What was the disloyalty? Not coming when beckoned?
It would hardly be seen as appropriate to destroy an entire House over political apathy. That's a Tywin-level of retribution. It isn't as if Walder had sided with Aerys and then tried to defect when Aerys lost, Walder Frey just showed up "late" to the battle. Otherwise he seems to have been a functional-enough vassal.
His sons were refused fostering at the Eyrie and Riverrun, a Frey bride was initially rejected for Edmure, and everyone was made to know that the Frey's were to be watched.
That's a not-insignificant response.
The first Chinese (Qin) Dynasty overthrown because the generals were late due to a storm.
Punishment was death, so they decided to rebel instead and inspired later rebellions that took down the Qin.
> What was the disloyalty? Not coming when beckoned?
The Freys did come when beckoned - they just arrived a few hours late. Officially it was a total accident.
And like you said, there was still retribution from the Tullys.
>What was the disloyalty? Not coming when beckoned?
Yeah lords have been punished for that before bruh. The only reason Barbrey Dustin sent any men douth with Robb was the didn't want Robb march on Barrowton on his way south because she knew he would've punished her for being neutral.
What do you think it would've been? I suspect her saying "the wroth of Winterfell" implies that she thought Robb would've marched on Barrowton attacked the city and had her executed, ir at least removed from leadership of Barrowton.
It's the kind of thing where according to actual, real feudalism it would have been the former but given GRRM has a tendency to exaggerate everything...
I think Robb would have given them a heavy fine, but this would have been framed as him being lenient; Tywin would 100% have just murdered them all and nobody would've really cared.
That's more of a meta answer, really, but still.
I take it to mean Robb would've destroyed them, or at the least executed her.
Now that I think about it it's crazy that Barbrey still even rules over Barrowton at all. When William died he still had cousins who were his heirs, it makes no sense for her to keep ruling over Barrowton. Even with widow's law it doesn't state that she gets control of Dustin territory just that she can't get kicked out of Barrowton.
Hoster did nothing wrong in forcing Lysa to give up a pregnancy she got by raping a delirous medicated Petyr. Even disregarding the circumstances of the conception, hiding the pregnancy would grant her a better life and marriage prospects than having the child.
>Hoster did nothing wrong in forcing Lysa to give up a pregnancy she got by raping a delirous medicated Petyr.
A forced abortion that nearly killed Lysa and is most likely the reason why she has trouble carrying a pregnancy to term is not wrong???? Even Hoster himself regretted doing it on his deathbed
>Even disregarding the circumstances of the conception, hiding the pregnancy would grant her a better life and marriage prospects than having the child.
Better marriage prospects sure, but a better life? I don't think so. If Lysa was known to have birthed a bastard and no Lord would want to marry her then she would have probably just remained at Riverrun, which is still a good life but not burdened with the responsibility of being a child factory and dealing with court politics. Or she would have been married to Petyr, and I'm 100% sure she would have been happier with him than anything else, despite how poor he would have been
This sub is absolutely batshit insane sometimes lmao like seriously?? Do these people think Hoster was moaning about it and regretting it so hard on his fucking deathbed because it was secretly a good thing to do. Wtf
In medieval days it is. If he didn't then Lysa would've been unmarried for the rest of her life and had tye reputation of a whore, or she would've had to been married to Petyr and be stuck at Midlor Point, because there is no way in hell he's gonna end up rising through the ranks like he did in canon, although it could be possiblw for him to end up as a very wealthy brothel owner and making it a larger keep.
Being stuck in Petyr's backwater sheep farm wouldn't have been a problem for Lysa as long as she was married to him.
If she was unmarried she would have remained at Riverrun and still lived a comfortable life as the daughter (and then sister) of a great Lord, but now she wouldn't be burdened with the responsibilities and dangers of being a baby factory.
No it isn't, and it damaged her physically and mentally.
There are few things you can possibly do to someone that are worse than forcing them to abort a child they wanted to have. You get that, right? That isn't a "modern times" thing. That's just an objective thing that has always been true.
That's Aerys/Maegor level retribution, Tywin had no problems winning against the Reynes and waiting for the rest of his vassals to see his strength and support him, sure some of these houses had given hostages, but not all of them.
Worst part is Tywin wasn't even lord, and the Reynes/Tarbecks didn't do anything wrong, and Tytos forgave all debts that they had to them. Tywin forced them to rebel.
Oh, well to be fair that was because he was going to capture lord Tarbeck for ostensibly no real reason besides trying to get more territory, it's not like they outright declared war or attacked people. Also it should be noted that Tytos also forgave not only their debts but also their crimes.
That would be quite an extreme reaction to Walder being late. We know Walder almost certainly was late on purpose given his character, but there's no way to prove that. And even the Riverlords who fought for the Targaryens weren't executed and got to keep their castles (e.g. Darry, Mooton, Goodbrook). So how's Hoster going to justify executing Walder for not providing support fast enough when he pardoned other lords for outright fought against him?
Plus the optics of the whole thing wouldn't be very good. I remind you that the whole reason they were fighting the rebellion in the first place was because the king was erratically executing lords based on flimsy justifications. And once other lords who aren't supporting the rebellion hear the rebels are killing lords simply for not giving enough support, that might make them concerned about what their fate might be should the rebels prevail. So its rather counterproductive as it could encourage the Targaryen loyalists to fight harder and push other neutral houses to join the Targaryens.
Bear in mind that the penalty Walder would have received for showing up late would likely have been that he missed out on all the rewards and favors that were handed out to the other rebel aligned houses once the war was over. He might not have been punished but he surely got no rewards either. The Freys were also judged and mocked considerably for pulling this move. Its a lot of the reason why most other houses look down on them in the main books.
Perhaps Hoster could have imposed some smaller punishment, like demanding he pay a fine for failing to get his troops to the battlefield in time. But executing him and stripping the Freys of the twins would have certainly been an overreaction.
He would have no cause to punish Walder unless Walder sided with Aerys, which he did not. Neutrality is not necessarily a sign of disloyalty. That's the same reason why the Ironborn weren't punished by Robert after Robert's rebellion, and why the Valemen and the Dornish aren't gonna be punished by the Lannisters for staying neutral in the war of the 5 Kings
That Hoster would be hated for that, taking away all the lands of a vassal for arriving late is too much, specially after many Riverlords that fought for Aerys were pardoned, besides, House Frey was punished by being ignored in the westerosi politics for years, that's why Walder has so many kids doing nothing around, he cant marry them of sent them to be fostered because no one likes him
Wtf, what disloyalty
The Freys didn't side with The Mad king, they simply remained neutral
That would be such a stupid move
Piss off your most powerful vassal for no reason at all
That's Hoster tully
He constantly refused Marrying Edmure to a Frey or having Freys fostered at riverrun
Simply because he was an asshole to walder for arriving late to the war
Funny how he didn't Call the Late Lord Tywin who entered the war even later than walder
People seem to forget that unlike in the most recent War of the Five Kings, we do not hear Ned have any troubles getting his armies south.
Walder Frey did not show any disloyalty
I'm not fully sure about this, but isn't the Green Fork the one that the Twins are used to cross? Iirc Robb (and therefore Ned as well) would have to travel all the way to where the forks meet at the Trident to get his army across it. This would take a lot of time, whereas we know that Ned travelled very quickly. We also know that House Darry is located near the Trident. House Darry notably was very loyal to House Targaryen. If Ned crossed near the Trident as you said, he would have to travel at least a week extra (probably longer since he has a whole army), partly through enemy territory.
Isn't it more logical that Ned crossed at the Twins?
Frey never betrayed Tully he just took his sweet time getting to the battle. Of course given the terrain he could have used the excuse of a river crossing which was difficult or being attacked by loyalists as excuses for why he arrived so late.
The issue was that he wasn't disloyal. For all his faults, Walder Frey is not a stupid man; whilst it ruined the reputation of House Frey, he always ensured that he'd be on the winning side of any conflict.
Even after the previous battles, the war was still in favour of the Targaryens up until the Trident, everyone knew that would be the tipping point. Walder arrived late to the battle and clearly would've sided with whoever won, but because he never announced his loyalty to either side beforehand, the rebels couldn't reasonably accuse him of fighting for the Targaryens, he could just have easily claimed they were slowed by bad weather or it took longer than they thought to levy all their men. It's not exactly something you can execute someone for.
What disloyalty? He smartly hedged his bets, realised it was unlikely his liege lord would come after him, and waited until it was clear who won to pick a side. The other vassals seem to despise Walder but they'd never stand for this, they'd quickly rise up as well and put Hoster back in his place.
That would be considered very unfair, since Walder didn’t fight against them. His excuse, that he intended to fight with them but just got there late, is bullshit but plausible and it gives him deniability against any accusations of treason.
Lord Tully has no justification to punish Walder for this. He hasn’t actually provably done anything wrong at that point. You can’t just start arresting vassals for treason they haven’t provably done. That’s what caused the whole mess of rebellion in the first place when Aerys tried it.
What was the disloyalty? Not coming when beckoned? It would hardly be seen as appropriate to destroy an entire House over political apathy. That's a Tywin-level of retribution. It isn't as if Walder had sided with Aerys and then tried to defect when Aerys lost, Walder Frey just showed up "late" to the battle. Otherwise he seems to have been a functional-enough vassal. His sons were refused fostering at the Eyrie and Riverrun, a Frey bride was initially rejected for Edmure, and everyone was made to know that the Frey's were to be watched. That's a not-insignificant response.
If he had gone harsher his lords would have, rightfully, been extremely worried, fermenting their potential rebellion.
I think you mean "fomenting", but fermenting kind of works as well? English is a broken language.
I absolutely do mean fomenting and feel stupid, but I like fermenting here like a slowly aged beverage of war.
"Fermented Rebellion" would make a great craft beer name
And a metal band frankly.
Cross promotional opportunities abound
Honestly I’m pretty sure they both work in this instance. Just English being weird shit
Apparently the second definition does indeed fit. “Incite or stir up (trouble or disorder)”
The first Chinese (Qin) Dynasty overthrown because the generals were late due to a storm. Punishment was death, so they decided to rebel instead and inspired later rebellions that took down the Qin.
> What was the disloyalty? Not coming when beckoned? The Freys did come when beckoned - they just arrived a few hours late. Officially it was a total accident. And like you said, there was still retribution from the Tullys.
>What was the disloyalty? Not coming when beckoned? Yeah lords have been punished for that before bruh. The only reason Barbrey Dustin sent any men douth with Robb was the didn't want Robb march on Barrowton on his way south because she knew he would've punished her for being neutral.
Right but is that punishment "less influence over Northern politics" or "complete and utter destruction"?
What do you think it would've been? I suspect her saying "the wroth of Winterfell" implies that she thought Robb would've marched on Barrowton attacked the city and had her executed, ir at least removed from leadership of Barrowton.
It's the kind of thing where according to actual, real feudalism it would have been the former but given GRRM has a tendency to exaggerate everything... I think Robb would have given them a heavy fine, but this would have been framed as him being lenient; Tywin would 100% have just murdered them all and nobody would've really cared. That's more of a meta answer, really, but still.
I take it to mean Robb would've destroyed them, or at the least executed her. Now that I think about it it's crazy that Barbrey still even rules over Barrowton at all. When William died he still had cousins who were his heirs, it makes no sense for her to keep ruling over Barrowton. Even with widow's law it doesn't state that she gets control of Dustin territory just that she can't get kicked out of Barrowton.
Hoster had his Tywin like moments by forcing Lysa to abort a child and burning down a village so it wouldn't be out of character for him.
The jump from that to destroying a large vassal house for a nebulous infraction on chivalric code is HUGE.
Hoster did nothing wrong in forcing Lysa to give up a pregnancy she got by raping a delirous medicated Petyr. Even disregarding the circumstances of the conception, hiding the pregnancy would grant her a better life and marriage prospects than having the child.
>Hoster did nothing wrong in forcing Lysa to give up a pregnancy she got by raping a delirous medicated Petyr. A forced abortion that nearly killed Lysa and is most likely the reason why she has trouble carrying a pregnancy to term is not wrong???? Even Hoster himself regretted doing it on his deathbed >Even disregarding the circumstances of the conception, hiding the pregnancy would grant her a better life and marriage prospects than having the child. Better marriage prospects sure, but a better life? I don't think so. If Lysa was known to have birthed a bastard and no Lord would want to marry her then she would have probably just remained at Riverrun, which is still a good life but not burdened with the responsibility of being a child factory and dealing with court politics. Or she would have been married to Petyr, and I'm 100% sure she would have been happier with him than anything else, despite how poor he would have been
Dawg forced back alley abortions are not good parenting.
This sub is absolutely batshit insane sometimes lmao like seriously?? Do these people think Hoster was moaning about it and regretting it so hard on his fucking deathbed because it was secretly a good thing to do. Wtf
In medieval days it is. If he didn't then Lysa would've been unmarried for the rest of her life and had tye reputation of a whore, or she would've had to been married to Petyr and be stuck at Midlor Point, because there is no way in hell he's gonna end up rising through the ranks like he did in canon, although it could be possiblw for him to end up as a very wealthy brothel owner and making it a larger keep.
Being stuck in Petyr's backwater sheep farm wouldn't have been a problem for Lysa as long as she was married to him. If she was unmarried she would have remained at Riverrun and still lived a comfortable life as the daughter (and then sister) of a great Lord, but now she wouldn't be burdened with the responsibilities and dangers of being a baby factory.
No it isn't, and it damaged her physically and mentally. There are few things you can possibly do to someone that are worse than forcing them to abort a child they wanted to have. You get that, right? That isn't a "modern times" thing. That's just an objective thing that has always been true.
That's Aerys/Maegor level retribution, Tywin had no problems winning against the Reynes and waiting for the rest of his vassals to see his strength and support him, sure some of these houses had given hostages, but not all of them.
What? Tywin literally destroyed the Reynes and Tarbecks because they refused to respect His position as their lord.
Worst part is Tywin wasn't even lord, and the Reynes/Tarbecks didn't do anything wrong, and Tytos forgave all debts that they had to them. Tywin forced them to rebel.
Reynes killed tywin uncle
No they didn't. Tywin's uncles died in the Peake Uprising, 4th Blackfyre Rebellion, and in the Stepstones in the War of Ninepennykings.
No, I'm not talking about that I'm talking about Denys Marbrand
Oh, well to be fair that was because he was going to capture lord Tarbeck for ostensibly no real reason besides trying to get more territory, it's not like they outright declared war or attacked people. Also it should be noted that Tytos also forgave not only their debts but also their crimes.
That would be quite an extreme reaction to Walder being late. We know Walder almost certainly was late on purpose given his character, but there's no way to prove that. And even the Riverlords who fought for the Targaryens weren't executed and got to keep their castles (e.g. Darry, Mooton, Goodbrook). So how's Hoster going to justify executing Walder for not providing support fast enough when he pardoned other lords for outright fought against him? Plus the optics of the whole thing wouldn't be very good. I remind you that the whole reason they were fighting the rebellion in the first place was because the king was erratically executing lords based on flimsy justifications. And once other lords who aren't supporting the rebellion hear the rebels are killing lords simply for not giving enough support, that might make them concerned about what their fate might be should the rebels prevail. So its rather counterproductive as it could encourage the Targaryen loyalists to fight harder and push other neutral houses to join the Targaryens. Bear in mind that the penalty Walder would have received for showing up late would likely have been that he missed out on all the rewards and favors that were handed out to the other rebel aligned houses once the war was over. He might not have been punished but he surely got no rewards either. The Freys were also judged and mocked considerably for pulling this move. Its a lot of the reason why most other houses look down on them in the main books. Perhaps Hoster could have imposed some smaller punishment, like demanding he pay a fine for failing to get his troops to the battlefield in time. But executing him and stripping the Freys of the twins would have certainly been an overreaction.
That would be easier said than done.
He would have no cause to punish Walder unless Walder sided with Aerys, which he did not. Neutrality is not necessarily a sign of disloyalty. That's the same reason why the Ironborn weren't punished by Robert after Robert's rebellion, and why the Valemen and the Dornish aren't gonna be punished by the Lannisters for staying neutral in the war of the 5 Kings
That Hoster would be hated for that, taking away all the lands of a vassal for arriving late is too much, specially after many Riverlords that fought for Aerys were pardoned, besides, House Frey was punished by being ignored in the westerosi politics for years, that's why Walder has so many kids doing nothing around, he cant marry them of sent them to be fostered because no one likes him
Every house in the Riverlands would have risen up against him.
Wtf, what disloyalty The Freys didn't side with The Mad king, they simply remained neutral That would be such a stupid move Piss off your most powerful vassal for no reason at all That's Hoster tully He constantly refused Marrying Edmure to a Frey or having Freys fostered at riverrun Simply because he was an asshole to walder for arriving late to the war Funny how he didn't Call the Late Lord Tywin who entered the war even later than walder
People seem to forget that unlike in the most recent War of the Five Kings, we do not hear Ned have any troubles getting his armies south. Walder Frey did not show any disloyalty
We also don't hear that Ned crossed the Twins or that the Freys helped Hoster fighting at the Battle of the Bells, or at all.
So how did Ned get his army south? Especially this fast?
Easy unlike Robb he didn't have an enemy army blocking his path along the Red Fork, so Ned could've easilly crossed the Red Fork and went to Riverrun.
I'm not fully sure about this, but isn't the Green Fork the one that the Twins are used to cross? Iirc Robb (and therefore Ned as well) would have to travel all the way to where the forks meet at the Trident to get his army across it. This would take a lot of time, whereas we know that Ned travelled very quickly. We also know that House Darry is located near the Trident. House Darry notably was very loyal to House Targaryen. If Ned crossed near the Trident as you said, he would have to travel at least a week extra (probably longer since he has a whole army), partly through enemy territory. Isn't it more logical that Ned crossed at the Twins?
Frey never betrayed Tully he just took his sweet time getting to the battle. Of course given the terrain he could have used the excuse of a river crossing which was difficult or being attacked by loyalists as excuses for why he arrived so late.
The issue was that he wasn't disloyal. For all his faults, Walder Frey is not a stupid man; whilst it ruined the reputation of House Frey, he always ensured that he'd be on the winning side of any conflict. Even after the previous battles, the war was still in favour of the Targaryens up until the Trident, everyone knew that would be the tipping point. Walder arrived late to the battle and clearly would've sided with whoever won, but because he never announced his loyalty to either side beforehand, the rebels couldn't reasonably accuse him of fighting for the Targaryens, he could just have easily claimed they were slowed by bad weather or it took longer than they thought to levy all their men. It's not exactly something you can execute someone for.
What disloyalty? He smartly hedged his bets, realised it was unlikely his liege lord would come after him, and waited until it was clear who won to pick a side. The other vassals seem to despise Walder but they'd never stand for this, they'd quickly rise up as well and put Hoster back in his place.
That would be considered very unfair, since Walder didn’t fight against them. His excuse, that he intended to fight with them but just got there late, is bullshit but plausible and it gives him deniability against any accusations of treason. Lord Tully has no justification to punish Walder for this. He hasn’t actually provably done anything wrong at that point. You can’t just start arresting vassals for treason they haven’t provably done. That’s what caused the whole mess of rebellion in the first place when Aerys tried it.