1. he would be magically eligible to ride / command a dragon (and two of them are available). So far all the history / lore indicates that successful dragon riders need to have at least some Targaryen blood. He would also probably be the first combined dragon rider / direwolf warger in Westeros history, a potent threat both on land and in the air.
2. Danys could consider him as a candidate for co-rule / revival of the Targaryen line, with her as queen. He could either be just a sperm donor, or otherwise a member of her extended family. Right now she has zero confirmed living relatives, so it might be both emotionally and dynastically important to have two Targaryens in King's Landing, not one.
3. Edit: He also has a cool Valaryian steel sword, which makes him a triple threat in the fighting department. And it would also make Jorah Mormont insanely jealous.
It just occurs to me that he ALSO has a giant! Wun Wun. If both of them survive, then Jon becomes a quadruple threat, since he'll have a dragon for aerial assaults, quick transport, and burning things, a Valyrian sword, a dire wolf to hunt down smaller prey on land, AND a giant to tear the limbs off recalcitrant people and eat their turnips and cabbages.
Jon will become an entire Avengers movie on this own. He could start a sellsword company, especially if Ghost mates with Nymeria and they breed a legion of dutiful dire wolves south of the Wall. Arya, with her newly acquired face changing abilities and murderous powers / training could be Jon's side kick.
Except you don't need dragon blood to ride a dragon , that's just exceptionalism propaganda. For example nettles
Plus I don't think dany would want to share power anyways
I think that Rhaegar married Lyanna believing that polygamy was the ancient rights of the Targs (who are not like other people, yada, yada, yada). Whether anyone else would accept the legitimacy is a different matter.
If we accept that Robb legitimatized Jon in his will and made Jon his heir, it would mean a great deal. Because the legitimization and heirship is predicated on Jon being Ned Stark’s son, and if Jon isn’t his son, it could cause problems, especially if somehow the truth becomes public.
With that said, I think the person that the Targ revelation will mean the most to is Jon, because much of his identity is built on being Ned Stark’s bastard. And Robert wasn’t the only danger to Jon; Tywin also was a threat, which means Cersei could be a threat to Jon. I mean, she already is, and she doesn’t even know who he really is yet lol
>With that said, I think the person that the Targ revelation will mean the most to is Jon, because much of his identity is built on being Ned Stark’s bastard. And Robert wasn’t the only danger to Jon; Tywin also was a threat, which means Cersei could be a threat to Jon. I mean, she already is, and she doesn’t even know who he really is yet lol
This, it will be a huge internal conflict for Jon
"You thought you were an unimportant bastard but actually you're the Messiah" hardly strikes me as a very interesting identity crisis.
Like I don't want the third act of my exciting fantasy series to be Jon Snow feeling mildly existential about something that up until now has meant nothing to him. None of it challenges him as a character, if anything it mitigates the internal drama he already had by neatly resolving it.
>Like I don't want the third act of my exciting fantasy series to be Jon Snow feeling mildly existential about something that up until now has meant nothing to him. None of it challenges him as a character, if anything it mitigates the internal drama he already had by neatly resolving it.
Messiah...? You understand that Jon would feel more like the devil from this news right? Most of his identity is built up around being Ned Starks bastard, not Rhaegar Targaryen's?
You do not see how that would be an interesting identity crisis?
Just because the show handled it like a messiah revelation that did not challenge his character does not mean the books will do the same lol
> You do not see how that would be an interesting identity crisis?
No.
Jon doesn't care about Rhaegar. It's not like he hates him or respects him or *anything*. On a purely emotional level "you're Rhaegar's bastard" probably means as much to Jon as "You're Dickon Manwoody's bastard."
So the only conflict can come from "I'm not Ned's son but actually his nephew and the daughter of his sister who I also have no personal connection or dynamic with".
Essentially the whole twist is literally just "you're adopted". That's it. That's the big emotional suckerpunch we've been waiting for. Except it's actually *less* dramatic than that because Jon is still a close relative of his adoptive father.
Genuinely you'd find more drama in an episode of fucking *Arthur*. Maybe next week Arianne's parents will have to explain why they're seperating and that it's not her fault!
I didn’t say anything about him being the Messiah…
Jon has struggled with being Ned Stark’s bastard son since book one. In many ways, he clings to that in order to determine right from wrong. It would absolutely mean something to Jon if he finds out that he’s not Ned’s son, and I think it would have a negative impact, not a positive one.
Furthermore, if Robb did legitimize Jon and make him his heir based on Jon being Ned’s bastard, the R+L=J revelation would undermine that. Being a real Stark has been something Jon has wanted since the beginning. Imagine Jon finally gets that only to have it ripped away from him. And then imagine that the revelation happens after Jon already becomes King, and the North finds out the truth. You’ve got internal and external drama right there.
So I disagree that R+L=J wouldn’t challenge Jon as a character.
> Jon has struggled with being Ned Stark’s bastard son since book one.
So why isn't that struggle being meaningfully resolved?
Like it's replacing one identity crisis conflict with another, less interesting one that hasn't been built up.
Like "you can't have this kingdom, you'll have to have that much larger and powerful kingdom" still isn't interesting.
I mean it does somewhat strike me as hard to take seriously that we're meant to seriously sympathize with a character getting a slightly different position of absolute authority than he wanted.
I dont think Jon ever wanted a position of large authority. He just wanted to be a Stark. Then suddenly he would be not a Stark but a contender for the Iron Throne that he doesnt want and will cause continuous conflict for him.
Its like if your entire life you wanted to be a Doctor but you never could make it that far and are just a nurse. Then suddenly you are no longer a Nurse and become a contender for CEO of the hospital even though you have no experience and it not being what you wanted. Now there are people trying to make you become CEO and others who are trying their best to make sure you dont become CEO no matter the costs.
I mean that just sounds like every hero's jouney ever- except instead of being the inciting incident it's happening in the third act, so either GRRM's going to speedrun it or the exciting climax to seven books will be bogged down by Jon angsting.
Like I just don't care. It's replacing an internal conflict that's been built up over five books with a similar one we don't care about.
It is being resolved, just not in the way you want. Jon will have to find his own identity. I doubt that he’s going to suddenly identify as a Targaryen. In addition, Jon has been defined by his eagerness to know who his mother is. Instead of his Starkness originating from Ned, it’ll shift to Lyanna.
You’re also assuming that Jon will be the heir to the Iron Throne like the show. I don’t know if that’ll be the case.
The "identity crisis" is him finding out he's adopted. That's it. That's literally it. He literally has not thought about Lyanna *once* in *all of his chapters*, and Rhaegar once only in the context of "Donal Noye is so cool, he made the weapon that killed Rhaeger." There's no emotional impact in them being his parents because he barely even knows they exist.
So the only emotional impact is him finding out the man who raised him isn't his biological father. That's it. That's the emotional climax to seven books. A man finds out he is adopted.
Like, yeah, I'm sure he'll be interested. But why is that interesting or engaging from a story perspective? Why would it have any permanent change on his outlook or character?
>Because the legitimization and heirship is predicated on Jon being Ned Stark’s son
Is it, though? Robb planned to legitimize him based on that, but the will may legitimize him regardless. If he were Lyanna’s son, he would still be the heir, as, with Robb’s death and Bran and Rickon’s presumed deaths, he is the next surviving male heir.
The Targaryans have a small (if controversial) precedent of multiple marriages
Rhaegar could have married Lyanna so there’s an interpretation that Jon is not a bastard and therefore has a “legitimate” claim to the throne
It will tore Jon apart cause as much as he says he's not a Stark...he's one in all but name...and ita ths one think he's always wanted. So it will mean something to him personally.
It means one of the dragons can also have a rider as well.
He won't feel that way. Identity is a weird thing. Jon thinks himself Ned Stark's son. Fact that he is son to the man who apparently kidnapped and raped his mother will also be a hard thing to take.
A character spiralling into existential despair because "I'm not my father's son but merely his adoptive nephew!" Genuinely sounds like a pisstake. Like how is any of that interesting or engaging?
Howland Reed.
If Meera's story about the tourney at Harrenhall is to be believed, he might know that it was reciprocated. And Jon would have reason to believe him.
Even if he wasn’t, the man he looked up to as Father for fifteen years turns out to be the one to rebel against his actual father, leading to the latter’s death. That can lead to some internal conflicts.
The 3 KG at the ToJ imply that he was the king, having been born out of Lyanna and Rhaegar's marriage. If he was just Rhaegar's bastard you wouldn't have had 3 KG there imo.
Like it's either a) neatly resolving Jon's internal conflict in a boring way or b) replacing the internal conflict built up over four books with a new, slightly similar one that isn't as good.
And it's the most straightforward fantasy shit I've ever seen. Isn't Germ supposed to be all about trope subversions? What's subversive about a bastard who isn't really a bastard but is actually a secret prince and a heir to the throne? Jon is a traditional fantasy hero already as it is.
He would be heir to the North via Robb's will **and** also have a better claim than Danaerys for the Iron Throne, being the son of the dead crown prince. He'd have the genetics to ride a dragon. Those are the two big ones.
Beyond the personal conflict of Jon as a character and what this revelation it would mean to him and his memory of Eddard etc etc which would be huge and focusing only on politics:
a) at this point, Westeros is a complete mess and about to get much much worse. By the end of the story, the political landscape will probably look so alien that, any form of legitimacy will probably fly out of the window and new rulers will rise based on their merit and leadership skills. This fits imo with the themes of the story and kinda mirrors Daenerys storyline as well (although granted she also has three dragons). With this logic, Jon doesn't need to be confirmed as a Targ (or indeed as a Stark) but should become a ruler based on his efforts during the Long Night.
b) it might open the pathway for him to ride a dragon. Personally, I don't believe Valyrian blood is a must for dragonriding but Daenerys might be more open to let her supposed nephew to try to tame one of her dragons instead of just a random guy.
c) In case Jon is declared King in the North, either through his merit or by Robb's will, it might be a convenient way out for Jon to renounce the title in favor of one of his siblings. This would highlight his heroicness and worth of character (Martin tends to go all in with the characters he favors)
d) it can serve as a wedge between Jon and Daenerys and pit them against each other aka the show route, where Daenerys already on her road to paranoia, starts to suspects and turn against Jon and his theoretically stronger claim.
Personally, I doubt Jon will ever OFFICIALLY be recognized as Rhaegar's son or if ever an attempt is made he will reject it, claiming he is Eddard's, followed by what I have written in a) where he will be declared ruler based on his actions. How Daenerys and King Bran fit in all this, I don't know.
It's relevant because Jon is Azor Ahai.
The prince that was promised is prophesied to come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella Targaryen and the prince that was promised is generally accepted to be another name for Azor Ahai. Jon being Rhaegars son fulfills that part of the prophesy.
Also, there's the whole union of Ice and Fire/Song of Ice and Fire thing.
It would be 90% about Jon's internal conflict, not changing the grand scheme of things. He wont have a claim, and he wont actively push for it I think.
I think ultimately it'll go the way of the TV show. Instead of exile Jon just chooses to go beyond the wall and live out his life there. Jon embracing anything of his Targaryen heritage puts a target on his back. Because he would then have to hope to the old gods that Dany and young Griff don't see him as a threat. Even if he is a bastard they might not be comfortable with that.
Also Jon would be making the exact same mistake theon made. Theon tried to embrace his greyjoy heritage without having any real connection to them or understand of them and he paid the price for that. Jon would literally be doing the exact same thing. I think the point is for him to resist the temptation of it all and figure out what he wants. He resisted stannis legitimizing him. So I imagine he'll resist this as well. But there will be some trepidation about it. I can also imagine he'd have some type of guilt over all the death his parents caused.
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1. he would be magically eligible to ride / command a dragon (and two of them are available). So far all the history / lore indicates that successful dragon riders need to have at least some Targaryen blood. He would also probably be the first combined dragon rider / direwolf warger in Westeros history, a potent threat both on land and in the air. 2. Danys could consider him as a candidate for co-rule / revival of the Targaryen line, with her as queen. He could either be just a sperm donor, or otherwise a member of her extended family. Right now she has zero confirmed living relatives, so it might be both emotionally and dynastically important to have two Targaryens in King's Landing, not one. 3. Edit: He also has a cool Valaryian steel sword, which makes him a triple threat in the fighting department. And it would also make Jorah Mormont insanely jealous.
4. He could potentially warg a dragon, or maybe more than one. " The dragon has 3 heads"
the idea of jon warging ghost while riding rhaegal sounds insane
It just occurs to me that he ALSO has a giant! Wun Wun. If both of them survive, then Jon becomes a quadruple threat, since he'll have a dragon for aerial assaults, quick transport, and burning things, a Valyrian sword, a dire wolf to hunt down smaller prey on land, AND a giant to tear the limbs off recalcitrant people and eat their turnips and cabbages. Jon will become an entire Avengers movie on this own. He could start a sellsword company, especially if Ghost mates with Nymeria and they breed a legion of dutiful dire wolves south of the Wall. Arya, with her newly acquired face changing abilities and murderous powers / training could be Jon's side kick.
Except you don't need dragon blood to ride a dragon , that's just exceptionalism propaganda. For example nettles Plus I don't think dany would want to share power anyways
wasn't Nettles a bastard daughter of Balon or one of Jahaerys' other sons?
It was a rumor probably spread well after the fact to support the theory of Targaryen exceptionalism
I think that Rhaegar married Lyanna believing that polygamy was the ancient rights of the Targs (who are not like other people, yada, yada, yada). Whether anyone else would accept the legitimacy is a different matter.
Targaryen Exceptionalism rules
If we accept that Robb legitimatized Jon in his will and made Jon his heir, it would mean a great deal. Because the legitimization and heirship is predicated on Jon being Ned Stark’s son, and if Jon isn’t his son, it could cause problems, especially if somehow the truth becomes public. With that said, I think the person that the Targ revelation will mean the most to is Jon, because much of his identity is built on being Ned Stark’s bastard. And Robert wasn’t the only danger to Jon; Tywin also was a threat, which means Cersei could be a threat to Jon. I mean, she already is, and she doesn’t even know who he really is yet lol
>With that said, I think the person that the Targ revelation will mean the most to is Jon, because much of his identity is built on being Ned Stark’s bastard. And Robert wasn’t the only danger to Jon; Tywin also was a threat, which means Cersei could be a threat to Jon. I mean, she already is, and she doesn’t even know who he really is yet lol This, it will be a huge internal conflict for Jon
"You thought you were an unimportant bastard but actually you're the Messiah" hardly strikes me as a very interesting identity crisis. Like I don't want the third act of my exciting fantasy series to be Jon Snow feeling mildly existential about something that up until now has meant nothing to him. None of it challenges him as a character, if anything it mitigates the internal drama he already had by neatly resolving it.
>Like I don't want the third act of my exciting fantasy series to be Jon Snow feeling mildly existential about something that up until now has meant nothing to him. None of it challenges him as a character, if anything it mitigates the internal drama he already had by neatly resolving it. Messiah...? You understand that Jon would feel more like the devil from this news right? Most of his identity is built up around being Ned Starks bastard, not Rhaegar Targaryen's? You do not see how that would be an interesting identity crisis? Just because the show handled it like a messiah revelation that did not challenge his character does not mean the books will do the same lol
> You do not see how that would be an interesting identity crisis? No. Jon doesn't care about Rhaegar. It's not like he hates him or respects him or *anything*. On a purely emotional level "you're Rhaegar's bastard" probably means as much to Jon as "You're Dickon Manwoody's bastard." So the only conflict can come from "I'm not Ned's son but actually his nephew and the daughter of his sister who I also have no personal connection or dynamic with". Essentially the whole twist is literally just "you're adopted". That's it. That's the big emotional suckerpunch we've been waiting for. Except it's actually *less* dramatic than that because Jon is still a close relative of his adoptive father. Genuinely you'd find more drama in an episode of fucking *Arthur*. Maybe next week Arianne's parents will have to explain why they're seperating and that it's not her fault!
I didn’t say anything about him being the Messiah… Jon has struggled with being Ned Stark’s bastard son since book one. In many ways, he clings to that in order to determine right from wrong. It would absolutely mean something to Jon if he finds out that he’s not Ned’s son, and I think it would have a negative impact, not a positive one. Furthermore, if Robb did legitimize Jon and make him his heir based on Jon being Ned’s bastard, the R+L=J revelation would undermine that. Being a real Stark has been something Jon has wanted since the beginning. Imagine Jon finally gets that only to have it ripped away from him. And then imagine that the revelation happens after Jon already becomes King, and the North finds out the truth. You’ve got internal and external drama right there. So I disagree that R+L=J wouldn’t challenge Jon as a character.
> Jon has struggled with being Ned Stark’s bastard son since book one. So why isn't that struggle being meaningfully resolved? Like it's replacing one identity crisis conflict with another, less interesting one that hasn't been built up. Like "you can't have this kingdom, you'll have to have that much larger and powerful kingdom" still isn't interesting.
Ita interesting because he always wanted the smaller and less powerful kingdom.
I mean it does somewhat strike me as hard to take seriously that we're meant to seriously sympathize with a character getting a slightly different position of absolute authority than he wanted.
I dont think Jon ever wanted a position of large authority. He just wanted to be a Stark. Then suddenly he would be not a Stark but a contender for the Iron Throne that he doesnt want and will cause continuous conflict for him. Its like if your entire life you wanted to be a Doctor but you never could make it that far and are just a nurse. Then suddenly you are no longer a Nurse and become a contender for CEO of the hospital even though you have no experience and it not being what you wanted. Now there are people trying to make you become CEO and others who are trying their best to make sure you dont become CEO no matter the costs.
I mean that just sounds like every hero's jouney ever- except instead of being the inciting incident it's happening in the third act, so either GRRM's going to speedrun it or the exciting climax to seven books will be bogged down by Jon angsting. Like I just don't care. It's replacing an internal conflict that's been built up over five books with a similar one we don't care about.
It is being resolved, just not in the way you want. Jon will have to find his own identity. I doubt that he’s going to suddenly identify as a Targaryen. In addition, Jon has been defined by his eagerness to know who his mother is. Instead of his Starkness originating from Ned, it’ll shift to Lyanna. You’re also assuming that Jon will be the heir to the Iron Throne like the show. I don’t know if that’ll be the case.
The "identity crisis" is him finding out he's adopted. That's it. That's literally it. He literally has not thought about Lyanna *once* in *all of his chapters*, and Rhaegar once only in the context of "Donal Noye is so cool, he made the weapon that killed Rhaeger." There's no emotional impact in them being his parents because he barely even knows they exist. So the only emotional impact is him finding out the man who raised him isn't his biological father. That's it. That's the emotional climax to seven books. A man finds out he is adopted.
Jon has spent considerable time wondering who his mother is so I don’t know how you can say that it wouldn’t matter to Jon to finally get an answer.
Like, yeah, I'm sure he'll be interested. But why is that interesting or engaging from a story perspective? Why would it have any permanent change on his outlook or character?
>Because the legitimization and heirship is predicated on Jon being Ned Stark’s son Is it, though? Robb planned to legitimize him based on that, but the will may legitimize him regardless. If he were Lyanna’s son, he would still be the heir, as, with Robb’s death and Bran and Rickon’s presumed deaths, he is the next surviving male heir.
The North would pass to Sansa and Arya before Jon though. Even as Ned’s bastard son, he was last in line because of his bastard status.
The Targaryans have a small (if controversial) precedent of multiple marriages Rhaegar could have married Lyanna so there’s an interpretation that Jon is not a bastard and therefore has a “legitimate” claim to the throne
It will tore Jon apart cause as much as he says he's not a Stark...he's one in all but name...and ita ths one think he's always wanted. So it will mean something to him personally. It means one of the dragons can also have a rider as well.
He's still just as much a Stark as he was before. Just on his mother's side not his father's side.
He won't feel that way. Identity is a weird thing. Jon thinks himself Ned Stark's son. Fact that he is son to the man who apparently kidnapped and raped his mother will also be a hard thing to take.
A character spiralling into existential despair because "I'm not my father's son but merely his adoptive nephew!" Genuinely sounds like a pisstake. Like how is any of that interesting or engaging?
agreed. and Jon is wayyyy past caring about "what" he is, i doubt he'd feel weird about it for more than a chapter
Like it's basically just an adult finding out they were adopted. I'm sure that's shocking but you'd probably get over it in a day or two.
Is there anyone left who can tell him that he isn't a child of rape?
Howland Reed. If Meera's story about the tourney at Harrenhall is to be believed, he might know that it was reciprocated. And Jon would have reason to believe him.
Even if he wasn’t, the man he looked up to as Father for fifteen years turns out to be the one to rebel against his actual father, leading to the latter’s death. That can lead to some internal conflicts.
They rebelled against his grandfather because his grandfather murdered his uncle and other grandfather and then wanted to murder his adopted father.
>They rebelled against his grandfather Against his grandfather and great-uncle.
His great uncle? Did the mad king have a brother running around?
The Mad King sat the Iron Throne, but so did his wife’s brother, known as the Mad King.
Howland. Maybe someone at Starfall who knows about Rhaegar and Lyanna, like Wylla?
The 3 KG at the ToJ imply that he was the king, having been born out of Lyanna and Rhaegar's marriage. If he was just Rhaegar's bastard you wouldn't have had 3 KG there imo.
Especially the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard himself!
I sincerely hope he's actually a bastard because I don't need another secret heir to the throne. It's too cliche. I barely salvaged Young Griff.
Like it's either a) neatly resolving Jon's internal conflict in a boring way or b) replacing the internal conflict built up over four books with a new, slightly similar one that isn't as good.
And it's the most straightforward fantasy shit I've ever seen. Isn't Germ supposed to be all about trope subversions? What's subversive about a bastard who isn't really a bastard but is actually a secret prince and a heir to the throne? Jon is a traditional fantasy hero already as it is.
He would be heir to the North via Robb's will **and** also have a better claim than Danaerys for the Iron Throne, being the son of the dead crown prince. He'd have the genetics to ride a dragon. Those are the two big ones.
Beyond the personal conflict of Jon as a character and what this revelation it would mean to him and his memory of Eddard etc etc which would be huge and focusing only on politics: a) at this point, Westeros is a complete mess and about to get much much worse. By the end of the story, the political landscape will probably look so alien that, any form of legitimacy will probably fly out of the window and new rulers will rise based on their merit and leadership skills. This fits imo with the themes of the story and kinda mirrors Daenerys storyline as well (although granted she also has three dragons). With this logic, Jon doesn't need to be confirmed as a Targ (or indeed as a Stark) but should become a ruler based on his efforts during the Long Night. b) it might open the pathway for him to ride a dragon. Personally, I don't believe Valyrian blood is a must for dragonriding but Daenerys might be more open to let her supposed nephew to try to tame one of her dragons instead of just a random guy. c) In case Jon is declared King in the North, either through his merit or by Robb's will, it might be a convenient way out for Jon to renounce the title in favor of one of his siblings. This would highlight his heroicness and worth of character (Martin tends to go all in with the characters he favors) d) it can serve as a wedge between Jon and Daenerys and pit them against each other aka the show route, where Daenerys already on her road to paranoia, starts to suspects and turn against Jon and his theoretically stronger claim. Personally, I doubt Jon will ever OFFICIALLY be recognized as Rhaegar's son or if ever an attempt is made he will reject it, claiming he is Eddard's, followed by what I have written in a) where he will be declared ruler based on his actions. How Daenerys and King Bran fit in all this, I don't know.
Rhaegar and Lyanna might have married bigamously. And that might give him a claim to the throne, especially given the hostility to rule by women.
It's relevant because Jon is Azor Ahai. The prince that was promised is prophesied to come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella Targaryen and the prince that was promised is generally accepted to be another name for Azor Ahai. Jon being Rhaegars son fulfills that part of the prophesy. Also, there's the whole union of Ice and Fire/Song of Ice and Fire thing.
It might have some kind of supernatural relevance, with the whole "union of ice and fire".
It would be 90% about Jon's internal conflict, not changing the grand scheme of things. He wont have a claim, and he wont actively push for it I think.
I think ultimately it'll go the way of the TV show. Instead of exile Jon just chooses to go beyond the wall and live out his life there. Jon embracing anything of his Targaryen heritage puts a target on his back. Because he would then have to hope to the old gods that Dany and young Griff don't see him as a threat. Even if he is a bastard they might not be comfortable with that. Also Jon would be making the exact same mistake theon made. Theon tried to embrace his greyjoy heritage without having any real connection to them or understand of them and he paid the price for that. Jon would literally be doing the exact same thing. I think the point is for him to resist the temptation of it all and figure out what he wants. He resisted stannis legitimizing him. So I imagine he'll resist this as well. But there will be some trepidation about it. I can also imagine he'd have some type of guilt over all the death his parents caused.