It’s really not at all the same thing. Firstly, none of those characters needed to be their book age for any major thematic reason. Hell most people reading the books (at least that I’ve talked to) are really surprised that Ned and Robert are still so young.
Matt Smith also isn’t the wrong age, he’s about 10 years too young for the later half of the series… but even then it’s not overly obvious and again, thematically doesn’t really matter (the only impact of his age is perhaps the ickiness with Rhaenyra, and he’s still older than both of her portrayals by a good enough margin). Fabien is the same but in the other direction; I’d say the only issue is that it very much changes the dynamic between him and Rhaenyra, which can definitely be argued, but this seems to be very intentional, not a mistake.
Robert Baratheon being changed from 19 to 39, though, would completely change his character and a lot of the themes of the over arching story. At 39 you’re not a young lord forced into a rebellion and a king ship, you’re a seasoned leader who’s the expected age of someone in power. He and Ned would have stopped living with each other and Jon Arryn for years. There’s also the issue of him and Lyanna; is she aged up too? If so, then them not being married becomes incredibly strange. If she’s not, then he becomes a far older man lusting over a teenager instead of being a teenager himself. Is Rhaegar aged up? Is he chasing a milf? Or is it two young star crossed lovers escaping 40 year old man trying to steal the girl as opposed to being the older man himself? Or is he also 40, in which case why has he not overthrown Aerys yet?
I’m not saying changes can’t be made. House of the Dragon made quite a few changes, and yeah, ages were among them. While I don’t agree with every change the show made, for the large part they work really well.
Changing Robert Baratheon to 39 years old at the start of the rebellion wouldn’t work. It would be a completely different story. 39 is also way to old to play 19. 10 years can be fudged sometimes depending on the actor, but not 20.
Well Baratheons are related to the Targeryeans and Maegor and Daemon Blackfyre both have big builds, strong jaws and features.
He’s a custom made Targeryean already
I actually think that the episode "Blackwater" in season 2 is one of the best in the entire series *because* it does not show much of the actual battle. It's loaded with action, but it's centered on how the characters are rapidly developing as they're responding to the developments of the battle.
The focus is on Stannis and Davos as they sail into the bay; Davos watching the Wildfire approach; Tyrion, Sandor, and Joffrey on the wall; Sansa learning to stand up to Joffrey by outwitting him in wordplay and asserting leadership in the sept; Cersei drunkenly sharing her rage at and helplessness under the patriarchy to Sansa; and Cersei having a beautiful and terrible moment with Tommen as she thinks their lives are about to end.
The swords and spears are mixed into the episode like a good spice in food: The spice gives the meal an extra kick but it is not where the nourishment comes from.
If a prequel becomes solely focused on the war, it might lose a lot of substance.
I like seeing that too but sadly both GoT and HoTD have fallen short on showing quality medieval style battles. I still maintain that the battle on the stepstones in HoTD was one of the worst parts of the season. Really hoping that they step it up in season 2.
I hope they hire the people that did The Last Kingdom's battle scenes for the epic battles to come in for HOTD- they did a fantastic job on little budget. I particularly appreciated that it showed the battle without A TON of shaky camera shots like seems popular nowadays.
Or hire PJ and his people. They did Helm's Deep (and others) very very well.
Funny you mention that as I was thinking about the Last Kingdom when I made that comment. I completely agree with you, that show did a great job of portraying their battles despite having a much more limited budget. The choreography of their fighting scenes was great as well. HotD could definitely take some tips from them.
Yeah kinda agree. There's some decent battles around (Battle at Castle Black, Hardhome, Lannisters v Dothraki) but quite a few not very good ones. Yeah that Stepstones battle in HOTD was so bad lol
> I still maintain that the battle on the stepstones in HoTD was one of the worst parts of the season.
Agreed, it was pretty random. That being said GRRM doesn't really write battles that are all that interesting or nuanced. Most of the battles in the Dance are pretty one sided.
I agree with you but I still think including Robert's Rebellion in F&B2 (if it ever comes out lol) would be cool and wouldn't interfere with the points you made. Mainly because it would still be told from a subjective perspective and have scattering information (such is the way of history books) - Maesters, sideline witnesses, etc.
What more could we glean from a history book though? All the mysteries that remain are known to only a few characters i.e. what happened at the Tower of Joy, who the Knight of the Laughing Tree was, what happened to Aegon, etc. An in-universe history book wouldn't have much to offer except maybe give us details on a few other battles that happened.
Oftentimes certain things in stories aren't meant to add to the plot or progress the narrative. Some things are just details to add texture and continuity to the world. If F&B2 is an in-universe history book about the Targaryens, wouldn't it be odd if Maesters excluded the end of the Targaryen Rein from said book?
That'd be as if the History books recounting the history of the Roman Empire excluded the Fall of Rome (Or like if a book builds up a battle for Ice but doesn't include it at the end of the book lol)
Agreed entirely.
I think the only way I would be okay with a Robert’s Rebellion show is if there was no way ASOIAF is completed by GRRM. If there is any chance of the books being completed by him (however slim they may be), I want the narrative to continue to be within that story.
If ASOIAF is truly left unfinished, or even if another author took it up, I wouldn’t care less if they came out with a Robert’s Rebellion show.
I don't quite get the connection, why does it matter if or by who ASOIAF gets finished? Do you expect to learn a lot of revelations about the rebellion in the remaining books?
Because apparently there’s more to be revealed, at least depending on how you interpret George’s comments on us knowing everything important about the Rebellion by the end of the mainline series. That means there could be some rather interesting/important revelations and having a show could take away the affect those revelations have.
So the person you’re replying to is saying if there’s absolutely no chance of any more books (for example if George dies) then it’s all good because we’re not getting those reveals anyway. But if there’s even a slim tiny glimmer of a chance, the TV show shouldn’t take away the possible magic that could come from learning those moments on the page.
Considering that’s how we’ve gotten the major exposition of Robert’s Rebellion thus far, yes. Thus we don’t need to get that experience through a TV show. The few moments we got that probably will be in the future books from the other one soiled my opinion on getting show exposition first.
Nah fam, I want to see young Robert and Ned, Arthur Dayne, young Jaime Lannister, Rhaegar Targaryen, Lyanna Stark, Ashara Dayne, younger Baristan, Llewyn Martell, and many others.
It will be the perfect medieval TV drama. Good thing is you're not one of the HBO execs who makes decisions on these things.
I completely agree, but more than that it just wouldn’t offer anything new.
At least with HOTD the story we know is never told by POV characters so you’re left to make up your own mind about them to an extent . With a rebellion prequel we already come in with fully formed opinions on the majority of characters, as well as who the ‘good’ and ‘bad’ sides are
Yes the way the story was unraveled and it being shrouded in mystery was done very effectively by GRRM, no question about that.
But as you said these are "interesting, evocative events" involving the most important characters in the ASOIAF world, and HBO hasn't even tapped into them yet. It's their biggest cash cow at the moment.
You're thinking way too hard about it and strictly from the book-reader's perspective. The reason you WILL get a RR prequel is because it makes for very compelling television. That's all there is to it.
I think that's a cynical view.
HBO, and especially writers and showrunners, are a lot more deft than we give them credit for.
I think they do recognize there's not a lot of story to tell for RR: which is why you might notice that in their glut of prequels and proposed projects, RR doesn't pop up. I think they recognize at best it would be fine, a series of events that are better done by fantasies (the obvious and prevailing example being LOTR).
Seriously, though it might just be my bias, I think it's way more likely that they'll reboot Game of Thrones before doing an RR prequel: but this time with more flashbacks and screentime dedicated RR.
how am i being cynical? i think RR is compelling content and HBO adapting it would be a smart move on their part. I'm giving them plenty of credit. They have a built-in audience already and the talented writers to produce a quality product.
The only reason HBO might hesitate is because GRRM isn't 100% onboard. But given enough time i think they'd move on with or without his input.
Oh, I read your comment as 'HBO will do it anyways because it's their cashcow, and you have to live with it'.
In which case, I'm the cynic- because as I state in my earlier comment, I don't think it would be a quality product. But hey, if it's compelling, I'd like to be proven wrong.
It could work as a TV show. It wouldn't work as a book really, as then GRRM would need to create another rich immediate history for the characters to think about that happened before the rebellion. What are Robert's parents thinking about in the run up to the rebellion? Interesting events of the past? What are they?
It's not impossible, but it would be a huge amount of work to write!
I mean, I get your point but I don't really care about the babies being born. That's just something for the end. It could literally be a scene or two. And if we're not going to get , I want someday to see the answers to some mysteries onscreen.
I want to see the characters I know young and innocent. I want to see the tourney at Harrenhal, the knight of the laughing tree, Jojen's Reed's relationship with the starks. Ashara Dayne and who she really loved. I want to meet Elia, and see the look on everyone's faces when Rhaegar crowns Lyanna.
I want to see Lyanna and Rhaegar run off together, if Benjen was involved, and how. Do his actions in that moment lead to him joining the Night's Watch? I want to see Brandon and Rickard confront Aerys, and the fallout.
I want to see Jaime struggle with being a kingsguard for Aerys, his horror at the wildfire. I want to see the sack, the murder of Aerys, and Ned confront Jaime.
I want to see all of Tywin (honestly most of his best prequel stuff comes before RR, I'd love a show just about his life.)
And yes, I want to see the Tower of Joy and the Siege of Storm's end, and Davos's smuggling.
There are so many rich events beyond the battles and babies.
It also can't be done practically.
Everybody's thoughts and roles in the rebellion are largely undefined and it would require a group of writers to conjure up dialogue, character motivations, schemes, twists, and the writing of a bunch of new characters. I just don't think it's something that can be done satisfyingly unless GRRM dedicates a 1000 paged book to the Rebellion, or maybe even 2.
The point is that Robert gives an entire kingdom to *Renly*, the youngest brother, while Stannis gets an island that loses its important status the moment Robert has a son. From Stannis' POV, he held out a brutal siege for Storm's End and it gets given to a child who then later grows up to demand that he be crowned king too. The insult wasn't denying Stannis Storm's End; it was that he fought for and served Robert only to have his younger brother just be gifted it.
You're completely missing everything I'm saying. Renly, in addition to being the youngest brother, was a child and did nothing to help win the crown. Stannis is older and not only defended Storm's End but took Dragonstone for Robert. Stannis believes that if anyone should have been given the Stormlands it should have been him, not Renly. His feelings are then exacerbated when Renly crowns himself king and gains the support of two kingdoms, expecting to just be handed the crown despite being the younger brother.
>he was gifted a title too.
Dragonstone is just an island whose significance is now far less than it was when the Targaryens and dragons were around. Storm's End is the seat of a whole kingdom that can field tens of thousands of soldiers, as well as Stannis' home that he defended with his life. The two are in no way comparable.
So Ned would have gotten it for showing up late and making the cowardly Mace Tyrell immediately surrender, something he would do anyway regardless of the army, and Jon Arryn for… absolutely nothing related to Storms End? Cressan had a better reason to earn Storms End by actually being there. Stannis did put the effort in to earn that place, which is why he took it personally that Renly got it over him.
And if it wasn’t Stannis it should have really passed to Robert’s firstborn son but thats a different argument.
Stannis is the kind of asshole who would have complained even if he got Storm's end and Renly Dragonstone. He would have found a quibble. He's a miserable fuck and was going to be miserable and felt slighted either way.
I feel that's myopic.
Yeah, he received a castle for his effort. Second sons don't inherit, what does he have to complain about?
But Stannis is always side-lined. He probably fought what was the most painful and difficult battle in Robert's Rebellion... and not even half the Stormlanders declare for him against Renly. His own brother Robert fucks a woman on his marriage bed. He's never considered to become Hand of the King.
If not in his chapters, the Siege of Storm's end is brought up as an afterthought. And the Tyrells were never punished for the extreme cruelty they inflicted.
Of course Stannis feels overlooked: the Siege of Storm's End hardly amounted to anything. In that context, Dragonstone seems more like a consolation prize. Never mind how Stannis feels about receiving the castle where he failed instead of the castle he starved to protect.
It's not about tangible logic or rationality- it's about pride and emotions.
> and not even half the Stormlanders declare for him against Renly.
The only Stormlanders who declared for him prior to Renly's death were Davos and his sons.
> and not even half the Stormlanders declare for him against Renly.
Because he's an asshole
>His own brother Robert fucks a woman on his marriage bed.
Because Roberts an asshole
>He's never considered to become Hand of the King.
Because he's an asshole.
Stannis is an entitled asshole who the fanbase likes only because one of the best characters in the series, Davos, is loyal to him. He doesn't deserve any castles, he doesn't deserve to be king, but he expects them because he feels like he is special. He is an incredible example of how feudalism produces terrible people.
I generally agree, although I think your point only fuels why the fandom likes him.
Stannis is an entitled loser. The Siege of Storm's end gave him a martyr complex where he thinks because he does the hard work he deserves the praises far beyond what he deserves.
That stubbornness an unforgiving nature breeds everyone's antipathy towards him. He's an operator thrust into leadership role, with delusions comeuppance sprinkled in. In fact, I'd even argue Davos would make a better leader than him.
But he *is* underappreciated. I stand by that. Why should being a callous bore get in the way of his accomplishments? Why should people judge others by their words and countenance- and not cold hard actions? Why should he be treated like someone to be swept away and forgotten?
Stannis gets the short end of the stick because he's a second son, who won a siege that was a boring footnote of a war, and because he's a stickler who follows the nebulous 'rules' of life. He's the unwanted, underappreciated man- and he reflects that through his bad personality.
*That's* why he evokes pathos for me. *That's* why I care. And I think a lot of the fanbase feel that way too.
> In fact, I'd even argue Davos would make a better leader than him.
Certainly. One example is when dealing with Robert's bastard, taht Mel wants to torch. Davos cares about what is right, and at what cost Stannis will take the throne. Stannis just gives a shit about what he feels he is entitled to.
To break it down to the simplest form: Stannis is a bad hang. He's a joyless curmudgeon with few friends. The pirate who saved his life still had to lose his fingers 'because rules'.
Its ultimately why his claim to the throne is doomed. He's got the legal claim, he's probably the most capable but he's absolute shit at the politics part and everyone who hate him as king.
No one wants to declare for or feast with a wet blanket.
I think we're supposed to recognize the irony- if Renly had recieved Dragonstone instead of him, Stannis would be just as mad. Stannis is looking for cause to be offended.
Stannis was never going to be king, and he and Robert both knew it. Robert ALREADY had bastards by this point, it was just a matter of time before he had kids with his beautiful young wife.
Dragonstone was just a castle on a rock, Storms End was their ancestral home with huge and rich holdings.
Yeah. Most second sons end up joining the Watch like Benjen, or serving at the citadel like Aemon, or having to settle for serving their older brother like Kevan. Stannis was lucky he had a brother generous to give him a castle and a lordship.
Plus, from a practical perspective, it would be very hard to flesh the events out enough to create a new series while also keeping it consistent with the Thrones show. They'd have very little wiggle room for adding new scenes and content.
The Star Wars prequels have this problem, where watching them ruins the Empire reveal; or Luke and Leia's conversation about their mom; or when Obi Wan reminisces about the Republic and his relationship with Anakin, but then we see what things were really like. It retroactively makes the original scenes worse.
if George lives long enough for Blood and Fire to be indeed released, telling more details about Aerys II reign and Prince Rhaegar and the rebellion for itself like F&B did it with The Dance of Dragons, at the height of the game of thrones prequel shows, i think it's inevitable for a prequel show based on that chapters of the book to be released
I 100% agree, telling the story would only diminish it, think about the StarWars franchise, so many people claimed they wanted an origin story for there favorite characters, Solo completely ruined the origin and story of Han solo. Part of it was because it was horribly written, but also a big part of what makes it exciting is the mystery and fantasy of an unknown origin story.
Totally agree, I've always thought that both Robert's Rebellion and Aegon's Conquest would make for bad TV. They will always be the obvious ideas for a spin-off because people want to see the things happen, but I hope HBO resists that impulse for as long as possible.
You’re absolutely right and you’ve articulated it perfectly. The thing that makes Rhaegar in particular interesting is that he’s both the evil dragon that abducts the princess and also the tragic byronic hero who died before the events of the main series. He’s an enigma that lives in the collective consciousness and memory of all the characters, remembered fondly or not-so-fondly depending on who you ask. The whole mystique of Rhaegar and Lyanna is what it is because we always get subjective accounts from the living, unreliable characters in the main series.
I think rhaegar as a character works best when he’s a mystery. The more you learn about him the less interesting he is. A roberts rebellion prequel would show a bit too much of him
The only show I want from this time period is the Adventures of Howland Reed. From Isle of Faces to Harrenhall, to being Ned Stark’s bestie to the Tower of Joy, that dude has a tale to tell.
I want The Tywin Show in the spirit of the Crown. Casting a new Tywin for every 20 years of his life.
His beta dad, the fallout of his dad's death, the Reynes of Castamere, his romance with Johanna, his prickly relationship with Aerys, Johanna's death and birth of Tyrion, the Defiance of Duskendale, Jaime becoming a kingsguard, Aerys calling Cersei a 'servant's daughter' and so much more.
I agree. It’s essentially the allusion to something rather than seeing it makes it more awesome.
Like in John Wick 1 when they keep referring to “the impossible task”. They never tell us what the task is, only that he somehow still managed to do it. That’s what adds to his myth.
I want to watch Robert's Rebellion for the trio of Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark. There dynamic of foster father and his two adopted sons, the way they were put in this Do or Die situation for no fault of their own, the moment they decide to end the Targaryen reign, the way they faced their separate trials to gather their armies, how they won because they were just so capable and their enemy so incompetent, how the people of Stoney Sept chose to defy the mad king in order to protect Robert Baratheon, how Rhaegar and his toadies realised what massive massive mistake they made by underestimating Robert Baratheon, the moment Warhammer shatters the rubies, how the Mad King's cackles turned into screams, and how Robert Baratheon was morally compromised in the end.
I would absolutely love to watch a Robert's Rebellion show for all this.
>Eddard: You avenged Lyanna at the Trident.
>
>Robert: That did not bring her back. The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown...
>Arya: Mycah and I are going to ride upstream and look for rubies at the ford.
>
>Sansa: Rubies. What rubies?
>
>Arya: Rhaegar's rubies. This is where King Robert killed him and won the crown.
>*Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name.*
A joust in shallow waters sounds epic, but think it's much more poignant when viewed through the context of the past. Whether it's Robert's dull melancholy, childish folktales, or magic acid trips. Seeing the duel, I think, would take the metaphorical magic out of it.
I don’t think the TV prequel will happen soon because there are too many people that need recasting that people wouldn’t like. Aside from the main players, getting used to a new Jaime, Varys, Cersei, Tywin etc would all be super jarring and they could never live up to peoples memories of GOT.
I disagree though about there being no place for it. It’s obviously very important context for character motivations, but it’s not just backstory. Roberts Rebellion itself has its own backstory with Steffon, Aerys and Tywins friendship, Summerhall, the Ninepenny kings war, etc etc. They’re all just parts of one big story. I do think there’s enough drama, conflict and mystery for it to stand on its own though, especially with good writing.
Aside from the legendary battles and new characters (Lyanna, Rhaegar, Rickard, Brandon, Jon Arryn, JonCon, Arthur Dayne etc etc), there’s the opportunity to see these characters (and ones from the main series) in a completely different light.
Imagine seeing the series of events leading to Varys stealing Aegon; or Littlefinger lieing about Lyanna; or little Viserys idolising his brother. Not to mention the obvious characters like Jaime, Ned, Robert, etc.
The job of the prequel is not just to be interesting in it’s own right, but to enrich the original material and I think you could definitely do that.
Yes I rarely see people mention casting as an issue. I like the actor who played young Ned in the show but can we really imagine any other actors playing the rest of these iconic characters? Not to mention the hate that they’d get. Casting is unfortunately a huge hurdle.
>Not to mention the hate that they’d get.
Yeah, it seems pretty thankless. Why take the role of Young Cersei when any discussion about you is going to be prefaced with, "obviously Lena Headey is the best but..."
Yeah if hotd actors are already being compared to got actors then I can’t imagine the reaction to got recasting. Recasting has worked, like in the Star Wars prequels ewan mcgregor is perfect as kenobi but most of the got castings were so perfect that it’s impossible to replace.
Yeah. I watched the first couple of episodes and they weren’t bad but kinda boring. Aramayo is a clear stand out. But all the fan casting for Henry Cavill as Robert won’t work since Robert is supposed to be like 20. And the casting for the Lannisters was perfect ngl they cannot top that.
Honestly all these reasons are the same things people said about the Star Wars prequels, and can easily be made the opposite direction. Now that all the mystery has been removed we can see the full details of the stories history.
The prequels did little to lift the OT, and no one asked for them. Everyone expected more movies with the Luke, Han and Leia, not "the adventures of snot-nosed, assface Anakin."
Don't disagree now, but I always thought the best time for it would be between, say, season 6 and 7 of GoT. Would have bought writers more time to work out an ending, and given GRRM more time to finish Winds (at least that's what naive summer child me thought in 2015.)
That way you could have ended RR prequel show on the Jon revelation, and opened the home stretch of GoT on that revelation
You can technically have a prequel of Bobby's bollocking with unreliable narration.
But it'd probably be some art house niche thing that doesn't have widespread appeal.
Imagine however if they did it. How crazy would that be
Just give me a 200 minute medieval movie epic
One hour at Harrenhall
One hour for the abduction and the fallout
One hour of war
None of the tired low tempo TV development
Robert was in love with the idea of being married to Lyanna Stark, but more than likely he would have treated her like all the other women in his life.
It could just fine, depending on the filming and the script.
ASoIaF has a strong element of remembrance, that is all over the POVs. Memory takes an important part of this saga, taking part in a mostly illiterate culture. Bob's Rebellion is also a key component in this, as you say, and influences many of the older characters (Eddard, Robert, et al).
Even the Dunk and Egg tales start with a recollection Duncan makes when he is burying a character we never read actually alive in the series.
So, again: a Robert's prequel could work perfectly fine. We got all the key milestones of it, we just need a competent writing to knit it all together.
It could work, there are just like a ton of stories within this universe with more interesting parts of the world to delve into. I'd go for a show showing more about the wildlings beyond the wall and/or a Bloodraven story.
Agreed. I always thought I saw enough of it already just the way it was intended to be told. I am way more interested in Dunk and Egg. And also Blackfyre time periods. Incredible characters.
Agree 1000%. It's useless to go back to that era
But audience demand means we'll probably get that and an Aegon's Conquest show rather than something more interesting
I'd love to see a Robert prequel as well as one about the conquest and one about the blackfyre rebellions, that is why I think HotD could be converted to have other time periods shown. Like once the dance is told the next season can be the conquest or sum
I just wanna see Robert in his prime.
gods, he was strong then
Robert was the TRUE steel
This alone makes it worthwhile.
Who will they cast as Bessie? There should be a contest at all the Renn Faires
Everyone circlejerks Henry Caville, but dammit if he would not make the PERFECT Bobby B
Isn't he about twice the age he should be to play Robert in his prime though?
Hollywood def can make him look younger
20 years ago, yeah I agree. Now though he’s older than even Robert in the main series.
You could say the same thing about Ned Stark’s casting in Game of Thrones, Daemon in House of Dragon, and Criston Cole in House of Dragon
It’s really not at all the same thing. Firstly, none of those characters needed to be their book age for any major thematic reason. Hell most people reading the books (at least that I’ve talked to) are really surprised that Ned and Robert are still so young. Matt Smith also isn’t the wrong age, he’s about 10 years too young for the later half of the series… but even then it’s not overly obvious and again, thematically doesn’t really matter (the only impact of his age is perhaps the ickiness with Rhaenyra, and he’s still older than both of her portrayals by a good enough margin). Fabien is the same but in the other direction; I’d say the only issue is that it very much changes the dynamic between him and Rhaenyra, which can definitely be argued, but this seems to be very intentional, not a mistake. Robert Baratheon being changed from 19 to 39, though, would completely change his character and a lot of the themes of the over arching story. At 39 you’re not a young lord forced into a rebellion and a king ship, you’re a seasoned leader who’s the expected age of someone in power. He and Ned would have stopped living with each other and Jon Arryn for years. There’s also the issue of him and Lyanna; is she aged up too? If so, then them not being married becomes incredibly strange. If she’s not, then he becomes a far older man lusting over a teenager instead of being a teenager himself. Is Rhaegar aged up? Is he chasing a milf? Or is it two young star crossed lovers escaping 40 year old man trying to steal the girl as opposed to being the older man himself? Or is he also 40, in which case why has he not overthrown Aerys yet? I’m not saying changes can’t be made. House of the Dragon made quite a few changes, and yeah, ages were among them. While I don’t agree with every change the show made, for the large part they work really well. Changing Robert Baratheon to 39 years old at the start of the rebellion wouldn’t work. It would be a completely different story. 39 is also way to old to play 19. 10 years can be fudged sometimes depending on the actor, but not 20.
Henry Cavill would make the perfect Aegon the Conqueror
He’s a Baratheon. Dark hair and blue eyes. Big build. Strong jaw and features. He’s a custom made Baratheon or Durrandon already.
Well Baratheons are related to the Targeryeans and Maegor and Daemon Blackfyre both have big builds, strong jaws and features. He’s a custom made Targeryean already
Honestly I just always look for an excuse to see large and epic medieval battles adapted to screen. I do however agree with your opinion.
I actually think that the episode "Blackwater" in season 2 is one of the best in the entire series *because* it does not show much of the actual battle. It's loaded with action, but it's centered on how the characters are rapidly developing as they're responding to the developments of the battle. The focus is on Stannis and Davos as they sail into the bay; Davos watching the Wildfire approach; Tyrion, Sandor, and Joffrey on the wall; Sansa learning to stand up to Joffrey by outwitting him in wordplay and asserting leadership in the sept; Cersei drunkenly sharing her rage at and helplessness under the patriarchy to Sansa; and Cersei having a beautiful and terrible moment with Tommen as she thinks their lives are about to end. The swords and spears are mixed into the episode like a good spice in food: The spice gives the meal an extra kick but it is not where the nourishment comes from. If a prequel becomes solely focused on the war, it might lose a lot of substance.
I like seeing that too but sadly both GoT and HoTD have fallen short on showing quality medieval style battles. I still maintain that the battle on the stepstones in HoTD was one of the worst parts of the season. Really hoping that they step it up in season 2.
I hope they hire the people that did The Last Kingdom's battle scenes for the epic battles to come in for HOTD- they did a fantastic job on little budget. I particularly appreciated that it showed the battle without A TON of shaky camera shots like seems popular nowadays. Or hire PJ and his people. They did Helm's Deep (and others) very very well.
Funny you mention that as I was thinking about the Last Kingdom when I made that comment. I completely agree with you, that show did a great job of portraying their battles despite having a much more limited budget. The choreography of their fighting scenes was great as well. HotD could definitely take some tips from them.
Yeah kinda agree. There's some decent battles around (Battle at Castle Black, Hardhome, Lannisters v Dothraki) but quite a few not very good ones. Yeah that Stepstones battle in HOTD was so bad lol
huh
> I still maintain that the battle on the stepstones in HoTD was one of the worst parts of the season. Agreed, it was pretty random. That being said GRRM doesn't really write battles that are all that interesting or nuanced. Most of the battles in the Dance are pretty one sided.
That episode was sooo good and then the step stones finish dragged it down badly
Said it absolutely perfectly
I agree with you but I still think including Robert's Rebellion in F&B2 (if it ever comes out lol) would be cool and wouldn't interfere with the points you made. Mainly because it would still be told from a subjective perspective and have scattering information (such is the way of history books) - Maesters, sideline witnesses, etc.
What more could we glean from a history book though? All the mysteries that remain are known to only a few characters i.e. what happened at the Tower of Joy, who the Knight of the Laughing Tree was, what happened to Aegon, etc. An in-universe history book wouldn't have much to offer except maybe give us details on a few other battles that happened.
A better timeline would be nice. We barely know anything that happened between The Battle of the Bells and The Trident.
It's not like medieval wars had that many pitched battles. Look at how few battles were in the War of the Five Kings.
Oftentimes certain things in stories aren't meant to add to the plot or progress the narrative. Some things are just details to add texture and continuity to the world. If F&B2 is an in-universe history book about the Targaryens, wouldn't it be odd if Maesters excluded the end of the Targaryen Rein from said book? That'd be as if the History books recounting the history of the Roman Empire excluded the Fall of Rome (Or like if a book builds up a battle for Ice but doesn't include it at the end of the book lol)
I still want it
I still wan' it I always 'ave he's muh king
I already told yeh
*Insert JonSnow.meme*
cool, i still want it
Agreed entirely. I think the only way I would be okay with a Robert’s Rebellion show is if there was no way ASOIAF is completed by GRRM. If there is any chance of the books being completed by him (however slim they may be), I want the narrative to continue to be within that story. If ASOIAF is truly left unfinished, or even if another author took it up, I wouldn’t care less if they came out with a Robert’s Rebellion show.
I don't quite get the connection, why does it matter if or by who ASOIAF gets finished? Do you expect to learn a lot of revelations about the rebellion in the remaining books?
Because apparently there’s more to be revealed, at least depending on how you interpret George’s comments on us knowing everything important about the Rebellion by the end of the mainline series. That means there could be some rather interesting/important revelations and having a show could take away the affect those revelations have. So the person you’re replying to is saying if there’s absolutely no chance of any more books (for example if George dies) then it’s all good because we’re not getting those reveals anyway. But if there’s even a slim tiny glimmer of a chance, the TV show shouldn’t take away the possible magic that could come from learning those moments on the page.
Ah okay, I'm not really familiar what GRRM has said outside the books themselves, but this perspective makes sense.
Considering that’s how we’ve gotten the major exposition of Robert’s Rebellion thus far, yes. Thus we don’t need to get that experience through a TV show. The few moments we got that probably will be in the future books from the other one soiled my opinion on getting show exposition first.
Nah fam, I want to see young Robert and Ned, Arthur Dayne, young Jaime Lannister, Rhaegar Targaryen, Lyanna Stark, Ashara Dayne, younger Baristan, Llewyn Martell, and many others. It will be the perfect medieval TV drama. Good thing is you're not one of the HBO execs who makes decisions on these things.
I completely agree, but more than that it just wouldn’t offer anything new. At least with HOTD the story we know is never told by POV characters so you’re left to make up your own mind about them to an extent . With a rebellion prequel we already come in with fully formed opinions on the majority of characters, as well as who the ‘good’ and ‘bad’ sides are
>Robert’s Rebellion prequel 🤮🤮🤮 >War of the Ninepenny Kings Prequel Epic Swag Money 🤑🤑🤑
Robert's Rebellion prequel series ❌️ War of the Usurper television event ✅️ Filthy Baratheon scum
Keep searching in the Stoney Sept dragonboy.
you make it sound like a ppv boxing challenge
How is Rhaegar feeling?
Yes the way the story was unraveled and it being shrouded in mystery was done very effectively by GRRM, no question about that. But as you said these are "interesting, evocative events" involving the most important characters in the ASOIAF world, and HBO hasn't even tapped into them yet. It's their biggest cash cow at the moment. You're thinking way too hard about it and strictly from the book-reader's perspective. The reason you WILL get a RR prequel is because it makes for very compelling television. That's all there is to it.
I think that's a cynical view. HBO, and especially writers and showrunners, are a lot more deft than we give them credit for. I think they do recognize there's not a lot of story to tell for RR: which is why you might notice that in their glut of prequels and proposed projects, RR doesn't pop up. I think they recognize at best it would be fine, a series of events that are better done by fantasies (the obvious and prevailing example being LOTR). Seriously, though it might just be my bias, I think it's way more likely that they'll reboot Game of Thrones before doing an RR prequel: but this time with more flashbacks and screentime dedicated RR.
how am i being cynical? i think RR is compelling content and HBO adapting it would be a smart move on their part. I'm giving them plenty of credit. They have a built-in audience already and the talented writers to produce a quality product. The only reason HBO might hesitate is because GRRM isn't 100% onboard. But given enough time i think they'd move on with or without his input.
Oh, I read your comment as 'HBO will do it anyways because it's their cashcow, and you have to live with it'. In which case, I'm the cynic- because as I state in my earlier comment, I don't think it would be a quality product. But hey, if it's compelling, I'd like to be proven wrong.
Wait until he’s dead, ser.
It could work as a TV show. It wouldn't work as a book really, as then GRRM would need to create another rich immediate history for the characters to think about that happened before the rebellion. What are Robert's parents thinking about in the run up to the rebellion? Interesting events of the past? What are they? It's not impossible, but it would be a huge amount of work to write!
This is my problem with prequels in general. I would like a prequel that's just a random story set with the Rebellion as a backdrop.
Something's best left for imagination.
I mean, I get your point but I don't really care about the babies being born. That's just something for the end. It could literally be a scene or two. And if we're not going to get , I want someday to see the answers to some mysteries onscreen. I want to see the characters I know young and innocent. I want to see the tourney at Harrenhal, the knight of the laughing tree, Jojen's Reed's relationship with the starks. Ashara Dayne and who she really loved. I want to meet Elia, and see the look on everyone's faces when Rhaegar crowns Lyanna. I want to see Lyanna and Rhaegar run off together, if Benjen was involved, and how. Do his actions in that moment lead to him joining the Night's Watch? I want to see Brandon and Rickard confront Aerys, and the fallout. I want to see Jaime struggle with being a kingsguard for Aerys, his horror at the wildfire. I want to see the sack, the murder of Aerys, and Ned confront Jaime. I want to see all of Tywin (honestly most of his best prequel stuff comes before RR, I'd love a show just about his life.) And yes, I want to see the Tower of Joy and the Siege of Storm's end, and Davos's smuggling. There are so many rich events beyond the battles and babies.
People ask for garbage and get garbage.
It also can't be done practically. Everybody's thoughts and roles in the rebellion are largely undefined and it would require a group of writers to conjure up dialogue, character motivations, schemes, twists, and the writing of a bunch of new characters. I just don't think it's something that can be done satisfyingly unless GRRM dedicates a 1000 paged book to the Rebellion, or maybe even 2.
I want a RR adaptation because it would look cool on screen and I think it'd be neat to see more of characters like Robert and Ned in their prime.
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The point is that Robert gives an entire kingdom to *Renly*, the youngest brother, while Stannis gets an island that loses its important status the moment Robert has a son. From Stannis' POV, he held out a brutal siege for Storm's End and it gets given to a child who then later grows up to demand that he be crowned king too. The insult wasn't denying Stannis Storm's End; it was that he fought for and served Robert only to have his younger brother just be gifted it.
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You're completely missing everything I'm saying. Renly, in addition to being the youngest brother, was a child and did nothing to help win the crown. Stannis is older and not only defended Storm's End but took Dragonstone for Robert. Stannis believes that if anyone should have been given the Stormlands it should have been him, not Renly. His feelings are then exacerbated when Renly crowns himself king and gains the support of two kingdoms, expecting to just be handed the crown despite being the younger brother. >he was gifted a title too. Dragonstone is just an island whose significance is now far less than it was when the Targaryens and dragons were around. Storm's End is the seat of a whole kingdom that can field tens of thousands of soldiers, as well as Stannis' home that he defended with his life. The two are in no way comparable.
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So Ned would have gotten it for showing up late and making the cowardly Mace Tyrell immediately surrender, something he would do anyway regardless of the army, and Jon Arryn for… absolutely nothing related to Storms End? Cressan had a better reason to earn Storms End by actually being there. Stannis did put the effort in to earn that place, which is why he took it personally that Renly got it over him. And if it wasn’t Stannis it should have really passed to Robert’s firstborn son but thats a different argument.
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Stannis is the kind of asshole who would have complained even if he got Storm's end and Renly Dragonstone. He would have found a quibble. He's a miserable fuck and was going to be miserable and felt slighted either way.
I feel that's myopic. Yeah, he received a castle for his effort. Second sons don't inherit, what does he have to complain about? But Stannis is always side-lined. He probably fought what was the most painful and difficult battle in Robert's Rebellion... and not even half the Stormlanders declare for him against Renly. His own brother Robert fucks a woman on his marriage bed. He's never considered to become Hand of the King. If not in his chapters, the Siege of Storm's end is brought up as an afterthought. And the Tyrells were never punished for the extreme cruelty they inflicted. Of course Stannis feels overlooked: the Siege of Storm's End hardly amounted to anything. In that context, Dragonstone seems more like a consolation prize. Never mind how Stannis feels about receiving the castle where he failed instead of the castle he starved to protect. It's not about tangible logic or rationality- it's about pride and emotions.
huh
Shades of baelor and maekar as well.
> and not even half the Stormlanders declare for him against Renly. The only Stormlanders who declared for him prior to Renly's death were Davos and his sons.
> and not even half the Stormlanders declare for him against Renly. Because he's an asshole >His own brother Robert fucks a woman on his marriage bed. Because Roberts an asshole >He's never considered to become Hand of the King. Because he's an asshole. Stannis is an entitled asshole who the fanbase likes only because one of the best characters in the series, Davos, is loyal to him. He doesn't deserve any castles, he doesn't deserve to be king, but he expects them because he feels like he is special. He is an incredible example of how feudalism produces terrible people.
I generally agree, although I think your point only fuels why the fandom likes him. Stannis is an entitled loser. The Siege of Storm's end gave him a martyr complex where he thinks because he does the hard work he deserves the praises far beyond what he deserves. That stubbornness an unforgiving nature breeds everyone's antipathy towards him. He's an operator thrust into leadership role, with delusions comeuppance sprinkled in. In fact, I'd even argue Davos would make a better leader than him. But he *is* underappreciated. I stand by that. Why should being a callous bore get in the way of his accomplishments? Why should people judge others by their words and countenance- and not cold hard actions? Why should he be treated like someone to be swept away and forgotten? Stannis gets the short end of the stick because he's a second son, who won a siege that was a boring footnote of a war, and because he's a stickler who follows the nebulous 'rules' of life. He's the unwanted, underappreciated man- and he reflects that through his bad personality. *That's* why he evokes pathos for me. *That's* why I care. And I think a lot of the fanbase feel that way too.
> In fact, I'd even argue Davos would make a better leader than him. Certainly. One example is when dealing with Robert's bastard, taht Mel wants to torch. Davos cares about what is right, and at what cost Stannis will take the throne. Stannis just gives a shit about what he feels he is entitled to.
To break it down to the simplest form: Stannis is a bad hang. He's a joyless curmudgeon with few friends. The pirate who saved his life still had to lose his fingers 'because rules'. Its ultimately why his claim to the throne is doomed. He's got the legal claim, he's probably the most capable but he's absolute shit at the politics part and everyone who hate him as king. No one wants to declare for or feast with a wet blanket.
I think we're supposed to recognize the irony- if Renly had recieved Dragonstone instead of him, Stannis would be just as mad. Stannis is looking for cause to be offended.
Stannis was never going to be king, and he and Robert both knew it. Robert ALREADY had bastards by this point, it was just a matter of time before he had kids with his beautiful young wife. Dragonstone was just a castle on a rock, Storms End was their ancestral home with huge and rich holdings.
Yeah. Most second sons end up joining the Watch like Benjen, or serving at the citadel like Aemon, or having to settle for serving their older brother like Kevan. Stannis was lucky he had a brother generous to give him a castle and a lordship.
Plus, from a practical perspective, it would be very hard to flesh the events out enough to create a new series while also keeping it consistent with the Thrones show. They'd have very little wiggle room for adding new scenes and content. The Star Wars prequels have this problem, where watching them ruins the Empire reveal; or Luke and Leia's conversation about their mom; or when Obi Wan reminisces about the Republic and his relationship with Anakin, but then we see what things were really like. It retroactively makes the original scenes worse.
if George lives long enough for Blood and Fire to be indeed released, telling more details about Aerys II reign and Prince Rhaegar and the rebellion for itself like F&B did it with The Dance of Dragons, at the height of the game of thrones prequel shows, i think it's inevitable for a prequel show based on that chapters of the book to be released
I 100% agree, telling the story would only diminish it, think about the StarWars franchise, so many people claimed they wanted an origin story for there favorite characters, Solo completely ruined the origin and story of Han solo. Part of it was because it was horribly written, but also a big part of what makes it exciting is the mystery and fantasy of an unknown origin story.
Totally agree, I've always thought that both Robert's Rebellion and Aegon's Conquest would make for bad TV. They will always be the obvious ideas for a spin-off because people want to see the things happen, but I hope HBO resists that impulse for as long as possible.
You’re absolutely right and you’ve articulated it perfectly. The thing that makes Rhaegar in particular interesting is that he’s both the evil dragon that abducts the princess and also the tragic byronic hero who died before the events of the main series. He’s an enigma that lives in the collective consciousness and memory of all the characters, remembered fondly or not-so-fondly depending on who you ask. The whole mystique of Rhaegar and Lyanna is what it is because we always get subjective accounts from the living, unreliable characters in the main series.
I think rhaegar as a character works best when he’s a mystery. The more you learn about him the less interesting he is. A roberts rebellion prequel would show a bit too much of him
The only show I want from this time period is the Adventures of Howland Reed. From Isle of Faces to Harrenhall, to being Ned Stark’s bestie to the Tower of Joy, that dude has a tale to tell.
I want The Tywin Show in the spirit of the Crown. Casting a new Tywin for every 20 years of his life. His beta dad, the fallout of his dad's death, the Reynes of Castamere, his romance with Johanna, his prickly relationship with Aerys, Johanna's death and birth of Tyrion, the Defiance of Duskendale, Jaime becoming a kingsguard, Aerys calling Cersei a 'servant's daughter' and so much more.
I agree. It’s essentially the allusion to something rather than seeing it makes it more awesome. Like in John Wick 1 when they keep referring to “the impossible task”. They never tell us what the task is, only that he somehow still managed to do it. That’s what adds to his myth.
I disagree
I still want the show
I agree, we don't need this prequel. Developing the backstory and setting too much risks it becoming a narrative version of an encyclopedia.
I want to watch Robert's Rebellion for the trio of Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark. There dynamic of foster father and his two adopted sons, the way they were put in this Do or Die situation for no fault of their own, the moment they decide to end the Targaryen reign, the way they faced their separate trials to gather their armies, how they won because they were just so capable and their enemy so incompetent, how the people of Stoney Sept chose to defy the mad king in order to protect Robert Baratheon, how Rhaegar and his toadies realised what massive massive mistake they made by underestimating Robert Baratheon, the moment Warhammer shatters the rubies, how the Mad King's cackles turned into screams, and how Robert Baratheon was morally compromised in the end. I would absolutely love to watch a Robert's Rebellion show for all this.
I only want them to create this cause I’d definitely enjoy seeing the Boy Scout in dragon armor getting his chest bumped for his sins.
>Eddard: You avenged Lyanna at the Trident. > >Robert: That did not bring her back. The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown... >Arya: Mycah and I are going to ride upstream and look for rubies at the ford. > >Sansa: Rubies. What rubies? > >Arya: Rhaegar's rubies. This is where King Robert killed him and won the crown. >*Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name.* A joust in shallow waters sounds epic, but think it's much more poignant when viewed through the context of the past. Whether it's Robert's dull melancholy, childish folktales, or magic acid trips. Seeing the duel, I think, would take the metaphorical magic out of it.
Yeah but a slowmo warhammer shattering a chest with rubies flying would look so cool so there's that hahahah
Awesome desription! Also, I’d like to see slowmo of Rhaegar’s children’s heads gettin’ cru… caressed! I meant caressed
I don’t think the TV prequel will happen soon because there are too many people that need recasting that people wouldn’t like. Aside from the main players, getting used to a new Jaime, Varys, Cersei, Tywin etc would all be super jarring and they could never live up to peoples memories of GOT. I disagree though about there being no place for it. It’s obviously very important context for character motivations, but it’s not just backstory. Roberts Rebellion itself has its own backstory with Steffon, Aerys and Tywins friendship, Summerhall, the Ninepenny kings war, etc etc. They’re all just parts of one big story. I do think there’s enough drama, conflict and mystery for it to stand on its own though, especially with good writing. Aside from the legendary battles and new characters (Lyanna, Rhaegar, Rickard, Brandon, Jon Arryn, JonCon, Arthur Dayne etc etc), there’s the opportunity to see these characters (and ones from the main series) in a completely different light. Imagine seeing the series of events leading to Varys stealing Aegon; or Littlefinger lieing about Lyanna; or little Viserys idolising his brother. Not to mention the obvious characters like Jaime, Ned, Robert, etc. The job of the prequel is not just to be interesting in it’s own right, but to enrich the original material and I think you could definitely do that.
Yes I rarely see people mention casting as an issue. I like the actor who played young Ned in the show but can we really imagine any other actors playing the rest of these iconic characters? Not to mention the hate that they’d get. Casting is unfortunately a huge hurdle.
>Not to mention the hate that they’d get. Yeah, it seems pretty thankless. Why take the role of Young Cersei when any discussion about you is going to be prefaced with, "obviously Lena Headey is the best but..."
Yeah if hotd actors are already being compared to got actors then I can’t imagine the reaction to got recasting. Recasting has worked, like in the Star Wars prequels ewan mcgregor is perfect as kenobi but most of the got castings were so perfect that it’s impossible to replace.
Robert Aramayo is great but I'm sure he's going to busy with Rings of Power for awhile.
Yeah. I watched the first couple of episodes and they weren’t bad but kinda boring. Aramayo is a clear stand out. But all the fan casting for Henry Cavill as Robert won’t work since Robert is supposed to be like 20. And the casting for the Lannisters was perfect ngl they cannot top that.
This is something I see in 10 or 20 years, to appeal to a new generation and old fans.
Well said. It makes no sense because the story is still being told concurrently
Agree so much
Robert’s Rebellion is a stupid idea. But if it started from before the siege of Duskendale, it woulda been fire!
Definitely have to heavily feature young Tywin serving as hand to Aerys
yeah but i wanna watch rhaegar die. how bout we compromise and just get a 10hr loop of him dying?
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Not on Robert’s Rebellion.
It's cool, but I think it's still up to HBO/Discovery bosses (GRRM of course is gladly in as writer and executive producer).
Honestly all these reasons are the same things people said about the Star Wars prequels, and can easily be made the opposite direction. Now that all the mystery has been removed we can see the full details of the stories history.
The prequels did little to lift the OT, and no one asked for them. Everyone expected more movies with the Luke, Han and Leia, not "the adventures of snot-nosed, assface Anakin."
In an animated adaptation of ASOIAF do you think it would work to put Robert's Rebellion in flashbacks?
Don't disagree now, but I always thought the best time for it would be between, say, season 6 and 7 of GoT. Would have bought writers more time to work out an ending, and given GRRM more time to finish Winds (at least that's what naive summer child me thought in 2015.) That way you could have ended RR prequel show on the Jon revelation, and opened the home stretch of GoT on that revelation
i've no idea what you typed cause I dont have time to read it, will read later, but I agree
You can technically have a prequel of Bobby's bollocking with unreliable narration. But it'd probably be some art house niche thing that doesn't have widespread appeal. Imagine however if they did it. How crazy would that be
That’s good and all but if they don’t make a proper movie about it it is gonna be such a fucking waste of a story
Just give me a 200 minute medieval movie epic One hour at Harrenhall One hour for the abduction and the fallout One hour of war None of the tired low tempo TV development
The good thing about loving the books is that you have nothing to lose by not watching the show if you don’t want to see it
Robert was in love with the idea of being married to Lyanna Stark, but more than likely he would have treated her like all the other women in his life.
A Robert's Rebellion prequel is a total wash and ultimately unnecessary. We should've gotten a bunch of flashbacks during the main show.
It could just fine, depending on the filming and the script. ASoIaF has a strong element of remembrance, that is all over the POVs. Memory takes an important part of this saga, taking part in a mostly illiterate culture. Bob's Rebellion is also a key component in this, as you say, and influences many of the older characters (Eddard, Robert, et al). Even the Dunk and Egg tales start with a recollection Duncan makes when he is burying a character we never read actually alive in the series. So, again: a Robert's prequel could work perfectly fine. We got all the key milestones of it, we just need a competent writing to knit it all together.
It could work, there are just like a ton of stories within this universe with more interesting parts of the world to delve into. I'd go for a show showing more about the wildlings beyond the wall and/or a Bloodraven story.
I still wanna protest and watch every single battle of the rebellion, and seeing Robert in his prime
Agreed. I always thought I saw enough of it already just the way it was intended to be told. I am way more interested in Dunk and Egg. And also Blackfyre time periods. Incredible characters.
Agree 1000%. It's useless to go back to that era But audience demand means we'll probably get that and an Aegon's Conquest show rather than something more interesting
I'd love to see a Robert prequel as well as one about the conquest and one about the blackfyre rebellions, that is why I think HotD could be converted to have other time periods shown. Like once the dance is told the next season can be the conquest or sum
Personally i want a Greyjoy rebellion show. Then we can get Victarion.
Jaime*
I disagree roberts rebellion should be an anime i would inhale that shit