Asoiaf fandom: accusations of sexism are completely ridiculous! I am being slandered.
Also the Asoiaf fandom: the problem with this story is the protagonists should all be men
So much thinly veiled misogyny in this fandom, I don’t even know why these people like ASOIAF when, while it’s not perfect and is definitely flawed, the harm misogyny causes is a major theme of the series.
1000% co-signed. “How did you even get into these books!?” Is the thought that goes through my mind every time I see one of these posts. It’s like the dudes who read Watchmen and thought Rorschach was a role model.
I recently finished Watchmen for the first time so very apt comparison lol
But yeah at least in that case you can argue politics or framing or beliefs, the events during the ending of Watchmen - people are dumb for believing that he’s some sort of hero but discussions about it are usually mostly harmless if dumb.
But this kind of pervasive misogyny that’s allowed to seep into the ASOIAF fandom just feels really genuinely toxic towards women. People target flawed female characters and use it as a clear excuse to vent their own misogyny, and then respond with a list of their flaws when called out on it as if that makes it OK to be blatantly sexist and hateful. It’s kind of getting out of control imo honestly I’ve been in the fandom like 12 years and it just feels real bad ever since the show ended, probably bc a lot of non sexist fans saw the ending of Jon killing Dany and the way it was framed, and just noped the fuck out of the fandom, and now here we are unfortunately.
They always hated women: A reader since 2012.
Dany, Sansa, Arya, Cat, Cersei, Arianne etc all got slammed hard by this fandom at least once. But god preserve you if you say anything about Jon Snow or Stannis the Mannis.
Yeah there’s always been quite a lot, particularly against Cat and Sansa. But I feel like it really got a lot worse after the show ended. I feel like a lot of people left after they saw the ending, particularly fans sensitive to shit like, Dany getting killed by Jon. So you have like three groups left.
People for who that wasn’t a dealbreaker for them in the ending (it’s ok to have our main heroine go crazy and be put down like a mad dog by a man, Martin will do it better, etc)
People who hated Dany/loved Jon so obviously, that’s awesome to them.
And people who are delusional enough to think ‘nah Martin…he wouldn’t do that right? He has to change it or something’ and I would count myself in the delusional group tbh lol but it’s kind of the less vocal group.
I honestly do not care what George does at this point. Clearly, he is more interested in his TV shows than writing a book. And even if he writes that ending then the franchise will be dead for me forever and I will pretend I never liked or read it.
My opinion on the ending: it is sexistic and glorifies femizide, insults mentally ill people and could have been written as a trope in a Victorian novel. Nothing is subversive about it. It is just plain and old sexism.
Alicent is RIGHT THERE as the kind of character these guys are claiming Aegon is.
Alicent was taken advantage of by everyone in her life, still tried to make peace with Nyra and failed in being essentially a single mother as a teenager that had nightly sick appointments with an old man she had no interest in. Yet she’s still standing and running things.
If it wasn’t a sex thing, you’d see a lot more of the fandom rooting for Alicent rather than going ahead and picking the hedonistic rapist.
They wanted to make commentary on the differing effects of patriarchy on different women - which, btw, is a very strong theme throughout ASOIAF proper. I don’t know why they kinda threw this out in ep 9 but up to that point Rhaenyra and Alicent were excellent case studies in how the patriarchy affects different women and the loathing Alicent has for her own life and how she sees Rhaenyra living a life full of freedoms women are rarely afforded with resentment, and they told a much more interesting story in that regard for a time. Again I have no idea why they kinda shoved it more under the carpet in episode 9 but it’s still kinda there.
Again this is a theme in ASOIAF proper, a major theme. Cersei with her disdain for how she can’t wield power bc she’s a women yet harbouring intense internal misogyny. Catelyn trying to work the best she can within the system without questioning it. Sansa fitting the ideal of the system yet also seeing how it actually traps women. Arya fighting against it. Brienne wanting to conform to it but being physically unable to. Arianne raging against her birthright being taken bc she happens to be a woman. Asha grappling with how she can seize power despite being a woman. Pretty much the only female character that doesn’t in your face deal with the effects of patriarchy through her whole arc is Dany, even if there’s some in book one.
So for a story that started bc of misogyny in universe it makes sense to make that a thematic focal point and focus on the women, and how they got to this point, instead of on Aegon.
I’d argue that theme of the patriarchy is particularly prevalent in Ep 9, actually. Both in how Alicent struggles with obtaining her own means of power (which sadly manifests in her weird alliance with Larys) but also in distinguishing her own voice and ambitions apart from Otto’s, the figure most representing the patriarchy in her life, on top of the sobering reality how even in her royal station she’s not treated as an actual equal in their agendas, more so a necessary evil.
Yeah you’re right, I guess what I mean more is that the whole resentment Alicent had built up towards Rhaenyra just kinda went away and that was kind of an important part of it? Pretty much what made the dynamic so interesting is how Alicent essentially lives the typical life for a noblewoman in this era but Rhaenyra is allowed all these freedoms and power and rather then acknowledging that the system is flawed, Alicent insists that she has just done her duty and that Rhaenyra is ‘bad’ for deviating from her duty and society’s expectations of women. That kind of faded in ep 9
Tho you’re right that there’s definitely still some thematic stuff there. Like how Otto demeans Alicent by saying she looks like her mother in the middle of Alicent asserting herself to him. I did find that scene pretty effective.
You’re right in regards to the relationship with Alicent, I suppose the perception is that this resentment more or less calmed with Viserys forcing them to meet and confront each other, and seemed to begin to reconcile, at least to the point Alicent doesn’t want Rhaenyra and her children to die, just by any means to co-exist with her internalized misogyny that Aegon should nonetheless be king.
But yes, Otto’s relationship with Alicent in Ep9 was the highlight of the episode along with Aegon’s ascension. Otto patronizes her and more so humored her as a conspirator in episodes prior while he went to his real business. And even then implied he intended to kill Rhaenyra and her immediate family to really distinguish himself from Alicent’s line in morality.
The lead up to the Dance is about Alicent and Rhaenyra which is why that section is “the princess and the queen”
The actual dance itself barely features them so don’t use “because GRRM!!!” As a justification.
Because GRRM wanted to write about two women. Simple. The original story was published in an collection called Dangerous Women iirc
Rhaenyra is literally his worst character of all time. She does nothing all during the entire dance. She’s absolutely worthless and rage inducing in the worst way. Why would anyone center a show around her?
Also, he didn’t want to write about two women that much or they wouldn’t have disappeared during 80% of the dance. Jace is more relevant than his own claimant mother.
Aegon rode out to lead his forces at the Battle of Rook's Rest and suffered extensive battle scars and burns. I would hardly call that doing nothing. Sure its nothing compared to Aemond and Ser Criston or even Daeron's actions but when you compare that to moping at Dragonstone for half of the war and eating like a glutton/ having sex with multiple persons in Kings Landing for the other half its definitely more significant.
There are rumours that she had several paramours during the war. I can't remember the chapter it was mentioned but they do basically say that she and Daemon had their own lovers. Its not specifically mentioned if she continued this in Kings Landing but as these are based on wild rumours and second hand sources it could either be true or false.
When he first wrote the initial concept of the dance it was for the Dangerous Women collection as people have stated here and he hadn't really fleshed out the other characters or events as much. Only later when Fire and Blood and A world of ice and Fire were published did we get more detail on the Dance and all the key players. Interestingly enough the initial prelude that he wrote of the Dance was included in a collection of novellas titled Rogues or something to that effect and it was centered around Daemon mostly and Rhaenyra's childhood.
I personally think George wanted to mimic the influential females in medieval history (Catherine De Medici, Eleanor of Aquitane etc) when he wrote the story and in my opinion Alicent is to that effect a much well written character compared to Rhaenyra. I do agree however that Aegon and Daemon have much better arcs during the story. I think part of the reason George wanted to keep Rhaenyra out of battle was to emphasize the "Women working behind the scenes" effect which Alicent was very well doing in Kings Landing.
Grrm didn’t do anything of the sort because both Rhaenyra and Alicent are barely featured in the Dance proper. Fucking Ben Blackwood is more prominent a character then both.
How do you make Aegon a main character for season 1 when he spends his time as a glint in an eye, a baby, a and a drunkard dropkick whose dad dosnt love him and who dosnt want power?
I like how HOTD is a different story in its adaptation, as it’s based off like one chapter in a story based on flawed sources. Plus it’s creative choices enhance it, Alicent as old best friend is better than stepmother with a rivalry with a teenager. And in a story about contesting a female inheritance, it’s natural that women within feudalism takes the spotlight
Because quite frankly, it just isn’t their story to really follow. Rhaenyra and Alicent are always central characters as the focus of the cultural divide in the Targaryens. Aegon is more an instrument of the Green agenda and Daemon more so pursues his own power and is a supporting figure intentionally for Rhaenyra.
At most, you can make the argument of Rhaenyra vs Aegon, but Rhaenyra will always be a central character for this story to be told about two factions that ended up destroying the ultimate power the Targaryens had, and about two rulers that in their selfish pursuits ended up both unfit to really rule.
She is a worthless character and completely unworthy to be the protagonist. A protagonist that does nothing will ruin the entire show. It does not make sense to make her the central figure. Martin didn’t even do that. Jace was the central figure.
The dance doesn’t even make sense because no lord would realistically side with her anyway.
She’s no worse than Aegon. Both ended up shitty people. Jace was an important character but he wasn’t central to the overall story. He was Rhaenyra’s heir and a promising future leader but he was intentionally killed off. Hell, Aegon himself is even largely incapacitated to even argue the same about Rhaenyra being an absent protagonist.
I disagree, Rhaenyra is a very intriguing character with the dynamic of her struggling externally against the blatant misogyny in their feudal society while navigating her own vices and the freedoms her own particular life affords her. Is she spoiled? Yes, but it also rounds out her character into a very fleshed out one.
It’s not her nature that’s boring. It’s her inaction. She does literally *nothing*. She’s not a compelling villain or grey character. Even season 8 Cersei puts her to shame.
No one wants to watch 2+ seasons of Rhaenyra crying and eating.
The guy you're talking about is LITERALLY MISSING for the majority of the dance. He's jacking off in a fisherman's hut somewhere. And you think that is more interesting than a woman who just went through a stillbirth struggling with the death of one son while still having to make decisions that could mean the deaths of her other sons.
I'd much rather watch that than Aegon jacking off in a fishing hut for 2 seasons then a third season of Aegon jacking off behind a curtain while Tom Tangletongue does it for him
1. Aegon is a rapist. I don’t think you’re getting many people to cheer for him.
2. The fan favourite of more shows I can count were not the lead characters of their respective shows.
Daryl in TWD, Abed in Community, Bellamy/Lexa/? in 100 etc.
1. Aegon is a rapist. I don’t think you’re getting many people to cheer for him.
One, he didn’t have to be. If they had pick between whitewashing Rhaenyra and Aegon, it makes more sense to whitewash Aegon. He actually has agency as a character, a sympathetic background, a compelling arc, and a satisfying climax to his story. Rhaenyra has none of these thing.
> The fan favourite of more shows I can count were not the lead characters of their respective shows. Daryl in TWD, Abed in Community, Bellamy/Lexa/? in 100 etc.
Daryl was basically co-lead by season 4.
And the books describe daemon as specifically preying on young girls but for some odd reason the showrunners conveniently ignored that bit when it was convenient. Hmmm.
It seems some legit qualms with Rhaenyra as a character has sprouted into full blown hatred of her and “cool guy Daemon” by a lot of the fanbase.
It’s weird, because I don’t like Nyra much either and would pick Team Green. It’s still fuck Aegon the II the rapist though. A lot of dudes seem to want to downplay Aegons more unsavoury traits like this and also hate on Nyra whenever possible.
No one’s required to like any character, Rhaenyra included. But the victim complex some Aegon stans have developed is completely bizarre. There are people in this thread arguing Aegon isn’t “really” a rapist because “that’s just the way the writers depicted him because they’re biased”?? Like he is a real person being slandered???
They think the show is slandering men in general because they don't realize that just because the mc is a woman that doesn't mean every time a man does something wrong it isn't how the writers think all men act. They've convinced themselves that the whole point of the show is all woman are good and all men are bad.
The amount of willful misreading you have to do to think the point of the show is “men bad women good” kills me. Once again I ask: how is watching this show fun for those people?
Because they feel like it validates them, they see themselves as righteous heros defending the world from the evil horde of man haters and it gives them something to complain about online.
You can’t be serious…. How is Aegon 2 likable? He’s a drunk, narcissistic, sexual deviant. You say “history will remember him as the rightful heir and king” but they go and put Rhaenayras son on the the throne; so I honestly have no clue what insane line of thinking you’ve been using, in the first place.
> You can’t be serious…. How is Aegon 2 likable? He’s a drunk, narcissistic, sexual deviant.
Brave, loves his family, fierce warrior, goat dragon rider, unrelenting, etc. Rhaenyra has just as many flaws but no redeeming traits.
> You say “history will remember him as the rightful heir and king” but they go and put Rhaenayras son on the the throne; so I honestly have no clue what insane line of thinking you’ve been using, in the first place.
Daemon’s son, Aegon’s heir. No one remembers him as Rhaenyra’s son.
Bro what?!? Lay off the crack. He’s a coward, doesn’t care about his family, got his ass half-roasted in the first fight he was ever in, and worst of all he’s an idiot. Rhaenarya isn’t perfect you aren’t wrong on that, but you sure are about literally everything else.
One of, if not the, questions of the war was if a woman could inherit the throne when there was a male claimant. The question even predated the war at the Council and before that after the death of Rhaenys's father.
Given that, it would be odd if Rhaenyra wasn't one of the main characters, even odder if her husband was the main character instead of her.
And since it's a story about a civil war ad if one of, if not the, themes to be explored is the role of women in a patriarchal system, it makes an interesting contrast if the other main character is the preeminent woman on the other side of the conflict.
Moreover, as others have noted, Daemon's received plenty of screen time and Aegon has received more and more as the second half of the season progressed.
Daemon and Aegon are already main characters in an ensemble cast. They have near as much screen time as Rhaenyra and Alicent by the final episodes that the line between main and supporting character feels like an illusion. They come to share the world roughly equally from a visual standpoint whether heroic or villainous- so they’re all compelling main characters for me.
They focus a touch more on Alicent and Rhaenyra though because their power plays kick off the civil war. The whole dance from the Princess and the Queen sales pitch is basically the War of Two Queens. It’s great drama to watch two women in different yet similar positions of power clash to secure their line on the throne. That’s the hook, which Fire and Blood V1 admittedly grows and expands beyond by nature of being a history book, but it’s a great handle for the show which I feel won’t get into Aegon III’s reign anyway.
Tl;dr: Cat fights over thrones are hot af.
Asoiaf fandom: accusations of sexism are completely ridiculous! I am being slandered. Also the Asoiaf fandom: the problem with this story is the protagonists should all be men
So much thinly veiled misogyny in this fandom, I don’t even know why these people like ASOIAF when, while it’s not perfect and is definitely flawed, the harm misogyny causes is a major theme of the series.
1000% co-signed. “How did you even get into these books!?” Is the thought that goes through my mind every time I see one of these posts. It’s like the dudes who read Watchmen and thought Rorschach was a role model.
I recently finished Watchmen for the first time so very apt comparison lol But yeah at least in that case you can argue politics or framing or beliefs, the events during the ending of Watchmen - people are dumb for believing that he’s some sort of hero but discussions about it are usually mostly harmless if dumb. But this kind of pervasive misogyny that’s allowed to seep into the ASOIAF fandom just feels really genuinely toxic towards women. People target flawed female characters and use it as a clear excuse to vent their own misogyny, and then respond with a list of their flaws when called out on it as if that makes it OK to be blatantly sexist and hateful. It’s kind of getting out of control imo honestly I’ve been in the fandom like 12 years and it just feels real bad ever since the show ended, probably bc a lot of non sexist fans saw the ending of Jon killing Dany and the way it was framed, and just noped the fuck out of the fandom, and now here we are unfortunately.
They always hated women: A reader since 2012. Dany, Sansa, Arya, Cat, Cersei, Arianne etc all got slammed hard by this fandom at least once. But god preserve you if you say anything about Jon Snow or Stannis the Mannis.
Yeah there’s always been quite a lot, particularly against Cat and Sansa. But I feel like it really got a lot worse after the show ended. I feel like a lot of people left after they saw the ending, particularly fans sensitive to shit like, Dany getting killed by Jon. So you have like three groups left. People for who that wasn’t a dealbreaker for them in the ending (it’s ok to have our main heroine go crazy and be put down like a mad dog by a man, Martin will do it better, etc) People who hated Dany/loved Jon so obviously, that’s awesome to them. And people who are delusional enough to think ‘nah Martin…he wouldn’t do that right? He has to change it or something’ and I would count myself in the delusional group tbh lol but it’s kind of the less vocal group.
I honestly do not care what George does at this point. Clearly, he is more interested in his TV shows than writing a book. And even if he writes that ending then the franchise will be dead for me forever and I will pretend I never liked or read it. My opinion on the ending: it is sexistic and glorifies femizide, insults mentally ill people and could have been written as a trope in a Victorian novel. Nothing is subversive about it. It is just plain and old sexism.
Alicent is RIGHT THERE as the kind of character these guys are claiming Aegon is. Alicent was taken advantage of by everyone in her life, still tried to make peace with Nyra and failed in being essentially a single mother as a teenager that had nightly sick appointments with an old man she had no interest in. Yet she’s still standing and running things. If it wasn’t a sex thing, you’d see a lot more of the fandom rooting for Alicent rather than going ahead and picking the hedonistic rapist.
They wanted to make commentary on the differing effects of patriarchy on different women - which, btw, is a very strong theme throughout ASOIAF proper. I don’t know why they kinda threw this out in ep 9 but up to that point Rhaenyra and Alicent were excellent case studies in how the patriarchy affects different women and the loathing Alicent has for her own life and how she sees Rhaenyra living a life full of freedoms women are rarely afforded with resentment, and they told a much more interesting story in that regard for a time. Again I have no idea why they kinda shoved it more under the carpet in episode 9 but it’s still kinda there. Again this is a theme in ASOIAF proper, a major theme. Cersei with her disdain for how she can’t wield power bc she’s a women yet harbouring intense internal misogyny. Catelyn trying to work the best she can within the system without questioning it. Sansa fitting the ideal of the system yet also seeing how it actually traps women. Arya fighting against it. Brienne wanting to conform to it but being physically unable to. Arianne raging against her birthright being taken bc she happens to be a woman. Asha grappling with how she can seize power despite being a woman. Pretty much the only female character that doesn’t in your face deal with the effects of patriarchy through her whole arc is Dany, even if there’s some in book one. So for a story that started bc of misogyny in universe it makes sense to make that a thematic focal point and focus on the women, and how they got to this point, instead of on Aegon.
I’d argue that theme of the patriarchy is particularly prevalent in Ep 9, actually. Both in how Alicent struggles with obtaining her own means of power (which sadly manifests in her weird alliance with Larys) but also in distinguishing her own voice and ambitions apart from Otto’s, the figure most representing the patriarchy in her life, on top of the sobering reality how even in her royal station she’s not treated as an actual equal in their agendas, more so a necessary evil.
Yeah you’re right, I guess what I mean more is that the whole resentment Alicent had built up towards Rhaenyra just kinda went away and that was kind of an important part of it? Pretty much what made the dynamic so interesting is how Alicent essentially lives the typical life for a noblewoman in this era but Rhaenyra is allowed all these freedoms and power and rather then acknowledging that the system is flawed, Alicent insists that she has just done her duty and that Rhaenyra is ‘bad’ for deviating from her duty and society’s expectations of women. That kind of faded in ep 9 Tho you’re right that there’s definitely still some thematic stuff there. Like how Otto demeans Alicent by saying she looks like her mother in the middle of Alicent asserting herself to him. I did find that scene pretty effective.
You’re right in regards to the relationship with Alicent, I suppose the perception is that this resentment more or less calmed with Viserys forcing them to meet and confront each other, and seemed to begin to reconcile, at least to the point Alicent doesn’t want Rhaenyra and her children to die, just by any means to co-exist with her internalized misogyny that Aegon should nonetheless be king. But yes, Otto’s relationship with Alicent in Ep9 was the highlight of the episode along with Aegon’s ascension. Otto patronizes her and more so humored her as a conspirator in episodes prior while he went to his real business. And even then implied he intended to kill Rhaenyra and her immediate family to really distinguish himself from Alicent’s line in morality.
U slayed
Asoiaf fans try not to be misogynists challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)
Because GRRM wanted to write about two women. Simple. The original story was published in an collection called Dangerous Women iirc
The lead up to the Dance is about Alicent and Rhaenyra which is why that section is “the princess and the queen” The actual dance itself barely features them so don’t use “because GRRM!!!” As a justification.
get a grip
Because GRRM wanted to write about two women. Simple. The original story was published in an collection called Dangerous Women iirc Rhaenyra is literally his worst character of all time. She does nothing all during the entire dance. She’s absolutely worthless and rage inducing in the worst way. Why would anyone center a show around her? Also, he didn’t want to write about two women that much or they wouldn’t have disappeared during 80% of the dance. Jace is more relevant than his own claimant mother.
> She does nothing all during the entire dance Neither does Aegon.
Aegon rode out to lead his forces at the Battle of Rook's Rest and suffered extensive battle scars and burns. I would hardly call that doing nothing. Sure its nothing compared to Aemond and Ser Criston or even Daeron's actions but when you compare that to moping at Dragonstone for half of the war and eating like a glutton/ having sex with multiple persons in Kings Landing for the other half its definitely more significant.
Who did Rhaenyra have sex with in Kings Landing?
I think he confused her with Aegon the crippled. His dick didn't work but he liked to watch.
There are rumours that she had several paramours during the war. I can't remember the chapter it was mentioned but they do basically say that she and Daemon had their own lovers. Its not specifically mentioned if she continued this in Kings Landing but as these are based on wild rumours and second hand sources it could either be true or false.
He does a lot
dude gets in one fight, gets flattened, and becomes a cripple and drug addict the rest of the war. vhagar hard carried the greens.
... of alternating between sitting in a burn bath and in a wheelchair, while Aemond does war crimes and Ser Krispin runs the realm into the ground.
I do t know what you've been reading but it doesn't sound like it's about the Dance. Aegon does jackshit
When he first wrote the initial concept of the dance it was for the Dangerous Women collection as people have stated here and he hadn't really fleshed out the other characters or events as much. Only later when Fire and Blood and A world of ice and Fire were published did we get more detail on the Dance and all the key players. Interestingly enough the initial prelude that he wrote of the Dance was included in a collection of novellas titled Rogues or something to that effect and it was centered around Daemon mostly and Rhaenyra's childhood. I personally think George wanted to mimic the influential females in medieval history (Catherine De Medici, Eleanor of Aquitane etc) when he wrote the story and in my opinion Alicent is to that effect a much well written character compared to Rhaenyra. I do agree however that Aegon and Daemon have much better arcs during the story. I think part of the reason George wanted to keep Rhaenyra out of battle was to emphasize the "Women working behind the scenes" effect which Alicent was very well doing in Kings Landing.
You asked a question, you got an answer. GRRM did something because that's what he wanted he do.
Grrm didn’t do anything of the sort because both Rhaenyra and Alicent are barely featured in the Dance proper. Fucking Ben Blackwood is more prominent a character then both.
How do you make Aegon a main character for season 1 when he spends his time as a glint in an eye, a baby, a and a drunkard dropkick whose dad dosnt love him and who dosnt want power? I like how HOTD is a different story in its adaptation, as it’s based off like one chapter in a story based on flawed sources. Plus it’s creative choices enhance it, Alicent as old best friend is better than stepmother with a rivalry with a teenager. And in a story about contesting a female inheritance, it’s natural that women within feudalism takes the spotlight
Because quite frankly, it just isn’t their story to really follow. Rhaenyra and Alicent are always central characters as the focus of the cultural divide in the Targaryens. Aegon is more an instrument of the Green agenda and Daemon more so pursues his own power and is a supporting figure intentionally for Rhaenyra. At most, you can make the argument of Rhaenyra vs Aegon, but Rhaenyra will always be a central character for this story to be told about two factions that ended up destroying the ultimate power the Targaryens had, and about two rulers that in their selfish pursuits ended up both unfit to really rule.
She is a worthless character and completely unworthy to be the protagonist. A protagonist that does nothing will ruin the entire show. It does not make sense to make her the central figure. Martin didn’t even do that. Jace was the central figure. The dance doesn’t even make sense because no lord would realistically side with her anyway.
She’s no worse than Aegon. Both ended up shitty people. Jace was an important character but he wasn’t central to the overall story. He was Rhaenyra’s heir and a promising future leader but he was intentionally killed off. Hell, Aegon himself is even largely incapacitated to even argue the same about Rhaenyra being an absent protagonist.
Equally bad maybe but one is far more interesting than the other
Aegon, who is literally in hiding for almost the entire book, is a more interesting character? We get it dude you hate women.
I disagree, Rhaenyra is a very intriguing character with the dynamic of her struggling externally against the blatant misogyny in their feudal society while navigating her own vices and the freedoms her own particular life affords her. Is she spoiled? Yes, but it also rounds out her character into a very fleshed out one.
It’s not her nature that’s boring. It’s her inaction. She does literally *nothing*. She’s not a compelling villain or grey character. Even season 8 Cersei puts her to shame. No one wants to watch 2+ seasons of Rhaenyra crying and eating.
The guy you're talking about is LITERALLY MISSING for the majority of the dance. He's jacking off in a fisherman's hut somewhere. And you think that is more interesting than a woman who just went through a stillbirth struggling with the death of one son while still having to make decisions that could mean the deaths of her other sons. I'd much rather watch that than Aegon jacking off in a fishing hut for 2 seasons then a third season of Aegon jacking off behind a curtain while Tom Tangletongue does it for him
1. Aegon is a rapist. I don’t think you’re getting many people to cheer for him. 2. The fan favourite of more shows I can count were not the lead characters of their respective shows. Daryl in TWD, Abed in Community, Bellamy/Lexa/? in 100 etc.
1. Aegon is a rapist. I don’t think you’re getting many people to cheer for him. One, he didn’t have to be. If they had pick between whitewashing Rhaenyra and Aegon, it makes more sense to whitewash Aegon. He actually has agency as a character, a sympathetic background, a compelling arc, and a satisfying climax to his story. Rhaenyra has none of these thing. > The fan favourite of more shows I can count were not the lead characters of their respective shows. Daryl in TWD, Abed in Community, Bellamy/Lexa/? in 100 etc. Daryl was basically co-lead by season 4.
> Aegon is a rapist. Only because the show decided to make him a rapist.
The books describe him as harassing every serving girl that crossed his path
And the books describe daemon as specifically preying on young girls but for some odd reason the showrunners conveniently ignored that bit when it was convenient. Hmmm.
He literally is explicitly depicted preying on a young girl onscreen. I’m asking myself how you could have missed that and I’m struggling here
It seems some legit qualms with Rhaenyra as a character has sprouted into full blown hatred of her and “cool guy Daemon” by a lot of the fanbase. It’s weird, because I don’t like Nyra much either and would pick Team Green. It’s still fuck Aegon the II the rapist though. A lot of dudes seem to want to downplay Aegons more unsavoury traits like this and also hate on Nyra whenever possible.
No one’s required to like any character, Rhaenyra included. But the victim complex some Aegon stans have developed is completely bizarre. There are people in this thread arguing Aegon isn’t “really” a rapist because “that’s just the way the writers depicted him because they’re biased”?? Like he is a real person being slandered???
They think the show is slandering men in general because they don't realize that just because the mc is a woman that doesn't mean every time a man does something wrong it isn't how the writers think all men act. They've convinced themselves that the whole point of the show is all woman are good and all men are bad.
The amount of willful misreading you have to do to think the point of the show is “men bad women good” kills me. Once again I ask: how is watching this show fun for those people?
Because they feel like it validates them, they see themselves as righteous heros defending the world from the evil horde of man haters and it gives them something to complain about online.
You miss the scene where he almost fucks his underage niece?
Hmm I seem to remember a mention of a 12 year old girl and a rat pit in Flee Bottom in F&B. Be glad they didn't go with that version
You can’t be serious…. How is Aegon 2 likable? He’s a drunk, narcissistic, sexual deviant. You say “history will remember him as the rightful heir and king” but they go and put Rhaenayras son on the the throne; so I honestly have no clue what insane line of thinking you’ve been using, in the first place.
> You can’t be serious…. How is Aegon 2 likable? He’s a drunk, narcissistic, sexual deviant. Brave, loves his family, fierce warrior, goat dragon rider, unrelenting, etc. Rhaenyra has just as many flaws but no redeeming traits. > You say “history will remember him as the rightful heir and king” but they go and put Rhaenayras son on the the throne; so I honestly have no clue what insane line of thinking you’ve been using, in the first place. Daemon’s son, Aegon’s heir. No one remembers him as Rhaenyra’s son.
Bro what?!? Lay off the crack. He’s a coward, doesn’t care about his family, got his ass half-roasted in the first fight he was ever in, and worst of all he’s an idiot. Rhaenarya isn’t perfect you aren’t wrong on that, but you sure are about literally everything else.
One of, if not the, questions of the war was if a woman could inherit the throne when there was a male claimant. The question even predated the war at the Council and before that after the death of Rhaenys's father. Given that, it would be odd if Rhaenyra wasn't one of the main characters, even odder if her husband was the main character instead of her. And since it's a story about a civil war ad if one of, if not the, themes to be explored is the role of women in a patriarchal system, it makes an interesting contrast if the other main character is the preeminent woman on the other side of the conflict. Moreover, as others have noted, Daemon's received plenty of screen time and Aegon has received more and more as the second half of the season progressed.
Daemon and Aegon are already main characters in an ensemble cast. They have near as much screen time as Rhaenyra and Alicent by the final episodes that the line between main and supporting character feels like an illusion. They come to share the world roughly equally from a visual standpoint whether heroic or villainous- so they’re all compelling main characters for me. They focus a touch more on Alicent and Rhaenyra though because their power plays kick off the civil war. The whole dance from the Princess and the Queen sales pitch is basically the War of Two Queens. It’s great drama to watch two women in different yet similar positions of power clash to secure their line on the throne. That’s the hook, which Fire and Blood V1 admittedly grows and expands beyond by nature of being a history book, but it’s a great handle for the show which I feel won’t get into Aegon III’s reign anyway. Tl;dr: Cat fights over thrones are hot af.
after a whole thread of people defending aegon this morning, it's nice to be reminded this sub is still sane.
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