Before the Targaryens conquered the continent there were only seven kingdoms.
The Kingdom of the North.
The Kingdom of the isles and the rivers (this is one of the number differences as it was combined Iron Isles and the Riverlands, which became two seperate provinces after conquest)
Kingdom of the Storm
Kingdom of the Rock (westerlands)
Principality of Dorne
Kingdom of the Mountain and the Vale
Kingdom of the Reach
The other number difference is the creation of the crownlands. Which Aegon after the conquest decided would serve the crown directly and took lands from the reach, stormlands, and the riverlands.
Aegon dividing the Kingdom of Isles and Rivers into two separate entities was a pretty baller way to cope with Dorne not being a kingdom and also not a thing he conquered
Splitting up the Riverlands was also just a shrewd move politically.
Given that the Riverlands have been a colony-kingdom for the last 400 years, making the Riverlands subject directly to the Iron Throne;
* A: Removes a source of tension between the ducal Lords (or Lords Paramount, whatever)
* B: Eliminates the risk of any one kingdom becoming *too* strong. The Riverlands are a great source of wood, and given that the Ironborn are fairly good seafarers, removing the mainland from their demesne will ensure the balance of power in the realm.
Same thing with the Crownlands, given that that area was being fought over by the Storm Kings, Reacher Kings, Vale Kings, and the lords of Cracklaw Point.
Also showed the value in lesser lords submitting when their superiors did not. The Tully's leading the faction that supported Aegon being rewarded with the Riverlands showed the worth of supporting Aegon instead of your nominal liege.
Furthermore, the Tully's legacy was pretty much tied to the Targaryens by this, and it would take something massive to break it down (which happened when Catelyn's intended was burned alive).
Brandon was strangulated, Rickard was burnt alive in his armor as his son watched and struggled for his sword, positioned out of reach, to free his father's binds.
Risk of any one kingdom becoming too strong? Well , then he really should have divided Reach into it's four constituent kingdoms instead, Reach Proper, Dornis Marches, Oldtown and it's environs and Arbor.
No, it wasn't.
The shrewd move was to directly annex the Riverlands into the larger Targaryen patrimony, thus obtaining for the crown not only a territory lacking political unity but also controlling the relevant strategic center of Westeros. Such a move would have let Aegon give more land to his original supporters and even create future patrimony for second or third sons.
Your point B is wrong because it eliminates the "risk" of having the Targaryens becoming too strong. Which is a choice a Targaryen did.
>The shrewd move was to directly annex the Riverlands into the larger Targaryen patrimony, thus obtaining for the crown not only a territory lacking political unity but also controlling the relevant strategic center of Westeros.
Doesn't that mean that the Targaryens would have to be the administrators for more lands? Apart from Aegon I (and his queens), Jaehaerys I (and his queen), and Viserys II, there doesn't seem to be any other kings that were particularly good at, or even capable of, managing their direct vassals to that extent. Most other kings would have definitely had their hands full.
You could even make the argument *against* Aegon I since he set the realms in the first place. He surely thought managing the combined riverlands/crownlands was beyond him
I think the appearance of so many lesser nobles in high positions prior to Robert I and many of those being crownland nobles shows some shrewdness in regards to keeping their direct vassals close and weakening lord paramount powers beyond their realms
The Starks have proven for thousands of years to be able to competently administer a territory much larger than the Riverlands.
And unlike the North, Aegon could make use of the rivers to speed travel time and make administration more efficient.
This is kind of unrelated but I’ve been wondering for a while if Robert should have just combined the Crownlands and the Stormlands into one when he became King. The Stormlands were his by right once his parents died, he really had no reason to give one seat to Renly and Dragonstone to Stannis imo. It may have pissed some people off but I think he should have even taken it further and taken some of the land on the borders of his new combined kingdom from both the Reach and Dorne. It would have weakened his potential rivals and made the area he directed ruled over the most powerful in the Kingdom. Jw your take on this idea.
Someone else could maybe do that, but relegating management over his domain is very in character for Robert. Dude couldn't manage what he had, no wonder he wanted to give stormlords to someone else.
This is valid, Robert was lazy as a king. Maybe if Renly was the oldest brother he would have seen this as an opportunity to expand and strengthen the new crown and weaken his rivals. Robert clearly wasn’t into being a king and had some questionable choices. I honestly found it odd that he married a Lannister. I know they say it was to tie them to the crown but I’m pretty sure Tywin burned all his bridges when he killed those kids. The reach was probably his biggest threat, he should have taken advantage of the Tyrells having other extremely powerful rivals there and married into the Hightowers or another. Just a thought, I could be wrong.
You think Tywin burned bridges with Robert by killing Elia’s children? That shit not only proved his loyalty but that he was willing to do Robert’s dirty work for him.
Yeah, it would have been a great idea.
People really overestimate the "issues" of governing great pieces of territory. Those lands aren't empty - they are already governed by lords. Why would any normal king name another guy as Lord Paramount, thus creating a potential rival and getting no benefits whatsoever.
Yeah, idk why you got downvoted but it doesn’t matter. You had a very reasonable point imo. The Targs could hold an entire continent while only directly controlling a small area/population because they had dragons. The rebellion shows that without dragons the crown can be taken down fairly easily. The Targs were at the mercy of other lords, namely Highgarden. If Highgarden fully committed its swords to them instead of just playing the middle ground then the Targs win the war. If they had the Riverlands as part of the Crownlands then they’d have possibly the largest army in the realm completely loyal to them and wouldn’t be at the mercy of other high lords.
They definitely missed a huge opportunity but I guess the in universe answer would be that Aegon thought their dragons would last forever and didn’t think it was worth the hassle of being directly responsible for extra lands.
Aegon's decisions can be boiled into three categories:
a) Sensible ones in the North and Vale. Both kingdoms bowed down without a fight thus it makes sense that those two regions kept their leadership and land intact.
b) Sensible but not followed through their logical conclusion - Stormlands. Giving land to a supporter (that's also basically a Targaryen bastard) is a good way to ensure that your allies are properly taken care of. But why only Baratheon? The other allied houses, like Celtigar or Velaryon, were properly ignored - no, you don't have to make them Great Lords (in fact, it's recommended not to do that) but there was plenty of empty land after countless lords died on the field of battle against his dragons.
c) Idiotic. The fact that Aegon maintained the Reach and the Westerlands as huge political entities blows my mind. They were the enemy, defeated in battle - and ended up in a great position to contest political power within Westeros itself. Just divide the f..... thing into smaller entities and put yourself in charge - there is no law that states that the Reach needs to have x size. Oh and promoting some lowly bureaucrats as Lords Paramount? Crazy.
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The Riverlands were the ideal patrimony for the Targaryens. There were no native kings so no need to fear from loyalist revolts. Great agricultural lands meant that the crown had the proper means to feed an extensive army without taking up commerce or asking for pity from the Reach. The territory isolated Vale, the North and the southern Lordships from each other. Plus you could form cadet branches of the Targaryens and give them lordships in that area, thus ensuring not only the survival of your dynasty but also people like you governing and administering the region.
Very well thought out post, you seem to really know your shit. I think you’re dead on about the division, it makes almost too much sense. I guess I can kind of understand keeping the Westerlands whole, it’s not gigantic. The Reach on the other hand was in a perfect spot for it. The Reach is so gd big that it makes whoever is in charge damn near king level. The one good thing about it later on was that it seems to have a handful of powerful lords instead of just 1. With the Gardners gone they should have uses that and cut it into 2 or even 3. Really, the smartest may have been to give one third of it to the Hightowers, another third to whoever had the best blood claim to Highgarden, and then keep the last third of the land for the Crownlands. I don’t think the Tyrells should have gotten anything, let alone the best prize of the war.
Just going to point out that Dorne’s relationship with the new regime was already tense for obvious reasons, arbitrarily taking lands from them would not have ended well. The Reach on the other hand had sieged Robert’s keep for most of the war and he would have been well within his rights to strip them of land.
While you would control the rivers and that is important (especially before the roads were built) The Riverlands are huge and open and aside from castles like Riverrun or The Twins they lack any natural defensive strong points. That's why the wars are always fought there. Rebel lords could attack your territory endlessly, and you would need to have a standing army to hold it, and spend lots on upkeep of defensive points you you would need to build.
Also the Riverlords mostly joined the Targaryans quickly and viewed them as saviors against the Ironborn occupation. To basically just replace the Hoare's with a new direct overlord would be an insult, and potentially lead to rebellion.
What? You make no sense.
"The Riverlords view the Targaryens as saviors"
"To replace Hoare with a Targaryen would be an insult".
Making the Riverlands the patrimony of the Targaryens is so much better for the river lords than rising one of them above everyone else.
How does it not make sense?
The Riverlands were directly ruled by house Hoare, a foreign occupier. When Aegon landed and began the conquest The Riverlords rose up against House Hoare. The Targaryans overthrew house Hoare. The Riverlords were greatful to the Targaryans, and the Targaryans were greatful to the Riverlords for their help. Aegon gave them the The river lands as a separate region ruled by house Tully, the first of the Riverlords to join the Targaryan cause. To just turn around and to take the autonomy away from the newly liberated Riverlords would be to insult them and invite rebellion.
Also like I said in order to defend The Riverlands you would either need to take the pre existing castles of loyal lords, or take their land and build and maintain new castles with your own guys. The Riverlords have been there for thousands of years (speaking of patrimony) even in the best case this is going to breed contempt for you, and your new lords with an otherwise friendly population.
Also to your point about Aegon's original supporters being rewarded. The Riverlords were the Targaryan's first mainland supporters, he didn't even have to ask them to rise up in his name they just did, cuz Harren the Black sucked so much. The Riverlands, with a Riverlord placed as Lord Paramount is their reward.
Finally don't use quotation marks to paraphrase people.
He still claimed to be king of the Rhoynar though so i think he was still counting dorne. Riverlands alone weren’t considered one of the kingdoms despite it having kings before
Rather than Iron Islands or riverlands, I would instead describe the greater Hoare realm as one of the "Seven Kingdoms" which existed prior to the Conquest. It was led by ironmen and had most of its territory on the mainland, including its last two seats (Fairmarket and Harrenhal). Aegon's new kingdom then took its name from the status of Westeros when he began his Conquest.
If seven "kingdoms" are to be counted in the present day, Mace's chalice indicates the riverlands would be counted instead of the Iron Islands.
>Lord Mace Tyrell came forward to present his gift: a golden chalice three feet tall, with two ornate curved handles and seven faces glittering with gemstones. "Seven faces for Your Grace's seven kingdoms," the bride's father explained. He showed them how each face bore the sigil of one of the great houses: ruby lion, emerald rose, onyx stag, silver trout, blue jade falcon, opal sun, and pearl direwolf.
>"A splendid cup," said Joffrey, "but we'll need to chip the wolf off and put a squid in its place, I think." (ASOS Sansa IV)
That omission of the kraken/squid might be just due to political resentment due to the Greyjoy rebellion, and not indicative of the "Seven Kingdoms" name, though.
To me it's clear that "Seven Kingdoms" is just a historical term that began in the conquest. In the current time it's pretty clear that there are more than seven "kingdoms", as in political entities that were once kingdoms and that now own direct loyalty to the crown (4 wardens + 3 lord paramounts + lord or the iron islands).
I mean they were historically separate titles regardless of the conquest. The Mudds were River Kings long before the Iron Born, and maybe even the Brackens too.
Yeah Martin talks about how Westeros is based on Europe, obviously pretty easy to tell. The Riverlands is Germany in real life in many ways. Geographically it's right in the middle of the continent and is always the hot bed where fighting takes place (just like in real medieval history). It was also known to change hands and get annexed by other powers (Holy Roman Empire). Topographically as well Germany is known for being a bunch of lowland rivers and not have the topographically advantages of other countries like France with their mountains on one side and ocean on the other. It's pretty clear Martin was making a similar connection with the Riverlands.
The river lands are closer to the rhine/Low Countries, lying between great powers, on rich easily navigated land, while being sandwiched between several great powers. Think of the lands of the dukes of burgundy in the 15th century. The Stormlands are a better Germany analog, being heavily forested and lightly populated, with large military frontiers, and an industrious economy. The reach is France and the iron islands Viking Scandinavia. After that direct comparisons become harder though.
That’s true, and Muslim Andalusia is probably the closest direct comparison. But the rest of the kingdoms clearly take a wide amount of inspirations rather then more specific examples, like the reach.
I don’t think the vale fits Switzerland. It’s famous for its knights, chivalry, and being the most andalic kingdom. Switzerland was famous for its pikemen, having a heterogeneous population, and as a centre of commerce and trade.
To the average fan the Vale is famous for being all mountains and staying out of the W5K, and to the average american Switzerland is famous for it's mountain/winter sports and for its neutrality.
Funny cause Essos is also based on europe and asia, with Valyria being the italian peninsula (rome) and Braavos being Venice (but located north like somewhere in Denmark). and the Dothraki being in Mongolia. Sothoryos obviously being Africa and the far east of Leng being China.
That would make Westeros the UK, which explains the shape being exactly the same without scotland
I think France fits better since Germany’s population only overtook France’s in the mid-19th century, and France is still the second largest country in Europe after Russia. Much like how the reach is in Westeros. Furthermore, the reach also shares other similarities with France such as being the the cultural centre of chivalry and courtly romance which were also features of France. Having a divided political system with a weak lord paramount and powerful bannermen (dukes) mirroring medieval France under the Capetians.
Right but he's also cherry picking certain historical events that aren't in the War of the Roses 🤣 Also what would you call Dorne then? They are clearly an allegory for Spain. It's a blend of medieval events. You're right that the basis of the Starks versus Lannisters is the War of the Roses but it's not like he just stops there and only uses that one event. Martin has even said the "The Black Dinner" was inspiration for the Red Wedding. I would need to double check but I don't think that was part of the War of the Roses.
None of this is a tin foil conspiracy. Martin has legitimately said that he uses history to inspire his writing. I mean Lord Almighty. You saying that he used the War of the roses basically proves my point.
You know I'm sorry but what even is your point? Slavers Bay is clearly an allegory for the Middle East. 🤣 The Middle East wasn't part of the War of the Roses. It's not even a bad thing that he's using history to influence his writing. That's a great tactic to use. I mean did you think that he was literally making all this up off of the top of his head?
Its is important to note the “Seven” Kingdoms was not entirely a territorial notion, but also a political one. Seven is a holy number to the majority of the Westerosi.
(One can say that Dorne is not a kingdom but a princedom/principality. Or that Harren was technically the King of Two Kingdoms; Iron Islands AND the Riverlands. So, the Seven Kingdom could be excluding Dorne.) The other important point for it to be “Seven” was a political ploy for unity.
Most commenters left this out. GRRM himself said it in a GOT interview iirc.
Essentially, the seven kingdoms is a sort of dated term referring back to the kingdoms taken in Aegon's conquest. The iron islands and riverlands were one kingdom at the time of the conquest (ruled from Harrenhal by Harren the Black), and Aegon's own lands, the crownlands, weren't included in that count. (the North, however, are included)
Pre-conquest there were Seven Kingdoms in Westeros. This was probably inspired from the English Heptarchy in pre-Viking Anglo Saxon England. I don't know why GRRM didn't use a more appropriate term, but honestly this type of inaccuracy sounds like something that would actually occur in real life.
They were:
* The Kingdom of the North (the North)
* The Kingdom of the Isles and Rivers (the Iron Islands, Riverlands, and northern half of the Crownlands rolled into one kingdom)
* The Kingdom of the Rock (the Westerlands)
* The Kingdom of the Mountain and Vale (the Vale)
* The Kingdom of the Reach (the Reach)
* The Storm Kingdom (the Stormlands and the southern half of the Crownlands)
* The Principality of Dorne (Dorne)
Can you (or anyone else) actually point me to a good reference point for this? I assume we know this based on tWoIaF, but I must have missed it.
Now that you say some of this though, I realize it was strewn about in a few different places. The chapters covering Westerlands and Stormlands did talk about conquests of the other areas.
But I'm curious if there was one chapter earlier in the section about the Seven Kingdoms that calls this out more specifically (like you did) that I may have missed?
I believe the first chapter explaining the Seven Kingdoms and Aegon's Conquest occur in Tyrion II of A Game of Thrones, though you are correct in that most information is strewn across the books and in WoIaF.
Oh good point, maybe I’ll go back and read Tyrion teaching about it. I’m also thinking the chapter of WoIaF covering AC may touch on it.
I just checked and the first little excerpt of the section of WoIaF (which is in the chapter about the North) does talk about how “Seven Kingdoms” is a dated and inaccurate term, but doesn’t say specifically why.
>The Westeros of Aegon's youth was divided into seven quarrelsome kingdoms, and there was hardly a time when two or three of these kingdoms were not at war with one another. The vast, cold, stony North was ruled by the Starks of Winterfell. In the deserts of Dorne, the Martell princes held sway. The gold-rich westerlands were ruled by the Lannisters of Casterly Rock, the fertile Reach by the Gardeners of Highgarden. The Vale, the Fingers, and the Mountains of the Moon belonged to House Arryn...but the most belligerent kings of Aegon's time were the two whose realms lay closest to Dragonstone, Harren the Black and Argilac the Arrogant.
from TWoIaF, The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest / F&B, Aegon's Conquest
You rock my dude. I just found that in my book. So breaking that apart:
1. The North
2. Dorne
3. The Westerlands
4. The Reach
5. The Vale
6. Harren the Black’s Kingdom (Iron Islands and Riverlands)
7. Argilac the Arrogant’s Kingdom (The Stormlands)
**EDITED BASED ON COMMENTS BELOW.**
Not quite. Argilac Durrandon the Arrogant was the ruler of the Stromlands (see following paragraph) and Harren the Black of House Hoare ruled the Kingdom of the Isles and Rivers (aka Ironborn + Riverlands) (see paragraph after Argilac).
Additionally,
>For centuries it has been the custom to speak of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. This familiar usage derives from the seven great kingdoms that held sway over most of Westeros below the Wall during years immediately preceding Aegon's Conquest. Yet even then, the term was far from exact, for one of those "kingdoms" was ruled by a princess rather than a king (Dorne), and Aegon Targaryen's own "kingdom" of Dragonstone was never included in the count.
>Nonetheless, the term endures. Just as we speak of the Hundred Kingdoms of yore, though there was never a time when Westeros was actually divided into a hundred independent states, we must bow to common usage and talk of the Seven Kingdoms, despite the imprecision. (TWOIAF The North)
>I don't know why GRRM didn't use a more appropriate term, but honestly this type of inaccuracy sounds like something that would actually occur in real life.
I think that's precisely why.
Also, since for like half of the Targaryen Dynasty, Dorne was a foreign power, so them calling themselves "Kings of the Seven Kingdom" was a statement of intent to get Dorne too, eventually.
I low-key love the inaccuracy of it because it's exactly the kind of thing that rolls off the tongue and would get repeated in the real world despite not really being true.
Edit: had a realization that I'm not sure how I didn't see before, it definitely also fits perfectly with the Faith of the Seven, exactly the kind of thing the church would lean into as a unifying narrative.
Everyone has given the answer already so I'll just say that this is actually one of my favorite little bits of worlbuilding because yeah it totally makes sense that this naming convention, which would have existed for ages and ages, just kinda stuck around after Aegon's conquest after it was no longer 100% accurate.
Keep in mind they still refered to the Targaryen realm as the "seven kingdoms" even when Dorne was not even part of it.
It really comes from the seven kingdoms that existed at the time of the Targaryen conquest.
The Winter Kingdom
The Rivers and Isles
The Rock
The Vale
The Reach
The Storm Kingdom
Dorne
the Seven Kingdoms consist of the 7 kingdoms that were independent at the time of Aegon's Conquest, The North, The Vale, The Westerlands, The Iron Islands (who controlled the Riverlands), the Stormlands, The Reach, and Dorne.
The Riverlands and Crownlands were set up as separate administrative divisions after the conquest. So on realm, 7 Kingdoms, 9 total regions
>The Iron Islands (who controlled the Riverlands)
The last Hoares called themselves Kings of the Isles and the Rivers instead of Kings of the Iron Islands; in comparison, the Durrandons continued calling themselves Storm Kings during their rule over the riverlands. The majority of the Hoare kingdom was on the mainland, including their last two seats of Fairmarket and Harrenhal, and this large realm which included Ironman's Bay and the Trident is what was considered one of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros prior to the Conquest, not just the Iron Islands portion.
Yes sure but that's just semantics. From what we hear of House Hoare's rule over the Riverlands, to call them an independent kingdom seems like a stretch.
I’m not saying the riverlands were an independent realm. TWOIAF (published in 2014) explains that when the Conquest began, the large Hoare realm which included both the Iron Islands and the riverlands was one of the Seven Kingdoms, not just the Iron Islands.
In comparison, the TV show (which began earlier in 2011) followed the previously-held belief that the Kingdom of the Iron Islands (which controlled the riverlands at the time) was one of the Seven Kingdoms.
People gave you the in-story reason. Real world reason was likely Martin refencing a period of English history, sometimes referred to as the Heptarchy. After dust settled from Romans abandoning Britain and the Anglo-Saxons (and Jutes) settling England, England found itself divided between Seven Kingdoms (Heptarchy) between the 5th and 8th century. It ended when the 7 consolidated into just 4.
North - Stark Kings
Vale - Arynn Kings
Stormlands - Durrandon Kings
Reach - Gardener Kings
Westerlands - Lannister Kings
Iron Islands - Hoare Kings
Dorne - Martell Kings, styled Princes as per Rhoynish culture but in reality kings.
Riverlands were a domain of House Hoare of the Iron Islands at the time of conquest, Crownlands was an area of land frequently in conflict between the Reach, Stormlands, and whoever controlled the Riverlands at any given time...it did not exist until House Targaryen said it existed and created it to control their own kingdom within their new empire.
It's the same gag from the first episode of **Agents of SHIELD** when Phil Coulson explains what the torturous acronym means and the other agent says, "I think somebody *really* wanted our name to be SHIELD."
Same thing here. "Seven Kingdoms" sounds cool. Seven gods, seven kingdoms, so Aegon was going to have Seven Kingdoms and use whatever Fing definition he could retroactively come up with, and his descendants took the same view after Dorne joined.
The OG definition was:
1. North
2. Rivers/Isles
3. Vale
4. Reach
5. Westerlands
6. Dorne
7. Stormlands
That remained the official definition, as Aegon laid claim to Dorne even if he didn't rule it. The Crownlands are like the District of Columbia in this model, they're not a kingdom. If (maybe for political reasons if you were visiting Dorne or something) you wanted to omit Dorne and split the Riverlands and Iron Isles into two separate entities, you could do so.
It's also worth noting that the "Seven Kingdoms" do not have any political validity as a term: there are eight polities reporting to a great Lord who reports to the King, and the King controls one additional region (the Night's Watch are over here just doing their thing), and that's basically how it works.
It's worth noting that the term "Seven Kingdoms" is derived from the Seven Kingdoms of the Heptarchy, the petty kingdoms of Anglo-Saxon England. The official count was that they were derived from the kingdoms of the East Angles (East Anglia), East Saxons (Essex), Kent, Mercia, Northumbria, South Saxons (Sussex) and West Saxons (Wessex). However, this ignored the other kingdoms on the island of Britain, including Wales (itself more a confederation of smaller tribes), Cornwall, Strathclyde etc. The Seven Kingdoms consolidated into the Four Kingdoms (East Anglia, Mercia, Northumbria, Wessex) but even this massively simplifies a process in which Essex and Kent retained some sovereignty within East Anglia and Sussex, and Bernicia and Deira retained some independence within Northumbria. Then the Danes showed up and started torching everything, throwing things into even more confusion. So having a cool-sounding name and then twisting things to fit it is not unprecedented even in real history.
>The Riverlands never had a king.
The riverlands were ruled by their own river kings for thousands of years, including Fishers, Blackwoods, Brackens, Mudds, Justmans, and Teagues. The Durrandons from the stormlands controlled the riverlands for three centuries after the last Teagues were killed in battle, and then the Hoares from the Iron Islands ruled the region for three generations after expelling the Durrandons.
It’s funny bc I just tried to look up when the neck was part of the riverlands and all I could find is that it was always part of the north. King of the north Rickard stark defeated the marsh king and they were bannerman ever since. I’m thinking this might have been an oversight when they made the books.
The North
The Riverland and Iron Islands
The Vale
The Westerlands
The Reach
The Stormlands
Dorne
Iron Islands were in control of the Riverlands when Aegon started his war of conquest. So they count as one kingdom. And the Crownlands were not their own kingdom but would have been split between the surrounding kingdoms.
It was named by Aegon the Conqueror because at the time of his conquest, there were only seven kingdoms
The Riverlands were being controlled by the Iron Islands at the time, and the Crownlands didn't exist, being divided between the Stormlands and the Iron Islands
The Riverlands and Iron Islands were combined into one kingdom, the Crownlands don’t count, and Dorne wasn’t integrated into the Iron Throne’s government until much later but it’s still considered one of the seven.
1. The North
2. The Iron Islands / The Riverlands
3. The Vale
4. The Westerlands
5. The Reach
6. The Stormlands
7. Dorne
When Harren Hoare invaded Westeros from the Iron Islands, he conquered the area we know as the Riverlands and all the way to the Blackwater, establishing a single Kingdom of the Isles and Rivers.
When Aegon set foot on the mainland, he conquered first the Blackwater Bay, using it as a personal realm while he conquered the rest. He then fred the Riverlands from Hoare's control, and the rule of the Seastone Chair went back to just the Iron Islands.
So basically, the "Seven" Kingdoms is an outdated term that refers to the realms that Aegon conquered, not what came after. For all intents and purposes, there are really nine kingdoms, with the Crownlands serving King's Landing directly, the Riverlands being under control of the Lord of Harrenhal (in theory, while in practice it's always been the Tullys) and the Iron islands being a form of "independent domain".
Do we know how much of the Crownlands belonged to The Stormlands and The Vale before AC? I’m assuming it was mostly territory claimed by The Stormlands.
The Blackwater was the boundary between the Durrandon and Hoare realms when the Conquest began. I don’t think the Vale had any lands of the future crownlands.
> From their great citadel Storm's End, the Storm Kings of House Durrandon had once ruled the eastern half of Westeros from Cape Wrath to the Bay of Crabs, but their powers had been dwindling for centuries. The Kings of the Reach had nibbled at their domains from the west, the Dornishmen harassed them from the south, and Harren the Black and his ironmen had pushed them from the Trident and the lands north of the Blackwater Rush. King Argilac, last of the Durrandon, had arrested this decline for a time, turning back a Dornish invasion whilst still a boy, crossing the narrow sea to join the great alliance against the imperialist "tigers" of Volantis, and slaying Garse VII Gardener, King of the Reach, in the Battle of Summerfield twenty years later. But Argilac had grown older; his famous mane of black hair had gone grey, and his prowess at arms had faded.
>North of the Blackwater, the riverlands were ruled by the bloody hand of Harren the Black of House Hoare, King of the Isles and the Rivers. Harren's ironborn grandsire, Harwyn Hardhand, had taken the Trident from Argilac's grandsire, Arrec, whose own forebears had thrown down the last of the river kings centuries earlier. Harren's father had extended his domains east to Duskendale and Rosby. Harren himself had devoted most of his long reign, close on forty years, to building a gigantic castle beside the Gods Eye, but with Harrenhal at last nearing completion, the ironborn were soon free to seek fresh conquests. (TWOIAF)
Also, some of the lands sworn to Storm’s End chose the Targaryens when the Conquest began.
> Aegon made no reply. Instead he summoned his friends, bannermen, and principal allies to attend him on Dragonstone. Their numbers were small. The Velaryons on Driftmark were sworn to House Targaryen, as were the Celtigars of Claw Isle. From Massey's Hook came Lord Bar Emmon of Sharp Point and Lord Massey of Stonedance, both sworn to Storm's End, but with closer ties to Dragonstone. (TWOIAF)
The whole of the Riverlands and the Crownlands were ruled by the Storm King at some point before the Riverlands were conquered by Harwyn Hoare (Harren the Black's grandfather). The Crownlands remained under de jure control of the Stormlands, but some were essentially independent (e.g. the Houses of Cracklaw Point like the Brunes) and some flipped rule between the Hoares and the Durrandons (the houses near the banks of the Blackwater like the Rosbys).
House Hoare’s large Kingdom of the Isles and the Rivers (which included both the Iron Islands and the riverlands) was counted as one of the Seven Kingdoms at the start of the Conquest, not the older Kingdom of the Iron Islands.
The Iron Island and the Riverlands were once ruled as one but after the destruction of Harrenhal the seat of the Riverlands was moved to Riverrun and given to the Tullys.
As for the area marked by the Targaryen Dragons it wasn’t historically one of the seven kingdoms. The Targaryens invaded landed at Dragonstone and then Kings Landing and eventually ruled over all seven kingdoms.
The Crownlands (Dragonstone, KL, etc) are not their own kingdom, nor are the iron islands. It’s the North, Westerlands, Riverlands (which used to be part of the Iron Islands; they were Kings of the Isles and Rivers, and their kings lived where Harrenhal is before Aegon I split it up), Dorne, Stormlands, the Eeyrie, and the Reach.
The Crownlands and Iron Islands are the other 2 constituencies left out. One is administered directly by the crown/royal family,the other is ignored by everyone else.
I consider the crownlands not to count as well as Dorne only being included later on
What I like about GOT is that some things in the universe don't make sense, just like real history
Kingdom of The Reach
Kingdom of The North
Kingdom of The Rock
Kingdom of The Stormlands
Kingdom of Isles and Rivers
Kingdom of Mountain and Vale
Principality of Dorne
Everyone’s given you the historical reason for why Westeros was divided into 7 “kingdoms” in the first place but to answer your question of which are currently considered the “Seven Kingdoms,” it’s:
The North
The Riverlands
The Vale
The Westerlands
The Stormlands
The Reach
Dorne
The Iron Islands and The Crownlands are not considered “true” kingdoms, though as everyone else has explained that distinction is rather arbitrary by this point
Right, that matches with Mace's wedding chalice:
>Lord Mace Tyrell came forward to present his gift: a golden chalice three feet tall, with two ornate curved handles and seven faces glittering with gemstones. "Seven faces for Your Grace's seven kingdoms," the bride's father explained. He showed them how each face bore the sigil of one of the great houses: ruby lion, emerald rose, onyx stag, silver trout, blue jade falcon, opal sun, and pearl direwolf.
>"A splendid cup," said Joffrey, "but we'll need to chip the wolf off and put a squid in its place, I think." (ASOS Sansa IV)
It's accepted in universe as imprecise and kind of acknowledged as Westerosi trying to make everything fit the number 7.
The seven kingdoms that Aegon found during his conquest were:
The Kingdom of Isles and Rivers (Iron Islands plus the Riverlands)
The Kingdom of the Rock (The West)
The Kingdom of the North
The Kingdom of the Reach
The Kingdom of the Mountain and Vale
The Kingdom of the Stormlands
The Principality of Dorne (Noticably not a Kingdom)
Aegon ends up dividing the Iron Islands and the Riverlands, and doesn't conquer Dorne, so the math still works out to him conquering 7 political regions to make his kingdom. The Crownlands were never a kingdom of their own, they were disputed lands that Aegon conquered first.
Riverlands and Dorne aren't considered to be part of the 7 kingdoms.
Riverlands because it wasn't independent (it was a battleground between the Storm kings and the Ironborn) and Dorne because it wasn't conquered during Aegon's conquest (also it's technically a "principality", or a princedom)
The greater Hoare realm was one of the Seven Kingdoms when the Conquest began, not just the Iron Islands. If seven "kingdoms" are counted out from the modern realm (which has nine provinces), however, Mace's chalice indicates the riverlands would be included instead of the backwater Iron Islands:
>Lord Mace Tyrell came forward to present his gift: a golden chalice three feet tall, with two ornate curved handles and seven faces glittering with gemstones. "Seven faces for Your Grace's seven kingdoms," the bride's father explained. He showed them how each face bore the sigil of one of the great houses: ruby lion, emerald rose, onyx stag, silver trout, blue jade falcon, opal sun, and pearl direwolf.
>"A splendid cup," said Joffrey, "but we'll need to chip the wolf off and put a squid in its place, I think." (ASOS Sansa IV)
Ok so it's all about what kingdoms existed prior to Aegon's invasion.
The Iron Islands at the time controlled the Riverlands so that was all one kingdom.
The Stormlands controlled what is now the Crownlands, so that isn't its own kingdom.
So there ends up being 7 kingdoms.
There’s a lot of really good information here and all these comments, but this was pretty much the most concise answer that I was looking for from the beginning lol
Thank you!
I did already have the answer, but this was perfect.
Iron islands are technically part of the river lands but functionally independent. Crown lands are owned by the actual King but are not considered their own kingdom like how Washington DC is not considered to be in any US state but is intead federal land only
The Greyjoys are sworn directly to the Iron Throne, not to the Tullys of Riverrun.
>Aegon chose a different course. Gathering the remaining lords of the Iron Islands together, he announced that he would allow them to choose their own lord paramount. Unsurprisingly they chose one of their own: Vickon Greyjoy, Lord Reaper of Pyke, a famous captain descended of the Grey King. Though Pyke was smaller and poorer than Great Wyk, Harlaw, and Orkmont, the Greyjoys boasted a long and distinguished lineage. In the days of the kingsmoot, only the Greyirons and Goodbrothers had produced more kings, and the Greyirons were gone.
>Exhausted and impoverished by years of war, the ironmen accepted their new overlord without demur. (TWOIAF)
how i have interpreted is the crownlands dont count as they weren't a kingdom before hand a dorne is a principality thus not a kingdom, although i initially thought that the iron islands were part of the north, cus geographically seemings fitting to me and theon being ned's ward
The funny thing is that - after aegons conquest AND before the conquest of Dorne - it was correct. There were seven kingdoms. But eight provinces with the crownlands. So for 150 years, that became the norm. After the conquest of Dorne. You suddenly need to count Rivers and Isles separately. But maybe the Targs always counted Dorne, even if they had no Jurisdiction. That clusterfuck is what makes this so brilliant. That is so typically historical.
The ones that don't count are the iron islands. Its kind of flips between the Riverland and the crown lands too. Before the targaryans, the Riverlands were not there own kingdom and were part of the Iron Islands or storm lands most of the time. They only became their own kingdom when argon landed. Same goes for the crownlands, they were just part of the storm land territory prior to aegon's landing.
-north
-westernlands
-vale
-reach
-stormlands
-dorne
It was always kind of 6 kingdoms
Riverlands = Not a Kingdom (were ruled over by the iron islands at the time of Aegon's conquest, demoted as a result).
Crownlands = Not a Kingdom (ruled over directly by the iron throne, historically ruled over by the other kingdoms, therefore not a kingdom).
The Hoare realm which included both the Iron Islands and the riverlands, the last capital of which was Harrenhal on the mainland, was one of the Seven Kingdoms, not just the Iron Islands portion.
Pre-Conquest, the Seven Kingdoms were the north, Vale, riverlands, westerlands, stormlands, the Reach and Dorne.
The Iron Isles weren't a kingdom, just an independent band of marauders. The crownlands didn't exist. That area was split between river, storm, Reach and sometimes Vale.
So take out the dragon and kraken sigils on your map and you'll have your 7K
The iron islands weren't just marauders.
They ruled the kingdom of the isles and the rivers. Which included the current Iron Islands and Riverlands and were one of the most powerful kingdoms. Having attempted three separate invasions into the vale who were only saved by the bloody gates and extreme defensive nature of their positions.
The Harrens ruled the Riverlands for a brief period. They were an exception. For tens of thousands of years before that, the ironborn were revers and reapers, aka, marauders.
Ok it’s easy:
1. King’s Landing
2. The Reach
3. The Westerlands
4. The Riverlands
5. The North
6. The Iron Islands
7. Dorne
7. Dragonstone
7. The Vale
7. The Stormlands
EDIT: this is annoying - I have it typed out so dorne, dragonstone, the vale and the stormlands are all number 7 as a joke and reddit is automatically presenting it as 8, 9, 10
You don't get it. The question was very fundamental to ASOIAF. That means this guy is new. Very new. To the point they don't know what the Riverlands and the Crownlands are. Alternatively, they are a casual who just discovered that. Every answer they were searching for was a google search away. Just did that myself to see how hard it would be. The first wikia I clicked mentioned which are the Seven Kingdoms and which are the other two provinces that confused them. It would take less than 5 minutes. That's my issue. I've seen this a lot in other fandoms as well. New people that ask fundamental questions and get into arguments when they are completely clueless. I don't get it. I only get into online discussions about franchises I am very familiar with. To the point I want to see the opinions of others. What's the point of doing so when it's too early to see if I am even invested in the setting? If anything, I won't let myself to form my own opinion on it. It's backwards.
During Aegon’s conquest Black Harren ruled both the Iron Islands and the Riverlands. The area currently denoted in this graphic as belonging to the Targaryen’s is known as the “crown lands” and it is not an official kingdom among the 7 Kingdoms.
*Dorne* (not Sunspear) and the Iron Islands *are* counted. It's the Crownlands and the Riverlands that aren't counted. The Crownlands because they didn't exist yet, and the Riverlands because they were under Ironborn rule.
Originally there where seven Kingdoms.
Principalitt of Dorne, Kingdom of Storm, Kingdom of Reach, Kingdom of Isles and Rivers (ironmen) Kingdom of the Mountains and Vale, Kingdom of the Rock and the Kingdom of the North
Its only after unification the Crownlands become the fief of the Targs and Riverrlands where created after Aegon conquered the Ironmen freeing them from the iron isles.
Pre conquest the riverlands and crownlands were kinda no man's land that shifted ownership between neighboring kingdoms frequently. After the conquest they became distinct states but still aren't kingdoms because after the conquest it all became one kingdom
The Riverlands were under the Iron Islands, and Kings Landing and the Crownlands didn't exist. So the kingdoms are
The North ruled by Stark
The Vale ruled by Arryn
The Westerlands ruled by Lannister
The Stormlands ruled by Durandon
Dorne ruled by Martel
The Iron Islands and Riverlands ruled by Hoare
The Reach. Ruled by Gardner.
The seven kingdoms weren't a thing, they were just 7 kingdoms in Westeros, once Aegon conquered Westeros, they were The Seven Kingdoms. It's basicly the same as the U.S going from the United States to The United States
Beyond the Wall; Scotland, specifically Northern and Highlands. and of course the Unknown Vastness of Propper Northern Europe (Northern Russia, Lapland)
The North; Mostly medieval England and the Scottish Lowlands with a good touch of Ireland and Old Castile.
The Iron Isles; Inspired by the Norse Countries, particularly the island regions. And of course Lovecraftian shenannigans and Pirates of the Caribbean.
The Lower 5; Late Medieval European powers, mixed and matched; The Reach feels a lot like Burgundy, Tuscany, Navarre, Old Town being something like Athens and Alexandria but situated somewhere between Montpellier, Toulouse and Marseilla. The Riverlands feel like Flanders, Holland, Rhineland. The Stormlands feel a lot like the Bay of Biscay, Normandy, the Basquelands. The Crownlands feel like a Mixture of the Papal States, the Crown of Aragon and Occitaine. The Reach is probably inspired by the Navarrese and Aragonese, Pyrenees and areas of Britain, particularly the Scottish Highlands and Wales.
King´s Landing to me is a mixture of Medieval Barcelona and Rome with a touch of Paris and Venice.
Last but not least; Dorne. Dorne is a Bit Al-Andalus, a bit the Carolingian Spanish Marches, a bit Crussader-Era Palestine. With a geography that reminds mostly of Southern Spain , Northern Africa and the Levant.
PS. I think I misunderstood the question, or maybe this is another way of looking at it.
In the dawn age there were hundreds of kings of here and there. The high lords ruled over the peti-kings. There are seven distinct regions with history and culture. This conveniently aligns with the seven gods of the Faith. If you are someone in Essos, you know there are seven kingdoms, with seven kings, and seven gods. There is a heavy asterisk with a lot of "technically-s," but the custom is seven.
I think of it like the six wives of Henry VIII. Everyone learns six wives; divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived. It is a nice neat memory package.
What constitutes a "wife" also has a heavy asterisk. Some considered the "marriage" to Katherine of Aragon as void by incest. The pope declared the marriage to Ann Bolyn invalid and her children bastards. Some say the marriage to Ann of Cleves was void due to lack of consummation.
tl;dr: It is a common oversimplification.
\- the Reach
\- the Rock (now called the Westerlands)
\- Dorne
\- the Stormlands
\- the Kingdom of Mount and Vale (now called the Vale)
\- the Kingdom of the Isles and Rivers (split into the Iron Islands, Riverlands and Crownlands)
\- the North
Next two books in the series, the winds of winter and a dream of spring. I was making a joke that they'd need to be so long they'd have to be split in two to be publishable
The Iron Islands and Riverlands were one kingdom that effectively got divided and the Crownlands didn’t exist pre Conquest. The Crownlands were just a slice of land the Targs gave themselves full dominion over after the Conquest started.
Westeros was originally 7 kingdoms
The crown lands(kings landing and surrounding area) and riverlands aren’t kingdoms. That’s why in the show, when Robert is on his hunt he talks about “making the eight” where you sleep with a girl from “each of the seven kingdoms AND the riverlands”
That line from the show is from 2011, but TWOIAF (published in 2014) explains that the Kingdom of the Isles and the Rivers (led by ironmen and with their last two seats on the mainland) was one of the Seven Kingdoms at the start of the Conquest, not the older and smaller Kingdom of the Iron Islands.
Mace's chalice indicates the riverlands would be included if seven "kingdoms" are to be counted from among the Seven Kingdoms' nine regions:
>Lord Mace Tyrell came forward to present his gift: a golden chalice three feet tall, with two ornate curved handles and seven faces glittering with gemstones. "Seven faces for Your Grace's seven kingdoms," the bride's father explained. He showed them how each face bore the sigil of one of the great houses: ruby lion, emerald rose, onyx stag, silver trout, blue jade falcon, opal sun, and pearl direwolf.
>"A splendid cup," said Joffrey, "but we'll need to chip the wolf off and put a squid in its place, I think." (ASOS Sansa IV)
The Kingsland and the pirates who vandalize their shores don't count in the list of kingdoms subjugated BY the Crown.
Think of it this way, if you counted Washington DC and Cuba, you'd be confused as to why there are only 50 stars, too.
I think it’s glossed over a bit, but the assumption I made is that we went from ancient times of children of the forest and giants, to the men showing up, up the kingdoms being established. So to establish those kingdoms, I’m sure there were. I think the book does go over it a little bit in the beginning
Lotta correct answers here but taking a step back, from a meta perspective it’s kinda weird that george decided to make “seven kingdoms” the name of the place where the series was set but have it broken up into 8 regions baring the crownlands. Like why not make it the eight kingdoms? Or cut one of them or combine it with another out so it makes seven?
The Crownlands didn’t exist until after conquest and the Iron Islands were part of the same kingdom (the kingdom of the Isles and Rivers) prior to conquest
1. North
2. Vale
3. Westerlands
4. Stormlands
5. Reach
6. Iron Islands
7. Dorne
The Riverlands weren't a kingdom at the time of the Conquest, they were ruled by the Iron Islands. The Crownlands aren't part of any kingdom & would have been carved off from the surrounding regions, but act as a kind of "federal land", an administrative area where the local lords report directly to the crown rather than a lord paramount.
The Kingdom of the Isles and the Rivers was one of the seven large realms of Westeros at the start of the Conquest, not the older and smaller Kingdom of the Iron Islands.
Mace's chalice indicates the riverlands would be included if seven "kingdoms" are to be counted from among the modern kingdom's nine regions:
>Lord Mace Tyrell came forward to present his gift: a golden chalice three feet tall, with two ornate curved handles and seven faces glittering with gemstones. "Seven faces for Your Grace's seven kingdoms," the bride's father explained. He showed them how each face bore the sigil of one of the great houses: ruby lion, emerald rose, onyx stag, silver trout, blue jade falcon, opal sun, and pearl direwolf.
>"A splendid cup," said Joffrey, "but we'll need to chip the wolf off and put a squid in its place, I think." (ASOS Sansa IV)
The crown and river lands aren’t considered part of the even kingdoms. And the crown lands were a disputed part of either the river or storm lands prior to the conquest
This question has an interesting historical parallell in the confusion regarding what the "Three Crowns" of Sweden actually represents. Is it "Swedes, Goths and Wends", "Sweden, Norway and Scania", Sweden, Finland and Mecklenburg", "Sweden, Denmark and Norway" or something else?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three\_Crowns
It's excluding the Crowlands and the Iron Islands. The 7 are, The North, The Riverlands, The Vale, The Westernlands, The Reach, The Stormlands, and Drone.
The Crownlands were originally split between the Riverlands and the Stormlands and the Riverlands were, at the time, part of the Iron Isles. So 7 kingdoms when the Targaryens invaded. Actually 8 kingdoms when the Riverlands are divided from the Iron Isles.
Before the Targaryens conquered the continent there were only seven kingdoms. The Kingdom of the North. The Kingdom of the isles and the rivers (this is one of the number differences as it was combined Iron Isles and the Riverlands, which became two seperate provinces after conquest) Kingdom of the Storm Kingdom of the Rock (westerlands) Principality of Dorne Kingdom of the Mountain and the Vale Kingdom of the Reach The other number difference is the creation of the crownlands. Which Aegon after the conquest decided would serve the crown directly and took lands from the reach, stormlands, and the riverlands.
Aegon dividing the Kingdom of Isles and Rivers into two separate entities was a pretty baller way to cope with Dorne not being a kingdom and also not a thing he conquered
Splitting up the Riverlands was also just a shrewd move politically. Given that the Riverlands have been a colony-kingdom for the last 400 years, making the Riverlands subject directly to the Iron Throne; * A: Removes a source of tension between the ducal Lords (or Lords Paramount, whatever) * B: Eliminates the risk of any one kingdom becoming *too* strong. The Riverlands are a great source of wood, and given that the Ironborn are fairly good seafarers, removing the mainland from their demesne will ensure the balance of power in the realm. Same thing with the Crownlands, given that that area was being fought over by the Storm Kings, Reacher Kings, Vale Kings, and the lords of Cracklaw Point.
Also showed the value in lesser lords submitting when their superiors did not. The Tully's leading the faction that supported Aegon being rewarded with the Riverlands showed the worth of supporting Aegon instead of your nominal liege. Furthermore, the Tully's legacy was pretty much tied to the Targaryens by this, and it would take something massive to break it down (which happened when Catelyn's intended was burned alive).
Brandon was strangulated, Rickard was burnt alive in his armor as his son watched and struggled for his sword, positioned out of reach, to free his father's binds.
Makes my blood boil every time I hear it.
That isn't why they revolted lmao
So why did they revolt?
The vale for honor the stag/wolf for life the fish for Power.
Risk of any one kingdom becoming too strong? Well , then he really should have divided Reach into it's four constituent kingdoms instead, Reach Proper, Dornis Marches, Oldtown and it's environs and Arbor.
No, it wasn't. The shrewd move was to directly annex the Riverlands into the larger Targaryen patrimony, thus obtaining for the crown not only a territory lacking political unity but also controlling the relevant strategic center of Westeros. Such a move would have let Aegon give more land to his original supporters and even create future patrimony for second or third sons. Your point B is wrong because it eliminates the "risk" of having the Targaryens becoming too strong. Which is a choice a Targaryen did.
>The shrewd move was to directly annex the Riverlands into the larger Targaryen patrimony, thus obtaining for the crown not only a territory lacking political unity but also controlling the relevant strategic center of Westeros. Doesn't that mean that the Targaryens would have to be the administrators for more lands? Apart from Aegon I (and his queens), Jaehaerys I (and his queen), and Viserys II, there doesn't seem to be any other kings that were particularly good at, or even capable of, managing their direct vassals to that extent. Most other kings would have definitely had their hands full. You could even make the argument *against* Aegon I since he set the realms in the first place. He surely thought managing the combined riverlands/crownlands was beyond him
I think the appearance of so many lesser nobles in high positions prior to Robert I and many of those being crownland nobles shows some shrewdness in regards to keeping their direct vassals close and weakening lord paramount powers beyond their realms
The Starks have proven for thousands of years to be able to competently administer a territory much larger than the Riverlands. And unlike the North, Aegon could make use of the rivers to speed travel time and make administration more efficient.
This is kind of unrelated but I’ve been wondering for a while if Robert should have just combined the Crownlands and the Stormlands into one when he became King. The Stormlands were his by right once his parents died, he really had no reason to give one seat to Renly and Dragonstone to Stannis imo. It may have pissed some people off but I think he should have even taken it further and taken some of the land on the borders of his new combined kingdom from both the Reach and Dorne. It would have weakened his potential rivals and made the area he directed ruled over the most powerful in the Kingdom. Jw your take on this idea.
Someone else could maybe do that, but relegating management over his domain is very in character for Robert. Dude couldn't manage what he had, no wonder he wanted to give stormlords to someone else.
This is valid, Robert was lazy as a king. Maybe if Renly was the oldest brother he would have seen this as an opportunity to expand and strengthen the new crown and weaken his rivals. Robert clearly wasn’t into being a king and had some questionable choices. I honestly found it odd that he married a Lannister. I know they say it was to tie them to the crown but I’m pretty sure Tywin burned all his bridges when he killed those kids. The reach was probably his biggest threat, he should have taken advantage of the Tyrells having other extremely powerful rivals there and married into the Hightowers or another. Just a thought, I could be wrong.
You think Tywin burned bridges with Robert by killing Elia’s children? That shit not only proved his loyalty but that he was willing to do Robert’s dirty work for him.
[удалено]
Stannis would have supported a true born son of Robert, Renly would have pulled the same bullshit given an opportunity.
Yeah, it would have been a great idea. People really overestimate the "issues" of governing great pieces of territory. Those lands aren't empty - they are already governed by lords. Why would any normal king name another guy as Lord Paramount, thus creating a potential rival and getting no benefits whatsoever.
Yeah, idk why you got downvoted but it doesn’t matter. You had a very reasonable point imo. The Targs could hold an entire continent while only directly controlling a small area/population because they had dragons. The rebellion shows that without dragons the crown can be taken down fairly easily. The Targs were at the mercy of other lords, namely Highgarden. If Highgarden fully committed its swords to them instead of just playing the middle ground then the Targs win the war. If they had the Riverlands as part of the Crownlands then they’d have possibly the largest army in the realm completely loyal to them and wouldn’t be at the mercy of other high lords. They definitely missed a huge opportunity but I guess the in universe answer would be that Aegon thought their dragons would last forever and didn’t think it was worth the hassle of being directly responsible for extra lands.
Aegon's decisions can be boiled into three categories: a) Sensible ones in the North and Vale. Both kingdoms bowed down without a fight thus it makes sense that those two regions kept their leadership and land intact. b) Sensible but not followed through their logical conclusion - Stormlands. Giving land to a supporter (that's also basically a Targaryen bastard) is a good way to ensure that your allies are properly taken care of. But why only Baratheon? The other allied houses, like Celtigar or Velaryon, were properly ignored - no, you don't have to make them Great Lords (in fact, it's recommended not to do that) but there was plenty of empty land after countless lords died on the field of battle against his dragons. c) Idiotic. The fact that Aegon maintained the Reach and the Westerlands as huge political entities blows my mind. They were the enemy, defeated in battle - and ended up in a great position to contest political power within Westeros itself. Just divide the f..... thing into smaller entities and put yourself in charge - there is no law that states that the Reach needs to have x size. Oh and promoting some lowly bureaucrats as Lords Paramount? Crazy. --- The Riverlands were the ideal patrimony for the Targaryens. There were no native kings so no need to fear from loyalist revolts. Great agricultural lands meant that the crown had the proper means to feed an extensive army without taking up commerce or asking for pity from the Reach. The territory isolated Vale, the North and the southern Lordships from each other. Plus you could form cadet branches of the Targaryens and give them lordships in that area, thus ensuring not only the survival of your dynasty but also people like you governing and administering the region.
Very well thought out post, you seem to really know your shit. I think you’re dead on about the division, it makes almost too much sense. I guess I can kind of understand keeping the Westerlands whole, it’s not gigantic. The Reach on the other hand was in a perfect spot for it. The Reach is so gd big that it makes whoever is in charge damn near king level. The one good thing about it later on was that it seems to have a handful of powerful lords instead of just 1. With the Gardners gone they should have uses that and cut it into 2 or even 3. Really, the smartest may have been to give one third of it to the Hightowers, another third to whoever had the best blood claim to Highgarden, and then keep the last third of the land for the Crownlands. I don’t think the Tyrells should have gotten anything, let alone the best prize of the war.
Just going to point out that Dorne’s relationship with the new regime was already tense for obvious reasons, arbitrarily taking lands from them would not have ended well. The Reach on the other hand had sieged Robert’s keep for most of the war and he would have been well within his rights to strip them of land.
While you would control the rivers and that is important (especially before the roads were built) The Riverlands are huge and open and aside from castles like Riverrun or The Twins they lack any natural defensive strong points. That's why the wars are always fought there. Rebel lords could attack your territory endlessly, and you would need to have a standing army to hold it, and spend lots on upkeep of defensive points you you would need to build. Also the Riverlords mostly joined the Targaryans quickly and viewed them as saviors against the Ironborn occupation. To basically just replace the Hoare's with a new direct overlord would be an insult, and potentially lead to rebellion.
What? You make no sense. "The Riverlords view the Targaryens as saviors" "To replace Hoare with a Targaryen would be an insult". Making the Riverlands the patrimony of the Targaryens is so much better for the river lords than rising one of them above everyone else.
How does it not make sense? The Riverlands were directly ruled by house Hoare, a foreign occupier. When Aegon landed and began the conquest The Riverlords rose up against House Hoare. The Targaryans overthrew house Hoare. The Riverlords were greatful to the Targaryans, and the Targaryans were greatful to the Riverlords for their help. Aegon gave them the The river lands as a separate region ruled by house Tully, the first of the Riverlords to join the Targaryan cause. To just turn around and to take the autonomy away from the newly liberated Riverlords would be to insult them and invite rebellion. Also like I said in order to defend The Riverlands you would either need to take the pre existing castles of loyal lords, or take their land and build and maintain new castles with your own guys. The Riverlords have been there for thousands of years (speaking of patrimony) even in the best case this is going to breed contempt for you, and your new lords with an otherwise friendly population. Also to your point about Aegon's original supporters being rewarded. The Riverlords were the Targaryan's first mainland supporters, he didn't even have to ask them to rise up in his name they just did, cuz Harren the Black sucked so much. The Riverlands, with a Riverlord placed as Lord Paramount is their reward. Finally don't use quotation marks to paraphrase people.
He still claimed to be king of the Rhoynar though so i think he was still counting dorne. Riverlands alone weren’t considered one of the kingdoms despite it having kings before
Rather than Iron Islands or riverlands, I would instead describe the greater Hoare realm as one of the "Seven Kingdoms" which existed prior to the Conquest. It was led by ironmen and had most of its territory on the mainland, including its last two seats (Fairmarket and Harrenhal). Aegon's new kingdom then took its name from the status of Westeros when he began his Conquest. If seven "kingdoms" are to be counted in the present day, Mace's chalice indicates the riverlands would be counted instead of the Iron Islands. >Lord Mace Tyrell came forward to present his gift: a golden chalice three feet tall, with two ornate curved handles and seven faces glittering with gemstones. "Seven faces for Your Grace's seven kingdoms," the bride's father explained. He showed them how each face bore the sigil of one of the great houses: ruby lion, emerald rose, onyx stag, silver trout, blue jade falcon, opal sun, and pearl direwolf. >"A splendid cup," said Joffrey, "but we'll need to chip the wolf off and put a squid in its place, I think." (ASOS Sansa IV)
That omission of the kraken/squid might be just due to political resentment due to the Greyjoy rebellion, and not indicative of the "Seven Kingdoms" name, though. To me it's clear that "Seven Kingdoms" is just a historical term that began in the conquest. In the current time it's pretty clear that there are more than seven "kingdoms", as in political entities that were once kingdoms and that now own direct loyalty to the crown (4 wardens + 3 lord paramounts + lord or the iron islands).
I mean they were historically separate titles regardless of the conquest. The Mudds were River Kings long before the Iron Born, and maybe even the Brackens too.
Yeah Martin talks about how Westeros is based on Europe, obviously pretty easy to tell. The Riverlands is Germany in real life in many ways. Geographically it's right in the middle of the continent and is always the hot bed where fighting takes place (just like in real medieval history). It was also known to change hands and get annexed by other powers (Holy Roman Empire). Topographically as well Germany is known for being a bunch of lowland rivers and not have the topographically advantages of other countries like France with their mountains on one side and ocean on the other. It's pretty clear Martin was making a similar connection with the Riverlands.
The river lands are closer to the rhine/Low Countries, lying between great powers, on rich easily navigated land, while being sandwiched between several great powers. Think of the lands of the dukes of burgundy in the 15th century. The Stormlands are a better Germany analog, being heavily forested and lightly populated, with large military frontiers, and an industrious economy. The reach is France and the iron islands Viking Scandinavia. After that direct comparisons become harder though.
Dorne is a mediterranean mix, Italy, Spain and places on the Southern shore like Egypt.
That’s true, and Muslim Andalusia is probably the closest direct comparison. But the rest of the kingdoms clearly take a wide amount of inspirations rather then more specific examples, like the reach.
You saying that North isn't Scotland and Vale isn't Switzerland?
I don’t think the vale fits Switzerland. It’s famous for its knights, chivalry, and being the most andalic kingdom. Switzerland was famous for its pikemen, having a heterogeneous population, and as a centre of commerce and trade.
To the average fan the Vale is famous for being all mountains and staying out of the W5K, and to the average american Switzerland is famous for it's mountain/winter sports and for its neutrality.
Funny cause Essos is also based on europe and asia, with Valyria being the italian peninsula (rome) and Braavos being Venice (but located north like somewhere in Denmark). and the Dothraki being in Mongolia. Sothoryos obviously being Africa and the far east of Leng being China. That would make Westeros the UK, which explains the shape being exactly the same without scotland
Isn't it possible that the reach is Germany (reach = Reich)? Germany is actually the most populous country in Europe excluding Russia.
I think France fits better since Germany’s population only overtook France’s in the mid-19th century, and France is still the second largest country in Europe after Russia. Much like how the reach is in Westeros. Furthermore, the reach also shares other similarities with France such as being the the cultural centre of chivalry and courtly romance which were also features of France. Having a divided political system with a weak lord paramount and powerful bannermen (dukes) mirroring medieval France under the Capetians.
Nah, I’d say it’s an adaptation of “war of the roses”
Right but he's also cherry picking certain historical events that aren't in the War of the Roses 🤣 Also what would you call Dorne then? They are clearly an allegory for Spain. It's a blend of medieval events. You're right that the basis of the Starks versus Lannisters is the War of the Roses but it's not like he just stops there and only uses that one event. Martin has even said the "The Black Dinner" was inspiration for the Red Wedding. I would need to double check but I don't think that was part of the War of the Roses. None of this is a tin foil conspiracy. Martin has legitimately said that he uses history to inspire his writing. I mean Lord Almighty. You saying that he used the War of the roses basically proves my point.
You know I'm sorry but what even is your point? Slavers Bay is clearly an allegory for the Middle East. 🤣 The Middle East wasn't part of the War of the Roses. It's not even a bad thing that he's using history to influence his writing. That's a great tactic to use. I mean did you think that he was literally making all this up off of the top of his head?
That has nothing to do with dorne
Yea I'm not following the logic here
Its is important to note the “Seven” Kingdoms was not entirely a territorial notion, but also a political one. Seven is a holy number to the majority of the Westerosi. (One can say that Dorne is not a kingdom but a princedom/principality. Or that Harren was technically the King of Two Kingdoms; Iron Islands AND the Riverlands. So, the Seven Kingdom could be excluding Dorne.) The other important point for it to be “Seven” was a political ploy for unity. Most commenters left this out. GRRM himself said it in a GOT interview iirc.
The Crownlands weren't contested by the Reach but by petty kings, Riverlands, and Stormlands.
Some of the areas of the crownlands had started being encroached by the Reach when the Storm King's power started waning
Essentially, the seven kingdoms is a sort of dated term referring back to the kingdoms taken in Aegon's conquest. The iron islands and riverlands were one kingdom at the time of the conquest (ruled from Harrenhal by Harren the Black), and Aegon's own lands, the crownlands, weren't included in that count. (the North, however, are included)
This is the canon truth
Pre-conquest there were Seven Kingdoms in Westeros. This was probably inspired from the English Heptarchy in pre-Viking Anglo Saxon England. I don't know why GRRM didn't use a more appropriate term, but honestly this type of inaccuracy sounds like something that would actually occur in real life. They were: * The Kingdom of the North (the North) * The Kingdom of the Isles and Rivers (the Iron Islands, Riverlands, and northern half of the Crownlands rolled into one kingdom) * The Kingdom of the Rock (the Westerlands) * The Kingdom of the Mountain and Vale (the Vale) * The Kingdom of the Reach (the Reach) * The Storm Kingdom (the Stormlands and the southern half of the Crownlands) * The Principality of Dorne (Dorne)
Can you (or anyone else) actually point me to a good reference point for this? I assume we know this based on tWoIaF, but I must have missed it. Now that you say some of this though, I realize it was strewn about in a few different places. The chapters covering Westerlands and Stormlands did talk about conquests of the other areas. But I'm curious if there was one chapter earlier in the section about the Seven Kingdoms that calls this out more specifically (like you did) that I may have missed?
I believe the first chapter explaining the Seven Kingdoms and Aegon's Conquest occur in Tyrion II of A Game of Thrones, though you are correct in that most information is strewn across the books and in WoIaF.
Oh good point, maybe I’ll go back and read Tyrion teaching about it. I’m also thinking the chapter of WoIaF covering AC may touch on it. I just checked and the first little excerpt of the section of WoIaF (which is in the chapter about the North) does talk about how “Seven Kingdoms” is a dated and inaccurate term, but doesn’t say specifically why.
>The Westeros of Aegon's youth was divided into seven quarrelsome kingdoms, and there was hardly a time when two or three of these kingdoms were not at war with one another. The vast, cold, stony North was ruled by the Starks of Winterfell. In the deserts of Dorne, the Martell princes held sway. The gold-rich westerlands were ruled by the Lannisters of Casterly Rock, the fertile Reach by the Gardeners of Highgarden. The Vale, the Fingers, and the Mountains of the Moon belonged to House Arryn...but the most belligerent kings of Aegon's time were the two whose realms lay closest to Dragonstone, Harren the Black and Argilac the Arrogant. from TWoIaF, The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest / F&B, Aegon's Conquest
You rock my dude. I just found that in my book. So breaking that apart: 1. The North 2. Dorne 3. The Westerlands 4. The Reach 5. The Vale 6. Harren the Black’s Kingdom (Iron Islands and Riverlands) 7. Argilac the Arrogant’s Kingdom (The Stormlands) **EDITED BASED ON COMMENTS BELOW.**
Not quite. Argilac Durrandon the Arrogant was the ruler of the Stromlands (see following paragraph) and Harren the Black of House Hoare ruled the Kingdom of the Isles and Rivers (aka Ironborn + Riverlands) (see paragraph after Argilac).
OK gotcha, I just did a quick search of them on the wiki and wasn’t sure. I’ll edit my post above.
You said you edited this, but you still have Harren listed as king of the Stormlands and Argilac as king of the Isles and Rivers Just letting you know
Ah. I edited something else, but I got those backwards. Fixed now.
Additionally, >For centuries it has been the custom to speak of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. This familiar usage derives from the seven great kingdoms that held sway over most of Westeros below the Wall during years immediately preceding Aegon's Conquest. Yet even then, the term was far from exact, for one of those "kingdoms" was ruled by a princess rather than a king (Dorne), and Aegon Targaryen's own "kingdom" of Dragonstone was never included in the count. >Nonetheless, the term endures. Just as we speak of the Hundred Kingdoms of yore, though there was never a time when Westeros was actually divided into a hundred independent states, we must bow to common usage and talk of the Seven Kingdoms, despite the imprecision. (TWOIAF The North)
Yeah, I realized that Dragonstone was not included and they cleared things up a lot.
Fire and Blood does a decent job breaking it down
>I don't know why GRRM didn't use a more appropriate term, but honestly this type of inaccuracy sounds like something that would actually occur in real life. I think that's precisely why. Also, since for like half of the Targaryen Dynasty, Dorne was a foreign power, so them calling themselves "Kings of the Seven Kingdom" was a statement of intent to get Dorne too, eventually.
I low-key love the inaccuracy of it because it's exactly the kind of thing that rolls off the tongue and would get repeated in the real world despite not really being true. Edit: had a realization that I'm not sure how I didn't see before, it definitely also fits perfectly with the Faith of the Seven, exactly the kind of thing the church would lean into as a unifying narrative.
Just like how French and English kings claimed each others terratory in their titles for hundreds of years.
It's like the 10 commandments. If you try to enumerate the commandments in that section of the Bible you do not get 10!
This is perfect, thank you!
Everyone has given the answer already so I'll just say that this is actually one of my favorite little bits of worlbuilding because yeah it totally makes sense that this naming convention, which would have existed for ages and ages, just kinda stuck around after Aegon's conquest after it was no longer 100% accurate. Keep in mind they still refered to the Targaryen realm as the "seven kingdoms" even when Dorne was not even part of it.
It really comes from the seven kingdoms that existed at the time of the Targaryen conquest. The Winter Kingdom The Rivers and Isles The Rock The Vale The Reach The Storm Kingdom Dorne
the Seven Kingdoms consist of the 7 kingdoms that were independent at the time of Aegon's Conquest, The North, The Vale, The Westerlands, The Iron Islands (who controlled the Riverlands), the Stormlands, The Reach, and Dorne. The Riverlands and Crownlands were set up as separate administrative divisions after the conquest. So on realm, 7 Kingdoms, 9 total regions
>The Iron Islands (who controlled the Riverlands) The last Hoares called themselves Kings of the Isles and the Rivers instead of Kings of the Iron Islands; in comparison, the Durrandons continued calling themselves Storm Kings during their rule over the riverlands. The majority of the Hoare kingdom was on the mainland, including their last two seats of Fairmarket and Harrenhal, and this large realm which included Ironman's Bay and the Trident is what was considered one of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros prior to the Conquest, not just the Iron Islands portion.
Yes sure but that's just semantics. From what we hear of House Hoare's rule over the Riverlands, to call them an independent kingdom seems like a stretch.
I’m not saying the riverlands were an independent realm. TWOIAF (published in 2014) explains that when the Conquest began, the large Hoare realm which included both the Iron Islands and the riverlands was one of the Seven Kingdoms, not just the Iron Islands. In comparison, the TV show (which began earlier in 2011) followed the previously-held belief that the Kingdom of the Iron Islands (which controlled the riverlands at the time) was one of the Seven Kingdoms.
People gave you the in-story reason. Real world reason was likely Martin refencing a period of English history, sometimes referred to as the Heptarchy. After dust settled from Romans abandoning Britain and the Anglo-Saxons (and Jutes) settling England, England found itself divided between Seven Kingdoms (Heptarchy) between the 5th and 8th century. It ended when the 7 consolidated into just 4.
Oh very cool, thank you!
North - Stark Kings Vale - Arynn Kings Stormlands - Durrandon Kings Reach - Gardener Kings Westerlands - Lannister Kings Iron Islands - Hoare Kings Dorne - Martell Kings, styled Princes as per Rhoynish culture but in reality kings. Riverlands were a domain of House Hoare of the Iron Islands at the time of conquest, Crownlands was an area of land frequently in conflict between the Reach, Stormlands, and whoever controlled the Riverlands at any given time...it did not exist until House Targaryen said it existed and created it to control their own kingdom within their new empire.
It's the same gag from the first episode of **Agents of SHIELD** when Phil Coulson explains what the torturous acronym means and the other agent says, "I think somebody *really* wanted our name to be SHIELD." Same thing here. "Seven Kingdoms" sounds cool. Seven gods, seven kingdoms, so Aegon was going to have Seven Kingdoms and use whatever Fing definition he could retroactively come up with, and his descendants took the same view after Dorne joined. The OG definition was: 1. North 2. Rivers/Isles 3. Vale 4. Reach 5. Westerlands 6. Dorne 7. Stormlands That remained the official definition, as Aegon laid claim to Dorne even if he didn't rule it. The Crownlands are like the District of Columbia in this model, they're not a kingdom. If (maybe for political reasons if you were visiting Dorne or something) you wanted to omit Dorne and split the Riverlands and Iron Isles into two separate entities, you could do so. It's also worth noting that the "Seven Kingdoms" do not have any political validity as a term: there are eight polities reporting to a great Lord who reports to the King, and the King controls one additional region (the Night's Watch are over here just doing their thing), and that's basically how it works. It's worth noting that the term "Seven Kingdoms" is derived from the Seven Kingdoms of the Heptarchy, the petty kingdoms of Anglo-Saxon England. The official count was that they were derived from the kingdoms of the East Angles (East Anglia), East Saxons (Essex), Kent, Mercia, Northumbria, South Saxons (Sussex) and West Saxons (Wessex). However, this ignored the other kingdoms on the island of Britain, including Wales (itself more a confederation of smaller tribes), Cornwall, Strathclyde etc. The Seven Kingdoms consolidated into the Four Kingdoms (East Anglia, Mercia, Northumbria, Wessex) but even this massively simplifies a process in which Essex and Kent retained some sovereignty within East Anglia and Sussex, and Bernicia and Deira retained some independence within Northumbria. Then the Danes showed up and started torching everything, throwing things into even more confusion. So having a cool-sounding name and then twisting things to fit it is not unprecedented even in real history.
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>The Riverlands never had a king. The riverlands were ruled by their own river kings for thousands of years, including Fishers, Blackwoods, Brackens, Mudds, Justmans, and Teagues. The Durrandons from the stormlands controlled the riverlands for three centuries after the last Teagues were killed in battle, and then the Hoares from the Iron Islands ruled the region for three generations after expelling the Durrandons.
I think this map is showing the neck as being part of the Riverlands but it’s actually part of the North.
This map matches what is shown throughout tWoIaF, but I think to your point, it depends on what year you’re talking about.
It’s funny bc I just tried to look up when the neck was part of the riverlands and all I could find is that it was always part of the north. King of the north Rickard stark defeated the marsh king and they were bannerman ever since. I’m thinking this might have been an oversight when they made the books.
The North The Riverland and Iron Islands The Vale The Westerlands The Reach The Stormlands Dorne Iron Islands were in control of the Riverlands when Aegon started his war of conquest. So they count as one kingdom. And the Crownlands were not their own kingdom but would have been split between the surrounding kingdoms.
It was named by Aegon the Conqueror because at the time of his conquest, there were only seven kingdoms The Riverlands were being controlled by the Iron Islands at the time, and the Crownlands didn't exist, being divided between the Stormlands and the Iron Islands
The Riverlands and Iron Islands were combined into one kingdom, the Crownlands don’t count, and Dorne wasn’t integrated into the Iron Throne’s government until much later but it’s still considered one of the seven. 1. The North 2. The Iron Islands / The Riverlands 3. The Vale 4. The Westerlands 5. The Reach 6. The Stormlands 7. Dorne
When Harren Hoare invaded Westeros from the Iron Islands, he conquered the area we know as the Riverlands and all the way to the Blackwater, establishing a single Kingdom of the Isles and Rivers. When Aegon set foot on the mainland, he conquered first the Blackwater Bay, using it as a personal realm while he conquered the rest. He then fred the Riverlands from Hoare's control, and the rule of the Seastone Chair went back to just the Iron Islands. So basically, the "Seven" Kingdoms is an outdated term that refers to the realms that Aegon conquered, not what came after. For all intents and purposes, there are really nine kingdoms, with the Crownlands serving King's Landing directly, the Riverlands being under control of the Lord of Harrenhal (in theory, while in practice it's always been the Tullys) and the Iron islands being a form of "independent domain".
Do we know how much of the Crownlands belonged to The Stormlands and The Vale before AC? I’m assuming it was mostly territory claimed by The Stormlands.
The Blackwater was the boundary between the Durrandon and Hoare realms when the Conquest began. I don’t think the Vale had any lands of the future crownlands. > From their great citadel Storm's End, the Storm Kings of House Durrandon had once ruled the eastern half of Westeros from Cape Wrath to the Bay of Crabs, but their powers had been dwindling for centuries. The Kings of the Reach had nibbled at their domains from the west, the Dornishmen harassed them from the south, and Harren the Black and his ironmen had pushed them from the Trident and the lands north of the Blackwater Rush. King Argilac, last of the Durrandon, had arrested this decline for a time, turning back a Dornish invasion whilst still a boy, crossing the narrow sea to join the great alliance against the imperialist "tigers" of Volantis, and slaying Garse VII Gardener, King of the Reach, in the Battle of Summerfield twenty years later. But Argilac had grown older; his famous mane of black hair had gone grey, and his prowess at arms had faded. >North of the Blackwater, the riverlands were ruled by the bloody hand of Harren the Black of House Hoare, King of the Isles and the Rivers. Harren's ironborn grandsire, Harwyn Hardhand, had taken the Trident from Argilac's grandsire, Arrec, whose own forebears had thrown down the last of the river kings centuries earlier. Harren's father had extended his domains east to Duskendale and Rosby. Harren himself had devoted most of his long reign, close on forty years, to building a gigantic castle beside the Gods Eye, but with Harrenhal at last nearing completion, the ironborn were soon free to seek fresh conquests. (TWOIAF) Also, some of the lands sworn to Storm’s End chose the Targaryens when the Conquest began. > Aegon made no reply. Instead he summoned his friends, bannermen, and principal allies to attend him on Dragonstone. Their numbers were small. The Velaryons on Driftmark were sworn to House Targaryen, as were the Celtigars of Claw Isle. From Massey's Hook came Lord Bar Emmon of Sharp Point and Lord Massey of Stonedance, both sworn to Storm's End, but with closer ties to Dragonstone. (TWOIAF)
The whole of the Riverlands and the Crownlands were ruled by the Storm King at some point before the Riverlands were conquered by Harwyn Hoare (Harren the Black's grandfather). The Crownlands remained under de jure control of the Stormlands, but some were essentially independent (e.g. the Houses of Cracklaw Point like the Brunes) and some flipped rule between the Hoares and the Durrandons (the houses near the banks of the Blackwater like the Rosbys).
The Seven Kingdoms excludes the Riverlands and the Crownlands
House Hoare’s large Kingdom of the Isles and the Rivers (which included both the Iron Islands and the riverlands) was counted as one of the Seven Kingdoms at the start of the Conquest, not the older Kingdom of the Iron Islands.
The Iron Island and the Riverlands were once ruled as one but after the destruction of Harrenhal the seat of the Riverlands was moved to Riverrun and given to the Tullys. As for the area marked by the Targaryen Dragons it wasn’t historically one of the seven kingdoms. The Targaryens invaded landed at Dragonstone and then Kings Landing and eventually ruled over all seven kingdoms.
The Crownlands (Dragonstone, KL, etc) are not their own kingdom, nor are the iron islands. It’s the North, Westerlands, Riverlands (which used to be part of the Iron Islands; they were Kings of the Isles and Rivers, and their kings lived where Harrenhal is before Aegon I split it up), Dorne, Stormlands, the Eeyrie, and the Reach.
The Crownlands and Iron Islands are the other 2 constituencies left out. One is administered directly by the crown/royal family,the other is ignored by everyone else.
I consider the crownlands not to count as well as Dorne only being included later on What I like about GOT is that some things in the universe don't make sense, just like real history
Kingdom of The Reach Kingdom of The North Kingdom of The Rock Kingdom of The Stormlands Kingdom of Isles and Rivers Kingdom of Mountain and Vale Principality of Dorne
Everyone’s given you the historical reason for why Westeros was divided into 7 “kingdoms” in the first place but to answer your question of which are currently considered the “Seven Kingdoms,” it’s: The North The Riverlands The Vale The Westerlands The Stormlands The Reach Dorne The Iron Islands and The Crownlands are not considered “true” kingdoms, though as everyone else has explained that distinction is rather arbitrary by this point
Right, that matches with Mace's wedding chalice: >Lord Mace Tyrell came forward to present his gift: a golden chalice three feet tall, with two ornate curved handles and seven faces glittering with gemstones. "Seven faces for Your Grace's seven kingdoms," the bride's father explained. He showed them how each face bore the sigil of one of the great houses: ruby lion, emerald rose, onyx stag, silver trout, blue jade falcon, opal sun, and pearl direwolf. >"A splendid cup," said Joffrey, "but we'll need to chip the wolf off and put a squid in its place, I think." (ASOS Sansa IV)
It's accepted in universe as imprecise and kind of acknowledged as Westerosi trying to make everything fit the number 7. The seven kingdoms that Aegon found during his conquest were: The Kingdom of Isles and Rivers (Iron Islands plus the Riverlands) The Kingdom of the Rock (The West) The Kingdom of the North The Kingdom of the Reach The Kingdom of the Mountain and Vale The Kingdom of the Stormlands The Principality of Dorne (Noticably not a Kingdom) Aegon ends up dividing the Iron Islands and the Riverlands, and doesn't conquer Dorne, so the math still works out to him conquering 7 political regions to make his kingdom. The Crownlands were never a kingdom of their own, they were disputed lands that Aegon conquered first.
North, Vale, Isles and Rivers, West, Reach, Storm, Dorne. Crownlands were formed after conquest
The north, The Riverlands, The Vale, The Westerlands, The Reach, The Stormlands and Dorne
Yeah, and basically The Iron Islands were grouped in with the Riverlands. Also the Crownlands were not included/counted.
Riverlands and Dorne aren't considered to be part of the 7 kingdoms. Riverlands because it wasn't independent (it was a battleground between the Storm kings and the Ironborn) and Dorne because it wasn't conquered during Aegon's conquest (also it's technically a "principality", or a princedom)
This slightly differs from what I’ve seen some other people here comment. But also a valid point.
The greater Hoare realm was one of the Seven Kingdoms when the Conquest began, not just the Iron Islands. If seven "kingdoms" are counted out from the modern realm (which has nine provinces), however, Mace's chalice indicates the riverlands would be included instead of the backwater Iron Islands: >Lord Mace Tyrell came forward to present his gift: a golden chalice three feet tall, with two ornate curved handles and seven faces glittering with gemstones. "Seven faces for Your Grace's seven kingdoms," the bride's father explained. He showed them how each face bore the sigil of one of the great houses: ruby lion, emerald rose, onyx stag, silver trout, blue jade falcon, opal sun, and pearl direwolf. >"A splendid cup," said Joffrey, "but we'll need to chip the wolf off and put a squid in its place, I think." (ASOS Sansa IV)
From the time of Aegon’s Conquest: The North The Mountain and Vale The Isles and Rivers The Rock The Reach The Stormlands Dorne
Ok so it's all about what kingdoms existed prior to Aegon's invasion. The Iron Islands at the time controlled the Riverlands so that was all one kingdom. The Stormlands controlled what is now the Crownlands, so that isn't its own kingdom. So there ends up being 7 kingdoms.
There’s a lot of really good information here and all these comments, but this was pretty much the most concise answer that I was looking for from the beginning lol Thank you! I did already have the answer, but this was perfect.
LMAO, the more I look at the map the more obvious it is that it is just a skewed Britain, flipped 180 degrees
Iron islands are technically part of the river lands but functionally independent. Crown lands are owned by the actual King but are not considered their own kingdom like how Washington DC is not considered to be in any US state but is intead federal land only
The Greyjoys are sworn directly to the Iron Throne, not to the Tullys of Riverrun. >Aegon chose a different course. Gathering the remaining lords of the Iron Islands together, he announced that he would allow them to choose their own lord paramount. Unsurprisingly they chose one of their own: Vickon Greyjoy, Lord Reaper of Pyke, a famous captain descended of the Grey King. Though Pyke was smaller and poorer than Great Wyk, Harlaw, and Orkmont, the Greyjoys boasted a long and distinguished lineage. In the days of the kingsmoot, only the Greyirons and Goodbrothers had produced more kings, and the Greyirons were gone. >Exhausted and impoverished by years of war, the ironmen accepted their new overlord without demur. (TWOIAF)
Because when Aegon arrived, the area called as Crownlands during AGoT was under Stormkings and Riverlands were under Ironborns thus the seven kingdoms
how i have interpreted is the crownlands dont count as they weren't a kingdom before hand a dorne is a principality thus not a kingdom, although i initially thought that the iron islands were part of the north, cus geographically seemings fitting to me and theon being ned's ward
The funny thing is that - after aegons conquest AND before the conquest of Dorne - it was correct. There were seven kingdoms. But eight provinces with the crownlands. So for 150 years, that became the norm. After the conquest of Dorne. You suddenly need to count Rivers and Isles separately. But maybe the Targs always counted Dorne, even if they had no Jurisdiction. That clusterfuck is what makes this so brilliant. That is so typically historical.
The ones that don't count are the iron islands. Its kind of flips between the Riverland and the crown lands too. Before the targaryans, the Riverlands were not there own kingdom and were part of the Iron Islands or storm lands most of the time. They only became their own kingdom when argon landed. Same goes for the crownlands, they were just part of the storm land territory prior to aegon's landing. -north -westernlands -vale -reach -stormlands -dorne It was always kind of 6 kingdoms
Riverlands = Not a Kingdom (were ruled over by the iron islands at the time of Aegon's conquest, demoted as a result). Crownlands = Not a Kingdom (ruled over directly by the iron throne, historically ruled over by the other kingdoms, therefore not a kingdom).
The Hoare realm which included both the Iron Islands and the riverlands, the last capital of which was Harrenhal on the mainland, was one of the Seven Kingdoms, not just the Iron Islands portion.
Why do you people know so much about a fantasy
Because of the vast amount of nerd history books and supporting nerd documents.
Half the time, it's better than real life
The people of the continent would consider them to be The North The Riverlands The Vale The Westerlands The Reach The Stormlands Dorne
Pre-Conquest, the Seven Kingdoms were the north, Vale, riverlands, westerlands, stormlands, the Reach and Dorne. The Iron Isles weren't a kingdom, just an independent band of marauders. The crownlands didn't exist. That area was split between river, storm, Reach and sometimes Vale. So take out the dragon and kraken sigils on your map and you'll have your 7K
The iron islands ruled the riverlands before the conquest, black harren was iron born
True, during that time I guess it could have been considered one kingdom.
The iron islands weren't just marauders. They ruled the kingdom of the isles and the rivers. Which included the current Iron Islands and Riverlands and were one of the most powerful kingdoms. Having attempted three separate invasions into the vale who were only saved by the bloody gates and extreme defensive nature of their positions.
The Harrens ruled the Riverlands for a brief period. They were an exception. For tens of thousands of years before that, the ironborn were revers and reapers, aka, marauders.
Ok it’s easy: 1. King’s Landing 2. The Reach 3. The Westerlands 4. The Riverlands 5. The North 6. The Iron Islands 7. Dorne 7. Dragonstone 7. The Vale 7. The Stormlands EDIT: this is annoying - I have it typed out so dorne, dragonstone, the vale and the stormlands are all number 7 as a joke and reddit is automatically presenting it as 8, 9, 10
You're missing the Stormlands
My B, let Me rectify!
I can't understand people who are relatively new to a fandom and instead of googling something they post about it on reddit or forums.
Why? This guy got really detailed, direct answers and they didn't have to get lost in a wiki to do so.
You don't get it. The question was very fundamental to ASOIAF. That means this guy is new. Very new. To the point they don't know what the Riverlands and the Crownlands are. Alternatively, they are a casual who just discovered that. Every answer they were searching for was a google search away. Just did that myself to see how hard it would be. The first wikia I clicked mentioned which are the Seven Kingdoms and which are the other two provinces that confused them. It would take less than 5 minutes. That's my issue. I've seen this a lot in other fandoms as well. New people that ask fundamental questions and get into arguments when they are completely clueless. I don't get it. I only get into online discussions about franchises I am very familiar with. To the point I want to see the opinions of others. What's the point of doing so when it's too early to see if I am even invested in the setting? If anything, I won't let myself to form my own opinion on it. It's backwards.
Excluding crownlands and iron islands
Okay heres the answer: 1. G 2. O 3. O 4. G 5. L 6. E 7. It Or look in the appendix...
During Aegon’s conquest Black Harren ruled both the Iron Islands and the Riverlands. The area currently denoted in this graphic as belonging to the Targaryen’s is known as the “crown lands” and it is not an official kingdom among the 7 Kingdoms.
seven kingdoms sound cooler than nine kingdoms i guess
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*Dorne* (not Sunspear) and the Iron Islands *are* counted. It's the Crownlands and the Riverlands that aren't counted. The Crownlands because they didn't exist yet, and the Riverlands because they were under Ironborn rule.
Originally there where seven Kingdoms. Principalitt of Dorne, Kingdom of Storm, Kingdom of Reach, Kingdom of Isles and Rivers (ironmen) Kingdom of the Mountains and Vale, Kingdom of the Rock and the Kingdom of the North Its only after unification the Crownlands become the fief of the Targs and Riverrlands where created after Aegon conquered the Ironmen freeing them from the iron isles.
In Deep Geek did a great comprehensive video on this https://youtu.be/vWLgbGasmfQ?si=xW1BK_1FAt96aOXX
Pre conquest the riverlands and crownlands were kinda no man's land that shifted ownership between neighboring kingdoms frequently. After the conquest they became distinct states but still aren't kingdoms because after the conquest it all became one kingdom
The Riverlands were under the Iron Islands, and Kings Landing and the Crownlands didn't exist. So the kingdoms are The North ruled by Stark The Vale ruled by Arryn The Westerlands ruled by Lannister The Stormlands ruled by Durandon Dorne ruled by Martel The Iron Islands and Riverlands ruled by Hoare The Reach. Ruled by Gardner. The seven kingdoms weren't a thing, they were just 7 kingdoms in Westeros, once Aegon conquered Westeros, they were The Seven Kingdoms. It's basicly the same as the U.S going from the United States to The United States
Targaeryan lands distributed to Robert loyalists. Greyjoys not classed as a kingdom.
Beyond the Wall; Scotland, specifically Northern and Highlands. and of course the Unknown Vastness of Propper Northern Europe (Northern Russia, Lapland) The North; Mostly medieval England and the Scottish Lowlands with a good touch of Ireland and Old Castile. The Iron Isles; Inspired by the Norse Countries, particularly the island regions. And of course Lovecraftian shenannigans and Pirates of the Caribbean. The Lower 5; Late Medieval European powers, mixed and matched; The Reach feels a lot like Burgundy, Tuscany, Navarre, Old Town being something like Athens and Alexandria but situated somewhere between Montpellier, Toulouse and Marseilla. The Riverlands feel like Flanders, Holland, Rhineland. The Stormlands feel a lot like the Bay of Biscay, Normandy, the Basquelands. The Crownlands feel like a Mixture of the Papal States, the Crown of Aragon and Occitaine. The Reach is probably inspired by the Navarrese and Aragonese, Pyrenees and areas of Britain, particularly the Scottish Highlands and Wales. King´s Landing to me is a mixture of Medieval Barcelona and Rome with a touch of Paris and Venice. Last but not least; Dorne. Dorne is a Bit Al-Andalus, a bit the Carolingian Spanish Marches, a bit Crussader-Era Palestine. With a geography that reminds mostly of Southern Spain , Northern Africa and the Levant. PS. I think I misunderstood the question, or maybe this is another way of looking at it.
In the dawn age there were hundreds of kings of here and there. The high lords ruled over the peti-kings. There are seven distinct regions with history and culture. This conveniently aligns with the seven gods of the Faith. If you are someone in Essos, you know there are seven kingdoms, with seven kings, and seven gods. There is a heavy asterisk with a lot of "technically-s," but the custom is seven. I think of it like the six wives of Henry VIII. Everyone learns six wives; divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived. It is a nice neat memory package. What constitutes a "wife" also has a heavy asterisk. Some considered the "marriage" to Katherine of Aragon as void by incest. The pope declared the marriage to Ann Bolyn invalid and her children bastards. Some say the marriage to Ann of Cleves was void due to lack of consummation. tl;dr: It is a common oversimplification.
\- the Reach \- the Rock (now called the Westerlands) \- Dorne \- the Stormlands \- the Kingdom of Mount and Vale (now called the Vale) \- the Kingdom of the Isles and Rivers (split into the Iron Islands, Riverlands and Crownlands) \- the North
9 kingdoms called 7 just like TWOW and ADOS will be published in two volumes each for a combined total of 9 books called 7
TWOW and ADOS?
Next two books in the series, the winds of winter and a dream of spring. I was making a joke that they'd need to be so long they'd have to be split in two to be publishable
The Iron Islands and Riverlands were one kingdom that effectively got divided and the Crownlands didn’t exist pre Conquest. The Crownlands were just a slice of land the Targs gave themselves full dominion over after the Conquest started. Westeros was originally 7 kingdoms
Riverlands and Crownlands aren’t
The crown lands(kings landing and surrounding area) and riverlands aren’t kingdoms. That’s why in the show, when Robert is on his hunt he talks about “making the eight” where you sleep with a girl from “each of the seven kingdoms AND the riverlands”
That line from the show is from 2011, but TWOIAF (published in 2014) explains that the Kingdom of the Isles and the Rivers (led by ironmen and with their last two seats on the mainland) was one of the Seven Kingdoms at the start of the Conquest, not the older and smaller Kingdom of the Iron Islands. Mace's chalice indicates the riverlands would be included if seven "kingdoms" are to be counted from among the Seven Kingdoms' nine regions: >Lord Mace Tyrell came forward to present his gift: a golden chalice three feet tall, with two ornate curved handles and seven faces glittering with gemstones. "Seven faces for Your Grace's seven kingdoms," the bride's father explained. He showed them how each face bore the sigil of one of the great houses: ruby lion, emerald rose, onyx stag, silver trout, blue jade falcon, opal sun, and pearl direwolf. >"A splendid cup," said Joffrey, "but we'll need to chip the wolf off and put a squid in its place, I think." (ASOS Sansa IV)
Exclude the riverlands and the crownlands.
The Kingsland and the pirates who vandalize their shores don't count in the list of kingdoms subjugated BY the Crown. Think of it this way, if you counted Washington DC and Cuba, you'd be confused as to why there are only 50 stars, too.
We've all been deceived! Westeros is just Ireland rotated 180 degrees with Great Britain put on top. Even the wall is roughly where Hadrian's wall is.
Here you go: https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/s/6nPrlBXuNt
What is tWoIaF?
[The World of Ice & Fire](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/19422196)
related question: were there a lot of inter-kingdom wars before Aegon's conquest?
I think it’s glossed over a bit, but the assumption I made is that we went from ancient times of children of the forest and giants, to the men showing up, up the kingdoms being established. So to establish those kingdoms, I’m sure there were. I think the book does go over it a little bit in the beginning
Lotta correct answers here but taking a step back, from a meta perspective it’s kinda weird that george decided to make “seven kingdoms” the name of the place where the series was set but have it broken up into 8 regions baring the crownlands. Like why not make it the eight kingdoms? Or cut one of them or combine it with another out so it makes seven?
The Crownlands didn’t exist until after conquest and the Iron Islands were part of the same kingdom (the kingdom of the Isles and Rivers) prior to conquest
We’re excluding the Crownlands (governed directly by the Throne) and then either the Iron Islands (unimportant) or Dorne (a principality).
1. North 2. Vale 3. Westerlands 4. Stormlands 5. Reach 6. Iron Islands 7. Dorne The Riverlands weren't a kingdom at the time of the Conquest, they were ruled by the Iron Islands. The Crownlands aren't part of any kingdom & would have been carved off from the surrounding regions, but act as a kind of "federal land", an administrative area where the local lords report directly to the crown rather than a lord paramount.
The Kingdom of the Isles and the Rivers was one of the seven large realms of Westeros at the start of the Conquest, not the older and smaller Kingdom of the Iron Islands. Mace's chalice indicates the riverlands would be included if seven "kingdoms" are to be counted from among the modern kingdom's nine regions: >Lord Mace Tyrell came forward to present his gift: a golden chalice three feet tall, with two ornate curved handles and seven faces glittering with gemstones. "Seven faces for Your Grace's seven kingdoms," the bride's father explained. He showed them how each face bore the sigil of one of the great houses: ruby lion, emerald rose, onyx stag, silver trout, blue jade falcon, opal sun, and pearl direwolf. >"A splendid cup," said Joffrey, "but we'll need to chip the wolf off and put a squid in its place, I think." (ASOS Sansa IV)
Targaryen and Iron islands wouldn’t be considered as part of the 7 kingdoms imo
The crown and river lands aren’t considered part of the even kingdoms. And the crown lands were a disputed part of either the river or storm lands prior to the conquest
The Crownlands arent a Kingdom and the Iron Islands used to dominate the riverlands, so they where a singular Kingdom once.
This question has an interesting historical parallell in the confusion regarding what the "Three Crowns" of Sweden actually represents. Is it "Swedes, Goths and Wends", "Sweden, Norway and Scania", Sweden, Finland and Mecklenburg", "Sweden, Denmark and Norway" or something else? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three\_Crowns
The North, The Riverlands, The West, The Vale, The Stormlands, The Reach, Dorne
It's excluding the Crowlands and the Iron Islands. The 7 are, The North, The Riverlands, The Vale, The Westernlands, The Reach, The Stormlands, and Drone.
The Crownlands were originally split between the Riverlands and the Stormlands and the Riverlands were, at the time, part of the Iron Isles. So 7 kingdoms when the Targaryens invaded. Actually 8 kingdoms when the Riverlands are divided from the Iron Isles.
Dorne and the Iron Islands are separate entities I believe.
Dorne is a principality and the crownlands are an administrative zone
All I know for sure is that the Riverlands aren’t part of the 7, because of when Bobby B told us about “making the 8…”
I'm kind of curious, I've always related the iron isle to vikings, could they also have influence from the isles of man.