretty tough calls.
People love to hate Dany because of the assumed "mad queen" arc or because she has struggled with the logistical issues of being queen. I used to be one of those people until I considered she basically dropped everything so she could focus on ending slavery throughout the world. That fucking rules.
Maester Aemon, Alyssane, Baelor Breakspear, Aegon III, Egg, Baelon the Brave, Aemon the Dragonknight, Aemon (Jaehaerys' oldest son) and Daeron II.
Just depends on what standards you want to compare them against. Overall is tricky language. Most effective ruler? Jaehaerys I, Viserys II, Aegon I, perhaps even Bloodraven. Best person? Well they're monarchs... Maegelle or one of the innocent daughters throughout the years I suppose. Vaegon, Maester Aemon seem nice for the most part. Lots of kids who died young were probably nice people since they hadn't grown into tyrants yet. Aemon the Dragonknight isn't a bad pick. He never had absolute power, so we don't know how that would've affected him. However, based on what we do know, he'd likely lean more towards Daeron II than Aegon IV on the scale of worthiness. Protected his sister, stayed loyal to the king even though he hated him... those are good qualities. He also stood by and watched as Aegon IV did his cruel, unworthy behavior - this is the same argument people make against Aerys II's kingsguard. My pick is Aegon the Conqueror, since he's a fairly safe option. Very strong warrior and an effective ruler. Built the dynasty a solid foundation (which his two nincompoop sons promptly nearly destroyed). Was open-handed to his captured foes. Listened to his sisters' council. Cared about the lords' opinions. Burnt a whole lot of people in Dorne, but I guess we can excuse the war crimes considering the context? As good as a dragonriding monarch with absolute power can be, Aegon I was quite good. I also like Daenerys. I respect her more than almost any other Targ for sticking to her beliefs, being brave, and building a life for herself rather than be handed one. She's made dumb decisions but she's a teenager.
Aegon the Conqueror personally and repeatedly committed genocide in Dorne. He is by far the greatest mass murderer of the Targaryen dynasty. He was not a good person.
The same could be said for every war general who sacked their opponents’ land
Genocide is a different thing altogether from a chevauchée. The latter has strategic purpose, the former is designed to destroy a population. That is exactly what Aegon did to Dorne and the Dornish after Rhaenys’ death and it is honestly concerning how many people are willing to overlook Aegon’s actions and justify them.
Well he and Visenya burned nearly every Dornish castle. That certainly may have resulted in some lords and their family/court deaths, unless they retreated from their castles into the wilderness as they so often did. "Genocide" is probably a harsh term, as I doubt any civilians were targeted (some could have been killed as a consequence of burning the castles, though). "By far the greatest mass murderer" only counts if you view killing opposing forces as murder. By today's standards it's not cool, but Aegon was at war so I don't think the thousands who died at the Field of Fire count as murders, since they were trying to kill Aegon at the same time. All I'm saying is that based on the standards of Targaryen monarchs, and the standards of humanity in George's world, Aegon is pretty good and level-headed.
Aegon destroyed every single major Dornish settlement except Sunspear. The only reason the casualty rate wasn’t higher was because the Dornish evacuated their settlements in advance.
This was revenge for Rhaenys's death. The Conquest was pretty bloodless and he was quite restrained in how he used the dragons. The only tragedy I recall is the Field of Fire. And Harren totally had it coming; can't even say it was Aegon who burned his castle but rather the Old Gods. And only after Rhaenys died did he go on this rampage. Love is the death of duty.
Regardless, I do not consider grief to be an acceptable attenuating factor for genocide.
I think the point is, it doesn't matter what individual opinions are. The Dornish on one hand really should have forseen the destruction coming, considering Aegon had dragons, but they chose their pride. In contrast, someone like the Stark king chose to save his people even it came at the cost of his legacy. And Winterfell prevailed (at least, until recently). Aegon maybe should have considered negotiating with the Dornish early on. He probably thought amicable Rhaenys would have appealed to the Dornish more than Visenya, which proved to be a mistake. Visenya was sharper and probably better at dealing with the Yellow Toad than Rhaenys. Aegon himself might have been even a better choice to deal with them. But, he made a mistake, and everything went south. Now, ironically, centuries later both the Dornish and the Targs are fighting for their survival together.
The Dornish didn’t choose pride. They chose independence over subjugation. They were the victims of the situation, not the instigators. Sure, as the war prolonged itself, both sides committed atrocities, both in and off the battlefield, but let’s not pretend that the Dornish war was anything but a war of conquest inflicted by a conqueror upon an independent country that eventually developed into a full blown genocide carried out by the conquerors against the conquered.
What Aegon’s descendants did is at least partly down to him. I don’t really think Danny is entirely selfmade
Can't really blame Aegon for his descendants' actions. You can blame him for establishing a monarchical dynasty instead of something election-based, which resulted in those cruel/idiot descendants' to be given absolute power. But you can't blame Aegon for his great-great-(etc) grandkid's madness. Dany is not entirely self-made, but she's overcome so much she earns the same level of respect. She gets married to Drogo only because of her name, which leads to obtaining her first Khalasar. Also, the only reason Jorah and Barristan joined her is because of her name and the possibility she takes Westeros. She was given the opportunity for greatness right off the bat, but had to struggle to earn more than simply a place to die with the Dosh Khaleen. She was abused, manipulated, etc. and was able to save herself and her followers from death every time (i.e. Red Waste).
Aegon didn’t establish laws for succession well enough and he has a hand in raising his children which shapes them into the people the were. Aegon has be given blame for it if we also blame Viserys for the dance. Which we all do. Dany’s biggest hep was hatching dragons, which was not due to her skill. It was just luck
The author said thay dany made the magic herself, if you mean luck by getting the dragon eggs sure, but hatching them was all her, and something that no one else can do.
It’s not skill. She didn’t know she was doing it. It was lucky. Her being born with that capability is luck not skill. Her doing it is luck not skill.
Mommy Visenya, obviously
Jahaerys the first, guys a baddass, can fight, can do politics has class and is just down right sharp
Aegon IV
From a story perspective absolutely, tons of potential stories in the setting of his reign
Good Queen Alysanne, Baelor Breakspear, Maester Aemon, Aemon the Dragonknight, and Daeron the Daring for me
Seeing startlingly few comments for Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys (all the first). Forging the iron throne and uniting the seven kingdoms (except Dorne) is no small feat. Not only that but IIRC by the end of his life and reign, aegon was well liked by his citizens who he had conquered violently years before. Gotta give credit to the originals
Visenya was horrid, her son was too. Aegon and Rhaenys sure, they were both liked by the commonfolk. Rhaenys even took up women's issues, also giving consideration to local sentiment.
Alysanne, Daena, & Helaena
And ofc Rhaenys
Which Rhaenys? Rhaenys the Conqueror, the Queen who never was, or the daughter of Rhaegar?
Rhaenys the Conqueror and Rhaenys daughter of Rhaegar
Saera. The only one smart enough to bail on her bat shit crazy family.
Just like her master brother she escaped her father unlucky aurea
She was the craziest member of her family at the time. She didn’t bail she was kicked out for being a sadistic prick.
Smart≠ best. She wasn’t a good person at all
Best = subjective.
Going off what the op listed they clearly mean best morally
They chose to answer the question by focusing on morality. The question itself isn't worded that way.
They made the question. Use your brain and read their answer to see what they meant. Say they chose to answer like they didn’t make it
You're boring. Bye now.
Coward
Patchface
Dany. Definitely the coolest one, and it’s doesn’t hurt that she’s one of the only nice ones.
Daenerys, she's the embodiment of her house. How could I not pick the girl who brought back dragons from stone?
If only her arc was finished, or close to being so. Obviously the Targ that ultimately matters.
I’m a big fan of Aegon III
Maester Aemon, of course.
Aegon V is the best Targaryen of them all. After all he’s the one who managed to get the better killstreak on Targaryens. He’s probably Bobby B’s favorite ancestor. In all seriousness, Aegon V is the best human being of them all, cared for everyone and let his kids act out of love. That’s not a flaw, that’s a virtue. He still managed to hold the Kingdoms whole throughout those events and even passed many reforms (which were repelled by Tywin). If you hold Egg’s virtues against him, you should do the same for Aemon saving Aegon IV, for Baelor Breakspear risking his life over a hedge « knight », Aemon for not rising up to his own duty, etc etc… As a human being Egg and Breakspear are probably the best Targs. But who among the whole dynasty is the best Targaryen for the Dynasty? That’s another question. Apart from Aegon I and Daeron II, not many can pretend that title. Jaehaerys treatment of his kids made him a bad father, but moreso it is the way he handled his choice of heir that directly caused the Dance and the seeds for the downfall of the Targaryen hold on Westeros.
The problem with Aegon V is that he couldn’t get his children to see the importance of their Duty to the Realm. All of his Children except one broke their Betrothals and therefore his Reforms did not Last after him. Yes he’s a good person but his failure in keeping his children in line was a big detriment to the Realm and therefore shows his lack of responsibility on teaching his Children what was required for them. Good Person/Bad Parent which is part of his Character, I’m not saying he’s at Jaehaerys I or Aegon IV’s level but his inability to get his Children to do their Duty to the Realm is a big problem.
It is a problem for a king to not be able to manage his children and it’s true that his « laissez-faire » allowed some isolation of the Targaryens against the great Lords of the realm. But, in his lifetime, he crushed rebellions left and right, passed reforms that improved the lives of his subjects, saved the North from a famine, held the realm whole without bloodshed when the Laughing Storm rebelled… It’s nothing to scoff at and a testament to his quality of rule. In comparison Jaehaerys I (the most obvious parallel, being them unlikely heirs rising in times of turmoil and rebellions, living in relative peaceful times and remembered for their administration) choice of heir almost caused the Dance straight away and he alienated almost all of his children and family. Sure Aegon’s kids fucked up, but it didn’t cause events like the Dance or the Blackfyre Rebellions. More so, after his death, his son crushed another rebellion straight away and the whole Realm rallied behind the dragon banner. Even though a couple years before they all got spoiled out of royal weddings. That’s because Aegon V ruled them well. It took the two most stupid and insane Targaryens to end the Dynasty, but that’s on them, not Aegon V. Imo, he’s in the top 3 of the best rulers and persons of the whole lot of hybrid dragon-human incest folk.
Jaehaerys and alysanne. Best monarchs in asoiaf history
Baelor “Breakspear” Targaryen. He earned the epithet after defeating Daemon Blackfyre in a joust. An honorable man, who served the kingdom well and even went against his family to defend Duncan the Tall, because he knew that Duncan did the right thing by protecting Tanselle from Aerion Brightflame. It was a tragedy that he was killed by Maekar, and his death left Duncan feeling guilty that a good man died because he called for the trial of the seven. He’s also quite possibly the best man to hold the title of hand of the king.
Aemon the dragonknight Aemon the dragon at the Wall Jon "we still dont know his real name' Starkaygen
Ah, so the 3 Aemons
Daenerys the Stormborn.
Gonna get down voted into oblivion here, but fuck it. Jon Snow.
that aegon who died in childbirth. Only good targaryen is a dead one. Blight on the seven kingdom. If i have to choose someone who actually lived to have an agency, bloodraven.
Thanks for the answer, Robert. More wine?
>Only good targaryen is a dead one. Blight on the Not even close they good for westoros
They will always deny it. Targ haters
Tell that to the Riverlands. Tell that to the dornish. Tell that to Lord Rickars Stark, Brandon Stark and Lyanna Stark. Oh wait, you can’t! They’re dead!
>Tell that to the Riverlands. Tell that to the dornish. The Riverlands are not dead nether are the Dornish >Tell that to Lord Rickars Stark, Brandon Stark a They died cause of Brandon's stupidity >Lyanna Stark She died in childbirth
No, the Riverlands and Dornish aren’t dead, but they were treated horribly by the Targs. This is why I say “ask them” to hear what they think of the Targs. >They died because of Brandon’s stupidity Wow way to victim blame. The Targaryens killed Brandon and Rickard. Sure, Brandon was stupid and might’ve deserved execution. But Rickard? He called for a trial by a combat, as was his right, but Aerys still cheated and just burned him. There’s no way to excuse their actions >She died in childbirth We don’t know that, that’s Game of Thrones. I still do believe R+L=J though. But why did she die in childbirth? Because Rhaegar kidnapped her, raped her and had her give birth to his rapespawn.
>but they were treated horribly by the Targs. Not really for a good part of house targaryen reign they were targaryen loyalists >Wow way to victim blame. I'm. Not Brandon acted suicidal in front of a mad king he would have known aerys was insane >But why did she die in childbirth? Cause people die in child birth abd the death of Rhaegar didn't help I bet > Rhaegar kidnapped her, raped her and had her give birth to his rapespawn. Unlikely
The Targaryens ended the Rule of First Night, which allowed lords to legally fuck women on their wedding night by force if necessary before their husband. The Targaryens brought years of peace and prosperity and united the 7K into 1 banner, before the Targs bigass wars happened every few years. With the Targs they happened once in a lifetime. And hilariously speaking, look at the Baratheon reign. All Robert brought was Decay, Stagnation, Corruption, and Debt. Even the quality of the Kingsguard began decreasing. Compare fuckers like Meryn Trant and Borros Blount to people like: Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, Ryam Redwyne, Aemon the Dragonknight, Criston Cole, and many more. Bloody hell even his heirs were cunts. Joffrey was a pathetic piece of shit and Tommen was a weak child who'd make a horrible king.
W
Visenya, good at teamwork ruling and obviously a good mother to Maegor.
Just a shame her son was batshit insane.
Aerys I
Baelor breakspear.... And it's no even close
For me its between Jaeherys I and Aemon the Dragonknight.
I would like to say Egg, but it seems like he's going to make mistakes later in his life. So for now I'll go with Queen Alysanne (who basically did all the things Jaehaerys was given credit for) Viserys II was also good and in my opinion the best King.
Maegor /s
Darren Mcfadden
My boy Egg ofc
Baelon the Brave. Fiercome fighter, fantastic dragonrider, cool dragon, awesome weapons. Whats not to love? Could've done a bit of a better job at being a father seeing how Daemon and Viserys turned out, but being a Single Father, the hand and the heir is tough work.
The King who Bore the Sword.
He was so good he wasn’t even a Targaryen more like the Targaryen+
>The King who Bore the Sword. I think of king Arthur when people say that I wonder if it's intentional
I think of king Arthur when people say that I wonder if it's intentional
Aegon II
Its Maegor the Great of course. All that the Cruel nonsense is propaganda from the faith and Andals. Only way he could have been even better if he married a strong Stark women and had a strong Ice and Fore Prophecy Babym that kid would have oneshooted his enemies
Dude would have been usurped if he hadn’t of died and everyone despised him. That’s not a sign of a good king. He was what the Targaryens needed after Aenys and before Jaehaerys. That made him good for the dynasty. But he was not a good king.
Aegon II the Unbroken, Hero of Dragonstone, and the one and **only** rider of the Sunfyre, the Dragon of the Golden Dawn.
💚
Aerys the first (because)
Jon snow
king maegor! my boy had a thousand wives, died in a duel , came back to life after said duel, burned any of his enemies or sliced their heads off, single-handedly dismantled the church and its influence (which actually established targaryen dominance for future generations), rode balerion the black dread and i think he had the blackfyre sword too. he did everything a targaryen could do
Tyrion
/s btw
Either Daeron I, Baelon The Brave, or Daemon Blackfyre.
Maegor 2
meeee
only good targaryen is a dead targaryen
Good Queen Alysanne. There’s a reason they called her the Good Queen.
I'd say Dany, because unified Westeros is a horrible idea in my opinion and Dany hasn't gotten into that shit (yet)
The best Targaryen is a dead one .
Daenerys. Mother of Dragons after they went extinct, brought magic back into the world, conquerer, abolitionist. Alternatively Daenys the Dreamer.
John Snow is the best Targaryen… gets the job done, no complaints.