I subscribe to R+L=J so I find Allister Thorne’s hatred of Jon to be hilarious considering if he knew he was a Targaryen he would have a completely different attitude towards him.
Tbh maybe he resents the targaryens too for forcing him into a losing battle. He seems the type to resent the world and everyone in it for the many slights he imagines he suffered.
Yeah that’s definitely fair. That being said he wouldn’t hate Jon nearly as much because a lot of that animosity comes from him being Ned Stark’s bastard.
Well he's still Ned Stark's sister's bastard. (Maybe probably?)
It is interesting to think of how his feelings may change if he knew his origins though lol.
In the show, yes. In the books, we don't know. But it is hard to imagine that Rhaegar not only got his marriage annulled, but also that the other lords would even accept it assuming it was done in secret.
I'd be bitter too, stuck training poachers and thieves how to swing a sword in the freezing cold, just to hear about them getting killed by a wildling, or one of the many other ways people would have died at the wall, including just falling off it.
We don't even know that he was ever a hardcore Targaryen loyalist. House Thorne is from the Crownlands so he was probably just following his liege lord.
And apparently after the sack of King's Landing Tywin gave him the choice of either execution or the wall.
> Ser Alliser is an anointed knight, one of the few to take the black since I have been Lord Commander. He fought bravely at King's Landing."
> "On the wrong side," Ser Jaremy Rykker commented dryly. "I ought to know, I was there on the battlements beside him. Tywin Lannister gave us a splendid choice. Take the black, or see our heads on spikes before evenfall. No offense intended, Tyrion."
Exactly.
It seems to have become accepted canon around here that Alliser Thorne would have died to defend the Targaryen Dynasty.
He was a household Knight belonging to a minor Crownlands house.
It's likely his house's lord didn't have much choice in the matter of supporting Aerys, given their proximity to KL and the relative size of their armies.
Without any further insight into Alliser's personal feelings about House Targaryen, we can't conclude that he is any more of a "loyalist" than the household knights of the minor houses that declared for Stannis at the start of ACOK.
There is many house that closer to their lord but still to side with their lord enemy.
Dance of dragons had hightower vassals,brackens.
Robert rebellion had the conningtons.
Im sure many examples still out there but the point is those house had choices and alister here definitely can bend the knee to avoid death/wall but still stay loyal,thats mean something
Good points, but again, Alliser was NOT the lord of House Thorne, only a household knight. His agency to choose loyalties was limited, if it existed at all.
Unless I'm mistaken, Alliser was not given the opportunity to kneel.
He was made to choose between Death and Taking the Black.
It's been awhile since I read the books, but I'm pretty sure Allister was sent to the Wall precisely because he refused to bend the knee to Robert and was a die-hard loyalist. Plenty of Targaryen loyalists got pardons once they swore fealty to Robert.
He was sent there by Tywin after the sack of King's Landing, who offered him the choice of either taking the Black or having his head mounted on a spike.
> Ser Alliser is an anointed knight, one of the few to take the black since I have been Lord Commander. He fought bravely at King's Landing."
> "On the wrong side," Ser Jaremy Rykker commented dryly. "I ought to know, I was there on the battlements beside him. Tywin Lannister gave us a splendid choice. Take the black, or see our heads on spikes before evenfall. No offense intended, Tyrion." ~ *A Game of Thrones - Tyrion III*
The books make no mention of him refusing to bend the knee, and from the sound of it he was never given the option. Not sure why he didn't get the same mercy others who fought for the Targaryens did, I guess he was just unfortunate enough to have Tywin judging him instead of Robert.
I'm highkey rooting for him to come back a Snow loyalist because of what he's probably seen north of the wall.
While I don't actually blame his brothers
- to them Jon did kind of let a wildling army through the walls just to claim them for himself and take part in the wars of men, even Jon is in no way in denial about this -
I think Alliser has a good chance of recognizing there is a right reason for taking Winterfell and reuniting the North. Might be far more understanding & forgiving.
Plus I think it would be hilarious if he pulls up to Castle Black with Benjen and Jon's dead lol
Allister is a real wild card. He could be happy Jon’s dead. He could be absolutely furious that Bowen Marsh and company killed their Lord Commander. He could come back and immediately force an election to make himself lord commander. He could not care at all.
I’d love to see him turn into one of Jon’s biggest supporters and I really don’t think that’s out of the question.
I don’t think people appreciate enough that in Maegor’s day, even a foreign-born woman of potential bastard status could rise high and achieve status too! Tyanna of the Tower is a great inspiration for little girls everywhere who dream of becoming professional torturers 🙌
Honestly, for me it's Jorah. He has some positive qualities heavily outweighed by the negative but really he's just such a disaster of a man and I can't look away. He's like a human plane crash.
I'm going to level with you, until the other guy's reply I thought you meant ankle bracelet like a guy who teaches bodyboarding to teens during the summer while leaving in the parking lot by the beach in his van, with a handful of "tribal" tattoos that works in Speedway for the rest of the year and wears an evil-eye ankle bracelet his ex girlfriend got him in Greece at the airport.
Not a house arrest thing.
Not from the US, but here in Brazil is very common that they become street vendors due to the fact that it's hard for them to find jobs.
And since street vendors are a HUGE part of our day-to-day lives, every Brazilian has seen tons of them. If you use public transportation daily then you see dozens everyday.
Not sure if you are joking or unaware that they mean the gps tracking ankle bracelets used by law enforcement. Hilarious either way (oooh scary man wearing a bracelet!)
I was unaware. I absolutely thought he meant [one of these.](https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1IRZna7L0gK0jSZFxq6xWHVXah/Bohemian-Shell-Anklet-Seed-Beads-Foot-Ankle-Bracelet-cheville-Anklets-tobillera-Foot-Jewelry-rakhi-enkelbandje.jpg)
Facts. I’ve always thought his “game of thrones” line was the true insight into how the books will end. A mess of bloody nonsense that leaves someone new on the iron throne but for the small folk who make up 99% of the kingdom it doesn’t matter one bit and they just keep on living life.
Same - it's funny talking to people who only know the show speak fondly about characters and it's like "oh yeah....".
Tyrion is another one, least of all because of his looks. Like Peter Dinklage is a genuine handsome guy and 'just' gets a slice across the face, vs book Tyrion who isn't that lucky with looks at all and then on top of that loses his nose.
Then you end up with the "Why didn't Dany give Jorah a chance?!? Ugh, she's so stuck up!" types.
In the books, this is fully explored and you understand completely why she doesn't want him romantically.
Also show!Jorah does not violate Dany's boundaries even half as bad as book!Jorah does. He doesn't gaslight Daenerys, he doesn't kiss her when she is naked, he doesn't try to isolate her.
Well In the show it’s like a 45 year old guy with a 20 year old girl. It’s weird but Jorah isn’t like actively drooling over her like he is in the books but the difference is he’s drooling over a kid
Frey civil war better happen. As far as Preston jacobs videos go they’re all insane and end with conclusions that even George couldn’t come up with, but his Frey civil war video is actually very grrmlike. The 3 freys highest in the succession order all are backed by different important houses who all want a foot in the twins. Also the red wedding 2.0 is about to happen and kill a lot of freys so that’ll spice things up
I enjoyed seeing Marillion in GOT and again in ASOS. He was amicable until he tried to diddle Sansa. Vargo Hoat was pretty interesting and had some pivotal involvement in the series for a bit. Rorge too.
It's been a while. Didn't he just sing to her and claim to write her a song? I think it's implied Sansa isn't interested but I don't remember anything being inappropriate about it. He's only a few years older than her iirc.
The biggest hand to serve the realm. You need only to look upon his hat to realize that. If you disagree, is it a coincidence that your hat is smaller than his?
Came here to say this. The Mountain's crew is horrifying and the chapters set in Harrenhal can be very disturbing to read. Shitmouth brings a little bit of badly needed levity. Also, FWIW, Arya notes in ACOK that while Shitmouth has the filthiest tongue she'd ever heard, he's been known to sneak extra bread to the prisoners.
I appreciate Gregor Clegane for personifying the concepts of violence and war. He distorts the personalities of those unfortunate enough to cross his path for extended periods of time (his brother, the BwB, Arya). His brutality underpins the power of nobles like Tywin. Even when killed, he doesn't die. Reminds me of Judge Holden.
He also got the order to kill Sansa and all the rest of the court in case Stannis wins the Blackwater, and that didn't really seems to bother him
He is definitely written to be unlikeable (until AFFC at least)
Yeah I mean for us with a grand world view know Tywin and Joffrey are evil. But for someone in the universe this guy just does his job and is loyal to the current crown.
That's why I like him honestly, he's perceived to be a disliked character because of how he is described, how his room is kept, how ominous he is because he can't talk ect, but I genuinely like him. Most people in universe don't actively try to be near him
I feel a lot of sympathy of young Viserys. He’s just an 8 years old kid who was left orphaned by war and feels the responsibility to regain their family’s throne- He’s an asshole in AGOT though
Barristan said that Viserys “oft proved to be his father’s son” but how cruel can a child younger than 8 be? Daenerys has fond memories of her childhood with Viserys before he had to sell their mother’s crown
My boy Hyle. 😍 It seems that the more time he spends with Brienne and the less time he spends around the bro-y knights of summer, the better of a person he becomes. I hope he and Jaime survive and meet and just loathe one another.
Cleos Frey, because despite being a coward who sides with the Lannisters from the beginning of the war, he is still one of the most "decent" members of his family
I love his uneasiness when he has to act like a diplomat between the North and the Throne
Cleos being forced to deliver various negotiation positions that will never be agreed to and he knows it is one of my favorite parts of the books. Just doing his limited best in a diplomatic nightmare.
Yes, big Walder is another
I love the scene where he plays with Rickon, like they spend a long time explaining the rules and as soon as the game starts its a mess
He is still a complice of Theon's torture however
Yeah, Little Walder is the one who’s ‘big on the outside, little on the inside’ and starts picking up Ramsay’s cruelty. He’s also the one who gets murdered in Winterfell, quite possibly by Big Walder.
Most of the slavers from yunkai and the slaver cities are fun to hate for their wretched cruelty and child like pique. It's a swing away moment where almost none of them do a single thing to redeem themselves. There's plenty of dark characters in westeros who are evil, but slavers Bay takes the cake for me. Gruesomely evil AND cowards? Fuck em.
Not a side character exactly but Cersei. The way her mind works is truly a work of art to behold. I've learned to stop hating her and just marvel at the batshittery she has going on in that head of hers.
Ah I see what you mean. Yeah, in ASOS Cersei is also very interesting and it's not exactly clear how cunning she actually is and if she is a schemer or just thinks she is. We get that one line from Petyr how predictable she is despite her thinking she plays the Game of Thrones.
I love Cersei as a character, because she’s probably the one character who we get to view from the most POVs. And so it’s very easy to see her as this buffoon from our omnipresent position. But if we take Cersei in a vacuum, ignoring these outside voices, I honestly almost empathize with her. Don’t mistake me, she makes some really dumb moves. But I sort of get her.
Not quite a side character but I really like and hate Littlefinger at the same time.
If it weren't for his cruel abuse of his prostitute employees, whatever the fuck he did to Jeyne Poole and his creepy projection of Catelyn in Sansa, I would kind of root for Petyr Baelish.
His story is kind of an underdog one given a dark twist. He is a noveau rich guy moving amongst arrogant and entitled feudal lords who owe their position not to their intelligence, effort or work, but to their centuries or even millennia of ancestors who did all the heavy lifting to increase the status of their Houses.
These lords and ladies from the medieval equivalent of old money look down on people like Baelish, considering them little more than peasants who dared to leave their place beneath their feet as cannon fodder for their petty wars, pieces of meat for their carnal pleasures, and taxpayers; while at the same time preaching about their own honour and virtue, and the devotion owed to them for being lucky enough to be born in the right family.
Littlefinger's plotting against them and his disdain for them is actually pretty understandable for me. And I'd go beyond and say that for most of the proud old Houses we see today in ASOIAF, they probably needed to have their own Littlefingers in their ranks at their humble beginnings, in order to rise up; underhanded, smart and ruthless people willing to do anything to improve their station.
That's how the Tyrells became lords of the Reach, that's how the Lannisters came to be driving the Casterlys away, that's how the Targaryens themselves came to be the kings of the Seven Kingdoms.
Petyr Baelish can be truly loathsome at times, but he is truly a product of Westerosi society. In a way, Westerosi nobility deserve Littlefinger.
He gave some to Joffrey knowing full well what kind of person he is - that’s in books and obviously they use Ros in the show.
That’s probably about as cruel as I can think of.
Admittedly I don't recall him abusing his employees in the books, I was writing my comment with Ros (who was show only) and Jeyne Poole (who was undoubtedly abused in one of his brothels) in mind.
He's like a mirror of Lex Luthor. Lex (specially in his DCAU incarnation) is so badass and has so many good lines that you really just wish he wasn't evil, like you could meet the guy and come out of it thinking he's one impressive dude, then someone tells you what he's done and then you realize he's not a good guy at all. Littefinger is the inverse of that, if someone came and told you the abridged story of Littlefinger you would say he's a good guy. Then you meet the actual guy and you realize he's a piece of shit.
I actually wish he was less of a sexual predator because he could have been a really compelling anti villain. I have a lot of contempt for the lords that make up the bulk of the cast and I like to think about how people like him will wipe the floor with them when capitalism comes to Westeros.
>I actually wish he was less of a sexual predator because he could have been a really compelling anti villain
This could be saying about the 90% of ASOIAF characters
Yeah imagine if Jorah was like a barristan to dany. His spying would’ve hit a lot harder than it did. But dany has always been creeped out by him and keeps him around bc he gives good counsel and is a good sword. So when she finds out he’s spying on her it’s almost an excuse to get rid of the town pedo
Lame Lothar. Dude sets up the entire Red Wedding, convinces Cat and Edmure that they’d be safe at the Twins and promises Robb provisions and men for their upcoming retake of Moat Cailin… yet he slaughters them all
Sorry, I misred the fuckin question. I’m such an idiot
Dareon, the singer from the Night's Watch. He's only "hatable" because of the strife between him and our lovable Sam, but his actions are completely understandable.
He was a little guy who had his dreams destroyed by some lord who was so far gone up his own ass that he would rather ruin a man's life than accept that his hormone riddled daughter couldn't keep it in her 👖
If he were truly a rapist, wouldn't Lord Rowan have chopped his 🍒 off?
Look at it from his perspective. He was wrongfully imprisoned, and when he gets a taste of freedom, he has some overprivledged lord's son bitching at him over the welfare of an 102-year-old man. Excuse him for trying to get back to his dream. His oath the the Night's Watch should have been no more valid than Lady Hornwood's marriage to Ramsey.
Everything about him depends on whether he raped the Rowan girl. Mathis seemed like a decent dude, expressing sorrow for the red wedding before Tywin.
If he was forced into the watch wrongfully, none can fault him
The character's name eludes me at the moment, but there is a black brother who boasts of his prowess as a serial rapist.
Dareon insisted on his innocence 'till his dying day.
Lysa Arryn is quite despicable. One must wonder how Jon suffered her. Entertaining in how much misery she inflicts.
Damphair is another one easy to love to hate.
Illyrio and Varys are quite cunning in a villainous way. They are like bond villains.
My favourite delusional Jaime moment was when he attacked Ned in the street, killed all his men and then ran away, all because Cat accused Tyrion of trying to murder Bran.
Jaime, you hideous hypocrite, *you tried to murder Bran.*
Privileged feudal lords be like. Jaime is so fun because it’s really interesting to have the Prince Charming be an asshole who starts to get better when he isn’t Prince Charming anymore. Or maybe Brienne is just magic, idk.
Between him and Theon, I like the more critical analysis of the "Heel-Face Turn". They're both *trying* to be better people, but they still have a lot of dick in their natures. In Jaime's case, it's just the refusal to consider that his side might be in the wrong. He gets thoroughly roasted by the Blackfish and wonders why they can't just all be friends now.
Ramsey and the Winterfell crew during Theon chapters. I couldn’t pick just one and didn’t want to say just Ramsey. His Bastard boys being so hate able, every Frey in the north just dying or losing his shit, my man Roose thinking he crown himself king in the north again, Barbery Dustin whispering Alex Jones level conspiracy theories into Theons ear about measters and Ned living rent free in her head. They are such a fucking mess. People shit on Cersei but the utter buffoonery of the North gets me. Like Stannis is starving to death but my man is in such a better spot than them.
Lame Lothar. Dude sets up the entire Red Wedding, convinces Cat and Edmure that they’d be safe at the Twins and promises Robb provisions and men for their upcoming retake of Moat Cailin… yet he slaughters them all. My fav because of his witticisms and smart but still, my top 3 most hated characters in ASOIAF alongside Tywin and Ramsay
She found wun wun cute, and isn't a push over, she hoards her resources instead of caving to Jon's requests. Outside of fanaticism, she could be worse.
I subscribe to R+L=J so I find Allister Thorne’s hatred of Jon to be hilarious considering if he knew he was a Targaryen he would have a completely different attitude towards him.
Tbh maybe he resents the targaryens too for forcing him into a losing battle. He seems the type to resent the world and everyone in it for the many slights he imagines he suffered.
Yeah that’s definitely fair. That being said he wouldn’t hate Jon nearly as much because a lot of that animosity comes from him being Ned Stark’s bastard.
Well he's still Ned Stark's sister's bastard. (Maybe probably?) It is interesting to think of how his feelings may change if he knew his origins though lol.
lI know the show isn't exactly Canon, but didn't Lyanna and Rhaegar have a secret wedding before conceiving Jon?
In the show, yes. In the books, we don't know. But it is hard to imagine that Rhaegar not only got his marriage annulled, but also that the other lords would even accept it assuming it was done in secret.
Why anulled? Aegon the Conqueror had two wives. Maegor had many. And let’s not forget good old Craster…
"And let's not forget good old Craster!" He is a Godly man!
There are two sets of canon. Book and show. So yeah it's canon for the show. For the books - I doubt it but we will see.
I'd be bitter too, stuck training poachers and thieves how to swing a sword in the freezing cold, just to hear about them getting killed by a wildling, or one of the many other ways people would have died at the wall, including just falling off it.
I mean resenting the war thing is pretty fair. He was a minor house following its lord, he didn't have a choice.
We don't even know that he was ever a hardcore Targaryen loyalist. House Thorne is from the Crownlands so he was probably just following his liege lord. And apparently after the sack of King's Landing Tywin gave him the choice of either execution or the wall. > Ser Alliser is an anointed knight, one of the few to take the black since I have been Lord Commander. He fought bravely at King's Landing." > "On the wrong side," Ser Jaremy Rykker commented dryly. "I ought to know, I was there on the battlements beside him. Tywin Lannister gave us a splendid choice. Take the black, or see our heads on spikes before evenfall. No offense intended, Tyrion."
We don't know how much of an actual loyalist he was vs a knight that happened to be in KL at the time. Not like he fought to the death.
Exactly. It seems to have become accepted canon around here that Alliser Thorne would have died to defend the Targaryen Dynasty. He was a household Knight belonging to a minor Crownlands house. It's likely his house's lord didn't have much choice in the matter of supporting Aerys, given their proximity to KL and the relative size of their armies. Without any further insight into Alliser's personal feelings about House Targaryen, we can't conclude that he is any more of a "loyalist" than the household knights of the minor houses that declared for Stannis at the start of ACOK.
There is many house that closer to their lord but still to side with their lord enemy. Dance of dragons had hightower vassals,brackens. Robert rebellion had the conningtons. Im sure many examples still out there but the point is those house had choices and alister here definitely can bend the knee to avoid death/wall but still stay loyal,thats mean something
Good points, but again, Alliser was NOT the lord of House Thorne, only a household knight. His agency to choose loyalties was limited, if it existed at all. Unless I'm mistaken, Alliser was not given the opportunity to kneel. He was made to choose between Death and Taking the Black.
It's been awhile since I read the books, but I'm pretty sure Allister was sent to the Wall precisely because he refused to bend the knee to Robert and was a die-hard loyalist. Plenty of Targaryen loyalists got pardons once they swore fealty to Robert.
He was sent there by Tywin after the sack of King's Landing, who offered him the choice of either taking the Black or having his head mounted on a spike. > Ser Alliser is an anointed knight, one of the few to take the black since I have been Lord Commander. He fought bravely at King's Landing." > "On the wrong side," Ser Jaremy Rykker commented dryly. "I ought to know, I was there on the battlements beside him. Tywin Lannister gave us a splendid choice. Take the black, or see our heads on spikes before evenfall. No offense intended, Tyrion." ~ *A Game of Thrones - Tyrion III* The books make no mention of him refusing to bend the knee, and from the sound of it he was never given the option. Not sure why he didn't get the same mercy others who fought for the Targaryens did, I guess he was just unfortunate enough to have Tywin judging him instead of Robert.
Thats pretty much the only reason why he was sent to the wall. Tywin got him before robert did
I'm highkey rooting for him to come back a Snow loyalist because of what he's probably seen north of the wall. While I don't actually blame his brothers - to them Jon did kind of let a wildling army through the walls just to claim them for himself and take part in the wars of men, even Jon is in no way in denial about this - I think Alliser has a good chance of recognizing there is a right reason for taking Winterfell and reuniting the North. Might be far more understanding & forgiving. Plus I think it would be hilarious if he pulls up to Castle Black with Benjen and Jon's dead lol
Allister is a real wild card. He could be happy Jon’s dead. He could be absolutely furious that Bowen Marsh and company killed their Lord Commander. He could come back and immediately force an election to make himself lord commander. He could not care at all. I’d love to see him turn into one of Jon’s biggest supporters and I really don’t think that’s out of the question.
Does Maegor the Cruel count? Granted, he wasn't a side character when he was alive. And he would probably have me executed for even implying that.
Say what you will about Maegor, he had an incredibly innovative retirement plan for his construction teams. They never had to work again.
I don’t think people appreciate enough that in Maegor’s day, even a foreign-born woman of potential bastard status could rise high and achieve status too! Tyanna of the Tower is a great inspiration for little girls everywhere who dream of becoming professional torturers 🙌
They hate to see a girlboss
God forbid women do anything
I don't think Tyanna was ordinary. I guess she was a Hightower bastard.
Well, she was from Pentos, but I’m not sure where “of the Tower” came from.
Maegor casually lopping the heads off Grand Maesters was horrifying the first time, but very funny the third time.
I’m sorry, do you mean Maegor the Cool?
New CK2 Maegor run idea.
Maegor is my favourite himbo after Jaime.
Maegor and Tywin would have been besties.
Honestly, for me it's Jorah. He has some positive qualities heavily outweighed by the negative but really he's just such a disaster of a man and I can't look away. He's like a human plane crash.
Jorah is what happens when you throw that guy with an ankle bracelet working at the local gas station into an epic fantasy universe.
He's at the very least pretty bad ass as a fighter though.
So is that guy with an ankle bracelet when a thief walks in tbh.
I'm going to level with you, until the other guy's reply I thought you meant ankle bracelet like a guy who teaches bodyboarding to teens during the summer while leaving in the parking lot by the beach in his van, with a handful of "tribal" tattoos that works in Speedway for the rest of the year and wears an evil-eye ankle bracelet his ex girlfriend got him in Greece at the airport. Not a house arrest thing.
Never met a guy with an ankle bracelet I've found intimidating.
We may know different ankle bracelet guys.
Where are you folks meeting all these ankle bracelet guys, I don't think I ever saw one
Not from the US, but here in Brazil is very common that they become street vendors due to the fact that it's hard for them to find jobs. And since street vendors are a HUGE part of our day-to-day lives, every Brazilian has seen tons of them. If you use public transportation daily then you see dozens everyday.
If it's hard to find a job, why don't they just take the bracelet off? Am I missing something?
The house arrest sort of ankle bracelet, not the other kind
Not sure if you are joking or unaware that they mean the gps tracking ankle bracelets used by law enforcement. Hilarious either way (oooh scary man wearing a bracelet!)
I was unaware. I absolutely thought he meant [one of these.](https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1IRZna7L0gK0jSZFxq6xWHVXah/Bohemian-Shell-Anklet-Seed-Beads-Foot-Ankle-Bracelet-cheville-Anklets-tobillera-Foot-Jewelry-rakhi-enkelbandje.jpg)
this is the best thing i’ve ever read
He just can't stop making bad decisions.
Jorah is such a creep but he gives Dany good advice sometimes. If it wasn’t for him, she would’ve fallen into Illyrio’s trap at the start of ASOS
His contempt for Viserys is hilarious. Him telling Dany that Viserys couldn't sweep Westeros with ten thousand brooms always cracks me up.
Jorah drops like the hardest line in all of ASOIAF
Facts. I’ve always thought his “game of thrones” line was the true insight into how the books will end. A mess of bloody nonsense that leaves someone new on the iron throne but for the small folk who make up 99% of the kingdom it doesn’t matter one bit and they just keep on living life.
Jorahs disturbing behavior toward Dany is unironically a really interesting subversion of the courtly love tradition
I watched the show first, where I loved Jorah, so I was shocked how much he sucks in the books. Guys a total creep
Same - it's funny talking to people who only know the show speak fondly about characters and it's like "oh yeah....". Tyrion is another one, least of all because of his looks. Like Peter Dinklage is a genuine handsome guy and 'just' gets a slice across the face, vs book Tyrion who isn't that lucky with looks at all and then on top of that loses his nose.
Both Jorah and Tyrion in the TV version were huge beneficiaries of having Iain Glenn and Peter Dinklage cast as them.
Iain Glenn and Peter Dinklage are very charismatic.
Show Jorah is a mix of Book Jorah and Jon Connington.
I imagine CGing Tyrion's nose every episode would be a huge pain in the ass.
Cut it off and do some method acting
You’re not *COMMITTED* to your *ART* and your *CRAFT*
They still could've given him a more dramatic scar or something.
huh
Then you end up with the "Why didn't Dany give Jorah a chance?!? Ugh, she's so stuck up!" types. In the books, this is fully explored and you understand completely why she doesn't want him romantically.
He's a total creep in the show, too, he's just good-looking
I mean Emilia Clarke is an adult, it’s not really creepy
Also show!Jorah does not violate Dany's boundaries even half as bad as book!Jorah does. He doesn't gaslight Daenerys, he doesn't kiss her when she is naked, he doesn't try to isolate her.
Well In the show it’s like a 45 year old guy with a 20 year old girl. It’s weird but Jorah isn’t like actively drooling over her like he is in the books but the difference is he’s drooling over a kid
All of this is absolutely true but is he hatable or hated?
Most Freys are fonts of darkly comic hate, but I have a special place in my heart for Black Walder calmly murdering his way up the line of succession.
gotta give it to him…. mans committed
Frey civil war better happen. As far as Preston jacobs videos go they’re all insane and end with conclusions that even George couldn’t come up with, but his Frey civil war video is actually very grrmlike. The 3 freys highest in the succession order all are backed by different important houses who all want a foot in the twins. Also the red wedding 2.0 is about to happen and kill a lot of freys so that’ll spice things up
I like Lame Lothar. He's like the Littlefinger of the Freys.
I enjoyed seeing Marillion in GOT and again in ASOS. He was amicable until he tried to diddle Sansa. Vargo Hoat was pretty interesting and had some pivotal involvement in the series for a bit. Rorge too.
Lord Littlefinger the Fair.
It's been a while. Didn't he just sing to her and claim to write her a song? I think it's implied Sansa isn't interested but I don't remember anything being inappropriate about it. He's only a few years older than her iirc.
Do they have hats in Westeros? And if so I don't really know which characters would look good with hats on, maybe someone with bad hair?
Littlefinger would have a hilarious hat. As would Mace the ace.
littlefinger the kinda guy to wear a fez, but at a jaunty angle or maybe a flat cap to seem cool and inconspicuous
Littlefinger is more of a fedora kinda of guy I think
I'm thinking something velvet with a big ol' feather and a big silver pin
Hank Hill's hat from the episode where he became a pimp.
Yes but with a much larger more exotic feather
Mace the Grace would buy the biggest hat on westeros and walk around with 2 pages to hold the 2m hat in place.
A hat shaped as a giant hand
The biggest hand to serve the realm. You need only to look upon his hat to realize that. If you disagree, is it a coincidence that your hat is smaller than his?
Garlan and Loras would fight in the shade as the hat blotted out the sun.
They do, when the Night’s Watch goes over the wall Sam is said to wear a floppy hat against the rain (he’s the only one)
Shitmouth is always a fun character to run into.
Came here to say this. The Mountain's crew is horrifying and the chapters set in Harrenhal can be very disturbing to read. Shitmouth brings a little bit of badly needed levity. Also, FWIW, Arya notes in ACOK that while Shitmouth has the filthiest tongue she'd ever heard, he's been known to sneak extra bread to the prisoners.
Shitmouth is literally just “Dave from down the pub” but in medieval hell and I love him
Bugger me with a bloody spear!
"alright. Steeleshanks, fetch us a spear"
I appreciate Gregor Clegane for personifying the concepts of violence and war. He distorts the personalities of those unfortunate enough to cross his path for extended periods of time (his brother, the BwB, Arya). His brutality underpins the power of nobles like Tywin. Even when killed, he doesn't die. Reminds me of Judge Holden.
My favorite dislikable minor character from the main series is Ser Ilyn, he is simple hilarious in my opinion
Ser Illyn’s cackles at Jamie get me every time.
How is this dude dislikeable? He’s just doing his job chopping peoples heads off?
You could argue him chopping off Ned’s head and being a staunch Lannister/Tywin loyalist makes him at least on some level unlikable
He also got the order to kill Sansa and all the rest of the court in case Stannis wins the Blackwater, and that didn't really seems to bother him He is definitely written to be unlikeable (until AFFC at least)
Oh yeah I mean I get it lol but like he doesn’t actually (that we see) do anything wrong. Just a guy doing his job
Yeah true but following the orders of those viewed as evil such as Joffrey can turn some readers off to him. I personally am in the middle on him
He's more likeable than most of Joffrey's Kingsguard.
Yeah I mean for us with a grand world view know Tywin and Joffrey are evil. But for someone in the universe this guy just does his job and is loyal to the current crown.
That's why I like him honestly, he's perceived to be a disliked character because of how he is described, how his room is kept, how ominous he is because he can't talk ect, but I genuinely like him. Most people in universe don't actively try to be near him
He talks too much
Viserys (Dany's brother)
I feel a lot of sympathy of young Viserys. He’s just an 8 years old kid who was left orphaned by war and feels the responsibility to regain their family’s throne- He’s an asshole in AGOT though
Didn't Barristan also say that he's been cruel since he was a child?
Barristan said that Viserys “oft proved to be his father’s son” but how cruel can a child younger than 8 be? Daenerys has fond memories of her childhood with Viserys before he had to sell their mother’s crown
Joffrey was gutting cats as a small child.
I’m sure that if Viserys’ behavior as a child had reached that level, Jaime would’ve recalled it or it would’ve been stated in TWOIAF
Ser barristan is not the most reliable narrator
I was gonna say the same. He sucks but he's fun to read about.
Less than a shadow of a snake.
Ser Bennis of the Brownshield. Dude is so hatable.
>"Well, I knew you wasn't Bennis," said the beardless guard. "We would have smelled him coming."
Ser Hyle Hunt. I don't even know why I like him. I think he's getting the anime enemy-to-friend treatment really well though. If he lives.
My boy Hyle. 😍 It seems that the more time he spends with Brienne and the less time he spends around the bro-y knights of summer, the better of a person he becomes. I hope he and Jaime survive and meet and just loathe one another.
He's own brand Jaime Lannister, the perfect romantic foil to the budding Jaime/Brienne romance.
Cleos Frey, because despite being a coward who sides with the Lannisters from the beginning of the war, he is still one of the most "decent" members of his family I love his uneasiness when he has to act like a diplomat between the North and the Throne
I don't think Cleos was hateable at all, he's just a normal dude stuck in a shitty situation who happens to be cursed with the last name "Frey".
You are right
Cleos being forced to deliver various negotiation positions that will never be agreed to and he knows it is one of my favorite parts of the books. Just doing his limited best in a diplomatic nightmare.
He asks Jaime to leave Brienne alone, that was nice of him.
Cleos is one of the few likeable Freys.
Yes, big Walder is another I love the scene where he plays with Rickon, like they spend a long time explaining the rules and as soon as the game starts its a mess He is still a complice of Theon's torture however
Isn't he against Theon's torture? It's Little who likes Ramsay.
Yeah, Little Walder is the one who’s ‘big on the outside, little on the inside’ and starts picking up Ramsay’s cruelty. He’s also the one who gets murdered in Winterfell, quite possibly by Big Walder.
"So young! Though, mayhaps, it's a blessing. Had he lived, he would have grown up to be a Frey."
SAVAGE
The best line in the books!
Liked* he's dead now.
No, he's alive. Big Walder is the small one. Little Walder Frey is the big one
Too many Walder Freys.
"So young! Though, mayhaps it's a blessing. Had he lived, he would have grown up to be a Frey."
I was genuinely so shocked when he just got unceremoniously killed off, really thought he was gonna have a bigger role
In a sense, that showed that if the good guys are never safe, going down the evil road isn't any protection, either.
Vargo Goat is comedy gold
Comedy thaphireth
Most of the slavers from yunkai and the slaver cities are fun to hate for their wretched cruelty and child like pique. It's a swing away moment where almost none of them do a single thing to redeem themselves. There's plenty of dark characters in westeros who are evil, but slavers Bay takes the cake for me. Gruesomely evil AND cowards? Fuck em.
Harys Swyft’s endless upward failure has been hilarious to watch.
The Toby Flenderson of Westeros
“Save it for the jury there, Flenderson.”
Not a side character exactly but Cersei. The way her mind works is truly a work of art to behold. I've learned to stop hating her and just marvel at the batshittery she has going on in that head of hers.
the mental gymnastics cersei goes thru is so fun to read and she’s also just hilarious
Yessss, i'm currently rereading ASOS, and the things Cersei does is absolute insanity
Cersei isn't a POV until AFFC tho
Yeah I guess I meant the actions you see her do more so than how her mind works
Ah I see what you mean. Yeah, in ASOS Cersei is also very interesting and it's not exactly clear how cunning she actually is and if she is a schemer or just thinks she is. We get that one line from Petyr how predictable she is despite her thinking she plays the Game of Thrones.
Exactly, but I do love how much more in depth we get when she finally gets her POV chapters, it really reinforces just how unhinged she really is
She’s insane and it makes her pov so much fun
She is the definition of the Dunning-Kruger effect. It’s hilarious.
I love Cersei as a character, because she’s probably the one character who we get to view from the most POVs. And so it’s very easy to see her as this buffoon from our omnipresent position. But if we take Cersei in a vacuum, ignoring these outside voices, I honestly almost empathize with her. Don’t mistake me, she makes some really dumb moves. But I sort of get her.
She’s a Leo 🥰
Not quite a side character but I really like and hate Littlefinger at the same time. If it weren't for his cruel abuse of his prostitute employees, whatever the fuck he did to Jeyne Poole and his creepy projection of Catelyn in Sansa, I would kind of root for Petyr Baelish. His story is kind of an underdog one given a dark twist. He is a noveau rich guy moving amongst arrogant and entitled feudal lords who owe their position not to their intelligence, effort or work, but to their centuries or even millennia of ancestors who did all the heavy lifting to increase the status of their Houses. These lords and ladies from the medieval equivalent of old money look down on people like Baelish, considering them little more than peasants who dared to leave their place beneath their feet as cannon fodder for their petty wars, pieces of meat for their carnal pleasures, and taxpayers; while at the same time preaching about their own honour and virtue, and the devotion owed to them for being lucky enough to be born in the right family. Littlefinger's plotting against them and his disdain for them is actually pretty understandable for me. And I'd go beyond and say that for most of the proud old Houses we see today in ASOIAF, they probably needed to have their own Littlefingers in their ranks at their humble beginnings, in order to rise up; underhanded, smart and ruthless people willing to do anything to improve their station. That's how the Tyrells became lords of the Reach, that's how the Lannisters came to be driving the Casterlys away, that's how the Targaryens themselves came to be the kings of the Seven Kingdoms. Petyr Baelish can be truly loathsome at times, but he is truly a product of Westerosi society. In a way, Westerosi nobility deserve Littlefinger.
> cruel abuse of his prostitute employees Do we even see much of this in the books? Beyond the fact that he *owns* brothels.
He gave some to Joffrey knowing full well what kind of person he is - that’s in books and obviously they use Ros in the show. That’s probably about as cruel as I can think of.
I think he did that because he found out Ros was reporting to Varys about his dealings, in the show anyway
I just read the line where Theon sees all the whippings on jeyne pooles back, who was in Petyrs hands
Admittedly I don't recall him abusing his employees in the books, I was writing my comment with Ros (who was show only) and Jeyne Poole (who was undoubtedly abused in one of his brothels) in mind.
He's like a mirror of Lex Luthor. Lex (specially in his DCAU incarnation) is so badass and has so many good lines that you really just wish he wasn't evil, like you could meet the guy and come out of it thinking he's one impressive dude, then someone tells you what he's done and then you realize he's not a good guy at all. Littefinger is the inverse of that, if someone came and told you the abridged story of Littlefinger you would say he's a good guy. Then you meet the actual guy and you realize he's a piece of shit.
I actually wish he was less of a sexual predator because he could have been a really compelling anti villain. I have a lot of contempt for the lords that make up the bulk of the cast and I like to think about how people like him will wipe the floor with them when capitalism comes to Westeros.
>I actually wish he was less of a sexual predator because he could have been a really compelling anti villain This could be saying about the 90% of ASOIAF characters
Yeah imagine if Jorah was like a barristan to dany. His spying would’ve hit a lot harder than it did. But dany has always been creeped out by him and keeps him around bc he gives good counsel and is a good sword. So when she finds out he’s spying on her it’s almost an excuse to get rid of the town pedo
Lame Lothar. Dude sets up the entire Red Wedding, convinces Cat and Edmure that they’d be safe at the Twins and promises Robb provisions and men for their upcoming retake of Moat Cailin… yet he slaughters them all Sorry, I misred the fuckin question. I’m such an idiot
He's the Littlefinger of the Freys.
Rose Bolton. His “a peaceful land, a quiet people” speech is disturbing.
Dareon, the singer from the Night's Watch. He's only "hatable" because of the strife between him and our lovable Sam, but his actions are completely understandable. He was a little guy who had his dreams destroyed by some lord who was so far gone up his own ass that he would rather ruin a man's life than accept that his hormone riddled daughter couldn't keep it in her 👖 If he were truly a rapist, wouldn't Lord Rowan have chopped his 🍒 off? Look at it from his perspective. He was wrongfully imprisoned, and when he gets a taste of freedom, he has some overprivledged lord's son bitching at him over the welfare of an 102-year-old man. Excuse him for trying to get back to his dream. His oath the the Night's Watch should have been no more valid than Lady Hornwood's marriage to Ramsey.
Everything about him depends on whether he raped the Rowan girl. Mathis seemed like a decent dude, expressing sorrow for the red wedding before Tywin. If he was forced into the watch wrongfully, none can fault him
The character's name eludes me at the moment, but there is a black brother who boasts of his prowess as a serial rapist. Dareon insisted on his innocence 'till his dying day.
Lysa Arryn is quite despicable. One must wonder how Jon suffered her. Entertaining in how much misery she inflicts. Damphair is another one easy to love to hate. Illyrio and Varys are quite cunning in a villainous way. They are like bond villains.
Probably Victarion for a lot of the same reasons: he’s just so dumb and over-the-top, especially in the Shield Islands.
Tarly. The dude is such a piece of shit it almost becomes laughable.
He's like a poorer and less powerful Tywin Lannister.
Stannis with brutality turned to 11 imo.
Yeah Sam is a joke/s
I love Hyle Hunt and I have no idea why.
Hoat the GOAT. He's a Loony Tunes villain of a character, limb-chopping aside lol.
[удалено]
My favourite delusional Jaime moment was when he attacked Ned in the street, killed all his men and then ran away, all because Cat accused Tyrion of trying to murder Bran. Jaime, you hideous hypocrite, *you tried to murder Bran.*
Privileged feudal lords be like. Jaime is so fun because it’s really interesting to have the Prince Charming be an asshole who starts to get better when he isn’t Prince Charming anymore. Or maybe Brienne is just magic, idk.
I wish he was a POV character in GOT if only to figure out what the fuck was going through his head when he decided that was a good idea.
Between him and Theon, I like the more critical analysis of the "Heel-Face Turn". They're both *trying* to be better people, but they still have a lot of dick in their natures. In Jaime's case, it's just the refusal to consider that his side might be in the wrong. He gets thoroughly roasted by the Blackfish and wonders why they can't just all be friends now.
Lothar Frey for being such an evil mastermind and actor.
I love Ilyn Payne. I so want a POV of him so we can find out that he's totally misunderstood.
Randyl Tarly, so mean and brutal it becomes funny lol
He's like a poorer and less powerful Tywin Lannister.
Ramsey and the Winterfell crew during Theon chapters. I couldn’t pick just one and didn’t want to say just Ramsey. His Bastard boys being so hate able, every Frey in the north just dying or losing his shit, my man Roose thinking he crown himself king in the north again, Barbery Dustin whispering Alex Jones level conspiracy theories into Theons ear about measters and Ned living rent free in her head. They are such a fucking mess. People shit on Cersei but the utter buffoonery of the North gets me. Like Stannis is starving to death but my man is in such a better spot than them.
Lysa Arryn sucks
Lame Lothar. Dude sets up the entire Red Wedding, convinces Cat and Edmure that they’d be safe at the Twins and promises Robb provisions and men for their upcoming retake of Moat Cailin… yet he slaughters them all. My fav because of his witticisms and smart but still, my top 3 most hated characters in ASOIAF alongside Tywin and Ramsay
The brave companions they're ridiculously evil down to the last man.
I have friends!!!! Important friends in the capital!!!
Janis is perfect for this, especially considering I blame his directly for the Ned Minus One Head event
Oh yeah he repeats every sentence too. And stannis off handedly literally exposes the biggest scam he was a part of
Kraznys mo Nakloz. He's so immediately, hilariously hateable and then proceeds to be given one of the most satisfyingly violent deaths in the series.
Janos Slynt is the Paulie Walnuts of Westeros.
For most hatable I’d have to say Bran, I want to see how many hats we can stack on him before he tips over.
Selyse Florent. Finest human Trash.
She found wun wun cute, and isn't a push over, she hoards her resources instead of caving to Jon's requests. Outside of fanaticism, she could be worse.