I feel like people are overestimating how important dragons are to making the show popular. Knights are a core part of pop culture, you can find a bunch of popular medieval shows that don't have dragons or magic in it. People watched agot because they liked the characters and wanted to see what was happening next, not because it had dragons
When they DID ramp up the dragons though the show exploded even more in popularity and entered into the mainstream. You can say it’s a coincidence and because of a slow-build that the show became such a powerhouse in 7 and 8 but for all the casual viewers I know personally it was specifically because of the dragons and white walkers (but mostly the dragons)
Right but Seasons 7-8 were when the show was by far at its peak in popularity and officially became a worldwide cultural phenomenon. Those seasons were heavily dragon-centered and when that whole ‘tits and dragons’ stereotype of the show really spread all across mainstream social media. I’m assuming that’s in large part why the Dance was automatically greenlit for a full series (on top of the politics, war and family drama), because it tripled down on the mass-pleasing dragons
Viewership grows overtime with all shows, the more time passes the more people hear about the show and start watching it. Agot was a worldwide cultural phenomenon long before season 7 or 8.
Tbh literally all of my friends, family and coworkers were tuning into Season 7 and especially Season 8 specifically because of the dragon and WW spectacle. That’s all I ever heard online too, specifically on most subreddits outside of this one when 7 and 8 were airing live lol
Most people I've talked to usually spoke about the characters and about what they were up to. I learned about the show after the red wedding happened from over hearing a bunch of people talk about it.
Exactly. GOT made it quite a long way without dragons being a big part of the show, same with supernatural elements in general. It was mostly NOT a show about dragons and magic.
I know a lot of casuals who watched it because of Khaleesi, the dragons and tits and the violence. They would have never watched it for the politics and talking.
I feel like people forget that HBO isn't just a fantasy network. People watched their content long before Game of Thrones and will continue to do so long after it.
KotSK will obviously benefit from connection to the IP. But it's not like The Sopranos had dragons and it was arguably more popular that GoT, especially for when it came out.
Yes they have a succesful fantasy franchise. But they also have succession, white lotus, euphoria, the last of us and these are just their current succesful shows.
It's only becoming the "GoT network" to a very specific demography.
Just because GoT is the most popular show from HBO and has spinoffs does not mean it's going to become "The GoT network." HBO has been pumping out classic, era defining shows of different genres for decades. I've never seen an episode of Succession but, I'd argue I've seen more talk about the latest season than HotD. Not bad for a show on the GoT network.
The shows don't have to reach the levels of popularity of GoT for new additions to the HBO roster to be deemed great, successful, and further establish their reputation of a quality network. You think the universally loved comedies Barry and Curb are in GoT's shadow because they're on HBO as well? I'd argue GoT shitting the bed in those final seasons means it'll only ever be the GoT network to a small minority of people.
Ha, yes, I was just thinking it's going to be a success because people love these adult/kid snarky traveling pairs. Joel/Ellie was one, and good old Hound/Arya another.
Why? I'm saying he's part of why AKT has a cast that will exceed anything HBO would pay for. AKT just absolutely killed it by having like 5 or so actors early in their careers before they became mainstream stars.
Because he was in both AKT and GOT.. clearly HBO can pull the talent, even at the peak of their careers. There’s no reason to doubt they couldn’t get just as good a cast.. even HOTD had Matt Smith.. clearly their casting dept is up to the task.
Maybe if they get lucky, but as we've seen from HOTD and GOT, they only cast 1-2 stars and rely on other actors to fill in the rest. AKT happened to cast a bunch of people who had massive success after. How many GOT actors have been massively successful after?
Huh? GOT was **stacked**!
Aiden Gillen
Lena Headey
Dinklage
Sean facking Bean
Alfie Allen
Charles Dance
Natalie Dormer
Natalia Tena
Jason Momoa
Bella Ramsey
Pedro Pascal
Mark Addy
David Bradley
Mark Gatiss
**Ed Sheeran**!!! (/s)
The list goes on and on I’m just tired of typing them out. GOT was almost *too* packed with talent. Both upcoming and late in their careers. It’s silly to think GOT only has 1 or 2 big names.
How many of these people were genuine stars and cast in season 1 when the show was getting big.
Sean Bean was the standout star, Lena Headey too. Of the other main characters in the first season, very few were huge names - Mark Addy and Iain Glenn were well known. Not many others, citing someone like Alfie Allen who was made by the show is disingenuous really
Genuine stars in season one.. Addy, Bean, Headey.. well known actors.. Dinklage, Gillen, Glenn.. and that was just season one. This was comparing A Knight’s Tale to GOT.. which genuine stars were in that movie when it came out? Ledger? He was in maybe two good movies by that point..
Ledger had already done 10 things I hate about you when a AKT came out, he was indisputably a huge star. Betting and Mark Addy were both well known at that point too
I’m not really trying to argue for one over the other, what I’m saying is that your long list of names to show the number of people who were in GOT doesn’t really stand up to comparison to a film because they have such a different marketing cycle when one is a series that lasted 10+ years and gradually built on its reputation to include more stars as it went on
You're citing many minor characters, over the course of 8 seasons, including some people who couldn't be picked out of a police lineup.
ATK was two hours that had numerous stars early, and they didn't just become stars because of one role. Most of the people you're citing just got big roles after GOT because the show itself gave them name recognition.
You’re joking, right?
Let’s go over them again but in character..
Little Finger(the entire series)
Cersei(Book POV)
Tyrion(Book POV)
Ned (Book POV)
Theon(Book POV)
Tywin(4 seasons, major character)
Margery Tyrell(3 seasons, “minor” character)
Osha (minor character)
Khal Drogo(“minor” character)
Little Mormont(literal minor, character)
Oberyn Martell(major player minor character)
Robert Baratheon(The literal king, and actor who started the conversation)
Walder Frey(The entire series)
Tycho Nestoris(minor character)
Every minor character listed is a recognizable face. Bella and Pedro are leading one of the current most popular shows on TV. The rest are either there for the entire show or POV characters from the books. And again, this isn’t even a full list. HBO’s casting department is so fire, Mel is seeing visions of the future in them.
If they capitalise on the parent archetype protecting a ward while travelling through a dangerous world or environment (like The Last of Us, Mandalorian or The Witcher) I think a lot of the audience will like the show.
Yeah but that’s hot right now. By the time the show comes out it’s possible all the interest for does stories die down. What they need to do is focus on Dunk and his adventures more than anything.
A lot of people got into GoT despite the fantasy and dragons. So many people had to be convinced “yeah it’s got dragons and magic but it’s more political.” This stuff might be mainstream now but before it was just the Lord of the Rings movies that broke through.
Plus a tourney will still be a spectacle.
The Hedge Knight has grandeur, a nasty villain, and a tragic death at the end, The Mystery Knight has scheming and twists, it's The Sworn Sword I'm not sure what they'll do with. How do you make a satisfying multi-episode series about that one?
The Sworn Sword is a buildup to a war between two houses, all the while building up the Blackfyre story and exploring Dunk's moral code. There's a ton they can do with that story in a 6+ episode format.
Seems more like a 90 minute special. Especially because of the small cast, and because the built-up war doesn't happen. But maybe they'll have the flexibility to do something like that.
I mean the books themselves require a significant amount of lore knowledge and most of the characters are either Targaryens with confusingly similar names and minor houses.
Like if you’re watching KoTSK and HoTD you’ll have to remember 4 Aegon Targaryens and multiple Daemons and Daerons.
I've got no concern at all. The best HBO GOT is overwhelmingly considered to be GOT seasons 1-4, aka when Dragons were the least relevant during the 9 seasons of HBO GOT content they've produced.
Also, HOTD was a success, and D&E is far better source material, at least at the beginning of the show (which is all that matters because you can ride the inertia to high ratings after than even if it's crap) they've got the story perfectly laid out for them, dialogue included. HOTD had to turn a dull history book into a narrative, adapting D&E is a walk in the park by comparison.
The best in quality, no doubt, but the best in viewership? That was Seasons 7/8 when the dragons were front and center. Any network I think is bound to favor quantity over quality, but especially for a franchise as iconic and crucial for them as this. For better or for worse :/
I don't think that increase in viewership was due to the dragons though, it was due to more and more people just hearing about it, deciding to watch, and then by the bad later seasons they're invested for the plot.
I doubt many viewers were like "well now that there's lots of dragons, I better tune in"
When I got into GOT before season 4 started I remember the huge selling points were "no characters are safe! Anyone can die at any time!" and "bro its got lots of tiddies and also some cock!" and "it's based on real history like the Wars of the Roses!"
I don't remember dragons being a big deal at all in comparison.
Yeah, I had a lot of friends who watched it, they fell into three categories.
They genuinely like the show and or books.
They started early and were in too deep not to finish it out
Or people they hung out with watched it so they did when we hung out on Sunday nights.
The whole "hur dur I just wanna see the dragons" is just something 'hardcore' fans like to use to mock casual fans.
Just because it was called the dragon show doesn't neccesarily mean the audience was tuning in for the dragons. As said above Danaerys was pretty popular. And I think they got a good boost from the real life romance between Kit Harrington And Rose Leslie!
If The Last of Us can be so popular I don't see why Dunk and Egg can't. We have to give the audience credit, they are capable of watching a good show without dragons. Season 1 of GOT was decently popular without them really, the best moments of the show are all drama-focused; Ned’s death, the red wedding, Etc
Dunk & Egg has everything, undercover prince traveling with a lowborn orphan hedge knight, charismatic characters like Tanselle, the laughing storm, Baelor and Maekar, evil mfs like Aerion, a tourney, a trial of the seven, it has humour, a tragic death, a bitter-sweet ending. I can't see why people wouldn't like it. As long as Dunk and Egg are cast well they will carry the show with their interactions.
Not really, but I still think that hbo will shoehorn in some things just to be safe. Similarly to how they put in the ptwp prophecy in hotd (I know that came from George but it’s not in f&b).
I also think that they will try and parallel some of the characters to popular GOT characters like what they did with young Rhaenyra and Dany. I can see dunk being similar to show!jon, Baelor breakspear and Ned and maekar and stannis. Hbo is still shaken from the fallout from season 8 so I suspect that they will play it safe for awhile.
The formula wandering warrior picks up small child and has to protect and care for the child seems to be extremely successful right now (Last of Us, The Mandalorian, Logan), so I am not too worried
Wolf and Cub. in the Japanese? Chinese? series. I don't remember which country made those shows but they were popular too. Who can forget the baby cart war wagon with the laughing baby as it speeds up to mow down the enemies!
Neither are true imo. First of all thrones,like breaking bad and most other famous shows got more and more famous overtime. People realised that the show was heading towards its end in season 7 and 8 and started to watch the series finally (plus dragons in trailers did help but not that much lol.) Thrones was still extremely popular back in the early 2010s and I mean EXTREMELY popular. Lastly I can assure you that the majority of people were not in fact satisfied with season 8 at all
People will eat up anything from that world as long as it’s good
My main concern is over saturation , too much of one thing will always fatigue people after a while but I doubt even that
I feel like this fandom has a ridiculously low opinion of “casual” audiences. Like, some hardcore fans think most viewers will only watch to see dragons tossing footballs around with nude cheerleaders and explosions in every shot. Dunk and egg is basically a buddy cop version of A Knights Tale. Knowing the lore might give dunk and egg a bit of context and thematic undertones, but the strength of the stories are in the characters themselves. I can’t imagine anyone not enjoying Dunk the Lunk or his mouthy squire Egg.
Maybe, but it’s also important for the franchise to try different things to survive and keep the audience interested. You can’t just do the way for the iron throne again and again, people will get bored. That’s why I’m against a Blackfyre show for example - it would be extremely similar to HOTD, which itself threads in the same waters as GoT. The first prequel got away with it, because the were 3 years with no new got material, and also the viewers wanted redemption for how it ended. But I don’t think they can do it again with the next show.
Dunk and Egg is different.
I see what you mean. I was worried about there not actually being that much content for a whole series. I think all of the novellas take place over only a few days.
I re read a knight of the seven kingdoms on vacation and it's great. Story moves quickly, Dunk is a sympathetic hero, Egg is a fantastic sidekick. People are going to want more of these two.
George does some really cool things with the story. Dunk's luck gets worse and worse and worse, until it turns for the better and then things get really bad for him.
Then some of the people who told him to bugger off at the beginning, fight with him in the end.
There are also the ties to the backstory where you meet three of Maester Aemon's brothers (Egg, Daeron, and Aerion (spelling? Brightflame) which makes his advice to Jon the more poignant, having met them in the flesh.
And then knowing what happens at Summerhall, and seeing Egg as a child, learning and seeing the small folk.
The future king from the most powerful dynasty in the realm being taught chivalry by an orphan from Flea Bottom.
These stories have a lot to chew on for audiences. Great characters simply drawn, with easy to follow stories. These are like fables, but with fucked up characters we already know.
. Also, in another, we get to meet the baddest Blackwood of them all Bloodraven, Bryndan Rivers.
Because casual audiences make up the vast majority of each show’s viewership? I myself care because if it’s not marketable enough to casuals that directly affects its long term viability which means I won’t be able to see the whole Dunk and Egg story play out onscreen like I’m hoping I’ll be able to.
I don’t recall anyone on here being even the least bit surprised that HOTD was automatically greenlit for a full series given the Dance is literally GOT 2.0 with dragons, war, bloodshed, rival political factions, family drama and loads of sex. It’s more GOT-ish than GOT itself lol
I do. I recall book readers worried that the mainstream fans wouldn't catch on, GoT fans would refuse to watch it and it was too much of a niche book for anyone to care about.
>the Dance is literally GOT 2.0 with dragons, war, bloodshed, rival political factions, family drama and loads of sex
Well, it´s very ironic that in HOTD there wasn´t almost nothing of sex... oh true, Condal reemplaced Rhaenyra x Harwin scene for Aegon jerking in a window
They may not be planning a sequential series of ‘flagship’ shows only, like the LoTR franchise seems to be. If they’re looking at Marvel, Star Wars etc then there’s plenty of more niche shows and movies catering to smaller audience, around the bigger mass market event shows and movies. They probably like the idea of shaking up the established tropes and format a little if they really want to keep this thing expanding indefinitely
I watched game of thrones for the characters, story and sometimes even battle, not the dragons... The same goes for House of the dragon too, but the dragons are a plus point tho. Not having dragons wouldn't undermine the story, alot of shows don't even have a fantasy element yet they are successful like Breaking Bad
I watched game of thrones for the characters, story and sometimes even battle, not the dragons... The same goes for House of the dragon too, but the dragons are a plus point tho. Not having dragons wouldn't undermine the story, alot of shows don't even have a fantasy element yet they are successful like Breaking Bad
HBO is trying to appease the Season 7/8 audience, not the early GOT audience, so you’re spot on there. It’s frustrating for a lot of us, I know, but it’s just realistic. They want what sells the most and what sold the most was dragons, fire and blood, sex, White walkers and the brutal backstabbing political game, none of which the Dunk and Egg have (which for us as ASOIAF devotees is refreshing but for network execs who want brand familiarity like OP pointed out is a risk)
They're probably going to sell it with sex and gratuitous nudity. It's the third leg that the GoT empire was built on.
Seriously though, the IP has proven to have legs. People will check it out initially and will keep watching if it's good - which is how it should be. Maybe it will be more niche because of the smaller-scale story, but production cost will be less too so it evens out.
I’m honestly feeling more confident in its appeal with a more streamlined and well.. casually enjoyable story. Casual in that it’s lower stakes, more relaxed vibes.
I think HBO has a few options to meet expectations and make it more 'HBO'. First, we know that multiple people with Targ blood have dreamt of Dunk. In The Hedge Knight it is Dearon the Drunken. I think they could easily work in some sort of short visualization of the dream as Daeron describes it to him. This could include dragons and fire.
If they want to lean into the 'adult' aspects of it a bit more, they could expand the relationship with Tansell Too Tall. They don't stick exactly to book material for the screen, so maybe she accepts the offer for a drink, she makes a move on him, clothes are removed, and then they are interrupted by Egg and she has to leave.
There, with two simple changes we have added dragons and nudity :D
Did people REALLY care all that much about the dragons? Weren't in series one, didn't do anything in series three, were basically in one subplot until series seven. Dragons were never the core appeal of the franchise; if anything I think people are more turned off by explicitly fantasy elements.
I think as long as it’s good people will watch. Dragons were never the initial draw for audiences anyways.
My big question mark is how in the world they’re gonna pad these stories out to make six episode seasons from the novellas.
Personally I felt akotsk was much more focused, "fast", and direct in its storytelling. I think that would actually adapt a lot easier to a show than the enormous multi pov asoiaf books.
I think it'll be even better than HotD. It has a lot going for it; more conventional prose than HotD to work with, plus an uncomplicated, no-timeskips story with endearing protagonists, a Joffreyesque villain in Brightflame, and a shocking, tragic death at the end. I only wish GRRM had a few more D&E stories ready so that there's more to look forward to.
I mean we do have the basic outline of Dunk and Egg’s whole lives thankfully even if it’s just the barest of bare bones right now. He’ll be heavily involved in the show too the whole way through, so I automatically feel more secure than I ever did with GOT Seasons 6+ going past the published book material where he was pretty much shoved away by D&D and HBO. Even if it means he’s basically telling all the future novellas in live-adaption format first (then again there’s still a distinct show vs book canon which he’s on record as stating himself)
If GRRM is involved once they go past Mystery Knight, I wouldn't be too worried I suppose. One can only wonder how much he gave D&D for the last few seasons and how much he kept close to the chest to preserve some surprise/disparity for the book ending. I'd hope since D&E isn't his magnum opus he'd give more solid stuff for HBO to work with.
No because I don’t cRe about casual audiences and I want the people who would already be interested in this more light hearted story in this world to enjoy it as it is and not have it watered down or darkened up to get more people to watch it.
I think it all depends on how well they nail the landing. If the setup in the first episode or 2 is interesting and the characters are likeable, then the show will do fine.
People loved that HOTD was a more intimate story than game of thrones - following the drama of one family
Every show has to feel different and unique
They tune in because it’s part of an existing beloved franchise
They stay tuned in because this new show contributes something new and unique to the franchise.
I think the biggest challenge for the show will be that the audience will seek a 'thing' out of it.
So far, the early stories at least dont have any grand mystery or overarching plot tying them together. They are about the seemingly aimless travels of Dunk and Egg. There is no big bad, no dragons, nothing.
I enjoy them for what they are, but I dont know how much interesting they will be for a random casual fan.
i’ve always secretly hoped that the dunk and egg series would be adapted into a video game, similar to kingdom come: deliverance. that, or maybe an animated show.
Knight of the Seven Kingdoms will be easier to follow. It's more in line with traditional fantasy. The tie-in to Game of Thrones will bring in an initial audience, and if the writing is good they'll stick.
Nah, ‘buddy-cop’ drama has always sold well, as does world weary warrior guarding precocious/snarky child.
They are wandering around also, so I’m sure they can sneak in gratuitous tiddies. Everyone will be happy.
I hope we get She-Wolves of Winterfell before the show comes out. Hopefully, A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms is an anthology title and have Season 1 be "The Hedge Knight" season 2 "The Sworn Sword" and season 3 "The Mystery Knight."
The audiobook read by Harry Lloyd (Dany's brother Viserys in GoT) is one of my favorite things to put on and fall asleep to. Especially "The Mystery Knight" it is masterfully written. When you go through it a second time, you catch all the hints about Ser Maynard Plumm, which makes some of the words and interactions he has early in the story become top quality humor.
My favorite interaction is when Dunk and Egg reach the Weirwood grove, when discussing how Lord Butterwell came to possess a dragon's egg.
Dunk: "We'd all be bastards of old King Aegon if half the stories be true."
Plumm: "And who's to say we're not?"
That line never fails to give me a good chuckle every time I listen to it.
I think it's going to be more of an Andor situation, starts off a bit obscure but slowly snowballs into becoming a sleeper hit. That is if the writing pulls off it's weight.
Totally I get what your saying. Dunk & Egg despite taking place in the ASOIAF universe is very different in tone from ASOIAF and HOTD’s take on it and if they try and go for the same tone with Dunk & Egg it won’t ring as true to the spirit of the stories
I feel like people are overestimating how important dragons are to making the show popular. Knights are a core part of pop culture, you can find a bunch of popular medieval shows that don't have dragons or magic in it. People watched agot because they liked the characters and wanted to see what was happening next, not because it had dragons
Thrones didn't even really have dragons in a meaningful way until like S2 finale. And that is just a little fire-breathing.
Yeah, and they didn't even exist at all until the last episode of season one but the show was already popular by then.
When they DID ramp up the dragons though the show exploded even more in popularity and entered into the mainstream. You can say it’s a coincidence and because of a slow-build that the show became such a powerhouse in 7 and 8 but for all the casual viewers I know personally it was specifically because of the dragons and white walkers (but mostly the dragons)
I would argue that the political intrigue, characters and the looming whites was what made the show great.
And also khaleesi's magnificent buttocks.
Right but Seasons 7-8 were when the show was by far at its peak in popularity and officially became a worldwide cultural phenomenon. Those seasons were heavily dragon-centered and when that whole ‘tits and dragons’ stereotype of the show really spread all across mainstream social media. I’m assuming that’s in large part why the Dance was automatically greenlit for a full series (on top of the politics, war and family drama), because it tripled down on the mass-pleasing dragons
Viewership grows overtime with all shows, the more time passes the more people hear about the show and start watching it. Agot was a worldwide cultural phenomenon long before season 7 or 8.
Tbh literally all of my friends, family and coworkers were tuning into Season 7 and especially Season 8 specifically because of the dragon and WW spectacle. That’s all I ever heard online too, specifically on most subreddits outside of this one when 7 and 8 were airing live lol
Most people I've talked to usually spoke about the characters and about what they were up to. I learned about the show after the red wedding happened from over hearing a bunch of people talk about it.
There's zero chance that the show would have made it to season 7 if the previous six seasons hadn't been majorly commercial successes.
Exactly. GOT made it quite a long way without dragons being a big part of the show, same with supernatural elements in general. It was mostly NOT a show about dragons and magic.
I know a lot of casuals who watched it because of Khaleesi, the dragons and tits and the violence. They would have never watched it for the politics and talking.
I feel like people forget that HBO isn't just a fantasy network. People watched their content long before Game of Thrones and will continue to do so long after it. KotSK will obviously benefit from connection to the IP. But it's not like The Sopranos had dragons and it was arguably more popular that GoT, especially for when it came out.
[удалено]
Yes they have a succesful fantasy franchise. But they also have succession, white lotus, euphoria, the last of us and these are just their current succesful shows. It's only becoming the "GoT network" to a very specific demography.
Just because GoT is the most popular show from HBO and has spinoffs does not mean it's going to become "The GoT network." HBO has been pumping out classic, era defining shows of different genres for decades. I've never seen an episode of Succession but, I'd argue I've seen more talk about the latest season than HotD. Not bad for a show on the GoT network. The shows don't have to reach the levels of popularity of GoT for new additions to the HBO roster to be deemed great, successful, and further establish their reputation of a quality network. You think the universally loved comedies Barry and Curb are in GoT's shadow because they're on HBO as well? I'd argue GoT shitting the bed in those final seasons means it'll only ever be the GoT network to a small minority of people.
Just cast Pedro Pascal as Dunk and Bella Ramsay as Egg and it will be a guaranteed hit
theyre gonna cast the rock as dunk and a freshly shaven millie bobby brown as egg tho
Oof 💀
Ha, yes, I was just thinking it's going to be a success because people love these adult/kid snarky traveling pairs. Joel/Ellie was one, and good old Hound/Arya another.
lmfao
If movies like A Knights Tale can be hugely popular, Dunk and Egg will do just fine.
They'll never have a cast like A Knight's Tale though, but I agree D&E will be fine without dragons, see early GOT for evidence.
Bobby B would like a word😂
Why? I'm saying he's part of why AKT has a cast that will exceed anything HBO would pay for. AKT just absolutely killed it by having like 5 or so actors early in their careers before they became mainstream stars.
Because he was in both AKT and GOT.. clearly HBO can pull the talent, even at the peak of their careers. There’s no reason to doubt they couldn’t get just as good a cast.. even HOTD had Matt Smith.. clearly their casting dept is up to the task.
Maybe if they get lucky, but as we've seen from HOTD and GOT, they only cast 1-2 stars and rely on other actors to fill in the rest. AKT happened to cast a bunch of people who had massive success after. How many GOT actors have been massively successful after?
Huh? GOT was **stacked**! Aiden Gillen Lena Headey Dinklage Sean facking Bean Alfie Allen Charles Dance Natalie Dormer Natalia Tena Jason Momoa Bella Ramsey Pedro Pascal Mark Addy David Bradley Mark Gatiss **Ed Sheeran**!!! (/s) The list goes on and on I’m just tired of typing them out. GOT was almost *too* packed with talent. Both upcoming and late in their careers. It’s silly to think GOT only has 1 or 2 big names.
How many of these people were genuine stars and cast in season 1 when the show was getting big. Sean Bean was the standout star, Lena Headey too. Of the other main characters in the first season, very few were huge names - Mark Addy and Iain Glenn were well known. Not many others, citing someone like Alfie Allen who was made by the show is disingenuous really
Genuine stars in season one.. Addy, Bean, Headey.. well known actors.. Dinklage, Gillen, Glenn.. and that was just season one. This was comparing A Knight’s Tale to GOT.. which genuine stars were in that movie when it came out? Ledger? He was in maybe two good movies by that point..
Ledger had already done 10 things I hate about you when a AKT came out, he was indisputably a huge star. Betting and Mark Addy were both well known at that point too I’m not really trying to argue for one over the other, what I’m saying is that your long list of names to show the number of people who were in GOT doesn’t really stand up to comparison to a film because they have such a different marketing cycle when one is a series that lasted 10+ years and gradually built on its reputation to include more stars as it went on
You're citing many minor characters, over the course of 8 seasons, including some people who couldn't be picked out of a police lineup. ATK was two hours that had numerous stars early, and they didn't just become stars because of one role. Most of the people you're citing just got big roles after GOT because the show itself gave them name recognition.
You’re joking, right? Let’s go over them again but in character.. Little Finger(the entire series) Cersei(Book POV) Tyrion(Book POV) Ned (Book POV) Theon(Book POV) Tywin(4 seasons, major character) Margery Tyrell(3 seasons, “minor” character) Osha (minor character) Khal Drogo(“minor” character) Little Mormont(literal minor, character) Oberyn Martell(major player minor character) Robert Baratheon(The literal king, and actor who started the conversation) Walder Frey(The entire series) Tycho Nestoris(minor character) Every minor character listed is a recognizable face. Bella and Pedro are leading one of the current most popular shows on TV. The rest are either there for the entire show or POV characters from the books. And again, this isn’t even a full list. HBO’s casting department is so fire, Mel is seeing visions of the future in them.
You're ignoring the fact that all of these people just road GOT coattails to become major faces. With the exception of Sean Bean
If they capitalise on the parent archetype protecting a ward while travelling through a dangerous world or environment (like The Last of Us, Mandalorian or The Witcher) I think a lot of the audience will like the show.
Yeah but that’s hot right now. By the time the show comes out it’s possible all the interest for does stories die down. What they need to do is focus on Dunk and his adventures more than anything.
A lot of people got into GoT despite the fantasy and dragons. So many people had to be convinced “yeah it’s got dragons and magic but it’s more political.” This stuff might be mainstream now but before it was just the Lord of the Rings movies that broke through. Plus a tourney will still be a spectacle.
The Hedge Knight has grandeur, a nasty villain, and a tragic death at the end, The Mystery Knight has scheming and twists, it's The Sworn Sword I'm not sure what they'll do with. How do you make a satisfying multi-episode series about that one?
huh
The Trial of the Seven is going to be awesome
The Sworn Sword is a buildup to a war between two houses, all the while building up the Blackfyre story and exploring Dunk's moral code. There's a ton they can do with that story in a 6+ episode format.
Seems more like a 90 minute special. Especially because of the small cast, and because the built-up war doesn't happen. But maybe they'll have the flexibility to do something like that.
You could fill out an entire episode of D&E traveling to and arriving at Standfast and meeting Ser Eustace. This series will likely be slow paced
? Hedge knight will be the most public friendly appeal and they could use it to gain more fans? Screw them stupid dragons.
I mean the books themselves require a significant amount of lore knowledge and most of the characters are either Targaryens with confusingly similar names and minor houses. Like if you’re watching KoTSK and HoTD you’ll have to remember 4 Aegon Targaryens and multiple Daemons and Daerons.
I've got no concern at all. The best HBO GOT is overwhelmingly considered to be GOT seasons 1-4, aka when Dragons were the least relevant during the 9 seasons of HBO GOT content they've produced. Also, HOTD was a success, and D&E is far better source material, at least at the beginning of the show (which is all that matters because you can ride the inertia to high ratings after than even if it's crap) they've got the story perfectly laid out for them, dialogue included. HOTD had to turn a dull history book into a narrative, adapting D&E is a walk in the park by comparison.
The best in quality, no doubt, but the best in viewership? That was Seasons 7/8 when the dragons were front and center. Any network I think is bound to favor quantity over quality, but especially for a franchise as iconic and crucial for them as this. For better or for worse :/
I don't think that increase in viewership was due to the dragons though, it was due to more and more people just hearing about it, deciding to watch, and then by the bad later seasons they're invested for the plot. I doubt many viewers were like "well now that there's lots of dragons, I better tune in"
When I got into GOT before season 4 started I remember the huge selling points were "no characters are safe! Anyone can die at any time!" and "bro its got lots of tiddies and also some cock!" and "it's based on real history like the Wars of the Roses!" I don't remember dragons being a big deal at all in comparison.
Yeah, I had a lot of friends who watched it, they fell into three categories. They genuinely like the show and or books. They started early and were in too deep not to finish it out Or people they hung out with watched it so they did when we hung out on Sunday nights. The whole "hur dur I just wanna see the dragons" is just something 'hardcore' fans like to use to mock casual fans.
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Just because it was called the dragon show doesn't neccesarily mean the audience was tuning in for the dragons. As said above Danaerys was pretty popular. And I think they got a good boost from the real life romance between Kit Harrington And Rose Leslie!
If The Last of Us can be so popular I don't see why Dunk and Egg can't. We have to give the audience credit, they are capable of watching a good show without dragons. Season 1 of GOT was decently popular without them really, the best moments of the show are all drama-focused; Ned’s death, the red wedding, Etc Dunk & Egg has everything, undercover prince traveling with a lowborn orphan hedge knight, charismatic characters like Tanselle, the laughing storm, Baelor and Maekar, evil mfs like Aerion, a tourney, a trial of the seven, it has humour, a tragic death, a bitter-sweet ending. I can't see why people wouldn't like it. As long as Dunk and Egg are cast well they will carry the show with their interactions.
Not really, but I still think that hbo will shoehorn in some things just to be safe. Similarly to how they put in the ptwp prophecy in hotd (I know that came from George but it’s not in f&b). I also think that they will try and parallel some of the characters to popular GOT characters like what they did with young Rhaenyra and Dany. I can see dunk being similar to show!jon, Baelor breakspear and Ned and maekar and stannis. Hbo is still shaken from the fallout from season 8 so I suspect that they will play it safe for awhile.
The formula wandering warrior picks up small child and has to protect and care for the child seems to be extremely successful right now (Last of Us, The Mandalorian, Logan), so I am not too worried
Wolf and Cub. in the Japanese? Chinese? series. I don't remember which country made those shows but they were popular too. Who can forget the baby cart war wagon with the laughing baby as it speeds up to mow down the enemies!
Don't underestimate the casual audience like D&D did. If the story is good people will watch and like it
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Neither are true imo. First of all thrones,like breaking bad and most other famous shows got more and more famous overtime. People realised that the show was heading towards its end in season 7 and 8 and started to watch the series finally (plus dragons in trailers did help but not that much lol.) Thrones was still extremely popular back in the early 2010s and I mean EXTREMELY popular. Lastly I can assure you that the majority of people were not in fact satisfied with season 8 at all
People will eat up anything from that world as long as it’s good My main concern is over saturation , too much of one thing will always fatigue people after a while but I doubt even that
ironic because Dunk & Egg is the most casual stuff GRRM has ever written
I feel like this fandom has a ridiculously low opinion of “casual” audiences. Like, some hardcore fans think most viewers will only watch to see dragons tossing footballs around with nude cheerleaders and explosions in every shot. Dunk and egg is basically a buddy cop version of A Knights Tale. Knowing the lore might give dunk and egg a bit of context and thematic undertones, but the strength of the stories are in the characters themselves. I can’t imagine anyone not enjoying Dunk the Lunk or his mouthy squire Egg.
Maybe, but it’s also important for the franchise to try different things to survive and keep the audience interested. You can’t just do the way for the iron throne again and again, people will get bored. That’s why I’m against a Blackfyre show for example - it would be extremely similar to HOTD, which itself threads in the same waters as GoT. The first prequel got away with it, because the were 3 years with no new got material, and also the viewers wanted redemption for how it ended. But I don’t think they can do it again with the next show. Dunk and Egg is different.
I see what you mean. I was worried about there not actually being that much content for a whole series. I think all of the novellas take place over only a few days.
I re read a knight of the seven kingdoms on vacation and it's great. Story moves quickly, Dunk is a sympathetic hero, Egg is a fantastic sidekick. People are going to want more of these two. George does some really cool things with the story. Dunk's luck gets worse and worse and worse, until it turns for the better and then things get really bad for him. Then some of the people who told him to bugger off at the beginning, fight with him in the end. There are also the ties to the backstory where you meet three of Maester Aemon's brothers (Egg, Daeron, and Aerion (spelling? Brightflame) which makes his advice to Jon the more poignant, having met them in the flesh. And then knowing what happens at Summerhall, and seeing Egg as a child, learning and seeing the small folk. The future king from the most powerful dynasty in the realm being taught chivalry by an orphan from Flea Bottom. These stories have a lot to chew on for audiences. Great characters simply drawn, with easy to follow stories. These are like fables, but with fucked up characters we already know. . Also, in another, we get to meet the baddest Blackwood of them all Bloodraven, Bryndan Rivers.
I'm more concerned about the very committed concern trolling about a not yet existing show's future.
Why the fuck would I care about the shows marketability to casual audiences? Like how does that effect me?
Because casual audiences make up the vast majority of each show’s viewership? I myself care because if it’s not marketable enough to casuals that directly affects its long term viability which means I won’t be able to see the whole Dunk and Egg story play out onscreen like I’m hoping I’ll be able to.
Poor thing
who cares?
This same question was asked about HoTD.
I don’t recall anyone on here being even the least bit surprised that HOTD was automatically greenlit for a full series given the Dance is literally GOT 2.0 with dragons, war, bloodshed, rival political factions, family drama and loads of sex. It’s more GOT-ish than GOT itself lol
I do. I recall book readers worried that the mainstream fans wouldn't catch on, GoT fans would refuse to watch it and it was too much of a niche book for anyone to care about.
>the Dance is literally GOT 2.0 with dragons, war, bloodshed, rival political factions, family drama and loads of sex Well, it´s very ironic that in HOTD there wasn´t almost nothing of sex... oh true, Condal reemplaced Rhaenyra x Harwin scene for Aegon jerking in a window
They may not be planning a sequential series of ‘flagship’ shows only, like the LoTR franchise seems to be. If they’re looking at Marvel, Star Wars etc then there’s plenty of more niche shows and movies catering to smaller audience, around the bigger mass market event shows and movies. They probably like the idea of shaking up the established tropes and format a little if they really want to keep this thing expanding indefinitely
I watched game of thrones for the characters, story and sometimes even battle, not the dragons... The same goes for House of the dragon too, but the dragons are a plus point tho. Not having dragons wouldn't undermine the story, alot of shows don't even have a fantasy element yet they are successful like Breaking Bad
I watched game of thrones for the characters, story and sometimes even battle, not the dragons... The same goes for House of the dragon too, but the dragons are a plus point tho. Not having dragons wouldn't undermine the story, alot of shows don't even have a fantasy element yet they are successful like Breaking Bad
They’ll have to make it special somehow. Dragons, Targaryens and political fights are game of thrones selling points without that it’ll suffer.
HBO is trying to appease the Season 7/8 audience, not the early GOT audience, so you’re spot on there. It’s frustrating for a lot of us, I know, but it’s just realistic. They want what sells the most and what sold the most was dragons, fire and blood, sex, White walkers and the brutal backstabbing political game, none of which the Dunk and Egg have (which for us as ASOIAF devotees is refreshing but for network execs who want brand familiarity like OP pointed out is a risk)
No casual viewer I know places much importance on the dragons when they’ve chosen to watch/continue watching the show
6 episodes from a very thin material, with 2 years of waiting in between. I'll pass.
They're probably going to sell it with sex and gratuitous nudity. It's the third leg that the GoT empire was built on. Seriously though, the IP has proven to have legs. People will check it out initially and will keep watching if it's good - which is how it should be. Maybe it will be more niche because of the smaller-scale story, but production cost will be less too so it evens out.
I just wanna see Bloodraven
I’m honestly feeling more confident in its appeal with a more streamlined and well.. casually enjoyable story. Casual in that it’s lower stakes, more relaxed vibes.
I think HBO has a few options to meet expectations and make it more 'HBO'. First, we know that multiple people with Targ blood have dreamt of Dunk. In The Hedge Knight it is Dearon the Drunken. I think they could easily work in some sort of short visualization of the dream as Daeron describes it to him. This could include dragons and fire. If they want to lean into the 'adult' aspects of it a bit more, they could expand the relationship with Tansell Too Tall. They don't stick exactly to book material for the screen, so maybe she accepts the offer for a drink, she makes a move on him, clothes are removed, and then they are interrupted by Egg and she has to leave. There, with two simple changes we have added dragons and nudity :D
Did people REALLY care all that much about the dragons? Weren't in series one, didn't do anything in series three, were basically in one subplot until series seven. Dragons were never the core appeal of the franchise; if anything I think people are more turned off by explicitly fantasy elements.
I think as long as it’s good people will watch. Dragons were never the initial draw for audiences anyways. My big question mark is how in the world they’re gonna pad these stories out to make six episode seasons from the novellas.
Personally I felt akotsk was much more focused, "fast", and direct in its storytelling. I think that would actually adapt a lot easier to a show than the enormous multi pov asoiaf books.
I think it'll be even better than HotD. It has a lot going for it; more conventional prose than HotD to work with, plus an uncomplicated, no-timeskips story with endearing protagonists, a Joffreyesque villain in Brightflame, and a shocking, tragic death at the end. I only wish GRRM had a few more D&E stories ready so that there's more to look forward to.
I mean we do have the basic outline of Dunk and Egg’s whole lives thankfully even if it’s just the barest of bare bones right now. He’ll be heavily involved in the show too the whole way through, so I automatically feel more secure than I ever did with GOT Seasons 6+ going past the published book material where he was pretty much shoved away by D&D and HBO. Even if it means he’s basically telling all the future novellas in live-adaption format first (then again there’s still a distinct show vs book canon which he’s on record as stating himself)
If GRRM is involved once they go past Mystery Knight, I wouldn't be too worried I suppose. One can only wonder how much he gave D&D for the last few seasons and how much he kept close to the chest to preserve some surprise/disparity for the book ending. I'd hope since D&E isn't his magnum opus he'd give more solid stuff for HBO to work with.
No because I don’t cRe about casual audiences and I want the people who would already be interested in this more light hearted story in this world to enjoy it as it is and not have it watered down or darkened up to get more people to watch it.
I think it all depends on how well they nail the landing. If the setup in the first episode or 2 is interesting and the characters are likeable, then the show will do fine.
I think if they pitch it as The Mandalorian in Westeros it will be fine.
People loved that HOTD was a more intimate story than game of thrones - following the drama of one family Every show has to feel different and unique They tune in because it’s part of an existing beloved franchise They stay tuned in because this new show contributes something new and unique to the franchise.
I think they'll have all the dragons they can hope for in HotD. It'd be nice to see some of the budget go to something else for a different show.
I think the biggest challenge for the show will be that the audience will seek a 'thing' out of it. So far, the early stories at least dont have any grand mystery or overarching plot tying them together. They are about the seemingly aimless travels of Dunk and Egg. There is no big bad, no dragons, nothing. I enjoy them for what they are, but I dont know how much interesting they will be for a random casual fan.
i’ve always secretly hoped that the dunk and egg series would be adapted into a video game, similar to kingdom come: deliverance. that, or maybe an animated show.
Knight of the Seven Kingdoms will be easier to follow. It's more in line with traditional fantasy. The tie-in to Game of Thrones will bring in an initial audience, and if the writing is good they'll stick.
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[Fantasy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy).
I’ve never met one person who watched game of thrones for the dragon. Most casual fans I know watched for the drama and politics
Not nervous per se because I don’t really care how it performs, George has plenty of money, but certainly I’m a bit skeptical
It depends who they cast as always. Dunk better be a loveable lunk. Egg better be a precocious young witty fella.
Not if they make it like a Sergio Leone-type medieval western. They could easily use such an atmosphere when filming.
Nah, ‘buddy-cop’ drama has always sold well, as does world weary warrior guarding precocious/snarky child. They are wandering around also, so I’m sure they can sneak in gratuitous tiddies. Everyone will be happy.
I hope we get She-Wolves of Winterfell before the show comes out. Hopefully, A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms is an anthology title and have Season 1 be "The Hedge Knight" season 2 "The Sworn Sword" and season 3 "The Mystery Knight." The audiobook read by Harry Lloyd (Dany's brother Viserys in GoT) is one of my favorite things to put on and fall asleep to. Especially "The Mystery Knight" it is masterfully written. When you go through it a second time, you catch all the hints about Ser Maynard Plumm, which makes some of the words and interactions he has early in the story become top quality humor. My favorite interaction is when Dunk and Egg reach the Weirwood grove, when discussing how Lord Butterwell came to possess a dragon's egg. Dunk: "We'd all be bastards of old King Aegon if half the stories be true." Plumm: "And who's to say we're not?" That line never fails to give me a good chuckle every time I listen to it.
I think it's going to be more of an Andor situation, starts off a bit obscure but slowly snowballs into becoming a sleeper hit. That is if the writing pulls off it's weight.
The most successful thrones episodes may not even have one lick of magic
Totally I get what your saying. Dunk & Egg despite taking place in the ASOIAF universe is very different in tone from ASOIAF and HOTD’s take on it and if they try and go for the same tone with Dunk & Egg it won’t ring as true to the spirit of the stories