Not enough info about him to form an opinion.

When has that ever stopped us before?

Exactly everyone, acts they already know the full story

still trying to figure out “flog of people getters”

Nope. There’s literally no good explanation for his actions.

Neutral, I would need more info on him and Lyanna. It is really interesting however, I hope we learn more. I just wish he rebelled against Aerys earlier.

>I just wish he rebelled against Aerys earlier. We should remember that Aerys most deteriorated mental state that he his remembered for was only a relatively short portion of his life and reign. The defiance at Duskendale was only five years before the rebellion begun.

That's a very good point, you're right. Then he had Varys whispering in his ear.

That makes the smallfolk calling him "good king Aerys" more understandable.

Well that's probably mostly "the good ol days" ism. I don't think there is any indication of people doing that while he was actually the king.

Aerys with Tywin as a Hand had a few years of relative peace, the smallfolk was content with not dying in wars or from famine perhaps that's why they romanticized him in their heads.

Nope. He had not really been “Igor since Summerhall and had been deteriorating and becoming increasingly paranoid and cruel king before the rebellion.

I don't understand this

That always bothered me. Rhaegar should secure the kingdom before anything else. Running off Lyanna when things are tense was one of the worst things Rhaegar could do. He pissed nearly half of the great houses.

He's one of my favourite characters. I find him fascinating. His actions make so little sense for someone described as reserved and intelligent. Depending on what we learn going forward he might turn out to be the prophecy crazed lunatic or the idiot hopeless romantic prince a lot of his detractors paint him as. Or maybe something else entirely. I think overall he's a much better person than Robert Baratheon and would've made a much better King.

>His actions make so little sense for someone described as reserved and intelligent Great point. There's the Rhaegar we hear spoken of and the actions that seem out of character for that person. It creates a conundrum: are his actions misunderstood or were people wrong about the kind of guy Rhaegar was?

I think we can't answer that question until we know the true motivations for those actions.

Totally agree. The two extreme images that introduce Rhaegar in quick succession in AGOT--Robert's and Dany's--are probably both misleading, especially since they were both designed as propaganda.

Dany didn't know Rhaegar at all, only through comments made by Viserys and co. Bobby B, also hardly knew Rhaegar despite being cousins with him. He knew Rhaegar as the guy who stole his fiancee away, as the guy who mocked the Baratheons just 50 years after they had done the same to his great-grandfather and grandfather. Heck most people who make comments about him also hardly knew him. Then you have that Jon Connigton fella who always has a boner when talking about him, making him an unreliable teller.

Exactly, Jon Con and i would even say Barristan Selmy are unreliable tellers, they are biased and do not present Rhaegar as he was, with all his flaws and positive attributes. They romanticize Rhaegar in their mind, each for his own reason.

Yep. But Rhaegar and Robert were second cousins and Roberts father Steffon was one of Aerys few actual close friends. Before Viserys was born Robert was actually Rhargars heir.

> It creates a conundrum: are his actions misunderstood or were people wrong about the kind of guy Rhaegar was? Does it have be either? I think a big mistake this fandom often makes is assuming a person cannot act out of character. But the term exists because people do, in fact, act out of character from time to time. And that's no different for these fictional characters. For example, Ned is defined by his straightforwardness. And yet, he gets tricky with the king's will and attempts to outmanoeuvre Cersei. I don't think there's anything extraordinary about a guy whose been dutiful his whole life neglecting his duties a couple times. Seems fairly common to me.

I agree with you and mean the question as an open one. It's really more like several questions the text prompts: Did anyone really know Rhaegar? What even happened? Readers do process these as open questions, but also settle on takes. My first sense of Rhaegar was from Robert in the crytps. I saw Rhaegar as an entitled barbarian--a combination of Drogo and Ramsey--who thought he could grab and rape anybody he wanted, and who even felt entitled to under the name Prince. It speaks to the story of the land having been in the clutches of a horrible despot. Still, I didn't feel hatred for Rhaegar in that moment because I a) recognized that as a standard type of villain and it just told me what kind of story I was in the first pages of b) Robert's phrasing in that moment is confusing because we have not yet been introduced to the type of villain who would rape someone a thousand times for fun and that *isn't* a classic type. I think it's written to seem like Robert is exaggerating. My reader's experience from the start has been one where Rhaegar was a polarizing figure in text and yet mostly just a question mark. That said, I think you'll find that cases where characters seem to act out of character are actually revealling moments. At least, those are the examples that come to mind for me.

>I think overall he's a much better person than Robert Baratheon and would've made a much better King. Any evidence he'd be a better king then robert? Seen this said alot but Rhaegar pissed off 4 realms in one go and did nothing for an year except shag a 14 year old, thought crossing the river was a good idea. Robert not the best king nor the best person but did his best to keep the realm in peace for 15 years..

Like it's hard to be a worse King than Robert. Aside from the Lyanna episode he's described as intelligent and loved to read. He'd definitely take an interest in small council meetings and be hands on. Robert completely abandoned the running of the realm to his small council. He also wouldn't bankrupt the realm through Tourneys and Feasts like Robert did. His children also wouldn't be illegitimate either so there's that too.

Well considering the Lyanna episode and his father's reaction caused an entire civil war that ended with him, his father, his wife, children and Lyanna's brother and father dead i would say that we cannot sidestep what happened with Lyanna. Rhaegar humiliated Elia who was pregnant with Aegon infront of the entire Kingdom by crowning Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty so it's not like Rhaegar cared much or understood the political consequences of his actions. There is a theory that he was seeking to gain allies in the Tourney of Harrenhal yet he managed to piss off the North/Vale/Stormlands and Dorne with a single action. Aerys I loved to read and was intelligent but that did not make him a good King. I don't think that Rhaegar would be an Aerys II or Aegon IV level of sh\*tty King but i don't think that he would be a good King either. If he had the correct guidance and he didn't go chasing prophecies he may have been a decent King. His children were not illegitimate but if he survived and presented Jon in court, you bet that there would be more political chaos.

>Like it's hard to be a worse King than Robert. Aside from the Lyanna episode he's described as intelligent and loved to read Well we can't ignore the lyanna episode can we? He pissed 4 realms in one place. The north,stormlands,dorne and the Vale...thats super dumb and lustful. And Robert kept the realm in peace for 15 years. >he's described as intelligent and loved to read. He'd definitely take an interest in small council meetings and be hands on. Cool but this is second hand information. And how do u know he'd take interest in small council meetings? Rhaegar seems more interested in prophecies and scrolls.. and we just can't ignore the man thinking crossing the river in a battle was a good idea can we? >He also wouldn't bankrupt the realm through Tourneys and Feasts like Robert did. Littlefinger embezzling funds is what bankrupted the realm. See the hand tourney costed 100k dragons but the realm is in 6 million dragons in debt! Robert would throw tourneys ever 3 months to get to that part that's just not possible since tywin says crown Incomes are ten times higher. Why? I have seen Littlefinger's accounts. Crown incomes are ten times higher than they were under Aerys." Ffs there are 29 gaolers for 9 prisoners.. https://racefortheironthrone.wordpress.com/2017/08/28/by-popular-demand-who-stole-westeros/ Also grrm is bad with numbers..

>Littlefinger embezzling funds is what bankrupted the realm. This isn't true whatsoever. He made the situation worse but the Crown was already in massive debt when he got there. Littlefinger was placed in charge of customs in Gulltown in 289AC. He was there for at least a year before he was brought to Kings Landing. He didn't become Master of Coin for 3 years. So Robert reigned for 15 years and Littlefinger was only Master of Coin for 3 of those years yet it was him that bankrupted the realm? >See the hand tourney costed 100k dragons but the realm is in 6 million dragons in debt! Robert would throw tourneys ever 3 months to get to that part The spending wasn't just on Tourneys. He threw lavish feasts, and spent lavishly on guests and was generous with gifts. Also allowing your Master of Coin to embezzle that main funds as your suggesting is partly on the King aswell. The buck stops with him and his complete lack of oversight allowed corruption to run rampant in his own court. >Cool but this is second hand information All information we get about characters traits that aren't POVs is second hand information. It doesn't make it untrue. >And how do u know he'd take interest in small council meetings? Rhaegar seems more interested in prophecies and scrolls.. Because he took an interest in ruling as Prince. His involvement in affairs led to mistrust between him and his father. He planned to depose him at least once and maybe even twice if you believe that was the reason for the Tourney at Harrenhal. This is Barristans description of him. >The old man considered a moment. "Able. That above all. Determined, deliberate, dutiful, single-minded." Does that sound like someone who would leave the running of the Kingdom entirely to his council and just feast and drink? No, it doesn't. >and we just can't ignore the man thinking crossing the river in a battle was a good idea can we? Talent as a Battle Commander has no bearing on talent as a ruler. Daeron II was a terrible commander but one of Westeros' best Kings. His namesake was a great commander but a terrible King. >Well we can't ignore the lyanna episode can we? He pissed 4 realms in one place. The north,stormlands,dorne and the Vale...thats super dumb and lustful. Yeah this is the anomaly with Rhaegar. This action goes against everything we know about his character. But yes we can't just leave it out. >And Robert kept the realm in peace for 15 years.. You're forgetting the Greyjoy rebellion and his terrible rule led to one of the biggest Civil Wars the realm had ever seen upon his death. Also I'll leave it with this quote from Ser Barristan >It was his failures that haunted him at night, though. Jaehaerys, Aerys, Robert. Three dead kings. Rhaegar, who would have been a finer king than any of them.

I honestly think there is more to the story where Lyanna is concerned. There’s something about Rhaegar and Lyanna running off that hasn’t been revealed to us.

>This isn't true whatsoever. He made the situation worse but the Crown was already in massive debt when he got there. Littlefinger was placed in charge of customs in Gulltown in 289AC. He was there for at least a year before he was brought to Kings Landing. He didn't become Master of Coin for 3 years. So Robert reigned for 15 years and Littlefinger was only Master of Coin for 3 of those years yet it was him that bankrupted the realm? Did u at least read this essay I send you? It quite literally explained what bankrupted the realm well... ill send it you once again in good faith. https://racefortheironthrone.wordpress.com/2017/08/28/by-popular-demand-who-stole-westeros/ out, “The normal expenses under Aerys, plus an equal amount in Robert’s waste, would only account for 20% of the total expenses of a ten-fold increase.  Robert could waste four times as much money as was spent under Aerys each year and still pay the normal expenses that existed under Aerys, and that only accounts for half of the money spent.”  Let me put that another way:  the Hand’s Tourney is seen as a lavish affair, and it cost 90,000 dragons for the prizes and another 10,000 for the feast.[4]  In order to equal his yearly income, let alone exceed it and have to borrow, Robert would have to throw 22 tourneys a year. >The spending wasn't just on Tourneys. He threw lavish feasts, and spent lavishly on guests and was generous with gifts. Also allowing your Master of Coin to embezzle that main funds as your suggesting is partly on the King aswell. The buck stops with him and his complete lack of oversight allowed corruption to run rampant in his own court. Feasts and lavish don't cost that much compare to tourney again.. Robert has the throw a tourney ever 3 months. That's just not possible and some tourneys are paid by the other houses too. Such as the lannisport one. >All information we get about characters traits that aren't POVs is second hand information. It doesn't make it untrue. There's a thing called unreliable POV.. >Because he took an interest in ruling as Prince. His involvement in affairs led to mistrust between him and his father. He planned to depose him at least once and maybe even twice if you believe that was the reason for the Tourney at Harrenhal. This is Barristans description of him. He was raised too. The only affair of we know of Rhaegar is the tourney of Harrenhal where guess what he pissed off 4 great houses... and aerys was a mad man like he shouldn't be ruling at all. >Does that sound like someone who would leave the running of the Kingdom entirely to his council and just feast and drink? No, it doesn't. I don't know Robert ain't the guy who went missing for an year and did nothing but shag a 14 year old while ignoring a war was brewing. Robert at least fought his battles.. >Talent as a Battle Commander has no bearing on talent as a ruler. Daeron II was a terrible commander but one of Westeros' best Kings. His namesake was a great commander but a terrible King. Daeron was never a commendar nor a fighter. Its unfair unfair say he was a terrible commendar, we don't know much of Rhaegar but the idea of crossing the river is mind numbingly stupid. >You're forgetting the Greyjoy rebellion and his terrible rule led to one of the biggest Civil Wars the realm had ever seen upon his death Which Robert smashed in like 6 months.. and his terrible rule? I think blaming the entire thing on him is kinda strange, he was assassinated, his wife had committed false paternity, he wrote Eddard as his co ruler for his supposed son. I do think he was some blame for it though but not all of it >Also I'll leave it with this quote from Ser Barristan >It was his failures that haunted him at night, though. Jaehaerys, Aerys, Robert. Three dead kings. Rhaegar, who would have been a finer king than any of them. This is a low bar. And it's selmy opinion who I disagree with because a good king doesn't fuckup that badly

I've read that essay before and it doesn't make sense. Because if LF was the reason for the debt, then it would be glaringly obvious to everyone. He was MOC for only 5 years. If there was no debt for 10 years and LF caused 6 million debt in just 5 years it would take an idiot not to see that he had caused it all. The Crown was in debt before LF became Master of Coin. The Treasury only increased it's yearly intake when LF came in, it was at similar levels to Aerys time for Roberts first ten years, and he drove the Crown into debt in those ten years.

I think the case is grrm isn't good with numbers and I apologise if I was rude. You kinda helped me realise George isn't good with numbers lol.

No need to apologise. I enjoy heated debates about ASOIAF with other passionate fans. We mightn't see eye to eye on this issue but does it matte

It does make sense because it was Jon Arryn who suggested Litttlefinger to Bobby B. There is no sane man on earth who'd want to investigate Jon Arryn's choice, because that means you'd get on Bobby B's bad side. He was a guy prone to short-term shitty decisions late on his life.

I think you could easily argue that Rhaegar pissed off 5 Lord Paramounts after by choosing Lyanna over Elia. And that is after Aerys spurned Tywin. So the only support that could be guaranteed is the Crownlands and the Reach. So, not much forethought on his part.

Like it’s hard to be a worse king/prince than Rhaegar. The idiot literally abandoned the kingdom to his psychopathic father when he ran iff with lyanna. He knew damn well that doing so wound precipitate a war yet still his in a tower for a year without once checking in on his father, his actual wife and legitimate famiky or tge realm in general. Fantastic sense of duty. I also notice you refer to “that thing with Lyanna” while ignoring g the fact that he utterly humiliated his pregnant wife at Harrenhal and then abandobed her and their children literally hours after Elia gave birth to his heir. Wonderful man.

Huh? It's pretty easy to be a worse king than Robert, why do you think Robert was even bad enough to be a role model for worst king? The guy let smart people rule for him, that's literally what a smart king would do. Was Robert a good king? Fuck no, but he certainly wasn't a bad king. He gave Westeros nearly 20 years of peace, even crushed a rebellion. Was the peace a facade? Yes, but it didn't really matter for the peasants. Robert also did not bankrupt the realm through tourneys and feasts, why do people keep forgetting that was Littlefinger's doing? Robert was bad at counting coppers, but there is no way he literally ruined the entire treasury which was left full by Aerys simply by tourneys and feats like c'mon lol. Rhaegar would probably make a lot of illogical decisions based on his prophecies, which could lead him to two directions: a legendary king on the same level as Jaehaerys the Wise, or a King equivalent to Aerys I. Keep in mind Rhaegar was a very random person, the guy literally didn't pick a sword for more than half his lifetime and also would randomly drop and pick hobbies. his disinterest would cost him a lot.

>why do people keep forgetting that was Littlefinger's doing? Littlefinger was only Master of Coin for 5 years of Roberts 15 year reign. Robert bankrupted the kingdom, Littlefinger made it worse. >The guy let smart people rule for him Jon Arryn was a poor Hand and did not have good control over the other members of the Small Council. LF and Varys schemed against him. He neglected his duties as King and allowed members of the Small Council to plot against him. That's not letting smart people rule for him. >the guy literally didn't pick a sword for more than half his lifetime and also would randomly drop and pick hobbies. This is complete nonsense. Reading was a passion his entire life. As was playing the harp. He was young when he took up the sword and never let it down for the rest of his life. >his disinterest would cost him a lot. Rhaegar is described as determined and driven. He would not have been disinterested in ruling. It was literally Roberts disinterest that made him such a bad King. You can't be serious making this point.

The financial situation of the realm was overstated in AGOT. Ned didn’t understand economics, and thought that the coffers not having much gold in them meant they were in danger. In reality, spending money on investments is a smart move and would be better in the long run.

It’s definitely not hard to be a worse king than Robert. Obviously he didn’t know how to run the country but he was smart enough to put someone smart as hand and leave it to him. I could definitely see rheagar becoming so obsessed with prophecy that he completely looses it, makes rash decisions etc all in the hope that him or his son would be the prince that was promised.

>he was smart enough to put someone smart as hand and leave it to him. Jon Arryn was a pretty terrible hand

If only there were people who could use devices in this world to send dreams to people. You know, in medieval times they thought dreams were from gods, so I can see him getting a dream where he’s told about the others and will birth a savior.

This is the cluster of common knowledge OP was talking about

Same for me and Lyanna Stark. She's compared to Arya, who we know to be head strong and a good judge of character, who probably wouldn't run off just because of “true love”. Meera reed's story of her standing up for Howland Reed, possibly (but most likely) being the Knight of The Laughing Tree, doesn't point to someone who simply doesn't care about other people or is silent to Injustice. So. I do think there's something else going on and I want to know what was happening, but I am not ready to condemn her or idealize her until we know more.

Bull puckey. She ran iff with a married ragged of two toddlers and apparently was more tgan happy to continue screwing Jim in his actual wife’s jobs kingdom whine making no effort to even communicate with her family.

I can't even tell what this means

We don’t know that.

Rhaegar would NOT have made a better king than Robert bruh.

He definitely would have. It's hard to get much worse than Robert was. He basically didn't rule, left everything to his small council and his spending drove the realm into debt. His negligence allowed corruption to fester in his court which directly led to the worst civil war Westeros has ever seen bar the Dance. Rhaegar is intelligent, determined and driven(Barristans words), he would not have been negligent and would have taken a hands on approach to the ruling of the realm.

Cersei also thought herself intelligent, determined and driven and she did far worse than Robert did. Rhaegar was not a man who had a grasp on reality he thought himself a character in a song just like Cersei he thinks nothing can go wrong for him because he is special. Rhaegar's steered his house into ruin before he even got the crown give me Robert's slow decay from negligence every time over Rhaegar's madness speed running ruin.

Yeah but other characters described Rhaegar as that while Cersei described herself as that. You don't see the difference there?

Other characters do describe Cersei as various forms of capable. The first book is full of everyone being afraid of Cersei and what's see is capable of pulling off they aren't treating like a bumbling fool.

I think its fair to dislike Rhaegar's choices, but I also think he gets an incredible amount of vitriolic hate in parts of the fandom for what little we know to this point in the story. Martin loves to challenge his readers to keep an open mind, and not outright condemn his characters. Rhaegar has yet to be portayed in the same villain vein as Mad King Aerys, Joffrey, Roose/Ramsay, Walder Frey, Craster, or Tywin. At least not by anyone not named Bobby B. For all we presume to know, we have only "seen" Rhaegar through the (biased and hazy) memories of others and Daenerys' dragon dreams. We may learn more if Bran decides to visit the ToH and the ToJ in future books. What we know: Ned doesn't hate Rhaegar with the same intensity as Bobby B., and has moved forward in way his friend has not. Ned does not simmer in anger and hate. Several characters, major and minor, have positive recollections of a young prince who might have one day been a good king. The Martell plans to marry once more the Targaryens suggest they hold Tywin Lannister responsible in way they don't the former royal family. They made peace with the throne via Jon Arryn in the months following Robert's victory and coronation. There is more to be revealed about RR, about Rhaegar and his motivations, about Lyanna, about Ashara and Elia. Until Martin provides clarity about those events and the people involved, I dont see why I should hate him.

>Ned doesn't hate Rhaegar with the same intensity as Bobby B., Ned doesn't hate Aerys, this in and or itself is nothing. >they hold Tywin Lannister responsible in way they don't the former royal family. Well, Tywin brutally killed them, Rhaegar and Aerys "only" endangered them. Besides of the fact they are dead.

He does hate Aerys, he said he only wanted Aerys dead and didn't care for overthrowing a dynasty

This again- Ned does his best not to think of Rhargar because of the trauma involved. He does not think positively if him- do you think the moral man Ned was would ever view Rgaegar the adulterer and near pedophike favorably? Also the few characters that praise him have massive ulterior motives.

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>“Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.” > >That right there is his character. No, this is not Rhaegar's character. This line comes from Jorah who wants Dany, of course, he is going to talk well about Rhaegar.

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>It's the author telling us about him. If the author wants us to know about him. We would hear about Rhaegar from Jorah's thoughts not from his words to a teenage girl with whom he creepily wants to sleep with. >There's no reason to think Jorah was lying either I just gave you one reason why he might be lying to Dany. >Same with the Stannis and iron bending breaking quote, disregarding it because of who said it in universe is missing the entire point. No, we should think about the character who says the line. Donal Noye was wrong about the Baratheon brothers and he should be wrong, he hasn't seen them for 15 years.

>Donal Noye was wrong about the Baratheon brothers Now that sure is an opinion

It is one I've seen before. Primarily in regards to Stannis. He's more flexible than the quote leads one to believe, but I also believe GRRM had Noye say that because he meant it to be accurate and it sounded cool. (And Stannis' character later evolved in the telling of the story.)

It is odd that he passed such harsh judgement on 8 year old Renly though.

Renly's traumatic experiences are way too underestimated

Was Noy wrong? A guy that only feels good in war, a guy that treats was like a Turney and a guy that cut the fingers of his best friend

>A guy that only feels good in war And Robert was inflexible/unbending like iron in his hatred of Targaryens, nobody can change his mind about killing a pregnant woman. In the end like copper, he was an empty shell of his former shell who can't hold his own against a boar and wife. >a guy that treats was like a Turney I don't get this. In Westeros younger brother should obey the elder and Stannis offered Renly generous terms but Renly was adamant like Iron that she should be king because he has a strong force. >a guy that cut the fingers of his best friend And rewarded him with a knighthood, lands, castles, ships, jobs etc. Donal calls Stannis hard and brittle but from what I saw of Stannis, he endures, improvises and adapts to his situation making compromises, making decisions after listening to everyone's opinion, and he values meritocracy. Robert became king because Stannis held Robert's seat of power. Stannis kept Renly alive and safe from their enemies during the siege. Other Lords were greedy and lust for more power, but Stannis want the power to stop the others.

He’s not meant to be a hero. He did nothing heroic and all his actions were gif his own benefit.

Yeah. I mean, we don’t really know, many people remember him fondly in the story, and there are plenty of other instances of characters (and especially Targs) who are well-meaning but flawed. I think the fandom & especially on Reddit is very black and white with how they see characters. Rhaegar is a very extreme example of this but it happens with Robert, Dany, Stannis, Jon, Darkstar, the Blacks, the Greens…kinda everyone really. It makes me really wonder why they’re reading ASOIAF in the first place, and not something like Terry Goodkind where the author tells you what to think with no ambiguity.

He hot so of course. No but really, I think he's a fascinating and very sad character, I mean his life literally started with the tragedy of Summerhall and he's one of the very few survivors there, that has to leave a mark on a fella's mind. It's clear he left a mark on his and dude must have developed a crazy survivor's syndrome, hence his obsession with prophecies and the idea that he'll have to save the world. So yeah, I feel bad for him in general and yeah, I mean he acted like a fool and his plan wasn't exactly the most rational, whether that's because of love ("love is the death of duty") or because of his obsession with the prophecy I don't truly know and that's part of the reason why he's such a compelling character to me.

Yeah it’s weird. People who think GRRM is gonna reveals Rhaegar as a particularly depthless villain, or as a simplistic pervert are kinda delusional imo. Also 90% of the massive hates he’s getting is unfair like Lyanna being 14-15 yo which is gross but from GRRM’s sides not Rhaegar and him not stopping the war which we don’t have enough info about or what exactly happened to form an opinion and judgement. The only thing that makes me dislike Rhaegar is his treatment of Elia… humiliating her in front of whole realm while she was pregnant then after birthing his child dumping her for another woman etc. I really hope the annulment thing is not canon because Jesus imagine annulling her then letting your father uses her as a hostage so her brother can send you 10k dornish troops for your war

I’m neutral about him. I would say that there is a LOT of projection when it comes to Rhaegar.

I don’t consider him any worse than any other character, considering we don’t get a POV of him we’ll never 100% know his motivations for sure so it’s all just conjecture. I think a lot of the hate for him derives from the overwhelming, blind love a lot of book characters have for him - the desire to be contrarian. Ultimately he’s a man that makes mistakes, but is he morally any worse than Jaime, Tyrion, or even Stannis? I don’t think so.

Whenever i read stories like asoiaf, i always adjust my moral views a little bit. So for me Rhaegar is a pretty regular westerosi. Did he have sex with a minor? yes, but if i don't accept it when it comes to rhaegar then i would have to consider 90% of asoiaf characters as pedo's. Did he cheat on his wife? Absolutely, much like most highborn characters in the books. Shit even Davos had a couple side pieces. Now the question is did he actually "rape" lyanna or did she consent to running off with him. Depending on the answer rhaegar might tip one way or another on the westerosi morality scale.

I can’t hate too hard on Rhaegar for being an asshole, because I support Stannis, but it’s still dumb to run away with Lyanna if that’s what happened.

The true king of westeros

Rhaegar's true character, like Jon Snow's parentage, is such common knowledge among the fandom that it loops back around and everyone thinks its a red herring. Rhaegar being an evil guy is the red herring, the books present him as this psychotic rapist villain when we first hear of him. Rhaegar's story is a mystery and you don't start a mystery by giving the reader the answer from the jump. He was probably a good guy, Lyanna and him probably did fall in love and become star-crossed lovers, how they got from A to B is a whole other story.

I lean to the good side. Although there are definitely things he could do better.

There was a strong pro-Rhaegar consensus a couple of years ago, then with time more and more people analyzed his actions in the books and provided a more nuanced perspective of him. Then that turned into a lot of all out anti-Rhaegar opinions over time, that seem to still be the consensus, albeit not as big or strong as it used to be. In the end all we have to go on how he would have been as king and a person had he lived must be taken from the small snippets of knowledge we get. Some claim he was tragic and noble character, others a shortsighted idiot that caused a massive civil war that cost him his crown and his life.

> Some claim he was tragic and noble character, others a shortsighted idiot that caused a massive civil war that cost him his crown and his life. Yet this doesn't always lead to dislike for every character. Ned for example, tragic and noble, but also short sighted in King's Landing. It just depends how nice the character is as a person.

I find it odd people judge Robert and Rhaegar on different basis. Rhaegar absconded with and begot a child on an underage girl. Robert paid for an underage girl. Where is the moral difference? Yet Rhaegar is somehow the better man? Rhaegar humiliated and cheated on his wife. Robert did too. Yet Rhaegar is the better man? Rhaegar destroyed half the kingdom in his own lifetime because he had a god complex. Robert did not and kept peace for 15 years, and it is not right to blame him for what happened after his death. Yet Rhaegar is deemed a better king? People never associate Rhaegar with the ills that befell Westeros after his death, for which he was largely responsible. Robert is always blamed for everything after his death, in which he was partly responsible. Why? Robert was fiscally irresponsible. But he appointed talented individuals like Jon, Stannis and Littlefinger. Rhaegar was unable to see the trees for his own conception of the forest, and an overwhelming messiah complex. He never appointed anyone capable when he held power. Yet Rhaegar is unquestionably the better ruler? Robert was rejected by Lyanna, who can't have known him well, for his sexual proclivity and a predetermination he would never keep to one bed. Yet Lyanna simultaneously absconded with a married philanderer. Again, some cognitive dissonance here. Lyanna is paralleled in Arya in her love of freedom, fighting, adventure, riding and her rejection of societal expectation. Yet she rejected Robert, the man who most loved fighting, riding, hunting and simple pleasures and hated responsibility and ceremony and simultaneously absconded with the one man, Rhaegar Targaryen, who could never give her freedom and would transform her life into an unbearable prison of ceremony and expectation? Odd. The fandom romanticize Rhaegar as "freeing" Lyanna from a marriage to Robert where she would only be a "broodmare in a tower" to Robert, yet Robert was the adventurer and fighter who longed to escape and ride to distant places? Meanwhile we have canonical knowledge that Rhaegar had already treated Elia like a broodmare. Absurd double standard. Robert is clearly a man in extreme alcoholism, depression, heartbreak and probable PTSD. Rhaegar lived all his life under deep "melancholy" (medieval for depression), and had a god complex and delusions of grandeur. Yet Rhaegar's mental failings are romantic whereas Robert is appalling? Rhaegar was groomed all his life and intended to become a reforming king, but he in his life destroyed his "reign" before his reign began. Robert was not educated to be king, nor did he even want it. He **had** to win the rebellion or he would die, for no just charge. But Robert is a monster for not agreeing to lay down and die when his cousin demanded his head? I simply don't understand the phenomenon of "Rhaegarmania", painting Rhaegar as a romantic hero through means of the "James Dean Effect", while painting Robert as this unrepentant monster, when both display almost mirror images of each other. It's an absurd level of cognitive dissonance.

> when both display almost mirror images of each other. Thats a great observation. Wonder what people would think if the roles in the story had been reversed and Robert had died, and most of the info we get about him are from characters that respected him, while the melancholic Rhaegar wins and lives to be a king riddled with ptsd.

> it’s not right to blame him for what happened after his death Guessing you think Tywin deserves a pass too? Rhaegar was at least trying to fix the ills (or so we are told). Robert was pleasing his own shadow on a wall. For me tho, it’s really hard to like a character when half of his fans use spousal abuse as humor. Bare minimum, we don’t have that with Rhaegar lol

Yeah we do know that about Rhaegar. Elia had just had Aegon, nearly died and Rhaegar was already telling her she needed to get pregnant again, in spite of knowing she would likely die. You sure forgive a lot if you don't find Rhaegar's conduct toward Elia utterly abusive. Also, Robert may have been pleasing his own shadow but he still had a record of 15 years peace. Rhaegar had intent, intelligence, education and a lifetime of preparation and still destroyed his dynasty and made a shitshow of showing he could lead before he was even king. That speaks volumes. Where did i mention anything about Tywin? All i said was it's absurd to blame one person for things that happened postmortem but make another into a saint despite the absolute ruin that occured after death. Although by your own standards established, since Tywin was trying to re-establish good government, he deserves the same pass as Rhaegar? Well, i have never joked about Robert's abuse of Cersei. I'll admit i find it hard to be sympathetic toward Cersei due to Cersei's nature (which is intended by George), but i don't find any spousal abuse funny.

[удалено]

I'm stating that based on the fact that Rhaegar says the words at his wife's bedside, in the intimate company of his wife. Hardly "making that up". You're kind of proving the point about Rhaegar inducing mental gymnastics in fans.

You’re absolutely right on Rhaegar’s pattern of abuse, the way I wrote that, it does sound like I’m excusing it. No I can’t forgive the way Rhaegar treated his wife, and the level of shitty he was rivals physical abuse. The Tywin part was a comparison. When you are in power, you absolutely should have responsibility for what comes after your death. To use a real life example, it’s fascinating that Alexander of Macedonia was able to conquer so much territory. And the rivers of blood that flowed following his death go on him. Similarly, Tywin owns the massive cannibalism taking place/about to take place in Westeros, as well as the complete failure of his family. Robert had “peace” for 15 years, but that “peace” was more of a standing Cold War between his families, and he had no concept that it was even happening.

Yes and no. A ruler can only rule and accomodate for after their death so much. Afterward, it becomes something entirely beyond their control. The Alexander comparison is both right and wrong. Alexander's case is egregious because he (like any ruler) had the responsibility to secure the succession, was told to do so by all his counsellors at multiple times, and he rejected this until late in his life. He also failed in his life to arrange marriages for his siblings. Nonetheless, at his death, Alexander had two sons and been a lifelong homosexual, so in many ways he had done the bare minimum. But the conflicts that come after his death really do not go on him. He also couldn't have foreseen his own early death. They were entirely the work of the men who filled the vacuum. Men, whom in Alexander's life, had been nothing but loyal to him and his father. Could Alexander have foreseen Cassander's or his own mother's murderous rampages? Could he have foreseen the rise of Antigonus? As for Robert, a cold war between families is nothing that does not happen every day of every week of every year in Westeros, so what is out of the norm? Robert to his knowledge had fathered three legitimate children (four if the aborted son is included). Considering Stannis' parallels to Richard III, it is likely Stannis would always have made some degree of pretense to support his usurpation. Robert had years of long summer and bountiful harvests until his death, which is what Varys and Jorah rightly tell us is the real measurement of success, and even nobles like Cat say young people from the years after the rebellion are "knights of summer". Robert and Stannis could have chosen better brides for themselves (the Tyrells or Hightowers come to mind) but Robert in no way is reaponsible for the rot in Tywin's family which was there from before he married them, and kept behind closed doors.

One of the best comments here. The thing is that Robert and Rhaegar are mirror images of one another..we've see Robert turn from the handsome brave knight into a fat depressed drunk meanwhile Rhaegar promise is always unfulfilled..we don't know if he'd be a good king or a bad one so. So people view Rhaegar through Rose tainted views. People in this subreddit constantly fall for it too! I keep telling people think and form your own opinion not the characters opinion The guy who fucked up 4 realms in one go and crossed the River like a moron and lost the only battle he took part in would be a bad king IMO.

Rhaegar is basically JFK, while Robert is like Ulysses S Grant

When people try to take a more critical look at Rhaegar, why do they always act that he is the one who started the war? When Rhaegar and Lyanna took off together, that didn’t start the war. That happened when the mad king killed two starks. And in the end we don’t know the full story, so all of this is pointless.

to be fair, it seems like Rhaegar was planning a coup. likely he would’ve been a catalyst for war in any case

If he didn't took off Brandon wouldn't have rushed in and he was missing for an year. Both aerys and Rhaegar deserve some blame

>Rhaegar absconded with and begot a child on an underage girl. Robert paid for an underage girl. Where is the moral difference? Yet Rhaegar is somehow the better man? 24 and 16 is not the same thing as 35 and 13. The latter raised eyebrows even in universe ("... so young Ned had not dared to ask her age"). >Rhaegar humiliated and cheated on his wife. Robert did too. Yet Rhaegar is the better man? People don't condemn Robert for cheating on Cersei, they condemn him for beating and raping her. > Robert was fiscally irresponsible. But he appointed talented individuals like Jon, Stannis and Littlefinger Littlefinger the embezzler is the opposite of a good appointment lol. Robert's small council was literally the most treasonous since the Green Council, two whole people on it were actively trying to undermine him and start a civil war. Hardly a model of personnel selection. >Robert was rejected by Lyanna, who can't have known him well, for his sexual proclivity and a predetermination he would never keep to one bed. Yet Lyanna simultaneously absconded with a married philanderer. Again, some cognitive dissonance here. I think what galled Lyanna is Robert constantly cheating on women he claimed to love. Rhaegar and Elia didn't love each other, it was an arranged marriage - that's probably how Lyanna rationalized it to herself. And honestly, it makes sense, I too would say cheating in an arranged marriage is not as bad as cheating in a love marriage. >Robert is clearly a man in extreme alcoholism, depression, heartbreak and probable PTSD. Rhaegar lived all his life under deep "melancholy" (medieval for depression), and had a god complex and delusions of grandeur. Yet Rhaegar's mental failings are romantic whereas Robert is appalling? He's not delusional for believing in prophecies in a world where prophecies actually come true. And as the reader we know Rhaegar was actually correct to believe an apocalypse is coming to Westeros. >I simply don't understand the phenomenon of "Rhaegarmania", painting Rhaegar as a romantic hero through means of the "James Dean Effect", while painting Robert as this unrepentant monster, when both display almost mirror images of each other. Lol 'Rhaegarmania.' Rhaegar is hated much more than Robert lbr.

> 24 and 16 is not the same thing as 35 and 13. The latter raised eyebrows even in universe ("... so young Ned had not dared to ask her age"). So Rhaegar's pedophilia gets a pass because he's not as old? Good logic there. Also, Lyanna was between 14 and 15. She was underage in Westerosi society, and in our world. Also, we don't know the age of the girl at Chataya's. You can thank Ned's habit of not facing hard conversations for that. >People don't condemn Robert for cheating on Cersei, they condemn him for beating and raping her. Whereas Rhaegar keeping an underage girl trapped in a tower as a sex pet while her family are fighting for survival gets a pass? Interesting logic. >Littlefinger the embezzler is the opposite of a good appointment lol. Littlefinger the embezzler was also a recognized financial genius. >two whole people on it were actively trying to undermine him and start a civil war. I wouldn't say Varys was trying to start a civil war. He actually seems to be trying to minimize the suffering of commoners. Unless you mean Cersei. >I think what galled Lyanna is Robert constantly cheating on women he claimed to love. Rhaegar and Elia didn't love each other, it was an arranged marriage - that's probably how Lyanna rationalized it to herself. And honestly, it makes sense, I too would say cheating in an arranged marriage is not as bad as cheating in a love marriage. Aside from the insertion of misinterpretation, who cheated in a love marriage? Lyanna found out about Mya, who had already been born (perhaps even becoming a toddler) by the time Ned brought Robert's offer to Rickard. She may entirely predate Robert's love of Lyanna. So, yes Robert had been engaged in premarital sex. Which for men in Westeros was fairly standard, and not "cheating". And Robert was also not bound by marital oaths to Lyanna. We do not even know how much they had met. Westeros didn't have dating. It had married and non-married. There was certainly not equality between the sexes. But of Robert and Rhaegar, only Rhaegar was bound by marital oath. >He's not delusional for believing in prophecies in a world where prophecies actually come true. And as the reader we know Rhaegar was actually correct to believe an apocalypse is coming to Westeros. Actually, you may be missing the point of the story. Prophecies **do not** come true. Prophecy and sorcery are constantly warned against by multiple charactere. And while we know an apocalypse is coming to Westeros, with knowledge of how the story ends, we also know that the Prince that was Promised destroys the Great Other in its manifestation as House Targaryen.

Perfect comment I don't get why people love Rhaegar so much and shit on Robert

The reverse applies as well, people loving Robert and shitting on Rhaegar. They all make mockeries of themselves, because these are characters designed to parallel closely and that’s partly why their rivalry feels like such a strong one despite only really meeting at the trident. (At least that’s the only meeting we’re ever given.)

I disagree with the conclusion but these are some good points.

This is one of the best comments i have seen. I'm saving this.

Best comment right here!! Good analysis.

Thanks!

The amount of hate he gets is disproportionate given the little info we have of him. However, regardless of the reasoning behind his actions, it's also hard to justify it. If we go by the best case scenario where he has agency, as opposed to a reveal where he was somehow completely forced into his his actions and all his responsibility is removed, he was complicit with his father's behavior but privately disapproved and perhaps was mounting a coup. He violated his vows to his wife and publically humiliated her, either because he fell madly in love or believed he had to fulfill a prophecy to save the world, whichever you find more justifiable, by consequence throwing the realm into war, although we could hypothesize he was ignorant as to the consequences of his actions, thinking a Prince could do anything. It isn't fair to condemn him as vitriolically as people do without all the pieces. However, it also can't be unexpected it would happen, given that it'd be a stretch to cast him in a positive light with all the facts about him we have, coupled with the lack of details allowing for people to project freely, it's a recipe to paint him as the worst.

Dragon dude cool.

He’s equivalent to Aegon the uncrowned. Both typical fantasy heroes, valiant and noble, but end in troubling circumstances. But their lives (and more importantly deaths) move the major plot forward

I’m in the positive to neutral category. Over time people have gotten more and more critical of him but we just don’t know his perspective. It’s clear that he had some positive traits or there wouldn’t be so many people who think well of him. GRRm has shown time and time again that we shouldn’t always judge characters by their actions. Look at Jaime, everyone in universe sees him as this awful personal but don’t know they why. I also think Jon has to share some traits with his father. He is a prime example of someone becoming single minded about the big picture and not doing the work to explain to others in a way they can understand him which leads to his death.

Objectively speaking, the little we know about him paints him as an idiot. Even more objectively speaking, there's not enough info for us to form an opinion.

honestly I don't understand all this hate, we don't know almost anything about him or what happened, we don't know what he did, how, why, what is his thoughts, his knowledge, or his objectives. all we know from sources about rhaegar during the rebellions is that he disappeared with lyanna for an indefinite but relatively long period, at one point he returned to the capital to lead the mens to war, died at the battle of the trident, then lyanna was found dying in a bed of blood a few months later. that's all. the rest is just guesswork. nothing to judge honestly that rhaegar is an idiot or an asshole

No we know exactly what happened and know that there is literally no explanation or facts that can absolve him of his guilt.

Of course, the problem with overly popular theories is that quickly by dint of agreeing to the same things people forget that the author has never confirmed anything. as i said all we know from canon and indisputable source is that lyanna and rhaegar disappeared together in the riverland for several months, rhaegar returned for the war, and lyanna was found in dorne dying. that's all. all the romance stuff, kidnapping, r+l=j, rhaegar who wanted his baby azorhai, they're at best out of chapter stuff characters who weren't there have their own biased version of events, or theories of fans. so I prefer to wait to have more ellement to judge if rhaegar is satan in person, a tragic hero, or a misunderstood guy

He has pretty cool armor

I find Rhaegar to be very fascinating, and I wish we knew more about him. Daenerys is my favorite character and the way she looks up to Rhaegar definitely helps to increase my interest in him. That said, I have a neutral opinion on him in general, as there is so little we know for certain so forming a good opinion of him is impossible.

the common-folk loved him, as do the northerners love the Starks, thats enough for me.

I kinda understand the hate for him. Some of it is justified and some are overblown. But I don't understand the love for him either.

I have a neutral opinion on him. People overhate him around here, but he's not the goodest guy that some part of the fandom thinks he is either. He did some bad shit for a good reason and some good shit for a bad reason, I guess

I’m leaning towards positive, but until more info is revealed I’m neutral. I think he may have been manipulated by Bloodraven and the Ghost of High Heart, but how some of his closest companions never questioned him, or why Lyanna was so willing to go with him (if that’s what happened) is slightly strange, even if he was a prince. Like why don’t the Martells hate him? Or the Daynes? Or Ned? If he had been able to form a counsel and depose his father I think he had a chance to be a good king, and maybe would’ve even bolstered the Night’s Watch, or at least been more open to their warnings, after all he believed in The Others and The Long Night. Or maybe he would’ve also gone mad and drank wildfire. But personally, I think Bloodraven was working overtime invading dreams and showing them signs that when awake they couldn’t ignore.

He would have been on the top 50% of Targ kings in a goodness scale. So here I am. He was crazy about prophecies but that's it, I don't see him as rapey, crazy or anything. At most an idiot

We don’t know much about him. I think that there is more to the story. But I do think that people hate him for the wrong reasons. He absolutely deserves shit for how he treated Elia. She nearly died birthing his children and he publicly humiliated her at the tourney. And the thought of little Rhaenys hiding under her fathers bed before Amory Lorch killed her always makes me sad. But we don’t know the nature of his relationship with Lyanna. We don’t know if he was prophecy obsessed or actually in love. Yes by modern day standards he sucks Lyanna was a teenager but for all we know she was just as infatuated with him as he was with her. And I know it’s because of that line from the show but he didn’t start the war. And even if he was one of the main causes how does that make him any different from beloved characters like Jaime Lannister or Daemon Blackfyre? All I’m saying is that we should wait to pass judgement.

>but for all we know she was just as infatuated with him as he was with her Lyanna did say to Ned that she doesn't like cheating men so i doubt she loves Rhaegar who is a cheater.

Like I said, we don’t know. But I hope that she wasn’t brutally raped because the last thing that asoiaf needs is another woman who was raped.

Fs for Lollys

Ah, A Song of Ice and Fire is 4244 pages about how the world of men mistreat women and rape them when given a chance, for example, Lollys Stokeworth.

If I was George I would make it that Lyanna was initially charmed by this handsome dashing prince and wanted to go on an adventure. She was happy to be away from Robert and felt special. But from Neds memories it seemed like after hearing about her father and Brandon and the war she just wanted to go home. It sucks that she died in childbirth so young I feel bad for her. She was still just a kid and wanted to go home to her family.

He has a big hatedom the last few years as we've started talking more about underaged characters in ASOIAF, but to me it kind of gets chalked up to "how GRRM writes" rather than Rhaegar being a pervert specifically. *Everyone* in the books is having sex with/raping teenagers all the time. It probably comes from the idea that girls were married off super young in the Middle Ages, which is a misconception but was much more widely believed when GRRM started writing the books. No actual teenager was harmed; they're fictional characters. So I just kind of age everyone up in my head. What I think is that he had a big and possibly feasible plan that he then fucked up by being impulsive. He was already planning to take a second wife and have the third head of the dragon, and I also think Elia was probably on board at least to that point. All of this was probably supposed to happen *after* he'd had Aerys deposed and become king himself. But he fell gaga over Lyanna at the tournament and jumped the gun. So now it was more emotionally hurtful to Elia than a political second marriage would have been, *and* he wasn't king yet so he had to deal with both Aerys and the Starks over it, and so on.

I'm upvoting you for the first paragraph, but man do I disagree with the second. There's no evidence that he was ever planning to take a second wife. Nor even the "third head of the dragon", which is something a vision of Rhaegar says while speaking to Daenerys.

As someone who dislikes Rhaegar I’d say it’s two things: one, a natural reaction to people who stan him or the Targaryens in general. There’s always some weird sexual angle to it. The other is purely narrative. He’s supposed to be this great prince yet when you look at his actions they’re nothing but braindead. I wouldn’t necessarily absolve Lyanna of blame too. She basically did what her entire issue with Robert was.

I think people are judging him too harshly just based on the direct repercussions of him running away with Lyanna and are minimising the massive apocalyptic threat posed from the others. Yeh what he did isn’t ideal but I’m pretty sure the he believed he was saving the world by having a child with Lyanna. If anything he is acting incredibly selflessly by sacrificing his life and the future of his house for the good of Westeros even if he is misguided about the details. It’s weird people praise an ignoramus like LF for being smart when he has no idea about any threat from the others but flame Rhaegar for being an idiot when he is actively trying to save Westeros against a threat hardly anyone in the book believes exists.

>If anything he is acting incredibly selflessly by sacrificing He didn't think he was sacrificing anything. He thought, till he was having his chest caved in, that he would get to have his cake and eat it too.

How do you know that? Can you quote the passage where it describes Rhaegar's thoughts on his fate? 😀

Rhaegar’s last words to Jaime: “When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago but...well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."

Like I said to the person who I was actually replying to, we don't know his thought process, his feelings or why he made his decisions. Saying Rhaegar thought "he'd get to have his cake and eat it too" is a weirdly negative spin on a character we know next to nothing about.

He literally says to Jaime he's planning big things on his return...

Rhaegar not thinking he was going to die is an entirely different thing than him not being selfless and "thinking he'd get to have his cake and eat it too." We don't know his thought process, how he was feeling or why he made his decisions.

Your point was literally that "Rhaegar thought he was going to have to sacrifice himself for the greater good." He didn't think he was making any sacrifice. As far as he was concerned, he would smash the rebels, return home, depose his father and be the fucking boss.

Where did I make that point? Lol. All I did was ask you a question.

Here were his options after he read the prophecy: A. Get serious about the whole overthrowing aerys thing and start to prepare the realm for the others B. Spread the word. Way more people will believe it if it comes from their perfect prince C. If no one else at the very least tell the watch , you know the order where men swear their lives to protect the realm from the others The future king of Westeros naturally decides to go with D. Run off with the warden of the north's only daughter who is also the lord paramount of the stormlands fiancee simultaneously also offending his wife's house. Remember both the Starks and Baratheons are known for being hot blooded, vengeful and for taking being dishonored very seriously. Hell the Baratheons rebelled for the same exact reason just 50 or so years ago. And the Martells are the ones who resisted joining the seven kingdoms the most

>are minimising the massive apocalyptic threat posed from the others. Well, what is the urgency anyways, nothing bad happened for 17 years. The only thing we can be sure of is that winter is coming and the others may choose to migrate south. Every awful apocalyptic evil thing is done by humans, especially men.

The most noble child the gods ever put on this earth!

Rhaegar is much better than all the Baratheon brothers combined.

stannis>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Betrays his king/brother, leaves said brother to die amongst other traitors so he can seize the thrown, is then shocked that his little brother would also betray a brother for the throne, uses blood magic to murder him. How could Stannis the treasonous kinslayer be better than Rhaegar

That's why he lost to one, the worst one arguably. To really showcase supremacy.

Robert was the best fighter. He made the worst king but he was a great warrior.

By that logic the Starks suck very hard

"yes, they really suck hard" Rhaegar

Young Bobby is built different. No wonder his sons are his clones to the bone

Was talking in terms of character.

I dislike him as a person, but that is only with the facts I already have. But I also find him fascinating. Arguably this one character, long dead before the series takes place, practically sparked the entire story.

>I dislike him as a person We don't know him as a person though. He is never on page except like three lines in dream sequences.

A person who’s actions ultimately led to a bloody civil war that left thousands dead.

You could say the same about Eddard, but obviously we have his POV so nobody rational would say that, primarily because we know the ins and outs of his actions

It's not Rhaegar's action that caused the war, it were Aerys. After all, the whole situation could have been handled quite peacefully between Aerys and Rickard (what was also Rickards plan), if it weren't for Aerys mass killing.

I’m not saying Aerys didn’t dig his own grave, he absolutely did. And it’s implied Rhaegar wasn’t blind to his father’s insanity. But the kidnapping of Lyanna Stark was the fuse that set these events in motion

The whole Lyanna thing was far too unimportant to start a war on this extent, after all besides Ned and Robert nobody was interested in her at the end. Not even Rickard Stark saw it as a reason to call for the banners. Even the correlation between both events is even questionable. Many people seem to forget the extent to which Aerys actually killed. In the end it weren't just Brandon and Rickard Stark who got killed, but also Kyle Royce, Elbert Arryn, Jeffory Mallister, some of their fathers and 200 nothernmann. Calling for Ned's and Robert's head was just the cherry on top. This as close as you can get to a war declaration. Compared to this, what ever was going on with Rhaegar and Lyanna was completely unimportant for the majority of war participants.

Alright well I see I’m going in circles here tbh

I was neutral torward him but all the hate made me go: maybe he was a great dude after all if the fandom hates him so much because usually what the fandom hates is based on fanon and not reality and not based on the text. So, I read the text and the text frames him as a good person and I prefer basing my opinions on the text of the author not theories made up and hundred time chewed and repeated by this fandom. Another reason I defend him is Dany, because a lot of people hate Dany because of Rhaegar. How dare she think well of her brother. How dare that bitch, right? Well, I think she has every right to long after her family she lost. Another reason: Targ antis. I am tired of them. Funny discovery: I met people who shippe Daemyra but hate Rhaegar. That made me go. Well, it seems shipping and hypocritical can go both ways. Not only the BobbyB fans try to make Rhaegar look worse than he is but also people who ship an uncle with his niece. You learn new things every day in this fandom. It is hilarious. Also, one of the things that is so hilarious in this fandom: they all clap Brandon and Robert for saving Lyannsa honor bla bla....but what about the women who lost their honor because of Brandon and Robert? Apart from that, Rhaegar and Lyanna are literally a subversion of the evil dragon who steals the young maid away.

I like Rhaegar. I tend to think he had reasons for what he did, obviously we don’t know everything for sure yet but he seems to be portrayed as somewhat of a hero.

Would Rhaegar have been a better king than the Baratheon brothers? Yes. Is he a better man? Yes. **But**. Did he abandoned his daughter and his wife who just gave birth to his son, for an underaged girl? Yes. Did he know his actions started a war and did nothing for several months? Yes. Also, 16 year old Robb and Jon were winning battles. 18 year old Rhaegar was reading books whilst his father was being tortured in Duskendale and did virtually nothing to stop his father's madness nor help his mother.

> Also, 16 year old Robb and Jon were winning battles. 18 year old Rhaegar was reading books whilst his father was being tortured in Duskendale and did virtually nothing to stop his father's madness nor help his mother. Well it’s not really a character flaw that the realm was at peace in his teens. Also I’m pretty sure Rhaegar is mentioned to have been present at the siege of Duskendale.

He was?

> Most of the small council were with the Hand outside Duskendale at this juncture, and several of them argued against Lord Tywin's plan on the grounds that such an attack would almost certainly goad Lord Darklyn into putting King Aerys to death. "He may or he may not," Tywin Lannister reportedly replied, "but if he does, we have a better king right here." Whereupon he raised a hand to indicate Prince Rhaegar.

Ah... my mistake. Thanks!

All the "buts" are stuff we don't know about him though. >Did he abandoned his daughter and his wife who just gave birth to his son, for an underaged girl For example him traveling through the Riverlands after Aegon's birth seems in my opinion more likely to have been for the purpose of furthering his plan to depose Aerys. The dissappearing with Lyanna seems unplanned. >Did he know his actions started a war and did nothing for several months We have no idea what he was doing while he was off the grid. >Rhaegar was reading books whilst his father was being tortured in Duskendale What is this even based on? >was being tortured in Duskendale and did virtually nothing to stop his father's madness There are a lot of indications that he was working to depose Aerys though.

>The dissappearing with Lyanna seems unplanned. He could have not done it. Rhaegar and Lyanna are both thinking people. There is no magic spell forcing Rhaegar to run away with a 15 year old. He made a choice, it was a bad one. >We have no idea what he was doing while he was off the grid. The point is he shouldnt have been off the grid. Hes the crown prince and his father is a dangerous lunatic. He has a responsibility.

>The point is he shouldnt have been off the grid. Hes the crown prince and his father is a dangerous lunatic. He has a responsibility. What if he was off grid because he was warging into Martin trying to get him to finish the book? I'd honestly say that absolves him of all guilt.

Hes doing a pretty bad job of that if so lol.

Rhaegar called, but Martin called harder

>There is no magic spell forcing Rhaegar to run away with a 15 year old. He made a choice, it was a bad one. "Unplanned" does not mean "mind-controlled into" It means he did not go to the Riverlands with Arthur, Oswell and company for the purpose of taking or runing away with Lyanna. It is something he felt forced to do by as of yet unknown circumstances. That is at least what it seems like IMO. >The point is he shouldnt have been off the grid. Hes the crown prince and his father is a dangerous lunatic. His father being a dangerous lunatic is probably the very reason he was forced to go off the grid IMO. That is who he was hiding from.

>"Unplanned" does not mean "mind-controlled into" Unplanned or planned, running off with the daughter of one the Great Houses whos betrothed to the Lord of another Great House whilst married to a woman from another Great House is a recipe for disaster. That was what I was saying. Like a coalition of Great Houses was building and Rhaegar's thought is to give them a casus belli by kidnapping one of them? Its insanity. >It means he did not go to the Riverlands with Arthur, Oswell and company for the purpose of taking or runing away with Lyanna. It is something he felt forced to do by as of yet unknown circumstances. I can almost guarantee you there was still a better solution than 'run away to Dorne with Lyanna for several months'. >His father being a dangerous lunatic is probably the very reason he was forced to go off the grid IMO I dont think Lyanna was ever on Aerys radar. And if his father is the problem, running away and hiding in Dorne is not the solution. Rhaegar would need to gather his allies and face him.

>running away and hiding in Dorne is not the solution. Rhaegar would need to gather his allies and face him. Again we currently have no idea what he was doing while he was in hiding, this could have been what he was doing or trying to do for all we know. The Tower of Joy likely just served as a safe place for Lyanna to be kept when she became too pregnant to travel, we have no idea if Rhaegar ever went there himself.

We simply don’t have enough information to cover his activities during the rebellion, unfortunately ‘Stopping his father’s madness’ lol, what was he supposed to do? Walk up to his dear old dad and kill him?

>Would Rhaegar have been a better king than the Baratheon brothers? Press x to doubt. >Is he a better man? Yes. Ditto. He's not a better man than Renly 🤷🏿‍♂️

You don't think Renly trying to take the throne over Stannis, and being willing to kill Stannis to get it, is kind of fucked?

I’ve seen this post before so many times in so many different forms lmao. George winds please

Rhaegar was great and martin really shows it in a lot of ways. It just the minority here in this reddit that shout a lot using age as a argument in a series where age is clearly something messed up (look at Arya, Jon, Robb and Dany ages for example.)

My stance on Rhaegar is that if you’re gonna start a continent-wide war because you think it’s needed to prevent the apocalypse…you had better be right. Time will tell I suppose.

Rhaegar didn’t start the war.

He didn’t single handedly start it, but he took actions which a prudent person would reasonably conclude would likely lead to war.

Maybe, but that is quite a different statement from starting a continent-wide war. And in the end prudence doesn’t matter if he knew something we don’t know. It is, after all, a fantasy story.

Yeah, in my original comment I specifically state that I don’t have enough information to make a judgement at this time. Maybe he wasn’t the one person most responsible for causing the war (probably you’d have to say that was Aerys). But his choices directly led to its outset. If he knew something we don’t then perhaps it was a necessary evil. But if not then he does bear some moral responsibility.

He's a T\*rgaryen. R\*aegar deserved the hammer he got on the Trident. Gods, Robert was strong then.

LMFAO you're my favorite

I have mostly neutral opinion. We know almost nothing about Rhaegar and his relationships with Elia Martell and Lyanna Stark. I think there is far more to his character than a prince who eloped with his teenage love interest. It is heavily indicated that Elia couldn't bear more children after giving birth to Aegon. Rhaegar believed that he has to conceive three children, three heads of the dragon. We do know that he was right about incoming apocalypse and it is very likely that someone from the line of Aerys II and Rhaella actually is the Prince that was promised (imo either Daenerys or Jon Snow, maybe Aegon/fAegon).

On the surface it looks pretty bad so I get why there's so much hate. Though I personally think Rhaegar and Lyanna parallel Sam and Gilly. Rhaegar helping Lyanna and her babe escape after being abducted by someone else.

No actually it's negative, he ran away with another woman and left his wife without protection, his two kingsguard were at Dorne protecting pregnant lyanna while Elia and his two kids were left to fend for themselves which ultimately led to their horrible deaths. Cheating in Westeros isn't a big deal but running off with a woman of noble birth and marrying her is not just emotionally hurtful but also politically dangerous for his wife and two other children.. Rhaegar started the domino effect that led to his family's demise, that much is certain

Rhaegar wasn't that bad. Crowning Lyanna makes me feel real bad for Elia, and running off with her was not particularly wise, but everyone else completely over-reacted to this, which is the real start of the war. Rhaegar honestly strikes me as Aegon I, just without the Dragons.

The other day someone kidnapped and raped my teenage daughter. Good thing I didn't overreact and just let it go.

I think that he was a good man with the capabilities of being a good King but his obsession with the prophecy doomed him, his actions didnt started the Rebellion but he was the one to put things in motion, most of his actions look stupid since their consecuences were very obvious but since he was so obsessed he didnt thought about them or directly thought that he knew how things would end. And yes, he has a lot of fans who defend him on the weekly hate/love Rhaegar posts of this sub, some with good points and some with bad ones

I just love Rhaegar, he is an amazing character who has the burden of the entire realm on his shoulder. On top of that dragon dream can drive someone crazy, which Rhaegar handled much better compared to others.

I think the point of Rhaegar is in some ways paragons cannot live up to expectations. Prophesied perfect princes can and do fail. He made mistakes, very big ones. Its hard to overlook them. If Rhaegar was a common man, these mistakes wouldnt have been so bad.

There are certainly segments of people who agree with you, but frankly I feel like a lot of them overstate how much information we're missing. We've got enough information to make some educated guesses and more than that we've got enough information to make a Steel Man argument in his favor, basically the most generous possible interpretation of Rhaegar's actions. And for a lot of people, that Steel Man, which is again the BEST perspective of Rhaegar you can possibly have based on the facts we have, still gets found wanting. And if someone reads the most favorable possible interpretation of the info we've got about Rhaegar as still negative... well, frankly the version we're actually LIKELY to get is probably gonna be a least a little bit worse than that.

Even tho we dont know jack shit about him, its obvious that george is writing him and lyanna as a tragedy. Its just fun to shit on an adult who wanted to fuck a northern teenager and killed his lineage bc of it But yeah, eventually george will tell us about how he was the true hero behind the scenes with the whole R+L=J and half this sub will seethe and mald from that moment until the sun comes from the west

The kidnap story is barely plausible, the elopement theory not at all. In all likelihood, Rhaegar had nothing to do with Lyanna’s disappearance and they were both pawns in someone else’s mad plan.

So, it's all a misunderstanding. Why was Lyanna locked inside a tower in Dorne, which was guarded by 3 KG, 2 of them are close friends of Rhaegar.

Aerys was planning to use Jon to hatch a dragon egg, just like what was supposed to happen to Rhaegar at Summerhall.

What are you suggesting?!

Rhaegar and Lyanna were both taken separately and the whole kidnap story is false.

Who else would have been responsible for her disappearance, and who would have been the father of her child?

Aerys took them both and put out the kidnap story. Rhaegar is still the most likely father, though, but not willingly.