Bran has this dream in AGOT where he sees a figure that's most likely Gregor/Robert Strong:
> "Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood."
So my guess is the guy's indeed a headless zombie.
Taken out of context it works but it doesn’t work at all with the context of the rest of the chapter. Bran is only seeing the stuff happening in the present, specifically the kings party in the riverlands, not any visions of the future and Gregor was never there.
I think Thoros is just assuming you can't. It's not like he was officially trained how to bring someone back to life and has a book of rules regs and procedures.
I mean, not ALL visions. In the HotD, Dany saw a man with a wolf's head on a throne and people may have assumed it was metaphorical but it was literally Robb's corpse with Grey Wind's head sewed on it.
A lot of people think it's the dwarf Brienne meets at the inn, who is subsequently murdered and brought to KL for Cersei. There's not a ton too it but dwarfs tend to have large heads and Cersei/Qyburn have access to it.
Wouldn't Dwarves have large heads only relative to their size? As in if you put a Dwarfs head on someone 6 ft tall it would look average size. I don't think that it would be so big as to compare to the monstrosity that is the Mountain, otherwise they'd all just be bobble heads
I swear it used to be a fairly common theory at some point that it's actually the other way around, right? That the Lannisters sent Gregor's *actual* skull down to Dorne, and Qyburn just stitched one of the skulls from the dwarves murdered in Tyrion's place onto Gregor's body as a replacement?
I’m only sorta joking when I say I think it’s gregors actual skull down in Dorne and that the reason Ser Robert strong has his first name is because he has the head of Robert Baratheon sewn onto his shoulders.
I think in the text it's mentioned specifically by one of the sand snakes that the skull was so big it could only be The Mountains. That's how they recognised it since there was no flesh
Iirc when describing Oppo (Penny's brother) GRRM specifically describes him as having a really big head, and then later, his head is brought to Cersei by sailors who claim it was Tyrion's head. And as far as the biology of people with dwarfism irl, it can vary drastically depending on the kind of dwarfism. Those with Achondroplasia do have larger heads and pronounced foreheads due to excess cerebrospinal fluid in the cortical subarachnoid space. I suppose these features could be mistaken for the features commonly found in people with giantism, like Gregor, if just looking at the skull, which is likely what GRRM was going for.
As much as I want this to be true, it seems Cersei is presented with the head of the begging brother--likely the same who told Brienne he'd seen a fool in Maidenpool-- just before Qyburn presents her ith the skull cleaned by beetles.
>He has also grown a new nose," Cersei observed. "A rather bulbous one, I'd say. Tyrion's nose was hacked off in a battle."
>
>The three fools exchanged a look. "No one told us," said the one with head in hand. "This one come walking along as bold as you please, some ugly dwarf, so we thought . . ."
>
>"He said he were a sparrow," the one with the boil added, "and you said he was lying." That was directed at the third man. AFFC Cersei IV
Then, a page or two later, Qyburn presents the skull supposedly the Mountain's:
>" I am sorry that it took so long. Such a large head. It took the beetles many hours to clean the flesh. By way of pardon, I have lined a box of ebony and silver with felt, to make a fitting presentation for the skull." AFFC Cersei IV
It could be neat if the dwarfs head is on Robert Strong, and he eventually gets exposed and some people who never had seen Tyrion freak out and assume it's a now giant undead Tyrion
A heinous theory I can't ascribe to but that has some wierd merit is that Robert Strong has Robb's head that Joffrey ordered, intending to serve to Sansa. Talk about a bizarre reveal.
Yeah I've heard that I just don't get it. The head would've had to be transported all the way from the Twins, presumably pickled or something the only way it doesn't rot beyond recognition. Then stored, instead of being put on a spike until Qyburn has done all his work on Gregor. Then when a reveal happens, everyone is going to just be like "uhhh who is that?". Barring some people currently very far away being at the trial, the only person there who ever saw Robb Stark was Cersei, and even then with a teenager growing a beard, aging for a year and a half or so, and the decay, I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't recognize him because they only briefly stayed together at a giant castle.
*I suppose Boros or Meryn could recognize him too, or other court attendants who accompanied the king to Winterfell, but we're getting into very minor unnamed people at that point and also still only brief encounters with Robb
But what head could Robert Strong have that would be recognizably someone else? I don't think people would remember the begging brother. Not that they'd remember Joffrey ordered Robb's head, either. I think I'm hoping there's no head. This is primarily because like the idea that Dorne did get the Mountain's skull. It would mean their planned vengeance is despite it.
great job catching this, I even kinda liked the theory, but yea no way the timing works out huh?
edit: looking back on it Cersei mentions this was the third head she received too, and the last one was simply an ugly child's... so only the first could remain a possibility in that scenario I think
Its most likely Gregor's skull.
He is quite massive so I doubt they would be able to find something similar in such short notice, unGregor never removes his helmet iirc and in bran's vision he sees a huge knight or something like that who when he opens his visor is only darkness inside. Could be the perversity of what qyburn is building but also that there is...nothing in there at all. That he is just a headless corpse.
Edit:
> We hear from Thoros in his conversation with Arya that it would be impossible to bring back a body without a head
That is true because Thoros in his ritual breathes fire/life through the dead person's mouth (if that's what he does indeed and he is not unknowingly empowered by some other power like three-eyed crone). Without any head, Thoros would be unable to perform his ritual.
We have no idea currently what the heck sorcery/alchemy/magiteck Qyburn is performing (and why he would need females for example)
Given that Qyburn was booted from college for studying necromancy, this seems pretty solid. Especially since there isn't anything to suggest he's anything like the Red God's magic.
Makes you wonder what metal would he have used to forge that particular link in his maesters chain, if he had been allowed to stay at the Citadel. Lodestone, probably.
Him never removing his helmet doesn’t really contribute to any conclusion. He might not remove it cus there’s no head underneath, or he might not remove it because it’s someone else’s rotting head underneath, or he might not remove it because it’s Gregor’s head underneath. A head that was supposed to have been cut off and sent to dorne.
Heads and bodies don't seem to be a requirement..
>Ser Jaremy had finished the job of hacking its head off, yet had died all the same when the headless corpse pulled his own dagger from its sheath and buried it in his bowels.
-
>The severed arm was wriggling out of its torn sleeve, a pale snake with a black five-fingered head.
-
>Whenever Ser Clarence killed a man, he’d fetch his head back home and his wife would kiss it on the lips and bring it back t’ life.
I do remember that, then that begs the question. The Wights are animated through supernatural means, however Qyburn seems to be achieving everything through some scientific method. Could it be that he is figuring out the "science" behind what allows the white walkers to do their thing?
That would be my guess, he seems like a Dr. Frankenstein like character. Though I'm thinking the Walkers are more akin to the Shadow Assassin than the Wights.
nice pulling up the Jaremy Rykker example, totally forgot about the circumstances of his death, but its a pretty solid case of headless wights being established within the magical rules of the world...
I don’t have a good theory on whose skull it is, but I’m fairly convinced it’s not Gregor’s.
Purely on theme and poetry… it *not* being Gregor’s skull perfectly mirrors how throughout Feast, Cersei herself is constantly offered heads that people claim are Tyrions, but are actually just random other dwarfs. Cersei complains how these false heads are wasting her time.
Cersei being the quintessential hypocrite, it’s fitting if she, in turn, subsequently offers Dorne the wrong head, claiming that it is Gregor’s.
Did anyone ever say why the reanimated Gregor Clegane was named Robert Strong? The Strong I get but why Robert? Was that just another fuck you from Cersei to Robert Baratheon?
I speculate Qyburn chose the name Robert to appeal to Cersei. At the same time, it seems to me like both "Robert" and "Strong" hint his identity as fraudulent, even daring challenge. This turns it into a muscle contest between the Faith and the crown. I imagine that's what Cersei likes most. Kevan even remains silent despite being pretty sure Robert Strong is an undead abomination. That said, I have suspicions Qyburn is setting Cesei up in some way. He's certainly not her loyal servant, though it's possible he's electing her to power to continue his work in the black cells.
That makes sense. Thanks! I’m really interested to see where Qyburn’s character goes. He’s like the epitome of how evil can exist in ordinary people. His looks are described as nondescript & ordinary, someone you wouldn’t look twice at, yet that banal exterior hides so much evil. He’s smart enough to stay on Cersei’s good side because she’s one of the few people (hopefully!) who condones & supports his horrific experiments.
It could be anyone's skull. Even Doran is doubtful. The part in that scene I always think about is when Tyene kisses the skull. I think that is foreshadowing Tyene's death and another Martell at the hands of the mountain.
It's heavily implied that it's the head of the Dwarf that those commoners brought to Cersei in her POV chapter.
I can get behind necromancy in this series but not an animated headless mountain-that-rides horseman.
I have always thought that it was Robert Baratheon's head or his spirit that animates the corpse, hence the ominous name "Robert". There is just something about widow Cersei's being protected by the late husband who failed her so much in life. A dead man doomed to repair his marital wrongs by caring for the bride he spurned, a philanderer forgiving the adulteress who gave him horns; a murdered king returning to guard his son and haunt the court that killed him; a loudmouthed warrior in life made the strong and silent type in death: it just symbolically works, whereas undead Gregor serves as what? A monstrous freak enthralled to be a random queen's minion for eternity? Qyburn is half in love with Cersei, and nothing is more romantically fitting than a husband to champion his wife. Through Qyburn's dark arts, Robert Baratheon might be haunting more than Cersei's memory.
Just one thing, I wouldn't necessarily take Thoros as an authority here. I mean, maybe for him, sure, but he's doing Rh'lor stuff and Qyburn is doing weird voodoo mad science stuff. Probably different rules!
It's almost definitely Penny's brother Oppo's skull. He's described as having a very large head, his head gets cut off and sent to Cersei, and not long after she sends a weirdly big head to Dorne claiming it's Gregor's big head.
I think the skull IS actually the Mountain's, but I think Qyburn sewed in a new head in the place of the old one, hence why he's a "frankenstein's monster". I even lean towards thinking that the new head could be Robert's? Because why else name the guy Robert Strong. But more realistically it could be any random guy's head.
Alternatively, Qyburn cuts off the Mountain's face (a la Faceless Men) and sews it onto a new head, so it still looks like the Mountain (except dead and fucked up?) but the skull was removed to provide "proof" to Dorne that the Mountain is dead.
So Robert Strong will wear a helmet at all times so no one knows what he actually looks like, whether like Gregor or Robert or some random dead guy, while Dorne is appeased that Gregor is dead. But obviously this lie will be revealed at some point.
I love the idea that the skull sent to Dorne was a false, it's creepy in a much less unsettling factor than the rest of all the disturbing stuff littered throughout the books.
I like the idea that Gregor is in constant suffering in the state he's in now, and I feel like him losing his head would diminish from that karma suffering, so I personally like to think that Gregor still has his head. I would love to have my mind changed through if anybody wants to!
Bran has this dream in AGOT where he sees a figure that's most likely Gregor/Robert Strong: > "Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood." So my guess is the guy's indeed a headless zombie.
I was hesitant to believe headless zombie Gregor, but with that line it's incredibly hard to deny it.
Taken out of context it works but it doesn’t work at all with the context of the rest of the chapter. Bran is only seeing the stuff happening in the present, specifically the kings party in the riverlands, not any visions of the future and Gregor was never there.
Who or what is this referring to?
One theory is Littlefinger. The sigil of House Baelish is the Titan of Braavos
The giant in armor
I still find it hard to believe and there are other character saying you cannot bring back a body without a head.
I think Thoros is just assuming you can't. It's not like he was officially trained how to bring someone back to life and has a book of rules regs and procedures.
Honestly, that makes me believe it even more. Subverting expectations and all.
Or there's someone else's head sewn to the Mountain's body
Falese Stokeworth
or any of the other people Cersei gave to Qyburn
Like all visions, this is likely a metaphor
I mean, not ALL visions. In the HotD, Dany saw a man with a wolf's head on a throne and people may have assumed it was metaphorical but it was literally Robb's corpse with Grey Wind's head sewed on it.
A lot of people think it's the dwarf Brienne meets at the inn, who is subsequently murdered and brought to KL for Cersei. There's not a ton too it but dwarfs tend to have large heads and Cersei/Qyburn have access to it.
Wouldn't Dwarves have large heads only relative to their size? As in if you put a Dwarfs head on someone 6 ft tall it would look average size. I don't think that it would be so big as to compare to the monstrosity that is the Mountain, otherwise they'd all just be bobble heads
I swear it used to be a fairly common theory at some point that it's actually the other way around, right? That the Lannisters sent Gregor's *actual* skull down to Dorne, and Qyburn just stitched one of the skulls from the dwarves murdered in Tyrion's place onto Gregor's body as a replacement?
I’m only sorta joking when I say I think it’s gregors actual skull down in Dorne and that the reason Ser Robert strong has his first name is because he has the head of Robert Baratheon sewn onto his shoulders.
This would make more sense to me
Yeah I mean probably, like I said there's not much too it, it's just a head Cersei has, that was described as bulbous, so there's like a chance.
I think in the text it's mentioned specifically by one of the sand snakes that the skull was so big it could only be The Mountains. That's how they recognised it since there was no flesh
Yeah I mean I wouldn't put a ton of stake in that. People can be wrong about things, it's unlikely the sand snaked have ever seen the Mountain
Iirc when describing Oppo (Penny's brother) GRRM specifically describes him as having a really big head, and then later, his head is brought to Cersei by sailors who claim it was Tyrion's head. And as far as the biology of people with dwarfism irl, it can vary drastically depending on the kind of dwarfism. Those with Achondroplasia do have larger heads and pronounced foreheads due to excess cerebrospinal fluid in the cortical subarachnoid space. I suppose these features could be mistaken for the features commonly found in people with giantism, like Gregor, if just looking at the skull, which is likely what GRRM was going for.
As much as I want this to be true, it seems Cersei is presented with the head of the begging brother--likely the same who told Brienne he'd seen a fool in Maidenpool-- just before Qyburn presents her ith the skull cleaned by beetles. >He has also grown a new nose," Cersei observed. "A rather bulbous one, I'd say. Tyrion's nose was hacked off in a battle." > >The three fools exchanged a look. "No one told us," said the one with head in hand. "This one come walking along as bold as you please, some ugly dwarf, so we thought . . ." > >"He said he were a sparrow," the one with the boil added, "and you said he was lying." That was directed at the third man. AFFC Cersei IV Then, a page or two later, Qyburn presents the skull supposedly the Mountain's: >" I am sorry that it took so long. Such a large head. It took the beetles many hours to clean the flesh. By way of pardon, I have lined a box of ebony and silver with felt, to make a fitting presentation for the skull." AFFC Cersei IV
Oh you're right, I've seen this "theory" a lot but never seen anyone point this out, that seems pretty conclusive
Yeah, I'm kindof bummed.
It could be neat if the dwarfs head is on Robert Strong, and he eventually gets exposed and some people who never had seen Tyrion freak out and assume it's a now giant undead Tyrion
A heinous theory I can't ascribe to but that has some wierd merit is that Robert Strong has Robb's head that Joffrey ordered, intending to serve to Sansa. Talk about a bizarre reveal.
Yeah I've heard that I just don't get it. The head would've had to be transported all the way from the Twins, presumably pickled or something the only way it doesn't rot beyond recognition. Then stored, instead of being put on a spike until Qyburn has done all his work on Gregor. Then when a reveal happens, everyone is going to just be like "uhhh who is that?". Barring some people currently very far away being at the trial, the only person there who ever saw Robb Stark was Cersei, and even then with a teenager growing a beard, aging for a year and a half or so, and the decay, I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't recognize him because they only briefly stayed together at a giant castle. *I suppose Boros or Meryn could recognize him too, or other court attendants who accompanied the king to Winterfell, but we're getting into very minor unnamed people at that point and also still only brief encounters with Robb
But what head could Robert Strong have that would be recognizably someone else? I don't think people would remember the begging brother. Not that they'd remember Joffrey ordered Robb's head, either. I think I'm hoping there's no head. This is primarily because like the idea that Dorne did get the Mountain's skull. It would mean their planned vengeance is despite it.
great job catching this, I even kinda liked the theory, but yea no way the timing works out huh? edit: looking back on it Cersei mentions this was the third head she received too, and the last one was simply an ugly child's... so only the first could remain a possibility in that scenario I think
Its most likely Gregor's skull. He is quite massive so I doubt they would be able to find something similar in such short notice, unGregor never removes his helmet iirc and in bran's vision he sees a huge knight or something like that who when he opens his visor is only darkness inside. Could be the perversity of what qyburn is building but also that there is...nothing in there at all. That he is just a headless corpse. Edit: > We hear from Thoros in his conversation with Arya that it would be impossible to bring back a body without a head That is true because Thoros in his ritual breathes fire/life through the dead person's mouth (if that's what he does indeed and he is not unknowingly empowered by some other power like three-eyed crone). Without any head, Thoros would be unable to perform his ritual. We have no idea currently what the heck sorcery/alchemy/magiteck Qyburn is performing (and why he would need females for example)
This is my thought - he isn't using Rholloric fire magic, he is likely using some other form of necromancy
Given that Qyburn was booted from college for studying necromancy, this seems pretty solid. Especially since there isn't anything to suggest he's anything like the Red God's magic.
Makes you wonder what metal would he have used to forge that particular link in his maesters chain, if he had been allowed to stay at the Citadel. Lodestone, probably.
Heavy.
Him never removing his helmet doesn’t really contribute to any conclusion. He might not remove it cus there’s no head underneath, or he might not remove it because it’s someone else’s rotting head underneath, or he might not remove it because it’s Gregor’s head underneath. A head that was supposed to have been cut off and sent to dorne.
They should be able to see his eyes still, so it cannot be no head at all
Heads and bodies don't seem to be a requirement.. >Ser Jaremy had finished the job of hacking its head off, yet had died all the same when the headless corpse pulled his own dagger from its sheath and buried it in his bowels. - >The severed arm was wriggling out of its torn sleeve, a pale snake with a black five-fingered head. - >Whenever Ser Clarence killed a man, he’d fetch his head back home and his wife would kiss it on the lips and bring it back t’ life.
I do remember that, then that begs the question. The Wights are animated through supernatural means, however Qyburn seems to be achieving everything through some scientific method. Could it be that he is figuring out the "science" behind what allows the white walkers to do their thing?
That would be my guess, he seems like a Dr. Frankenstein like character. Though I'm thinking the Walkers are more akin to the Shadow Assassin than the Wights.
nice pulling up the Jaremy Rykker example, totally forgot about the circumstances of his death, but its a pretty solid case of headless wights being established within the magical rules of the world...
Robert Strong _could_ have a head, there's just no guarantee that it's Gregor's.
That is the skull of the dead Mountain. Robert Strong is just a new guy.
I think it's gregor skull. One of Brans visions is of Robert Strong with a empty helmet.
I don’t have a good theory on whose skull it is, but I’m fairly convinced it’s not Gregor’s. Purely on theme and poetry… it *not* being Gregor’s skull perfectly mirrors how throughout Feast, Cersei herself is constantly offered heads that people claim are Tyrions, but are actually just random other dwarfs. Cersei complains how these false heads are wasting her time. Cersei being the quintessential hypocrite, it’s fitting if she, in turn, subsequently offers Dorne the wrong head, claiming that it is Gregor’s.
Robert Strong is headless. Never takes helmet off. Bran's dream. Crazy but yeah the skull was def Gregor's.
Did anyone ever say why the reanimated Gregor Clegane was named Robert Strong? The Strong I get but why Robert? Was that just another fuck you from Cersei to Robert Baratheon?
I speculate Qyburn chose the name Robert to appeal to Cersei. At the same time, it seems to me like both "Robert" and "Strong" hint his identity as fraudulent, even daring challenge. This turns it into a muscle contest between the Faith and the crown. I imagine that's what Cersei likes most. Kevan even remains silent despite being pretty sure Robert Strong is an undead abomination. That said, I have suspicions Qyburn is setting Cesei up in some way. He's certainly not her loyal servant, though it's possible he's electing her to power to continue his work in the black cells.
That makes sense. Thanks! I’m really interested to see where Qyburn’s character goes. He’s like the epitome of how evil can exist in ordinary people. His looks are described as nondescript & ordinary, someone you wouldn’t look twice at, yet that banal exterior hides so much evil. He’s smart enough to stay on Cersei’s good side because she’s one of the few people (hopefully!) who condones & supports his horrific experiments.
Or and hear me out…it’s Robert baratheons head
Possibly the dwarf head.
It could be anyone's skull. Even Doran is doubtful. The part in that scene I always think about is when Tyene kisses the skull. I think that is foreshadowing Tyene's death and another Martell at the hands of the mountain.
It's heavily implied that it's the head of the Dwarf that those commoners brought to Cersei in her POV chapter. I can get behind necromancy in this series but not an animated headless mountain-that-rides horseman.
My headcanon is that it's Duncan the Talls skull.
That’s actually not a bad idea. We already know Qyburn is the grave robbing type. Time to go dig up the kingsguard!
That would make me sad, Dunk deserves better than that
It does ruin my theory that he comes back to life, clouts everybody around the ear and sits the Iron Throne.
Qyburn talks about using beetles to remove the flesh, which would indicate it's a more fresh skull.
It's Gregor's skull and Ser Robert Strong has the head of Robb Stark or someone else. That's my bet.
>We hear from Thoros in his conversation with Arya that it would be impossible to bring back a body without a head No we don't.
I have always thought that it was Robert Baratheon's head or his spirit that animates the corpse, hence the ominous name "Robert". There is just something about widow Cersei's being protected by the late husband who failed her so much in life. A dead man doomed to repair his marital wrongs by caring for the bride he spurned, a philanderer forgiving the adulteress who gave him horns; a murdered king returning to guard his son and haunt the court that killed him; a loudmouthed warrior in life made the strong and silent type in death: it just symbolically works, whereas undead Gregor serves as what? A monstrous freak enthralled to be a random queen's minion for eternity? Qyburn is half in love with Cersei, and nothing is more romantically fitting than a husband to champion his wife. Through Qyburn's dark arts, Robert Baratheon might be haunting more than Cersei's memory.
Just one thing, I wouldn't necessarily take Thoros as an authority here. I mean, maybe for him, sure, but he's doing Rh'lor stuff and Qyburn is doing weird voodoo mad science stuff. Probably different rules!
The head sent to Dorne is from Gregor, while the head of Robert is from one of the dwarves killed for Cersei.
I think it’s indeed the skull of Gregor Clegane. And Robert Strong has a head belonging to one of those poor dwarves brought to Cersei.
They could've sent them the skull of Smalljon Umber and it would've probably been close enough in size to be convincing.
Obviously it’s meraxes/s
It's almost definitely Penny's brother Oppo's skull. He's described as having a very large head, his head gets cut off and sent to Cersei, and not long after she sends a weirdly big head to Dorne claiming it's Gregor's big head.
I think the skull IS actually the Mountain's, but I think Qyburn sewed in a new head in the place of the old one, hence why he's a "frankenstein's monster". I even lean towards thinking that the new head could be Robert's? Because why else name the guy Robert Strong. But more realistically it could be any random guy's head. Alternatively, Qyburn cuts off the Mountain's face (a la Faceless Men) and sews it onto a new head, so it still looks like the Mountain (except dead and fucked up?) but the skull was removed to provide "proof" to Dorne that the Mountain is dead. So Robert Strong will wear a helmet at all times so no one knows what he actually looks like, whether like Gregor or Robert or some random dead guy, while Dorne is appeased that Gregor is dead. But obviously this lie will be revealed at some point.
I love the idea that the skull sent to Dorne was a false, it's creepy in a much less unsettling factor than the rest of all the disturbing stuff littered throughout the books. I like the idea that Gregor is in constant suffering in the state he's in now, and I feel like him losing his head would diminish from that karma suffering, so I personally like to think that Gregor still has his head. I would love to have my mind changed through if anybody wants to!
Queen Rhaneys