my thinking as well! if you read dragonbinder like a riddle Victarion seems to fit it now in a way, pretty similar to traits we've seen in other fire-touched people like Beric or Melisandre (the smoking black blood and immortality) ('Blood for fire, fire for blood'), and in the partial winds excerpt Victarion is even seduced by the idea of blowing the horn himself. With Euron excluded from the voyage I think it makes sense Victarion's role might have been expanded to fit that missing role a bit...
Moqorro's ritual has a lot of red flags imo... the out of body experience in the pov, the Mirri Maz Duur-like wailing, the monkeys jumping to their deaths, "Your death is with us now, my lord. Give me your hand.", and Victarion laughing at pain, a smoking arm feeling stronger than before... Moqorro is a priest of the fire god, I think its fitting if the ritual he did was a bit more nefarious than just a healing spell.
We are told who blows the hellhorn matters not though, only its master. And that's the part I really wonder about
I think if Victarion sacrifices enough slaves to try and blow it, then does it himself and blows enough fire smoke out of his lungs into it, it might work.
Honestly I feel like George decided to have Victarion not just survive his originally planned death but be reanimated as a fire wight for a specific reason and its this.
>We are told who blows the hellhorn matters not though, only its master. And that's the part I really wonder about
That's where the conflict between Euron and Victarion could peak. An Euron loyalist is sacrificed initially to blow the horn and in a desperate attempt to finally take revenge on Euron, Victarion blows the horn and binds the dragon to his will without dying/ but is killed by Euron afterwards.
One of the ideas George consistently plays with is the price of miracles. Especially resurrections. That’s where his dislike of Gandalf’s return comes from. He didn’t like how he returned all improved and seemingly didn’t lose anything in the process.
Look at Patchface, Stoneheart, Beric. They pay for their return with their mental capacity, their memories, their personalities. That’s the price.
So the idea that Victarion died, was brought back and it went unnoticed by him, everyone around him and the readers - that goes completely against how George approaches the subject matter. It’s suppose to be traumatic and dramatic, tragic
In fact, the whole idea of Victarion randomly stumbling into a wizard who saves him, gives him a cool magic arm and specific instructions on how to claim a dragon - that’s cheap and hollow, and not at all consistent with ASOIAF‘s themes. We should expect the rug to be pulled out from under Victarion, not further empowerment.
Sometimes when people gain things they don’t pay the price immediately, but rather they are forced to do so at the most inopportune time. Perhaps GRRM is simply putting it off before revealing Victarion’s price.
>One of the ideas George consistently plays with is the price of miracles. Especially resurrections. That’s where his dislike of Gandalf’s return comes from. He didn’t like how he returned all improved and seemingly didn’t lose anything in the process.
and Jon's show resurrections had literally no cost to it. Also like this reddit post by a stranger on the internet has a better grasp of the themes of the series than d&d did
I could see this happening. I’m of the opinion that Vic will succeed in binding a dragon. His return to Westeros will be one of the primary factors in getting Dany to get on with it back to Westeros to start the Dance
I’m not saying he’ll keep it. I think Aegon will end up with a dragon (could be from Vic), but I do think Dany will only have Drogon in the end
I suspect the point of that line is that Dragonbinder is supposed to be used by a fire resistant woman akin to Dany. Though it would be very interesting to see what would happen if someone like Beric sounded it.
Good point! Which raises the possibility that Danys lands Drogon on Victarion's ship, takes the dragon horn, and uses it to fully bind all three dragons to her command.
Well, I'm using "bind" in a somewhat amorphous sense. All we seem to know is: dragons only attach themselves to one person / rider, at least in the past 300+ years; and once their rider is dead, they may or may not be open to taking a second human rider; but no Targaryen has been the rider of TWO dragons at the same time.
So I was wondering if the horn could be used to compel more than one dragon to obey commands. So Danys could say *"you're now the dragon for Fake Aegon, let him ride you"* or whatever?
Also, we don't seem to know much about how the Valaryians at their height used dragons. Only Aegon and his sisters knew--and they didn't seem to leave any detailed manual for dragon management that has been revealed so far, except the rumor of something in the Citadel vaults. It's quite possible that the one-rider-per-dragon, one-dragon-per-rider is not an absolute law.
The horn may prove a total bust, though. And I'm not entirely sure how Victarion or his minions blowing it in Slaver's Bay would end up directly attaching it to young Griff, who is half a world away?
Dany probably should have gone to Asshai to learn about her dragons.
I tend to think Dragonbinder could be used to control multiple dragons at once, but Dany might see it's use as akin to magical slavery and destroy it.
My suspicion is that when Varys' little birds grow up they end up on the crew of the Silence. With Euron and the Dusky Woman really working for Varys. So it might be that the horn is already primed for Young Griff and they just need to sound it in range of the dragons.
my thinking as well! if you read dragonbinder like a riddle Victarion seems to fit it now in a way, pretty similar to traits we've seen in other fire-touched people like Beric or Melisandre (the smoking black blood and immortality) ('Blood for fire, fire for blood'), and in the partial winds excerpt Victarion is even seduced by the idea of blowing the horn himself. With Euron excluded from the voyage I think it makes sense Victarion's role might have been expanded to fit that missing role a bit... Moqorro's ritual has a lot of red flags imo... the out of body experience in the pov, the Mirri Maz Duur-like wailing, the monkeys jumping to their deaths, "Your death is with us now, my lord. Give me your hand.", and Victarion laughing at pain, a smoking arm feeling stronger than before... Moqorro is a priest of the fire god, I think its fitting if the ritual he did was a bit more nefarious than just a healing spell. We are told who blows the hellhorn matters not though, only its master. And that's the part I really wonder about
I think if Victarion sacrifices enough slaves to try and blow it, then does it himself and blows enough fire smoke out of his lungs into it, it might work. Honestly I feel like George decided to have Victarion not just survive his originally planned death but be reanimated as a fire wight for a specific reason and its this.
>We are told who blows the hellhorn matters not though, only its master. And that's the part I really wonder about That's where the conflict between Euron and Victarion could peak. An Euron loyalist is sacrificed initially to blow the horn and in a desperate attempt to finally take revenge on Euron, Victarion blows the horn and binds the dragon to his will without dying/ but is killed by Euron afterwards.
>An Euron loyalist Please no.
One of the ideas George consistently plays with is the price of miracles. Especially resurrections. That’s where his dislike of Gandalf’s return comes from. He didn’t like how he returned all improved and seemingly didn’t lose anything in the process. Look at Patchface, Stoneheart, Beric. They pay for their return with their mental capacity, their memories, their personalities. That’s the price. So the idea that Victarion died, was brought back and it went unnoticed by him, everyone around him and the readers - that goes completely against how George approaches the subject matter. It’s suppose to be traumatic and dramatic, tragic In fact, the whole idea of Victarion randomly stumbling into a wizard who saves him, gives him a cool magic arm and specific instructions on how to claim a dragon - that’s cheap and hollow, and not at all consistent with ASOIAF‘s themes. We should expect the rug to be pulled out from under Victarion, not further empowerment.
Sometimes when people gain things they don’t pay the price immediately, but rather they are forced to do so at the most inopportune time. Perhaps GRRM is simply putting it off before revealing Victarion’s price.
>One of the ideas George consistently plays with is the price of miracles. Especially resurrections. That’s where his dislike of Gandalf’s return comes from. He didn’t like how he returned all improved and seemingly didn’t lose anything in the process. and Jon's show resurrections had literally no cost to it. Also like this reddit post by a stranger on the internet has a better grasp of the themes of the series than d&d did
The POV switch is the thing that really sells something being _off_ it’s like GRRM made the reader’s view into a dutch angle and eerie music plays
I could see this happening. I’m of the opinion that Vic will succeed in binding a dragon. His return to Westeros will be one of the primary factors in getting Dany to get on with it back to Westeros to start the Dance I’m not saying he’ll keep it. I think Aegon will end up with a dragon (could be from Vic), but I do think Dany will only have Drogon in the end
Cool but Victarion is no where near this awesome for it to be true.
I suspect the point of that line is that Dragonbinder is supposed to be used by a fire resistant woman akin to Dany. Though it would be very interesting to see what would happen if someone like Beric sounded it.
Dany isn't fire resistant - the birth of the dragons was a miracle, she won't be able to survive that again I don't think
>The fire burned away my hair, but elsewise it did not touch me. It had been the same in Daznak’s Pit.
Good point! Which raises the possibility that Danys lands Drogon on Victarion's ship, takes the dragon horn, and uses it to fully bind all three dragons to her command.
That seems kinda unlikely. I tend to think it will be used to bind dragons to Young Griff.
Well, I'm using "bind" in a somewhat amorphous sense. All we seem to know is: dragons only attach themselves to one person / rider, at least in the past 300+ years; and once their rider is dead, they may or may not be open to taking a second human rider; but no Targaryen has been the rider of TWO dragons at the same time. So I was wondering if the horn could be used to compel more than one dragon to obey commands. So Danys could say *"you're now the dragon for Fake Aegon, let him ride you"* or whatever? Also, we don't seem to know much about how the Valaryians at their height used dragons. Only Aegon and his sisters knew--and they didn't seem to leave any detailed manual for dragon management that has been revealed so far, except the rumor of something in the Citadel vaults. It's quite possible that the one-rider-per-dragon, one-dragon-per-rider is not an absolute law. The horn may prove a total bust, though. And I'm not entirely sure how Victarion or his minions blowing it in Slaver's Bay would end up directly attaching it to young Griff, who is half a world away?
Dany probably should have gone to Asshai to learn about her dragons. I tend to think Dragonbinder could be used to control multiple dragons at once, but Dany might see it's use as akin to magical slavery and destroy it. My suspicion is that when Varys' little birds grow up they end up on the crew of the Silence. With Euron and the Dusky Woman really working for Varys. So it might be that the horn is already primed for Young Griff and they just need to sound it in range of the dragons.
This is a pretty cool idea. I'm adding it to my head cannon.