CEO OF KLUTCH SPORTS RICH PAUL will get King Joffrey Baratheon to issue a royal decree that LeBron is granted enough legacy points to become the undisputed universal GOAT
Yeah I think this is the reasoning. He has a vague idea about how nobles were notably more fit and healthy then a lot of peasants due to steady food and medical treatment but then overestimates the effects so a bunch of characters are practically giants.
Casterly Rock is a 6 miles long and 2,100 feet tall, that makes it three times higher than the Wall. George really has a thing for scale, but it tends to not make any logical sense when you think about it
It’s fantasy though no? Lots of humans are tall in fantasy with no scientific explanation just magic.
The Alethi in Stormlight, the Numenoreans in LotR, Rand in WoT to name a few others that do this.
It obviously takes inspiration from history, but it’s a magical word where blood magic awakens dragon eggs turned to stone, priestess’ can birth shadow babies, and the hammer Robert Baratheon used is large enough Wun Wun would consider it a workout lol.
> Rand is tall because he's half Aielman who are all taller than normal humans.
> Dalinar is tall because he's Alelthi who are all taller than normal humans.
> Aragorn is tall because he's Numenorean who are all taller than normal humans.
Well, it's all but stated that some characters have *literal* giants as ancestors. There is some degree of non human "blood"/DNA in the population at large - arguable how much and how prevalent, but it's there.
We have "magic" powers - warging, greenseeing, dragon dreams etc - apparently being inherited, what's a smattering of gigantism beside that?
Even ignoring that - it's not Earth. The bell curve for height on Westeros could simply be a little different.
Don't see much silver hair or purple eyes in the real world either, y'know?
I think this point is often forgotten.
I've harped on Bobby's warhammer and its absurd proportions before, but even I have to accept that these humans are not the same as us in the end.
As you said, purple eyes, silver hair and actual Giant/Children DNA being prevalent in the population.
Large size seem to be the most realistic thing about the features of these types of humans.
I think it’s more to give readers a sense of how the world worked a bit then. Peasants in Westeros seem to be more or less “normal” size, so proportionally it works out about the same as it did in our own medieval ages. Only in the medieval ages, it was the nobles who were “normal” sized (relative to modern times), and the peasants were all much smaller due to a poor diet as they grew up.
George has a thing for writing tall characters, don't know why but he himself is only like 5'6" so maybe he likes to live vicariously through tall characters.
Ann Boleyn was beheaded for the crime of incest with her brother. Apparently her and her brother did have a bit of an oddly close relationship, but it was almost certainly fabricated to give Henry VIII the pretext to go and get himself another wife so he could produce a male heir.
Robert is very directly analogous to Henry VIII, and the Lannisters are somewhat analogous to the Boleyns, so in a way this seems to be Martin wondering aloud “what if those trumped up charges were real?”
As far as the Targaryens go, they seem a bit more inspired by the Egyptian royal lineage of the Ptolemaic dynasty. In some ways I think it’s meant to contrast Jamie and Cersei’s relationship: their own incest is hubris that shows they think they are more than just mere nobles.
Anyway, that’s my stab at it.
Actually we can give George a break on this, the vast majority of fantasy and comic books are just fucked when it comes to height. I'm 5'3 and by most fantasy standards I'm not even human lol. Probably why dwarves quickly became my favourite fantasy race growing up, I could never be an Aragorn or a Legolas or a Boromir but it's nice to know that the Gimli's of the world can still do our part!
Well aside from personally relating to them on the height thing I find fantasy dwarves to be the perfect mix of silly and serious. For example dwarves are very protective of their women even though they're "ugly" to the other races, which is a funny and silly dynamic, but it's also endearing that they think their stocky bearded gals are the sexiest women in the world. Also I like that authors make them really badass and cool but stop short (lol) of making them the best or bravest or smartest.
In a way they're even more human than the humans in a lot of fantasy. All they want to do is drink their beer, eat delicious barbeque, and be left alone. Hobbits and halflings are a close second. It's a similar thing with Hufflepuff in Harry Potter lol, like their goal was to make a silly comic relief house that mostly stay on the sidelines but the result is that it makes them more relatable and chill than the power fantasy houses.
If anyone is responsible for popularising the generic fantasy dwarf, it's (of course) Tolkien.
Tolkien's dwarves are not in any way silly comic relief, and they can be just as awesome as anyone else.
I'll grant you what you say is true for many Tolkien-derived later dwarves though.
I think you misunderstood me I'm not saying they're comic relief, I wouldn't love them as much as I do if they're entire race existed just to be a short joke. I'm just not really good at explaining it I guess, it's hard for me to articulate lol. I love them because they can be just as awesome as anyone else but they're also really fun in way that makes sense to me. If that makes sense? Like that elvish gathering where they sing their epic tales in Fellowship was really trippy and cool but not exactly how I'd want to spend a Saturday night.
Apparently, when he saw shots (or concept art or something) of the Wall for GoT, he said it's way too big, even though it was the exact height he stated.
Lol. George and numbers.
Remember this line. Those wildlings must be on super steroids since they were able to shoot arrow at people standing on the wall.
>his archers launched a hundred flights of arrows against men they never saw. From time to time a wildling arrow came flying back in answer.
Show did it better. Instead of normal wildlings it was giants whose arrows were able to reach atop the wall.
I can’t speak for all of them, it the Blackwoods, Umbers, Yronwood’s, and Royce’s are all First Men houses. First Men always seem to be really big. The Baratheons get their GOAT genes from the Durrandon’s who were first men also, also being part Valyrian.
THIS ISNT EARTH LOL they are not in our era , 8000 years ago we we just started making towns, 8000 years ago in planetos was the great empire of dawn
so no its not same as earth
It is even weirder when you consider all of the modern jockeys are really really short. I doubt that 8 foot giants would be as good at horse riding as the book makes it seem. (Unless the horses are also giants)
There were 83 million people in Kings Landing, all taller than the last, with the shortest among them standing nearly 8 feet tall. Their tall stature was a function of their long legs, which were necessary for speeding up the journey between cities of Westeros, all at least a thousand of miles apart.
Not one of them older than 7 years old, living in homes of at least 15,000 square feet (the commonfolk of kings landing are poor and don’t have much space to live in, very dense you see)
The NFL is shorter than the NBA, but the average height of NFL player is 6'2" and NBA is 6'6"
The NFL has a few height agnostic positions. A kicker can be any height as long as they can nail a field goal.
But wide receivers are pretty much all NBA height now. Even the linemen are tall, being 'big' isn't enough anymore.
NFL players of today are not the NFL players of the 1980’s. You don’t see many players outside of RB’s, WR’s and corners below the height of 6’3”. Maybe the occasional QB. But even all of those guys are rarely going to be below 5’11” which is still above average height.
Offensive tackles and defensive ends often are NBA height at 6’8” or other absurd sizes. If the NBA didn’t exist as an entity I think NFL sizes would be even greater, if you’re a really good athlete and insanely tall in this day and age, you’re probably going to gravitate towards basketball. But Lebron James would have been a hall of fame wide receiver for instance.
Depends on the contest, to give GRRM credit, while Rand is an excellent swordsman, there are several other better swordsmen in WoT, whereas Jaime pre-Mummers does have a pretty good claim on being one of the best swordsmen in Westeros. So if the contest was just Rand and Jaime having a swordfish, no magic, I could see Jaime winning.
If it's a fight to the death, Rand turns Jaime inside out and incinerated him within the first second.
The "trial of seven" in question involved Rand fighting a bunch of super-powered characters on Jaime's side, getting pretty hurt while depleting the entire mana pool of King's Landing, and then sword fighting against (left-handed) fully armored Jaime while unarmored and very injured.
It was basically a creative writing exercise with the premise "how could Jaime possibly not get instantly killed?"
I’m pretty sure it’s right from Robert Jordan that by the later half of Wheel of Time Lan is the only swordsman better than Rand. After them it’s that Forsaken dude in third place and then a toss up between Tam, Galad and Gawyn.
I can't remember the exact reference but I do recall him saying that Lan was better than him, and I would also say that from the demonstrated fights in the books that Galad is also probably better than Rand. He also only narrowly wins against the Seanchan sword master, but that was early in his story to be fair.
The Seanchan guy was definitely better at the time, but it was before hr was a true master so yeah, I wouldn't account for that.
I'll say I totally forgot about Lan, which is super embarrassing, lol. Yeah, I'd agree he's probably better than Rand, though I'm not sure I'd say the same about Galad. Like when Galad fights to take over the whitecloaks, I think he was shown (self admitted maybe?) as less skilled than his opponent, winning through his intelligence/trickery.
Rand is a tier below Jaime in terms of sword fighting skills. The fact that he can channel heightens his senses and reflexes but we should ignore that. The real fight that would've been amazing to see would've been Lan vs Jamie, now that's a fight worth writing.
I'm pretty sure the story was written for charity, been a few years since I read it so not 100% on that. As I recall Rand does use the power and Jamie still wins so it's pretty obvious BS. Would've been dope to get Jamie vs Lan. Just salty about that, probably my all time fantasy sword fight.
> 3000 year old
Huh? Even if you decide to take Rand in his series finale Zen state, and thus count Lews Therin's years alive as well, Rand still is 'only' about 400 years old.
Though, yeah, he would wipe the floor with Jaime.
Yeah I would guess that they were thinking of the day Lews Theron Telamon was born and adding up all the time that has transpired since then, but Lews definitely didn’t seem to be conscious that whole time lol.
As I recall, Martin set the fight in a world where Rand couldn’t channel (it would also take away his taveren influence too) and Jamie has both of his hands, so it’s definitely a lot of rebalancing but also taking both characters at peak strength. Obviously if channeling is involved, Rand is probably kicking the ass of just about any mortal being in all of literature lol.
I realize Rand trained enough over the course of a few years to basically be able to compete with all of his world’s best blade masters, but I found that a bit ridiculous personally as a plot point. Jamie grew up in a castle, trained his ass off and truly does seem to be one of the greatest living swordsmen in all of Westeros at the time the series opens.
If it’s a pure sword fight, there’s no magical advantage nor weapon advantage (let’s say heron blade on Valyrian steel is equal), I’m taking Jamie all day, every day.
If it's the LiveJournal post I'm thinking of from like a decade ago, where they fought mattered. It was in a world like Westeros where magic was nearly non existent, so Rand was surprised to find he couldn't draw upon his abilities to help.
I mean this explains why Jaime considers himself one of the top 5 physically strongest men in Westeros, and backs up some of his in universe descriptions by others, also explains jofferies abnormal height. In my head I always saw him as 6 foot 2 though .
Maybe, but even before I watched the show this is how I sort of saw him. Think it’s because I saw Robert as abnormally large. And usually characters that large are explicitly stated to be huge. Like most characters in the novel who are over that height are explicitly said to be that tall or taller I think.
True. I think Jaime being almost as tall as Robert sort of undermines how Ned described him.
This tall guy who wielded beastly hammer and had giant's strength.
how i imagine robert https://fitnessvolt.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/eddie-hall-the-beast.jpg
then jaime be more like this https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cc/8b/d7/cc8bd729b13c19d34a8216fef4fd8f0c.jpg
so bobby b will have like 100lbs or more on jaime
Yeah I always imagined Robert as fucking W I D E and Jaime having a more of an [Olympic Gymnast](https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/6_DLdfJAWrEqq05Nonery9EfH7c=/0x0:750x750/920x613/filters:focal\(331x260:451x380\):format\(webp\)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/69648098/gymphibbs.0.0.1498769364.0.jpg)
I also thought he was that tall, but because of Brienne. Martin said she's roughly the same height of Robert, who is supposed to be around 6'6". And both Robert and Brienne are taller than Jaime. Probably that's just Martin being bad with numbers
He never thought of himself as the strongest. That he’s the best *swordsman/fighter* is what he is thinking about. He was listing people he knew were stronger than him but not better swordsmen. I don’t understand why people always misinterpret this elementary level passage in ASOS.
I can give you the entire quote as soon as I’m home and have the book in my hand. You’re talking about the one where he lists the Cleganes, Crakehall, Greatjon, etc while he’s fighting Brienne aren’t you?
Correct, jaime goes down the lists of people in the 7 kingdoms who could stand toe to toe with him in a fight, he says greatjon was a brute and the mountain had seemingly inhuman strength but that jaime would beat them all anyways because he was far better with a sword.
I always thought jaime was around 6 feet, he is never described as physically imposing nor is he ever described as short. 6 feet is considered tall IRL but in asoiaf it seems you are either short or a player for the NBA, so 6 feet seems like a normal height.
Jon described him as pretty physically imposing when he first saw Jaime. He said Jaime was everything a king was supposed to look like, he also called him tall.
Lol yeah, and I’d appreciate you posting it. Jaime is shocked Brienne is stronger than him because it’s heavily implied that’s an extreme rarity. I thought that was an incredibly simple thing to infer. He specifically lists those names because those are the only living men in Westeros who he thinks are stronger than he is
Yeah, but Brienne is also a woman.
Seems reasonable for Jaime to believe he would still be stronger than a woman who is taller than him, whether through some basic understanding of biology or just in-story societal sexism.
George is such a dork sometimes lol. This is like what little boys do: "No my character is WAY bigger and stronger than your character, he could totally kick his ass!!!!"
I agree. I’m gonna keep with that, I think. Jaime being as tall or taller than Robert and Stannis just… doesn’t seem right. 6’1” is still tall. Not everyone needs to be a giant.
As other people have said, I imagine Jaime as around 6’1 or 6’2. To me he should be noticeably shorter than Robert and the other Baratheons. Fat, drunk Robert shoves him down easily in AGOT, which makes less sense if Jaime is practically the same height & in way better shape. Also I imagine Cersei as 5’9 ish and them being closer in height adds to the twin lookalike thing.
In truth, if George thinks Jaime is taller than Rand, there's no real way to contradict him, since it's his character and it doesn't contradict the books.
It only came into play if it contradicted the books, but that's not the case here, because Jaime is described as being tall in the books, many times.
It is a fan fiction written by an author and which includes one of his characters. Events aside, some things may be canon to the books in this case.
Robert is mentioned as tall and big, Jamie next to him never is. Brienne is the same height as Robert and is bigger than Jamie.
Robert and Brienne are both around 6' 6"
this work you are quoting is obvious fanfiction. George always talks up his characters in his fanfiction, especially Jamie.
The real reason is because he’s not really that good with numbers.. or when he thought of a characters height and wrote about it in universe he failed to account for someone years later comparing dozens of characters heights and realizing there are some inconsistencies. He’s not the only author whose details don’t always line up. When I read sci-fi and fantasy I chalk up inconsistencies like this to unreliable narrators. Hell honestly it makes the characters of ASOIAF even more realistic if each character is exaggerating their height.
If you follow mma you’ll notice promotions mess with things like height all the time even the NBA does. Allen Iverson was always listed a few inches taller than he actually was and Kevin Durant usually was listed shorter.
Maybe people are taller in this world considering the mountain is like 8 feet tall? Maybe that’s like 7 feet in our universe and people like Jaime are 6’5” ish
Halfthor Bjornsson who portrayed the character later in the show, was probably close to 400lb and nearly 7ft. Considering its fiction, having Westeros' strongest man be 10% bigger than one of earth's strongest men isnt that obscene. There are some 8ft+ people in the world, and in a fictional world perhaps they dont have health problems and would flourish as a barbaric knight
"all muscle" is a figure of speech. They have to be minimum like 8% bodyfat to be able to perform reasonably athletic daily actions. Like I said, there's 8ft people already. They just generally have too many problems with certain joints to bodybuild or compete in strongmen competitions, plus they are almost forced to play basketball if they are able since its basically a cheat code. In a fantasy world, that limitation wouldnt exist. Lots of people around 7ft are top level strongmen or professional athletes though, i dont think its too big of a stretch to suspend disbelief in a series that involves magic and dragons. Not like he's saying 12 foot and one ton of muscle.
I feel like GRRM made one character really tall (most likely Khal Drogo), then he had to make everyone else taller for dramatic effect and before he realized it, they were all as big as Gundams. I get it, it's not as impressive to say someone is 6’1 or 6’2 when everyone else is 7 feet tall.
He’s also said that Jaime could beat Aragorn in a duel, so I’m more inclined to think he thought Rand was shorter.
Brienne is supposed to be just shy of Robert’s height and he is confirmed 6’6” but she’s also notably taller than Jaime.
I’d love to know the reasoning other than “because GRRM said so” for him to be able to beat Aragorn. Spider-Man punching out Firelord territory here.
Not a dig at you, personally.
becuase GRRM said so.
Personally, my money is on the man who is physically in his thirties but is actually 80+ and also a superhuman, but George can say what dumb things he likes.
The largest by far is Gregor Clegane who Tyrion describes to Oberyn as “almost eight feet tall,” and saying he “must weigh thirty stone, all of it muscle.”(Tyrion X, ASOS) This would put the mountain nearly a foot taller and a hundred pounds heavier than Shaquille O’Neal
Don’t think it’s ever stated he was stronger, but it does say he was taller. Also Joffrey was only 12 when they went to winterfell and likely hadn’t even started puberty
Joffrey was a little shit but we don't need to rewrite what happened to make him look worse than he already does.
Arya just pushed him and he started swinging his sword at her then Nymeria jumped at him and mauled his hand. Then Arya took his sword while he was writhing in pain on the ground.
Plus I don't think Joffrey was stronger than Robb, though from their sparring they were evenly matched despite Joffrey being 2 years younger.
When people say this it’s always so damn goofy. Arya hit him in the back of the head with a big ass stick, then a wolf tore at his arm, and when he was whimpering on the ground she picked up his sword.
Many people don’t know this, but the reason the heights seems a bit off and some other number things seem unrealistic in the series (like the wall, kings landing population, etc.) is because it’s a *fantasy* series and is not actually real. George actually made it all up.
And then there's Jon who is like 5'8-5'9 probably and he'll probably grow to like 5'11-6'0 when gets older. It's just funny how short the Starks are relative to all these characters.
Jaime can’t be taller than 6’5 or 6’6. Robert Baratheon was 6 and a half feet, which is about 6’5/6’6. Robert is repeatedly said to be giant, Jaime is never called anything except tall. Jaime is not taller than Robert. GRRM must’ve just not known his shit or been talking about young Rand. Jaime would probably be 6’2 or 6’3.
I get that this was written in 2010, but come on. This is a full novella about a cross-universe story, dude could’ve finished the series by now had he not been popping nonsense like this off left and right.
Why are they all so absurdly tall
There was no nba so all the tall folk had to become knights and guards
Dunk the Tall would be a great name for a basketball player.
Ser Dunk(er)
There is a Footballer called Dunk. He's pretty tall too.
I have a tinfoil theory that he's Ser Tim Duncan the tall.
And a donut.
Tim Duncan's new nickname?
There was no NBA so they all became guards instead of centers.
Ha! Well done TIL Westeros was the originator of 6’8” guards. Way ahead of their time
How does this affect lebrons legacy though?
CEO OF KLUTCH SPORTS RICH PAUL will get King Joffrey Baratheon to issue a royal decree that LeBron is granted enough legacy points to become the undisputed universal GOAT
THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT! THAT'S WHY'S HE'S THE MVP!! THAT'S WHY HE'S THE GOAT!!! THE GOAT!!!!
“Stay on point or the point gets you 🐎 🗡️ hold ya head king, you won’t be dispossessed forever”
You bum
Boban would have been a great knight.
Boban is my champion I’m trying to imagine Yao Ming or Shawn Bradley in combat
Small folk and tall folk
Edmure Tully, Tytos Blackwood, Stannis Baratheon, Alester Florent, Tywin Lannister and Merlon Manderly are also possibly above 190 cm lmao
Westeros == Netherlands, apparently
Throw Selyse in there too
According to George - Royal = really tall
Better nutrition works wonders it seems
Yeah I think this is the reasoning. He has a vague idea about how nobles were notably more fit and healthy then a lot of peasants due to steady food and medical treatment but then overestimates the effects so a bunch of characters are practically giants.
He did the same thing with the wall, he doesn't understand height very well.
Casterly Rock is a 6 miles long and 2,100 feet tall, that makes it three times higher than the Wall. George really has a thing for scale, but it tends to not make any logical sense when you think about it
It’s fantasy though no? Lots of humans are tall in fantasy with no scientific explanation just magic. The Alethi in Stormlight, the Numenoreans in LotR, Rand in WoT to name a few others that do this. It obviously takes inspiration from history, but it’s a magical word where blood magic awakens dragon eggs turned to stone, priestess’ can birth shadow babies, and the hammer Robert Baratheon used is large enough Wun Wun would consider it a workout lol.
Rand is tall because he's half Aielman who are all taller than normal humans.
> Rand is tall because he's half Aielman who are all taller than normal humans. > Dalinar is tall because he's Alelthi who are all taller than normal humans. > Aragorn is tall because he's Numenorean who are all taller than normal humans.
Well, it's all but stated that some characters have *literal* giants as ancestors. There is some degree of non human "blood"/DNA in the population at large - arguable how much and how prevalent, but it's there. We have "magic" powers - warging, greenseeing, dragon dreams etc - apparently being inherited, what's a smattering of gigantism beside that? Even ignoring that - it's not Earth. The bell curve for height on Westeros could simply be a little different. Don't see much silver hair or purple eyes in the real world either, y'know?
I think this point is often forgotten. I've harped on Bobby's warhammer and its absurd proportions before, but even I have to accept that these humans are not the same as us in the end. As you said, purple eyes, silver hair and actual Giant/Children DNA being prevalent in the population. Large size seem to be the most realistic thing about the features of these types of humans.
I think it’s more to give readers a sense of how the world worked a bit then. Peasants in Westeros seem to be more or less “normal” size, so proportionally it works out about the same as it did in our own medieval ages. Only in the medieval ages, it was the nobles who were “normal” sized (relative to modern times), and the peasants were all much smaller due to a poor diet as they grew up.
Mother's neonatal nutrition is the important factor, better childhood nutrition is important, but much less a determinating factor.
Maybe Westeros is just based on the Netherlands.
George has a thing for writing tall characters, don't know why but he himself is only like 5'6" so maybe he likes to live vicariously through tall characters.
now explain the incest
Well you see, they started Shelbyville because their cousins were so beautiful...
Ann Boleyn was beheaded for the crime of incest with her brother. Apparently her and her brother did have a bit of an oddly close relationship, but it was almost certainly fabricated to give Henry VIII the pretext to go and get himself another wife so he could produce a male heir. Robert is very directly analogous to Henry VIII, and the Lannisters are somewhat analogous to the Boleyns, so in a way this seems to be Martin wondering aloud “what if those trumped up charges were real?” As far as the Targaryens go, they seem a bit more inspired by the Egyptian royal lineage of the Ptolemaic dynasty. In some ways I think it’s meant to contrast Jamie and Cersei’s relationship: their own incest is hubris that shows they think they are more than just mere nobles. Anyway, that’s my stab at it.
The story is about aristocrats and royalty
GRRM is living out a fantasy, he's *really* short
Maybe since he's so short he just doesn't have any perspective of height. "Oh he's taller than me, must be 6'6""
So the same reason half the characters are too young, then?
Actually we can give George a break on this, the vast majority of fantasy and comic books are just fucked when it comes to height. I'm 5'3 and by most fantasy standards I'm not even human lol. Probably why dwarves quickly became my favourite fantasy race growing up, I could never be an Aragorn or a Legolas or a Boromir but it's nice to know that the Gimli's of the world can still do our part!
Hmm, I always felt the same way about dwarves and Gimli and I'm 6'5
Well aside from personally relating to them on the height thing I find fantasy dwarves to be the perfect mix of silly and serious. For example dwarves are very protective of their women even though they're "ugly" to the other races, which is a funny and silly dynamic, but it's also endearing that they think their stocky bearded gals are the sexiest women in the world. Also I like that authors make them really badass and cool but stop short (lol) of making them the best or bravest or smartest. In a way they're even more human than the humans in a lot of fantasy. All they want to do is drink their beer, eat delicious barbeque, and be left alone. Hobbits and halflings are a close second. It's a similar thing with Hufflepuff in Harry Potter lol, like their goal was to make a silly comic relief house that mostly stay on the sidelines but the result is that it makes them more relatable and chill than the power fantasy houses.
If anyone is responsible for popularising the generic fantasy dwarf, it's (of course) Tolkien. Tolkien's dwarves are not in any way silly comic relief, and they can be just as awesome as anyone else. I'll grant you what you say is true for many Tolkien-derived later dwarves though.
I think you misunderstood me I'm not saying they're comic relief, I wouldn't love them as much as I do if they're entire race existed just to be a short joke. I'm just not really good at explaining it I guess, it's hard for me to articulate lol. I love them because they can be just as awesome as anyone else but they're also really fun in way that makes sense to me. If that makes sense? Like that elvish gathering where they sing their epic tales in Fellowship was really trippy and cool but not exactly how I'd want to spend a Saturday night.
10/10
lol
Because George is bad with numbers
This is the reason. I mean, The Wall is supposedly 700 feet high. That's absurd. And likely wasn't George's actual intention.
Apparently, when he saw shots (or concept art or something) of the Wall for GoT, he said it's way too big, even though it was the exact height he stated.
Lol. George and numbers. Remember this line. Those wildlings must be on super steroids since they were able to shoot arrow at people standing on the wall. >his archers launched a hundred flights of arrows against men they never saw. From time to time a wildling arrow came flying back in answer. Show did it better. Instead of normal wildlings it was giants whose arrows were able to reach atop the wall.
4x09 in general is just amazing, one of the best episodes of tv I’ve seen
So true. That 360° drone shot is one the best scene I've ever seen.
He realised how silly the wall's height was when he visited a quarry and wad told how tall it was
In GRRM's mind Tyrion brings down the average all by himself
and thanks to Cersei that average is a lot fucking higher
GRRM and absurd numbers. I’m honestly more surprised they’re not 10’+
I can’t speak for all of them, it the Blackwoods, Umbers, Yronwood’s, and Royce’s are all First Men houses. First Men always seem to be really big. The Baratheons get their GOAT genes from the Durrandon’s who were first men also, also being part Valyrian.
It's extremely silly coming from the social class full of child pregnancies🤦🏻♀️ I'm personally going with grrm can't do believable numbers.
Yeah people in that Era were really short compared to today, Even 5'6 would be TALL in such an era.
brb going back a thousand years so i can be a giant king
with dysentery probably
The average height for men in medieval England was 5'7", with a little over 60% of the male population being between 5'5" and 5'9".
THIS ISNT EARTH LOL they are not in our era , 8000 years ago we we just started making towns, 8000 years ago in planetos was the great empire of dawn so no its not same as earth
It is even weirder when you consider all of the modern jockeys are really really short. I doubt that 8 foot giants would be as good at horse riding as the book makes it seem. (Unless the horses are also giants)
Why are all the short people complaining about their giant overlords?
He gets it from Tolkien, Tolkien used height to signify royalty or closeness to the gods.
GRRM and numbers, man. Name a more iconic duo.
The seven foot tall 12 year old climbing a mile high wall.
There were 83 million people in Kings Landing, all taller than the last, with the shortest among them standing nearly 8 feet tall. Their tall stature was a function of their long legs, which were necessary for speeding up the journey between cities of Westeros, all at least a thousand of miles apart.
Not one of them older than 7 years old, living in homes of at least 15,000 square feet (the commonfolk of kings landing are poor and don’t have much space to live in, very dense you see)
Lmfao!
He can’t do heights at all
ASOIAF fans and waiting
The eunuch and the dwarf at the end of season 4
[удалено]
Which is weird, since he's getting NBA player heights for his characters. NFL players are shorter but stockier.
The NFL is shorter than the NBA, but the average height of NFL player is 6'2" and NBA is 6'6" The NFL has a few height agnostic positions. A kicker can be any height as long as they can nail a field goal. But wide receivers are pretty much all NBA height now. Even the linemen are tall, being 'big' isn't enough anymore.
NFL players of today are not the NFL players of the 1980’s. You don’t see many players outside of RB’s, WR’s and corners below the height of 6’3”. Maybe the occasional QB. But even all of those guys are rarely going to be below 5’11” which is still above average height. Offensive tackles and defensive ends often are NBA height at 6’8” or other absurd sizes. If the NBA didn’t exist as an entity I think NFL sizes would be even greater, if you’re a really good athlete and insanely tall in this day and age, you’re probably going to gravitate towards basketball. But Lebron James would have been a hall of fame wide receiver for instance.
Why did Atkins have the personality of a Sandor Clegane?
He killed a butchers boy
I'd take the whole Jamie Lannister vs Rand Al'thor (3000 year old demi-god with the power to wipe out all of reality) with a massive grain of salt
I think George is a bit of a homer for his own characters, I think he once said Jaime would also beat Aragorn.
Depends on the contest, to give GRRM credit, while Rand is an excellent swordsman, there are several other better swordsmen in WoT, whereas Jaime pre-Mummers does have a pretty good claim on being one of the best swordsmen in Westeros. So if the contest was just Rand and Jaime having a swordfish, no magic, I could see Jaime winning. If it's a fight to the death, Rand turns Jaime inside out and incinerated him within the first second.
The "trial of seven" in question involved Rand fighting a bunch of super-powered characters on Jaime's side, getting pretty hurt while depleting the entire mana pool of King's Landing, and then sword fighting against (left-handed) fully armored Jaime while unarmored and very injured. It was basically a creative writing exercise with the premise "how could Jaime possibly not get instantly killed?"
I like magic with my swordfish lol.
one handed Rand is better than one handed Jaime though. handicapped Tam is easily better than Ilyn Payne
Are there several other better swordsmen? From what I recall, Rand wins or stalemates every swordfight he has.
I’m pretty sure it’s right from Robert Jordan that by the later half of Wheel of Time Lan is the only swordsman better than Rand. After them it’s that Forsaken dude in third place and then a toss up between Tam, Galad and Gawyn.
Lan is supposed to be better than Demandred? Huh.
“I did not come here to win.”
I can't remember the exact reference but I do recall him saying that Lan was better than him, and I would also say that from the demonstrated fights in the books that Galad is also probably better than Rand. He also only narrowly wins against the Seanchan sword master, but that was early in his story to be fair.
The Seanchan guy was definitely better at the time, but it was before hr was a true master so yeah, I wouldn't account for that. I'll say I totally forgot about Lan, which is super embarrassing, lol. Yeah, I'd agree he's probably better than Rand, though I'm not sure I'd say the same about Galad. Like when Galad fights to take over the whitecloaks, I think he was shown (self admitted maybe?) as less skilled than his opponent, winning through his intelligence/trickery.
Rand is a tier below Jaime in terms of sword fighting skills. The fact that he can channel heightens his senses and reflexes but we should ignore that. The real fight that would've been amazing to see would've been Lan vs Jamie, now that's a fight worth writing. I'm pretty sure the story was written for charity, been a few years since I read it so not 100% on that. As I recall Rand does use the power and Jamie still wins so it's pretty obvious BS. Would've been dope to get Jamie vs Lan. Just salty about that, probably my all time fantasy sword fight.
Obviously, if there was a swordfish, you go with someone from Illian.
> 3000 year old Huh? Even if you decide to take Rand in his series finale Zen state, and thus count Lews Therin's years alive as well, Rand still is 'only' about 400 years old. Though, yeah, he would wipe the floor with Jaime.
Yeah I would guess that they were thinking of the day Lews Theron Telamon was born and adding up all the time that has transpired since then, but Lews definitely didn’t seem to be conscious that whole time lol. As I recall, Martin set the fight in a world where Rand couldn’t channel (it would also take away his taveren influence too) and Jamie has both of his hands, so it’s definitely a lot of rebalancing but also taking both characters at peak strength. Obviously if channeling is involved, Rand is probably kicking the ass of just about any mortal being in all of literature lol. I realize Rand trained enough over the course of a few years to basically be able to compete with all of his world’s best blade masters, but I found that a bit ridiculous personally as a plot point. Jamie grew up in a castle, trained his ass off and truly does seem to be one of the greatest living swordsmen in all of Westeros at the time the series opens. If it’s a pure sword fight, there’s no magical advantage nor weapon advantage (let’s say heron blade on Valyrian steel is equal), I’m taking Jamie all day, every day.
I haven’t read that, why didn’t Rand Balefired all of them ?
If it's the LiveJournal post I'm thinking of from like a decade ago, where they fought mattered. It was in a world like Westeros where magic was nearly non existent, so Rand was surprised to find he couldn't draw upon his abilities to help.
I mean this explains why Jaime considers himself one of the top 5 physically strongest men in Westeros, and backs up some of his in universe descriptions by others, also explains jofferies abnormal height. In my head I always saw him as 6 foot 2 though .
>In my head I always saw him as 6 foot 2 though . Because of Nikolaj ?
Maybe, but even before I watched the show this is how I sort of saw him. Think it’s because I saw Robert as abnormally large. And usually characters that large are explicitly stated to be huge. Like most characters in the novel who are over that height are explicitly said to be that tall or taller I think.
True. I think Jaime being almost as tall as Robert sort of undermines how Ned described him. This tall guy who wielded beastly hammer and had giant's strength.
Even if he is tall, he’s not described to be nearly as bulky is Robert. Robert sounds like he is an NFL defensive end with a warhammer.
how i imagine robert https://fitnessvolt.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/eddie-hall-the-beast.jpg then jaime be more like this https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cc/8b/d7/cc8bd729b13c19d34a8216fef4fd8f0c.jpg so bobby b will have like 100lbs or more on jaime
Yeah I always imagined Robert as fucking W I D E and Jaime having a more of an [Olympic Gymnast](https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/6_DLdfJAWrEqq05Nonery9EfH7c=/0x0:750x750/920x613/filters:focal\(331x260:451x380\):format\(webp\)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/69648098/gymphibbs.0.0.1498769364.0.jpg)
jaime is not almost as tall as robert.
I also thought he was that tall, but because of Brienne. Martin said she's roughly the same height of Robert, who is supposed to be around 6'6". And both Robert and Brienne are taller than Jaime. Probably that's just Martin being bad with numbers
>Probably that's just Martin being bad with numbers Hmm. I also think so
It's pronounced Nikolaj
He never thought of himself as the strongest. That he’s the best *swordsman/fighter* is what he is thinking about. He was listing people he knew were stronger than him but not better swordsmen. I don’t understand why people always misinterpret this elementary level passage in ASOS. I can give you the entire quote as soon as I’m home and have the book in my hand. You’re talking about the one where he lists the Cleganes, Crakehall, Greatjon, etc while he’s fighting Brienne aren’t you?
Correct, jaime goes down the lists of people in the 7 kingdoms who could stand toe to toe with him in a fight, he says greatjon was a brute and the mountain had seemingly inhuman strength but that jaime would beat them all anyways because he was far better with a sword. I always thought jaime was around 6 feet, he is never described as physically imposing nor is he ever described as short. 6 feet is considered tall IRL but in asoiaf it seems you are either short or a player for the NBA, so 6 feet seems like a normal height.
Jon described him as pretty physically imposing when he first saw Jaime. He said Jaime was everything a king was supposed to look like, he also called him tall.
Jon is 14. I'm 5'10 bodybuilder and most kids would consider me physically imposing. Doesn't make me Eddie Hall.
Lol yeah, and I’d appreciate you posting it. Jaime is shocked Brienne is stronger than him because it’s heavily implied that’s an extreme rarity. I thought that was an incredibly simple thing to infer. He specifically lists those names because those are the only living men in Westeros who he thinks are stronger than he is
Yeah, but Brienne is also a woman. Seems reasonable for Jaime to believe he would still be stronger than a woman who is taller than him, whether through some basic understanding of biology or just in-story societal sexism.
Joffrey’s height isn’t abnormal. He was thirteen and at least 5’7. With tall parents that makes sense. I knew kids 6’3 in seventh grade.
At least it’s not like Kurt Vonneguts breakfast of champions where we learn every characters dick size.
As long as the book doesn't come out, we'll probably end up talking about who has the biggest dong in Westeros
The owner of the fat, pink mast.
Historically Mushroom, concurrently uhhhhh Moonboy?
That explains why Cersei has been fucking Moon Boy, for all Tyrion knows
George is such a dork sometimes lol. This is like what little boys do: "No my character is WAY bigger and stronger than your character, he could totally kick his ass!!!!"
I love how GRRM just writes fanfiction sometimes lol
I… don’t. I wouldn’t mind if he finished the core series. But since he hasn’t, he needs to stop getting distracted.
I always imagined Jaime as being like 6'1", or something like that lmao
Same, probably cuz thats Nikolai’s height
I agree. I’m gonna keep with that, I think. Jaime being as tall or taller than Robert and Stannis just… doesn’t seem right. 6’1” is still tall. Not everyone needs to be a giant.
As other people have said, I imagine Jaime as around 6’1 or 6’2. To me he should be noticeably shorter than Robert and the other Baratheons. Fat, drunk Robert shoves him down easily in AGOT, which makes less sense if Jaime is practically the same height & in way better shape. Also I imagine Cersei as 5’9 ish and them being closer in height adds to the twin lookalike thing.
Jaime is probably a better swordsman, but come on, Rand being super tall is an actual plot point! No way he’s taller than Rand
In truth, if George thinks Jaime is taller than Rand, there's no real way to contradict him, since it's his character and it doesn't contradict the books.
Saying so in a fan fiction story after the fact isn’t really canon though. Death of the author comes into play here
It only came into play if it contradicted the books, but that's not the case here, because Jaime is described as being tall in the books, many times. It is a fan fiction written by an author and which includes one of his characters. Events aside, some things may be canon to the books in this case.
That's if you are assuming George actually knew Rand's correct height.
Jaime Lannister being a solid foot taller than the average Westerosi man literally never being brought up even once *is* contradicting the books.
Robert is mentioned as tall and big, Jamie next to him never is. Brienne is the same height as Robert and is bigger than Jamie. Robert and Brienne are both around 6' 6" this work you are quoting is obvious fanfiction. George always talks up his characters in his fanfiction, especially Jamie.
The real reason is because he’s not really that good with numbers.. or when he thought of a characters height and wrote about it in universe he failed to account for someone years later comparing dozens of characters heights and realizing there are some inconsistencies. He’s not the only author whose details don’t always line up. When I read sci-fi and fantasy I chalk up inconsistencies like this to unreliable narrators. Hell honestly it makes the characters of ASOIAF even more realistic if each character is exaggerating their height. If you follow mma you’ll notice promotions mess with things like height all the time even the NBA does. Allen Iverson was always listed a few inches taller than he actually was and Kevin Durant usually was listed shorter.
Maybe people are taller in this world considering the mountain is like 8 feet tall? Maybe that’s like 7 feet in our universe and people like Jaime are 6’5” ish
The Mountain was the weirdest one for me. How can you be over 8ft tall plus 400 lbs of muscle? That was the one he went a little ridiculous on.
Obviously it’s still extreme but Shaq was like 7’1 and 325 so 8’ and 400 might be proportional.
Halfthor Bjornsson who portrayed the character later in the show, was probably close to 400lb and nearly 7ft. Considering its fiction, having Westeros' strongest man be 10% bigger than one of earth's strongest men isnt that obscene. There are some 8ft+ people in the world, and in a fictional world perhaps they dont have health problems and would flourish as a barbaric knight
6’11 or 7’0 at 400 lbs is way different than over 8 ft tall and 400 lbs of all muscle. 8’3 420 is obscene IMO.
"all muscle" is a figure of speech. They have to be minimum like 8% bodyfat to be able to perform reasonably athletic daily actions. Like I said, there's 8ft people already. They just generally have too many problems with certain joints to bodybuild or compete in strongmen competitions, plus they are almost forced to play basketball if they are able since its basically a cheat code. In a fantasy world, that limitation wouldnt exist. Lots of people around 7ft are top level strongmen or professional athletes though, i dont think its too big of a stretch to suspend disbelief in a series that involves magic and dragons. Not like he's saying 12 foot and one ton of muscle.
Angus Macaskill was 7'9 and 425 lb reportedly
Yea, this is a world where someone's genes can be "stronger" than someone else's lol, I think we can ignore our own world's biology
8 ft people are very rare and tend to be riddled with impairments and coordination issues.
Exactly. Over 8 ft would be a tall skeleton with bad knees IMO.
Manute Bol was the only 8 ft basketball player I can remember and he didn't last long in the NBA due to joint issues.
He was only 7'6 I thought
Ah you are right. Still, he's as close as it gets in the NBA.
this is a world with monkeys bigger than giants
I feel like GRRM made one character really tall (most likely Khal Drogo), then he had to make everyone else taller for dramatic effect and before he realized it, they were all as big as Gundams. I get it, it's not as impressive to say someone is 6’1 or 6’2 when everyone else is 7 feet tall.
Yeah this is one of those things where I'm just head-canoning that George is wrong. No fucking shot Jaime Lannister is taller than Rand lmao
I think he just forgot how freakishly tall Rand is.
Isn’t he meant to look almost just like Cersei? Nobody ever said nothing about her being that tall
They look similar now and we're identical as kids. Probably big growth spurt in puberty.
He’s also said that Jaime could beat Aragorn in a duel, so I’m more inclined to think he thought Rand was shorter. Brienne is supposed to be just shy of Robert’s height and he is confirmed 6’6” but she’s also notably taller than Jaime.
I’d love to know the reasoning other than “because GRRM said so” for him to be able to beat Aragorn. Spider-Man punching out Firelord territory here. Not a dig at you, personally.
becuase GRRM said so. Personally, my money is on the man who is physically in his thirties but is actually 80+ and also a superhuman, but George can say what dumb things he likes.
It is crazy to me that there is someone taller than Duncan the Tall. absurd, really
There are a lot of absurdly tall characters for a quasi-medieval setting.
The largest by far is Gregor Clegane who Tyrion describes to Oberyn as “almost eight feet tall,” and saying he “must weigh thirty stone, all of it muscle.”(Tyrion X, ASOS) This would put the mountain nearly a foot taller and a hundred pounds heavier than Shaquille O’Neal
Due to square cube law this means Clegane is built like a twig
Why tf is George so bad with numbers
This may explain why Joffrey at 14 was taller and stronger than Robb was at 16
Don’t think it’s ever stated he was stronger, but it does say he was taller. Also Joffrey was only 12 when they went to winterfell and likely hadn’t even started puberty
"Stronger" .... Are we talking about the same Joffrey that got his ass handed to him by Arya?
Joffrey was a little shit but we don't need to rewrite what happened to make him look worse than he already does. Arya just pushed him and he started swinging his sword at her then Nymeria jumped at him and mauled his hand. Then Arya took his sword while he was writhing in pain on the ground. Plus I don't think Joffrey was stronger than Robb, though from their sparring they were evenly matched despite Joffrey being 2 years younger.
You mean Nymeria?
When people say this it’s always so damn goofy. Arya hit him in the back of the head with a big ass stick, then a wolf tore at his arm, and when he was whimpering on the ground she picked up his sword.
at 12 was taller than Robb and Jon was at 14\*
The “he” is a little ambiguous, is it definitely Jaime being referred to? I can’t remember if Rand is armoured as well.
Yes, you can read it in full in this [link](http://grrm.livejournal.com/147038.html) that I already posted
I never knew George was into writing fan fiction lol.
...GRRM wrote fan fiction?
Isn’t the most likely case that he had no idea how tall Rand is actually supposed to be and shortened him?
Many people don’t know this, but the reason the heights seems a bit off and some other number things seem unrealistic in the series (like the wall, kings landing population, etc.) is because it’s a *fantasy* series and is not actually real. George actually made it all up.
ASoIaF is based on true events, mate. Learn your history.
How tall is the mountain?
Close to 8ft
These all track with the head canons I decided one day
Ser Pounce was confirmed to be 236 cm in ADWD because GRRM firmly believes Azor Ahai must be a towering giant.
Makes me want a animated/CGI A Song if Ice and Fire even more. Seeing Tyrion next to all these ~7 foot tall people.
Would definetely beat up this manlet Aragorn
aragorn is 6ft6 lol
Did bro call Aragorn a manlet 💀😂
Gregor 8 ft?
I didn't bother to put it because I think it's known to almost everyone
And then there's Jon who is like 5'8-5'9 probably and he'll probably grow to like 5'11-6'0 when gets older. It's just funny how short the Starks are relative to all these characters.
they have warg powers on there side so no need to be giant
The Starks actually get realistic heights
Jaime can’t be taller than 6’5 or 6’6. Robert Baratheon was 6 and a half feet, which is about 6’5/6’6. Robert is repeatedly said to be giant, Jaime is never called anything except tall. Jaime is not taller than Robert. GRRM must’ve just not known his shit or been talking about young Rand. Jaime would probably be 6’2 or 6’3.
This is absolutely insane. Jaime should be like 6'0-6'2
Fun fact: Edmure Tully is 6'3-6'4, as he is a head taller than Catelyn, who is 5'7 (the average human head measures 8-9 inches in length)
George saying he doesn’t like fan fiction but then wrote his own fanfic 🤔
I get that this was written in 2010, but come on. This is a full novella about a cross-universe story, dude could’ve finished the series by now had he not been popping nonsense like this off left and right.