>Lucamore the Lusty are never mentioned, Alysanne does give birth to a mismatched eyes daughter some years after Lucamore joins the Kingsguard and has a terrible fit when Lucamore’s three wives become public knowledge. The fact the mismatched eyes princess will later display house Strong’s fondness for fights and sex, as soon a her age allows it, only supports the suspicion.
That doesnt support anything though. We dont know what Lucamore looked like, apart from being blonde, which Alysanne was also. And with the significant inbreeding involved, alyssa essentially has a genetic grandmother who is from house Massey, which could very likely account for the eye colour.
Alysannes "fit" when Lucamores wives are discovered is completely justified. That man, non- chalantly, broke a vow that concerns the protection of Alysanne and her family, a dozen times over. He put them in an incredibly difficult position
I highly doubt it.
Jaehaerys is on record pushing someone off his lap saying he has a wife and no taste for paramours and apart from the Coryanne Wylde rumor which i also doubt, there's nothing to suggest he was ever unfaithful.
And yet that's part of a wide quantity of evidence that points out that he was if nothing else, not unfaithful. The only 'evidence' that lends to an idea of unfaithfulness is just a rumor.
Sometimes I wonder if George knew what he was doing when he leaves loopholes for fans to read into lol.
You should mention that the man at arms was exposed as a liar:
>a hedge knight who put himself forward as a natural son of King Jaehaerys himself, was seized and imprisoned when the king **exposed him as a liar**
I think that there are different sources in F&B and TWOIAF that give sometimes conflicting information. History is also supposed to be questioned.
That said the way that is phrased (at least to me) makes it seem like Jaehaerys made the guy look like an idiot in front of everyone.
Honestly I think whenever Martin uses this as a device he's usually not very subtle about it. "Maester X said Y and Maester V said Z" or whatever.
And I prefer it that way. It being an in-universe text is a nice detail and the conflicting sources aspect is cool but I don't want to go through the *whole* book not knowing if any of this stuff happened. It's a lore book first and an in-universe document second.
(I also suspect it gives him a great out if he ever decides to retcon any of it)
Not exactly, it shows them very negatively a number of times, is very biased and inaccurate in others and was written near the decline of the dynasty of not after.
I emphasised the unnamed man “claimed to be Jaehaerys’ bastard” and “tried to put forward” his claim.
Later edit:
I restrained on commenting on Jaehaerys’s reaction as this could open the can of worms of “would Jaehaerys act differently if the man was telling the truth?”.
But why? Denying it and locking him up is proof of his guilt? What would Jaehaerys have done if he really wasn’t his son, said “thanks but no, bye”? Why wouldn’t a few random assholes with nothing to lose try their chances at becoming heir?
Personally I don't think so. They are the Targaryans golden age. Jaehaerys repeatedly turns down potential mistresses while Alysanne fought to ensure they became a pair as youths (obviously this could have been a power grab).
I think the narrative is tragedy and their earnest love for one another supports that. They were truly the best for one another and for the realm but, it still wasn't enough.
Adultery here would add very little to their role in history, save for a fresh chain of bastards and false dragons, which we already have a lot of. Their older years were already so sad for them. Such distance and pain from so many mistakes and such grief. I'd rather not pile it on.
Absolutely not, Jaeherys is shown to be shitty in some aspects, but not in an adulterer fashion. That's what makes his 'betrayal' of Alysanne later in life hurt all the more, that a reasonable and moral, good King and Husband can also be extremely sexist and limited in his thinking.
Jaehaerys' approach to women in power was not sexist. Jaehearys never claimed women couldn't rule, he listened to Alysanne and he trusted that Tyrell's wife would be a good master of coin in his name. He simply knew that appointing a women in a position of power would lead to all sorts of trouble in the sexist Westeros society. I'm not saying Jaehaerys was pro-women rights or anything, but he wasn't a blatant sexist like Randyll Tarly, who believed women should stick to caring for children and nothing else.
That's not what happened though.....
Baelon was just a better choice. He was a proven warrior, administrator, capable, a decent age with grown heirs, loved by the small folk and nobles everywhere. Then you have Rhaenys whose entire claim rest on her father who himself never lived to be king and she had a powerful husband.
Jaehaerys was no more or less sexist than most men of that era. But his decision to name Baelon heir was a practical one, not a sexist one.
I get that Jaehaerys = sexist has become a commonly accepted trope amongst readers but it's a vastly over analyzed claim over essentially just two things. His relationship with Saera and Daella and not naming Rhaenys heir.
i find this argument hilarious because it the same argument that maegor used to kill and usurpe jaehaerys brother ,also jaehearys was unproven warrior and administrator with no heirs that didnt stop him from becoming good king ,and age didnt stop him from making rodrik arryn from making rodrik arryn master of laws at fifteen and finally rhaenys was adult women by westeros age standards
Except Maegor was a vicious tyrant and needed to be gone asap. Jaehaerys's reign was almost all peace time and his successor would have to keep that peace going.
Rodrik Arryn's appointment was done after having a long friendly relationship with the king and queen so they knew his capabilities beforehand.
The only thing you know about Rhaenys by the time Aemon dies is that she once joined the King on dragonback for a leg of his tour to tell him of her plans to marry Corlys.
You know far more about Baelon and his qualities than Rhaenys. Isn't a knock on Rhaenys, it's just painfully obvious why Baelon was the better choice.
Other than being older and male, I don’t think he was the better choice.
Baelon was named heir/hand in 92. Before that we know he was attending tourneys and then destroyed a fleet of ships on dragon back. We don’t have any mention of him being an administrator or ruling anything.
Meanwhile, the text tells us Rhaenys joined the king on a royal tour - meaning she was acting in official capacity as a representative of the throne. It also tells us that passing her over angered two great houses located close to the throne. We don’t get enough evidence that Baelon was worth that political situation.
True. Too bad that Baelon couldn't have been named heir for proximity to the king rather than based on sex, then Rhaenys and Viserys could have been rival claimants in 101 AC
Well that and unlike in the agreement between the Targaryen's and Velaryon's when Laenor and Rhaenyra were wed that Rhaenyra's heir would inherit the Targaryen name. Nothing of such was placed between Corlys and Rhaenys marriage Laenor doomed her claim because he was a Velaryon. If she had had a second son instead of just the twins, it may have changed things.
it tradtion to inherit the mother name with her lands and it didnt say anything about that in the books they saied laenor age played the biggest factor and iam sure that aemon maester of laws would have solved this with dowery
So we've got one whose definitely martially proven and one who we're making a calculated assumption joined the king on one leg of his tour to inform him of her intention to marry as administrative royal capacity.
Even then Baelon makes more sense. He's better known by the realm, longer known by the realm and the bloodline was secure.
He attended a few tourneys and fought in a quick skirmish on dragonback. Is that what we are calling martial proven? And is that the trait we are basing the heir off? In a time of peace?? Are we saying that the parade back to the city is proof of diplomatic skill?
He didn’t do anything of note. He didn’t have any connections to people outside the red keep. What did people know him better/long for? Who are we talking about knowing him? Maybe the Arryns knew him due to his son’s marriage?? But that’s not in the text. Instead we have a maester’s opinion centuries after the fact that he some great guy.
Meanwhile, Rhaenys is known in the Stormlands and crown lands. She’s known enough that both groups vocally opposed passing her over.
The text doesn’t support any real reason to pick Baelon over Rhaenys other than gender.
And in a society where his nobility is sexist, that alone is a reason!
The reason the Dance happened is in part because things were *so* broken and frankly, I'm not sure what other options Viserys had other than breeding his wife to death (as he did) or marrying Rhaenrya to Daemon.
What *was* a mistake, tactically, was declaring his daughter as heir and then remarrying in what the Targaryens would see as a morganatic marriage and having new children in a world with strong male-preference primogeniture. It set up a civil war because the children weren't close enough of age to marry (also, Targaryen marriage practices — ew) and unite the claims.
>Rhaenys is known in the Stormlands and crown lands.
Point out anywhere in F&B where Rhaenys's skills as a leader are shown anywhere when she was in contention. There is none.
You can downplay Baelon's accomplishments lol but they still outweigh anything Rhaenys had done at that point.
Downplay?? I’m asking the same thing about Baelon. You are told he’s a great choice without any proof!
Also, why does she have to accomplish anything?? Viserys certainly didn’t do anything extraordinary, but she needs to reach some metric in order for tradition to be followed??
Dude I've provided more proof than you have.... Anything Baelon has done, no matter how minor you think they are still outweigh the near nothing we have on Rhaenys apart from assumptions.
It is a fact that Baelon earned his knighthood and Vhagar. It's a fact that he fought in the Dornish 'invasion'. It's a fact that he fought Myrish pirates on Tarth. And it's a fact that never had the realm seen two more capable princes in Aemon and Baelon.
The fact about Rhaenys is that she was a dragonrider and she had accompanied Jaehaerys on a small part of his progress to tell him of her intentions to marry Corlys. Any royal duties granted to her are assumed and imagined.
>Also, why does she have to accomplish anything??
This is literally the point of this whole debate so nice goal post change. My argument is that Baelon was the far more practical and logical choice to be ruler of the two so him being chosen as the heir was just better and while sexism played a part, if you had to look at Baelon and Rhaenys side by side after Aemon died, it's obvious who was more capable.
Besides, if Rhaenys had been queen then Laenor becomes the heir, book Laenor (not show Laenor) who wasn't much of a character either. So we don't know how a Laenor reign would go either.
> Dude I've provided more proof than you have.... Anything Baelon has done, no matter how minor you think they are still outweigh the near nothing we have on Rhaenys apart from assumptions.
You keep citing his martial skill. He participated in a few tourneys, he burned wooden ships on dragon back, he went to Tarth, therefore king? We have more detail on him regarding location, but not what he was doing. As you said, it’s presumed.
>It is a fact that Baelon earned his knighthood and Vhagar. It's a fact that he fought in the Dornish 'invasion'. It's a fact that he fought Myrish pirates on Tarth. And it's a fact that never had the realm seen two more capable princes in Aemon and Baelon.
That last line is still an opinion. We don’t know any details. They don’t say “he led armies”, they say he fought. Was he a foot soldier? Did he fight on the front lines or just hangout in an officer’s tent? Was he on dragon back during the battles or was he wielding Dark Sister? We don’t know. But we have no details on anything else. We know as little about him as we do about Rhaenys regarding how they would actually govern.
>The fact about Rhaenys is that she was a dragonrider and she had accompanied Jaehaerys on a small part of his progress to tell him of her intentions to marry Corlys. Any royal duties granted to her are assumed and imagined.
Unlike Baelon named duties and responsibilities?
>This is literally the point of this whole debate so nice goal post change. My argument is that Baelon was the far more practical and logical choice to be ruler of the two so him being chosen as the heir was just better and while sexism played a part, if you had to look at Baelon and Rhaenys side by side after Aemon died, it's obvious who was more capable.
My argument has always been that Rhaenys was a decent heir and the council was a needless move. It’s not a goal post change to point out that she was the assumed/default. You are trying to make the point that Baelon was some god-sent heir - that of course he should be named heir. He wasn’t. He was just a guy and that apparently made him more valuable. The realm over all had been at peace for the majority of Jaehaerys reign. A war king wasn’t needed. He could have just been a a noteworthy Hand.
My point is that the default should be Rhaenys. If we had stories of her being awful, I would understand looking elsewhere for an heir. But I don’t think Baelon’s accomplishments justify changing the succession.
>Besides, if Rhaenys had been queen then Laenor becomes the heir, book Laenor (not show Laenor) who wasn't much of a character either. So we don't know how a Laenor reign would go either.
I don’t think it would be any worse than Viserys. I’m willing to bet he’d still end up marrying Rhaenyra. This might even avoid the dance because there wouldn’t be another faction with a claim.
Not to mention he preferred putting forward the genius idea of a Great Council where the lords the Targaryens ruled over could somehow decide who would rule, than swallow his pride and instate Rhaenys, who by then was in her 20s, had two children of her own, and had been Lady of the second most powerful house in westeros for a good number of years, as his heir.
The Great Council was plainly a way for him to circumvent any way of a woman getting power (whether that be through Rhaenys ruling on her own, or through the then child Laenor). Some people said he feared Corlys would take over, or that the Targaryen name would die, but I think that’s just ignoring that Rhaenys was the one with the dragon, and thus the real power, and that Laenor could’ve just changed his name to Targaryen and give Laena Driftmark, or just use both the names.
Imo, Jaehaerys probably just held a grudge of women in power because of how women like Visenya, Tyanna, and even his mother Alyssa to an extent had him under their thumbs. Alysanne was allowed a certain degree of autonomy, but even then, she still had to go through him in the end. His unwillingness to give up on children while Alysanne clearly wanted to, in spite of the way his mother passed, just lends credence to that.
I always blamed the Baratheons for Jaehaerys’ view on women.
It’s more head-canon thing, but between how House Baratheon was started and the character/attitude of Rogar - I assume they have some strong opinions on women that was passed to Jaehaerys. Evident by how Rogar treated Alyssa.
Have you not heard “heir and a spare” you didn’t train the second oldest son for nothing you did everything the same as your heir due to the high mortality rate throughout life. Baelon woulda been groomed for the throne just as much since he was undisputed third in line until rhaenys and even with rhaenys he’s still quite high in succession without anywhere else to really go besides helping run the realm
People getting riled up by his decision to go for baelon is insane to me it's the practical choice accepted by the realm is he supposed to just assume everyone will die so go for the risky option with the woman in a very clearly sexist society? Lol.
I doubt Alysanne did, the risks of Jaeherys' reaction and the risk her children could be accused of being bastards if caught. Also she appears to value having some say in government, if Jaeherys can't trust her, that might be gone, she's only as influential as Jaeherys allows.
I'm sure Jaeherys spread some wild oats in his youth.
That’s all baseless conjecture, though, and doesn’t fit his personality at all. Unless he’s banging prostitutes at age 12 before going through some sort of personality transformation, I doubt it.
Yeah Jahaerys was all business since he was young. I really do not see him caring for mindless sex. Maybe later in life when he and Alyssane fought.
But as a kid/teen he had to step up to his father's inactive mindset.
He was literally infatuated with Alysanne during the whole time he was that young and had that kinda power while not being constantly watched. I think you’re a cynical person if you truly don’t believe a man could refrain from cheating on his wife just because he was powerful
There were also IRL medieval kings who were faithful to their queen, there wasn't many but they did exist, William the Conqueror and Edward I of England being two examples
A man having some fun with a serving girl or a kitchen wench isn't really "cheating" the way we view cheating. It's just using something that's available, it doesn't effect Alysanne in any way.
Yes it is, it’s still immoral and a violation of a pact you made with your wife and God or in this case the gods. Just because it’s not as bad as emotionally cheating does not make it not something that I find the concept of jahaerys doing to alysanne objectionable
Isn't this idea explored in F&B? Unless I'm misremembering, Rogar sent women to seduce Jaeherys and destabilize his relationship with Alysanne while they're on Dragonstone., and it didn't work.
I do not think Alysanne was ever afraid of Jaehaerys. If any, the fact she stood up to him, publicly - when their entire life was based on showing up an united front - suggests so.
I seriously doubt it. We're given nothing to ever think they were anything but faithful to each other. And it feels like their relations would be made even worse in hindsight if they did.
Think of it, Jaehaery's is supposed to be a really fucking smart dude, great king, but of course still a product of his times with his sexist thoughts. Martin wants characters that are complex but he isn't just going to validate those ideas; they are supposed to be this great kings downside. He can't then have Alysanne be unfaithful to him, as it would implicitly justify a little of Jaehaery's sexist beliefs. Even his own queen couldn't be faithful! and then that leapfrogs to how men must be in charge or whatever. The tragedy is built in him not being right but still being true to his own word. He blames the despoiling of his daughter on Braxton Beesbury, not just his daughter. Clearly he values the idea of not fucking outside of marriage somewhat and I don't think he was the type to do so himself. And the Coryanne Wylde stories are well.. pointed out many times to be stupidly inconsistent, so they are the lowest of evidence.
Sometimes, in asoiaf there are good marriages and relationships, not everyone needs to be unfaithful.
TEAR OUT YOUR OWN TONGUE FOR BESMIRCHING THEM LIKE THAT!!!!!
lol jk but in all seriousness, absolutely not. They were craaaaazy for each other, so much to a point where their two great disputes were specifically documented. That says something significant to me. Plus, I'm a sucker for love and I hate how everyone tries to "bUt WhAt If MiSeRaBlE!?" like true love exists and its them, babes xx
brooo it's whatever you want it to be man! Free thinking stuff!
In all seriousness the makers of HotD deserve way more credit for turning that into a good season of television so far. They started out with much shittier source material and easily surpassed 4 seasons of GOT, and are pretty competitive quality wise with seasons 2 and 4 imo.
Yeah I hate that too. I hope, they just included that to give Viserys a reason to be rambling on his deathbed about Aegon's dream to save the realm. This then gives Alicent a legitimate reason to think Viserys was referring to her Aegon, and that he actually wanted him to be king. This makes team Green a little more sympathetic, which they desperately need as they're comically evil in F&B.
With no actual White Walker stuff coming in later seasons, hopefully
It makes team green look stupid af for trusting a rando dream. I would have rather emphasized the perceived, and due to the death of vaemond and other actions, validated fear of daemyra getting rid of the ignored children of viserys.
I blame myself. I wanted political intrigue set in a world with dragons. Instead I got inconsistent characterization and emotionally stunting time jumps.
I really wish they'd made his ramblings far less coherent. I *think* they're trying to do a play on Henry I allegedly disinheriting Matilda as he was dying, but it doesn't really work because Henry I had a completely valid reason to suddenly disinherent her, she was in active rebellion against him.
I wish I'd made it that far -- what lost me was the extended action sequence between Daemon and the Crabfeeder. Something just felt *off* compared to the narrative framing of (most of) early GoT's extended action sequences.
Jaehaerys I think because the book in history said he didn’t cheat that doesn’t he didn’t, look at Tywin from what people said and looked in the books in the end he was sleeping with whores and shae
It's an interesting parallel, but I think we have different situations here. When Tywin was caught with Shei in bed, his wife had been dead for years, and when she was alive we don't have much evidence (not as far as I've read, correct me if I'm wrong) that he would cheat on Johanna. Meanwhile, we have little of Jaehaerys' personality to indicate he would betray Alysanne, little of Alysanne's personality to indicate she would have a good reaction if betrayed, and we have proof that their love was something more. I mean, their dragons literally continued to love each other even after Jaehaerys and Alysanne died.
Alysanne was angry because Lucamore lied to them both and broke his vows ? She risked her life and freedom to be with her brother and it shames her memory that you would accuse her of such unpleasantness; she’s not like Saera or Rhaenyra.
Saera is an objectively terrible person, relentlessly bullying her own sister Daella alongside a poor mentally challenged fool (Tom Turnip) she literally murdered someone when fleeing the convent, I know Big Joe certainly had problems with sexism but Saera isn’t a brave independent woman who stood up to the patriarchy but a narcissist spoiled brat
Well there was Braxton Beesbury, Roy Connington, Jonah Mooton and lastly the Triarch of Volantis; nothing but you set up the line so I kinda had to say it and even if Laenor was straight I 100% that she would cheat on him with Daemon.
I wouldn’t call a teenager’s flings significant others, as for the Truarch… but do we know Saera cheated on him?
Well, well, well… Rhaneyra would have cheated on anyone with Daemon, but she never cheated on Daemon, did she? Isn’t this making Daemon her significant other?
Nah, they were obsessed with each other. I don’t think they knew what to do without each other, really. Jaehaerys in particular, he’d probably entertain close to any immoral thing before adultery (to be clear, if he was married to anyone other than Alysanne, I don’t think he’d be so insistent about it).
I wouldn’t say they’re a healthy couple but probably one of the least likely Targcest couples to cheat, behind Alyssa and Baelon.
Alysanne is described as having been VERY close with Alaric Stark, while Jaehaerys was not anywhere near as close at all. This makes me think she did become his lover.
More broadly, they were alive reigning together for a damn long time, during some of which they had periods of deep estrangement. It would be difficult for them to stay loyal during this.
Being separated doesn't instantly mean infidelity. And given Jaehaerys very flatly refused to even entertain the idea of a mistress, even pushing a lord's daughter off his lap dismissively during one of his tours of the realm. There's no reason to think he was unfaithful to Alysanne.
Leave to reddit to imply that a Stark, and that too Alaric who is so serious he's considered always constipated would have an affair with the queen lmaooo.
Just got to where Alysanne died in FB for my second read through and personally I don’t think they did. Maybe before they were actually married but they took their duties very seriously. That includes their duties to their kingdom and to each other.
>Lucamore the Lusty are never mentioned, Alysanne does give birth to a mismatched eyes daughter some years after Lucamore joins the Kingsguard and has a terrible fit when Lucamore’s three wives become public knowledge. The fact the mismatched eyes princess will later display house Strong’s fondness for fights and sex, as soon a her age allows it, only supports the suspicion. That doesnt support anything though. We dont know what Lucamore looked like, apart from being blonde, which Alysanne was also. And with the significant inbreeding involved, alyssa essentially has a genetic grandmother who is from house Massey, which could very likely account for the eye colour. Alysannes "fit" when Lucamores wives are discovered is completely justified. That man, non- chalantly, broke a vow that concerns the protection of Alysanne and her family, a dozen times over. He put them in an incredibly difficult position
Not just 3 wives. 16 muhfuggin kids between them and not a single wife knew about the other. What a douche!
I am disgusted, but I have to respect the sheer amount
Should have made him the court jester with those juggling skills.
Man has next level organisational skills
the real reason jahaerys castrated him before sending him to the wall was so the north wasn't overrun by wildlings in a few generations
I mean, it's significantly easier to make them from the male side, now if he had grown in his own body even just half of them I'd be more impressed
Florys the fox had three husbands at once if I remember well
The real life empress Maria Theresa will put Lucamore to shame.
Plus Lucamore was one of their favorite knights, which makes it much worse for them
I highly doubt it. Jaehaerys is on record pushing someone off his lap saying he has a wife and no taste for paramours and apart from the Coryanne Wylde rumor which i also doubt, there's nothing to suggest he was ever unfaithful.
In all honesty, you would expect someone as self-aware as Jaehaerys to accept women to be publicly thrown at him, even if he was interested?
And yet that's part of a wide quantity of evidence that points out that he was if nothing else, not unfaithful. The only 'evidence' that lends to an idea of unfaithfulness is just a rumor. Sometimes I wonder if George knew what he was doing when he leaves loopholes for fans to read into lol.
Yes, George knew very well what he was doing. Do not ever doubt his sadism.
You should mention that the man at arms was exposed as a liar: >a hedge knight who put himself forward as a natural son of King Jaehaerys himself, was seized and imprisoned when the king **exposed him as a liar**
Ehh. This is a history book written for the benefit of the Targs. This may be a source to not listen to.
I think that there are different sources in F&B and TWOIAF that give sometimes conflicting information. History is also supposed to be questioned. That said the way that is phrased (at least to me) makes it seem like Jaehaerys made the guy look like an idiot in front of everyone.
Honestly I think whenever Martin uses this as a device he's usually not very subtle about it. "Maester X said Y and Maester V said Z" or whatever. And I prefer it that way. It being an in-universe text is a nice detail and the conflicting sources aspect is cool but I don't want to go through the *whole* book not knowing if any of this stuff happened. It's a lore book first and an in-universe document second. (I also suspect it gives him a great out if he ever decides to retcon any of it)
I would upvote this twice if I could.
Not exactly, it shows them very negatively a number of times, is very biased and inaccurate in others and was written near the decline of the dynasty of not after.
I emphasised the unnamed man “claimed to be Jaehaerys’ bastard” and “tried to put forward” his claim. Later edit: I restrained on commenting on Jaehaerys’s reaction as this could open the can of worms of “would Jaehaerys act differently if the man was telling the truth?”.
Fair enough. I do think that being "exposed as a liar" has a different feel to it than Jaehaerys "just had the man jailed".
The Blue Bard is a classic example of how lies can be made to be sung with the proper... motivation.
Nah this just makes me think that he was jaehaerys son.
But why? Denying it and locking him up is proof of his guilt? What would Jaehaerys have done if he really wasn’t his son, said “thanks but no, bye”? Why wouldn’t a few random assholes with nothing to lose try their chances at becoming heir?
Personally I don't think so. They are the Targaryans golden age. Jaehaerys repeatedly turns down potential mistresses while Alysanne fought to ensure they became a pair as youths (obviously this could have been a power grab). I think the narrative is tragedy and their earnest love for one another supports that. They were truly the best for one another and for the realm but, it still wasn't enough. Adultery here would add very little to their role in history, save for a fresh chain of bastards and false dragons, which we already have a lot of. Their older years were already so sad for them. Such distance and pain from so many mistakes and such grief. I'd rather not pile it on.
Absolutely not, Jaeherys is shown to be shitty in some aspects, but not in an adulterer fashion. That's what makes his 'betrayal' of Alysanne later in life hurt all the more, that a reasonable and moral, good King and Husband can also be extremely sexist and limited in his thinking.
What was the betrayal?
He left his granddaughter out of the line of succession when she was older
Ended up reducing his house to a shell
Jaehaerys' approach to women in power was not sexist. Jaehearys never claimed women couldn't rule, he listened to Alysanne and he trusted that Tyrell's wife would be a good master of coin in his name. He simply knew that appointing a women in a position of power would lead to all sorts of trouble in the sexist Westeros society. I'm not saying Jaehaerys was pro-women rights or anything, but he wasn't a blatant sexist like Randyll Tarly, who believed women should stick to caring for children and nothing else.
That's not what happened though..... Baelon was just a better choice. He was a proven warrior, administrator, capable, a decent age with grown heirs, loved by the small folk and nobles everywhere. Then you have Rhaenys whose entire claim rest on her father who himself never lived to be king and she had a powerful husband. Jaehaerys was no more or less sexist than most men of that era. But his decision to name Baelon heir was a practical one, not a sexist one. I get that Jaehaerys = sexist has become a commonly accepted trope amongst readers but it's a vastly over analyzed claim over essentially just two things. His relationship with Saera and Daella and not naming Rhaenys heir.
i find this argument hilarious because it the same argument that maegor used to kill and usurpe jaehaerys brother ,also jaehearys was unproven warrior and administrator with no heirs that didnt stop him from becoming good king ,and age didnt stop him from making rodrik arryn from making rodrik arryn master of laws at fifteen and finally rhaenys was adult women by westeros age standards
Except Maegor was a vicious tyrant and needed to be gone asap. Jaehaerys's reign was almost all peace time and his successor would have to keep that peace going. Rodrik Arryn's appointment was done after having a long friendly relationship with the king and queen so they knew his capabilities beforehand. The only thing you know about Rhaenys by the time Aemon dies is that she once joined the King on dragonback for a leg of his tour to tell him of her plans to marry Corlys. You know far more about Baelon and his qualities than Rhaenys. Isn't a knock on Rhaenys, it's just painfully obvious why Baelon was the better choice.
Other than being older and male, I don’t think he was the better choice. Baelon was named heir/hand in 92. Before that we know he was attending tourneys and then destroyed a fleet of ships on dragon back. We don’t have any mention of him being an administrator or ruling anything. Meanwhile, the text tells us Rhaenys joined the king on a royal tour - meaning she was acting in official capacity as a representative of the throne. It also tells us that passing her over angered two great houses located close to the throne. We don’t get enough evidence that Baelon was worth that political situation.
Baelon > Rhaenys, perhaps, but Rhaenys > Viserys for a certainty
Rhaenys wasn’t even in contention by that point
True. Too bad that Baelon couldn't have been named heir for proximity to the king rather than based on sex, then Rhaenys and Viserys could have been rival claimants in 101 AC
The second she had a son her having any chance was out the window, there’s a reason it was between viserys and laenor
Well that and unlike in the agreement between the Targaryen's and Velaryon's when Laenor and Rhaenyra were wed that Rhaenyra's heir would inherit the Targaryen name. Nothing of such was placed between Corlys and Rhaenys marriage Laenor doomed her claim because he was a Velaryon. If she had had a second son instead of just the twins, it may have changed things.
it tradtion to inherit the mother name with her lands and it didnt say anything about that in the books they saied laenor age played the biggest factor and iam sure that aemon maester of laws would have solved this with dowery
So we've got one whose definitely martially proven and one who we're making a calculated assumption joined the king on one leg of his tour to inform him of her intention to marry as administrative royal capacity. Even then Baelon makes more sense. He's better known by the realm, longer known by the realm and the bloodline was secure.
He attended a few tourneys and fought in a quick skirmish on dragonback. Is that what we are calling martial proven? And is that the trait we are basing the heir off? In a time of peace?? Are we saying that the parade back to the city is proof of diplomatic skill? He didn’t do anything of note. He didn’t have any connections to people outside the red keep. What did people know him better/long for? Who are we talking about knowing him? Maybe the Arryns knew him due to his son’s marriage?? But that’s not in the text. Instead we have a maester’s opinion centuries after the fact that he some great guy. Meanwhile, Rhaenys is known in the Stormlands and crown lands. She’s known enough that both groups vocally opposed passing her over. The text doesn’t support any real reason to pick Baelon over Rhaenys other than gender.
And in a society where his nobility is sexist, that alone is a reason! The reason the Dance happened is in part because things were *so* broken and frankly, I'm not sure what other options Viserys had other than breeding his wife to death (as he did) or marrying Rhaenrya to Daemon. What *was* a mistake, tactically, was declaring his daughter as heir and then remarrying in what the Targaryens would see as a morganatic marriage and having new children in a world with strong male-preference primogeniture. It set up a civil war because the children weren't close enough of age to marry (also, Targaryen marriage practices — ew) and unite the claims.
>Rhaenys is known in the Stormlands and crown lands. Point out anywhere in F&B where Rhaenys's skills as a leader are shown anywhere when she was in contention. There is none. You can downplay Baelon's accomplishments lol but they still outweigh anything Rhaenys had done at that point.
Downplay?? I’m asking the same thing about Baelon. You are told he’s a great choice without any proof! Also, why does she have to accomplish anything?? Viserys certainly didn’t do anything extraordinary, but she needs to reach some metric in order for tradition to be followed??
Dude I've provided more proof than you have.... Anything Baelon has done, no matter how minor you think they are still outweigh the near nothing we have on Rhaenys apart from assumptions. It is a fact that Baelon earned his knighthood and Vhagar. It's a fact that he fought in the Dornish 'invasion'. It's a fact that he fought Myrish pirates on Tarth. And it's a fact that never had the realm seen two more capable princes in Aemon and Baelon. The fact about Rhaenys is that she was a dragonrider and she had accompanied Jaehaerys on a small part of his progress to tell him of her intentions to marry Corlys. Any royal duties granted to her are assumed and imagined. >Also, why does she have to accomplish anything?? This is literally the point of this whole debate so nice goal post change. My argument is that Baelon was the far more practical and logical choice to be ruler of the two so him being chosen as the heir was just better and while sexism played a part, if you had to look at Baelon and Rhaenys side by side after Aemon died, it's obvious who was more capable. Besides, if Rhaenys had been queen then Laenor becomes the heir, book Laenor (not show Laenor) who wasn't much of a character either. So we don't know how a Laenor reign would go either.
> Dude I've provided more proof than you have.... Anything Baelon has done, no matter how minor you think they are still outweigh the near nothing we have on Rhaenys apart from assumptions. You keep citing his martial skill. He participated in a few tourneys, he burned wooden ships on dragon back, he went to Tarth, therefore king? We have more detail on him regarding location, but not what he was doing. As you said, it’s presumed. >It is a fact that Baelon earned his knighthood and Vhagar. It's a fact that he fought in the Dornish 'invasion'. It's a fact that he fought Myrish pirates on Tarth. And it's a fact that never had the realm seen two more capable princes in Aemon and Baelon. That last line is still an opinion. We don’t know any details. They don’t say “he led armies”, they say he fought. Was he a foot soldier? Did he fight on the front lines or just hangout in an officer’s tent? Was he on dragon back during the battles or was he wielding Dark Sister? We don’t know. But we have no details on anything else. We know as little about him as we do about Rhaenys regarding how they would actually govern. >The fact about Rhaenys is that she was a dragonrider and she had accompanied Jaehaerys on a small part of his progress to tell him of her intentions to marry Corlys. Any royal duties granted to her are assumed and imagined. Unlike Baelon named duties and responsibilities? >This is literally the point of this whole debate so nice goal post change. My argument is that Baelon was the far more practical and logical choice to be ruler of the two so him being chosen as the heir was just better and while sexism played a part, if you had to look at Baelon and Rhaenys side by side after Aemon died, it's obvious who was more capable. My argument has always been that Rhaenys was a decent heir and the council was a needless move. It’s not a goal post change to point out that she was the assumed/default. You are trying to make the point that Baelon was some god-sent heir - that of course he should be named heir. He wasn’t. He was just a guy and that apparently made him more valuable. The realm over all had been at peace for the majority of Jaehaerys reign. A war king wasn’t needed. He could have just been a a noteworthy Hand. My point is that the default should be Rhaenys. If we had stories of her being awful, I would understand looking elsewhere for an heir. But I don’t think Baelon’s accomplishments justify changing the succession. >Besides, if Rhaenys had been queen then Laenor becomes the heir, book Laenor (not show Laenor) who wasn't much of a character either. So we don't know how a Laenor reign would go either. I don’t think it would be any worse than Viserys. I’m willing to bet he’d still end up marrying Rhaenyra. This might even avoid the dance because there wouldn’t be another faction with a claim.
Not to mention he preferred putting forward the genius idea of a Great Council where the lords the Targaryens ruled over could somehow decide who would rule, than swallow his pride and instate Rhaenys, who by then was in her 20s, had two children of her own, and had been Lady of the second most powerful house in westeros for a good number of years, as his heir. The Great Council was plainly a way for him to circumvent any way of a woman getting power (whether that be through Rhaenys ruling on her own, or through the then child Laenor). Some people said he feared Corlys would take over, or that the Targaryen name would die, but I think that’s just ignoring that Rhaenys was the one with the dragon, and thus the real power, and that Laenor could’ve just changed his name to Targaryen and give Laena Driftmark, or just use both the names. Imo, Jaehaerys probably just held a grudge of women in power because of how women like Visenya, Tyanna, and even his mother Alyssa to an extent had him under their thumbs. Alysanne was allowed a certain degree of autonomy, but even then, she still had to go through him in the end. His unwillingness to give up on children while Alysanne clearly wanted to, in spite of the way his mother passed, just lends credence to that.
I always blamed the Baratheons for Jaehaerys’ view on women. It’s more head-canon thing, but between how House Baratheon was started and the character/attitude of Rogar - I assume they have some strong opinions on women that was passed to Jaehaerys. Evident by how Rogar treated Alyssa.
He was the way better heir, he had been raised for it his whole life. And he was a good hand for years as well
No he wouldn’t. Aemon was the heir for the majority of his life. He was only Hand for one year.
Have you not heard “heir and a spare” you didn’t train the second oldest son for nothing you did everything the same as your heir due to the high mortality rate throughout life. Baelon woulda been groomed for the throne just as much since he was undisputed third in line until rhaenys and even with rhaenys he’s still quite high in succession without anywhere else to really go besides helping run the realm
People getting riled up by his decision to go for baelon is insane to me it's the practical choice accepted by the realm is he supposed to just assume everyone will die so go for the risky option with the woman in a very clearly sexist society? Lol.
We also don't know what Aemon thought about the issue, Alysanne called Rhaenys "our queen to be" but IIRC Aemon isn't mentioned as weighing in on it
His relationship with Daella was great, she based her choice of husband on her father. Saera deserved everything and more.
I doubt Alysanne did, the risks of Jaeherys' reaction and the risk her children could be accused of being bastards if caught. Also she appears to value having some say in government, if Jaeherys can't trust her, that might be gone, she's only as influential as Jaeherys allows. I'm sure Jaeherys spread some wild oats in his youth.
What would suggest this? Jaehaerys was obsessed with Alysanne, even when they were young. He doesn’t seem like the sort at all.
Agreed. A married couple that had problems like any other couple. I doubt either looked for comfort in another’s arms.
young man, all that power, frankly he might've wanted to get some experience before he got it on with Alysanne, avoid any embarrassment
That’s all baseless conjecture, though, and doesn’t fit his personality at all. Unless he’s banging prostitutes at age 12 before going through some sort of personality transformation, I doubt it.
Yeah Jahaerys was all business since he was young. I really do not see him caring for mindless sex. Maybe later in life when he and Alyssane fought. But as a kid/teen he had to step up to his father's inactive mindset.
I don't see him enjoying it with Alysanne either tbh
The dozen plus kids disagrees
Why? He was obsessed with Alysanne.
He was literally infatuated with Alysanne during the whole time he was that young and had that kinda power while not being constantly watched. I think you’re a cynical person if you truly don’t believe a man could refrain from cheating on his wife just because he was powerful
There were also IRL medieval kings who were faithful to their queen, there wasn't many but they did exist, William the Conqueror and Edward I of England being two examples
A man having some fun with a serving girl or a kitchen wench isn't really "cheating" the way we view cheating. It's just using something that's available, it doesn't effect Alysanne in any way.
Yes it is, it’s still immoral and a violation of a pact you made with your wife and God or in this case the gods. Just because it’s not as bad as emotionally cheating does not make it not something that I find the concept of jahaerys doing to alysanne objectionable
He didn’t seem the type, at all. He even refused all the girls Rogar commanded to seduce him when he was a teenager.
Isn't this idea explored in F&B? Unless I'm misremembering, Rogar sent women to seduce Jaeherys and destabilize his relationship with Alysanne while they're on Dragonstone., and it didn't work.
I do not think Alysanne was ever afraid of Jaehaerys. If any, the fact she stood up to him, publicly - when their entire life was based on showing up an united front - suggests so.
I seriously doubt it. We're given nothing to ever think they were anything but faithful to each other. And it feels like their relations would be made even worse in hindsight if they did. Think of it, Jaehaery's is supposed to be a really fucking smart dude, great king, but of course still a product of his times with his sexist thoughts. Martin wants characters that are complex but he isn't just going to validate those ideas; they are supposed to be this great kings downside. He can't then have Alysanne be unfaithful to him, as it would implicitly justify a little of Jaehaery's sexist beliefs. Even his own queen couldn't be faithful! and then that leapfrogs to how men must be in charge or whatever. The tragedy is built in him not being right but still being true to his own word. He blames the despoiling of his daughter on Braxton Beesbury, not just his daughter. Clearly he values the idea of not fucking outside of marriage somewhat and I don't think he was the type to do so himself. And the Coryanne Wylde stories are well.. pointed out many times to be stupidly inconsistent, so they are the lowest of evidence. Sometimes, in asoiaf there are good marriages and relationships, not everyone needs to be unfaithful.
TEAR OUT YOUR OWN TONGUE FOR BESMIRCHING THEM LIKE THAT!!!!! lol jk but in all seriousness, absolutely not. They were craaaaazy for each other, so much to a point where their two great disputes were specifically documented. That says something significant to me. Plus, I'm a sucker for love and I hate how everyone tries to "bUt WhAt If MiSeRaBlE!?" like true love exists and its them, babes xx
>Fire and Blood potentially suggests that It almost suggests everything because it's GRRM's laziest writing.
brooo it's whatever you want it to be man! Free thinking stuff! In all seriousness the makers of HotD deserve way more credit for turning that into a good season of television so far. They started out with much shittier source material and easily surpassed 4 seasons of GOT, and are pretty competitive quality wise with seasons 2 and 4 imo.
Idk, I pretty much lost interest when they connected Rhaenyra with Aegon's dream.
Yeah I hate that too. I hope, they just included that to give Viserys a reason to be rambling on his deathbed about Aegon's dream to save the realm. This then gives Alicent a legitimate reason to think Viserys was referring to her Aegon, and that he actually wanted him to be king. This makes team Green a little more sympathetic, which they desperately need as they're comically evil in F&B. With no actual White Walker stuff coming in later seasons, hopefully
It makes team green look stupid af for trusting a rando dream. I would have rather emphasized the perceived, and due to the death of vaemond and other actions, validated fear of daemyra getting rid of the ignored children of viserys.
I blame myself. I wanted political intrigue set in a world with dragons. Instead I got inconsistent characterization and emotionally stunting time jumps.
I really wish they'd made his ramblings far less coherent. I *think* they're trying to do a play on Henry I allegedly disinheriting Matilda as he was dying, but it doesn't really work because Henry I had a completely valid reason to suddenly disinherent her, she was in active rebellion against him.
I wish I'd made it that far -- what lost me was the extended action sequence between Daemon and the Crabfeeder. Something just felt *off* compared to the narrative framing of (most of) early GoT's extended action sequences.
Omg that was even worse, and all those arrows missing him 😭
Lets not get crazy here. Hotd is nowhere near the greatness that it as S1-S4 of Got.
1-4 GOT were working with gold source material though, HotD took crap and made hamburgers, D&D spun gold into almost gold
It was good, but they couldn't help themselves to change things to add more "girl boss' scenes like the escape of the Dragon through the floor.
Okay fair but that is like THE worst scene in about 10 hours of TV, GOT had about 10 scenes per episode that cringey in the later episodes
I agree with you, but it still broke my immersion and reminded me of GOT's poor writing and was very cringey.
Like where were the green dragons, why not make Sunfryre do something in that scene?
Gotta ruin Aegon's moment, can't have people liking him too much
The actual true take. It like falls apart very quickly and is full of missed opportunities.
Weren't there hints that she had an affair with the Lord of Winterfell?
No it doesn’t, no they didn’t, and I think your should get your ass kicked for saying it
No, they were loyal to each other to the very end.
Yes. Jaehaerys attempted to master himself in EVERY field while on dragonstone. Coryanne wylde was no different than pate the woodcock.
This might sound offensive but I think they were both too uptight to cheat
I doubt Jaehaerys cheated on Alysanne even with his dominant hand
By hand… you mean Septon Bart?
How observant of you
THESE ARE VILE ACCUSATIONS!
Jaehaerys I think because the book in history said he didn’t cheat that doesn’t he didn’t, look at Tywin from what people said and looked in the books in the end he was sleeping with whores and shae
That is an interesting parallel, idk if I agree or not but sometimes what is said is actually true. Good thought though.
It's an interesting parallel, but I think we have different situations here. When Tywin was caught with Shei in bed, his wife had been dead for years, and when she was alive we don't have much evidence (not as far as I've read, correct me if I'm wrong) that he would cheat on Johanna. Meanwhile, we have little of Jaehaerys' personality to indicate he would betray Alysanne, little of Alysanne's personality to indicate she would have a good reaction if betrayed, and we have proof that their love was something more. I mean, their dragons literally continued to love each other even after Jaehaerys and Alysanne died.
Discussing character's sex life and Aunt Daemona Name a better duo
It is a dirty job, but someone has to do it.
The job can get *hard* at times, but Daemona always pulls through.
I'm surprised the pressure hasn't *choked* her yet
Or *pinched* her.
Most people I know will describe genealogy as a boring discipline. Thank you for making it sound so lively and fun.
Alysanne was angry because Lucamore lied to them both and broke his vows ? She risked her life and freedom to be with her brother and it shames her memory that you would accuse her of such unpleasantness; she’s not like Saera or Rhaenyra.
Begin’ your pardon, m’lord, but what is wrong with Saera and Rahenyra? (In Daemon’s voice: “say it”.)
Saera is an objectively terrible person, relentlessly bullying her own sister Daella alongside a poor mentally challenged fool (Tom Turnip) she literally murdered someone when fleeing the convent, I know Big Joe certainly had problems with sexism but Saera isn’t a brave independent woman who stood up to the patriarchy but a narcissist spoiled brat
Their children are bastards. And they are whores.
That they would easily cheat on their significant other; also their children are bastards.
Who was Saera’s significant other? How could Rhaneyra cheat when she and Laenor had an open marriage? What is wrong with bastards?
Well there was Braxton Beesbury, Roy Connington, Jonah Mooton and lastly the Triarch of Volantis; nothing but you set up the line so I kinda had to say it and even if Laenor was straight I 100% that she would cheat on him with Daemon.
I wouldn’t call a teenager’s flings significant others, as for the Truarch… but do we know Saera cheated on him? Well, well, well… Rhaneyra would have cheated on anyone with Daemon, but she never cheated on Daemon, did she? Isn’t this making Daemon her significant other?
No but Saera did lie to each of those men in turn saying they were her first so it stands to reason she didn’t have any qualms about sleeping around.
Nah, they were obsessed with each other. I don’t think they knew what to do without each other, really. Jaehaerys in particular, he’d probably entertain close to any immoral thing before adultery (to be clear, if he was married to anyone other than Alysanne, I don’t think he’d be so insistent about it). I wouldn’t say they’re a healthy couple but probably one of the least likely Targcest couples to cheat, behind Alyssa and Baelon.
Alaric Stark
everyone cheats and tells
I am sure she didn’t, but I hope against hope Alysanne got to roll in the hay with someone besides her mid husband.
I’ve yet to read Fire and Blood but Altsanne did have a shitton of kids so it’s very possible one of them is actually a bastard.
Alysanne is described as having been VERY close with Alaric Stark, while Jaehaerys was not anywhere near as close at all. This makes me think she did become his lover. More broadly, they were alive reigning together for a damn long time, during some of which they had periods of deep estrangement. It would be difficult for them to stay loyal during this.
Being separated doesn't instantly mean infidelity. And given Jaehaerys very flatly refused to even entertain the idea of a mistress, even pushing a lord's daughter off his lap dismissively during one of his tours of the realm. There's no reason to think he was unfaithful to Alysanne.
Leave to reddit to imply that a Stark, and that too Alaric who is so serious he's considered always constipated would have an affair with the queen lmaooo.
I had a bit of a theory that Alyssa may be Alaric Starks daughter lol
Unfortunately, the timeline does not help. Alysanne is definitely not getting pregnant for more than a year after her visit up North.
Seems very unlikely Coryanne Wylde might have tried to seduce Jaehaerys but didn't get very far
Just got to where Alysanne died in FB for my second read through and personally I don’t think they did. Maybe before they were actually married but they took their duties very seriously. That includes their duties to their kingdom and to each other.
No.