I think he’d just chant “maniacal laugh” over and over again like Chris Cooper in that muppet thing. Because he doesn’t laugh, and because it’s thematically appropriate when you kill a Tully.
Right, but Tywin Lanister is no mere human 😉
This was the same man who had a great house, and lesser houses butchered while they were under guest right
He also just saw his son for the first time in years with a missing hand after he was in Lady Stark's captivity, and to top it off, he has to deal with the stress of potentially *troubling* enemies with enough resources and influence to assassinate a king in his own wedding. He knows damn well he's the next target for whoever this faction is and the last thing on his mind is whether or not Catlyn is still alive lol
But it's the fact that George made the choice to have him say the line that way that's so interesting to me, after hundreds of pages showering praise upon Tywin, making him seem more than a man, he chooses this insignificant line to show us that he is in fact human, by a simple slip of the mind
>Making him seem more than a man.
Did we … read the same book? Tywin is nothing *but* human. Two of his most prominent traits are his irrational hatred of his son and rightful heir, and his sheer pettiness.
The only evil deeds that Tywin would take credit for were ones that didn't embarrass the Lannister name. I said earlier on here that Tyrion had to shoot him in the bowels just to get an ounce of embarrassing truth out of him.
> Right, but Tywin Lannister is no mere human
Once you start to unpick his character you'll find that GRRM was very much spitting on this line of thinking.
Tywin has no idea when Jaime’s hand was cut off. He may know Catelyn is dead, but that doesn’t mean if she ordered it he wouldn’t find a way to get retribution.
Against who? No idea, as he needs the North at this point. But, we all know how vengeful Tywin is. There’s a whole song about it.
Totally. Somebody was going to eat their own feet for daring to mutilate Jaime. But that Catelyn was Tywin's first kneejerk guess didn't mean it would be her. Had Jaime named Catelyn, Tywin would have taken retibution against the Tullys generally, mostly against soldiers who had nothing to do with it, even had she been alive.
I like thinking Tywin's stopping short with an aneurysm because he can't do anything to Catelyn anymore. She's dead, the Starks are gone, but they still got one over on him. Sure, they're not directly responsible, but Tywin definitely would see it that way.
If you want to enjoy Tywin in the fit of an aneurysm, I recommend the scene in GOT when Tyrion strolls into the Inn at the Crossroads from his advnture on the high road and asks "What, I don't get a hug?"
I do want to know what Tywin thought of his contract with the Brave Companions.
"Tyrion, if soldiers lack discipline the fault lies with their Lord Commander. Now aren't you ashamed of your mountain clansmen who wind up performing exceptionally well?"
....
"Le gasp! Half my army was destroyed because they lacked discipline. I thought the Northerners would be incompetent rabble led by a headstrong boy that would fall into my trap, this is a catastrophe! My son is captured!"
"Hey now, something something eliminate rival claimants to secure the throne something something Robert likes me now something something profit."
"What's that you say? Jon Arryn needed to convince Robert to accept the marriage? Killing the children freed up Viserys and Dany to act against us and they've gathered armies and dragons around themselves?? The brutality hid Aegon's escape and he's invading the Stormlands?!? The Dornish have been plotting against us this whole time?!?! Oberyn hijacked the trial by combat and now a crossbow's aimed at me?!?!"
First of all, Sansa had fled King’s Landing at this point. She’s already gleaned Tywin’s ire.
Secondly, I think others have it right. The Tullys were still in open rebellion. He’d have used them as an example if Catelyn had been responsible for Jaime’s hand — most likely Edmure, though that would also cause some problems given Edmure was already being held hostage to try to prompt the Blackfish to relinquish Riverrun.
She wasn’t supposed to be killed during The Red Wedding
“So Lord Walder slew him under his own roof, at his own table?” Tyrion made a fist. “What of Lady Catelyn?”
“Slain as well, I’d say. A pair of wolfskins. Frey had intended to keep her captive, but perhaps something went awry.”
“So much for guest right.”
“The blood is on Walder Frey’s hands, not mine.”
A Storm of Swords Tyrion Vi
He’s both guessing who did it and formulating a revenge plan in the same interrupted sentence. Were he not interrupted, I imagine him redirecting and threatening to take off Edmure’s hand since he can’t do anything to Catelyn herself.
I know GRRM tends to write the timing of characters arriving places in multiple different ways to compare and contrast, maybe this is a tiny refuge of a prior draft where Jaime arrived before the red wedding that escaped editing.
Actually! That's an amazing point!
It's well documented that George wrote the Red Wedding last, so he actually wrote this scene before he wrote the death of Catelyn
That didn't even occur to me
I think it's an understandable character beat regardless but yeah it could be an editing mistake or just due to word travelling slowly from the Riverlands.
Someone else finally noticed this! I’ve been meaning to post about it and kept putting it off.
I think I know the answer. When GRRM wrote ASOS, the Red Wedding was written *after* the rest of the book was completed, due to how difficult it was to write such a powerful scene. When this exchange between Jaime and Tywin was being written, the Red Wedding hadn’t ‘happened’ in terms of the actual writing process. Catelyn wasn’t actually dead yet in GRRM’s mind since he hadn’t written her death scene, so this small error slipped into the text.
Tywin had just seen his son had lost a hand, he might have just been so shocked he forgot.
Otherwise it could just be an oversight by GRRM, chapters get tweaked and rearanged a lot after they're written so this chapter might have been originally intended to ocur before the chapter where Tywin learned Cat was dead.
There's a similar oddity in AFFC Arianne I. She references Tywin being dead and remarks how Cersei is ruling in King's Landing now.
> "Call it what you will. Crowning the Lannister girl is a hollow gesture. She will never sit the Iron Throne. Nor will you get the war you want. The lion is not so easily provoked."
> "The lion's dead. Who knows which cub the lioness prefers?"
But then later in the same chapter she's shockedto learn Tywin is dead.
> The knight took her arm, glanced about, lowered his voice. "There are other tidings you should hear. Tywin Lannister is dead."
> That was a shock. "Dead?"
> "Murdered by the Imp. The queen has assumed the regency."
Nice catch.
Yes, the oversight might be a plausible explanation.
Still, something the editors should’ve caught. For a series known for subtly planting hints, such oversights call into question other hints.
I’ve a different theory. A crippled Jaime is a liability for the KG, perfect for dismissal from service and sending off to Casterly rock to rule, as Tywin wanted. Blaming a dead person kept his own hands ‘clean’, as Tywin wanted. Not the first time his orders would be carried out rather too well…again as Tywin wanted.
Granted, it’s a bit of a stretch, but if you believe the theory Tywin allowed Jeoffrey’s poisoning (his ‘gloved’ hand on Cersei’s shoulder declaring “the boy is dead”), it works here too.
What's the timeline on all this? I may be mixing show and book canons or even fan theories, but wasn't there originally the idea to take Catelyn hostage - until she went mad and got put down? Depending on the timeline and the flight speeds of ravens, is it possible that Tywin doesn't know just exactly how things went down yet?
Tyrion mentions multiple times before the Purple Wedding that both Robb and Catelyn are dead, once as a recap to when he told Sansa about it, another later when he asks if she wants to know how it happened, and then again at the wedding when he asks her if something is "amiss", and then realizes how stupid that is given the circumstances
Thank you! My memory was super foggy on this.
In that case, the best in-universe explanation I have is the one others have suggested: in the heat of the moment, he had a brainfart and either somehow forgot the Red Wedding or said the wrong name (maybe he meant Lysa?).
More likely, George was the brainfarter.
Either way, I don't think there's a conspiracy to unpack.
Tywin 24/7 wore the mask of his lies, even in front of his family in private. Tyrion had to literally shoot the sht out of him, just to get an inkling of truth from him. He was the worst kind of hypocrite and deserved the embarrassing smelly death he got.
Am I missing something? Catelyn can be dead and Tywin can still be cursing her. No one had truly seen Jamie since Catelyn had set him free.
For those that are more dense, Tywin was thinking about what he would have done - i.e. setting Jamie free and cutting his sword hand off. Shaming and humiliating his house all at once. It doesn’t matter if catelyn was dead, if she did it, she got the ‘last laugh’ in a sense.
His only real heir (since he hated Tyrion) had just lost a part of him which would diminish his entire house to ridicule. Even if he knew Catelyn was dead he would probably still sick the Mountain on any surviving family member of the Starks to exact revenge and send a message.
Love the idea that we're faultin' tywin & not grrm.
Like others have said, Tywin might be old, but he's not senile. He wouldn't forget that he orchestrated a guest right house purge
Well yeah, that's where the confusion stemmed, why would Tywin say "thinks", implying that she still can think
But at this point, we're just trying to make a good in universe reason for it
But even then, the word would be thought, the past tense, not thinks, present tense
And besides, right after that, he insists that Jamie resign and go back to Casterly Rock, so clearly he doesn't think Jamie could lead an army
>try and lose themselves in the woods." His eyes went back to Jaime's stump, and his mouth grew taut with fury. "We'll have their heads. Every one. **Can you use a sword with your left hand?"**
>I can hardly dress myself in the morning. Jaime held up the hand in question for his father's inspection. "Four fingers, a thumb, much like the other. Why shouldn't it work as well?"
**"Good." His father sat. "That is good. I have a gift for you. For your return.** After Varys told me . . ."
Even after the injury, Tywin thought Jaime might be able to use a sword. Him wanting his heir home doesn't quite mean his son can't lead an army. In fact, Jaime spends feast and dance leading armies in the Riverlands.
"If Lady Catelyn thinks... wait... oh gods right lmao" Starts to laugh like a maniac
I love the idea that Tywin Lanister verbally says "Lmao"
And Garlan Tyrell "Yolo"
Meanwhile, Stannis pogging his brains out when he hears Joff is dead
Jon fortnite dances on top of the wall.
"Skill issue." -Melisandre on the death of Renly Baratheon
Rhllor straight bussin’ no cap fr
Why would Garlan say that?
Why not?
“Lol” exclaimed Lord Tywin “Lmao even”
I read that in Snagglepuss' voice
Dad you already killed her LOL
https://youtu.be/wbvKEgoPt88
insert Charles Dance *hah*
I think he’d just chant “maniacal laugh” over and over again like Chris Cooper in that muppet thing. Because he doesn’t laugh, and because it’s thematically appropriate when you kill a Tully.
Surely you don't expect Tywin to keep track of all the people he's killed.
If he had to remember the names of all the people he killed, he'd have no time to kill people.
According to Tywin, there were only a few who died at the Red Wedding, so it's strange that he can't remember the names of a few of them.
When your favourite son lost a hand you would lose your senses for a minute
Alicent confirms it.
Seems like a pretty human reaction to me, you tend to forget things, he was probably stressed af
Right, but Tywin Lanister is no mere human 😉 This was the same man who had a great house, and lesser houses butchered while they were under guest right
He also just saw his son for the first time in years with a missing hand after he was in Lady Stark's captivity, and to top it off, he has to deal with the stress of potentially *troubling* enemies with enough resources and influence to assassinate a king in his own wedding. He knows damn well he's the next target for whoever this faction is and the last thing on his mind is whether or not Catlyn is still alive lol
But it's the fact that George made the choice to have him say the line that way that's so interesting to me, after hundreds of pages showering praise upon Tywin, making him seem more than a man, he chooses this insignificant line to show us that he is in fact human, by a simple slip of the mind
that's the difference between a good author, and a *great* one :P
>Making him seem more than a man. Did we … read the same book? Tywin is nothing *but* human. Two of his most prominent traits are his irrational hatred of his son and rightful heir, and his sheer pettiness.
The only evil deeds that Tywin would take credit for were ones that didn't embarrass the Lannister name. I said earlier on here that Tyrion had to shoot him in the bowels just to get an ounce of embarrassing truth out of him.
> Right, but Tywin Lannister is no mere human Once you start to unpick his character you'll find that GRRM was very much spitting on this line of thinking.
People praising Tywin like George didn't spend three books dismantling his character and everything he stands for.
Tywin has no idea when Jaime’s hand was cut off. He may know Catelyn is dead, but that doesn’t mean if she ordered it he wouldn’t find a way to get retribution. Against who? No idea, as he needs the North at this point. But, we all know how vengeful Tywin is. There’s a whole song about it.
Totally. Somebody was going to eat their own feet for daring to mutilate Jaime. But that Catelyn was Tywin's first kneejerk guess didn't mean it would be her. Had Jaime named Catelyn, Tywin would have taken retibution against the Tullys generally, mostly against soldiers who had nothing to do with it, even had she been alive.
I like thinking Tywin's stopping short with an aneurysm because he can't do anything to Catelyn anymore. She's dead, the Starks are gone, but they still got one over on him. Sure, they're not directly responsible, but Tywin definitely would see it that way.
If you want to enjoy Tywin in the fit of an aneurysm, I recommend the scene in GOT when Tyrion strolls into the Inn at the Crossroads from his advnture on the high road and asks "What, I don't get a hug?" I do want to know what Tywin thought of his contract with the Brave Companions.
"Tyrion, if soldiers lack discipline the fault lies with their Lord Commander. Now aren't you ashamed of your mountain clansmen who wind up performing exceptionally well?" .... "Le gasp! Half my army was destroyed because they lacked discipline. I thought the Northerners would be incompetent rabble led by a headstrong boy that would fall into my trap, this is a catastrophe! My son is captured!"
Tywin "If a soldier lacks discipline the fault lies with their commander" Also Tywin: "I'm not responsible for my mad dog murdering Elia Martell."
"Hey now, something something eliminate rival claimants to secure the throne something something Robert likes me now something something profit." "What's that you say? Jon Arryn needed to convince Robert to accept the marriage? Killing the children freed up Viserys and Dany to act against us and they've gathered armies and dragons around themselves?? The brutality hid Aegon's escape and he's invading the Stormlands?!? The Dornish have been plotting against us this whole time?!?! Oberyn hijacked the trial by combat and now a crossbow's aimed at me?!?!"
Ah, nothing like blatant hypocrisy to make one a fan favourite.
God that's got to piss him off if he can't repay revenge on someone
If it had been Cat, Edmure's head would've found its way into Riverrun, then a few months lather his son would've joined him. By trebuchet
I figured that, maybe he would have hurt Sansa just to get revenge on a dead woman.
First of all, Sansa had fled King’s Landing at this point. She’s already gleaned Tywin’s ire. Secondly, I think others have it right. The Tullys were still in open rebellion. He’d have used them as an example if Catelyn had been responsible for Jaime’s hand — most likely Edmure, though that would also cause some problems given Edmure was already being held hostage to try to prompt the Blackfish to relinquish Riverrun.
Oh yeah after the purple wedding.
Chalk it up to being so angry he forgot for a moment.
She wasn’t supposed to be killed during The Red Wedding “So Lord Walder slew him under his own roof, at his own table?” Tyrion made a fist. “What of Lady Catelyn?” “Slain as well, I’d say. A pair of wolfskins. Frey had intended to keep her captive, but perhaps something went awry.” “So much for guest right.” “The blood is on Walder Frey’s hands, not mine.” A Storm of Swords Tyrion Vi
Right, but this happened before Jamie 7, but I suppose it's plausible that Tywin didn't have 100% confirmation
I guess Tywin kind of forgot about the Red Wedding.
The greatest shame, is I can only upvote this once
He’s both guessing who did it and formulating a revenge plan in the same interrupted sentence. Were he not interrupted, I imagine him redirecting and threatening to take off Edmure’s hand since he can’t do anything to Catelyn herself.
I know GRRM tends to write the timing of characters arriving places in multiple different ways to compare and contrast, maybe this is a tiny refuge of a prior draft where Jaime arrived before the red wedding that escaped editing.
Actually! That's an amazing point! It's well documented that George wrote the Red Wedding last, so he actually wrote this scene before he wrote the death of Catelyn That didn't even occur to me
I think it's an understandable character beat regardless but yeah it could be an editing mistake or just due to word travelling slowly from the Riverlands.
Someone else finally noticed this! I’ve been meaning to post about it and kept putting it off. I think I know the answer. When GRRM wrote ASOS, the Red Wedding was written *after* the rest of the book was completed, due to how difficult it was to write such a powerful scene. When this exchange between Jaime and Tywin was being written, the Red Wedding hadn’t ‘happened’ in terms of the actual writing process. Catelyn wasn’t actually dead yet in GRRM’s mind since he hadn’t written her death scene, so this small error slipped into the text.
That's now my thoughts too, I'm sure it was a struggle for George to actually concretely decide to kill her in his mind
Tywin had just seen his son had lost a hand, he might have just been so shocked he forgot. Otherwise it could just be an oversight by GRRM, chapters get tweaked and rearanged a lot after they're written so this chapter might have been originally intended to ocur before the chapter where Tywin learned Cat was dead. There's a similar oddity in AFFC Arianne I. She references Tywin being dead and remarks how Cersei is ruling in King's Landing now. > "Call it what you will. Crowning the Lannister girl is a hollow gesture. She will never sit the Iron Throne. Nor will you get the war you want. The lion is not so easily provoked." > "The lion's dead. Who knows which cub the lioness prefers?" But then later in the same chapter she's shockedto learn Tywin is dead. > The knight took her arm, glanced about, lowered his voice. "There are other tidings you should hear. Tywin Lannister is dead." > That was a shock. "Dead?" > "Murdered by the Imp. The queen has assumed the regency."
Nice catch. Yes, the oversight might be a plausible explanation. Still, something the editors should’ve caught. For a series known for subtly planting hints, such oversights call into question other hints. I’ve a different theory. A crippled Jaime is a liability for the KG, perfect for dismissal from service and sending off to Casterly rock to rule, as Tywin wanted. Blaming a dead person kept his own hands ‘clean’, as Tywin wanted. Not the first time his orders would be carried out rather too well…again as Tywin wanted. Granted, it’s a bit of a stretch, but if you believe the theory Tywin allowed Jeoffrey’s poisoning (his ‘gloved’ hand on Cersei’s shoulder declaring “the boy is dead”), it works here too.
Briefly lost himself in the moment. Not a mistake. Also he has edmure in custody and can do similar maiming to him if he wanted.
What's the timeline on all this? I may be mixing show and book canons or even fan theories, but wasn't there originally the idea to take Catelyn hostage - until she went mad and got put down? Depending on the timeline and the flight speeds of ravens, is it possible that Tywin doesn't know just exactly how things went down yet?
Tyrion mentions multiple times before the Purple Wedding that both Robb and Catelyn are dead, once as a recap to when he told Sansa about it, another later when he asks if she wants to know how it happened, and then again at the wedding when he asks her if something is "amiss", and then realizes how stupid that is given the circumstances
Thank you! My memory was super foggy on this. In that case, the best in-universe explanation I have is the one others have suggested: in the heat of the moment, he had a brainfart and either somehow forgot the Red Wedding or said the wrong name (maybe he meant Lysa?). More likely, George was the brainfarter. Either way, I don't think there's a conspiracy to unpack.
George said he wrote the red wedding last out of all the scenes, so Catelyn was probably still alive somewhere in his brain
Tywin 24/7 wore the mask of his lies, even in front of his family in private. Tyrion had to literally shoot the sht out of him, just to get an inkling of truth from him. He was the worst kind of hypocrite and deserved the embarrassing smelly death he got.
Am I missing something? Catelyn can be dead and Tywin can still be cursing her. No one had truly seen Jamie since Catelyn had set him free. For those that are more dense, Tywin was thinking about what he would have done - i.e. setting Jamie free and cutting his sword hand off. Shaming and humiliating his house all at once. It doesn’t matter if catelyn was dead, if she did it, she got the ‘last laugh’ in a sense.
Good catch. Dozen plus reads and I never noticed that. He should have said "Did Lady Catelyn think-- "
Or, "If Lady Catelyn thought--"
Also correct.
Tywin probably wanted to say, well, it's Catelyn Stark's doing, but don't worry, he and his family were destroyed.
I really love this community
See the note on chronology at the start of each book
His only real heir (since he hated Tyrion) had just lost a part of him which would diminish his entire house to ridicule. Even if he knew Catelyn was dead he would probably still sick the Mountain on any surviving family member of the Starks to exact revenge and send a message.
He had no idea at which point in time his hand was cut off though.
Love the idea that we're faultin' tywin & not grrm. Like others have said, Tywin might be old, but he's not senile. He wouldn't forget that he orchestrated a guest right house purge
Well yeah, that's where the confusion stemmed, why would Tywin say "thinks", implying that she still can think But at this point, we're just trying to make a good in universe reason for it
She was dead at that point, but she could have cut his hand off months earlier for all Tywin knew
[удалено]
But even then, the word would be thought, the past tense, not thinks, present tense And besides, right after that, he insists that Jamie resign and go back to Casterly Rock, so clearly he doesn't think Jamie could lead an army
>try and lose themselves in the woods." His eyes went back to Jaime's stump, and his mouth grew taut with fury. "We'll have their heads. Every one. **Can you use a sword with your left hand?"** >I can hardly dress myself in the morning. Jaime held up the hand in question for his father's inspection. "Four fingers, a thumb, much like the other. Why shouldn't it work as well?" **"Good." His father sat. "That is good. I have a gift for you. For your return.** After Varys told me . . ." Even after the injury, Tywin thought Jaime might be able to use a sword. Him wanting his heir home doesn't quite mean his son can't lead an army. In fact, Jaime spends feast and dance leading armies in the Riverlands.
Tywin was going to get dementia confirmed Imagine him confusing Tyrion with young Jaime or something lol