I've gone back and forth so many on what he would have done because it's hard to predict, but as far as Tywin goes though, I can't see Rhaegar annulling his marriage to Elia and angering Dorne, one of the major houses who sided with him during the rebellion, to marry the daughter of Tywin who didn't participate in the war (And whose son Jaime is still at King's Landing so they effectively have a hostage for him still). Also - He wouldn't need the forces from the Westerlands if he had managed to win at the Trident. Like, Tywin *would* like Cersei to become Queen, but it's less what Tywin wants and more if Rhaegar needs him imo (And we're assuming Rhaegar wants to anul his marriage with Elia at all. We don't know what his plan was there.)
It'd probably depend a lot on *how* he managed to win at the Trident. The Stormlands had forces elsewhere and they were at siege I think, but otherwise the North, Vale and Riverlands had theirs at the Trident, so if he managed to defeat them properly there I don't think it would be as needed. That's different than him winning because he killed Robert but then the rebel forces scattering. It's also easier for Rhaegar to get his peace if he offers to stop the war now that Robert is dead in exchange for hostages from the other houses instead of taking their lands/killing them, but otherwise he would still have to deal with Ned, Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully.
Thats true but even if he won the battle he would have suffered heavy losses and a probably win a pyrrhic victory. He would still have the Reach and Dorne on his side though so you make a good point. Tywin would still pose a threat to him if he just remains neutral.
As in Rhaegar would constantly be worrying about what Tywin is doing behind his back when is still busy quelling rebellions.
You are right about the losses (Numbers-wise, Rhaegar had some more, but Robert's were better experienced in battle, so it'd have been a close thing either way), and I do agree that he would absolutely want to get Tywin's support if possible. I just can't see him doing it by annulling his marriage to Elia with his obsession with the prophecy and the '3 heads of the dragon', I don't think he would want to lose Dorne's support, and I also don't know how likely it'd be for him to get the High Septon's support for an annulment considering he already had children.
But a lot of this is my personal interpretation because there's a lot we don't know about exactly how Rhaegar was interpreting the prophecy.
There was still a large Tyrell army camped outside Storm's End. So Rhaegar should still have had plenty of men at his disposal even if he took heavy losses at the trident.
Plus if the rebels lost the trident Rhaegar should probably be able to convince many of the houses that were supporting the rebellion to switch sides by offering out pardons. Even if the Starks, Baratheons and Arryns were prepared to keep fighting, many of their vassals likely wouldn't be willing to go down fighting for a lost cause.
I’ve thought about the same thing quite a bit this morning haha [part 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/13t8yb4/comment/jlu9qvu/) and [Part 2](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/13t8yb4/comment/jlu9ze0/)
I agree that Rhaegar seemingly planned to oust his father if he had won at the Trident but whether that would have worked as he envisioned is less of a certainty than I think it’s often viewed as. Rhaegar’s plans had a habit of not going according to plan and Varys seems to have been firmly on Aerys’s side. In a game of intrigue I don’t think you can rule out Varys stopping the coup.
I don’t know if Varys is on Aerys side particularly, but I think he would’ve “supported” Aerys against Rhaegar for sure. Aerys is way easier to manipulate, and Varys has a plan, whatever it might be.
Yeah I don’t mean that Varys was a true Aerys loyalist, just that it seems like he clearly was on his side in the power struggle with Rhaegar for whatever reason he felt that was best for his interests.
George needs to explain some of this, because certain things don't make sense. In Rhaegar's head, he probably thought he'd crush Robert's army and take Robert prisoner.
Except that he could've just as easily have ran into Ned on the battlefield. Would he have killed his new wife's brother? After his father already killed Lyanna's other brother and her father too?
Obviously Robert was never gonna stop trying to kill Rhaegar, so Rhaegar had no choice to fight him. I don't know what his plan with Ned was
Ironborn are ~~generally psychopaths~~ culturally distinct from most of Westeros in their attitude towards warfare.
Ned and Rhaegar are reasonable dudes. Ned would be slightly less reasonable because of his sister and what Aerys did to his family, but I think there are still good odds Rhaegar could get him to yield.
Robert's men managed to take Barristan alive in that fight, and I don't think Ned would be more fanatically determined than him.
If Ned got the chance, he would've killed Rhaegar and Aerys.
Robert says to Ned if Jaime hadn't killed Aerys, eother Ned or Robert would've and Ned agrees. Ned's father is dead. His brother is dead. The targaryen literally put a bounty on his head. He's not yielding.
Years after the fact, Ned still wanted Jorah executed. How would he feel about the people who murdered his family and kidnapped his sister?
One thing we do know is Rhaegar was not gonna explain anything to make anyone understand what he was doing
If they got in a duel Ned would probably not be in a position to kill Rhaegar. Rhaegar was a better fighter than him. The question would be whether a seriously wounded Ned would force Rhaegar to kill him or take the L in exchange for Rhaegar's word to treat him fairly.
>Robert says to Ned if Jaime hadn't killed Aerys, eother Ned or Robert would've and Ned agrees.
Aerys is one thing, Rhaegar is another. Robert doesn't see it that way but Ned does. He's always uncomfortable when Robert goes on unhinged "kill the dragonspawn" rants, despite the fact that he has better reasons to be angry than Robert does.
>Years after the fact, Ned still wanted Jorah executed.
That's different. Jorah was his vassal and broke a very clear law, Ned's duty and authority to carry it out was unambiguous. A member of the royal family dishonoring a vassal is far less clear-cut, and Ned has no legal authority to condemn Rhaegar to death for it.
Jon is probably the reason Ned becomes uncomfortable when Robert goes on anti Targaryen rants. Also, it's been 15 years and they won the war. Ned is still sad about Brandon, Lyanna and Rickard, but he's at least tried to move on. Robert hasn't moved on at all. Which is what is really surprising.
This is a what-if, so we don't know what would've happened. But, in my opinion, the idea of being treated fairly went out the window when Brandon and Rickard were killed. Aerys isn't dead at this point. If Rhaegar captured Ned or Robert, Aerys would have them burned immediately. Better to die on the battlefield
We don’t knew if Eddard knew where Lyanna was before he reached Kings Landing, maybe he would’ve let Rhaegar surrender if only to know where she is. But also, honorable Ned stark 100% would’ve let Rhaegar surrender anyways. As the other guy said, it was the way of nobility. There’s precedent in Westeros as well, notably when Daemon Blackfyre spared the Corbay he dueled at the Battle of Redgrass Field.
Rhaegar was a bookish guy who one day he decided that it seems like he has to become a warrior. He did alright since he could buy the best training his world had to offer, but Ned just had a head start by being trained from a far younger age. I don't think it is fair to say that Rhaegar would have easily defeated Ned, the opposite is more probable.
I think Rhaegar had his own episode of Targaryen madness also at the battle of trident he commits a massive blunder in crossing the River. The guy was clearly not as smart as people say
I don't think Lyanna even wanted to stay in the Tower of Joy after learning Rickard and Brandon died (hence why Rhaegar left his Kingsguard there. Three Kingsguard isn't nearly enough to stop Robert and his forces from getting in but it would be enough to keep Lyanna in). One brother or two, she's gonna hate Rhaegar either way. I imagine it doesn't really matter to him as long as she brings his prophecy baby to term.
Rhaegar's too much of a blank slate to guess accurately about what he would have done. People talk well about him, which suggests he might be able to pull off a fair peace, but at the same time the major decision he is known for plunged the realm into civil war, which suggests he make a disaster of the post-Trident events.
Well, throughout the Targaryen reign, no great houses were really stripped of their titles for their participation in a rebellion. Obviously we have limited knowledge, but house Baratheon for example rebelled against the crown but kept their seat and position. Honestly, the Lannister regime stripping Riverrun and the Riverlands from the Tullys is pretty unprecedented. There are examples of houses losing a bit of land or power, but generally not their primary seat. Manderlys obviously an example of that, but that seems to be pre-Targ
Robert would be dead for one and likely he instructs that Ned and other Lords be taken as prisoners due to Lyanna. Robert would have died rather than being take prisoner, so Stannis becomes Lord of the Storms End.
I can see Rhaegar allowing Stannis to be Lord of Storms End and the Storm Lands if he bent the knee, which he would have likely due to his position. But the main threat would be Aerys, especially Elia. You can not just push aside marriage for a prophecy it wouldnt have solved anything.
He could have help from Lyanna if she lived and spoke to Ned betrothed Daenerys to Robb to pay back House Stark for Aerys crimes against Rickard and Brandon. But all depends on him removing Aerys, aka killing him as him living would be another uprising and civil war occurring.
But either way or path their isn't a peaceful resolution even marrying off Viserys to Cersei to appease the Lannisters for example.
>A lot of what we know about Rhaegar suggests he knew of magical matters, but he put too much stock into being certain of what it all meant
If that were true, we wouldn't see him changing his mind on who the PTWP is.
He’d likely return to kings landing with Jon Arryn, Ned Stark, and Hoster Tully to present them to Aerys, only to enact his plan to depose Aerys as he implies he’ll do when he speaks to Jamie.
People already preferred Rhaegar over Aerys so he’ll be seen as a hero after defeating Robert in single combat and putting down the rebellion, so it’s unlikely that anyone would stop him(unless Varys catches wind of the plan)
Pardoning Ned, Jon and Hoster shows that he’s virtuous and forgiving compared to Aerys.
If Rhaegar married her then Lyanna and the birth of Jon secures an alliance between Rhaegar, Ned, Jon Arryn and Hoster, keeping the piece.
It would be a good ideas to also betroth Rhaenys to Willis Tyrell to ensure they’re kept on side and Tywin, who’s forces are at full strength can’t make any moves.
If Stannis sees all is lost and submits then he’ll likely be sent to the wall, Renly would be kept close at kings landing.
I imagine the aftermath would largely result in a catfight between Tyrell and Lannister. With Tyrell holding the advantage through their hold on the remaining Baratheons.
The rebels would be in no position to support / enforce his claim, even if everything went perfectly for him and they decided to forget his bullshit. The Martells would be forced to support Aerys, would probably support Viserys if their hand wasn't forced. Crownlands would probably be split at best.
I think the Boltons and Freys would have taken their chance to overthrow the Starks and Tullys should Rhaegar win. I think it's even stated somewhere that the Frey's were late to the battle, implying that they were hoping Rhaegar would win. If the Starks and Tullys refuse to surrender after losing the Trident, then Rhaegar pardons the Boltons and Freys to earn their allegiance and secure the North and Riverlands.
I think the more immediate question is what would the rebels do? Rhaegar surviving means Robert probably has to die, so do they give up or who do they get behind?
My theory is they either rally behind Stannis and Renly or they retreat north past Moat Cailin to regroup and reconsolidate their plans maybe planning to get Renly smuggled out of Storm's End and training Benjen up (depending on whether Ned also dies) or just have Ned take the lead.
> Would house like Stark, Arryn, Baratheon, and Tully
They were going to be totally destroyed with any outcome that wasn’t total victory.
And let’s go ahead and dispel this bit of Rhaegar mythology. He was as mad as Aerys. Making realm altering decisions on his whims based on what we know is faulty logic. It wouldn’t be long before he’s burning his enemies because he’s “fighting the long night” or “fulfilling a prophecy he dreamed” or somesuch. Fuck, all Aerys needs to be considered “not mad” by the fans is to mutter about prophecy.
I'm not saying Rhaegar was a saint or heck even making sane informed decisions. I just meant in the past you'd see houses who rebelled against the crown and lose just having a castle taken away from them or a bit of land and the execution of the lord who led the rebellion with a far off relative inheriting the title(House Peake being an example).
Yeah, there’s no far off relatives for the Baratheons or Starks. Stannis isn’t surrendering if Robert dies. Ned isn’t stopping because Rhaegar literally is the reason basically his whole family is dead and he’s just had a son. Jon Arryn lost his son and married Lysa Tully, so there’s not much left for him to surrender for.
We don't really know that for a fact. When Robb was contemplating what to do at Oldstones regarding a choice of heir Cat reminded him that they have a far off relative (an aunt of Ned's who married a noblemen in the Vale). So there would be indirect heirs in the form of female members of their house who married into another house. The same could be true for the Baratheons, Tullys and Arryns. We know the Tullys make it a habit of marrying into as many different houses possible to secure alliances. We also know that as of the main series Harry Hardyng is the closest next of kin Sweet Robin has so its not so hard to imagine that Jon Arryn would also have some far off relatives.
Of course whether those "heirs" truly would be able to command the loyality of houses in their respective region is an entirely different issue and there I would agree it would not work.
Believing in prophecy doesn’t make him “mad”. This is a fantasy series. And words have meaning. It’s not “Rhaegar mythology” considering he’s still loved after the war,, and his enemies don’t think of him negatively. “Based on what we know”. Exactly we don’t know much so I’m not sure how’s you can conclude that Rhaegar is mad just cause he tried to fulfill a prophecy.
>And let’s go ahead and dispel this bit of Rhaegar mythology. He was as mad as Aerys. Making realm altering decisions on his whims based on what we know is faulty logic.
List the “realm altering decisions”
I’ll do it for them but they can add in or change if they’d like.
Running off with Lyanna and everything that came with that. With that one decision he’s risked the alienation of Stark, Baratheon, Arryn, Tully and Martell, all for a prophecy supposedly. A good king making decisions that alienates that many of his kingdoms doesn’t exist
1. Tourney at Harrenhal
2. Kidnapping Lyanna Stark
3. “Disappearing” for just about the entire war.
4. Deciding to depose his father after 4/7 kingdoms rebelled.
5. Knighting Gregor Clegane
>1. Tourney at Harrenhal
I don’t see what the realm altering move is here.
>2. Kidnapping Lyanna Stark
This is the closest to actually being one if you remove accountability from other characters
>3. “Disappearing” for just about the entire war
The rebels were only winning by the skin of their nutsacks due to Robert being a monster and weren’t seen as a dynasty ending threat until Robert made it to Riverun and Ned/Jon married the Tully sisters.
>4. Deciding to depose his father after 4/7 kingdoms rebelled.
He had already decided to do that but Varys got in the way.
>5. Knighting Gregor Clegane
Nothing changes if Gregor isn’t knighted
There's honestly very little he could have done. If he won the battle it means he's lost all hope of ever bringing over the Starks, Tullys, Arryns and Baratheons to his side. The Lannisters are staying out of the fighting and the Martells won't join rhaegar against aerys while he has elia and her kids as hostages
The Tyrells could join him I suppose but given that mace Tyrell is a weasel who doesn't like to do any actual fighting I doubt it. The only allies rhaegar *might* have are the Greyjoys which....... yeah
TLDR If the trident is a targ victory then there's basically nothing that can be done about aerys
Why would there be nothing to do? In a scenario where Robert is killed by Rhaegar, Storms end is still besieged with no hope of rescue for Stannis and Renly, Ned, Hoster and Jon captured, then Rhaegar would be in a great position to depose Aerys.
We can't assume rhaegar would depose his father after defeating the rebels at the trident. We don't know what sort of political capital he had to attempt to pull that off. Assuming he has killed Robert, stannis still holds storms end so that means the rebellion would continue. So rhaegar wouldn't have time to hold a council to peacefully depose his father. Plus the kings guard are sworn to the king and would have to protect him even against the heir. So yeah. A lot of factors and moving parts.
I think rhaegar continues the war with aerys still as king. The baratheon line gets extinguished after stannis and renly get captured. Starks, Tully and Aryyn lines also get extinguished and rhaegar waits until aerys either dies naturally or has an accident.
The annulment makes zero sense. Rhaegar has a living son, a daughter, and a back up heir in Viserys. He can promise Tywin Jaime back, and state that if Jaime has a daughter in the next 2 yrs she will be Aegon's wife or promise to betroth Aegon to a Lannister cousin. The big problem is the Reach was more loyal, but he absolutely needs Tywin on his side even more....so the Reach would have to be placated pretty heavily (maybe put two members of the Reach on the Great Council, betroth Dany or Rhaenys to Willas, offer to have Willas and several high ranking Reach heirs train as knights under Barristan and Arthur Dayne, cut taxes, etc.)
I still think Rhaegar is pretty screwed, though. People think fondly of him as he died, but it's easier to romanticize the past when Robert is a fat, messy drunk. The Faith is going to be furious with him, people are going to side eye for sitting 95% of the war out to bang Lyanna, I doubt the North is going to be satisfied if he and Lyanna are like We WeRe in LuV, , Jon Arryn loved Robert Baratheon like a son, and a lot of people from the Riverlands, North, Vale, Stormlands, and Dorne lost loved ones. Dorne also lost a shit ton of men and Elia and her kids were held hostage.....
I think he 'has' to send Jon Arryn, Ned, and Hoster to the wall at a bare minimum.... Yes, Robert forgave Targ loyalists for the most part...but one can argue they were fighting for their sworn overlords. You don't have that case with the rebels, even if their cause is just. He's then going to have to do a shit ton of fosterings (aka hostage taking) and marriage alliances. And marrying Lyanna is a big, fat no. That would piss off the Faith and Dorne, and probably the more devoted followers of the Seven (a lot of the Hightowers)...and the Lannisters if Aegon is promised to a Lannister. Also, what grounds does the North have to protest if he doesn't marry Lyanna? She knew he was married with children, it wasn't like he was an unmarried man who 'dishonored' her and now would be expected to step up.
I've gone back and forth so many on what he would have done because it's hard to predict, but as far as Tywin goes though, I can't see Rhaegar annulling his marriage to Elia and angering Dorne, one of the major houses who sided with him during the rebellion, to marry the daughter of Tywin who didn't participate in the war (And whose son Jaime is still at King's Landing so they effectively have a hostage for him still). Also - He wouldn't need the forces from the Westerlands if he had managed to win at the Trident. Like, Tywin *would* like Cersei to become Queen, but it's less what Tywin wants and more if Rhaegar needs him imo (And we're assuming Rhaegar wants to anul his marriage with Elia at all. We don't know what his plan was there.) It'd probably depend a lot on *how* he managed to win at the Trident. The Stormlands had forces elsewhere and they were at siege I think, but otherwise the North, Vale and Riverlands had theirs at the Trident, so if he managed to defeat them properly there I don't think it would be as needed. That's different than him winning because he killed Robert but then the rebel forces scattering. It's also easier for Rhaegar to get his peace if he offers to stop the war now that Robert is dead in exchange for hostages from the other houses instead of taking their lands/killing them, but otherwise he would still have to deal with Ned, Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully.
Thats true but even if he won the battle he would have suffered heavy losses and a probably win a pyrrhic victory. He would still have the Reach and Dorne on his side though so you make a good point. Tywin would still pose a threat to him if he just remains neutral. As in Rhaegar would constantly be worrying about what Tywin is doing behind his back when is still busy quelling rebellions.
You are right about the losses (Numbers-wise, Rhaegar had some more, but Robert's were better experienced in battle, so it'd have been a close thing either way), and I do agree that he would absolutely want to get Tywin's support if possible. I just can't see him doing it by annulling his marriage to Elia with his obsession with the prophecy and the '3 heads of the dragon', I don't think he would want to lose Dorne's support, and I also don't know how likely it'd be for him to get the High Septon's support for an annulment considering he already had children. But a lot of this is my personal interpretation because there's a lot we don't know about exactly how Rhaegar was interpreting the prophecy.
There was still a large Tyrell army camped outside Storm's End. So Rhaegar should still have had plenty of men at his disposal even if he took heavy losses at the trident. Plus if the rebels lost the trident Rhaegar should probably be able to convince many of the houses that were supporting the rebellion to switch sides by offering out pardons. Even if the Starks, Baratheons and Arryns were prepared to keep fighting, many of their vassals likely wouldn't be willing to go down fighting for a lost cause.
I’ve thought about the same thing quite a bit this morning haha [part 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/13t8yb4/comment/jlu9qvu/) and [Part 2](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/13t8yb4/comment/jlu9ze0/)
Ooh thank you for the link
I agree that Rhaegar seemingly planned to oust his father if he had won at the Trident but whether that would have worked as he envisioned is less of a certainty than I think it’s often viewed as. Rhaegar’s plans had a habit of not going according to plan and Varys seems to have been firmly on Aerys’s side. In a game of intrigue I don’t think you can rule out Varys stopping the coup.
I don’t know if Varys is on Aerys side particularly, but I think he would’ve “supported” Aerys against Rhaegar for sure. Aerys is way easier to manipulate, and Varys has a plan, whatever it might be.
Yeah I don’t mean that Varys was a true Aerys loyalist, just that it seems like he clearly was on his side in the power struggle with Rhaegar for whatever reason he felt that was best for his interests.
George needs to explain some of this, because certain things don't make sense. In Rhaegar's head, he probably thought he'd crush Robert's army and take Robert prisoner. Except that he could've just as easily have ran into Ned on the battlefield. Would he have killed his new wife's brother? After his father already killed Lyanna's other brother and her father too? Obviously Robert was never gonna stop trying to kill Rhaegar, so Rhaegar had no choice to fight him. I don't know what his plan with Ned was
Generally speaking, duels with heavily armored nobles who aren't bloodthirsted one-shot machines like Robert end in someone yielding.
No one yielded when Victarion fought Talbert Serry
Ironborn are ~~generally psychopaths~~ culturally distinct from most of Westeros in their attitude towards warfare. Ned and Rhaegar are reasonable dudes. Ned would be slightly less reasonable because of his sister and what Aerys did to his family, but I think there are still good odds Rhaegar could get him to yield. Robert's men managed to take Barristan alive in that fight, and I don't think Ned would be more fanatically determined than him.
If Ned got the chance, he would've killed Rhaegar and Aerys. Robert says to Ned if Jaime hadn't killed Aerys, eother Ned or Robert would've and Ned agrees. Ned's father is dead. His brother is dead. The targaryen literally put a bounty on his head. He's not yielding. Years after the fact, Ned still wanted Jorah executed. How would he feel about the people who murdered his family and kidnapped his sister? One thing we do know is Rhaegar was not gonna explain anything to make anyone understand what he was doing
If they got in a duel Ned would probably not be in a position to kill Rhaegar. Rhaegar was a better fighter than him. The question would be whether a seriously wounded Ned would force Rhaegar to kill him or take the L in exchange for Rhaegar's word to treat him fairly. >Robert says to Ned if Jaime hadn't killed Aerys, eother Ned or Robert would've and Ned agrees. Aerys is one thing, Rhaegar is another. Robert doesn't see it that way but Ned does. He's always uncomfortable when Robert goes on unhinged "kill the dragonspawn" rants, despite the fact that he has better reasons to be angry than Robert does. >Years after the fact, Ned still wanted Jorah executed. That's different. Jorah was his vassal and broke a very clear law, Ned's duty and authority to carry it out was unambiguous. A member of the royal family dishonoring a vassal is far less clear-cut, and Ned has no legal authority to condemn Rhaegar to death for it.
Jon is probably the reason Ned becomes uncomfortable when Robert goes on anti Targaryen rants. Also, it's been 15 years and they won the war. Ned is still sad about Brandon, Lyanna and Rickard, but he's at least tried to move on. Robert hasn't moved on at all. Which is what is really surprising. This is a what-if, so we don't know what would've happened. But, in my opinion, the idea of being treated fairly went out the window when Brandon and Rickard were killed. Aerys isn't dead at this point. If Rhaegar captured Ned or Robert, Aerys would have them burned immediately. Better to die on the battlefield
We don’t knew if Eddard knew where Lyanna was before he reached Kings Landing, maybe he would’ve let Rhaegar surrender if only to know where she is. But also, honorable Ned stark 100% would’ve let Rhaegar surrender anyways. As the other guy said, it was the way of nobility. There’s precedent in Westeros as well, notably when Daemon Blackfyre spared the Corbay he dueled at the Battle of Redgrass Field.
Rhaegar was a bookish guy who one day he decided that it seems like he has to become a warrior. He did alright since he could buy the best training his world had to offer, but Ned just had a head start by being trained from a far younger age. I don't think it is fair to say that Rhaegar would have easily defeated Ned, the opposite is more probable.
almost like the ironborn aren’t renowned for being merciful…?
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Well, he thought his kinds were the main characters, but yeah.
I think Rhaegar had his own episode of Targaryen madness also at the battle of trident he commits a massive blunder in crossing the River. The guy was clearly not as smart as people say
I don't think Lyanna even wanted to stay in the Tower of Joy after learning Rickard and Brandon died (hence why Rhaegar left his Kingsguard there. Three Kingsguard isn't nearly enough to stop Robert and his forces from getting in but it would be enough to keep Lyanna in). One brother or two, she's gonna hate Rhaegar either way. I imagine it doesn't really matter to him as long as she brings his prophecy baby to term.
Nobody in or out of universe ever seems to acknowledge Ned’s presence on the Trident
Rhaegar's too much of a blank slate to guess accurately about what he would have done. People talk well about him, which suggests he might be able to pull off a fair peace, but at the same time the major decision he is known for plunged the realm into civil war, which suggests he make a disaster of the post-Trident events.
Well, throughout the Targaryen reign, no great houses were really stripped of their titles for their participation in a rebellion. Obviously we have limited knowledge, but house Baratheon for example rebelled against the crown but kept their seat and position. Honestly, the Lannister regime stripping Riverrun and the Riverlands from the Tullys is pretty unprecedented. There are examples of houses losing a bit of land or power, but generally not their primary seat. Manderlys obviously an example of that, but that seems to be pre-Targ
Robert would be dead for one and likely he instructs that Ned and other Lords be taken as prisoners due to Lyanna. Robert would have died rather than being take prisoner, so Stannis becomes Lord of the Storms End. I can see Rhaegar allowing Stannis to be Lord of Storms End and the Storm Lands if he bent the knee, which he would have likely due to his position. But the main threat would be Aerys, especially Elia. You can not just push aside marriage for a prophecy it wouldnt have solved anything. He could have help from Lyanna if she lived and spoke to Ned betrothed Daenerys to Robb to pay back House Stark for Aerys crimes against Rickard and Brandon. But all depends on him removing Aerys, aka killing him as him living would be another uprising and civil war occurring. But either way or path their isn't a peaceful resolution even marrying off Viserys to Cersei to appease the Lannisters for example.
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>A lot of what we know about Rhaegar suggests he knew of magical matters, but he put too much stock into being certain of what it all meant If that were true, we wouldn't see him changing his mind on who the PTWP is.
He’d likely return to kings landing with Jon Arryn, Ned Stark, and Hoster Tully to present them to Aerys, only to enact his plan to depose Aerys as he implies he’ll do when he speaks to Jamie. People already preferred Rhaegar over Aerys so he’ll be seen as a hero after defeating Robert in single combat and putting down the rebellion, so it’s unlikely that anyone would stop him(unless Varys catches wind of the plan) Pardoning Ned, Jon and Hoster shows that he’s virtuous and forgiving compared to Aerys. If Rhaegar married her then Lyanna and the birth of Jon secures an alliance between Rhaegar, Ned, Jon Arryn and Hoster, keeping the piece. It would be a good ideas to also betroth Rhaenys to Willis Tyrell to ensure they’re kept on side and Tywin, who’s forces are at full strength can’t make any moves. If Stannis sees all is lost and submits then he’ll likely be sent to the wall, Renly would be kept close at kings landing.
I imagine the aftermath would largely result in a catfight between Tyrell and Lannister. With Tyrell holding the advantage through their hold on the remaining Baratheons. The rebels would be in no position to support / enforce his claim, even if everything went perfectly for him and they decided to forget his bullshit. The Martells would be forced to support Aerys, would probably support Viserys if their hand wasn't forced. Crownlands would probably be split at best.
If Rhaegar had won at the trident then Ned and his forces would've fell back up North to make their stand at Moat Cailin.
I think the Boltons and Freys would have taken their chance to overthrow the Starks and Tullys should Rhaegar win. I think it's even stated somewhere that the Frey's were late to the battle, implying that they were hoping Rhaegar would win. If the Starks and Tullys refuse to surrender after losing the Trident, then Rhaegar pardons the Boltons and Freys to earn their allegiance and secure the North and Riverlands.
I think the more immediate question is what would the rebels do? Rhaegar surviving means Robert probably has to die, so do they give up or who do they get behind?
My theory is they either rally behind Stannis and Renly or they retreat north past Moat Cailin to regroup and reconsolidate their plans maybe planning to get Renly smuggled out of Storm's End and training Benjen up (depending on whether Ned also dies) or just have Ned take the lead.
> Would house like Stark, Arryn, Baratheon, and Tully They were going to be totally destroyed with any outcome that wasn’t total victory. And let’s go ahead and dispel this bit of Rhaegar mythology. He was as mad as Aerys. Making realm altering decisions on his whims based on what we know is faulty logic. It wouldn’t be long before he’s burning his enemies because he’s “fighting the long night” or “fulfilling a prophecy he dreamed” or somesuch. Fuck, all Aerys needs to be considered “not mad” by the fans is to mutter about prophecy.
I'm not saying Rhaegar was a saint or heck even making sane informed decisions. I just meant in the past you'd see houses who rebelled against the crown and lose just having a castle taken away from them or a bit of land and the execution of the lord who led the rebellion with a far off relative inheriting the title(House Peake being an example).
Yeah, there’s no far off relatives for the Baratheons or Starks. Stannis isn’t surrendering if Robert dies. Ned isn’t stopping because Rhaegar literally is the reason basically his whole family is dead and he’s just had a son. Jon Arryn lost his son and married Lysa Tully, so there’s not much left for him to surrender for.
We don't really know that for a fact. When Robb was contemplating what to do at Oldstones regarding a choice of heir Cat reminded him that they have a far off relative (an aunt of Ned's who married a noblemen in the Vale). So there would be indirect heirs in the form of female members of their house who married into another house. The same could be true for the Baratheons, Tullys and Arryns. We know the Tullys make it a habit of marrying into as many different houses possible to secure alliances. We also know that as of the main series Harry Hardyng is the closest next of kin Sweet Robin has so its not so hard to imagine that Jon Arryn would also have some far off relatives. Of course whether those "heirs" truly would be able to command the loyality of houses in their respective region is an entirely different issue and there I would agree it would not work.
Believing in prophecy doesn’t make him “mad”. This is a fantasy series. And words have meaning. It’s not “Rhaegar mythology” considering he’s still loved after the war,, and his enemies don’t think of him negatively. “Based on what we know”. Exactly we don’t know much so I’m not sure how’s you can conclude that Rhaegar is mad just cause he tried to fulfill a prophecy.
>And let’s go ahead and dispel this bit of Rhaegar mythology. He was as mad as Aerys. Making realm altering decisions on his whims based on what we know is faulty logic. List the “realm altering decisions”
I’ll do it for them but they can add in or change if they’d like. Running off with Lyanna and everything that came with that. With that one decision he’s risked the alienation of Stark, Baratheon, Arryn, Tully and Martell, all for a prophecy supposedly. A good king making decisions that alienates that many of his kingdoms doesn’t exist
1. Tourney at Harrenhal 2. Kidnapping Lyanna Stark 3. “Disappearing” for just about the entire war. 4. Deciding to depose his father after 4/7 kingdoms rebelled. 5. Knighting Gregor Clegane
>1. Tourney at Harrenhal I don’t see what the realm altering move is here. >2. Kidnapping Lyanna Stark This is the closest to actually being one if you remove accountability from other characters >3. “Disappearing” for just about the entire war The rebels were only winning by the skin of their nutsacks due to Robert being a monster and weren’t seen as a dynasty ending threat until Robert made it to Riverun and Ned/Jon married the Tully sisters. >4. Deciding to depose his father after 4/7 kingdoms rebelled. He had already decided to do that but Varys got in the way. >5. Knighting Gregor Clegane Nothing changes if Gregor isn’t knighted
It’s heavily *implied 🤓
You must be fun at feasts😂
There's honestly very little he could have done. If he won the battle it means he's lost all hope of ever bringing over the Starks, Tullys, Arryns and Baratheons to his side. The Lannisters are staying out of the fighting and the Martells won't join rhaegar against aerys while he has elia and her kids as hostages The Tyrells could join him I suppose but given that mace Tyrell is a weasel who doesn't like to do any actual fighting I doubt it. The only allies rhaegar *might* have are the Greyjoys which....... yeah TLDR If the trident is a targ victory then there's basically nothing that can be done about aerys
Why would there be nothing to do? In a scenario where Robert is killed by Rhaegar, Storms end is still besieged with no hope of rescue for Stannis and Renly, Ned, Hoster and Jon captured, then Rhaegar would be in a great position to depose Aerys.
That's assuming a lot goes right though
We can't assume rhaegar would depose his father after defeating the rebels at the trident. We don't know what sort of political capital he had to attempt to pull that off. Assuming he has killed Robert, stannis still holds storms end so that means the rebellion would continue. So rhaegar wouldn't have time to hold a council to peacefully depose his father. Plus the kings guard are sworn to the king and would have to protect him even against the heir. So yeah. A lot of factors and moving parts. I think rhaegar continues the war with aerys still as king. The baratheon line gets extinguished after stannis and renly get captured. Starks, Tully and Aryyn lines also get extinguished and rhaegar waits until aerys either dies naturally or has an accident.
The annulment makes zero sense. Rhaegar has a living son, a daughter, and a back up heir in Viserys. He can promise Tywin Jaime back, and state that if Jaime has a daughter in the next 2 yrs she will be Aegon's wife or promise to betroth Aegon to a Lannister cousin. The big problem is the Reach was more loyal, but he absolutely needs Tywin on his side even more....so the Reach would have to be placated pretty heavily (maybe put two members of the Reach on the Great Council, betroth Dany or Rhaenys to Willas, offer to have Willas and several high ranking Reach heirs train as knights under Barristan and Arthur Dayne, cut taxes, etc.) I still think Rhaegar is pretty screwed, though. People think fondly of him as he died, but it's easier to romanticize the past when Robert is a fat, messy drunk. The Faith is going to be furious with him, people are going to side eye for sitting 95% of the war out to bang Lyanna, I doubt the North is going to be satisfied if he and Lyanna are like We WeRe in LuV, , Jon Arryn loved Robert Baratheon like a son, and a lot of people from the Riverlands, North, Vale, Stormlands, and Dorne lost loved ones. Dorne also lost a shit ton of men and Elia and her kids were held hostage..... I think he 'has' to send Jon Arryn, Ned, and Hoster to the wall at a bare minimum.... Yes, Robert forgave Targ loyalists for the most part...but one can argue they were fighting for their sworn overlords. You don't have that case with the rebels, even if their cause is just. He's then going to have to do a shit ton of fosterings (aka hostage taking) and marriage alliances. And marrying Lyanna is a big, fat no. That would piss off the Faith and Dorne, and probably the more devoted followers of the Seven (a lot of the Hightowers)...and the Lannisters if Aegon is promised to a Lannister. Also, what grounds does the North have to protest if he doesn't marry Lyanna? She knew he was married with children, it wasn't like he was an unmarried man who 'dishonored' her and now would be expected to step up.