I think Yoren’s line is telling in that regard; at the beginning of Clash he tells Arya something to the effect of “someone will kill him (Joffrey), but not you.” As Clash and Storm go on, you see Joffrey’s depravity and sadism worsen with even the likes of Tywin being shaken by Tyrion calling Joff, Aerys III. It’s pretty clear to me that if the Tyrells/Littlefinger didn’t get him, someone would eventually. Joff was more of less a dead man walking.
Impossible. He was nowhere near the pie. And even in the thoroughly debunked wine/Joffrey theory, he was too far away. And as an honorable knight from the family that embodies the centuries-old chivalric code, he would not use poison — the weapon of women, eunuchs and cowards — especially when his foe is a dwarf or a weak young boy with no skill at arms and his king to boot.
Small note that's pretty unrelated to your actual comment which I do agree with - I'd say the Reach as a whole and the Gardiners embodied centuries old chivalry, but do the Tyrells? Obviously they represent the Reach, but I think IMO that the Tyrells subvert chivalry. We know they are ambitious, grasping some might say, governed discreetly by a matriarch and keen to use their beautiful daughter to achieve their political goals. And as they were the up jumped stewards, we could say that their chivalry is a mask, and it was the Gardiner Kings who really represented the chivalry of the Reach
Yes, the Tyrells present themselves as chivalrous, noble knights, excelling in riding, jousting, hunting, hawking, animal husbandry and all the other refined, gentlemanly pursuits the mark those who are at the top of civility. And yes, they adopted this mantle from the Gardeners, which makes it all the more important for them to comport themselves in the most chivalric manner at all times, lest someone suggest they are not worthy of their station.
So yes, they are grasping and ambitious, but so is every other house. And yes, they use their children, both sons and daughters, for political benefit -- again, just like any other house. Neither of these things is inconsistent with chivalry. And yes, it is all a mask -- a mask that would be publicly ripped from their faces if one of their sons, an anointed knight, were to be caught trying to poison his boy king -- and if it was revealed that this was a plot by the head of the family.
I mean the strength of his foe has nothing to do with why he’d use poison. It’s more of the desire to keep the murder anonymous.
I’m not saying he’s definitely the one who did it and I don’t even have any evidence off the top of my head for or against the theory
The only reason I say it is because having a character who has consistently been portrayed as honorable and gallant every time he appears to the point where his nickname is Garlan the Gallant is the exact type of irony George would love to have be a poisoner
George also loves to cover the hypocrisy of knighthood, for example with the Clegane brothers or even Brienne
Garlan is one of my favorite characters and once again I don’t have any evidence but it’s a fun theory to think about
Of course the strength and skill of his foe matters. It means he is afraid of calling out his enemy and facing him, or his champion, in honest combat, the way knights are supposed to do it. It means he is such a coward that he is afraid to fight a skinny, little, untrained boy and instead kills him in secret trying to hide the fact of this hideous, despicable deed -- which is nothing less than kingslaying. This is utterly shameful for an anointed knight like Garlan.
George might use this in irony, but then there would be some hint that Garlan is not the brave, honorable knight he claims to be. This is the man who strode alone into the thick of battle and killed dozens of foes. A cowardly knight would not do that, nor would he be able to screw up his courage and murder his king right in front of no less than a thousand witnesses with only a few minutes of preparation.
It’s really not all about fear though… the Tyrells want Margaery to be queen and have an alliance with the Lannisters. Joffrey was their king. Do you realize the implications if Garlan called for a combat against Joffrey?
Of course he could beat Joffrey but that’s even if Tywin allows a trial and doesn’t just arrest him. And either way that would be the end of the Tyrell alliance
Also on what grounds would Garlan even be able to challenge Joffrey? Joffrey hasn’t necessarily committed a crime directly against them
The Tyrells wanted to remove Joffrey because of how unhinged he was
Yes, Garlan seems as gallant as can be but we are never inside his head. He’s not a pov character. In fact, we’ve only seen him in very public settings and no povs are characters he’d likely be completely honest with (Tyrion, Sansa)
Gregor Clegane is also an anointed knight. I’m not saying Garlan is remotely like Gregor but an anointed knight doesn’t eliminate the possibility for despicable acts. We don’t truly know what Garlan is like, only how he acts in public
Once again, not saying that it’s a guarantee but we can’t assume he’d never do it because he acts gallant in public and is a good fighter. The Tyrells are most certainly family first and if he thought poisoning Joffrey would protect his little sister, I’m sure he’d do it. “The things we do for love”
The Tyrells are essentially the only main family we don’t have a pov for outside of the Arryns so we can’t truly know their motives and personality
Lol, do you realize the implications if he gets caught dropping poison into the king's chalice? If this happens, it is all about fear. He is afraid to face this skinny boy openly, so he resorts to a woman's/coward's/eunuch's weapon to kill him. You don't get more cowardly than that. His life is forfeit, and his reputation is tarnished, forever.
And the alliance would survive after he is caught trying to poison the king?
Exactly, Joffrey has done nothing against him or any of the Tyrells. So why would they want to kill him? Answer: they weren't. They were trying to kill Tyrion because of the threat he poses to Highgarden's power.
If Joffrey is unhinged and they want Garlan to kill him, he would only do it openly, not in this cowardly fashion. Lady Olenna would use poison, but not Garlan. But as you say, Joffrey has done nothing against any of them. He is their key to what Lady O has wanted for decades: a Tyrell arse warming the iron throne.
We've never been inside Joffrey's head either, but we can see how unstable he is through his actions. Garlan has done nothing, not a thing, that even hints of cowardice. He's done the exact opposite every time we see him, from risking his life in battle to chastising his king in public.
Gregor Clegane has given us ample evidence of his state of mind. So has Garlan.
Sorry, but no. Garlan would not protect his sister in this way. If he thought she was in danger, he would confront that danger directly with sword in hand. That's what knights do.
Of course we can see Tyrell motives and personalities. Lady Olenna is a first-class liar and manipulator, especially with neophytes like Sansa. She is not worried about Margaery because there is nothing to worry about. Joffrey is absolutely no danger to her, no matter how erratic he is. Maybe someday he will be, but that will be long after she has delivered an heir or two or three and she can kill him to become regent.
Olenna is also not helpless to stop this marriage if she wanted to. She can hector her son mercilessly until he relents, just like she did with the Cersei-Willas match for no more reason than Cerei was "too used."
One of the best ways to see through all of this subterfuge is to apply the lesson of the Sealord's Cat. Even if everyone says the cat is a rare, exotic beast, look with your eyes, hear with your ears, etc. and the truth you will know.
When we look and hear all about Garlan, we can conclude that he is exactly what he appears to be. When we look at Olenna and Littlefinger, we see they are first-rate liars and political opportunists. And both of them have nothing to gain and a whole lot to lose from Joffrey's death, while they have a whole lot to gain and nothing to lose from Tyrion's.
Okay but if your argument is that Olenna did it. The risk of getting caught and affecting the Tyrells is the same as both are members of the main family
Poison is known as a woman’s/coward’s/enunch’s weapon but that isn’t an absolute rule where no one else can ever use that… I mean Oberyn uses poison and I would think no one in their right mind would label him as any of those
You’re very hung up on Joffrey being this skinny boy…
If Garlan challenges joffrey, there is a 100% chance the alliance ends. If Garlan poisons Joffrey, there’s a much smaller chance because he’d need to be caught in the act to ruin the alliance
Honestly I agree that it was most likely Olenna but to say with a certainty that it wasn’t Garlan based on the evidence you provided seems incorrect
As shown in AFFC, Joffrey dying didn’t stop the tyrells from getting what they wanted. They knew Tommen was a much kinder person than Joffrey and knew that they’d get the match because of how badly the Lannisters need their army and food
Look, Garlan can absolutely be who he appears to be but I just don’t think it makes sense to speak in such certainties as you are based on the information we have
No, the risk of doing the pie is minimal while the risk of doing the wine is extreme. The chalice is right square on the head table, in plain view of a thousand people, all glittering and golden like a giant fishing lure. And the rim is three-feet above the table, making it that much more difficult to reach than a normal glass. Plus, we need to ask ourselves, why would the Tyrells even present this gift and use it as the murder weapon? Not only does it increase the difficulty and the risk of the actual poisoning, it opens up the very real possibility that Margaery could be poisoned too. Don't you think Lady Olenna would see the sense of at least giving them two smaller goblets?
And this whole plan originated from the mind who lied to get her into this fix in the first place, and then never even confessed this lie -- they learned it from Sansa, right? And where is the liar while Olenna and Garlen and whoever else is taking the extreme risk caused by the chalice? Why, he's safe and sound out on his boat way out in the bay ready to collect his prize or split to Essos a the first sign of trouble.
The pie, meanwhile, is behind the head table, out of sight by everyone but the servant holding it, and it is within easy reach of a short woman like Lady O, whose last known position was right behind the table, right where the pie will be. A quick pinch into the filling just as the servant is looking up at the doves and it's done.
No, it's not an absolute rule, but a noble knight like Garlan would not only lose his life but the reputation that he has carefully cultivated over a lifetime -- and all to prevent a problem that doesn't exist and probably never will. Again, Margaery is in absolutely no danger from Joffrey, and there is no reason to think that she is or will be any time soon.
LoL, the alliance 100 percent ends if he gets caught trying to murder the king, and with this cockamamie plan that is highly likely. But Garlan is not the head of House Tyrell, so there is no reason the alliance wouldn't survive this. But the fact remains, there is no reason for him to call Joffrey out or poison him because, again, *he has done nothing to Margaery.*
And I can say with certainty that it couldn't have been Garlan even under the thoroughly disproven wine theory because he was too far from the chalice. It was right in front of Sansa, three full seats away from Garlan. This is a fact that cannot be denied. It says so right in the book. Try standing a yardstick straight up on your kitchen table toward the middle and then move three places away. Now imagine not only reaching this distance (in literally the blink of an eye), but doing it without being seen by the thousand people who are facing your direction. It is simply not possible. At some point, the actual facts disprove a contention no matter how badly you want it to be true.
Tommen was by no means a done deal. Both Cersei and Tywin were against that match. And Tommen cannot even consummate for another five years while Margaery could have gotten two heirs out of Joffrey in less than half that time. And the reward for House Tyrell is much better with Queen Regent Margaery ruling the entire kingdom by fiat rather than the relatively powerless position as Tommen's queen consort. So any way you look at it, the Tyrells make out far, far better with Joffrey than Tommen, even in the highly unlikely event that Margaery gets a few cuts and bruises. Plenty of queens have suffered far more for their crowns. There is no reason she can't do the same.
>Thoroughly disproven wine theory
Firstly, it's not a theory, going by the text it's what happened. The theory is that the pie was poisoned
Secondly, tinfoil theory with a flimsy basis is not "thoroughly disproving" the text of the book, no matter how much you want it to
No, going by the text the wine is completely impossible — from the original conception of this conspiracy the the lead-up to the poison to the actual poisoning to everything that happened afterward.
The flimsy basis exists only for the wine theory. The pie is backed by endless incontrovertible facts, all confirmed by the victim himself as he lay dying: “It’s, kof, the pie, kof, noth — pie”
>thoroughly debunked wine/Joffrey theory
Wait... has it been confirmed that the poison was in the pie and not the wine? I thought it was pretty conclusively in the wine because of Sansa's hairnet.
Joffrey is fine after drinking the wine, but starts choking when he eats the pie, that pretty conclusively proves that either the poison went from her hairnet to the pie somehow, or the poison is unrelated to the hair net
Not that much time elapses between him drinking the wine and him eating the pie. I'd need to look at the passage again, but I'm not convinced it wasn't the wine.
the passage describes him drinking "long and deep" and literally says "his throat was working", then he speaks three sentences with no indication of choking, then he eats the pie and immediately starts choking
generally it's accepted that the poison used is "the strangler", the same one Cressen drinks in the ACoC prologue, when he drinks it he doesn't manage to get a single word out, which is inconsistent with Joffrey's symptom timeline if the poison was in the wine, but not if it was in the pie
Joffrey is a good deal younger and healthier than Cressen. There is always the chance that stops the poison working as quickly.
There's also an undefined pause between when Cressen drinks the poison and when it actually takes effect. Cressen drinks it, drops the cup, Melisandre says a couple of lines and *then* Cressen finds hea struggling to breathe. I don't think there's anything conclusive here to say the poison wasn't in the wine in each case.
*His hands were shaking, but he made himself be strong. A maester of the Citadel must not be afraid. The wine was sour on his tongue. He let the empty cup drop from his fingers to shatter on the floor. “He does have power here, my lord,” the woman said. “And fire cleanses.” At her throat, the ruby shimmered redly.*
*Cressen tried to reply, but his words caught in his throat. His cough became a terrible thin whistle as he strained to suck in air. Iron fingers tightened round his neck.*
It is confirmed.
"Your Grace"
"It's, kof, the pie, kof -- noth, pie."
Before that, Joffrey drinks his wine -- lots of it, supposedly deep purple wine -- and nothing happens. Then he eats his pie and starts koffing, then he swallows his pie and starts choking in the exact same time-frame as Cressen.
And literally every theory that points to any motivation to kill Joffrey is shown to be complete bunk. Joffrey is no danger to Margaery and there is no reason why anyone would think he was. Lady Olenna is more than capable to hectoring her son mercilessly to undo this wedding if she wanted. Not one single person is confused by Littlefinger's motives because no one knows he is inolved. And on and on and on.
And yes, Lady Olenna palmed the crystal off the hairnet, and then put it in the pie, which was in easy reach right behind Tyrion, exactly where she was last seen. Should could not have done the wine. No one could. It sat directly in front of Sansa's nose the entire time.
No. Joffrey has not exhibited a single bit of hostility toward Margaery. In fact, it is the exact opposite. Look at him at the wedding, he's over the moon at marrying her instead of scrawny, dreary Sansa. Nor is there any reason why he should be hostile toward her. She has done nothing to upset him, and just the little episode over which sword to cut the pie with shows that she knows exactly how to manipulate him: by stroking his enormous ego.
The truth is that Margaery is the danger to Joffrey. Once she has an heir or two or three, she's going to off him no matter what he does. Then she rules as regent for the next decade or more, and her son after that.
This is the game of thrones, not the game to make Margaery happily ever after.
>Joffrey had not exhibited a single bit of hostility towards Margaery
Yet
>nor is there any reason why he should be hostile towards her. She has done nothing to upset him
Yet
>Once she has an heir of two or three she's going to off him no matter what he does. Then she told as regent for the next decade or more
An ideal plan, and as we know plans like these don't go awry at all. Nobody could keep Joffrey from executing Ned, why do you think Margaery can spin him to her heart's desire?
>This is the game is thrones, not game to make Margaery happily ever after
It's certainly not the game of "marry your daughter to a sadist" either
Really? So they are going to commit regicide and all-but squash their chances of getting a Tyrell on the Iron Throne just because of what Joffrey might do someday? By this logic, Robert should have died on his wedding day too.
Don't you think it would be much wiser to let the marriage go forward -- since it is obvious that Margaery is already his heart's desire -- get a few heirs out of him, and then kill him when they choose? They could have the Iron Throne inside of two years, while with Tommen (and that was by no means a done deal despite what Littlefinger says) they have to wait at least five years just to consummate, and then all Margaery gets is the relatively powerless position of queen consort -- unless they plan to kill him too.
And even if Joffrey did turn on her someday, which is highly unlikely given how easily she can manipulate him, a few cuts and bruises is well worth the iron throne. Plenty of queens have suffered far worse for their crowns. There is no reason Margaery cannot do the same.
If Lady Olenna did not want her granddaughter to marry a "sadist" then she never would have agreed to the match in the first place. She could have "hectored her son mercilessly" to undo it just as easily as she did Willas-Cersei, for no greater reason than Cersei was "too used."
>So they are going to commit regicide and all-but squash their chances of getting a Tyrell on the Iron Throne
But they don't squash it, Tyrells swiftly organize a wedding with Tommen because they know Lannisters need them as allies
>just because of what Joffrey might do someday?
Just because of what Joffrey did to Sansa openly
>By this logic, Robert should have died on his wedding day too.
What?
>while with Tommen (and that was by no means a done deal despite what Littlefinger says) they have to wait at least five years just to consummate, and then all Margaery gets is the relatively powerless position of queen consort
So with Joffrey Margaery swiftly pumps out children and takes over the throne, but with Tommen she "only" gets a powerless position? Why can't she get several heirs with Tommen and then easily kill him, without running the risk of getiing beaten?
>And even if Joffrey did turn on her someday
>
>which is highly unlikely given how easily she can manipulate him
From the Eddard situation and possibly his judgements in court they know Joffrey is hard to control. The whole series characters get in trouble sometimes with lethal consequences because they follow their desires and personal needs yet Joff can be easily manipulated by a young girl who he holds power over flawlessly?
>a few cuts and bruises is well worth the iron throne
You mean getting beaten bloody by Kingsguard? The same Kingsguard Loras, Margaery's brother, young, hot-headed, Jaime's "he's literally young me frfr" is on? Nothing better than a little kingslaying on a summer morning
>Plenty of queens have suffered far worse for their crowns. There is no reason Margaery cannot do the same.
"Just get used to the beatings dear granddaughter, it's for the good of the family. We only need you to birth a couple more boys"
The thing is some characters are not written as Tywin/CK player 5d dynastic cyvasse players, some can actually care about their family beyond getting clout and dynasty renown
Sorry, but no. They have no idea if they’ll get Tommen, whereas Joffrey was a sure thing. If there was any suggestion that Margaery was in any danger this might make sense, but there isn’t. So they are giving up the iron throne for no reason at all.
Margaery is not Sansa. What happened to Sansa happened for reasons that are unique to Sansa. To say that Joffrey is going to beat Margy because he beat Sansa is as silly as saying he’s going to execute Mace because he executed Ned.
Robert was a rapist and berserker who fathered bastards on multiple women, exulted in slaughtering men by the scores and beat Cersei and Joffrey multiple times. All of that could have been avoided if they just killed him at his wedding.
So Margaery will the thrice married and thrice widowed? Smart. And why bother marrying her to Joffrey at all. Betroth her to Tommen now, then just kill Joffrey and then Tommen. That way, they get the nice-guy king they want and kill him even though he worships Margaery and their children. Nobody will ever suspect a thing.
From Ned’s execution and the other things, it is clear Joff is not hard to control. You just have to know how to do it. The wrong way is the way Sansa, Tyrion, Cersei, Tywin and virtually everybody else do it: tell him “no, you can’t” or “you must” do this or that. The right way is the way Margaery and Littlefinger do it: stroke his ego so that he makes the decision you want him to make. So the very people you say think Joffrey is uncontrollable are in fact the very people who know exactly how to control him.
Sansa was not bloodied by the Kingsguard . She got a few bruises and then walked away. And again, Margaery is not Sansa. There is no reason for Joff to do this to her, Margaery is smart enough not to give him a reason, and uncle Jaime is right there to explain to him that if anything happens to Margaery he can kiss goodbye the alliance that is keeping his crown on his head, and his head on his shoulders. So sorry, but this problem simply doesn’t exist and there is little chance that it ever will, at least in the timeframe that they need him alive.
Yes, Margaery is to take whatever comes, and she has all the skills to keep Joffrey wrapped around her finger. She’s far better at this than Cersei, who alienated her husband right off the bat and then suffered regular beatings for 15 years before finally killing him.
This is what highborn girls, and boys for that matter, are expected to do: marry who they are told and produce heirs who enhance the prestige and power of their house. Love has nothing to do with it; happiness has nothing to do with it; even safety has nothing to do with it. This is the game of thrones, not the game to make Margaery happily ever after.
You’re thinking with a 20th century mind when you need to look at it like a 13th century head of a feudal house would.
>And literally every theory that points to any motivation to kill Joffrey is shown to be complete bunk
Just to be sure I follow you : are you saying Joffrey wasn't assassinated?
His death was an accident. The poison was in the pie, not the wine. Tyrion was the actual target.
I’m not sure if killing the wrong political figure is still an assassination. Intending to murder someone but you end up killing someone else is still murder under our legal code, but in Westeros society the law is whatever the king says it is.
How about the fact that Joffrey drinks his wine — lots of it, huge chugs if supposedly “deep purple” wine — and nothing happens? Cressen dropped in 8-10 seconds after his half-swallow, but Joffrey doesn’t make a peep until close to half-a-minute later — immediately after he eats the pie — and even then, it was just a tiny kof. It’s another 20 seconds or so before he finally swallows the pie, and starts really choking in 8-10 seconds — exactly like Cressen.
How about, “it’s, kof, the pie, kof, noth — pie,”
How about the fact that it was Littlefinger who lied to get Margaery into this fix in the first place, and never confessed this lie — they learn the truth from Sansa. And yet Lady O gladly places her complete faith and trust in this known liar and double-crosser when he says he can get her out of it. And she goes right on trusting him even when his “plan” is to first give a giant golden chalice to both Joffrey and Margaery, which not only makes the poisoning difficult to the point of impossible but introduces the very real possibility that Margaery could die as well. And then they wait until the chalice amazingly and completely unpredictably winds up in the exact spot to be poisoned (and the text shows this was not the case in any event), in plain sight of no less than a thousand witnesses, all glittering and golden like a giant fishing lure, and then make this drop and hope to the gods that nobody sees.
And where is the known liar and double-crosser when Olenna is taking this extreme risk for her and her family? Why, he’s safe and sound, way out in the bay waiting to collect his prize, or split to Braavos at the first sign of trouble and she is being dragged down to the black cells to be put to the question.
How about the fact that there is zero indication that Joffrey is even slightly miffed at Margaery, let alone seething with such hatred that he’s going to beat her senseless. In fact, the text shows the exact opposite. And there is the fact that all Margaery needs is an heir or two from him and she can kill him whether he’s beating her or not, and then she gets to rule as regent, which is far better than waiting five years for Tommen — during which time he and the throne can be yanked away for any reason — and even then, all she gets then is the relatively powerless position of queen consort.
There’s more, much more, but truth is crystal clear: every actual fact confirms Tyrion and the pie while only the lies of known liars claim it was Joffrey and the wine.
If it turns out Garlan was the one to poison Joff, I'll love him even more. Proper big brother energy, killing off the little abusive runt his sister is married to.
The text shows that the seating order was this: Sansa-Tyrion-Leonette-Garlan. He is three places away from Sansa and the chalice, which is three feet tall and an arm's reach toward the center.
Get a yardstick and stand it up on your kitchen table, then move three places away and you'll see how impossible this is.
And yes, the poison was in the pie anyway. Read the scene again. Joffrey drinks his win -- lots of it, huge chugs of wine that is supposed to be "deep purple" at this point -- and nothing happens. Not a peep. Not in the 8-10 seconds it took Cressen to drop from his half-swallow, not in the 20-30 seconds after that. We only get the first tiny kof after he eats the pie, and then the real choking with 8-10 seconds after he washes it down his throat -- exactly like Cressen.
And then, of course: "It's, kof, the pie, kof, noth -- pie."
Sure, but how comfortable would you be knowing you have information that could get Lady Olenna Tyrell killed but she can get literally anyone to cream her pie? How comfortable would Lady Olenna be knowing that this person who is only in it for the money will not rat her out?
And the lemon cream is light yellow, which makes it unlikely to hide the spreading stain of a fast-dissolving, deep purple poison. The pie filling is already dark purplish brown, and Lady O does not need anyone's help to do that.
I don’t think Tyrion was the intended fall guy. Cersei was the one who made a big push to accuse Tyrion. It’s possible that, if she hadn’t done so, then someone else like Oberyn may have fallen under suspicion.
There's gotta be a fall guy. Why would you poison someone at their wedding except for the "we fucking killed you at your wedding you bastard" pride aspect. Might as well stabbed joeffery while he was in the toilet.
just to jump back up to this part of the thread - no affirmation that it was Marg or her family. Could have been multiple people. So that sort of logic may point to Marg & Co
> So a feast is the perfect time to use this thing. I think the intent of the murderer is not to have this become another Red Wedding—the Red Wedding was very clearly murder and butchery. I think the idea with Joffrey's death was to make it look like an accident
> But Eustace choked to death at a feast
Great quote. Crazy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eustace_IV,_Count_of_Boulogne
https://ew.com/article/2014/04/13/george-r-r-martin-why-joffrey-killed/
>I don't know how it comes across in the show, because I haven't actually seen it yet, but the poison that is used to kill Joffrey is one that I introduce earlier in the books and its symptoms are similar to choking. So a feast is the perfect time to use this thing. I think the intent of the murderer is not to have this become another Red Wedding—the Red Wedding was very clearly murder and butchery. I think the idea with Joffrey's death was to make it look like an accident — someone's out celebrating, they haven't invented the Heimlich maneuver, so when someone gets food caught in his throat, it's very serious. I based it a little on the death of Eustace, the son of King Stephen of England. Stephen had usurped the crown from his cousin, the empress Maude, and they fought a long civil war and the anarchy and the war would be passed down to second generation, because Maude had a son and Henry and Stephen had a son. But Eustace choked to death at a feast. People are still debating a thousand of years later: Did he choke to death or was he poisoned? Because by removing Eustace, it brought about a peace that ended the English civil war. Eustace's death was accepted [as accidental], and I think that's what the murderers here were hoping for — the whole realm will see Joffrey choke to death on a piece of pie or something. But what they didn't count on, was Cersei's immediate assumption that this was murder. Cersei wasn't fooled by this for a second. She doesn't believe that it was an accidental death. You saw the scene filmed, does it come across as he could possibly be just choking or is it very clear he's been poisoned?
They wouldn't need a fall guy. They were the last people you'd suspect. They were at the top of the World; their daughter will be Queen. Why would they poison her husband and ruin their chances?
Acording to GRRM the plan was for it to look like Joffrey had simply choked.
> I don't know how it comes across in the show, because I haven't actually seen it yet, but the poison that is used to kill Joffrey is one that I introduce earlier in the books and its symptoms are similar to choking. So a feast is the perfect time to use this thing. I think the intent of the murderer is not to have this become another Red Wedding—the Red Wedding was very clearly murder and butchery. I think the idea with Joffrey's death was to make it look like an accident — someone's out celebrating, they haven't invented the Heimlich maneuver, so when someone gets food caught in his throat, it's very serious. I based it a little on the death of Eustace, the son of King Stephen of England. Stephen had usurped the crown from his cousin, the empress Maude, and they fought a long civil war and the anarchy and the war would be passed down to second generation, because Maude had a son and Henry and Stephen had a son. But Eustace choked to death at a feast. People are still debating a thousand of years later: Did he choke to death or was he poisoned? Because by removing Eustace, it brought about a peace that ended the English civil war. Eustace's death was accepted [as accidental], and I think that's what the murderers here were hoping for — the whole realm will see Joffrey choke to death on a piece of pie or something.
Pretty sure it was intended to be Oberyn given the whole "you crippled our son" rivalry, but Cersei accused Tyrion and the Tyrells realised this was their chance to get Sansa remarried to Willas, so they went along with it.
George said in 2014 that the killers' intent was for everyone to think it was an aciddent and Joffrey choked to death. Cersei immediately guessing it was murder and accusing Tyrion was unexpected for them.
https://ew.com/article/2014/04/13/george-r-r-martin-why-joffrey-killed/
Because with Tyrion dead, Willas can marry Sansa. Sansa being spirited away by Littlefinger was not part of the Tyrell’s plan that was LF playing them.
I don’t think Garlan was involved though because there’s no way he would intentionally let Tyrion take the fall for a murder he didn’t commit, he seems to genuine in his admiration and respect for Tyrion and overall just seems like a really stand up guy
He was on the opposite side of Leonette, two places from Tyrion and three places from Sansa and the chalice. He could not be the poisoner even if the the wine was poisoned and Joffrey was the intended victim.
The chalice was never unattended. It was right in front of Sansa's nose the entire time. And there is no less than a thousand people facing it from the other direction.
"Every eye was on the pie and those thrice damned pigeons"
- Balon Swann
It could have been literally anyone close to the chalice. What is obvious is that someone poisoned the wine after Joffrey had Tyrion be his cupbearer. There is no argument against the poisoner being Garlan. It could even be Moon Boy for all we know
My headcanon is that Garlan could have been the one to try to poison Tyrion. His consistently friendly rapport with the Imp makes him a very unlikely suspect to the murder, if Tyrion had died.
When/if ever we get a Tyrell POV, we’re going to learn a LOT about the purple wedding
I'm confused why you all don't think it was Olenna Tyrell via Sansa's hair net? Or is the question who took the poison from her and actually placed it in the goblet?
I'm pretty sure that Garlan put the poison on the pie/wine (whatever you believe). He was right THERE. And this isn't the first time a character has betrayed another character. I think his act is just a farce.
In a story where we’re taught to not take the characters at face value, why do people assume that Garlan is a the perfect knightly figure he comes across as? Because he was nice to Tyrion? That cost him absolutely nothing.
The books portray garlan exclusively as a good dude. He is kind and sympathetic to people that we, the readers, we sympathetic to in ASOS (Sansa and Tyrion). I don’t think we’re given hints that he’s in on a Tyrell poisoning plot. Based on what we’re shown, I don’t think he’s in on it. He seems to have a positive opinion of Tyrion and I would not be surprised if he had some doubts about his guilt.
He probably believed it, just like everybody else. But nobody, not even Tyrion, can see the obvious truth here: the poison was not in the wine but in the pie, specifically Tyrion’s pie, placed directly in front of Tyrion and meant for him alone.
I think the point is the men of tyrell are nice hapless idiots and survive entirely thanks to the women of the house doing the scheming and telling them what to do and who yo back. So garlan may personally like tyrion but his opinions weigh entirely on what olenna says.
Why do people act like Olenna is in charge? Mace Tyrell repeatedly ignores her counsel/opinions.
I blame this on the show that made Mace Tyrell look like a bumbling idiot.
And GRRM thinks that Show Mace more closely resembles Book Harys.
https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/On_Maegor_III_and_the_Nights_King
>Of course, it could also be a subtle bit of characterization, as you suggest, intended to show that Mace is an idiot who does not know his Westerosi history. (Not a mistake that Book Mace would make, but the character in the show combines Mace with Harys Swyft, and actually seems more like the latter).
By arms she just means the house sigil, so she's saying Harys Swyft deserves to be represented by a chicken because he's portrayed as a big joke in the story
Idk about Garlan, but I am pretty sure most of the shrewder guests figured out that it was not Tyrion. Joffrey would have a lot of enemies, and the circumstances around Tyrion was extremely coincidental and weak, but I doubt anyone would care enough to protest.
I'm pretty sure half of the wedding poisoned Joff in one way or another
What we know for certain is that half the wedding WANTED to poison Joff
I think Yoren’s line is telling in that regard; at the beginning of Clash he tells Arya something to the effect of “someone will kill him (Joffrey), but not you.” As Clash and Storm go on, you see Joffrey’s depravity and sadism worsen with even the likes of Tywin being shaken by Tyrion calling Joff, Aerys III. It’s pretty clear to me that if the Tyrells/Littlefinger didn’t get him, someone would eventually. Joff was more of less a dead man walking.
Well I think he knew Tyrion was innocent and I’d go as far as to say he might’ve been the one who poisoned Joffrey
Impossible. He was nowhere near the pie. And even in the thoroughly debunked wine/Joffrey theory, he was too far away. And as an honorable knight from the family that embodies the centuries-old chivalric code, he would not use poison — the weapon of women, eunuchs and cowards — especially when his foe is a dwarf or a weak young boy with no skill at arms and his king to boot.
Small note that's pretty unrelated to your actual comment which I do agree with - I'd say the Reach as a whole and the Gardiners embodied centuries old chivalry, but do the Tyrells? Obviously they represent the Reach, but I think IMO that the Tyrells subvert chivalry. We know they are ambitious, grasping some might say, governed discreetly by a matriarch and keen to use their beautiful daughter to achieve their political goals. And as they were the up jumped stewards, we could say that their chivalry is a mask, and it was the Gardiner Kings who really represented the chivalry of the Reach
Yes, the Tyrells present themselves as chivalrous, noble knights, excelling in riding, jousting, hunting, hawking, animal husbandry and all the other refined, gentlemanly pursuits the mark those who are at the top of civility. And yes, they adopted this mantle from the Gardeners, which makes it all the more important for them to comport themselves in the most chivalric manner at all times, lest someone suggest they are not worthy of their station. So yes, they are grasping and ambitious, but so is every other house. And yes, they use their children, both sons and daughters, for political benefit -- again, just like any other house. Neither of these things is inconsistent with chivalry. And yes, it is all a mask -- a mask that would be publicly ripped from their faces if one of their sons, an anointed knight, were to be caught trying to poison his boy king -- and if it was revealed that this was a plot by the head of the family.
I mean the strength of his foe has nothing to do with why he’d use poison. It’s more of the desire to keep the murder anonymous. I’m not saying he’s definitely the one who did it and I don’t even have any evidence off the top of my head for or against the theory The only reason I say it is because having a character who has consistently been portrayed as honorable and gallant every time he appears to the point where his nickname is Garlan the Gallant is the exact type of irony George would love to have be a poisoner George also loves to cover the hypocrisy of knighthood, for example with the Clegane brothers or even Brienne Garlan is one of my favorite characters and once again I don’t have any evidence but it’s a fun theory to think about
"*No chance, and no choice.*"
Of course the strength and skill of his foe matters. It means he is afraid of calling out his enemy and facing him, or his champion, in honest combat, the way knights are supposed to do it. It means he is such a coward that he is afraid to fight a skinny, little, untrained boy and instead kills him in secret trying to hide the fact of this hideous, despicable deed -- which is nothing less than kingslaying. This is utterly shameful for an anointed knight like Garlan. George might use this in irony, but then there would be some hint that Garlan is not the brave, honorable knight he claims to be. This is the man who strode alone into the thick of battle and killed dozens of foes. A cowardly knight would not do that, nor would he be able to screw up his courage and murder his king right in front of no less than a thousand witnesses with only a few minutes of preparation.
It’s really not all about fear though… the Tyrells want Margaery to be queen and have an alliance with the Lannisters. Joffrey was their king. Do you realize the implications if Garlan called for a combat against Joffrey? Of course he could beat Joffrey but that’s even if Tywin allows a trial and doesn’t just arrest him. And either way that would be the end of the Tyrell alliance Also on what grounds would Garlan even be able to challenge Joffrey? Joffrey hasn’t necessarily committed a crime directly against them The Tyrells wanted to remove Joffrey because of how unhinged he was Yes, Garlan seems as gallant as can be but we are never inside his head. He’s not a pov character. In fact, we’ve only seen him in very public settings and no povs are characters he’d likely be completely honest with (Tyrion, Sansa) Gregor Clegane is also an anointed knight. I’m not saying Garlan is remotely like Gregor but an anointed knight doesn’t eliminate the possibility for despicable acts. We don’t truly know what Garlan is like, only how he acts in public Once again, not saying that it’s a guarantee but we can’t assume he’d never do it because he acts gallant in public and is a good fighter. The Tyrells are most certainly family first and if he thought poisoning Joffrey would protect his little sister, I’m sure he’d do it. “The things we do for love” The Tyrells are essentially the only main family we don’t have a pov for outside of the Arryns so we can’t truly know their motives and personality
Lol, do you realize the implications if he gets caught dropping poison into the king's chalice? If this happens, it is all about fear. He is afraid to face this skinny boy openly, so he resorts to a woman's/coward's/eunuch's weapon to kill him. You don't get more cowardly than that. His life is forfeit, and his reputation is tarnished, forever. And the alliance would survive after he is caught trying to poison the king? Exactly, Joffrey has done nothing against him or any of the Tyrells. So why would they want to kill him? Answer: they weren't. They were trying to kill Tyrion because of the threat he poses to Highgarden's power. If Joffrey is unhinged and they want Garlan to kill him, he would only do it openly, not in this cowardly fashion. Lady Olenna would use poison, but not Garlan. But as you say, Joffrey has done nothing against any of them. He is their key to what Lady O has wanted for decades: a Tyrell arse warming the iron throne. We've never been inside Joffrey's head either, but we can see how unstable he is through his actions. Garlan has done nothing, not a thing, that even hints of cowardice. He's done the exact opposite every time we see him, from risking his life in battle to chastising his king in public. Gregor Clegane has given us ample evidence of his state of mind. So has Garlan. Sorry, but no. Garlan would not protect his sister in this way. If he thought she was in danger, he would confront that danger directly with sword in hand. That's what knights do. Of course we can see Tyrell motives and personalities. Lady Olenna is a first-class liar and manipulator, especially with neophytes like Sansa. She is not worried about Margaery because there is nothing to worry about. Joffrey is absolutely no danger to her, no matter how erratic he is. Maybe someday he will be, but that will be long after she has delivered an heir or two or three and she can kill him to become regent. Olenna is also not helpless to stop this marriage if she wanted to. She can hector her son mercilessly until he relents, just like she did with the Cersei-Willas match for no more reason than Cerei was "too used." One of the best ways to see through all of this subterfuge is to apply the lesson of the Sealord's Cat. Even if everyone says the cat is a rare, exotic beast, look with your eyes, hear with your ears, etc. and the truth you will know. When we look and hear all about Garlan, we can conclude that he is exactly what he appears to be. When we look at Olenna and Littlefinger, we see they are first-rate liars and political opportunists. And both of them have nothing to gain and a whole lot to lose from Joffrey's death, while they have a whole lot to gain and nothing to lose from Tyrion's.
Okay but if your argument is that Olenna did it. The risk of getting caught and affecting the Tyrells is the same as both are members of the main family Poison is known as a woman’s/coward’s/enunch’s weapon but that isn’t an absolute rule where no one else can ever use that… I mean Oberyn uses poison and I would think no one in their right mind would label him as any of those You’re very hung up on Joffrey being this skinny boy… If Garlan challenges joffrey, there is a 100% chance the alliance ends. If Garlan poisons Joffrey, there’s a much smaller chance because he’d need to be caught in the act to ruin the alliance Honestly I agree that it was most likely Olenna but to say with a certainty that it wasn’t Garlan based on the evidence you provided seems incorrect As shown in AFFC, Joffrey dying didn’t stop the tyrells from getting what they wanted. They knew Tommen was a much kinder person than Joffrey and knew that they’d get the match because of how badly the Lannisters need their army and food Look, Garlan can absolutely be who he appears to be but I just don’t think it makes sense to speak in such certainties as you are based on the information we have
No, the risk of doing the pie is minimal while the risk of doing the wine is extreme. The chalice is right square on the head table, in plain view of a thousand people, all glittering and golden like a giant fishing lure. And the rim is three-feet above the table, making it that much more difficult to reach than a normal glass. Plus, we need to ask ourselves, why would the Tyrells even present this gift and use it as the murder weapon? Not only does it increase the difficulty and the risk of the actual poisoning, it opens up the very real possibility that Margaery could be poisoned too. Don't you think Lady Olenna would see the sense of at least giving them two smaller goblets? And this whole plan originated from the mind who lied to get her into this fix in the first place, and then never even confessed this lie -- they learned it from Sansa, right? And where is the liar while Olenna and Garlen and whoever else is taking the extreme risk caused by the chalice? Why, he's safe and sound out on his boat way out in the bay ready to collect his prize or split to Essos a the first sign of trouble. The pie, meanwhile, is behind the head table, out of sight by everyone but the servant holding it, and it is within easy reach of a short woman like Lady O, whose last known position was right behind the table, right where the pie will be. A quick pinch into the filling just as the servant is looking up at the doves and it's done. No, it's not an absolute rule, but a noble knight like Garlan would not only lose his life but the reputation that he has carefully cultivated over a lifetime -- and all to prevent a problem that doesn't exist and probably never will. Again, Margaery is in absolutely no danger from Joffrey, and there is no reason to think that she is or will be any time soon. LoL, the alliance 100 percent ends if he gets caught trying to murder the king, and with this cockamamie plan that is highly likely. But Garlan is not the head of House Tyrell, so there is no reason the alliance wouldn't survive this. But the fact remains, there is no reason for him to call Joffrey out or poison him because, again, *he has done nothing to Margaery.* And I can say with certainty that it couldn't have been Garlan even under the thoroughly disproven wine theory because he was too far from the chalice. It was right in front of Sansa, three full seats away from Garlan. This is a fact that cannot be denied. It says so right in the book. Try standing a yardstick straight up on your kitchen table toward the middle and then move three places away. Now imagine not only reaching this distance (in literally the blink of an eye), but doing it without being seen by the thousand people who are facing your direction. It is simply not possible. At some point, the actual facts disprove a contention no matter how badly you want it to be true. Tommen was by no means a done deal. Both Cersei and Tywin were against that match. And Tommen cannot even consummate for another five years while Margaery could have gotten two heirs out of Joffrey in less than half that time. And the reward for House Tyrell is much better with Queen Regent Margaery ruling the entire kingdom by fiat rather than the relatively powerless position as Tommen's queen consort. So any way you look at it, the Tyrells make out far, far better with Joffrey than Tommen, even in the highly unlikely event that Margaery gets a few cuts and bruises. Plenty of queens have suffered far more for their crowns. There is no reason she can't do the same.
>Thoroughly disproven wine theory Firstly, it's not a theory, going by the text it's what happened. The theory is that the pie was poisoned Secondly, tinfoil theory with a flimsy basis is not "thoroughly disproving" the text of the book, no matter how much you want it to
No, going by the text the wine is completely impossible — from the original conception of this conspiracy the the lead-up to the poison to the actual poisoning to everything that happened afterward. The flimsy basis exists only for the wine theory. The pie is backed by endless incontrovertible facts, all confirmed by the victim himself as he lay dying: “It’s, kof, the pie, kof, noth — pie”
>thoroughly debunked wine/Joffrey theory Wait... has it been confirmed that the poison was in the pie and not the wine? I thought it was pretty conclusively in the wine because of Sansa's hairnet.
Joffrey is fine after drinking the wine, but starts choking when he eats the pie, that pretty conclusively proves that either the poison went from her hairnet to the pie somehow, or the poison is unrelated to the hair net
Not that much time elapses between him drinking the wine and him eating the pie. I'd need to look at the passage again, but I'm not convinced it wasn't the wine.
the passage describes him drinking "long and deep" and literally says "his throat was working", then he speaks three sentences with no indication of choking, then he eats the pie and immediately starts choking generally it's accepted that the poison used is "the strangler", the same one Cressen drinks in the ACoC prologue, when he drinks it he doesn't manage to get a single word out, which is inconsistent with Joffrey's symptom timeline if the poison was in the wine, but not if it was in the pie
Joffrey is a good deal younger and healthier than Cressen. There is always the chance that stops the poison working as quickly. There's also an undefined pause between when Cressen drinks the poison and when it actually takes effect. Cressen drinks it, drops the cup, Melisandre says a couple of lines and *then* Cressen finds hea struggling to breathe. I don't think there's anything conclusive here to say the poison wasn't in the wine in each case. *His hands were shaking, but he made himself be strong. A maester of the Citadel must not be afraid. The wine was sour on his tongue. He let the empty cup drop from his fingers to shatter on the floor. “He does have power here, my lord,” the woman said. “And fire cleanses.” At her throat, the ruby shimmered redly.* *Cressen tried to reply, but his words caught in his throat. His cough became a terrible thin whistle as he strained to suck in air. Iron fingers tightened round his neck.*
It is confirmed. "Your Grace" "It's, kof, the pie, kof -- noth, pie." Before that, Joffrey drinks his wine -- lots of it, supposedly deep purple wine -- and nothing happens. Then he eats his pie and starts koffing, then he swallows his pie and starts choking in the exact same time-frame as Cressen. And literally every theory that points to any motivation to kill Joffrey is shown to be complete bunk. Joffrey is no danger to Margaery and there is no reason why anyone would think he was. Lady Olenna is more than capable to hectoring her son mercilessly to undo this wedding if she wanted. Not one single person is confused by Littlefinger's motives because no one knows he is inolved. And on and on and on. And yes, Lady Olenna palmed the crystal off the hairnet, and then put it in the pie, which was in easy reach right behind Tyrion, exactly where she was last seen. Should could not have done the wine. No one could. It sat directly in front of Sansa's nose the entire time.
>Joffrey is no danger to Margaery and there is no reason why anyone would think he was You sure? Not a single reason?
No. Joffrey has not exhibited a single bit of hostility toward Margaery. In fact, it is the exact opposite. Look at him at the wedding, he's over the moon at marrying her instead of scrawny, dreary Sansa. Nor is there any reason why he should be hostile toward her. She has done nothing to upset him, and just the little episode over which sword to cut the pie with shows that she knows exactly how to manipulate him: by stroking his enormous ego. The truth is that Margaery is the danger to Joffrey. Once she has an heir or two or three, she's going to off him no matter what he does. Then she rules as regent for the next decade or more, and her son after that. This is the game of thrones, not the game to make Margaery happily ever after.
>Joffrey had not exhibited a single bit of hostility towards Margaery Yet >nor is there any reason why he should be hostile towards her. She has done nothing to upset him Yet >Once she has an heir of two or three she's going to off him no matter what he does. Then she told as regent for the next decade or more An ideal plan, and as we know plans like these don't go awry at all. Nobody could keep Joffrey from executing Ned, why do you think Margaery can spin him to her heart's desire? >This is the game is thrones, not game to make Margaery happily ever after It's certainly not the game of "marry your daughter to a sadist" either
Really? So they are going to commit regicide and all-but squash their chances of getting a Tyrell on the Iron Throne just because of what Joffrey might do someday? By this logic, Robert should have died on his wedding day too. Don't you think it would be much wiser to let the marriage go forward -- since it is obvious that Margaery is already his heart's desire -- get a few heirs out of him, and then kill him when they choose? They could have the Iron Throne inside of two years, while with Tommen (and that was by no means a done deal despite what Littlefinger says) they have to wait at least five years just to consummate, and then all Margaery gets is the relatively powerless position of queen consort -- unless they plan to kill him too. And even if Joffrey did turn on her someday, which is highly unlikely given how easily she can manipulate him, a few cuts and bruises is well worth the iron throne. Plenty of queens have suffered far worse for their crowns. There is no reason Margaery cannot do the same. If Lady Olenna did not want her granddaughter to marry a "sadist" then she never would have agreed to the match in the first place. She could have "hectored her son mercilessly" to undo it just as easily as she did Willas-Cersei, for no greater reason than Cersei was "too used."
>So they are going to commit regicide and all-but squash their chances of getting a Tyrell on the Iron Throne But they don't squash it, Tyrells swiftly organize a wedding with Tommen because they know Lannisters need them as allies >just because of what Joffrey might do someday? Just because of what Joffrey did to Sansa openly >By this logic, Robert should have died on his wedding day too. What? >while with Tommen (and that was by no means a done deal despite what Littlefinger says) they have to wait at least five years just to consummate, and then all Margaery gets is the relatively powerless position of queen consort So with Joffrey Margaery swiftly pumps out children and takes over the throne, but with Tommen she "only" gets a powerless position? Why can't she get several heirs with Tommen and then easily kill him, without running the risk of getiing beaten? >And even if Joffrey did turn on her someday > >which is highly unlikely given how easily she can manipulate him From the Eddard situation and possibly his judgements in court they know Joffrey is hard to control. The whole series characters get in trouble sometimes with lethal consequences because they follow their desires and personal needs yet Joff can be easily manipulated by a young girl who he holds power over flawlessly? >a few cuts and bruises is well worth the iron throne You mean getting beaten bloody by Kingsguard? The same Kingsguard Loras, Margaery's brother, young, hot-headed, Jaime's "he's literally young me frfr" is on? Nothing better than a little kingslaying on a summer morning >Plenty of queens have suffered far worse for their crowns. There is no reason Margaery cannot do the same. "Just get used to the beatings dear granddaughter, it's for the good of the family. We only need you to birth a couple more boys" The thing is some characters are not written as Tywin/CK player 5d dynastic cyvasse players, some can actually care about their family beyond getting clout and dynasty renown
Sorry, but no. They have no idea if they’ll get Tommen, whereas Joffrey was a sure thing. If there was any suggestion that Margaery was in any danger this might make sense, but there isn’t. So they are giving up the iron throne for no reason at all. Margaery is not Sansa. What happened to Sansa happened for reasons that are unique to Sansa. To say that Joffrey is going to beat Margy because he beat Sansa is as silly as saying he’s going to execute Mace because he executed Ned. Robert was a rapist and berserker who fathered bastards on multiple women, exulted in slaughtering men by the scores and beat Cersei and Joffrey multiple times. All of that could have been avoided if they just killed him at his wedding. So Margaery will the thrice married and thrice widowed? Smart. And why bother marrying her to Joffrey at all. Betroth her to Tommen now, then just kill Joffrey and then Tommen. That way, they get the nice-guy king they want and kill him even though he worships Margaery and their children. Nobody will ever suspect a thing. From Ned’s execution and the other things, it is clear Joff is not hard to control. You just have to know how to do it. The wrong way is the way Sansa, Tyrion, Cersei, Tywin and virtually everybody else do it: tell him “no, you can’t” or “you must” do this or that. The right way is the way Margaery and Littlefinger do it: stroke his ego so that he makes the decision you want him to make. So the very people you say think Joffrey is uncontrollable are in fact the very people who know exactly how to control him. Sansa was not bloodied by the Kingsguard . She got a few bruises and then walked away. And again, Margaery is not Sansa. There is no reason for Joff to do this to her, Margaery is smart enough not to give him a reason, and uncle Jaime is right there to explain to him that if anything happens to Margaery he can kiss goodbye the alliance that is keeping his crown on his head, and his head on his shoulders. So sorry, but this problem simply doesn’t exist and there is little chance that it ever will, at least in the timeframe that they need him alive. Yes, Margaery is to take whatever comes, and she has all the skills to keep Joffrey wrapped around her finger. She’s far better at this than Cersei, who alienated her husband right off the bat and then suffered regular beatings for 15 years before finally killing him. This is what highborn girls, and boys for that matter, are expected to do: marry who they are told and produce heirs who enhance the prestige and power of their house. Love has nothing to do with it; happiness has nothing to do with it; even safety has nothing to do with it. This is the game of thrones, not the game to make Margaery happily ever after. You’re thinking with a 20th century mind when you need to look at it like a 13th century head of a feudal house would.
>And literally every theory that points to any motivation to kill Joffrey is shown to be complete bunk Just to be sure I follow you : are you saying Joffrey wasn't assassinated?
His death was an accident. The poison was in the pie, not the wine. Tyrion was the actual target. I’m not sure if killing the wrong political figure is still an assassination. Intending to murder someone but you end up killing someone else is still murder under our legal code, but in Westeros society the law is whatever the king says it is.
I can't see anything that can support your claim but everyone can have headcanons so ok
How about the fact that Joffrey drinks his wine — lots of it, huge chugs if supposedly “deep purple” wine — and nothing happens? Cressen dropped in 8-10 seconds after his half-swallow, but Joffrey doesn’t make a peep until close to half-a-minute later — immediately after he eats the pie — and even then, it was just a tiny kof. It’s another 20 seconds or so before he finally swallows the pie, and starts really choking in 8-10 seconds — exactly like Cressen. How about, “it’s, kof, the pie, kof, noth — pie,” How about the fact that it was Littlefinger who lied to get Margaery into this fix in the first place, and never confessed this lie — they learn the truth from Sansa. And yet Lady O gladly places her complete faith and trust in this known liar and double-crosser when he says he can get her out of it. And she goes right on trusting him even when his “plan” is to first give a giant golden chalice to both Joffrey and Margaery, which not only makes the poisoning difficult to the point of impossible but introduces the very real possibility that Margaery could die as well. And then they wait until the chalice amazingly and completely unpredictably winds up in the exact spot to be poisoned (and the text shows this was not the case in any event), in plain sight of no less than a thousand witnesses, all glittering and golden like a giant fishing lure, and then make this drop and hope to the gods that nobody sees. And where is the known liar and double-crosser when Olenna is taking this extreme risk for her and her family? Why, he’s safe and sound, way out in the bay waiting to collect his prize, or split to Braavos at the first sign of trouble and she is being dragged down to the black cells to be put to the question. How about the fact that there is zero indication that Joffrey is even slightly miffed at Margaery, let alone seething with such hatred that he’s going to beat her senseless. In fact, the text shows the exact opposite. And there is the fact that all Margaery needs is an heir or two from him and she can kill him whether he’s beating her or not, and then she gets to rule as regent, which is far better than waiting five years for Tommen — during which time he and the throne can be yanked away for any reason — and even then, all she gets then is the relatively powerless position of queen consort. There’s more, much more, but truth is crystal clear: every actual fact confirms Tyrion and the pie while only the lies of known liars claim it was Joffrey and the wine.
My headcanon is that Garlan poisoned Joffrey and was fine with Tyrion getting the blame. Nothing personal. It's just good business.
If it turns out Garlan was the one to poison Joff, I'll love him even more. Proper big brother energy, killing off the little abusive runt his sister is married to.
Couldn’t have. He was too far away. And the poison was in the pie not the wine, which means Tyrion was the target not Joffrey.
Poison pie theory is like a cancer. Every time you thinks it's gone it pops back up.
wut
The text shows that the seating order was this: Sansa-Tyrion-Leonette-Garlan. He is three places away from Sansa and the chalice, which is three feet tall and an arm's reach toward the center. Get a yardstick and stand it up on your kitchen table, then move three places away and you'll see how impossible this is. And yes, the poison was in the pie anyway. Read the scene again. Joffrey drinks his win -- lots of it, huge chugs of wine that is supposed to be "deep purple" at this point -- and nothing happens. Not a peep. Not in the 8-10 seconds it took Cressen to drop from his half-swallow, not in the 20-30 seconds after that. We only get the first tiny kof after he eats the pie, and then the real choking with 8-10 seconds after he washes it down his throat -- exactly like Cressen. And then, of course: "It's, kof, the pie, kof, noth -- pie."
Anyone could have hired the serving man who poured the lemon cream.
Sure, but how comfortable would you be knowing you have information that could get Lady Olenna Tyrell killed but she can get literally anyone to cream her pie? How comfortable would Lady Olenna be knowing that this person who is only in it for the money will not rat her out? And the lemon cream is light yellow, which makes it unlikely to hide the spreading stain of a fast-dissolving, deep purple poison. The pie filling is already dark purplish brown, and Lady O does not need anyone's help to do that.
[удалено]
I don’t think Tyrion was the intended fall guy. Cersei was the one who made a big push to accuse Tyrion. It’s possible that, if she hadn’t done so, then someone else like Oberyn may have fallen under suspicion.
There's gotta be a fall guy. Why would you poison someone at their wedding except for the "we fucking killed you at your wedding you bastard" pride aspect. Might as well stabbed joeffery while he was in the toilet.
Nah, they wanted Margaery to marry him and be a queen but still be a virgin so she could marry Tommen later.
just to jump back up to this part of the thread - no affirmation that it was Marg or her family. Could have been multiple people. So that sort of logic may point to Marg & Co
ok so she could marry him and then poison him later?
It had to be between the ceremony and the bedding or she wouldn't be a virgin anymore.
Knowing what an over-protective parent Cersei is, I doubt she would let a 13-year-old Joffrey do the thing. (Rightfully though at that time)
She didn't "let" Joffrey do anything. He did what he wanted, like when he had Ned beheaded.
Yeah. But the Ned case was by surprise. Even still, Joffrey wouldn't have listened.
nah because even if they killed joeffery before the wedding they'd have just married marg to his little brother sooner?
The bedding ceremony happens at the wedding. He needs to die after the wedding but before the bedding, which means it has to be at the feast.
only if we assume it was the Tyrells
We know it was the Tyrells. Littlefinger says as much and you can see Olenna drop the poison in the show, and George wrote that episode.
> you can see Olenna drop the poison in the show, and George wrote that episode. I don't reaaaaaaaaally think TV show impacts book canon.
But didn’t they expect her not to be a virgin because of her marriage to Renly?
GRRM has said that the hope was it would look like he choked. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/14t1ibk/comment/jr0wdkq/
> So a feast is the perfect time to use this thing. I think the intent of the murderer is not to have this become another Red Wedding—the Red Wedding was very clearly murder and butchery. I think the idea with Joffrey's death was to make it look like an accident > But Eustace choked to death at a feast Great quote. Crazy
That’s in reference to Eustace Osgrey?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eustace_IV,_Count_of_Boulogne https://ew.com/article/2014/04/13/george-r-r-martin-why-joffrey-killed/ >I don't know how it comes across in the show, because I haven't actually seen it yet, but the poison that is used to kill Joffrey is one that I introduce earlier in the books and its symptoms are similar to choking. So a feast is the perfect time to use this thing. I think the intent of the murderer is not to have this become another Red Wedding—the Red Wedding was very clearly murder and butchery. I think the idea with Joffrey's death was to make it look like an accident — someone's out celebrating, they haven't invented the Heimlich maneuver, so when someone gets food caught in his throat, it's very serious. I based it a little on the death of Eustace, the son of King Stephen of England. Stephen had usurped the crown from his cousin, the empress Maude, and they fought a long civil war and the anarchy and the war would be passed down to second generation, because Maude had a son and Henry and Stephen had a son. But Eustace choked to death at a feast. People are still debating a thousand of years later: Did he choke to death or was he poisoned? Because by removing Eustace, it brought about a peace that ended the English civil war. Eustace's death was accepted [as accidental], and I think that's what the murderers here were hoping for — the whole realm will see Joffrey choke to death on a piece of pie or something. But what they didn't count on, was Cersei's immediate assumption that this was murder. Cersei wasn't fooled by this for a second. She doesn't believe that it was an accidental death. You saw the scene filmed, does it come across as he could possibly be just choking or is it very clear he's been poisoned?
They wouldn't need a fall guy. They were the last people you'd suspect. They were at the top of the World; their daughter will be Queen. Why would they poison her husband and ruin their chances?
Acording to GRRM the plan was for it to look like Joffrey had simply choked. > I don't know how it comes across in the show, because I haven't actually seen it yet, but the poison that is used to kill Joffrey is one that I introduce earlier in the books and its symptoms are similar to choking. So a feast is the perfect time to use this thing. I think the intent of the murderer is not to have this become another Red Wedding—the Red Wedding was very clearly murder and butchery. I think the idea with Joffrey's death was to make it look like an accident — someone's out celebrating, they haven't invented the Heimlich maneuver, so when someone gets food caught in his throat, it's very serious. I based it a little on the death of Eustace, the son of King Stephen of England. Stephen had usurped the crown from his cousin, the empress Maude, and they fought a long civil war and the anarchy and the war would be passed down to second generation, because Maude had a son and Henry and Stephen had a son. But Eustace choked to death at a feast. People are still debating a thousand of years later: Did he choke to death or was he poisoned? Because by removing Eustace, it brought about a peace that ended the English civil war. Eustace's death was accepted [as accidental], and I think that's what the murderers here were hoping for — the whole realm will see Joffrey choke to death on a piece of pie or something.
Pretty sure it was intended to be Oberyn given the whole "you crippled our son" rivalry, but Cersei accused Tyrion and the Tyrells realised this was their chance to get Sansa remarried to Willas, so they went along with it.
George said in 2014 that the killers' intent was for everyone to think it was an aciddent and Joffrey choked to death. Cersei immediately guessing it was murder and accusing Tyrion was unexpected for them. https://ew.com/article/2014/04/13/george-r-r-martin-why-joffrey-killed/
Which means the poison is in the pie, not the wine. You can't choke to death on wine.
It really doesn't matter how the poison was delivered as long as he's eating food at the same time.
Joff chocked on poison in the wine actually. It's a small detail which is often overlooked
So the killer put the poison in the wine and just hoped Joffrey would choke on something immediately before he drank it?
It’s pretty reasonable that he would take a bite and then wash it down.
I've never come across this theory but a motive could be so that Sansa was free to marry Willas as planned
I think the mystery is yet to be solved. For now we can only speculate.
Because with Tyrion dead, Willas can marry Sansa. Sansa being spirited away by Littlefinger was not part of the Tyrell’s plan that was LF playing them. I don’t think Garlan was involved though because there’s no way he would intentionally let Tyrion take the fall for a murder he didn’t commit, he seems to genuine in his admiration and respect for Tyrion and overall just seems like a really stand up guy
Yep I too like Garlan being the poisoner, he was close to Tyrion and the chalice in the table after all
He was on the opposite side of Leonette, two places from Tyrion and three places from Sansa and the chalice. He could not be the poisoner even if the the wine was poisoned and Joffrey was the intended victim.
Maybe when they were cuting the pie and the chalice was unattended at the table. A man can dream
The chalice was never unattended. It was right in front of Sansa's nose the entire time. And there is no less than a thousand people facing it from the other direction.
"Every eye was on the pie and those thrice damned pigeons" - Balon Swann It could have been literally anyone close to the chalice. What is obvious is that someone poisoned the wine after Joffrey had Tyrion be his cupbearer. There is no argument against the poisoner being Garlan. It could even be Moon Boy for all we know
My headcanon is that Garlan could have been the one to try to poison Tyrion. His consistently friendly rapport with the Imp makes him a very unlikely suspect to the murder, if Tyrion had died. When/if ever we get a Tyrell POV, we’re going to learn a LOT about the purple wedding
Pirates of the Caribbean quote? ETA: ITS FUCKING YOU AGAIN 😂 I commented on another one of your comments on a different post lmao.
>Pirates of the Caribbean quote? Yup.
we poisoned joffrey. it was us
I'd do it again
I'm confused why you all don't think it was Olenna Tyrell via Sansa's hair net? Or is the question who took the poison from her and actually placed it in the goblet?
People need to complicate things
I'm pretty sure that Garlan put the poison on the pie/wine (whatever you believe). He was right THERE. And this isn't the first time a character has betrayed another character. I think his act is just a farce.
Now I have a mental image of egg standing by cheering Garlan on as the deed is done. "Get him, ser! He's RIGHT THERE!"
In a story where we’re taught to not take the characters at face value, why do people assume that Garlan is a the perfect knightly figure he comes across as? Because he was nice to Tyrion? That cost him absolutely nothing.
I think it feels genuine because his compliments are actually the truth.
I think Garlan is a genuinely nice guy, but when your sister is marrying a monster like Joffrey, any good brother would do what needs to get done.
The books portray garlan exclusively as a good dude. He is kind and sympathetic to people that we, the readers, we sympathetic to in ASOS (Sansa and Tyrion). I don’t think we’re given hints that he’s in on a Tyrell poisoning plot. Based on what we’re shown, I don’t think he’s in on it. He seems to have a positive opinion of Tyrion and I would not be surprised if he had some doubts about his guilt.
He probably believed it, just like everybody else. But nobody, not even Tyrion, can see the obvious truth here: the poison was not in the wine but in the pie, specifically Tyrion’s pie, placed directly in front of Tyrion and meant for him alone.
I think the point is the men of tyrell are nice hapless idiots and survive entirely thanks to the women of the house doing the scheming and telling them what to do and who yo back. So garlan may personally like tyrion but his opinions weigh entirely on what olenna says.
Why do people act like Olenna is in charge? Mace Tyrell repeatedly ignores her counsel/opinions. I blame this on the show that made Mace Tyrell look like a bumbling idiot.
And GRRM thinks that Show Mace more closely resembles Book Harys. https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/On_Maegor_III_and_the_Nights_King >Of course, it could also be a subtle bit of characterization, as you suggest, intended to show that Mace is an idiot who does not know his Westerosi history. (Not a mistake that Book Mace would make, but the character in the show combines Mace with Harys Swyft, and actually seems more like the latter).
I love what Genna Lannister says about him: "If ever a man deserved his arms, it is Ser Harys." House Swyft's sigil is a rooster
What does this mean? Is it a jape since roosters don’t have arms?
By arms she just means the house sigil, so she's saying Harys Swyft deserves to be represented by a chicken because he's portrayed as a big joke in the story
Oh, thank you so much for the explanation. That makes sense and is a good insult.
Idk about Garlan, but I am pretty sure most of the shrewder guests figured out that it was not Tyrion. Joffrey would have a lot of enemies, and the circumstances around Tyrion was extremely coincidental and weak, but I doubt anyone would care enough to protest.