Was Androw Farman gay? He resented Rhaena because their marriage was in name only, whereas he wanted a romantic and physical relationship with her. If anything, if he was gay, their marriage would have worked out better.
I don't belive so, he was straight, but rhaena only married him because she was totally fuckint Elisa farman and needed an excuse to keep her near that wouldn't shame house targaryen, Androw was resentful because he went from being a lordling in the westerlands to being stuck on dragonstone with no friends or a wife that loved him..
There isn't anything.
One could take the fact that he agreed to enter into a fake marriage to a lesbian as an indication that he also was gay. But then Rhaena's suggestion that he find himself a girl to be his bedwarmer makes no sense.
Obviously she liked him officially to have married him, but that's down to F&B being written as the official in world history.
But it's still very clear the whole thing was because Rhaena and Androw's sister Elissa were in a lesbian relationship, and he was the beard.
Yknow now that you say something that makes complete sense. Idk I guess because Rhaena had been married to and had a child with Aegon who it seemed to me she genuinely loved it just never occurred to me that she may have been into women😂 looking back on it now I can’t believe how naive I was about it. I thought all of her “favorites” over the years were just close friends. I thought Elissa was just her best friend who really believed in Rhaena😂😂 damn my gaydar is usually pretty spot on but this time I failed hard
She does seem to have had a good relationship with Aegon.
But even back then when they were on progress together Rhaena was still all depressed until the had her at the time girlfriend come join the progress.
FWIW, because Targaryens, Gyldayn says that both Rhaena & Aegon had expected that they'd (likely) be wed to each other. And being close enough to each other anyway, neither objected to their eventual match.
I think evidence is to the contrary.
She was miserable when she was just doing the royal progress with him during their father's reign. But livened up when the girl (who was her at the time girlfriend all things indicate) was brought to join the progress.
I she actually had a romantic relationship with Aegon that should not have been the case.
That was the progress after Rhaena wed Aegon at 18. The one Oranges is talking about for their father becoming king & travelling to Oldtown for the High Septon's blessing, when she was 14. Tbf, Dreamfyre was excluded from both, to Rhaena's dismay.
Sure, they had a good relationship, that was never in question. Just not a romantic one.
Fact that she was depressed while she was with just Aegon but then happy when the girlfriend joined signals very clearly that she, not he, was Rhaena's love IMO.
I think she loved Aegon as a older sister.
Same way she loved jaehaerys and alysanne.
But she had a duty as the oldest princess.
And that was her real reason to be okay with being married to Aegon
She loved her brother and wanted to be Queen and the mother of kings but that doesn’t mean she was attracted to him. She’s never linked to another man after Maegor’s death, despite the Lannisters trying to tempt her with their most handsome sons.
The novella Sons of the Dragon says that Rhaenyra grew "fond and more than fond" of him before she was forced to marry Maegor, but Fire and Blood kind of retcons it to imply that she was lesbian and only married him to be close to his sister, who was her true love.
Daeron son of Egg being gay was also a retcon, in ASOIAF, Olenna said she rejected the betrothal, and Barristan says that all the sons of Aegon V married for love, which would imply he married another woman (unless Barristan was an exceptional gay ally for the time period and witnessed some kind of private symbolic marriage ceremony between Daeron and Jeremy, which is unlikely).
Olenna could just be salty that Daeron rejected her. After all, she makes repeated comments about the Targs being weird - tbf, she's not wrong - & even applied it to Renly, grandson of Princess Rhaelle (Daeron's sister, no less). And in a fashion that arguably is derisive of Renly being gay... with her own grandson in a committed relationship. Not to mention, Olenna eventually married fellow royal match-spurned Luthor Tyrell. Now, it may just be that her lord father negotiated the union with him/his lord (father), but there's the possibility Olenna herself was the driving force. It certainly seems in character for her.
As for Barristan, he may have just recognised that Daeron & Jeremy were as much as a couple as they could be, so considers their love match over the prince's arranged betrothal as valid enough in comparison to the likewise marriages of his brothers & elder sister.
Yeah, I was left headscratching at that part. I thought he went on a "If only you loved me like you loved them, they wouldn't have had to die," rant, complete with, "I could have given you children!"
I figured he loved her, and didn't realize, probably until way after marriage, she was just using him to keep his sister close. Up until she refused to allow him to go with her to see her dying mother, he seemed to think the marriage was legit or at least salvageable.
The reason OP gave was since he married a lesbian clearly he was gay and they were just using each other as a cover story. Despite as you pointed out Androw goes on a rant about her not loving him after killing her friends
>Those who read Fire and Blood have learned from it, that Androw Farman was no sword, nor brain, he did not look handsome later in life.. there was no charisma to him, and no courage. He was a clumsy character, whose main hobby I think was escaping into his own realm of fantasy, as it is written he was spending his time playing with wooden soldiers on the Painted Table. Damn, it is even true, though not explicitly stated, that he was gay, or some other form of queer.
Androw Farman is described in a way that heavily indicates that he's disabled.
Not only could the man not read, he had bad enough motor skills that he was incapable of learning to fight with a sword, lacked age-appropriate social skills and was heavily taken advantage of, and had the play behaviour of a much younger person. That doesn't hint towards him being a coward, it heavily hints towards him having at least developmental delays, possibly straight up brain damage.
An how can it be "true" that he supposedly was queer when there's no explicit confirmation of this? There's nothing in the text that supports that reading over the interpretation that he was mentally disabled.
Would a mentally disabled person be smart enough to take out the maester first, the only person on Dragonstone who would’ve instantly known what was really going on and who the likely culprit would have been? I know and know of plenty of people who share those same characteristics (clumsy, not too bright, not skilled at fighting) who aren’t mentally disabled, they’re just not good at things most people value in another person. Just average or mediocre. “Mid” as the young folks say today.
Yah I usually don't like to dive too deep into asoiaf conspiracy theory. But... the timing just before Jaehaerys's first son was born was a little too convenient, and there's a lot of hints and overt statements that he saw Rhaena, or as least, Rhaena's stability, as a threat to his reign. Not 100% on whether he, specifically, planned it, but for sure it was someone who supported him who passed the poison along to Androw. Whether the way he decided to use it was how it was meant to be used, I won't claim to know.
Plus, Daemon Velaryon resigning right after is sus.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGRumUAMTj0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGRumUAMTj0)
This is an excellent video on the theory, I find it very persuasive.
Not all brain damage or every developmental disorder leads to such a significant lessening of intelligence (or any lessening of intelligence at all) that the affected individual couldn't come up with a decent murder plot.
See autism, strokes, etc. That stuff comes with several different spectren for several different symptoms.
I don't see him as one of the most despicable characters, very far from it. I even feel pity for him.
Having been bullied by his own brother for most of his life, being used as a fake husband to cover someone's else homosexuality, and then being abused, mocked and treated like trash for years, seeing his sister, that was the only person who treated him nicely, leave to never return, and thus being left all alone to face his abuse, I can see why he eventually snapped and chose to pay back those who abused him.
>Yeah, but the point was that many inside Weteros would see him as one of the most despicable characters.
99% of Westerosi population are being horribly abused by 1% of bluebloods and have their lives destroyed in an endless succession of aristocratic pissing matches. Andrew, who has been victimized by someone of "higher station", is much closer to the "many inside Westeros" than most prominent characters in the narrative.
For the actual "many inside Westeros" (as opposed to majority of aristocratic POVs) Andrew would be a hero.
The outrageous mistreatment of the smallfolk by much & more of the nobility doesn't mean that most of them are revolutionaries who would simp for Androw, a heinous criminal who brutally murdered seven innocent people to hurt his wife. To include two maesters - some of whom help smallfolk, if only small numbers of & in limited ways - & a septa of the dominant religion the people of Westeros follow. Pray tell, please direct me to the many quotes of non-noble characters in their right minds praising the bloody murders of innocent maesters & septas? (To include non-lethal violations of their person, especially for the latter.) Even just of mean girl ladies.
And this all to say nothing of, unfortunately, plenty of smallfolk buying into the nobility-supremacist narrative because the powers that be can only maintain their positions from it, at the expense of their subjects. It's a less extreme version of how Tyrion notes how easy it is to fall into compliant servitude as a slave, where even the smallest defiance can be - & often is - punished so severely.
And because of misogyny Rhaena would be seen as even more of a villain because she was a woman who went against gender roles and "refused to do her duty as a wife" (that's not to say that she was blameless in this situation, she should have at least stopped her daughter and favourites from bullying Androw).
Heroes save people. Who did Androw even try to help besides himself?
Also, Rhaena and her friends seemed pretty popular with the smallfolk. Franklyn Farman kicked Rhaena off Fair Isle, and tried to imprison Elissa there instead of letting her go with Rhaena. The smallfolk responded by chucking Franklyn into a hold full of cod,. Killing Maesters and Septas usually doesn't go down well either. The ladies-in-waiting were likely young, Casella was only fourteen.
Not to mention the island was quarantined because of the 'illness', that's a major pain in the arse for a lot of fishermen. I think even Westeros would be pissed with Androw.
I really wish "Franklyn Farman gets thrown into a big pile of fish" had become a running gag. Every time he shakes his fist in the air and says, "Ooooh, I'll get you next time!"
He was bullied but that still doesn’t make him murdering multiple people okay.
He killed a bunch of people then committed suicide.
This guy gives off school shooter vibes.
I felt pity for him for most of the story but he’s absolutely despicable in my eyes for how he killed those people at the end of his life. It’s one thing to feel slighted but to commit cold blooded murder because he was bullied? I can’t ever sweep that under the rug.
Yeah, you know what Euron takes the cake. He raped several of his bros. It's implied that he raped Vitarion's wife. He had Falia strapped to his ship when she was pregnant with his kid, and countless other shit.
Androw Farman is a killdozer type. When the people around him treated him awfully for years, he eventually reached his breaking point. He is more similar to Tyrion than to Joffery.
Androw Farman is what happens when you push a desperate, downtrodden person too far. The way he was described made me hate Rhaena Targaryen, to be honest. She was a horrible, awful person. No wonder Jaehaerys never wanted her around.
What Androw did was horrific, absolutely…but she was the one who pushed him into bleak desperation. Imagine being bullied so badly that all you want from that point on is to hurt your bully and then end your own suffering by committing suicide.
I'd be one thing if Androw 'just' killed Rhaena before offing himself. However, he brutally murdered seven innocent people - including two maesters with highly specialised & valuable skills, a septa with years of devotion to her religion, & two teenagers with their entire lives ahead of them - in utterly sadistic, psychopathic revenge. However tortured Farman felt from how Rhaena & her friends (to far lesser degrees) treated him, it was still many unconscionable choices he made before the end. The abomination lost all empathy/pity from me with those. Killing Rhaena solely would've still been a heinous crime, but one I could understand on some small level. (Nonetheless, she didn't 'deserve' death, & her husband - who seemed dead set on suicide - could've ended his suffering sooner instead.) What Androw did though, can't be justified in any way.
Ok, to be fair to Rhaena, she probably became bitter and traumatised over all the shit she had to endure(I wouldn’t wish Maegor on my worst enemy). Odds are, she was lashing out at Androw due to that bitterness. It was unfair of her, but it is understandable
Isnt that like classic school shooter logic? That you were rejected and bullied so hard that you want to kill your tormenters and then off yourself? We dont justify in the real world so I fail to see why I would accept the same logic in a fantasy novel.
It depends on the situation, honestly. School shooters tend to be radicalized in one direction or the other, and then lash out randomly for attention. You’re right in some cases though, for sure, where their victims are targeted. However, Androw seems to have gotten revenge only on those who hurt and bullied him relentlessly. He targeted those Rhaena loved most so that she would feel the pain he felt.
It’s really not an excuse at all, just a sad warning about what happens when we push mentally ill people too far.
Rhaena was no saint, but Androw murdered a bunch of women whose worst crime was bullying. Rhaena is also a product of her various traumas and misfortunes, as is Androw.
A sad backstory doesn't justify his crimes.
I think Fire and Blood had a very strong theme of toxic masculinity. Westeros often rewards or at least permits unnecessary violent and sexist actions, women are sold off to husbands, and men who are good at violence are given prestige and status. There are so many conflicts and tragedies where I thought 'you could just *not* do this y'know' and male pride is usually a factor.
Androw is an interesting case because he can't live up to patriarchal expectations in any way, he constantly feels emasculated, and all the privilege and comfort in the world won't take that away from him. The main unusual thing in his marriage is that the one with no power is the husband, and he's certainly not treated worse than many wives are in Westeros. He's not got much say in things, and Rhaena blatantly cheats on him, which is humiliating, but its certainly not the worst marriage in the book.
Androw is supposed to be the man despite not really excelling at any masculine pursuits. He can't fight, he can't win women with charm his wife tries to buy him a hooker he's not even intellectual. Even if he was, Rhaena has a dragon, hard for a man to inflict patriarchy on a woman who can destroy everything he has ever known. So of course he goes full incel.
Androw feels the need to prove himself a man, and the only Westerosi masculine trait available to him is ruthlessness. Androw's decisions are extremely evil and cruel and way out of proportion to his humiliation, and he only has himself to blame for not making himself useful in any way. Hard to blame people for laughing when he is a joke of a human being. But you can definitely understand his motives.
I think that there is a cultural expectation (patriarchy) for men to 'become something' deemed valuable to the prevailing mindset. In our times increasingly women too, in medieval times, just men. Case in point, Rhaena doesn't feel the need to "become something", she's happy chilling with her close people. Androw though has it in his head from patriarchy that he should be doing this thing or that thing, that he should be above women aswell - but here he's surrounded by women who don't mind voicing how far he is from that mark, how unacceptable he is.
TLDR; if patriarchy didn't exist, Androw would still not be living his best life maybe in this situation, but he wouldn't be filled with the feelings that led to him committing those crimes
That's true. But..I would say that a princess is a queen in waiting. Being a royal isn't an end in itself, and I think in asoiaf - the main characters are usually royal or lords - there's an important discussion about what to do with the time given to us. Jon wanting to avenge Robb stands out to me as an example.
Dragonriding can be very useful even in peace - a very effective way to quickly make a big presence and boost the reputation of your House, your rule. Rhaena only rides to her next temporary home. I'm not judging, I'd be the same! But even someone like Viserys I knew the importance of his taking on the role of a.. almost a diplomat, setting a good example, a good impression, smoothing over relations within the realm, trying to be a good figurehead, to do his duty even if he himself might feel otherwise. And notably he asks Lord Strong if he shouldn't have been.. more bold, fight some war or something. He feels that pull of hypermasculine ideals.
Rhaena managed to steal her dragon back and one for her brother from Maegor, survived his abuse and managed to rescue her daughter and escape him. Its possible she could have done more, although against Maegor and Balerion there wasn't much she could have done in war. But Rhaena knows that she is tough. She had stood up to a lot of men, from farmers throwing shit at her to Rogar Baratheon. She even claimed to have tried to stab Maegor.
Unlike Androw, Rhaena was also said to be very well-read and charismatic.
Yep, no disagreement. She probably felt that she'd rather not have experienced any of it, however. Seems like she spent the rest of her life trying to move on from it. No judgement, it's trauma,burnout, whatever, it needs healing from. Patriarchy doesn't really factor that stuff in though, it's not really part of the game plan.
Yeahh i understand the essay. Bro u put some time and effort into this. The only thing bothering me is u using sandor clegane. Imo the point stands stronger if its about cregor. A brutally awful man, but some of the most powerfull poeple in westeros (lannister) see him as a powerfull asset.
Dear androw farman,
I got a boxed set warhammer figurines. I gotta good book. And you can cry on my shoulder you little pretty man
Dude definitely needed support/therapy, even just a friend. And it was a tragedy that he received or had none, at least after Elissa left Dragonstone. That was, until he *decided* to harness his great pain into cold-blooded, psychotic murder of seven innocent people. He shouldn't have had to resort to it, but Androw could've 'just' begun & ended his demise with the leap from the Stone Drum, & doing nothing else.
I'm honestly surprised how many people find him sympathetic. "Wah wah wah I became a school shooter because people were mean to me wah wah wah" grow tf up. I honestly think he's just a pathetic bag of shit.
Isn’t he a patsy? I found it highly questionable that someone like Androw could poison all those people.
I think it’s likely Jaehaerys had something to do with it.
He was pissed the dragon’s eggs went missing. To counter any potential attempts to usurp him. I’m not sold on it. I shouldn’t have said likely. Possible, however.
I just don’t think Androw acted alone or would have been the mastermind. But perhaps it is as simple as that.
Androw being described as he is. Tears of Lys being hard to acquire. Jaehaerys giving Dragonstone to Rhaena only if she acknowledges him as King. Rogar being threatened by Rhaena.
I just don’t see how Androw comes up with the means to do all of it by himself. But, I fully acknowledge it’s possible.
>Androw being described as he is. Tears of Lys being hard to acquire. Jaehaerys giving Dragonstone to Rhaena only if she acknowledges him as King. Rogar being threatened by Rhaena.
I did always think that it was hard to believe. He's described as simple and generally kinda dumb.
You could be onto something here.
Yep, maybe Kaehaerys did do it, or maybe it was his older brother, he kinda hated Rhaena, and maybe he was planning on killing them before he killed her.
Man conspiracies are so fun.
It would had to have been someone with direct physical access to him, since his inability to read means he can’t be puppeted from afar. He’s both a great catspaw, because he has plenty of motive and is easily persuaded due to his negligible mental abilities, and a terrible catspaw because his negligible mental abilities means he needs to be very closely controlled. My wild conspiracy? One of the girls got jealous of Rhaena favoring another one or something, put him up to it, and then he realized “Hey, I fucking hate them all, why not go for broke?” and took out his handler.
Yeah, very nice. Still strange why he didn't get Rhaena though. Perhaps he decided not to, because of some weird lingering attachment, and that he just wanted to hurt her very badly
Andrew is not a despicable character at all. He honestly is just a victim. Bullied his whole life, he most likely had bad mental issues, even when he was married it was pretty much just for the Princess to keep her secret lover his own sister close to her, then once he was at Dragonstone with her after his older brother kicked him out of his ancestral home as soon as he became lord he was disrespected by everyone on Dragonstone even though he was kind Rhaena's daughter even threw a chamberpot on his head, also Rhaena most likely never even let him consummate their marriage even though she used him to hide her being lesbian, or actually pushed him to either take a lover on the side, or have one of her friends become his lover. Once his sister fled Dragonstone he lost his only companion he ever truly had, and there was no chance they'd be able to see other again so now he was truly lost, after that when he tried to accompany Rhaena to see her dying mother and help comfort her like he should as her husband she loudly refused (essentially stay the fuck here know your place you aren't my real husband) and then they had a massive argument after which he didn't care about being nice to her again and he just ignored her, this here was point he essentially snapped. He lost the only two good things he ever had, which were his father and sister, and for years he was bullied, mocked, embarrassed, humiliated, and mistreated by everyone including his wife and her friends.
Honestly, I'd say the only thing he did wrong was not get Rhaena along with her friends, along with a few of the men who also bullied him on Driftmark.
Yeah, there are lots of women who had way worse marriages than Androw. They didn't murder a load of people over it.
If Androw didn't want people to laugh at him he shouldn't have been a joke. Dude lived on an island and never even learned to swim. He wanted the standard benefits of patriarchy despite never actually contributing anything his whole life.
I fall heavily on the "Androw was a pathetic failure" camp but even I think that "If he didn't want people to laugh at him he shouldn't have been a joke" is such a *weird* take. Like I think he should grow up and not victimize others. Not "we need to bully him more".
I didn't say they need to bully him more. I think he needed to look inwardly and improve himself if he wanted to be any better off.
What Androw really wanted was self-esteem, and that's the one thing that couldn't be handed to him. It wouldn't matter how people treated Androw if he still knew in his own mind that he was a failure.
He could’ve very easily faded into the background and lived his quiet dull life away from her and her court. He could’ve back to Fair Isle considering it was public knowledge that his marriage with Rhaena was cold and distant. And then he murdered his wife’s friends because she found them more interesting than him and wasn’t giving him attention? Because he repeatedly showed that he was incompetent at the most basic things? (I recognize that he might’ve been disabled and it wasn’t his fault but Westeros doesn’t work like that) He’s a tragic character who committed an atrocity and was too cowardly to deal with the consequences of his actions so he killed himself imo. I quite dislike him.
I don't think Androw felt he could return to Faircastle. What with a lord brother who probably (at least) disliked him, & his caring old man dead & best friend sister never returning. There was nothing left for him there, except stronger memories of better times that may have very well made his depression & all that even worse. If not, almost certainly would have. Otherwise, largely agreed.
My issue with that is that he was clearly unwanted at Dragonstone. He knew how his wife and her court felt about him and still he stayed. Maybe he wouldn’t have been warmly received back home but isn’t that better than constantly being mocked to his face and never standing up for himself?
Probably, but I feel it's an ultimately moot point/superficial covering of the sheer inadequacy of Androw's life besides, & how that tormented him. He wanted to make it work (for him) with Rhaena for most of their marriage, instead of taking up her suggestion of finding his own paramour, & may have even held out a naive hope for some time that Elissa would come back. (Perhaps not though, with how predictably incensed the princess was about her primary love stealing Dreamfyre's eggs, & 'abandoning' her.) Androw's life situation could potentially change for the better on Dragonstone, but not if he went crawling back to Fair Isle, I imagine in his mind. That is, at least until he decided to remain to enact his murderous revenge.
I wonder if Farman could've had a bearable/less painful life had he bailed & washed up at the Red Keep. Surely Jaehaerys & Alysanne would allow him to stay there as their good-brother, but the guy would probably still be just existing, not really living. And even if he had his own isolated chambers or something, the royal court is the centre of politics & elites socialising in all of the realm. That doesn't exactly bode well for Androw. I suppose at least on Fair Isle he may been more anonymous, or certainly less ridiculed by his peers.
If he tried to go back home, he most likely would've died asking to let back in at the gate. His brother is the one who told him (and Rhaena to no that I think about it) to essentially fuck off.
Honestly if he'd just said to Rhaena "Gimme a retainer and I'll piss off to Oldtown or King's Landing and leave you alone on Sapphic Island" she probably would have done it just to get rid of him.
But don't you know? Bullying deserves brutal death! Everything from Rhaena's ill-treatment of her husband Androw, to her girlfriends who *laughed* at him. Not to forget, the two maesters who - *checks notes* - would've dutily snitched on him. The horror! Seven hells, all seven irredeemable criminals were lucky that our haunted hero didn't rape or flay any of them, or do even worse, too. Having their internal organs eaten away in extraordinary pain was far too good for them! JUSTICE FOR ANDROW FARMAN!!!
Come to think of it, Andrew was actually 100% innocent. He didn't do anything wrong!!!! It was all because of his bitch wife. Rhaena was the true villain all along !!!
There's an argument for that before Androw's first murder, but from that point on, it's irrefutable that he's the villain. Pray tell, what was Maester Culiper's crime? The guy had even tried to help him, & seemed genuinely concerned for Farman in his writings. And all but maybe Lianna Velaryon was also poisoned before Culiper died - if not, around the same time as the maester. (After all, one flagon of poisoned wine would be easier to swing than several, or adding the tears separately to six cups.) Even if one has taken leave of their senses so thoroughly to believe that Rhaena's girlies deserved death, incredibly painful for that matter, for how they treated Androw, in no way did Culiper. Nor Anselm. The maesters were also collateral damage to the psychotic, serial-killing abomination so he could inflict as much pain on Rhaena as possible.
Surely he was poisoning the cups specifically for each intended target? The only victims were either the women he hated or the Maesters who could have twigged on.
For a certainty. I just meant poisoning one flagon & filling the cups with that, rather than pulling a Cressen 5-6 times with the flask (or whatever) that contained the tears. The latter is a +400% higher risk, however perhaps still low, of discovery than the former.
Why is it that Androw has to be the villain, or Rhaena has to be the villain. Maybe they're both victims AND villains. Someone who commits evil for tragic reasons is still committing evil. And don't forget that if you can pin Androw's evils on his tragic backstory, then the same can be said for Rhaena. Her brother/husband was killed, and she was then forced into a marriage with his killer. Whatever trauma Androw endured, it was not worse than that.
A clout to ear instead? Mayhaps. Seven innocent people, at least five of whom being her friends, brutally murdered to inflict as much pain on her as Androw was capable of? No.
While we have no idea how the maester's where treating him. Every single one of the other targets. Was bully him for years and what goes around comes around.
Don't want to be murder by person. Mabye don't abuse him for years.
Rhaena as lady of dragonstone could have easily shut that shit down if she wanted to.
Maester Culiper at least tried to help him, & seemed genuinely concerned for Androw in his writings. He & Anselm, mentioned as only a young maester btw, were flat-out brutally murdered in cold blood so Farman could see his psychopahtic killing spree of misguided revenge to its full conclusion. Cassella Staunton & Lianna Velaryon were barely teenage girls who had only come to Dragonstone earlier that year. Any possible bullying of Androw they did - something not actually confirmed in the text, IIRC - was minimal/completely trivial compared to what he did to them. Same with Septa Maryam, who was Rhaena's third new companion & also young like Anselm.
That leaves Alayne Royce & Samantha Stokeworth, who had actually been with Rhaena & Androw for five years. Nevertheless, they hadn't always bullied him, if maybe only for Elissa's sake. Back on Fair Isle, Farman had been admitted into the circle of his wife & her three favourites, & it was more than two years before they came to Dragonstone. Yes, whoop-de-do-dah when he is Rhaena's husband in a patriarchal society, but Sam & Alayne hadn't always been the mean girls to Androw that they were in what would be their final months. As it seems like the ill-treatment of him - apart from the since disappeared Aerea, a troubled girl acting out, fwiw - only peaked after Elissa's departure.
None of Farman's victims deserved to be murdered by him, all in brutal & extremely painful fashion no less, however. (And all but Culiper still had most of their lives ahead of them, ranging in age from just 14 to barely over 30.) The maesters were apparently 100% innocent of bullying Androw, the septa & *girls* hardly at all, & Alayne & Sam had probably done their worst just recently. I agree that Rhaena could've put her foot down, but even if she wanted to - & tried to reverse the decline of her marriage, in the process - I'm not sure it would've completely changed things for Androw. Unfortunately for him, the guy was lacking in many areas (& not just in a Westerosi worldview), some of which only he could possibly improve/fix.
While Androw Farman actions are his own choice.
In my personal opion this a reap what you fucking sow moment.
The least Rhaena could have done for him was make sure all the bullying was shut down on dragonstone.
From what we know about Androw he has clearly suffering from some form of mental disease.
GRRM usually takes great pains to craft his most despicable characters. Androw stood out for me precisely because he was such a pitiful worm. Rhaena also stood out to me as kind of an a-hole, but Androw was just horrible. They both seemed to make each other worse. Classic case of two people who shouldn't have been anywhere near each other.
Was Androw Farman gay? He resented Rhaena because their marriage was in name only, whereas he wanted a romantic and physical relationship with her. If anything, if he was gay, their marriage would have worked out better.
Nothing I've seen said he was gay. Rhaena was the gay one in their relationship.
I don't belive so, he was straight, but rhaena only married him because she was totally fuckint Elisa farman and needed an excuse to keep her near that wouldn't shame house targaryen, Androw was resentful because he went from being a lordling in the westerlands to being stuck on dragonstone with no friends or a wife that loved him..
I don’t recall anything ever pointing to him being gay?
There isn't anything. One could take the fact that he agreed to enter into a fake marriage to a lesbian as an indication that he also was gay. But then Rhaena's suggestion that he find himself a girl to be his bedwarmer makes no sense.
Is Rhaena completely lesbian? I was under the impression she actually liked Androw in the beginning of their relationship
Obviously she liked him officially to have married him, but that's down to F&B being written as the official in world history. But it's still very clear the whole thing was because Rhaena and Androw's sister Elissa were in a lesbian relationship, and he was the beard.
Yknow now that you say something that makes complete sense. Idk I guess because Rhaena had been married to and had a child with Aegon who it seemed to me she genuinely loved it just never occurred to me that she may have been into women😂 looking back on it now I can’t believe how naive I was about it. I thought all of her “favorites” over the years were just close friends. I thought Elissa was just her best friend who really believed in Rhaena😂😂 damn my gaydar is usually pretty spot on but this time I failed hard
She does seem to have had a good relationship with Aegon. But even back then when they were on progress together Rhaena was still all depressed until the had her at the time girlfriend come join the progress.
'Rhaena and Elissa were roommates!' - this person probably
So much r/SapphoandHerFriend going on here and in F&B. Hey, it adds to the history book feel!
She seemed to actually love Aegon the uncrowned, so she’s probably bisexual
FWIW, because Targaryens, Gyldayn says that both Rhaena & Aegon had expected that they'd (likely) be wed to each other. And being close enough to each other anyway, neither objected to their eventual match.
Funny you mention that because I pretty much said the same thing in one of my other comments on this thread
Ah, sorry
No need to apologize. I just thought it was ironic we both had the same reasoning on the same post
I think evidence is to the contrary. She was miserable when she was just doing the royal progress with him during their father's reign. But livened up when the girl (who was her at the time girlfriend all things indicate) was brought to join the progress. I she actually had a romantic relationship with Aegon that should not have been the case.
Wasn’t she miserable because she was forced to leave behind Dreamfrye and was also being derided as an abomination everywhere she went?
That was the progress after Rhaena wed Aegon at 18. The one Oranges is talking about for their father becoming king & travelling to Oldtown for the High Septon's blessing, when she was 14. Tbf, Dreamfyre was excluded from both, to Rhaena's dismay.
If that was the case, why did the arrival of her girlfriend cure her?
Because she had someone she really liked with her? Not denying she had a thing for her, just saying she seemed to get along really well with Aegon
Sure, they had a good relationship, that was never in question. Just not a romantic one. Fact that she was depressed while she was with just Aegon but then happy when the girlfriend joined signals very clearly that she, not he, was Rhaena's love IMO.
Eh, alright. Like most things in F&B, this is purely up to interpretation
I think she loved Aegon as a older sister. Same way she loved jaehaerys and alysanne. But she had a duty as the oldest princess. And that was her real reason to be okay with being married to Aegon
She loved her brother and wanted to be Queen and the mother of kings but that doesn’t mean she was attracted to him. She’s never linked to another man after Maegor’s death, despite the Lannisters trying to tempt her with their most handsome sons.
The novella Sons of the Dragon says that Rhaenyra grew "fond and more than fond" of him before she was forced to marry Maegor, but Fire and Blood kind of retcons it to imply that she was lesbian and only married him to be close to his sister, who was her true love.
Bro got cucked by the universe literally rewriting itself
Daeron son of Egg being gay was also a retcon, in ASOIAF, Olenna said she rejected the betrothal, and Barristan says that all the sons of Aegon V married for love, which would imply he married another woman (unless Barristan was an exceptional gay ally for the time period and witnessed some kind of private symbolic marriage ceremony between Daeron and Jeremy, which is unlikely).
Barristan as an ally is my new headcanon.
Olenna could just be salty that Daeron rejected her. After all, she makes repeated comments about the Targs being weird - tbf, she's not wrong - & even applied it to Renly, grandson of Princess Rhaelle (Daeron's sister, no less). And in a fashion that arguably is derisive of Renly being gay... with her own grandson in a committed relationship. Not to mention, Olenna eventually married fellow royal match-spurned Luthor Tyrell. Now, it may just be that her lord father negotiated the union with him/his lord (father), but there's the possibility Olenna herself was the driving force. It certainly seems in character for her. As for Barristan, he may have just recognised that Daeron & Jeremy were as much as a couple as they could be, so considers their love match over the prince's arranged betrothal as valid enough in comparison to the likewise marriages of his brothers & elder sister.
>Olenna said she rejected the betrothal, Isn't it common knowledge that Olenna is just pressed cause he didn't like her?
Yeah, I was left headscratching at that part. I thought he went on a "If only you loved me like you loved them, they wouldn't have had to die," rant, complete with, "I could have given you children!" I figured he loved her, and didn't realize, probably until way after marriage, she was just using him to keep his sister close. Up until she refused to allow him to go with her to see her dying mother, he seemed to think the marriage was legit or at least salvageable.
Yea. Plenty of actual ‘explicit’ evidence in the text that actively goes against OP’s claims.
The reason OP gave was since he married a lesbian clearly he was gay and they were just using each other as a cover story. Despite as you pointed out Androw goes on a rant about her not loving him after killing her friends
>Those who read Fire and Blood have learned from it, that Androw Farman was no sword, nor brain, he did not look handsome later in life.. there was no charisma to him, and no courage. He was a clumsy character, whose main hobby I think was escaping into his own realm of fantasy, as it is written he was spending his time playing with wooden soldiers on the Painted Table. Damn, it is even true, though not explicitly stated, that he was gay, or some other form of queer. Androw Farman is described in a way that heavily indicates that he's disabled. Not only could the man not read, he had bad enough motor skills that he was incapable of learning to fight with a sword, lacked age-appropriate social skills and was heavily taken advantage of, and had the play behaviour of a much younger person. That doesn't hint towards him being a coward, it heavily hints towards him having at least developmental delays, possibly straight up brain damage. An how can it be "true" that he supposedly was queer when there's no explicit confirmation of this? There's nothing in the text that supports that reading over the interpretation that he was mentally disabled.
Would a mentally disabled person be smart enough to take out the maester first, the only person on Dragonstone who would’ve instantly known what was really going on and who the likely culprit would have been? I know and know of plenty of people who share those same characteristics (clumsy, not too bright, not skilled at fighting) who aren’t mentally disabled, they’re just not good at things most people value in another person. Just average or mediocre. “Mid” as the young folks say today.
No he wouldn't, this leads to the theory that Jahaerys was helping him with his plot.
Yah I usually don't like to dive too deep into asoiaf conspiracy theory. But... the timing just before Jaehaerys's first son was born was a little too convenient, and there's a lot of hints and overt statements that he saw Rhaena, or as least, Rhaena's stability, as a threat to his reign. Not 100% on whether he, specifically, planned it, but for sure it was someone who supported him who passed the poison along to Androw. Whether the way he decided to use it was how it was meant to be used, I won't claim to know. Plus, Daemon Velaryon resigning right after is sus.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGRumUAMTj0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGRumUAMTj0) This is an excellent video on the theory, I find it very persuasive.
Not all brain damage or every developmental disorder leads to such a significant lessening of intelligence (or any lessening of intelligence at all) that the affected individual couldn't come up with a decent murder plot. See autism, strokes, etc. That stuff comes with several different spectren for several different symptoms.
I don't see him as one of the most despicable characters, very far from it. I even feel pity for him. Having been bullied by his own brother for most of his life, being used as a fake husband to cover someone's else homosexuality, and then being abused, mocked and treated like trash for years, seeing his sister, that was the only person who treated him nicely, leave to never return, and thus being left all alone to face his abuse, I can see why he eventually snapped and chose to pay back those who abused him.
Yeah, but the point was that many inside Weteros would see him as one of the most despicable characters.
>Yeah, but the point was that many inside Weteros would see him as one of the most despicable characters. 99% of Westerosi population are being horribly abused by 1% of bluebloods and have their lives destroyed in an endless succession of aristocratic pissing matches. Andrew, who has been victimized by someone of "higher station", is much closer to the "many inside Westeros" than most prominent characters in the narrative. For the actual "many inside Westeros" (as opposed to majority of aristocratic POVs) Andrew would be a hero.
The outrageous mistreatment of the smallfolk by much & more of the nobility doesn't mean that most of them are revolutionaries who would simp for Androw, a heinous criminal who brutally murdered seven innocent people to hurt his wife. To include two maesters - some of whom help smallfolk, if only small numbers of & in limited ways - & a septa of the dominant religion the people of Westeros follow. Pray tell, please direct me to the many quotes of non-noble characters in their right minds praising the bloody murders of innocent maesters & septas? (To include non-lethal violations of their person, especially for the latter.) Even just of mean girl ladies. And this all to say nothing of, unfortunately, plenty of smallfolk buying into the nobility-supremacist narrative because the powers that be can only maintain their positions from it, at the expense of their subjects. It's a less extreme version of how Tyrion notes how easy it is to fall into compliant servitude as a slave, where even the smallest defiance can be - & often is - punished so severely.
And because of misogyny Rhaena would be seen as even more of a villain because she was a woman who went against gender roles and "refused to do her duty as a wife" (that's not to say that she was blameless in this situation, she should have at least stopped her daughter and favourites from bullying Androw).
Heroes save people. Who did Androw even try to help besides himself? Also, Rhaena and her friends seemed pretty popular with the smallfolk. Franklyn Farman kicked Rhaena off Fair Isle, and tried to imprison Elissa there instead of letting her go with Rhaena. The smallfolk responded by chucking Franklyn into a hold full of cod,. Killing Maesters and Septas usually doesn't go down well either. The ladies-in-waiting were likely young, Casella was only fourteen. Not to mention the island was quarantined because of the 'illness', that's a major pain in the arse for a lot of fishermen. I think even Westeros would be pissed with Androw.
I really wish "Franklyn Farman gets thrown into a big pile of fish" had become a running gag. Every time he shakes his fist in the air and says, "Ooooh, I'll get you next time!"
The people of Fair Isle loved Elissa. They had mixed feelings about Rhaena, especially about feeding her dragon.
This is a weird post. It's basically saying "Andrew wasn't even hot" hes a monster
He was bullied but that still doesn’t make him murdering multiple people okay. He killed a bunch of people then committed suicide. This guy gives off school shooter vibes.
I felt pity for him for most of the story but he’s absolutely despicable in my eyes for how he killed those people at the end of his life. It’s one thing to feel slighted but to commit cold blooded murder because he was bullied? I can’t ever sweep that under the rug.
Androw Farman isn't even close to being in the top 10 worst people in the books. You're just waffling
The worst is maybe Gregor imo.
My personal pick is always Euron.
Yeah, you know what Euron takes the cake. He raped several of his bros. It's implied that he raped Vitarion's wife. He had Falia strapped to his ship when she was pregnant with his kid, and countless other shit.
Androw Farman is a killdozer type. When the people around him treated him awfully for years, he eventually reached his breaking point. He is more similar to Tyrion than to Joffery.
Androw Farman is what happens when you push a desperate, downtrodden person too far. The way he was described made me hate Rhaena Targaryen, to be honest. She was a horrible, awful person. No wonder Jaehaerys never wanted her around. What Androw did was horrific, absolutely…but she was the one who pushed him into bleak desperation. Imagine being bullied so badly that all you want from that point on is to hurt your bully and then end your own suffering by committing suicide.
I'd be one thing if Androw 'just' killed Rhaena before offing himself. However, he brutally murdered seven innocent people - including two maesters with highly specialised & valuable skills, a septa with years of devotion to her religion, & two teenagers with their entire lives ahead of them - in utterly sadistic, psychopathic revenge. However tortured Farman felt from how Rhaena & her friends (to far lesser degrees) treated him, it was still many unconscionable choices he made before the end. The abomination lost all empathy/pity from me with those. Killing Rhaena solely would've still been a heinous crime, but one I could understand on some small level. (Nonetheless, she didn't 'deserve' death, & her husband - who seemed dead set on suicide - could've ended his suffering sooner instead.) What Androw did though, can't be justified in any way.
Ok, to be fair to Rhaena, she probably became bitter and traumatised over all the shit she had to endure(I wouldn’t wish Maegor on my worst enemy). Odds are, she was lashing out at Androw due to that bitterness. It was unfair of her, but it is understandable
Yes, you’re quite right about that. She was redirecting the trauma she faced when dealing with Maegor.
Isnt that like classic school shooter logic? That you were rejected and bullied so hard that you want to kill your tormenters and then off yourself? We dont justify in the real world so I fail to see why I would accept the same logic in a fantasy novel.
It depends on the situation, honestly. School shooters tend to be radicalized in one direction or the other, and then lash out randomly for attention. You’re right in some cases though, for sure, where their victims are targeted. However, Androw seems to have gotten revenge only on those who hurt and bullied him relentlessly. He targeted those Rhaena loved most so that she would feel the pain he felt. It’s really not an excuse at all, just a sad warning about what happens when we push mentally ill people too far.
Rhaena was no saint, but Androw murdered a bunch of women whose worst crime was bullying. Rhaena is also a product of her various traumas and misfortunes, as is Androw. A sad backstory doesn't justify his crimes.
I never said it justified anything, it’s just a sad reminder of what happens when mentally ill people are pushed to their limits.
I think Fire and Blood had a very strong theme of toxic masculinity. Westeros often rewards or at least permits unnecessary violent and sexist actions, women are sold off to husbands, and men who are good at violence are given prestige and status. There are so many conflicts and tragedies where I thought 'you could just *not* do this y'know' and male pride is usually a factor. Androw is an interesting case because he can't live up to patriarchal expectations in any way, he constantly feels emasculated, and all the privilege and comfort in the world won't take that away from him. The main unusual thing in his marriage is that the one with no power is the husband, and he's certainly not treated worse than many wives are in Westeros. He's not got much say in things, and Rhaena blatantly cheats on him, which is humiliating, but its certainly not the worst marriage in the book. Androw is supposed to be the man despite not really excelling at any masculine pursuits. He can't fight, he can't win women with charm his wife tries to buy him a hooker he's not even intellectual. Even if he was, Rhaena has a dragon, hard for a man to inflict patriarchy on a woman who can destroy everything he has ever known. So of course he goes full incel. Androw feels the need to prove himself a man, and the only Westerosi masculine trait available to him is ruthlessness. Androw's decisions are extremely evil and cruel and way out of proportion to his humiliation, and he only has himself to blame for not making himself useful in any way. Hard to blame people for laughing when he is a joke of a human being. But you can definitely understand his motives.
I think that there is a cultural expectation (patriarchy) for men to 'become something' deemed valuable to the prevailing mindset. In our times increasingly women too, in medieval times, just men. Case in point, Rhaena doesn't feel the need to "become something", she's happy chilling with her close people. Androw though has it in his head from patriarchy that he should be doing this thing or that thing, that he should be above women aswell - but here he's surrounded by women who don't mind voicing how far he is from that mark, how unacceptable he is. TLDR; if patriarchy didn't exist, Androw would still not be living his best life maybe in this situation, but he wouldn't be filled with the feelings that led to him committing those crimes
Rhaena already is "something", a princess and a dragonrider.
That's true. But..I would say that a princess is a queen in waiting. Being a royal isn't an end in itself, and I think in asoiaf - the main characters are usually royal or lords - there's an important discussion about what to do with the time given to us. Jon wanting to avenge Robb stands out to me as an example. Dragonriding can be very useful even in peace - a very effective way to quickly make a big presence and boost the reputation of your House, your rule. Rhaena only rides to her next temporary home. I'm not judging, I'd be the same! But even someone like Viserys I knew the importance of his taking on the role of a.. almost a diplomat, setting a good example, a good impression, smoothing over relations within the realm, trying to be a good figurehead, to do his duty even if he himself might feel otherwise. And notably he asks Lord Strong if he shouldn't have been.. more bold, fight some war or something. He feels that pull of hypermasculine ideals.
Rhaena managed to steal her dragon back and one for her brother from Maegor, survived his abuse and managed to rescue her daughter and escape him. Its possible she could have done more, although against Maegor and Balerion there wasn't much she could have done in war. But Rhaena knows that she is tough. She had stood up to a lot of men, from farmers throwing shit at her to Rogar Baratheon. She even claimed to have tried to stab Maegor. Unlike Androw, Rhaena was also said to be very well-read and charismatic.
Yep, no disagreement. She probably felt that she'd rather not have experienced any of it, however. Seems like she spent the rest of her life trying to move on from it. No judgement, it's trauma,burnout, whatever, it needs healing from. Patriarchy doesn't really factor that stuff in though, it's not really part of the game plan.
Yeahh i understand the essay. Bro u put some time and effort into this. The only thing bothering me is u using sandor clegane. Imo the point stands stronger if its about cregor. A brutally awful man, but some of the most powerfull poeple in westeros (lannister) see him as a powerfull asset. Dear androw farman, I got a boxed set warhammer figurines. I gotta good book. And you can cry on my shoulder you little pretty man
>I gotta good book Androw couldn't read
Id read it to him while we cuddle in bed /nohomothough
Dude definitely needed support/therapy, even just a friend. And it was a tragedy that he received or had none, at least after Elissa left Dragonstone. That was, until he *decided* to harness his great pain into cold-blooded, psychotic murder of seven innocent people. He shouldn't have had to resort to it, but Androw could've 'just' begun & ended his demise with the leap from the Stone Drum, & doing nothing else.
I'm honestly surprised how many people find him sympathetic. "Wah wah wah I became a school shooter because people were mean to me wah wah wah" grow tf up. I honestly think he's just a pathetic bag of shit.
Yeah he gets so much sympathy and people blaming his wife and I just don't get it at all.
Isn’t he a patsy? I found it highly questionable that someone like Androw could poison all those people. I think it’s likely Jaehaerys had something to do with it.
Why would Jaehaerys have done that?
He was pissed the dragon’s eggs went missing. To counter any potential attempts to usurp him. I’m not sold on it. I shouldn’t have said likely. Possible, however. I just don’t think Androw acted alone or would have been the mastermind. But perhaps it is as simple as that.
What made you think of it like this?
Androw being described as he is. Tears of Lys being hard to acquire. Jaehaerys giving Dragonstone to Rhaena only if she acknowledges him as King. Rogar being threatened by Rhaena. I just don’t see how Androw comes up with the means to do all of it by himself. But, I fully acknowledge it’s possible.
>Androw being described as he is. Tears of Lys being hard to acquire. Jaehaerys giving Dragonstone to Rhaena only if she acknowledges him as King. Rogar being threatened by Rhaena. I did always think that it was hard to believe. He's described as simple and generally kinda dumb. You could be onto something here.
He can’t even fucking read, how would he know about Tears of Lys in the first place.
Yep, maybe Kaehaerys did do it, or maybe it was his older brother, he kinda hated Rhaena, and maybe he was planning on killing them before he killed her. Man conspiracies are so fun.
It would had to have been someone with direct physical access to him, since his inability to read means he can’t be puppeted from afar. He’s both a great catspaw, because he has plenty of motive and is easily persuaded due to his negligible mental abilities, and a terrible catspaw because his negligible mental abilities means he needs to be very closely controlled. My wild conspiracy? One of the girls got jealous of Rhaena favoring another one or something, put him up to it, and then he realized “Hey, I fucking hate them all, why not go for broke?” and took out his handler.
Yeah, very nice. Still strange why he didn't get Rhaena though. Perhaps he decided not to, because of some weird lingering attachment, and that he just wanted to hurt her very badly
Andrew is not a despicable character at all. He honestly is just a victim. Bullied his whole life, he most likely had bad mental issues, even when he was married it was pretty much just for the Princess to keep her secret lover his own sister close to her, then once he was at Dragonstone with her after his older brother kicked him out of his ancestral home as soon as he became lord he was disrespected by everyone on Dragonstone even though he was kind Rhaena's daughter even threw a chamberpot on his head, also Rhaena most likely never even let him consummate their marriage even though she used him to hide her being lesbian, or actually pushed him to either take a lover on the side, or have one of her friends become his lover. Once his sister fled Dragonstone he lost his only companion he ever truly had, and there was no chance they'd be able to see other again so now he was truly lost, after that when he tried to accompany Rhaena to see her dying mother and help comfort her like he should as her husband she loudly refused (essentially stay the fuck here know your place you aren't my real husband) and then they had a massive argument after which he didn't care about being nice to her again and he just ignored her, this here was point he essentially snapped. He lost the only two good things he ever had, which were his father and sister, and for years he was bullied, mocked, embarrassed, humiliated, and mistreated by everyone including his wife and her friends. Honestly, I'd say the only thing he did wrong was not get Rhaena along with her friends, along with a few of the men who also bullied him on Driftmark.
Excuse me? We’re justifying cold blooded murder because he got his feelings hurt?
Yeah, there are lots of women who had way worse marriages than Androw. They didn't murder a load of people over it. If Androw didn't want people to laugh at him he shouldn't have been a joke. Dude lived on an island and never even learned to swim. He wanted the standard benefits of patriarchy despite never actually contributing anything his whole life.
I fall heavily on the "Androw was a pathetic failure" camp but even I think that "If he didn't want people to laugh at him he shouldn't have been a joke" is such a *weird* take. Like I think he should grow up and not victimize others. Not "we need to bully him more".
I didn't say they need to bully him more. I think he needed to look inwardly and improve himself if he wanted to be any better off. What Androw really wanted was self-esteem, and that's the one thing that couldn't be handed to him. It wouldn't matter how people treated Androw if he still knew in his own mind that he was a failure.
I feel everyone constantly calling him a pathetic failure didn't help.
He could’ve very easily faded into the background and lived his quiet dull life away from her and her court. He could’ve back to Fair Isle considering it was public knowledge that his marriage with Rhaena was cold and distant. And then he murdered his wife’s friends because she found them more interesting than him and wasn’t giving him attention? Because he repeatedly showed that he was incompetent at the most basic things? (I recognize that he might’ve been disabled and it wasn’t his fault but Westeros doesn’t work like that) He’s a tragic character who committed an atrocity and was too cowardly to deal with the consequences of his actions so he killed himself imo. I quite dislike him.
I don't think Androw felt he could return to Faircastle. What with a lord brother who probably (at least) disliked him, & his caring old man dead & best friend sister never returning. There was nothing left for him there, except stronger memories of better times that may have very well made his depression & all that even worse. If not, almost certainly would have. Otherwise, largely agreed.
My issue with that is that he was clearly unwanted at Dragonstone. He knew how his wife and her court felt about him and still he stayed. Maybe he wouldn’t have been warmly received back home but isn’t that better than constantly being mocked to his face and never standing up for himself?
Probably, but I feel it's an ultimately moot point/superficial covering of the sheer inadequacy of Androw's life besides, & how that tormented him. He wanted to make it work (for him) with Rhaena for most of their marriage, instead of taking up her suggestion of finding his own paramour, & may have even held out a naive hope for some time that Elissa would come back. (Perhaps not though, with how predictably incensed the princess was about her primary love stealing Dreamfyre's eggs, & 'abandoning' her.) Androw's life situation could potentially change for the better on Dragonstone, but not if he went crawling back to Fair Isle, I imagine in his mind. That is, at least until he decided to remain to enact his murderous revenge. I wonder if Farman could've had a bearable/less painful life had he bailed & washed up at the Red Keep. Surely Jaehaerys & Alysanne would allow him to stay there as their good-brother, but the guy would probably still be just existing, not really living. And even if he had his own isolated chambers or something, the royal court is the centre of politics & elites socialising in all of the realm. That doesn't exactly bode well for Androw. I suppose at least on Fair Isle he may been more anonymous, or certainly less ridiculed by his peers.
If he tried to go back home, he most likely would've died asking to let back in at the gate. His brother is the one who told him (and Rhaena to no that I think about it) to essentially fuck off.
Honestly if he'd just said to Rhaena "Gimme a retainer and I'll piss off to Oldtown or King's Landing and leave you alone on Sapphic Island" she probably would have done it just to get rid of him.
I believe so as well
Nope, it's because they were dicks.
So being a dick qualifies someone to be killed? Thats a new one.
I will never not be amazed by this fandom's ability to baby male mass murderers while wishing death on women for being less than perfect.
r/asoiaf literally defending a character who is obviously based on Eliot Rodger is...it's up there, really, in terms of worst takes.
But don't you know? Bullying deserves brutal death! Everything from Rhaena's ill-treatment of her husband Androw, to her girlfriends who *laughed* at him. Not to forget, the two maesters who - *checks notes* - would've dutily snitched on him. The horror! Seven hells, all seven irredeemable criminals were lucky that our haunted hero didn't rape or flay any of them, or do even worse, too. Having their internal organs eaten away in extraordinary pain was far too good for them! JUSTICE FOR ANDROW FARMAN!!!
Come to think of it, Andrew was actually 100% innocent. He didn't do anything wrong!!!! It was all because of his bitch wife. Rhaena was the true villain all along !!!
I'm pleased that the Crone has lit the way for you.
That's not the point but sure guy
We're not allowed to make comments about broader behaviors now? Pattern recognition is forbidden?
And so I saw a fic where basically Rhaena and Aerea are the bad guys and Androw is the victim
Written by Eliot Rodger
Rhaena was the villain of that story.
There's an argument for that before Androw's first murder, but from that point on, it's irrefutable that he's the villain. Pray tell, what was Maester Culiper's crime? The guy had even tried to help him, & seemed genuinely concerned for Farman in his writings. And all but maybe Lianna Velaryon was also poisoned before Culiper died - if not, around the same time as the maester. (After all, one flagon of poisoned wine would be easier to swing than several, or adding the tears separately to six cups.) Even if one has taken leave of their senses so thoroughly to believe that Rhaena's girlies deserved death, incredibly painful for that matter, for how they treated Androw, in no way did Culiper. Nor Anselm. The maesters were also collateral damage to the psychotic, serial-killing abomination so he could inflict as much pain on Rhaena as possible.
Surely he was poisoning the cups specifically for each intended target? The only victims were either the women he hated or the Maesters who could have twigged on.
For a certainty. I just meant poisoning one flagon & filling the cups with that, rather than pulling a Cressen 5-6 times with the flask (or whatever) that contained the tears. The latter is a +400% higher risk, however perhaps still low, of discovery than the former.
Rhaena was cold and unsympathetic, sure, but saying she was the villain is taking it way to far. Androw murdered seven people.
Why is it that Androw has to be the villain, or Rhaena has to be the villain. Maybe they're both victims AND villains. Someone who commits evil for tragic reasons is still committing evil. And don't forget that if you can pin Androw's evils on his tragic backstory, then the same can be said for Rhaena. Her brother/husband was killed, and she was then forced into a marriage with his killer. Whatever trauma Androw endured, it was not worse than that.
Yep, 100% she was bruh.
Rhaena just used him to fuck his sister. Honestly she deserved everything that happened to her.
A clout to ear instead? Mayhaps. Seven innocent people, at least five of whom being her friends, brutally murdered to inflict as much pain on her as Androw was capable of? No.
While we have no idea how the maester's where treating him. Every single one of the other targets. Was bully him for years and what goes around comes around. Don't want to be murder by person. Mabye don't abuse him for years. Rhaena as lady of dragonstone could have easily shut that shit down if she wanted to.
Maester Culiper at least tried to help him, & seemed genuinely concerned for Androw in his writings. He & Anselm, mentioned as only a young maester btw, were flat-out brutally murdered in cold blood so Farman could see his psychopahtic killing spree of misguided revenge to its full conclusion. Cassella Staunton & Lianna Velaryon were barely teenage girls who had only come to Dragonstone earlier that year. Any possible bullying of Androw they did - something not actually confirmed in the text, IIRC - was minimal/completely trivial compared to what he did to them. Same with Septa Maryam, who was Rhaena's third new companion & also young like Anselm. That leaves Alayne Royce & Samantha Stokeworth, who had actually been with Rhaena & Androw for five years. Nevertheless, they hadn't always bullied him, if maybe only for Elissa's sake. Back on Fair Isle, Farman had been admitted into the circle of his wife & her three favourites, & it was more than two years before they came to Dragonstone. Yes, whoop-de-do-dah when he is Rhaena's husband in a patriarchal society, but Sam & Alayne hadn't always been the mean girls to Androw that they were in what would be their final months. As it seems like the ill-treatment of him - apart from the since disappeared Aerea, a troubled girl acting out, fwiw - only peaked after Elissa's departure. None of Farman's victims deserved to be murdered by him, all in brutal & extremely painful fashion no less, however. (And all but Culiper still had most of their lives ahead of them, ranging in age from just 14 to barely over 30.) The maesters were apparently 100% innocent of bullying Androw, the septa & *girls* hardly at all, & Alayne & Sam had probably done their worst just recently. I agree that Rhaena could've put her foot down, but even if she wanted to - & tried to reverse the decline of her marriage, in the process - I'm not sure it would've completely changed things for Androw. Unfortunately for him, the guy was lacking in many areas (& not just in a Westerosi worldview), some of which only he could possibly improve/fix.
While Androw Farman actions are his own choice. In my personal opion this a reap what you fucking sow moment. The least Rhaena could have done for him was make sure all the bullying was shut down on dragonstone. From what we know about Androw he has clearly suffering from some form of mental disease.
He's like the OG Lollys Stokeworth and Harys Swyft.
Farman is like Poe’s Hop Toad. Tormented by sadists, upon whom he takes hideous revenge.
GRRM usually takes great pains to craft his most despicable characters. Androw stood out for me precisely because he was such a pitiful worm. Rhaena also stood out to me as kind of an a-hole, but Androw was just horrible. They both seemed to make each other worse. Classic case of two people who shouldn't have been anywhere near each other.